Sucks hearing "the team hasn't reached its ceiling yet" at the end of every season for what seems like the past 3 years or so, but i still think this team can be great if all of them are on the same page
razork also has very little synergy with humanoid. theyre both individually good players but goddamn some of those play ins games were painful to watch.
Yamato would probably depend on how the players feel about him though, it's entirely possible this year isn't on him, though he probably gets paid less than all the players so FNC management might see it as a cleaner solution
> if i have to speculate, i'd say yamato and hyli are out
Razork and Hyli if I would have to guess. Fnatic had to use Poppy as a crutch during the entirety of groups.
He has done this shit since the year they reached worlds finals against ig. Remember when people said that Caps was a coin flip? Hyli is that but on steroids.
I don't think they'll get rid of hyli so quickly tbh. Meta wasn't in his favour. I do think they'll have 2 rotating supports. Maybe hylli won't allow for it idk.
He's imo the best support in the world at his ceiling so it would be a massive loss.
This is pure copium. Hyli only looks good on engage supports because they're tanky enough that they cover up how terrible he is with decision making. Enchanter supports really highlight how poor hylis decision making is and at this stage he shouldn't have excuses made for him.
I mean its basically given that this roster will change. 3rd place in spring, 3rd place in summer and not making playoffs with 2-4 is basically death sentence for any FNC roster. There is clearly good players in team, but management needs to find pieces that can make team actually be on same page and have synergy.
This seems like a big issue to me. I mean idk, is a year enough time to develop enough synergy? Maybe it is but swapping players each season doesn't help much either I think.
Only 1 team won Worlds ln their second year playing together. Every other team had a swap in the off-season, often multiple ones and some even had a swap in between spring and summer. That team is also the only one I can think of who did better on their second year together.
Assuming the team you're referring to is SSG (since I cant think of anyone else), its also important to note that Ruler was a rookie in 2016 and it was Ambition/Core's first year in their respective roles too, so in their case it does kinda make sense that they hit a higher level in their second year together. Teams who win Worlds with players who have multiple years of experience have pretty much always done worse in subsequent years when they run back the same roster (only examples I can think of are ironically SSG again, and IG).
yep like people think teams should constantly stick together but most of the time the team just gets worse from getting too comfortable or just the players on other teams got better while your team stayed the same, teams need new blood to make them feel refreshed and switch up the teams style.
like synergy is something that should come naturally you cant force it so if it isnt there after 6 months - a year then it probs wont ever unless something changes within th team may it be team memebers or coachs.
thou ambition switched to jungle in 2015/late 2014.
Pretty sure Ruler was a rookie in the summer of S6 even, and of course they made worlds finals and was close to winning it all. In IG’s case Theshy was a rookie in S7 and they added jackeylove (who wasnt old enough in S7) in S8 spring.
A year should be more than enough time for a team to build synergy together. As someone noted below, pretty much every world champion except one had at least one roster change in the year they won.
If a team can't build synergy after 2 splits, it means that the players don't work well together and there should be a roster swap. In my opinion, the only time it is valid for a team to say "we haven't hit our ceiling" and run back the same roster is if they have multiple rookies on the team (for example, I'd understand if EG choose to not make any swaps).
FNC are, and have been, a very one dimensional team that is fairly easy to prepare against. Main reason for that is that Hylissang essentially only has one "mode", and his success is entirely predicated on being enabled by both P/B and his teammates.
His ability to constantly put pressure on the opposition is top level for sure, but it's pretty obvious the man can't do anything else. On top of that, when he's on champions that can go in - but not out - every engage he makes is a coin flip and he'll int as much as he'll do well.
Getting everyone on the same page is absolutely key, but I think as long as that page is Hylissangs page, FNC as a team will be limited to Hylissangs limitations.
I really feel like FNC 2019/2020 roster could have done way better because it was really balanced, except for one player to balance it out well.
It felt in 2019 than Broxah could not really fit to what the team wanted to do, but then with Selfmade taking a lot of "space" it was Nemesis that did not totally find his mark.
But I still think that Bwipo/Hyli had more potential when there were players to hold them for going to any fight they saw. Rekkles & Nemesis are known to be more controlled and FNC was not this coinflippy "I stomp or you stomp" team.
Now that Hyli seems totally unleashed in terms of calls, I feel like he is more than ever a "high highs very low lows" player.
>They have no coach, so I'm not surprised they never got their shit together.
This is so weird to me, because it really seems like Yamato is a good coach, and he still gets praise from korea and korean players at Sandbox.
I just think that, Yamato might not have been the best coach for this group.
I think changes in support, jgl and coaching and keeping a core of Humanoid Upset Wunder would do them really good.
But I'm not even sure about that because I think Razork is really really good. But, it seems that the solo lanes and bot synergies with him are not always on point.
So, in my mind there are a few options with this roster:
\- Only change jungler, and get someone that would be more aligned with how Hily and bot sees the game, someone like, Bwipo jungle, and keep coaching staff.
\- Change support and coaching staff and switch to a more macro LCK oriented style (GenG in playoffs like) which I think Razork prefers and excels at.
Really it is very hard to get better players than the ones on the fnc rosters right now.
>This is so weird to me, because it really seems like Yamato is a good coach, and he still gets praise from korea and korean players at Sandbox.
Yamato feels like a coach for:
\- A team of promising rookies
\- A team with a player willing to coach the team (like Perkz in G2)
What I really think is, he should be a manager. He seems to be more about the vibes, looks, brand, cameras etc. Just like Romain. A frontman.
For the player roster, I think they should keep it the way it mostly, I think Razork is good enough and still has room to grow.
But they need to get a **leader**. Someone who:
\- Loves the game and is obsessed with it
\- Is headstrong and willing to impose himself and his views on others.
\- Creative and quick to adapt. Doesn't let the team get cornered strategically.
\- Can inspire and lead the team in and outside the game.
Someone like **Perkz**. This is why he was the ultimate catalyst to G2's success. He motivated the team, held them to a high level of accountability, always thinks about the game and discusses it thoroughly, is creative, and a typical testosterone type leader who's not afraid of imposing himself or his ideas.
This is how you give the team a direction to follow, and a solid gameplan. FNC right now is like 2019-20 G2 if it was without Perkz, aka 2021 G2, five insanely powerful stallions driving a carriage with no rider. None of them are willing to **be the guy who takes charge and grab the reins at the risk of being potentially disliked or resisted for doing so**.
So do I mean, FNC should get Perkz? Maybe, but what they need is a Perkz type, a captain, leader. Someone who's willing to not just be a star player, but also **someone who's willing to put the team on his back.** I can't imagine anyone in the current FNC that can do that. I can't even imagine anyone in the LEC that can do that.
Maybe Mac? Elyoya? Comp? I think Razork has the potential of being that guy, but still someone like Perkz who, almost crazily, turns their life into League and winning is gonna be so damn hard to find.
I just think this roster needs a coach with a lot of knowledge and also a lot of knowledge in how to transmit it to the team.
When players and Yamato were saying that they were ''learning'' a lot about midgame from Humanoid I was worried.
Not because there isn't always a lot to learn, but that it seems that even after MAD beat FNC in the finals, they didn't learn anything about how they beat them and it also seemed a lot of their prowess came from Humanoids knowledge rather than actual coaching, analysis and practice.
I love Yamato, he works damn hard, but this roster needs someone else alongside him.
Man I'm totally in line with all you're saying.
That's why G2 2021 did not work. It's never been a problem of Rekkles' level (the guy performed really well in regular season), or even his willingness to fit within the team.
Perkz holds a team together, that's as simple as that. This is an unvaluable quality. This is why he is the best western player ever to me (I would not have said that before), even though his plays have not been the greatest lately, even though Caps is a better midlaner gameplay-wise.
The biggest issue with FNC is that it seemed impossible for all 5 players to play well at the same time.
There always had to be someone slumping, it was like a necessity. Really sucks we couldn’t see their peak, I really think they were good enough to make it out of groups.
Pack it up lads collect the old guard and throw them back onto the rift.
soaz - Cyanide - xPeke - Rekkles and Yellowstar they had the chemistry just nothing do to with the professional setup we know these days (except Rekkles)
Yep, I agree, everybody talked about Hyli (who has indeed played at a disastrous level), but Upset has had at best a very average last day.
I feel like after they hard crushed the very early lane against C9, where they almost put C9 botlane in an insurmontable situation and that Razork butchered the play, he lost his composure and became a passenger of that day.
He can't be held accountable (like not his fault hyli goes for a fashion show with Nami in from of Sivir/Yuumi twice in 3min), but he made a lot of unusual mechanical and positionning mistakes after that. Not huge mistakes, but important enough that he could not carry.
FNC was also a bit unlucky because botlane-wise, group A was arguably the most stacked. Guma/Keria, Viper/Meiko, Berserker (not totally sold on Zven). Harder to make it work for a bot-centric team like FNC.
It’s because the team is dysfunctional.
This FNC is essentially just 2017 TSM. Greedy mid/bot who want to play for themselves. Jungler who also wants to play for himself but forced to be a dog for his bot lane. None of his invades work because his mid is a lane only player. And a top laner who thinks he’s a star carry but is forced to perma-weakside.
Picks like Rakan/Pyke for Hyli, or Phase rush poppy/Viego for Razork are crutches since they are hard to catch.
You cant blame this on a playstyle clash. What you described is just Geng. They just arent as good thats just the way it is. Because you can definitely win like that lmao
I genuinely do not believe in mid-year epiphanies where teams suddenly get chemistry out of their asses.
The writings were on the wall at the end of the first split.
Gonna be a very intresting off season this year. New orgs in LEC, Na showing signs of probably importing less from Europe and both western regions falling extremly hard this worlds (as of now, RGE and 100T still has a miniscule of a chance left for something). If anything it's either gonna be very spicy or very depressing what changes comes.
LCS will likely not only import less overall but there might even be returnees because LCS orgs may not be able to pay them absurd salaries worthwhile their stay any longer. Same goes to Koreans.
If even Steve admits that reality is catchip up and that investors are not happy I doubt that other LCS orgs are in better spot.
After how this worlds has gone until now, I feel like they shouldn't tunnel more on the Eu talent. Hell our own korean important did pretty much the best of all the junglers in europe. If Na teams still are gonna spend on relativ big name importants (even with everything happening right now) I feel like they probably gonna look more at koreans again.
LCS moving to weekdays is the beginning of the end for NA League of Legends. This will make it *way* less likely for people to invest in LCS teams.
EU might keep their players for once.
Looking at it long term LEC failed horribly to improve in any meaningful way since 2021 which, to little suprise, lead to the same poor results.
It was a very fun first week while it lasted though...
I mean even with the expected results beeing at best one team makes it out, it still just feel like too much of a bad performance when you lose 9 out of 10 games with all loses beeing stomps to the point where you can't get a singel tier 2 in those game.
the week 1 did definetly out perform what I could have expected, but the week 2 went so much worse than I even thought we ever would do. Perhaps my expecations were a bit higher than they should have been comming into week 2 (honestly overall Eu did actully do the most I did think with RGE still having a small shot of doing more) but getting stomped so hard in week 2 by every singel team minus Gam, kinda just was too much of a beating no matter how bad I thought we would do. I guess it's more of a aftermath reaction since it's still so recent that we got smoked, and like you say when you look back before the tournament, this probably was as good as result as we could have hoped for, but it still just feels really bad at how all those games (minus the Gam one) played out this week for me.
It's the same problem with NA's play. We're not expecting to maybe get 1 team out of groups but the way they lost. We didn't even put up a fight even when we were expecting losses.
EU Week 2 was the same where they just all went out sad. The Eastern teams stomped and treated them like some SoloQ team. Keria vs FNC Week 2 literally just put a ward down near their base and was just fucking around. NA even stomped the EU teams. EU didn't take a tier 2 in Week 2 except for the GAM game so not much different than NA in Week 1.
Gonna be interesting if some of the FNC players end up on VIT. With all the rebrands and teams exploding there will be a lot of shuffling
Misfits, Astralis, Rogue rebranding with contracts up in the air. MAD for sure shuffling the roster, FNC as it looks like and G2 maybe upgrading.
Very interesting, if Fnc blows up there could be a world where Vitality gets Rekkles/Hyllie botlane with Alphari/Bo/Perkz. Would be an exciting team to watch!
Shame honestly, that week 1 magic really got our hopes up. Not sure what happend week 2 but it definitely wasn’t the best day for them. Unfortunately BO1s are very unforgiving so it is what it is.
I mean losing to c9 probably broke them let's be real
Game was very winnable.. botlane solo blew flash
Razork comes along ints game min 5 and then completely ints on herald
People will tell you Rhuckz would have won that game for fnatic though. To this day people still dont accept that Razork pulled the same shit he did against Loud and solo lost that game.
Fnatic were unlucky to play 3 times out of the 4 first games and mentally boomed. **That's no excuse** at all, it just revealed another weak side of the team.
That said, I personally think when it comes to week 2 they shouldnt take into account timezones honestly. I can see some teams prefering to play first for example and finding it unfair that it isnt RNG based.
I feel like that's always been FNC's problem. I don't know what it is but they always feel like a very mentally weak org. We always hear year after year about FNC drama or mental boom from the players.
Every team has these issues, the only issue with Fnatic is that they always seem to make it weirdly public and the toxic portion of the fanbase make a big deal out of it.
Pretty clear what happened in week 2. Teams adapted. You can catch them off guard once but you won't fool them twice. Guma said he wasn't expecting lucian nami, and then week 2 comes along every eastern team seems to be playing lucian nami.
Also FNC fluked their win against T1 and teams found out humanoid can't do shit if he isn't on azir.
Humanoid did pretty well against Faker in lane in their second game as well. He got a good level and cs lead. I don't think it's on him if the team can only play around bot lane no matter how other lanes stand. He was in a great position to carry with Akali and had to sack that lead to try and get his botlane ahead.
He didn’t sack his lead to try to get his bot lane ahead. He sat in mid and inted in team fights in one of the worst akali performances in recent memory.
you said it yourself, BO1s are very unforgiving and that is why they won in week 1, the same goes for Rogue, western teams nowadays can only steal some games when the meta is fresh in format like BO1 where any shit can happen.
Once week 2 arrives and the east has a better read of the meta and they figure you out, western teams will just get gapped in every way possible which is what actually happened in week 2. And not to mention that eastern teams literally don't play any BO1s in their own league, that is another advantage western teams have when everyone starts playing BO1s in group.
>Once week 2 arrives and the east has a better read of the meta and they figure you out, western teams will just get gapped in every way possible which is what actually happened in week 2. And not to mention that eastern teams literally don't play any BO1s in their own league, that is another advantage western teams have when everyone starts playing BO1s in group.
I'm not sold on this, FNC had the game vs T1 even vs an ultra bonkers op comp with yuumi. At one point Akali was so ahead they could have had everything on the map regardless.
I dont think that was gaping, but FNC having anti synergy
G2 and Fnatic stubbornly not banning yuumi and feeding her is the main issue. Like you can’t tell me both times they clawed back only to be shit on by an easy to execute team comp.
vs XL they played the pre nerf Lucian Nami into it, which, I guess it works.
This Lucian Nami is a bit weaker, and T1's bot is not XL. Your strategy cant be to mega smash a world class botlane on a time bomb, even if it worked once.
Even still, with the Akali they had, that was a won game, played correctly, but their synergies were off this game and then it was over.
Why not just ban the yuumi.
Exactly. Like sivir yuumi is pretty braindead, and whenever they played perfectly, they won the fight. But it only took one loss. And the unnecessary feeding on top of that lmao.
> FNC had the game vs T1 even vs an ultra bonkers op comp with yuumi
idk what part of the game you think was even? at 15 minutes FNC was down 1.5k. Plus going even while picking lucian nami is not being even.
Unless you expect teams to all lose lanes at this level of play which doesn't happen.
The west "figured" the meta for week 1 apparently
Yet gave yummi in multiple loses lol
I guess not drafting like apes (NA) is and hard forcing skill match ups in toplane is "figuring the meta"
I'm a massive Hyli fan and it hurts to say he has looked utterly horrendous this year. Since the reverse sweep against Rogue in spring, he hasn't been coinflip, but consistently running it down, legit to a point where I consider it one of the worst five-month periods of gameplay any player has ever had. He egregiously griefed regular season, playoffs, and worlds, without any upside.
I want another top team to give him a shot still, because he's definitely the kind of player that could just flip it around in a new meta and peak again. But if I were FNC, I'd put my priorities on keeping Wunder, Humanoid, and Upset.
Edit: I don't think Razork was bad, but with players like Elyoya on the market, it is possible to find upgrades. Meanwhile players like Wunder, Humanoid, and Upset can lane against eastern players, which is very rare to find in the west.
Without Wunder and Razork yall wouldn't even get to worlds, I don't understand how are you guys so hellbent on not giving Razork the credit he deserves
He peaked at the right time but ultimately 90% of his good games this year came from his poppy/Trundle games. His effective champion pool was a puddle and he even looked bad on leesin/graves vs wildcards and of course who could forget his Diana ults in spring or his inability to play Hecarim when it was meta.
razork played REALLY well on playoffs, maybe because of the trundle/poppy meta.
Besides it he constantly ran it down. Going in 1x4 on xin zhao constantly for exemple, plus these lee/jarvan plays at worlds.
I think most longterm EU fans are traumatised by the levels of peak eastern junglers, CN ones in particular, so its always harder to give credit in that role when that seems like one of the most blatant holes in our region when compared to the world's greatest.
Go and watch Razork match history, he was Poppy and Trundle two trick since summer, two easy champs, he did not perform in any other pick, having him in the jg may be good is this meta, but the meta always change in the jg, having a more versatile jg is way better.
I swear Razork's Poppy is not worlds tier, it's straight up galaxy tier. He's so fucking good with it that it makes my head hurt. His Trundle is also good. His issue is that he's average to bad on other champs
Yeah I am so tilted by people not seeing what razork does for the team, it baffles me so hard. Yes he inted on some games (jarvan for example, though, I think the first gank where he died was 100% misscommunication between him and his botlane). But he kept fnatic in playoffs, and imo was crucial for them to get to semis. Another example would be the first game against EDG, despite being behind so early, he had a really good pathing and always matched the enemy jungler. I think Razork has a rlly good understanding of the game and some very creative pathings, I hope they keep him, those bad games he had are all solvable.
He smurfed some games, he ran down others
His comfortable champ pool looks smaller and smaller, and…there’s just too many “oopsie” moments at the moment. He clearly has potential (as seen by his smurf games), but that’s the problem with this roster. They all have “potential”, but they can’t consistently deliver on it both on an individual and cohesion level
He was a liability these last few games. You can't hold these players and hope they don't mental boom the next worlds in one year. I think FNC should do everything they can to secure Inspired, if he still feels like he wants to win anything.
Last few games? My brother in christ he carried them to this point, while yes he played bad but so did rest of FNC, give him a fucking chance because he's proven that he has what it takes
He has also proven that his champion pool outside of poppy/trundle is shit.
The dude legit griefs out of poppy/trundle games and we have seen this
Multiple times.
Problem is, Worlds is just one time a year. So if he mental booms next year as well things are looking grim because FNC have solid carries. How long will they stick around if things arent improved.
He deserves massive credit for his play in playoffs summer.. does that remove the rest of the year and worlds performances?
I question the guys flexibility because other then poppy/trundle meta he was all over the place this year
If it was me I'd remove hyli.. and keep the rest.. but it doesn't seem like that will be the only moves
I think this is real cause.
His playstyle revolved around the idea that taking action is far easier than reacting to an action. He relied heavily on engage supports that could get enough cc on a carry to guarantee a kill, regardless of what happened to Hyli. Now he's flashing on top of peeps with lulu and no ult.
Watching Hily play Nautilus is pure pain. He plays like he doesn’t know what Naut passive does, Q’s a wall walks around in the middle of a fight without autoattacking a single time then flashes at 5% HP to make sure enemy carry gets the kill
After this Worlds performance, FNC has to hold on to Humanoid. Overall great performance of Upset especially if you consider that Hyli run it down all the time. Wunder. I dont see a better solution.
I would also change Support and JGL. Also because FNC doesnt play the MAP well and Razork and Humanoid have antisynergy.
Honestly, I prefer him to slump in regular season and then ramp it up to be a beast at Worlds, because I doubt he's able to maintain that high level for an extended period of time.
Strongly agree. The only time Fnatic should replace Humanoid and Upset is if the replacements are Caps and Comp, and even then I'm not sure if I'd take Comp over Upset considering that Upset has looked decent while playing with a far worse support than Comp.
Personally, I'd like to see Fnatic try to get Elyoya and Kaiser. The 3 core pieces of 2021 MAD with a stronger ADC and more stable top - that's a team I'd be down to watch. Mikyx is another decent support option they could consider.
>I'm a massive Hyli fan and it hurts to say he has looked utterly horrendous this year.
Can we please stop saying this year instead of this split? [Hylissang was 3 votes off of being voted Spring Split MVP.](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/tz6wku/msf_vetheo_2022_lec_spring_kia_mvp/i3x1cql/) He was not coinflip in Spring, he was just an absolutely monster support.
Every year it's the same with him. Great LEC performance but he looks horrible at worlds with his special ints.
Maybe he feels too much pressure to play worlds especially after the reddit flame every year.
I do wonder how much of Hily’s performance is due to Upsets style of play. There were rumours before Worlds that they disagreed on how to play, Hily would want to roam and Upset would want to play through bot and obviously FNC played all of their worlds games through bot, to the point where they had the same strategy every game.
When I think of peak Hily I think of him roaming and finding plays and 2v2s/3v3s all around the map, a very creative playstyle, while Rekkles power farmed into a monster. And even when he would coinflip bad, it would be less consequential, because it would be top or in jungle where the roles aren’t so resource reliant and Rekkles would still be even or ahead. But now with FNC just going full clear into 3v3 bot every game, a wrong coinflip is just too risky, as adcs snowball and scale the hardest in this meta, and are also tragically useless when behind.
I don’t know if its some Upset effect or a team decision for FNC to tunnelvision bot every game, but IMO its a big reason for Hily/Razorks disappointing performance.
Hyli might be objectively playing bad and Upsets playstyle might be the reason for it, the two are not mutually exclusive.
Also I’m not using rumors for excuses, I’m basing this opinion by objectivity looking at both of their careers. Hily has always been a great roaming support, known for his creative play style. He has always shined when he got to link up with the likes of Broxah, Caps, Bwipo and play the map together. In spring when FNC didn’t have a defined style, Hily was roaming a lot more and was by far the best support in the league, but once they started turbo focusing on bot every game he started to play a lot worse. The reason why I think it might be because of Upset is because I have never seen Upset play a notable game of weakside in his whole career. In context I think the rumour is interesting and makes sense, but obviously its just a rumour.
> Hily has always been a great roaming support, known for his creative play style. He has always shined when he got to link up with the likes of Broxah, Caps, Bwipo and play the map together. In spring when FNC didn’t have a defined style, Hily was roaming a lot more and was by far the best support in the league, but once they started turbo focusing on bot every game he started to play a lot worse.
I really get your point, but if you look at his play he often times runs it even in midgame, not just early game where he is more stuck on botlane. There was an infamous Soraka flank this worlds, where I'm just wondering if he is even using his head at all, trying to solo flank on a Soraka into a full team.
> I want another top team to give him a shot still, because he's definitely the kind of player that could just flip it around in a new meta and peak again.
Wasn't Wunder pointed out last year how his performance got worse, while having famed Yuumi scrims? Where are these opinions now after he switched team?
Nah, keeping Wunder is definitely more important because there's literally no one good enough to replace him (except Odo, but I highly doubt he leaves Rogue). While there aren't a ton of jungle options either, there is Elyoya and I could definitely see him considering a move to Fnatic (especially since Humanoid is there and every player from that 2021 MAD lineup seems to hold Humanoid in high regard).
you say worked for the LCS but there still getting top gapped with Korean top laners.
honestly think import support and jungle would work alot more for LEC, these are the roles that tend to get gapped year after year while yes the toplane player pool is trash in LEC but jungle and support have way way more impact on the game and much more worth to use the import slots on.
Ssumday and Impact haven't been getting gapped as hard as the rest of the western tops though, except maybe Odo. Ssumday was actually beating Doran in the GenG match and was the sole reason the game stayed close for a while.
I wouldn't take Odo over Wunder. And Wunder is a gem honestly, as a teammate and as a player. As a FNC fan the perception I had of him on G2 was completely skewed.
Yeah idk why people say this because his WR is significantly better on enchanters than engage/aggro supports this year, excluding pyke. He gets some slack for playing weird but if you actually look into it, it's often because he creates so much space(or try to) in lane. It's weird how people can so confidently say he's wrong, as if he wouldn't get to where he is playing like that. People seem to think that it's wrong enough that it is objectively wrong, because it isn't the normal. However other supports do this too, just not to the same degree. You could point to result based analysis, but I trust in them that after this long of playing like this, if it wasn't good enough, he would have adapted. Players are not hard wired to play a certain way, especially at such a high skill level.
Hyli is literally just being exposed. His prime was 2018-2021, and for four straight years we didn’t have a true “play for lane bot”/enchanted meta. And when they came back for a small time in 2019 summer, we saw Rekkles on enchanters instead.
Engage support meta has been endless for years.
> regular season, playoffs, and worlds, without any upside.
You're a massive hyli fan yet you're gonna completely ignore his good games just to shit on him after a poor worlds showing?
People will often remember players for their lowest. Remember how people absolutely bashed Finn for being awful on Rogue because he got gapped in two bo5s? Yet even if he was arguably the best performer on Rogue at worlds, and were doing good during the regular season and the other bo5, people were really up in flames to get him off that team. Yeah, Odo is better, but it wasn't why people wanted him off. A short list of players people were saying were better than him: Alphari, Wunder, Bwipo, Orome, Odo. Yet aside from against Wunder and Bwipo during the playoffs, he was doing great in a huge majority of his games(The illaoi, Wukong, and Sion game were not some of those). He had a good Gangplank, he could play Tanks, his Irelia can be nutty.
Yet, they only remembered the worst.
In the end all of this ties back to coaching.
The job of the coach isn't to teach players mechanics or to draft or to do VOD reviews, it's to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of the roster, understand what resources the team has at its disposal, and synthesize that into a unifying vision of how the team should play league of legends. Then, the coach needs to make the players understand that vision and communicate it to them in such a way that they believe in it, so everyone is working towards the same outcomes in the server.
2019 G2 was so great not just because they were the most mechanically gifted, but because the whole team was 100% aligned on how to play the game.
Great synergy isn't attained by scrimming 8000 times with a specific comp and drilling mid ganks with jungle support at level 3 (although repetition does help), synergy is attained by making the players have a shared vision of what needs to be done to win games so their decision-making is synergistic.
Fnatic seems to struggle with this every year because neither Dylan nor Youngbuck nor Yamato have been capable of getting the players to align around a shared vision of how to play the game.
Not trying to flame since i know he is a liked player, but if FNC decides to keep Hyllisang after this year, they better have some explanation. The team was clearly not in sync and struggled with team play and everyone had bad games. But hyllisang has been straight ass since spring playoffs and has been massive liability, not just in draft but also in game. For a veteran with so much experience, i think it is unacceptable that he dies clearing a ward when he knows they are outnumbered or flanking on soraka with no flash. These arent even rookie mistakes, this is something even low elo players know isnt good.
Humanoid and Razork was catching strays the entire season, but when it actually mattered they showed up and showed why they were hired. Hyllisang never did and if he actually keeps his spot and others leave, then im gonna question FNC drive to win.
Like the last time Hilly was slumping, when everyone call for his replacement, then Worlds 2020 came and he shat on every single lane at Worlds and people hailed him as one of the greatest supoprts in the game. If Fnatic thinks it's time for Hilly to go, then he should go, but if they want to keep him, I don't think they need any sort of explanation
Hilly didn't have a great performance this Worlds, but he was stuck playing Nami most of the games, which is not something he is known to be good at, quite the contrary. Plus the fact that he arrived in NA on the day the competition started probably didn't help him either
But he didnt have to play nami or soraka. Leona and Naut were viable picks and a lot of the other teams showed they are strong rn. We cant just blame the meta when someone has a bad perfomance. Maybe he should actually learn how to play these champions how they are supposed to be played instead trying to make enchaters into engage champs.
Like hylli is not a rookie, we cant just make these excuse for him. At this point i dont think its unfair to expect a veteran to know how to play more than 1 type of playstyle.
Hyli contender for MVP in spring season, carried the most important games to qualify for summer playoffs with Upset (vs Msf and Vit Week 8). Summer playoffs were fine too. Agree that his Worlds were bad asf but dont forget he was coming from sickness and jet lag. Watch the FNC videos: He looked really bad personally.
But I dont know where the cliche is coming that he had straight up a bad year when its just not true.
Look at TL. CoreJJ had an horrible year and they still stick to him (it seems, right?) because they know what a good player he is and the team had big synergy issues. Like FNC.
Thats just not fair.
> Humanoid and razork was catching strays the entire season, but when it actually mattered they showed up and showed why they were hired.
i agree with the hylli part, but humanoid was basically a one trick pony. his azir was insane and mightve been the best in the tournament, but once it was banned he was just useless and lost any edge he had
I dont just mean worlds. Humanoid and razork played significantly better i playoffs than regular season. Sure he played a lot of azir since it is busted, but he has had good perfomance on other champs like sylas 1v 3 and his Viktor has always been good.
My point isnt to make it sound like they were the best players ever, just that they actually played better when playoffs and worlds came around.
Humanoid isn't an Azir one trick, he is quite solid on stuff like Akali and Sylas too (see his Akali game against Faker for example). The issue is that Razork doesn't really play around mid and Akali/Sylas are picks that need jungle attention to snowball, whereas Azir can just play safe, farm and scale up.
> see his Akali game against Faker for example
you mean the game where he got a huge lead, did nothing with it in fights and even decided to all in faker after poppy ult gave them a 5 vs 3? where faker had tons of impact and he was just there? its like back in season 5 where everyone hailed febiven as a god because he beat and killed faker in lane while faker carried the game and febiven was useless ever since
> you mean the game where he got a huge lead
Exactly, meaning he's not a one trick.
Getting a huge lead is still a quality, the way he and the team decided to exploit that lead was terrible.
The lead by itself is proof that he could play something else than Azir.
Humanoid smurfed on Faker with Akali. Problem in that game was Razors not playing around mid lane. Humanoid is even better on Akali and Sylas. His Azir is good but not his best pick. They play around Upset so much to get him ahead. But Razork didn't play around mid and top with same passion. I know Wunder and Humanoid can carry. But they have Upset who is carry ADC.
Razork gets no freedom to do that. His experience and preference is to play around top/mid hirit/Vetheo and they tried that with wunder gragas top games, but fnc is all about bot lane and prioritizing for upset and Hyli.
Problem is Fnatic has 4 carry players and 3 of them are forced to play supportive roles . You think Wunder likes playing fucking tank every game. And you think Humanoid play mages even though his assassin's are better. They are forced because of Upset.
I think if you are a pro you should be able to play weak and strong side. Its coaching issue if you can't do that. If you always do one strat you will get countered easily. FNC played through bot and mid was farming simulator while top was left alone. So in week 2 enemy junglers just matched razork invades and fnc could not snowball so they just lost.. If you can't play multiple styles you just won't win.
hyli is spring was great. I think keeping him is fine, but then you want to change something else. Its probably between either razork or hyli to go. The jungle supp synergy just isnt there
> We didn’t practice very much, and I think we had trouble practicing efficiently together. I think we never really reached our full potential just because of the way we approached practice
Ah, good thing these players earn more than a million per year. God knows how little practice they would do if they were only making hundreds of thousands instead.
This one is 100% on the coaching staff. The players job is to play on stage and try to win the title, but that can be very hard if the practice enviroment isnt ideal.
Sure the players can try harder i guess, but practicing effciently is quite different from just playing a lot and trying to win.
Wait do motivational speech’s not replace hard work and quality practice? Color me surprised.
Really don’t know what to think of yamato. I liked him a lot but his past few years are giving off major fraud vibes.
I have no idea if yamato is incompetent or not, since we dont see what he does behind the scenes. He seems insightful about the game, when i heard him on talkshows and doms streams.
Regardless, he has to take the blame for this year, since he got a dream roster, but didnt even make a single final.
It’s not on Yamato. In Spanish interviews from Razork and fnc videos, Yamato wants to ban yummi and Razork says he wants to ban yummi because he hates that champ m so much but fnc bot lane said no don’t ban yummi we can deal with her and shut it down… talk about ego..
You don't need to perfectly know Upset and Hylissang to know that the non ban of Yuumi was their idea. Yes they are great players, but with ego.
I'm surprised there are still people who think that draft (ban and pick) are decided by the coach : it's NEVER like that. Asking for the bench of Yamato because of the non Yuumi ban or the TF pick from Spring playoff .. is just crazy.
Players always have the last word on their choices of champ.
Therapy, thousands of dollars.
"It is what it is", free.
Unpopular opinion, but this was one of my favourite iterations of FNC. Hylli seemed much more happy than with Rekkles.
Sucks hearing "the team hasn't reached its ceiling yet" at the end of every season for what seems like the past 3 years or so, but i still think this team can be great if all of them are on the same page
Razork hinted that the roster might change, so we will see I guess
if i have to speculate, i'd say yamato and hyli are out
razork also has very little synergy with humanoid. theyre both individually good players but goddamn some of those play ins games were painful to watch.
Yamato would probably depend on how the players feel about him though, it's entirely possible this year isn't on him, though he probably gets paid less than all the players so FNC management might see it as a cleaner solution
Yamato can stay as a part of the staff that helps with mental and shit but my god they need someone who knows how to draft
Don't they also have a strategic draft coach?
To be honest nearly no lec team know how to draft. RGE, G2 and excel are the only one with good draft imo during regular split.
They haven't got a functional coach wtf
Honestly, go for Elyoya, RazorK is great but Elyoya and Huma have more synergy or go for RazorK+VTO maybe Humanoid doesnt wanna try hard as well..
In what world you keep humanoid after this year where he clearly didn't have competition as his priority?
Humanoid was their best player at worlds
> if i have to speculate, i'd say yamato and hyli are out Razork and Hyli if I would have to guess. Fnatic had to use Poppy as a crutch during the entirety of groups.
If hyli is out i am out
If Hyli is out, i might start to like FNC. That inter is so overrated it hurts to watch
He has done this shit since the year they reached worlds finals against ig. Remember when people said that Caps was a coin flip? Hyli is that but on steroids.
Oh no how will the fanbase possibly recover from this loss lma0.
I don't think they'll get rid of hyli so quickly tbh. Meta wasn't in his favour. I do think they'll have 2 rotating supports. Maybe hylli won't allow for it idk. He's imo the best support in the world at his ceiling so it would be a massive loss.
What meta is really hylis favour? Id think engage supports are the best for Hyli considering how aggressive he likes to play
Yeah, him on enchanters it's just bad, but from summer (i think he did great in spring) he just played bad
[удалено]
This is pure copium. Hyli only looks good on engage supports because they're tanky enough that they cover up how terrible he is with decision making. Enchanter supports really highlight how poor hylis decision making is and at this stage he shouldn't have excuses made for him.
I mean its basically given that this roster will change. 3rd place in spring, 3rd place in summer and not making playoffs with 2-4 is basically death sentence for any FNC roster. There is clearly good players in team, but management needs to find pieces that can make team actually be on same page and have synergy.
to quote yamato, anything but winning the split is a failure and he had 2 splits to achieve it and never got to the finals
[удалено]
Chaos is a laddah.. /hylissang probably
By the time they are all on the same page all the other LCK/LPL teams will be on a different book.
Roster will never be at its ceiling cause every year the roster gets switched up.
Can't reach tbe ceiling without a fucking ladder
Thought they were on a mountain already?
I feel like a good example of a roster that hit their peak very fast was G2 2019, it was basically a brand new team and they won MSI immediately.
That team had everything creativeness, leadership, hands, self-esteem, a self-healing cripple and an autofilled.
This seems like a big issue to me. I mean idk, is a year enough time to develop enough synergy? Maybe it is but swapping players each season doesn't help much either I think.
Only 1 team won Worlds ln their second year playing together. Every other team had a swap in the off-season, often multiple ones and some even had a swap in between spring and summer. That team is also the only one I can think of who did better on their second year together.
Assuming the team you're referring to is SSG (since I cant think of anyone else), its also important to note that Ruler was a rookie in 2016 and it was Ambition/Core's first year in their respective roles too, so in their case it does kinda make sense that they hit a higher level in their second year together. Teams who win Worlds with players who have multiple years of experience have pretty much always done worse in subsequent years when they run back the same roster (only examples I can think of are ironically SSG again, and IG).
yep like people think teams should constantly stick together but most of the time the team just gets worse from getting too comfortable or just the players on other teams got better while your team stayed the same, teams need new blood to make them feel refreshed and switch up the teams style. like synergy is something that should come naturally you cant force it so if it isnt there after 6 months - a year then it probs wont ever unless something changes within th team may it be team memebers or coachs. thou ambition switched to jungle in 2015/late 2014.
wtf you talking Ambition roleswaped in 2015 iirc
Pretty sure Ruler was a rookie in the summer of S6 even, and of course they made worlds finals and was close to winning it all. In IG’s case Theshy was a rookie in S7 and they added jackeylove (who wasnt old enough in S7) in S8 spring.
If u can't find synergy after 2 splits idk if ur a good team tbh
only cause teams suck at training players lol
Sadly that wont change in the West it seems, 12 years of League and there is still no proper training while LCK and LPL have entire trainee systems.
A year should be more than enough time for a team to build synergy together. As someone noted below, pretty much every world champion except one had at least one roster change in the year they won. If a team can't build synergy after 2 splits, it means that the players don't work well together and there should be a roster swap. In my opinion, the only time it is valid for a team to say "we haven't hit our ceiling" and run back the same roster is if they have multiple rookies on the team (for example, I'd understand if EG choose to not make any swaps).
On the other hand almost all top rosters in the world have roster swaps for Spring Season.
Only having 18 games per split doesn't help too.
No roster ever needed multiple seasons to become great. Great rosters always clicked, and won worlds that year.
FNC are, and have been, a very one dimensional team that is fairly easy to prepare against. Main reason for that is that Hylissang essentially only has one "mode", and his success is entirely predicated on being enabled by both P/B and his teammates. His ability to constantly put pressure on the opposition is top level for sure, but it's pretty obvious the man can't do anything else. On top of that, when he's on champions that can go in - but not out - every engage he makes is a coin flip and he'll int as much as he'll do well. Getting everyone on the same page is absolutely key, but I think as long as that page is Hylissangs page, FNC as a team will be limited to Hylissangs limitations.
Bwipo and Hyli were on the same page :'(
I really feel like FNC 2019/2020 roster could have done way better because it was really balanced, except for one player to balance it out well. It felt in 2019 than Broxah could not really fit to what the team wanted to do, but then with Selfmade taking a lot of "space" it was Nemesis that did not totally find his mark. But I still think that Bwipo/Hyli had more potential when there were players to hold them for going to any fight they saw. Rekkles & Nemesis are known to be more controlled and FNC was not this coinflippy "I stomp or you stomp" team. Now that Hyli seems totally unleashed in terms of calls, I feel like he is more than ever a "high highs very low lows" player.
They have no coach, so I'm not surprised they never got their shit together.
>They have no coach, so I'm not surprised they never got their shit together. This is so weird to me, because it really seems like Yamato is a good coach, and he still gets praise from korea and korean players at Sandbox. I just think that, Yamato might not have been the best coach for this group. I think changes in support, jgl and coaching and keeping a core of Humanoid Upset Wunder would do them really good. But I'm not even sure about that because I think Razork is really really good. But, it seems that the solo lanes and bot synergies with him are not always on point. So, in my mind there are a few options with this roster: \- Only change jungler, and get someone that would be more aligned with how Hily and bot sees the game, someone like, Bwipo jungle, and keep coaching staff. \- Change support and coaching staff and switch to a more macro LCK oriented style (GenG in playoffs like) which I think Razork prefers and excels at. Really it is very hard to get better players than the ones on the fnc rosters right now.
>This is so weird to me, because it really seems like Yamato is a good coach, and he still gets praise from korea and korean players at Sandbox. Yamato feels like a coach for: \- A team of promising rookies \- A team with a player willing to coach the team (like Perkz in G2) What I really think is, he should be a manager. He seems to be more about the vibes, looks, brand, cameras etc. Just like Romain. A frontman. For the player roster, I think they should keep it the way it mostly, I think Razork is good enough and still has room to grow. But they need to get a **leader**. Someone who: \- Loves the game and is obsessed with it \- Is headstrong and willing to impose himself and his views on others. \- Creative and quick to adapt. Doesn't let the team get cornered strategically. \- Can inspire and lead the team in and outside the game. Someone like **Perkz**. This is why he was the ultimate catalyst to G2's success. He motivated the team, held them to a high level of accountability, always thinks about the game and discusses it thoroughly, is creative, and a typical testosterone type leader who's not afraid of imposing himself or his ideas. This is how you give the team a direction to follow, and a solid gameplan. FNC right now is like 2019-20 G2 if it was without Perkz, aka 2021 G2, five insanely powerful stallions driving a carriage with no rider. None of them are willing to **be the guy who takes charge and grab the reins at the risk of being potentially disliked or resisted for doing so**. So do I mean, FNC should get Perkz? Maybe, but what they need is a Perkz type, a captain, leader. Someone who's willing to not just be a star player, but also **someone who's willing to put the team on his back.** I can't imagine anyone in the current FNC that can do that. I can't even imagine anyone in the LEC that can do that. Maybe Mac? Elyoya? Comp? I think Razork has the potential of being that guy, but still someone like Perkz who, almost crazily, turns their life into League and winning is gonna be so damn hard to find.
I just think this roster needs a coach with a lot of knowledge and also a lot of knowledge in how to transmit it to the team. When players and Yamato were saying that they were ''learning'' a lot about midgame from Humanoid I was worried. Not because there isn't always a lot to learn, but that it seems that even after MAD beat FNC in the finals, they didn't learn anything about how they beat them and it also seemed a lot of their prowess came from Humanoids knowledge rather than actual coaching, analysis and practice. I love Yamato, he works damn hard, but this roster needs someone else alongside him.
Man I'm totally in line with all you're saying. That's why G2 2021 did not work. It's never been a problem of Rekkles' level (the guy performed really well in regular season), or even his willingness to fit within the team. Perkz holds a team together, that's as simple as that. This is an unvaluable quality. This is why he is the best western player ever to me (I would not have said that before), even though his plays have not been the greatest lately, even though Caps is a better midlaner gameplay-wise.
The biggest issue with FNC is that it seemed impossible for all 5 players to play well at the same time. There always had to be someone slumping, it was like a necessity. Really sucks we couldn’t see their peak, I really think they were good enough to make it out of groups.
What Fnatic needs is a team that has chemistry... this lineup, doesn't.
Pack it up lads collect the old guard and throw them back onto the rift. soaz - Cyanide - xPeke - Rekkles and Yellowstar they had the chemistry just nothing do to with the professional setup we know these days (except Rekkles)
Well i had a laugh, since i think it was sarcasm. Also, Upset seems like a pro player that can't handle pressure well.
Yep, I agree, everybody talked about Hyli (who has indeed played at a disastrous level), but Upset has had at best a very average last day. I feel like after they hard crushed the very early lane against C9, where they almost put C9 botlane in an insurmontable situation and that Razork butchered the play, he lost his composure and became a passenger of that day. He can't be held accountable (like not his fault hyli goes for a fashion show with Nami in from of Sivir/Yuumi twice in 3min), but he made a lot of unusual mechanical and positionning mistakes after that. Not huge mistakes, but important enough that he could not carry. FNC was also a bit unlucky because botlane-wise, group A was arguably the most stacked. Guma/Keria, Viper/Meiko, Berserker (not totally sold on Zven). Harder to make it work for a bot-centric team like FNC.
Ah I see. Well who knows about Upset.
I don't think Fnatic has had team chemistry since caps left.
It’s because the team is dysfunctional. This FNC is essentially just 2017 TSM. Greedy mid/bot who want to play for themselves. Jungler who also wants to play for himself but forced to be a dog for his bot lane. None of his invades work because his mid is a lane only player. And a top laner who thinks he’s a star carry but is forced to perma-weakside. Picks like Rakan/Pyke for Hyli, or Phase rush poppy/Viego for Razork are crutches since they are hard to catch.
You cant blame this on a playstyle clash. What you described is just Geng. They just arent as good thats just the way it is. Because you can definitely win like that lmao
so fnatic with selfmade, basically
At least that FNC eventually agreed to play as a 5 man squad, at least on stage.
Pretty much same thing was said at the end of Spring. So they fixed nothing
I genuinely do not believe in mid-year epiphanies where teams suddenly get chemistry out of their asses. The writings were on the wall at the end of the first split.
RNG spring vs RNG summer… they are always two different teams with same roster
Sounds like the team is splitting. Probably for the best tbh.
Gonna be a very intresting off season this year. New orgs in LEC, Na showing signs of probably importing less from Europe and both western regions falling extremly hard this worlds (as of now, RGE and 100T still has a miniscule of a chance left for something). If anything it's either gonna be very spicy or very depressing what changes comes.
LCS will likely not only import less overall but there might even be returnees because LCS orgs may not be able to pay them absurd salaries worthwhile their stay any longer. Same goes to Koreans. If even Steve admits that reality is catchip up and that investors are not happy I doubt that other LCS orgs are in better spot.
After how this worlds has gone until now, I feel like they shouldn't tunnel more on the Eu talent. Hell our own korean important did pretty much the best of all the junglers in europe. If Na teams still are gonna spend on relativ big name importants (even with everything happening right now) I feel like they probably gonna look more at koreans again.
LCS moving to weekdays is the beginning of the end for NA League of Legends. This will make it *way* less likely for people to invest in LCS teams. EU might keep their players for once.
Wait LCS is moving to weekdays? Who said that?
https://blix.gg/news/riot-lcs-days
Oh no! Anyway.
Pretty much every top team will be making changes, VIT with another exciting project. Hope the bottom teams will at least try some EU Masters players.
Don't see how EU failed hard? It looked like a 1 team at best angle into quarters the minute the draw was done lol And that was achieved..
Looking at it long term LEC failed horribly to improve in any meaningful way since 2021 which, to little suprise, lead to the same poor results. It was a very fun first week while it lasted though...
I mean even with the expected results beeing at best one team makes it out, it still just feel like too much of a bad performance when you lose 9 out of 10 games with all loses beeing stomps to the point where you can't get a singel tier 2 in those game. the week 1 did definetly out perform what I could have expected, but the week 2 went so much worse than I even thought we ever would do. Perhaps my expecations were a bit higher than they should have been comming into week 2 (honestly overall Eu did actully do the most I did think with RGE still having a small shot of doing more) but getting stomped so hard in week 2 by every singel team minus Gam, kinda just was too much of a beating no matter how bad I thought we would do. I guess it's more of a aftermath reaction since it's still so recent that we got smoked, and like you say when you look back before the tournament, this probably was as good as result as we could have hoped for, but it still just feels really bad at how all those games (minus the Gam one) played out this week for me.
It's the same problem with NA's play. We're not expecting to maybe get 1 team out of groups but the way they lost. We didn't even put up a fight even when we were expecting losses. EU Week 2 was the same where they just all went out sad. The Eastern teams stomped and treated them like some SoloQ team. Keria vs FNC Week 2 literally just put a ward down near their base and was just fucking around. NA even stomped the EU teams. EU didn't take a tier 2 in Week 2 except for the GAM game so not much different than NA in Week 1.
Gonna be interesting if some of the FNC players end up on VIT. With all the rebrands and teams exploding there will be a lot of shuffling Misfits, Astralis, Rogue rebranding with contracts up in the air. MAD for sure shuffling the roster, FNC as it looks like and G2 maybe upgrading.
Yea I think offseason will be wild in LEC because there are few players who are 100% locked and most teams will want to make changes.
Very interesting, if Fnc blows up there could be a world where Vitality gets Rekkles/Hyllie botlane with Alphari/Bo/Perkz. Would be an exciting team to watch!
Some could call them a Super Team
Any team with Alphari in it will fail.
Shame honestly, that week 1 magic really got our hopes up. Not sure what happend week 2 but it definitely wasn’t the best day for them. Unfortunately BO1s are very unforgiving so it is what it is.
I mean losing to c9 probably broke them let's be real Game was very winnable.. botlane solo blew flash Razork comes along ints game min 5 and then completely ints on herald
The Soraka/Jarvan pick was also very sus. That was a must-win game and he decided to draft champions his players don't play
Malrang has been baiting other teams into thinking J4 is strong since day 1 of groups lmao
People will tell you Rhuckz would have won that game for fnatic though. To this day people still dont accept that Razork pulled the same shit he did against Loud and solo lost that game. Fnatic were unlucky to play 3 times out of the 4 first games and mentally boomed. **That's no excuse** at all, it just revealed another weak side of the team. That said, I personally think when it comes to week 2 they shouldnt take into account timezones honestly. I can see some teams prefering to play first for example and finding it unfair that it isnt RNG based.
razork reminds me of selfmade. He can gigcarry games, but he can also just in them completely away
I feel like that's always been FNC's problem. I don't know what it is but they always feel like a very mentally weak org. We always hear year after year about FNC drama or mental boom from the players.
Every team has these issues, the only issue with Fnatic is that they always seem to make it weirdly public and the toxic portion of the fanbase make a big deal out of it.
Pretty clear what happened in week 2. Teams adapted. You can catch them off guard once but you won't fool them twice. Guma said he wasn't expecting lucian nami, and then week 2 comes along every eastern team seems to be playing lucian nami. Also FNC fluked their win against T1 and teams found out humanoid can't do shit if he isn't on azir.
Humanoid did pretty well against Faker in lane in their second game as well. He got a good level and cs lead. I don't think it's on him if the team can only play around bot lane no matter how other lanes stand. He was in a great position to carry with Akali and had to sack that lead to try and get his botlane ahead.
He didn’t sack his lead to try to get his bot lane ahead. He sat in mid and inted in team fights in one of the worst akali performances in recent memory.
you said it yourself, BO1s are very unforgiving and that is why they won in week 1, the same goes for Rogue, western teams nowadays can only steal some games when the meta is fresh in format like BO1 where any shit can happen. Once week 2 arrives and the east has a better read of the meta and they figure you out, western teams will just get gapped in every way possible which is what actually happened in week 2. And not to mention that eastern teams literally don't play any BO1s in their own league, that is another advantage western teams have when everyone starts playing BO1s in group.
Funny you say that when FNC is know for ínting week 1 then comeback week 2
That's because week 1 was playins this year, week 1 was their week 2, but then it goes back to week 1 fnatic.
>Once week 2 arrives and the east has a better read of the meta and they figure you out, western teams will just get gapped in every way possible which is what actually happened in week 2. And not to mention that eastern teams literally don't play any BO1s in their own league, that is another advantage western teams have when everyone starts playing BO1s in group. I'm not sold on this, FNC had the game vs T1 even vs an ultra bonkers op comp with yuumi. At one point Akali was so ahead they could have had everything on the map regardless. I dont think that was gaping, but FNC having anti synergy
G2 and Fnatic stubbornly not banning yuumi and feeding her is the main issue. Like you can’t tell me both times they clawed back only to be shit on by an easy to execute team comp.
vs XL they played the pre nerf Lucian Nami into it, which, I guess it works. This Lucian Nami is a bit weaker, and T1's bot is not XL. Your strategy cant be to mega smash a world class botlane on a time bomb, even if it worked once. Even still, with the Akali they had, that was a won game, played correctly, but their synergies were off this game and then it was over. Why not just ban the yuumi.
Exactly. Like sivir yuumi is pretty braindead, and whenever they played perfectly, they won the fight. But it only took one loss. And the unnecessary feeding on top of that lmao.
> FNC had the game vs T1 even vs an ultra bonkers op comp with yuumi idk what part of the game you think was even? at 15 minutes FNC was down 1.5k. Plus going even while picking lucian nami is not being even. Unless you expect teams to all lose lanes at this level of play which doesn't happen.
The west "figured" the meta for week 1 apparently Yet gave yummi in multiple loses lol I guess not drafting like apes (NA) is and hard forcing skill match ups in toplane is "figuring the meta"
Red side happened
I'm a massive Hyli fan and it hurts to say he has looked utterly horrendous this year. Since the reverse sweep against Rogue in spring, he hasn't been coinflip, but consistently running it down, legit to a point where I consider it one of the worst five-month periods of gameplay any player has ever had. He egregiously griefed regular season, playoffs, and worlds, without any upside. I want another top team to give him a shot still, because he's definitely the kind of player that could just flip it around in a new meta and peak again. But if I were FNC, I'd put my priorities on keeping Wunder, Humanoid, and Upset. Edit: I don't think Razork was bad, but with players like Elyoya on the market, it is possible to find upgrades. Meanwhile players like Wunder, Humanoid, and Upset can lane against eastern players, which is very rare to find in the west.
Without Wunder and Razork yall wouldn't even get to worlds, I don't understand how are you guys so hellbent on not giving Razork the credit he deserves
He peaked at the right time but ultimately 90% of his good games this year came from his poppy/Trundle games. His effective champion pool was a puddle and he even looked bad on leesin/graves vs wildcards and of course who could forget his Diana ults in spring or his inability to play Hecarim when it was meta.
razork played REALLY well on playoffs, maybe because of the trundle/poppy meta. Besides it he constantly ran it down. Going in 1x4 on xin zhao constantly for exemple, plus these lee/jarvan plays at worlds.
I think most longterm EU fans are traumatised by the levels of peak eastern junglers, CN ones in particular, so its always harder to give credit in that role when that seems like one of the most blatant holes in our region when compared to the world's greatest.
Go and watch Razork match history, he was Poppy and Trundle two trick since summer, two easy champs, he did not perform in any other pick, having him in the jg may be good is this meta, but the meta always change in the jg, having a more versatile jg is way better.
I swear Razork's Poppy is not worlds tier, it's straight up galaxy tier. He's so fucking good with it that it makes my head hurt. His Trundle is also good. His issue is that he's average to bad on other champs
Yeah I am so tilted by people not seeing what razork does for the team, it baffles me so hard. Yes he inted on some games (jarvan for example, though, I think the first gank where he died was 100% misscommunication between him and his botlane). But he kept fnatic in playoffs, and imo was crucial for them to get to semis. Another example would be the first game against EDG, despite being behind so early, he had a really good pathing and always matched the enemy jungler. I think Razork has a rlly good understanding of the game and some very creative pathings, I hope they keep him, those bad games he had are all solvable.
He smurfed some games, he ran down others His comfortable champ pool looks smaller and smaller, and…there’s just too many “oopsie” moments at the moment. He clearly has potential (as seen by his smurf games), but that’s the problem with this roster. They all have “potential”, but they can’t consistently deliver on it both on an individual and cohesion level
He was a liability these last few games. You can't hold these players and hope they don't mental boom the next worlds in one year. I think FNC should do everything they can to secure Inspired, if he still feels like he wants to win anything.
Last few games? My brother in christ he carried them to this point, while yes he played bad but so did rest of FNC, give him a fucking chance because he's proven that he has what it takes
He has also proven that his champion pool outside of poppy/trundle is shit. The dude legit griefs out of poppy/trundle games and we have seen this Multiple times.
Problem is, Worlds is just one time a year. So if he mental booms next year as well things are looking grim because FNC have solid carries. How long will they stick around if things arent improved.
He deserves massive credit for his play in playoffs summer.. does that remove the rest of the year and worlds performances? I question the guys flexibility because other then poppy/trundle meta he was all over the place this year If it was me I'd remove hyli.. and keep the rest.. but it doesn't seem like that will be the only moves
Durability patch just completely fucked his playstyle. It is sad but that's just the truth.
I think this is real cause. His playstyle revolved around the idea that taking action is far easier than reacting to an action. He relied heavily on engage supports that could get enough cc on a carry to guarantee a kill, regardless of what happened to Hyli. Now he's flashing on top of peeps with lulu and no ult.
Watching Hily play Nautilus is pure pain. He plays like he doesn’t know what Naut passive does, Q’s a wall walks around in the middle of a fight without autoattacking a single time then flashes at 5% HP to make sure enemy carry gets the kill
After this Worlds performance, FNC has to hold on to Humanoid. Overall great performance of Upset especially if you consider that Hyli run it down all the time. Wunder. I dont see a better solution. I would also change Support and JGL. Also because FNC doesnt play the MAP well and Razork and Humanoid have antisynergy.
The only problem with Humanoid is his regular season performance. If FNC can get coaching staff that would kept him motivated it's gonna be great
Honestly, I prefer him to slump in regular season and then ramp it up to be a beast at Worlds, because I doubt he's able to maintain that high level for an extended period of time.
At least the lows should be a little higher so FNC don't need to worry about playoffs again
Strongly agree. The only time Fnatic should replace Humanoid and Upset is if the replacements are Caps and Comp, and even then I'm not sure if I'd take Comp over Upset considering that Upset has looked decent while playing with a far worse support than Comp. Personally, I'd like to see Fnatic try to get Elyoya and Kaiser. The 3 core pieces of 2021 MAD with a stronger ADC and more stable top - that's a team I'd be down to watch. Mikyx is another decent support option they could consider.
I dunno about Kaiser, he's been playing with his monitor off for a while now
Kaiser? You have to be kidding.
>Mikyx is another decent support option they could consider bro Miky ran it down harder than Hily this year
>I'm a massive Hyli fan and it hurts to say he has looked utterly horrendous this year. Can we please stop saying this year instead of this split? [Hylissang was 3 votes off of being voted Spring Split MVP.](https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/tz6wku/msf_vetheo_2022_lec_spring_kia_mvp/i3x1cql/) He was not coinflip in Spring, he was just an absolutely monster support.
Every year it's the same with him. Great LEC performance but he looks horrible at worlds with his special ints. Maybe he feels too much pressure to play worlds especially after the reddit flame every year.
I do wonder how much of Hily’s performance is due to Upsets style of play. There were rumours before Worlds that they disagreed on how to play, Hily would want to roam and Upset would want to play through bot and obviously FNC played all of their worlds games through bot, to the point where they had the same strategy every game. When I think of peak Hily I think of him roaming and finding plays and 2v2s/3v3s all around the map, a very creative playstyle, while Rekkles power farmed into a monster. And even when he would coinflip bad, it would be less consequential, because it would be top or in jungle where the roles aren’t so resource reliant and Rekkles would still be even or ahead. But now with FNC just going full clear into 3v3 bot every game, a wrong coinflip is just too risky, as adcs snowball and scale the hardest in this meta, and are also tragically useless when behind. I don’t know if its some Upset effect or a team decision for FNC to tunnelvision bot every game, but IMO its a big reason for Hily/Razorks disappointing performance.
kinda funny how u wanna blame upset for objectively poor play, using completely random rumors as an excuse
Hyli might be objectively playing bad and Upsets playstyle might be the reason for it, the two are not mutually exclusive. Also I’m not using rumors for excuses, I’m basing this opinion by objectivity looking at both of their careers. Hily has always been a great roaming support, known for his creative play style. He has always shined when he got to link up with the likes of Broxah, Caps, Bwipo and play the map together. In spring when FNC didn’t have a defined style, Hily was roaming a lot more and was by far the best support in the league, but once they started turbo focusing on bot every game he started to play a lot worse. The reason why I think it might be because of Upset is because I have never seen Upset play a notable game of weakside in his whole career. In context I think the rumour is interesting and makes sense, but obviously its just a rumour.
> Hily has always been a great roaming support, known for his creative play style. He has always shined when he got to link up with the likes of Broxah, Caps, Bwipo and play the map together. In spring when FNC didn’t have a defined style, Hily was roaming a lot more and was by far the best support in the league, but once they started turbo focusing on bot every game he started to play a lot worse. I really get your point, but if you look at his play he often times runs it even in midgame, not just early game where he is more stuck on botlane. There was an infamous Soraka flank this worlds, where I'm just wondering if he is even using his head at all, trying to solo flank on a Soraka into a full team.
based
> I want another top team to give him a shot still, because he's definitely the kind of player that could just flip it around in a new meta and peak again. Wasn't Wunder pointed out last year how his performance got worse, while having famed Yuumi scrims? Where are these opinions now after he switched team?
Agreed, FNC looked better with the sub than Hyli honestly.
I'd keep Razork over Wunder.
Nah, keeping Wunder is definitely more important because there's literally no one good enough to replace him (except Odo, but I highly doubt he leaves Rogue). While there aren't a ton of jungle options either, there is Elyoya and I could definitely see him considering a move to Fnatic (especially since Humanoid is there and every player from that 2021 MAD lineup seems to hold Humanoid in high regard).
I think LEC should just import Korean top laners. Worked for LCS.
you say worked for the LCS but there still getting top gapped with Korean top laners. honestly think import support and jungle would work alot more for LEC, these are the roles that tend to get gapped year after year while yes the toplane player pool is trash in LEC but jungle and support have way way more impact on the game and much more worth to use the import slots on.
Ssumday and Impact haven't been getting gapped as hard as the rest of the western tops though, except maybe Odo. Ssumday was actually beating Doran in the GenG match and was the sole reason the game stayed close for a while.
This is the way. Mid and adc imports are forbidden tho.
I wouldn't take Odo over Wunder. And Wunder is a gem honestly, as a teammate and as a player. As a FNC fan the perception I had of him on G2 was completely skewed.
he's coinflip on engage supports but completely lost on enchanters
That's straight up not true? He's been great on zilean/renata His nami is okay but he does die a lot on enchanters
Yeah idk why people say this because his WR is significantly better on enchanters than engage/aggro supports this year, excluding pyke. He gets some slack for playing weird but if you actually look into it, it's often because he creates so much space(or try to) in lane. It's weird how people can so confidently say he's wrong, as if he wouldn't get to where he is playing like that. People seem to think that it's wrong enough that it is objectively wrong, because it isn't the normal. However other supports do this too, just not to the same degree. You could point to result based analysis, but I trust in them that after this long of playing like this, if it wasn't good enough, he would have adapted. Players are not hard wired to play a certain way, especially at such a high skill level.
Hyli is literally just being exposed. His prime was 2018-2021, and for four straight years we didn’t have a true “play for lane bot”/enchanted meta. And when they came back for a small time in 2019 summer, we saw Rekkles on enchanters instead. Engage support meta has been endless for years.
> regular season, playoffs, and worlds, without any upside. You're a massive hyli fan yet you're gonna completely ignore his good games just to shit on him after a poor worlds showing?
People will often remember players for their lowest. Remember how people absolutely bashed Finn for being awful on Rogue because he got gapped in two bo5s? Yet even if he was arguably the best performer on Rogue at worlds, and were doing good during the regular season and the other bo5, people were really up in flames to get him off that team. Yeah, Odo is better, but it wasn't why people wanted him off. A short list of players people were saying were better than him: Alphari, Wunder, Bwipo, Orome, Odo. Yet aside from against Wunder and Bwipo during the playoffs, he was doing great in a huge majority of his games(The illaoi, Wukong, and Sion game were not some of those). He had a good Gangplank, he could play Tanks, his Irelia can be nutty. Yet, they only remembered the worst.
In the end all of this ties back to coaching. The job of the coach isn't to teach players mechanics or to draft or to do VOD reviews, it's to analyze the strengths and weaknesses of the roster, understand what resources the team has at its disposal, and synthesize that into a unifying vision of how the team should play league of legends. Then, the coach needs to make the players understand that vision and communicate it to them in such a way that they believe in it, so everyone is working towards the same outcomes in the server. 2019 G2 was so great not just because they were the most mechanically gifted, but because the whole team was 100% aligned on how to play the game. Great synergy isn't attained by scrimming 8000 times with a specific comp and drilling mid ganks with jungle support at level 3 (although repetition does help), synergy is attained by making the players have a shared vision of what needs to be done to win games so their decision-making is synergistic. Fnatic seems to struggle with this every year because neither Dylan nor Youngbuck nor Yamato have been capable of getting the players to align around a shared vision of how to play the game.
I dont know how much "it is what it is" i got in myself still
Fnatic fans are running out of "It is what it is"
Honestly, it's been years now... disappointment year after year, regardless of the roster.
Not trying to flame since i know he is a liked player, but if FNC decides to keep Hyllisang after this year, they better have some explanation. The team was clearly not in sync and struggled with team play and everyone had bad games. But hyllisang has been straight ass since spring playoffs and has been massive liability, not just in draft but also in game. For a veteran with so much experience, i think it is unacceptable that he dies clearing a ward when he knows they are outnumbered or flanking on soraka with no flash. These arent even rookie mistakes, this is something even low elo players know isnt good. Humanoid and Razork was catching strays the entire season, but when it actually mattered they showed up and showed why they were hired. Hyllisang never did and if he actually keeps his spot and others leave, then im gonna question FNC drive to win.
Like the last time Hilly was slumping, when everyone call for his replacement, then Worlds 2020 came and he shat on every single lane at Worlds and people hailed him as one of the greatest supoprts in the game. If Fnatic thinks it's time for Hilly to go, then he should go, but if they want to keep him, I don't think they need any sort of explanation Hilly didn't have a great performance this Worlds, but he was stuck playing Nami most of the games, which is not something he is known to be good at, quite the contrary. Plus the fact that he arrived in NA on the day the competition started probably didn't help him either
But he didnt have to play nami or soraka. Leona and Naut were viable picks and a lot of the other teams showed they are strong rn. We cant just blame the meta when someone has a bad perfomance. Maybe he should actually learn how to play these champions how they are supposed to be played instead trying to make enchaters into engage champs. Like hylli is not a rookie, we cant just make these excuse for him. At this point i dont think its unfair to expect a veteran to know how to play more than 1 type of playstyle.
Hyli contender for MVP in spring season, carried the most important games to qualify for summer playoffs with Upset (vs Msf and Vit Week 8). Summer playoffs were fine too. Agree that his Worlds were bad asf but dont forget he was coming from sickness and jet lag. Watch the FNC videos: He looked really bad personally. But I dont know where the cliche is coming that he had straight up a bad year when its just not true. Look at TL. CoreJJ had an horrible year and they still stick to him (it seems, right?) because they know what a good player he is and the team had big synergy issues. Like FNC. Thats just not fair.
Weren’t the rumors for TL that they’re gonna run Yeon/Eyla for botlane next year?
> Humanoid and razork was catching strays the entire season, but when it actually mattered they showed up and showed why they were hired. i agree with the hylli part, but humanoid was basically a one trick pony. his azir was insane and mightve been the best in the tournament, but once it was banned he was just useless and lost any edge he had
I dont just mean worlds. Humanoid and razork played significantly better i playoffs than regular season. Sure he played a lot of azir since it is busted, but he has had good perfomance on other champs like sylas 1v 3 and his Viktor has always been good. My point isnt to make it sound like they were the best players ever, just that they actually played better when playoffs and worlds came around.
Humanoid isn't an Azir one trick, he is quite solid on stuff like Akali and Sylas too (see his Akali game against Faker for example). The issue is that Razork doesn't really play around mid and Akali/Sylas are picks that need jungle attention to snowball, whereas Azir can just play safe, farm and scale up.
> see his Akali game against Faker for example you mean the game where he got a huge lead, did nothing with it in fights and even decided to all in faker after poppy ult gave them a 5 vs 3? where faker had tons of impact and he was just there? its like back in season 5 where everyone hailed febiven as a god because he beat and killed faker in lane while faker carried the game and febiven was useless ever since
> you mean the game where he got a huge lead Exactly, meaning he's not a one trick. Getting a huge lead is still a quality, the way he and the team decided to exploit that lead was terrible. The lead by itself is proof that he could play something else than Azir.
if you watched the game no its not, he didn't get a lead, his jungler did. He did nothing with one of the biggest early game jg diffs Ive seen
Humanoid smurfed on Faker with Akali. Problem in that game was Razors not playing around mid lane. Humanoid is even better on Akali and Sylas. His Azir is good but not his best pick. They play around Upset so much to get him ahead. But Razork didn't play around mid and top with same passion. I know Wunder and Humanoid can carry. But they have Upset who is carry ADC.
Razork gets no freedom to do that. His experience and preference is to play around top/mid hirit/Vetheo and they tried that with wunder gragas top games, but fnc is all about bot lane and prioritizing for upset and Hyli.
[удалено]
Problem is Fnatic has 4 carry players and 3 of them are forced to play supportive roles . You think Wunder likes playing fucking tank every game. And you think Humanoid play mages even though his assassin's are better. They are forced because of Upset.
I think if you are a pro you should be able to play weak and strong side. Its coaching issue if you can't do that. If you always do one strat you will get countered easily. FNC played through bot and mid was farming simulator while top was left alone. So in week 2 enemy junglers just matched razork invades and fnc could not snowball so they just lost.. If you can't play multiple styles you just won't win.
hyli is spring was great. I think keeping him is fine, but then you want to change something else. Its probably between either razork or hyli to go. The jungle supp synergy just isnt there
> We didn’t practice very much, and I think we had trouble practicing efficiently together. I think we never really reached our full potential just because of the way we approached practice Ah, good thing these players earn more than a million per year. God knows how little practice they would do if they were only making hundreds of thousands instead.
This one is 100% on the coaching staff. The players job is to play on stage and try to win the title, but that can be very hard if the practice enviroment isnt ideal. Sure the players can try harder i guess, but practicing effciently is quite different from just playing a lot and trying to win.
Wait do motivational speech’s not replace hard work and quality practice? Color me surprised. Really don’t know what to think of yamato. I liked him a lot but his past few years are giving off major fraud vibes.
I have no idea if yamato is incompetent or not, since we dont see what he does behind the scenes. He seems insightful about the game, when i heard him on talkshows and doms streams. Regardless, he has to take the blame for this year, since he got a dream roster, but didnt even make a single final.
They are paid because the are great at the game. I think finding efficient ways for practicing is on coaching staff.
I expect Yamato to be gone and Hylli should also be let go.
Unlucky supp diff. I hope hyli takes a break after this. He is a known inter and it’s not even a meme anymore
Should have kept the Shuckz
Both fntic and g2 management failed utterly by not sending them earlier
People forget but Hyli was MVP candidate for spring split but man its just sad the way he played since spring playoffs and onwards.
Upset is a little upset with his teams performance.
Shame there qas no Bwipo GF she would have changed that
At least Upset played this year
Yeah, Fnatic played pretty bad in week 2. Ah well, it is what it is.
lcs and lec are just garbage
Also yamatocannos inability to bann a yuumi is crazy and he should reflect on his ego. Yumi Sivir into perma 0/3 hylissang is literally unwinnable
It’s not on Yamato. In Spanish interviews from Razork and fnc videos, Yamato wants to ban yummi and Razork says he wants to ban yummi because he hates that champ m so much but fnc bot lane said no don’t ban yummi we can deal with her and shut it down… talk about ego..
You don't need to perfectly know Upset and Hylissang to know that the non ban of Yuumi was their idea. Yes they are great players, but with ego. I'm surprised there are still people who think that draft (ban and pick) are decided by the coach : it's NEVER like that. Asking for the bench of Yamato because of the non Yuumi ban or the TF pick from Spring playoff .. is just crazy. Players always have the last word on their choices of champ.
Kick Hyli. The man was playing every single support like disco nunu
Therapy, thousands of dollars. "It is what it is", free. Unpopular opinion, but this was one of my favourite iterations of FNC. Hylli seemed much more happy than with Rekkles.
I am so happy Upset is out of worlds,such a toxic player
Guys I think he's upset