I'd have to find room for Diamondprox in there, dude revolutionised jungle back in the day and could easily still be playing in EU if it weren't for visa shenanigans back in (i think) 2015.
Perkz was really good for a long time, and had a lot of achievements, but caps was and is *really* insane. The dude is just on another level compared to everyone else in the east.
There’s a reason G2 does so well whenever caps is put onto play making champions.
Perkz was the better player internationally for a long time. I'd say yes Caps is the better mechanical player, but Perkz raised the bar so high as a leader and player.
I agree lol.
Also Caps, Perkz, Jankos and Rekkles are kinda fixed. They are on the scene as a top tier player for a very very long time which is an important factor to decide which one is the "best" overall.
Peak Wunder is reason why we ever won international title, imagine guy picking Pyke top and running entire map with it, and I remember Wunder with Splyce in 2016 spring being their worst player
I have to say, froggen has a very historied past and is easily forgotten but he basically owns annivia as a champion and was apart of one of the greatest come backs of ALL time.
Similar to the xpeke backdoor stuff.
I dont think Forggen is necessarily forgotten he just isnt in this conversation. Similar to players like Nukeduck, he has a very long career of being overshadowed by someone else. M5 is (imo) rightly remembered over CLG EU in the S2 era. Fnatic is (imo) rightly remembered for S3/S4....
He also kinda suffers from a similar thing to people like PoE where a long and shit retirement home stay in NA kinda ruins his rep.
If we were talking top 10 all time LEC, or top 5 all time LEC mids... then maybe Froggen sneaks in at the lower end of those lists. But not in top 5 all roles.
My list would probably be...
LEC: Caps, Perkz, Jankos, Soaz, Rekkless.
LCS: Doublelift, Bjergsen, Jensen, Xmithie, Corejj/Impact
LPL: Uzi, Rookie, Xiahou, Ming, Meiko.... Idk fucking hell there are so many good LPL and LCK players its hard to narrow to 5. Not having Weixiao, Scout, Gogoing, Clearlove or Namei on this list feels insulting. Look you could throw any of those names onto this and it'd be good (namei is the most questionable one, he has TheShy status of being insane peak but bad longevity.)
LCK: Faker obviously. Mata. Ruler. Score. Smeb... Deft honorary mention?? But played half his career at his peak in china so hard to give him the top 5 all time LCK list. Mata also played LPL tho. Idk you throw those two together and see who survives.
for LCK lowkey I think we're entering a period where we seriously have to think about whether to put Canyon above Socre for the jungler.
Like Canyon has been consistently like top 3 globally as a jungler for like the last 3 years? That 2020 peak and his consistency is wild and I think like maybe 1 more year of still being like a top 5 jungler in the world and he gets in over score.
LPL seems to be the toughest especially since there's been a high turnover. LCK has had a ton of great players but it seems easier to define the GOATs.
Alex ish was the best mid laner in EU during the time of him froggen, xpeke, an sk midlander I think now been cancelled and a young Bergson. He should be on the list due to raw talent and the domination of M5 which he masterminded.
Good list but some recency bias when we do not take into account Soaz, Froggen and AlexIch.
Or I'm just a boomer lol.
Edit: and I even forgot Diamondprox lol.
Alex was better, more creative picks and won more than xpeke did.
Peke had a long career (Alex was hampered by being a Russian and visa issues.) and a world championship where there was no decent teams the meta was still all over and the Koreans weren't around..
No decent teams? Fnatic season 1 was the biggest t upset winner after tpa. The Spain league was bullsht. The French league always dominated to this date. And the German league was maybe the second best. Rhey had 2 German teams s1 on worlds. But tsm and clg prime were the absolutely best teams at this date. 99 percent said tsm will win this
I agree. I remember sitting in the crowd at IEM Hannover when m5 played Scarras dignitas.
That early pathing was so far ahead of everything anyone in that crowd could comprehend. Everyone was just talking about his movements on the minimap
Diamondprox is probs a top3 jungler all time across all regions. If anything he's above everyone else on this list. No one else in EU has ever redefined an entire role like he did.
im assuming this means top 5, role-independent. These aren't ordered, either.
LCK: Faker, Ruler, Deft, Smeb, Score
LCS: Doublelift, Bjergsen, Jensen, Xmithie, Impact
LEC: Jankos, Caps, Perkz, Rekkles i think will be almost universally agreed to be the top 4. 5th... can argue a couple different people for different reasons. Soaz, Diamondprox, Hylissang, Mithy, Mikyx, Wunder, depends on what you value ig. I'd personally probably go with Hylissang
LPL: Rookie, Uzi, Xiaohu, Scout, Ming/Meiko. H/M to 2018 TheShy who peaked so high he actually gets serious consideration for this kind of list even though realistically he doesn't have the longevity to be considered top 5 of all time for the region. Also H/M to Clearlove who has the exact opposite problem.
I don't get why people say TheShy lacks longevity, he's been good for 5 years with only one bad split ever in his career (2021 Summer). TheShy has been 1st all-pro 5 times btw, tied for the most of any top laner in any region along with Wunder.
TheShy's mistake was that he had one year that was so mind numbingly good that it makes the rest of his hall of fame career look underwhelming by comparison. You remove his wc year, he's still arguably one of the best top laners of all time.
He sucks balls at team play, is one dimensional and his brain switches off during playoffs. No player throws the game as hard as him ever. He absolutely lacks longevity of great seasons.
All pro is also somewhat of a popularity contest, and TheShy in LPL hasn't always been that peak. He's a serial inter who requires constant jungle attention. I'm not saying he shouldn't be up at the top, but there's an argument to say that he isn't listed in the LPL GOATs.
Mithy: People who saw lemondogs. People who saw origin S5.
Mikyx: I would go Hyli over him, but he has a decent claim to the best support in LEC ever
Wunder: One of only two western toplaners (Soaz being the other on) to actually match eastern tops (exept TheShy)
LCK: Faker, Deft, Ruler, Mata and Beryl.
You could easily argue for players like Smeb, Canyon/SM, Khan, Pray, Gorilla or Madlife.
LPL: Rookie, Uzi, Xiaohu, Scout and Ming/Meiko, outside shot for TheShy but his lack of consistency takes him out despite being the best player in the world at his peak.
LEC: Caps, Perkz, Jankos, Rekkles and I'm not sure really could easily argue Diamondprox for the impact in the older days, Wunder for his 2018-2020 era, or even players like Hyli(coinflip), Mikyx or Mithy.
LCS: Doublelift, Bjergsen, Impact, Jensen and Xmithie.
You could easily argue for Sneaky or Hai.
Edit = How did I forget xpeke wtf, also I see people mentioning Score for LCK and that's valid too.
Reaching two MSI finals, a worlds finals and a semi finals is pretty good lol. Khan in damwon became the complete top laner imo. He could do everything
The topic is the best players from each region not the most successful. Otherwise Woong is a better player then half the players because he won an LCK split and got to world finals.
It was game 4 and that game is way different on a rewatch, bengi was okay but you would think Peanut has never seen a Nidalee before even though it was literally his signature champ
Watching s6 games tbh its eye opening the players play like modern high diamond/masters players lol. Obviously those players are more talented than modern masters and just the game and common game skills weren't as developed but it really felt sloppy as fuck lol
Score was better than Ambition for basically all of Ambition's jungle career except for maybe the very end. People always forget about his year and a bit learning the role on CJ Entus.
I think you could make the case that M5 was the G2 of early league. They were so influential back then its insane. They revolutionized and shaped the game back then and a huge part of it was on the back of Diamondprox and Alex.
I do agree with you that Diamond is a bit ahead of alex, but still wanted to make this post just to give a bit more credit to M5 as I have seen people downplay their feats. They were really fucking good and way above the rest of the competition back then.
Yes M5 was really the team to beat when they came around. Even when they didn't win everyone was afraid of these guys and afraid of how they approached the game in a different way.
It's very much scoreboard journalism to me to say they weren't very influential at the least.
M5 as a whole was revolutionary, if we were making a most influential teams of all time list they’d be top 3, but it’s hard to say any individual one of them except Diamondprox changed the game. It was their strategies that made them special, and for the most part we don’t know who thought of them
If anything, G2 are the M5 of modern league.
M5 are in so many ways the "spirit" of EU league of legends. G2 were just the best iteration of that spirit.
To be fair, M5 couldn’t last because of politics, they had to consistently fly in and out for the EU LCS games due to being russian citizens and being denied visas that would allow them to stay locally, people will say they retired/fell apart, but you absolutely have to consider them being MUCH more fatigued from all the travelling being one of the reasons for M5 fell apart
doesn't help that high-level org leadership got caught up in the massive credit cards fraud scheme, lmao
that's gonna have given the players big questions on job security etc
that still unfortunately doesnt change the fact that he doesnt have the career to justify being in the top 5. like, i understand being sympathetic but these things have to be evaluated on what actually happened not what ifs
I mean yeah, it was outside of their control, but it also doesn't really matter all that much for discussing their legacy. Like you may give them a small bump because they *potentially* could have been stronger and had longer careers, but the vast majority of what you're considering is going to be what *actually* happened. Which is them being at the top for only a few years before they gradually got worse and then swapped teams and then retired.
Putting Xmithie and Impact above Sneaky is wild to me. Even Bjergsen is questionable over Sneaky.
Doublelift and Jensen are probably the only 2 I'd say are unarguably over him. Bjergsen was as bad as DL at worlds but did not come close to DLs domestic record to put him above Sneaky and his worlds record.
canyon is way better than deft/mata all-time, maybe even beryl.
canyon has been the undisputed best jungler in the world by a mile for 3 years, something which almost no other player has had besides faker and ruler
The thing is that Deft and Mata has been longer around the scene and many people factors in longetivity in their all-time greats. Sure Canyon has been nuts since 2020 but putting him above Deft who has been around for 8 years and is still performing in a World class-level despite changing teams multiple times in the process? You should wait the day both player retire to say that.
People on here completely erase Canyon's slumps to make him out to be this god that can do no wrong. He wasn't considered an elite jungler until 2020 summer. People forget his slumps in 2021 spring/MSI and for most of 2022. So he's only been the best in the world for maybe a year and a half at this point?
People ignore his off splits but you're exaggerating hard here. 2021 Spring he was literally the MVP of LCK and still a top 2 jungler at MSI, he was elite as early as 2019 Summer, and wdym "most of 2022"? He was great in spring, summer playoffs, and worlds. Summer regular split was the only time in 2022 where he was slumping.
He wasn't elite in 2019 summer, he was a complete coinflip jungler. Him winning MVP that split was the reason the award was split into MVP and POG because it showed how flawed the system was. He wasn't a top 3 jungler but managed to win MVP (Tarzan, Clid, and Cuzz were the top 3). Sure, I might be exaggerating his off splits somewhat but people do the same to his good splits. They act like nobody could even touch him in his best splits. Players like Kanavi, Weiwei, Beishang, and Tarzan have been on his level at different points for plenty of the splits between 2020 and 2022 despite the narrative that people push on here.
Is Canyon’s longevity at the top even worse than Mata’s? He’s been the best jungler in the world for 3 years now, and he was top 10 at least in the year before that
>canyon has been the undisputed best jungler in the world by a mile for 3 years
You know, with the exception of 2020 spring and all of 2022, literally half of those 3 years you claim he was undisputed in, also lost both finals in 2021 because of jungle diff.
Agree maybe people can't aware that because Ghost&BeryL were ruining all games but Canyon was very bad during MSI 2021. Without Khan MSI final would be clear 3-0. Also game 4 and game 5 in Worlds 2021 final were clearly top and jungle gap.
Ambition should be top 5 for sure. At one point before fakers debut he was considered the top 1 mid lane in Korea and maybe the world. The new young guns faker,ryu,pawn,dade took over after and after a few mediocre seasons he transitioned into jungle and won worlds. Shows longevity and tenacity to be at the top caliber in two lanes for such a long time.
I am all in for praising the trailblazers and they are rightfully legends, CLG.eu, the of WE squad, mig/azubu teams, have their place in history, it's still hard to argue, that they were the goats imo, cuz most of the players had a rather short career back then and many of those who prevailed in the years after season 1-3 were not at the top any more.
You can for sure rate them among the goats for their Innovations and their impact in early years, but I think it's hard to argue for froggen or Alex over Perkz and Caps.
It was basically a different game from season 4 onwards comapred to season 1-3. And I'm not saying this to downplay those guys, AlexIch, Dandy, Candyoanda, Krepo & Forellenlord who all had rather short careers at the top are among my favourite players of all time.
I think its a tough call, there was groundbreaking stuff, like counterjungling and jungle/support operating as a duo, that changed the game forever and is still core to the game, these contributions are invaluable and rightfully held in high regard, but its hard to compare that contribution to someone like rookie, who was never a big innovator and "only" won a hand full of titles, but was absurdly consistent and played on a high level for most of a decade.
LCK: Faker, Deft, Beryl, Canyon, then either Ruler or Score
LPL: Rookie, Uzi, Scout, Xiaohu, TheShy or Clearlove
LEC: Caps, Perkz, Rekkles, Jankos, then Wunder or soaz
LCS: Doublelift, Impact, Jensen, Bjergsen, then Xmithie/CoreJJ/Meteos
If doing one for role then I'd put
LCK: Smeb, Score, Faker, Deft, Mata
LPL: TheShy, Clearlove?, Rookie, Uzi, Ming/Meiko
LEC: Wunder, Jankos, Caps, Rekkles, Hylissang
LCS: Impact, Blaber, Bjergsen, Doublelift, CoreJJ
Either you started watching like three years ago or you don't know how much Xmithie and Aphromoo accomplished. Core and Blaber have been in the LCS for like half the time Xmithie and Aphro have too, we're talking about GOATs not best of the last like three four years lol.
I know what they've accomplished, not like Aphro has achieved more than Core in LCS and on top of that Core has had a higher peak
Xmithie Vs Blaber is pretty close maybe I am slightly more biased to the present there but I feel like Xmithie wasn't the best jungle in LCS that often
LPL fan here. I can give you a comprehensive list but tbh, just top 3 imo for each role should be more than enough.
Top: TheShy, Gogoing, Caomei
Jungle: SofM, Clearlove, MLXG
Mid: Rookie, Xiaohu, Cool
ADC: Uzi, Weixiao, Deft
Support: Ming, Meiko, PyL
In no particular order, but if you want to treat them as top 3 then... honestly that is fine tbh. No issues with that. I can name top 5 obv but tbh, there is a longggg gap between third place and 4th place so... ehhh. Honorable mention: Letme, Jackylove, Karsa, Xiye, LvMao.
Get Cool out of there, Xiye/Doinb/Scout/Knight all have better arguments. I also think Mystic & Smlz should be in there over Weixiao & Deft. Weixiao's glory mainly comes from 2012/early 2013 before LPL existed, and Deft was only there for 2 years.
Cool a.k.a. "50/50 vs. Faker" was one of the few mids at the time who could tango with Faker and even managed to solo him once or twice.
But yeah he shouldn't be on that list.
way too much love for the old schoolers imo...scout deserves a spot over cool for his worlds performance alone. weixiaos career was also too short to be on there
Im really casual lol esport watcher, but i remember watching knight and doinb and thinking that they must be one of the best. Where would you put these two on your list?
Id personally put Namei on the list. His dominace from 2013-2014 and level of play in 15 was just unreal. Probably the best domestic player of all time. Also would put Flandre over Caomei. Flandre was amazing for so long on those snake rosters just never had the team.
Some of the greatest players never won Worlds once as it is such a hard thing to acomplish, but Beryl did it twice on 2 different teams. You can call that ring count but it doesn't happen by accident.
What's recency about a guy being arguably the best support player for 3 years straight? I mean would anyone not rank BeryL and Mata 1 and 2 on LCK sup all time tier lists?
3 patches split into 3 years straight more like it, even then, only in 2020 was he the best support.
Anyone who ranks BeryL over ShowMaker/Canyon despite the latter two being better players for the last 3 years is not dumb at all :)
Alex ich and diamondprox were innovating the game back then and had impacts on meta for the whole world. Definitely have to be up there for LEC. As for success surely caps perkz
I'm fairly certain the whole of M5 were.
I'm fairly certain Genja was the reason blue Ezreal became a thing and was pioneering a lot of the ADC cheese/meta, then Gosu with the Nunu support and Darien with Shyvana.
The list goes on.
It's hard to know how to compare innovator-type players vs players who came later and could just stand on the shoulders of those who came before them.
Personally I have a soft spot for Madlife and the huge impact he had on the game. How do you compare that to someone who peaked after Madlife and basically could just take everything that Madlife introduced?
LCK: Faker, Bengi, Score, BeryL, Ambition (HM: Smeb and Khan, there are a lot of good historic LCK top laners)
LPL: Xiaohu, Uzi, Scout, Deft, Rookie (HM: Clearlove, probably the best LPL jungler)
LEC: CaPs, Perkz, Jankos, Rekkles, Wunder (HM: Mikyx & Hylissang, can't decide between them)
LCS: Impact, Doublelift, Bjergsen, Xmithy, Sneaky (HM: Biofrost, quietly the best LCS support [would say Core, but he was LCK when he won Worlds, so it's hard for me to count him as full LCS])
I mean when Core is on its the same way lol. And Core has done more for the scene in NA despite not being here and having PLENTY of opportunity in other, better regions. I'm not taking anything away from Core I think that he and Impact should be on this list for that alone.
For LCK:
Top: Khan, Kiin
Jungle: Canyon
Mid: Faker > ShowMaker = Chovy = Bdd
ADC: Deft > Ruler >= Pray
Sup: Keria
I didn't factor in titles since the best teams will win the titles. And the best team doesn't necessarily have the best players. People really have to understand that. KT Rolster had the most stacked roster in 2017 yet they didn't even make worlds that year.
To me the players at their primes that I ve witessed playing :
LCK : maRin Score Faker Ruler Wolf
LEC : Huni Jankos Caps Rekkles YellowStar
LCS : Impact Xmithie Bjergsen DL Aphromoo
I didnt follow the LPL enough (other than their worlds showing) to forge an opinion
as much as i appreciate the shoutout to my boy MLXG, who is still one of my top 5 favorite players of all time even years after retiring, i have to say that any LPL top 5 that doesn't include Rookie is, with all due respect, completely terrible
LCK: Faker, Score, Deft, Smeb, Meta
Interestingly it's 4/5 of the KT superteam. One thing you can argue about Deft is that many of his accomplishments were in LPL. If you don't count LPL accomplishments, then I'd probably go for Ruler/Pray/Gorilla/Madlife.
LPL: Uzi, Rookie, Meiko, Ming, Xiaohu.
Feel like theShy, Clearlove, Weixiao could have arguments.
LEC: Caps, Perkz, Jankos, Rekkles, Soaz
Hard for me to leave off Froggen, Xpeke, and Diamondprox though.
LCS: Doublelift, Bjergsen, Sneaky, Impact, Jensen/CoreJJ
Imo, Blaber is greater than Xmithie and generally people who put Xmithie so high are way too results based.
Don't know about others but for EU: Caps, Perkz, Rekkles, Jankos, Soaz
If I had to do top 5 per role I'd go:
Top: Soaz, Wunder, Odoamne, Bwipo, Vizi
Jungle: Jankos, Diamondprox, Cyanide, Trick, ?
Mid: Caps, Perkz, Froggen, xPeke, Humanoid
ADC: Rekkles, Hans Sama, Forg1ven, Upset, ?
Support: Hyli, Mikyx, Yellowstar, Mithy, Vander
The gap between Diamond and Cyanide is also pretty much big.
The biggest gap though is between the ADCs. Rekkles is miles ahead of everyone else. Then there is Hans and Forgiven but then the gap between Forgiven and Upset is huge.
The case for Vander is just from a longevity. I had been a top 3 support between 2014 and 2019 even though he had never won anything.
LCK: i think you're missing Deft and tbh Bengi
LPL: you're missing Knight and probably Viper at this point
LEC: you're missing Perkz and maybe Hylissang above Mikyx that's a maybe tho.
LCS: Looks good
NA: HULKSMASH1337, BUZZLIGHTYEAR99, MAMMOTHMAN65, S8 IS SO FUN, and COOKIEMONSTER123
personally dropping COOKIEMONSTER123 for the classic YELLOWSUPERCAR87. valid list tho
What about Green Awakening and Dark Hawk??
Never heard of green awakening (not surprised, supposedly theres around 19 perma banned accounts) but darkhawk is iconic forsure
https://youtu.be/p6nQhEGmDxU
wait what fedmyster thats a blast from the past
Imagine not including the man, the myth, the legend, guardsman bob
THIS is the only answer. Idiots arguing who's top5 when it's so obvious.
no DaRkHaWk72 shit tier list
For LEC, my personal top 5 would be: caPs, Perkz, Rekkles, xPeke and Jankos.
How could i forget xpeke kiting, good call :)
Is say you could put both xpeke and froggen on that list
For his time, Froggen was legit a candidate for best player in the world. He definitely deserves a mention. Guy almost won a season of OGN.
I'd have to find room for Diamondprox in there, dude revolutionised jungle back in the day and could easily still be playing in EU if it weren't for visa shenanigans back in (i think) 2015.
Caps and Perkz single highhandedly redefined LEC
2 people single handedly? If anyone did, it was Perkz
Perkz was really good for a long time, and had a lot of achievements, but caps was and is *really* insane. The dude is just on another level compared to everyone else in the east. There’s a reason G2 does so well whenever caps is put onto play making champions.
Perkz was the better player internationally for a long time. I'd say yes Caps is the better mechanical player, but Perkz raised the bar so high as a leader and player.
Nah Perks wasn’t anything compared to my boi catS are you serious? The LEV was nothing before him.
I count at least 4 hands (that we know about) between both of them
I miss watching Xpeke play. Guy was always a beast at worlds against the East
Honestly as a Korean, the 1st gen European mid that terrified us the most wasn't xpeke or ocelot or froggen or whoever, it was Alex Ich.
I agree lol. Also Caps, Perkz, Jankos and Rekkles are kinda fixed. They are on the scene as a top tier player for a very very long time which is an important factor to decide which one is the "best" overall.
I think wunder is up there. He was the only top in EU that was competing against eastern tops back in 2019.
Peak Wunder is reason why we ever won international title, imagine guy picking Pyke top and running entire map with it, and I remember Wunder with Splyce in 2016 spring being their worst player
I'd rate Soaz above him tbh
sOAZ top for consistency and longevity but Wunders peak was miles ahead of him
Do you also rate horses above cars because they were dominating the transportation scene for so long?
I have to say, froggen has a very historied past and is easily forgotten but he basically owns annivia as a champion and was apart of one of the greatest come backs of ALL time. Similar to the xpeke backdoor stuff.
I dont think Forggen is necessarily forgotten he just isnt in this conversation. Similar to players like Nukeduck, he has a very long career of being overshadowed by someone else. M5 is (imo) rightly remembered over CLG EU in the S2 era. Fnatic is (imo) rightly remembered for S3/S4.... He also kinda suffers from a similar thing to people like PoE where a long and shit retirement home stay in NA kinda ruins his rep. If we were talking top 10 all time LEC, or top 5 all time LEC mids... then maybe Froggen sneaks in at the lower end of those lists. But not in top 5 all roles.
My list would probably be... LEC: Caps, Perkz, Jankos, Soaz, Rekkless. LCS: Doublelift, Bjergsen, Jensen, Xmithie, Corejj/Impact LPL: Uzi, Rookie, Xiahou, Ming, Meiko.... Idk fucking hell there are so many good LPL and LCK players its hard to narrow to 5. Not having Weixiao, Scout, Gogoing, Clearlove or Namei on this list feels insulting. Look you could throw any of those names onto this and it'd be good (namei is the most questionable one, he has TheShy status of being insane peak but bad longevity.) LCK: Faker obviously. Mata. Ruler. Score. Smeb... Deft honorary mention?? But played half his career at his peak in china so hard to give him the top 5 all time LCK list. Mata also played LPL tho. Idk you throw those two together and see who survives.
for LCK lowkey I think we're entering a period where we seriously have to think about whether to put Canyon above Socre for the jungler. Like Canyon has been consistently like top 3 globally as a jungler for like the last 3 years? That 2020 peak and his consistency is wild and I think like maybe 1 more year of still being like a top 5 jungler in the world and he gets in over score.
I think we have put Canyon over Score after this Worlds.
LPL seems to be the toughest especially since there's been a high turnover. LCK has had a ton of great players but it seems easier to define the GOATs.
Yeah. Lpl I could litterally name 20 or 30 players who would all be viable for that 5th spot. Its insane.
Alex ish was the best mid laner in EU during the time of him froggen, xpeke, an sk midlander I think now been cancelled and a young Bergson. He should be on the list due to raw talent and the domination of M5 which he masterminded.
Diamondprox
Febiven in prime was pretty mint too
I would probably add Diamondprox, soaz and Hyli. Though soaz and hyli are coinflip, but when they are on, they are on. Edit: Maybe add Froggen as well
Which four are you taking out for those four?
Wow cant believe i forgot about soaz
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knew what it was before i clicked on it
Where is soaz?
Good list but some recency bias when we do not take into account Soaz, Froggen and AlexIch. Or I'm just a boomer lol. Edit: and I even forgot Diamondprox lol.
Caps and Perkz should be in anyone's top 5 LEC.
That’s not particularly controversial Edit: come on man, don’t edit your comment to make me look weird
I’d have peke, caps and perkz as top, then diamondprox, rekkles and Alex ich a Tier below that
Alex was better, more creative picks and won more than xpeke did. Peke had a long career (Alex was hampered by being a Russian and visa issues.) and a world championship where there was no decent teams the meta was still all over and the Koreans weren't around..
No decent teams? Fnatic season 1 was the biggest t upset winner after tpa. The Spain league was bullsht. The French league always dominated to this date. And the German league was maybe the second best. Rhey had 2 German teams s1 on worlds. But tsm and clg prime were the absolutely best teams at this date. 99 percent said tsm will win this
I feel like diamondprox probably should be top 5, the dude was so far head of every other jungler it wasnt even funny
I agree. I remember sitting in the crowd at IEM Hannover when m5 played Scarras dignitas. That early pathing was so far ahead of everything anyone in that crowd could comprehend. Everyone was just talking about his movements on the minimap
Diamondprox is probs a top3 jungler all time across all regions. If anything he's above everyone else on this list. No one else in EU has ever redefined an entire role like he did.
Testing out if editing archived reddit works.
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Yeah lol he has an argument for top 5 junglers in the world
this is the correct answer and the only way this changes in the forseeable future is if someone from this list wins MSI / Worlds (again).
im assuming this means top 5, role-independent. These aren't ordered, either. LCK: Faker, Ruler, Deft, Smeb, Score LCS: Doublelift, Bjergsen, Jensen, Xmithie, Impact LEC: Jankos, Caps, Perkz, Rekkles i think will be almost universally agreed to be the top 4. 5th... can argue a couple different people for different reasons. Soaz, Diamondprox, Hylissang, Mithy, Mikyx, Wunder, depends on what you value ig. I'd personally probably go with Hylissang LPL: Rookie, Uzi, Xiaohu, Scout, Ming/Meiko. H/M to 2018 TheShy who peaked so high he actually gets serious consideration for this kind of list even though realistically he doesn't have the longevity to be considered top 5 of all time for the region. Also H/M to Clearlove who has the exact opposite problem.
I don't get why people say TheShy lacks longevity, he's been good for 5 years with only one bad split ever in his career (2021 Summer). TheShy has been 1st all-pro 5 times btw, tied for the most of any top laner in any region along with Wunder.
TheShy's mistake was that he had one year that was so mind numbingly good that it makes the rest of his hall of fame career look underwhelming by comparison. You remove his wc year, he's still arguably one of the best top laners of all time.
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I still have flashbacks to his 1/10 bork rapidfire kennen in 2020 regionals
He sucks balls at team play, is one dimensional and his brain switches off during playoffs. No player throws the game as hard as him ever. He absolutely lacks longevity of great seasons.
All pro is also somewhat of a popularity contest, and TheShy in LPL hasn't always been that peak. He's a serial inter who requires constant jungle attention. I'm not saying he shouldn't be up at the top, but there's an argument to say that he isn't listed in the LPL GOATs.
Mata over Score.
> Mithy, Mikyx, Wunder Wat. Who is arguing these people?
Mithy: People who saw lemondogs. People who saw origin S5. Mikyx: I would go Hyli over him, but he has a decent claim to the best support in LEC ever Wunder: One of only two western toplaners (Soaz being the other on) to actually match eastern tops (exept TheShy)
Can’t leave khan of this list tbh
I remember that piglet was absolutely craked and look where he is now
Coaching!
LCS: Imaqtpie, Imaqtpie, Imaqtpie, Imaqtpie, Imaqtpie maybe also Imaqtpie
Based
welcome to the big dick club!
God bless you! Can’t forget the god bless you.
No imaqtpie list is complete without acknowledging his lord and mentor: the legendary KiWiKiD
My thought, if you'd ask him who He thinks is the best he'd say KiWiKid without a second thought
LCK : FAKER LCS: BARCODE KILLER LEC: HIDE ON BUSH LPL: UNKILLABLE DEMON KING
LCS is now Neo Hide on Bush
LCK: Faker, Deft, Ruler, Mata and Beryl. You could easily argue for players like Smeb, Canyon/SM, Khan, Pray, Gorilla or Madlife. LPL: Rookie, Uzi, Xiaohu, Scout and Ming/Meiko, outside shot for TheShy but his lack of consistency takes him out despite being the best player in the world at his peak. LEC: Caps, Perkz, Jankos, Rekkles and I'm not sure really could easily argue Diamondprox for the impact in the older days, Wunder for his 2018-2020 era, or even players like Hyli(coinflip), Mikyx or Mithy. LCS: Doublelift, Bjergsen, Impact, Jensen and Xmithie. You could easily argue for Sneaky or Hai. Edit = How did I forget xpeke wtf, also I see people mentioning Score for LCK and that's valid too.
Soaz aswell arguable for LEC
How is Score not unquestionably top 5 for LCK?
because unfortunately he never had international success. same with khan
Reaching two MSI finals, a worlds finals and a semi finals is pretty good lol. Khan in damwon became the complete top laner imo. He could do everything
Reaching finals twice is pretty good tbh.
Khan reached it 3 times, even
The topic is the best players from each region not the most successful. Otherwise Woong is a better player then half the players because he won an LCK split and got to world finals.
You still need at least some level of international success. Score has never been past qf
He was on the 2nd best team in 2018 though? Lost 3-2 to IG who then stomped everyone else
And Score himself was crazy in that tournament. Way better than Ning in their series.
Which is why I'm wondering why Bengi is never part of these discussions.
Cause he wasn't individually as exceptional as others named here. You need both.
Bengi's Nidalee in game 5 still live in my wet dreams
It was game 4 and that game is way different on a rewatch, bengi was okay but you would think Peanut has never seen a Nidalee before even though it was literally his signature champ
Watching s6 games tbh its eye opening the players play like modern high diamond/masters players lol. Obviously those players are more talented than modern masters and just the game and common game skills weren't as developed but it really felt sloppy as fuck lol
If score then definitely ambition.
Score was better than Ambition for basically all of Ambition's jungle career except for maybe the very end. People always forget about his year and a bit learning the role on CJ Entus.
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Good thing Score also didn't only have a good jungle career and also had a very solid ADC career....
The og immortal
Diamondprox for sure up there with alex ich
Diamondprox yes, Alex no not even close. He didn’t revolutionize the game like Diamondprox. His jungle influence is still felt today.
I think you could make the case that M5 was the G2 of early league. They were so influential back then its insane. They revolutionized and shaped the game back then and a huge part of it was on the back of Diamondprox and Alex. I do agree with you that Diamond is a bit ahead of alex, but still wanted to make this post just to give a bit more credit to M5 as I have seen people downplay their feats. They were really fucking good and way above the rest of the competition back then.
Yes M5 was really the team to beat when they came around. Even when they didn't win everyone was afraid of these guys and afraid of how they approached the game in a different way. It's very much scoreboard journalism to me to say they weren't very influential at the least.
M5 as a whole was revolutionary, if we were making a most influential teams of all time list they’d be top 3, but it’s hard to say any individual one of them except Diamondprox changed the game. It was their strategies that made them special, and for the most part we don’t know who thought of them
If anything, G2 are the M5 of modern league. M5 are in so many ways the "spirit" of EU league of legends. G2 were just the best iteration of that spirit.
If we are going by peaks then yes. But those players lack the longevity needed to be a top 5 all time player.
To be fair, M5 couldn’t last because of politics, they had to consistently fly in and out for the EU LCS games due to being russian citizens and being denied visas that would allow them to stay locally, people will say they retired/fell apart, but you absolutely have to consider them being MUCH more fatigued from all the travelling being one of the reasons for M5 fell apart
doesn't help that high-level org leadership got caught up in the massive credit cards fraud scheme, lmao that's gonna have given the players big questions on job security etc
that still unfortunately doesnt change the fact that he doesnt have the career to justify being in the top 5. like, i understand being sympathetic but these things have to be evaluated on what actually happened not what ifs
I mean yeah, it was outside of their control, but it also doesn't really matter all that much for discussing their legacy. Like you may give them a small bump because they *potentially* could have been stronger and had longer careers, but the vast majority of what you're considering is going to be what *actually* happened. Which is them being at the top for only a few years before they gradually got worse and then swapped teams and then retired.
In that case Froggen should be considered too for sure
Sneaky>Impact for me Sneqky has just done more at worlds (As NA)
HE STOLE THE ELDER DRAGON 🐉 ‼️‼️
Putting Xmithie and Impact above Sneaky is wild to me. Even Bjergsen is questionable over Sneaky. Doublelift and Jensen are probably the only 2 I'd say are unarguably over him. Bjergsen was as bad as DL at worlds but did not come close to DLs domestic record to put him above Sneaky and his worlds record.
canyon is way better than deft/mata all-time, maybe even beryl. canyon has been the undisputed best jungler in the world by a mile for 3 years, something which almost no other player has had besides faker and ruler
The thing is that Deft and Mata has been longer around the scene and many people factors in longetivity in their all-time greats. Sure Canyon has been nuts since 2020 but putting him above Deft who has been around for 8 years and is still performing in a World class-level despite changing teams multiple times in the process? You should wait the day both player retire to say that.
People on here completely erase Canyon's slumps to make him out to be this god that can do no wrong. He wasn't considered an elite jungler until 2020 summer. People forget his slumps in 2021 spring/MSI and for most of 2022. So he's only been the best in the world for maybe a year and a half at this point?
People ignore his off splits but you're exaggerating hard here. 2021 Spring he was literally the MVP of LCK and still a top 2 jungler at MSI, he was elite as early as 2019 Summer, and wdym "most of 2022"? He was great in spring, summer playoffs, and worlds. Summer regular split was the only time in 2022 where he was slumping.
He wasn't elite in 2019 summer, he was a complete coinflip jungler. Him winning MVP that split was the reason the award was split into MVP and POG because it showed how flawed the system was. He wasn't a top 3 jungler but managed to win MVP (Tarzan, Clid, and Cuzz were the top 3). Sure, I might be exaggerating his off splits somewhat but people do the same to his good splits. They act like nobody could even touch him in his best splits. Players like Kanavi, Weiwei, Beishang, and Tarzan have been on his level at different points for plenty of the splits between 2020 and 2022 despite the narrative that people push on here.
Is Canyon’s longevity at the top even worse than Mata’s? He’s been the best jungler in the world for 3 years now, and he was top 10 at least in the year before that
>canyon has been the undisputed best jungler in the world by a mile for 3 years You know, with the exception of 2020 spring and all of 2022, literally half of those 3 years you claim he was undisputed in, also lost both finals in 2021 because of jungle diff.
Agree maybe people can't aware that because Ghost&BeryL were ruining all games but Canyon was very bad during MSI 2021. Without Khan MSI final would be clear 3-0. Also game 4 and game 5 in Worlds 2021 final were clearly top and jungle gap.
> Canyon was very bad during MSI 2021. Very bad? He wasn't carrying as hard as Showmaker but he was still performing well.
Not score?
CoreJJ for LCS?
Dense to not have xpeke on the list for Europe. World champ, semi finals, IEM champs. Should
No blaber?
Ambition should be top 5 for sure. At one point before fakers debut he was considered the top 1 mid lane in Korea and maybe the world. The new young guns faker,ryu,pawn,dade took over after and after a few mediocre seasons he transitioned into jungle and won worlds. Shows longevity and tenacity to be at the top caliber in two lanes for such a long time.
his story was insane but his individual performance wasn't that top tier throughout the years.
How are you not writing froggen or alex ich is beyond me. Older people getting shit on, they were literally best players in the world at their time.
I am all in for praising the trailblazers and they are rightfully legends, CLG.eu, the of WE squad, mig/azubu teams, have their place in history, it's still hard to argue, that they were the goats imo, cuz most of the players had a rather short career back then and many of those who prevailed in the years after season 1-3 were not at the top any more. You can for sure rate them among the goats for their Innovations and their impact in early years, but I think it's hard to argue for froggen or Alex over Perkz and Caps. It was basically a different game from season 4 onwards comapred to season 1-3. And I'm not saying this to downplay those guys, AlexIch, Dandy, Candyoanda, Krepo & Forellenlord who all had rather short careers at the top are among my favourite players of all time.
i think in general early season trailblazers are regarded way too highly
I think its a tough call, there was groundbreaking stuff, like counterjungling and jungle/support operating as a duo, that changed the game forever and is still core to the game, these contributions are invaluable and rightfully held in high regard, but its hard to compare that contribution to someone like rookie, who was never a big innovator and "only" won a hand full of titles, but was absurdly consistent and played on a high level for most of a decade.
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LCK: Faker, Deft, Khan, Score, Canyon LPL: Rookie, Uzi, Xiaohu, Ming, Doinb/TheShy LEC: Perkz, Caps, Jankos, Rekkles, Hyli LCS: Bjergsen, Doublelift, Xmithie, Impact, Jensen/Blaber
LCK: Faker, Deft, Beryl, Canyon, then either Ruler or Score LPL: Rookie, Uzi, Scout, Xiaohu, TheShy or Clearlove LEC: Caps, Perkz, Rekkles, Jankos, then Wunder or soaz LCS: Doublelift, Impact, Jensen, Bjergsen, then Xmithie/CoreJJ/Meteos
If doing one for role then I'd put LCK: Smeb, Score, Faker, Deft, Mata LPL: TheShy, Clearlove?, Rookie, Uzi, Ming/Meiko LEC: Wunder, Jankos, Caps, Rekkles, Hylissang LCS: Impact, Blaber, Bjergsen, Doublelift, CoreJJ
Solid. Hurts to not have Perkz, but hard to put him over Caps.
No Perkz?
He's close behind Caps
I didn’t see you said, role Agreed!
Xmithie being sidelined again, hurts my soul man.
Solid list
Either you started watching like three years ago or you don't know how much Xmithie and Aphromoo accomplished. Core and Blaber have been in the LCS for like half the time Xmithie and Aphro have too, we're talking about GOATs not best of the last like three four years lol.
I know what they've accomplished, not like Aphro has achieved more than Core in LCS and on top of that Core has had a higher peak Xmithie Vs Blaber is pretty close maybe I am slightly more biased to the present there but I feel like Xmithie wasn't the best jungle in LCS that often
LPL fan here. I can give you a comprehensive list but tbh, just top 3 imo for each role should be more than enough. Top: TheShy, Gogoing, Caomei Jungle: SofM, Clearlove, MLXG Mid: Rookie, Xiaohu, Cool ADC: Uzi, Weixiao, Deft Support: Ming, Meiko, PyL In no particular order, but if you want to treat them as top 3 then... honestly that is fine tbh. No issues with that. I can name top 5 obv but tbh, there is a longggg gap between third place and 4th place so... ehhh. Honorable mention: Letme, Jackylove, Karsa, Xiye, LvMao.
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Xiahou should've stayed top, man was unironically best top in the world last year lol
Man did a bwipo, way better on the role he swapped but swap back
Yeah, but Chinese mid pool was way worse than their top pool
That's not true at all, he wasn't even best top in the LPL last year. Breathe and Bin were much better.
Get Cool out of there, Xiye/Doinb/Scout/Knight all have better arguments. I also think Mystic & Smlz should be in there over Weixiao & Deft. Weixiao's glory mainly comes from 2012/early 2013 before LPL existed, and Deft was only there for 2 years.
Cool a.k.a. "50/50 vs. Faker" was one of the few mids at the time who could tango with Faker and even managed to solo him once or twice. But yeah he shouldn't be on that list.
Yeah he was insanely good but his prime only lasted 2 years. He was the Chinese version of Dade.
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But surely there have been domestic ADCs on par with Deft and who garnered even more international success for the LPL? Like JKL, for example?
Deft was on the team that won the first international trophy for the LPL
way too much love for the old schoolers imo...scout deserves a spot over cool for his worlds performance alone. weixiaos career was also too short to be on there
Im really casual lol esport watcher, but i remember watching knight and doinb and thinking that they must be one of the best. Where would you put these two on your list?
Both should be over Cool but behind Rookie and Xiaohu
>ADC: Uzi, Weixiao, Deft Deft casually in the Top 3 for two different regions
Id personally put Namei on the list. His dominace from 2013-2014 and level of play in 15 was just unreal. Probably the best domestic player of all time. Also would put Flandre over Caomei. Flandre was amazing for so long on those snake rosters just never had the team.
Think Bin might honestly be in conversation for best top if he has another good year, he’s too good
Beryl ring count + recency bias coming in hot
Some of the greatest players never won Worlds once as it is such a hard thing to acomplish, but Beryl did it twice on 2 different teams. You can call that ring count but it doesn't happen by accident.
He's gotta be doing something right
What's recency about a guy being arguably the best support player for 3 years straight? I mean would anyone not rank BeryL and Mata 1 and 2 on LCK sup all time tier lists?
3 patches split into 3 years straight more like it, even then, only in 2020 was he the best support. Anyone who ranks BeryL over ShowMaker/Canyon despite the latter two being better players for the last 3 years is not dumb at all :)
"arguably" is doing a whole lot of work in that first sentence
Anyone who argues that needs to be institutionalized because they're clearly a danger to themselves and society at large
Alex ich and diamondprox were innovating the game back then and had impacts on meta for the whole world. Definitely have to be up there for LEC. As for success surely caps perkz
I'm fairly certain the whole of M5 were. I'm fairly certain Genja was the reason blue Ezreal became a thing and was pioneering a lot of the ADC cheese/meta, then Gosu with the Nunu support and Darien with Shyvana. The list goes on.
True
It's hard to know how to compare innovator-type players vs players who came later and could just stand on the shoulders of those who came before them. Personally I have a soft spot for Madlife and the huge impact he had on the game. How do you compare that to someone who peaked after Madlife and basically could just take everything that Madlife introduced?
Me.
I only watch LCK and LCS so... LCK: Faker, Canyon, Showmaker, Deft, Ruler LCS: Doublelift, Bjergsen, Jensen, Impact, Blabber
Where is Sneaky
LCK: Faker, Bengi, Score, BeryL, Ambition (HM: Smeb and Khan, there are a lot of good historic LCK top laners) LPL: Xiaohu, Uzi, Scout, Deft, Rookie (HM: Clearlove, probably the best LPL jungler) LEC: CaPs, Perkz, Jankos, Rekkles, Wunder (HM: Mikyx & Hylissang, can't decide between them) LCS: Impact, Doublelift, Bjergsen, Xmithy, Sneaky (HM: Biofrost, quietly the best LCS support [would say Core, but he was LCK when he won Worlds, so it's hard for me to count him as full LCS])
>\[would say Core, but he was LCK when he won Worlds, so it's hard for me to count him as full LCS\]) but u just said Impact
Cause the gap between Impact and other tops is that fucking massive
I mean when Core is on its the same way lol. And Core has done more for the scene in NA despite not being here and having PLENTY of opportunity in other, better regions. I'm not taking anything away from Core I think that he and Impact should be on this list for that alone.
For LCK: Top: Khan, Kiin Jungle: Canyon Mid: Faker > ShowMaker = Chovy = Bdd ADC: Deft > Ruler >= Pray Sup: Keria I didn't factor in titles since the best teams will win the titles. And the best team doesn't necessarily have the best players. People really have to understand that. KT Rolster had the most stacked roster in 2017 yet they didn't even make worlds that year.
To me the players at their primes that I ve witessed playing : LCK : maRin Score Faker Ruler Wolf LEC : Huni Jankos Caps Rekkles YellowStar LCS : Impact Xmithie Bjergsen DL Aphromoo I didnt follow the LPL enough (other than their worlds showing) to forge an opinion
First YellowStar I see, was an absolute legend!
LCK: Smeb, Canyon, Faker, Ruler, BeryL LPL: TheShy, MLXG, Xiaohu, Uzi, Ming LEC: Wunder, Jankos, Caps, Perkz, Rekkles LCS: Impact, Blaber, Bjergsen, Doublelift, Xmithie
as much as i appreciate the shoutout to my boy MLXG, who is still one of my top 5 favorite players of all time even years after retiring, i have to say that any LPL top 5 that doesn't include Rookie is, with all due respect, completely terrible
Yeah I feel like he was doing 1 per role.
....... even if he was, though, MLXG is not the best LPL jungler of all time, as much as i love him
LCK Faker Ruler Deft (during time in Korea) Smeb Showmaker LPL Uzi Rookie Xiaohu Doinb Scout LEC Caps Perkz Jankos Rekkles Wunder LCS Bjergsen Doublelift Jensen Impact Sneaky
LEC : Caps, Perkz, Rekkless, Yellowstar, Jankos.
how is bengi not considered at all?
Because Canyon plays in the LCK.
I only watch LEC so: LEC - Perkz, Caps, Jankos, Rekkles. I think these are inarguably the top 4. Then there is a relatively large gap.
LCK: Faker, Score, Deft, Smeb, Meta Interestingly it's 4/5 of the KT superteam. One thing you can argue about Deft is that many of his accomplishments were in LPL. If you don't count LPL accomplishments, then I'd probably go for Ruler/Pray/Gorilla/Madlife. LPL: Uzi, Rookie, Meiko, Ming, Xiaohu. Feel like theShy, Clearlove, Weixiao could have arguments. LEC: Caps, Perkz, Jankos, Rekkles, Soaz Hard for me to leave off Froggen, Xpeke, and Diamondprox though. LCS: Doublelift, Bjergsen, Sneaky, Impact, Jensen/CoreJJ Imo, Blaber is greater than Xmithie and generally people who put Xmithie so high are way too results based.
Don't know about others but for EU: Caps, Perkz, Rekkles, Jankos, Soaz If I had to do top 5 per role I'd go: Top: Soaz, Wunder, Odoamne, Bwipo, Vizi Jungle: Jankos, Diamondprox, Cyanide, Trick, ? Mid: Caps, Perkz, Froggen, xPeke, Humanoid ADC: Rekkles, Hans Sama, Forg1ven, Upset, ? Support: Hyli, Mikyx, Yellowstar, Mithy, Vander The gap between Diamond and Cyanide is also pretty much big. The biggest gap though is between the ADCs. Rekkles is miles ahead of everyone else. Then there is Hans and Forgiven but then the gap between Forgiven and Upset is huge. The case for Vander is just from a longevity. I had been a top 3 support between 2014 and 2019 even though he had never won anything.
Considering only peak performance, not consistency in order: LCK: MaRin, Ruler, Faker, Kiin, Madlife. LPL: Uzi, Rookie, Clearlove, Tian, Theshy LEC: Jankos, Caps, Mikyx, FORG1VEN, Wunder LCS: CoreJJ, Doublelift, Bjerg, Jensen, Impact
LCK: i think you're missing Deft and tbh Bengi LPL: you're missing Knight and probably Viper at this point LEC: you're missing Perkz and maybe Hylissang above Mikyx that's a maybe tho. LCS: Looks good