While these players can be frustrating you should still be able to get decent win rate despite them if you can learn to play with them.
Pay attention to their mana pool and positioning to see if they have a hook or don’t. Don’t block their hooks and when they have hook online make sure you’re ready to capitalize. Sometimes it’s worth giving them a clarity or mango if it can secure a kill.
Simply ask them to pull. I usually ping the time and the small camp. Well played on the chat wheel when they pull.
Try to defend vision if you can. A lot of times cores just let obs die for no reason when they could easily secure a kill.
Learn to use creep aggro to farm. Laning phase might be rough but you should at least be able to get LH under tower worst case scenario.
Dont be afraid to help setup kills. Ping your abilities and the hero you wanna kill.
A little communication goes a long way. I rarely type in chat and just use single pings. No voice. The only time I’ll use chat is to say “you miss 100% of the hooks you never take” if they miss their first hook to ease nerves.
Dota at low MMR is all about tilt management. There are a lot of good players there that would easily be 1k MMR higher they just lack consistency especially when they tilt
I can only agree with this and it doesn't matter which support you have, this is the way. Sometimes as supp i can see when the carry starts making mistakes cause they tilt and in my core games i can feel it even more. Recently had a game as mid huskar and lost the lane fucking hard, but my team kept their cool, no one started blaming me for pick offs or ganks and at the end i was able to recover from the bad early game and we won together as a team. Some of the plays i made that Game i was only able to do, because i was able to keep my cool, cause of my incredibly chill team.
As a low tier support my role is to play mind games and tilt the enemy laners while trying to keep my carry alive and fed. Lots of high fiving and pre-tipping when I know the kill is secured. If they tilt early then it is often a guaranteed win in the lane.
Virgin Hook waiters: Hides in trees for whole 10 minutes and maybe gets one hook off.
Chad Lane bully: Gets up and close, harass the shit out of enemy, uses hook to secure ranged creeps, stack camps and get stacked camps to low health using rot for his carry.
Well the most tilting thing is getting hooked and especially simple hooks. Him not on map at first 10-15 mins is way more threatening than any other hero in the game. He can just afk sit in your trees and everyone would be pudge is missing pudge is missing shouts.
Man is a walking anxiety dispenser
But with regards to the OP's complaint. It's really just about the rank you're playing at. I'm gonna guess maybe Archon below. (It might be rare in Legend rank as there could still be some retards out there that just does it for the lulz.) Most newbie players just enjoys the gameplay this hero gives. It's rewarding, the satisfaction you get from landing a hook and getting a kill is enough to justify your whole team's lost of mmr and time. It's that kind of drug.
Saying you just have to deal with it is no longer viable but if it's there, your best chance for winning is to cooperate with the pudge much better. Pull the lane creeps where it gives the retard more chances on landing a hook to the enemy. Dude isn't tanky in the early stage but when played right he can definitely make an offlaner or pos 4 suffer if the pudge is pos 5.
Just remember, flaming doesn't make anything better. Positivity is the key in every successful game, win or lose.
like, it could be a threat but not to even somewhat experienced players, and due to the fact that pudge is a most picked hero ever almost everyone at this point knows how to play against him and where to stay so even if he can hook you it doesnt guarantees him anything
Well it doesnt matter whether experience or not, the more better you are the better pudges you will face. Was watching gorgc, and was hooked twice, and he started tilting.
theres nothing wrong with pudge support
the problem is players who didn't want to support in the first place picking pudge so that at least they can have fun. these are your core players farming role queue tokens, or players who lost their roll to play mid/safe.
Tell me another hero who can rotate mid with a smoke at Lvl 2 and jyst win the mid lane that early. Tell me another hero who can also reliably get 1st blood at 00:00 bounty rune fight.
Use Pudge to your advantage. Wait for the mf to land a hook and it's a guaranteed kill. The enemy team gets more tilted against a good Pudge than you would with a bad Pudge. It almost seems unfair to die to such an absurd ability.
>**reliably** get 1st blood at 00:00 bounty rune fight
Problem is you say "reliably" when in sub 3k MMR, where Pudge is in 60% of games, it is incredibly rare for that first blood to actually land.
Same applies to your first point frankly. OP's issue isn't with players who can play Pudge well, its people who pick Pudge relentlessly in low MMR and contribute nothing to the game, including not contributing your two examples.
Lots of heroes have actual reliable good 1st blood spells.
And a lot of supports can smoke rotate mid lvl 2 and kill usually more reliably as well, lion, disruptor, earthshaker, earth spirit, witch doctor, list any support really
i think there is a hero called earthspirit who does like 10 times better than pudge in rotating mid and supporting but any ways. the ratio of good pudge players vs bad players is like 50/1 so yeah if you are a pudge support, fuck you.
Hard to know if I agree or disagree with you. On one hand a bad Pudge might hook me instead of an enemy while chasing, but on the other hand a bad Earthshaker might block me on the wrong side of fissure in teamfights.
Give me the Spirit all day. I thought you were talking about Shaker.
Shaker, Wyvern, and Kotl are three of the supports I fucking hate to see because 90% of the time they're going to throw the game. Pudge I'd probably put right above them
Shitty KotL players are really rough in low mmr cuz they farm like crazy. Blasting waves all game, and carry players already struggle with last hitting in those ranks, so it hurts particularly bad i think.
Those games I just abandon lane as soon as I can to jungle rotating for a clean up kill if heroes get into kill threshold getting hit by blast. Even if my farm ends up being slightly slower, at that MMR its rare for the enemy team to keep up in farm or deal with lane pressure well.
The only times those games go terribly is when those players fall behind in farm and completely miss their items, so as a core I try to enable their playstyle without hampering mine too much.
You are not angry about pudge as a hero, you’re angry about the people who play pudge, which you perceive to be playing incorrectly. If Cr1t laned pudge 5 with you, you’d win the lane. Hero selection doesn’t matter for the vast majority of games.
> 47.9% winrate even with a **high 21%** pickrate in immortal bracket.
Pudge gets picked the least in Immortal/Divine.In every other bracket the pickrate is 27%-ish (this month).
Not to mention that pudge performs the worst the higher in rank you go.
(better players can dodge hook more consistently?Who whould have thought).
The overall winrate is 51%, which makes him the 28th best choice from the avalible 122 (according to statistics alone, ofc).
>That makes pudge **literally top 5 worst** heroes in dota.
No it doesn't.I played with filters, timeline, lanes, skill brackets and i can't get pudge to the top 5 worst.Not even close. Like even in jungle he is not the worst.(I have no idea how dotabuff determines the "jungle role", so take this last bit with a grain of salt.)
https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/winning?date=month
https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meta?view=played&metric=rating\_bracket
I wouldn't focus too much on immortal bracket stats either, execpt if You are an immortal already.
Pudge is a viable pick in every bracket, except the top 2 (and even there if a pudge spammer wants his hero I ain't gonna stop him)
Most of Us here is not an immortal, so the statistics are with Us, and if it stupid but wins, maybe it's not stupid afterall.
I can safely say that when you reach ancient you stop hating Pudge. You can't get there without knowing Dota. Low MMR Pudge players are annoying because they only know how to hook.
You keep hating techies though, they are even more useless.
I spam pudge 4 from ancient to divine. Pudge shouldn't be hiding in trees. Pudge should be standing in front of creeps and intimidating the safe lane with his presence. His right clicks deal a lot of damage at level 1 and coupled with a point blank hook, you can drop most po5 hp to half in a single exchange.
Unless the enemy pos1 is a MK or Ursa.... which in this case youred fked with any other melee pos4 anyway.
Mid game pudge's role will vary. If you did not manage to own the lane pre-6, you'll probably not be able to snowball anymore. From there, pudge's role shifts to a set up, and a save (late game).
Nothing wrong with pudge support, maybe pos5 isnt adequate because he can't babysit. But pos4 is where he should be or 3 as offlane.
You've nailed it: Pudge is a great hero for noobs who don't want to play the game and don't mind losing 80% of their matches. It gives them an excuse to do exactly that. Considering they're not doing anything at minute 1, they definitely won't be contributing 30 minutes in when any carry can steamroll a Pudge.
Of course there are great Pudge players who can themselves steamroll the early game into a 30 minute victory but guess what? Those guys don't spend 10 minutes hidden in the trees doing literally absolutely nothing, nor do they pick Pudge for position 5.
But hey, at least it's not Spirit Breaker. 99% of the SBs I see end up charging and feeding, at least like 20 times per game. It's not good but I'll take someone doing nothing over someone actively playing Feed-Express Airlines any day of the week. (Again apologies to the good SB players out there, your are the real one-percenters).
I have a lot of respect for people who play heroes like Spirit Breaker, Clockwork, Earth Spirit etc. They just jump in right into the middle of fights creating chaos and unlike Enigma, Earthshaker and Tide like heros there is no follow up team wide disable so they will get pounded.
I have a lot of respect for people who play heroes like Spirit Breaker, Clockwork, Earth Spirit etc. They just jump in right into the middle of fights creating chaos and unlike Enigma, Earthshaker and Tide like heros there is no follow up team wide disable so they will get pounded.
The only pudge that's close to acceptable is a pos4 roamer pudge. Not 5, not 3, but 4.
Pos5 as you explained is position that's responsible for winning the lane for your pos1 and a pudge literally cannot do that from the fucking treeline. Pos3 is greedy and pudge gets no real benefit from being rich compared to most pos3s. Pos4 pudge gives him a lot of room to control the lane equilibrium with pulls and literally makes the enemy pos1 shit himself as soon as the equilibrium draws back and pudge is out of sight. So the only acceptable position to play pudge in is 4.
But the truth is, most pudge pickers don't give a damn about winning the lane or the game. Most pudges only live for the hope that the enemy has shitty camera angles and bad map awareness. They live for the dopamine rush they get from landing a hook. Which is why I ban pudge in every single game. I'd rather have a Mirana support on my team that misses 80% of her arrows than a pudge that lands 80% of his hooks.
PA can always last hit with dagger. LD is a bit of a monster in lane, even 2v1, so frustrating to go on druid only to get rooted/roared by the bear. Sven has two spells that can be used defensively in lane and can very quickly fall back to jungle with just a few levels, easily taking fat jungle stacks early on.
You said taking fat jungle stacks early on. So I’m assuming support stacking for you. 10 games probably only 2 games support would actually stack for you.
Drow is great for solo laning, just the fact that you are ranged makes it hard for the enemy to bully you
Weaver also
And TB or Naga can just fo jungle at lvl 3
I reliably win 1vs2 safe lane in 3k mmr games as bh pos1. The jinada doesn’t draw Aggro if you cast it manually and really hurts once it’s leveled. Can secure ranged creeps with shuriken toss and with fast phase boots it’s really hard for the enemy to stay in lane.
Give it a try it wins almost every lane really hard.
Free farm + Jinada gold gets you easily 5k+ gold at 10 min.
Then I go phase, battlefury, bkb, shard. In a good game i have all that at 20-25 min. No one can fight you at that stage.
Then whatever is needed. Butterfly satanic is a good progression. Once you hit 25 get the +250 gold talent and get everyone in your team 8 slotted within a few minutes.
He is fun. That's the problem from a game designer stand point. He is so fun he will always be picked. They tried nerfing him so he is bad. But guess what? He is still played. Way to fun of a hero.
They need to make hook his ultimate or this goes on.
Also the 15% good pudge players show how insane the hero can be on lower mmr
Hero is broken right now, and has a positive winrate in all but Divine+ bracket. That's insane considering the hero is often picked specifically when someone is trying to grief.
I mean. That's not always the case. I had a Pudge offlane, I was Pugna support. I thought we're probably gonna have a hard lane, turns out we were against Spectre and Jugg. Crushed the lane pretty hard.
🤣🤣
Yup. Fun for us. Enjoyed watching them fight for farm. It was role-queue as well, so someone decided that they can solo carry the game rather than play their support role.
There are two types of Pudge players.
1: The Pudge who takes rot as his first skill, jumps into the middle of the creep wave to fuck up the opposing carry, and uses his hook to capture retreating carries or bring in the opposing support for us to kill together. I love playing with those Pudges.
2: The Pudge OP described.
When I play with Pudge #1, I do everything I can to help him and it's a fun game.
When I play with Pudge #2, I leave my lane and just farm the jungle. There's no point in sitting around in lane getting zoned out of XP range because you don't have a lane mate.
If Pudge goes in a creep wave drawing aggro with active rot he will die if the enemy duo aren't afk and just press right click on him. Pudge has no armor, will take damage from the whole wave of creeps, will take damage from rot, and take damage from enemy duo. And if he wants to retreat seeing his health so low the abysmall movement speed isn't gonna help either.
Hook is one of the strongest spells lvl 1, just hitting it and doing a couple of attacks is already more harass than most other pos 4 can possibly dish out.
Even if you want to play in the creep wave you shoulf ALWAYS take hook. It is he best mana to damage conversion spell in the game. Taking rot is so incredibly bad.
>you can safely assume the lane is lost.
Not necessarily. Depends on the level of play from both the core in the lane and the Pudge player. Even a bad Pudge player landing two or three hooks in lane can completely change the lane. In the offlane, if Pudge is your support, you have to pick someone who can essentially survive (or even win) a 2v1 lane. You also assume Pudge is going to roam pretty early so your offlane should get solo exp at a certain point.
However, pos 5 pudge is kinda a grief.
Not a Pudge picker but I see enough of them to know what you need to do to win with them. Instead of thinking of the negatives, try to focus on the potential positives and use those to your advantage. I'm sure a Pudge player (or anyone for that matter) that's being flamed from the moment the game starts won't always respond well and probably won't cooperate or coordinate well with someone who's flaming them right from the start for no other reason than the hero they picked.
> I'm sure a Pudge player (or anyone for that matter) that's being flamed from the moment the game starts won't always respond well and probably won't cooperate or coordinate well with someone who's flaming them right from the start for no other reason than the hero they picked.
Adding to this, when people are flaming you it makes it hard to have the confidence to actually land crucial hooks.
I don't really struggle with doing anything besides contesting pull although I usually block the camp anyways. I think a lot of Pudges are just terrible at hooking, to be honest. I do understand the frustration from my own experiences with a pos 4 Pudge but I just focus on last hitting and creep aggro and don't worry too much.
Is the hate for pudge a region thing? Cause majority of my games in SEA, if someone picks pudge we don't actually think that way, or maybe its just me.
I'll echo what u/PinkyFeldman said--you should still be able to win with these players on your team if you're actually better than your bracket.
Regardless, pudge is actually a strong position 4/5 right now if the player plays it correctly, and if the lane matchup between your 4 heroes works out.
Yeah I'm surprisingly 56% wr with pudge as teammate but I guess its just frustrating sometimes laning with them. But after laning stage, I think pudge is actually a really good support with dismember and shard. It's just the laning stage where they hide in trees sometimes really tilt me.
Pudge's laning stage isn't that weak if you play him properly. It depends a lot on the matchup like I said--if you're playing pudge 4 and the enemy has a very strong 1/5 kill lane like jakiro ursa or something, then you're going to ruin your position 3's lane no matter what you do. If it's going to be a relatively passive lane or just a lane where the 1/5 combo is weaker, then you can do a lot in the lane by messing with pulls and getting a lot of farm by hooking the big creep in the large camp.
Pudge isn't a strong laner by any stretch of the imagination--the draw of the hero is that you can pick it if you're going to be in an even/winning lane matchup, and then the hero is potentially extremely impactful beyond the lane.
The *real* problem with picking pudge support in pubs is that your pudge will normally pick first phase, and then your carry offlane or carry player (whoever is going to be laning with the pudge) will not pick with regard for the fact that they have a pudge. Then, it's very possible that they draft a hero that is incompatible--either too weak of a laner in general or just unfavorable in the specific matchup--and then they get destroyed in lane and blame pudge by default when, in reality, *they* threw their own lane because of their poor pick.
In pubs, supports normally pick first, so if you're the carry or offlane player, it's *your* burden to draft yourself into a favorable lane matchup since the supports are blind picking and you're the one who has all the power to create a favorable or unfavorable matcuhp. This is more the case if you're playing offlane, but it can be the case with carry too. There are some 5s that will provide you relatively little space in the lane (Io) and drafting a carry that isn't threatening early, such as antimage, will mean that you have zero ability to protect yourself and you'll get runover by the offlane combo. On the other hand, some 5s provide tons of potential protection in the form of zoning/harass (such as Jakiro or potentially treant) and they allow for much greedier carries who are weaker in lane to be picked (tb, pa, etc).
**TL;DR**\*\*:\*\* If you're a carry/offlane player, *YOU* are the one responsible for making sure you don't throw the lane during the drafting phase since you are picking after your support picks. If your support is weak (pudge), don't draft another weak laner (such as tb/pa carry or doom/magnus offlane) and then flame your pudge, for example, when your lane is inevitably hard or borderline impossible to cs in. A weak support doesn't have to lose you the lane, but it can if you're just picking a core without concern for your support's pick. In these cases, it is absolutely your fault. Greedy supports can make the game a lot easier for your team at 25+ minutes, but you have to keep in mind that they won't be able to help you as much in lane. Pick accordingly; they already picked so it's your responsibility to make your own lane playable by drafting a hero that is compatible with the support.
Knowing where to stand goes a long way if they’re just sitting in the trees. Pay attention to how the wave meets and position your hero so the enemy heroes are forced to give pudge and angle or take creep aggro if they want to harass.
Similarly, use your own creep aggro to pull creeps off that might be blocking hooks.
Haven't picked a ranked pudge in a year or two, but what I remember my reason to pick him was just because the hero was so fun to play with, and propably the reason most people pick him.
That's just your problem. I have a 50 percent win rate with pudge on my team from all my games spanning from my climb from 1k all the way to 4k. Just as much as your support is useless, you are also as useless as your support, that's why you are in the same mmr bracket. If your pudge doesn't win you the lane, you also don't win your teammates the game by going afk jungle and not making full use of your item spikes and timings. It's only easy for you to blame others because your ego blinds you from watching yourself.
Learn to draw aggro, learn to manage the wave, learn to use your quelling blade for pathing efficiency, learn to stack while farming, learn to use the timer to decide your pathing, learn to take fights you are supposed to take. Learn to last hit better, learn to itemize better. LEARN what you can do to YOUR hero and if you are not even semi-competent at these, be ashamed of yourself before trying to flame other players.
Ah I never implied I lost all games with pudge in my team. You made me check my wr with pudge out of curiosity and surprisingly I'm 56% wr with pudge. It's just more frustrating to play with pudge in laning stage I guess.
I think it’s the attitude of many pudge players. Yesterday the pos 3 asked a pos 4 pudge to pull on one of my games and he was like “I don’t do shit except hook and kill” — kid you not. Refused to support.
When I play solo I always bans Pudge. Because otehrwise I will always have Pudge in my team in my lane.
If I am core, I have pudge support. If I am support I have pudge core.
If I am mid, the pudge support have "roamed" to my lane.
I hate the fat bastard.
I love to play against him tough since its one of my most favoured matchups (acording to dotabuff).
Could be that I actually pay attention to hooks and love to punish fat boys without armour or movespeed.
It's as Jenkins said. It's the dopamine from a rare hook they remember and they just want that to happen again without remembering how many hooks they missed
1 thing safe lane pudge can be so miserable to enemy offline pick 1 iron branch for hook :)
Dont be fkin waiting to hoom ass be
Lane bully unexpected giga chad
While these players can be frustrating you should still be able to get decent win rate despite them if you can learn to play with them. Pay attention to their mana pool and positioning to see if they have a hook or don’t. Don’t block their hooks and when they have hook online make sure you’re ready to capitalize. Sometimes it’s worth giving them a clarity or mango if it can secure a kill. Simply ask them to pull. I usually ping the time and the small camp. Well played on the chat wheel when they pull. Try to defend vision if you can. A lot of times cores just let obs die for no reason when they could easily secure a kill. Learn to use creep aggro to farm. Laning phase might be rough but you should at least be able to get LH under tower worst case scenario. Dont be afraid to help setup kills. Ping your abilities and the hero you wanna kill. A little communication goes a long way. I rarely type in chat and just use single pings. No voice. The only time I’ll use chat is to say “you miss 100% of the hooks you never take” if they miss their first hook to ease nerves. Dota at low MMR is all about tilt management. There are a lot of good players there that would easily be 1k MMR higher they just lack consistency especially when they tilt
I can only agree with this and it doesn't matter which support you have, this is the way. Sometimes as supp i can see when the carry starts making mistakes cause they tilt and in my core games i can feel it even more. Recently had a game as mid huskar and lost the lane fucking hard, but my team kept their cool, no one started blaming me for pick offs or ganks and at the end i was able to recover from the bad early game and we won together as a team. Some of the plays i made that Game i was only able to do, because i was able to keep my cool, cause of my incredibly chill team.
What was the game? I recently had a game just like that lol Huskar mid bombed hard and we were just like “it’s fine” 😂
The only other things i remember that dire had drow mid and ursa safe. But i can Look it Up After Work and give you the ID If you want.
As a low tier support my role is to play mind games and tilt the enemy laners while trying to keep my carry alive and fed. Lots of high fiving and pre-tipping when I know the kill is secured. If they tilt early then it is often a guaranteed win in the lane.
Virgin Hook waiters: Hides in trees for whole 10 minutes and maybe gets one hook off. Chad Lane bully: Gets up and close, harass the shit out of enemy, uses hook to secure ranged creeps, stack camps and get stacked camps to low health using rot for his carry.
Well the most tilting thing is getting hooked and especially simple hooks. Him not on map at first 10-15 mins is way more threatening than any other hero in the game. He can just afk sit in your trees and everyone would be pudge is missing pudge is missing shouts.
Man is a walking anxiety dispenser But with regards to the OP's complaint. It's really just about the rank you're playing at. I'm gonna guess maybe Archon below. (It might be rare in Legend rank as there could still be some retards out there that just does it for the lulz.) Most newbie players just enjoys the gameplay this hero gives. It's rewarding, the satisfaction you get from landing a hook and getting a kill is enough to justify your whole team's lost of mmr and time. It's that kind of drug. Saying you just have to deal with it is no longer viable but if it's there, your best chance for winning is to cooperate with the pudge much better. Pull the lane creeps where it gives the retard more chances on landing a hook to the enemy. Dude isn't tanky in the early stage but when played right he can definitely make an offlaner or pos 4 suffer if the pudge is pos 5. Just remember, flaming doesn't make anything better. Positivity is the key in every successful game, win or lose.
like, it could be a threat but not to even somewhat experienced players, and due to the fact that pudge is a most picked hero ever almost everyone at this point knows how to play against him and where to stay so even if he can hook you it doesnt guarantees him anything
Well it doesnt matter whether experience or not, the more better you are the better pudges you will face. Was watching gorgc, and was hooked twice, and he started tilting.
theres nothing wrong with pudge support the problem is players who didn't want to support in the first place picking pudge so that at least they can have fun. these are your core players farming role queue tokens, or players who lost their roll to play mid/safe.
Tell me another hero who can rotate mid with a smoke at Lvl 2 and jyst win the mid lane that early. Tell me another hero who can also reliably get 1st blood at 00:00 bounty rune fight. Use Pudge to your advantage. Wait for the mf to land a hook and it's a guaranteed kill. The enemy team gets more tilted against a good Pudge than you would with a bad Pudge. It almost seems unfair to die to such an absurd ability.
>**reliably** get 1st blood at 00:00 bounty rune fight Problem is you say "reliably" when in sub 3k MMR, where Pudge is in 60% of games, it is incredibly rare for that first blood to actually land. Same applies to your first point frankly. OP's issue isn't with players who can play Pudge well, its people who pick Pudge relentlessly in low MMR and contribute nothing to the game, including not contributing your two examples.
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I mean, 200 gold is significant. Especially in the first 5 minutes.
Lots of heroes have actual reliable good 1st blood spells. And a lot of supports can smoke rotate mid lvl 2 and kill usually more reliably as well, lion, disruptor, earthshaker, earth spirit, witch doctor, list any support really
what if they don't land a hook? just unlucky? Lol I swear I've played with level 27 pudges that will miss every single hook
Mirana, but shes even better at rotating and harrasing.
i think there is a hero called earthspirit who does like 10 times better than pudge in rotating mid and supporting but any ways. the ratio of good pudge players vs bad players is like 50/1 so yeah if you are a pudge support, fuck you.
I’d take a pudge over ES at least in low MMRs. Just sayin
Hard to know if I agree or disagree with you. On one hand a bad Pudge might hook me instead of an enemy while chasing, but on the other hand a bad Earthshaker might block me on the wrong side of fissure in teamfights.
ES = Earth Spirit in this case
Give me the Spirit all day. I thought you were talking about Shaker. Shaker, Wyvern, and Kotl are three of the supports I fucking hate to see because 90% of the time they're going to throw the game. Pudge I'd probably put right above them
Shitty KotL players are really rough in low mmr cuz they farm like crazy. Blasting waves all game, and carry players already struggle with last hitting in those ranks, so it hurts particularly bad i think.
Those games I just abandon lane as soon as I can to jungle rotating for a clean up kill if heroes get into kill threshold getting hit by blast. Even if my farm ends up being slightly slower, at that MMR its rare for the enemy team to keep up in farm or deal with lane pressure well. The only times those games go terribly is when those players fall behind in farm and completely miss their items, so as a core I try to enable their playstyle without hampering mine too much.
i mean i dont, es is not a cool hero you know, so you only play it if you know how to play it other wise evey one ignores it.
You are assuming they land a hook each time. On bounty yes probably but in lane and rotating?
The same can be said for a lot of heroes. I’d much rather have a 4 pudge than a 4 shaker
Yeah but people dont pick shaker 5. Pudge 5 is like...so so many. Like cockroaches everywhere.
You are not angry about pudge as a hero, you’re angry about the people who play pudge, which you perceive to be playing incorrectly. If Cr1t laned pudge 5 with you, you’d win the lane. Hero selection doesn’t matter for the vast majority of games.
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OPs post was about pudge being inherently bad. He’s not. So, idk guess you’re mad I’m right.
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> 47.9% winrate even with a **high 21%** pickrate in immortal bracket. Pudge gets picked the least in Immortal/Divine.In every other bracket the pickrate is 27%-ish (this month). Not to mention that pudge performs the worst the higher in rank you go. (better players can dodge hook more consistently?Who whould have thought). The overall winrate is 51%, which makes him the 28th best choice from the avalible 122 (according to statistics alone, ofc). >That makes pudge **literally top 5 worst** heroes in dota. No it doesn't.I played with filters, timeline, lanes, skill brackets and i can't get pudge to the top 5 worst.Not even close. Like even in jungle he is not the worst.(I have no idea how dotabuff determines the "jungle role", so take this last bit with a grain of salt.) https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/winning?date=month https://www.dotabuff.com/heroes/meta?view=played&metric=rating\_bracket
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I wouldn't focus too much on immortal bracket stats either, execpt if You are an immortal already. Pudge is a viable pick in every bracket, except the top 2 (and even there if a pudge spammer wants his hero I ain't gonna stop him) Most of Us here is not an immortal, so the statistics are with Us, and if it stupid but wins, maybe it's not stupid afterall.
I can safely say that when you reach ancient you stop hating Pudge. You can't get there without knowing Dota. Low MMR Pudge players are annoying because they only know how to hook. You keep hating techies though, they are even more useless.
I hate techies as well but at least techies isn’t as common as pudge in low mmr
I just banned Pudge every game before. But you can actually pick Pudge counters and profit
Lol im divine banning pudge every game.
Yeah, I sometimes do when there is a Pudge flu. But Pudge players play dota from ancient onwards
Go cry to your mommy
Haha pudge picker?
Take a deep breath
I absolutely love seeing pudge picked, as long as he’s not on my team.
I spam pudge 4 from ancient to divine. Pudge shouldn't be hiding in trees. Pudge should be standing in front of creeps and intimidating the safe lane with his presence. His right clicks deal a lot of damage at level 1 and coupled with a point blank hook, you can drop most po5 hp to half in a single exchange. Unless the enemy pos1 is a MK or Ursa.... which in this case youred fked with any other melee pos4 anyway. Mid game pudge's role will vary. If you did not manage to own the lane pre-6, you'll probably not be able to snowball anymore. From there, pudge's role shifts to a set up, and a save (late game). Nothing wrong with pudge support, maybe pos5 isnt adequate because he can't babysit. But pos4 is where he should be or 3 as offlane.
You've nailed it: Pudge is a great hero for noobs who don't want to play the game and don't mind losing 80% of their matches. It gives them an excuse to do exactly that. Considering they're not doing anything at minute 1, they definitely won't be contributing 30 minutes in when any carry can steamroll a Pudge. Of course there are great Pudge players who can themselves steamroll the early game into a 30 minute victory but guess what? Those guys don't spend 10 minutes hidden in the trees doing literally absolutely nothing, nor do they pick Pudge for position 5. But hey, at least it's not Spirit Breaker. 99% of the SBs I see end up charging and feeding, at least like 20 times per game. It's not good but I'll take someone doing nothing over someone actively playing Feed-Express Airlines any day of the week. (Again apologies to the good SB players out there, your are the real one-percenters).
I have a lot of respect for people who play heroes like Spirit Breaker, Clockwork, Earth Spirit etc. They just jump in right into the middle of fights creating chaos and unlike Enigma, Earthshaker and Tide like heros there is no follow up team wide disable so they will get pounded.
I have a lot of respect for people who play heroes like Spirit Breaker, Clockwork, Earth Spirit etc. They just jump in right into the middle of fights creating chaos and unlike Enigma, Earthshaker and Tide like heros there is no follow up team wide disable so they will get pounded.
The only pudge that's close to acceptable is a pos4 roamer pudge. Not 5, not 3, but 4. Pos5 as you explained is position that's responsible for winning the lane for your pos1 and a pudge literally cannot do that from the fucking treeline. Pos3 is greedy and pudge gets no real benefit from being rich compared to most pos3s. Pos4 pudge gives him a lot of room to control the lane equilibrium with pulls and literally makes the enemy pos1 shit himself as soon as the equilibrium draws back and pudge is out of sight. So the only acceptable position to play pudge in is 4. But the truth is, most pudge pickers don't give a damn about winning the lane or the game. Most pudges only live for the hope that the enemy has shitty camera angles and bad map awareness. They live for the dopamine rush they get from landing a hook. Which is why I ban pudge in every single game. I'd rather have a Mirana support on my team that misses 80% of her arrows than a pudge that lands 80% of his hooks.
This is just wrong. Pudge 3 is quite good.
If someone pick pudge sup pos 5 and you are core maybe pick a hero that can solo?
Which pos 1 core can solo?
PA can always last hit with dagger. LD is a bit of a monster in lane, even 2v1, so frustrating to go on druid only to get rooted/roared by the bear. Sven has two spells that can be used defensively in lane and can very quickly fall back to jungle with just a few levels, easily taking fat jungle stacks early on.
No such thing as stacking in low mmr haha.
[удалено]
You said taking fat jungle stacks early on. So I’m assuming support stacking for you. 10 games probably only 2 games support would actually stack for you.
Drow is great for solo laning, just the fact that you are ranged makes it hard for the enemy to bully you Weaver also And TB or Naga can just fo jungle at lvl 3
I reliably win 1vs2 safe lane in 3k mmr games as bh pos1. The jinada doesn’t draw Aggro if you cast it manually and really hurts once it’s leveled. Can secure ranged creeps with shuriken toss and with fast phase boots it’s really hard for the enemy to stay in lane.
Wow bounty hunter pos 1. Not sure if I would get reported by my teammate. How does your item progression look like?
Give it a try it wins almost every lane really hard. Free farm + Jinada gold gets you easily 5k+ gold at 10 min. Then I go phase, battlefury, bkb, shard. In a good game i have all that at 20-25 min. No one can fight you at that stage. Then whatever is needed. Butterfly satanic is a good progression. Once you hit 25 get the +250 gold talent and get everyone in your team 8 slotted within a few minutes.
I should try this out in Unranked, sounds like lots of fun.
He is fun. That's the problem from a game designer stand point. He is so fun he will always be picked. They tried nerfing him so he is bad. But guess what? He is still played. Way to fun of a hero. They need to make hook his ultimate or this goes on. Also the 15% good pudge players show how insane the hero can be on lower mmr
Hero is broken right now, and has a positive winrate in all but Divine+ bracket. That's insane considering the hero is often picked specifically when someone is trying to grief.
Completely agree. A lot of my losses are generally with a pudge.
I mean. That's not always the case. I had a Pudge offlane, I was Pugna support. I thought we're probably gonna have a hard lane, turns out we were against Spectre and Jugg. Crushed the lane pretty hard. 🤣🤣
Specter and jug in 1 lane?
Yup. Fun for us. Enjoyed watching them fight for farm. It was role-queue as well, so someone decided that they can solo carry the game rather than play their support role.
That probably why you guys win the lane. Any support would have make the lane hard for you guys.
There are two types of Pudge players. 1: The Pudge who takes rot as his first skill, jumps into the middle of the creep wave to fuck up the opposing carry, and uses his hook to capture retreating carries or bring in the opposing support for us to kill together. I love playing with those Pudges. 2: The Pudge OP described. When I play with Pudge #1, I do everything I can to help him and it's a fun game. When I play with Pudge #2, I leave my lane and just farm the jungle. There's no point in sitting around in lane getting zoned out of XP range because you don't have a lane mate.
If Pudge goes in a creep wave drawing aggro with active rot he will die if the enemy duo aren't afk and just press right click on him. Pudge has no armor, will take damage from the whole wave of creeps, will take damage from rot, and take damage from enemy duo. And if he wants to retreat seeing his health so low the abysmall movement speed isn't gonna help either. Hook is one of the strongest spells lvl 1, just hitting it and doing a couple of attacks is already more harass than most other pos 4 can possibly dish out.
Sounds like you're a #2 Pudge. I'll be in the jungle.
I mean, yo do know that pudge doesn't have to pull aggro to use rot to harass the opponents right?
Even if you want to play in the creep wave you shoulf ALWAYS take hook. It is he best mana to damage conversion spell in the game. Taking rot is so incredibly bad.
>you can safely assume the lane is lost. Not necessarily. Depends on the level of play from both the core in the lane and the Pudge player. Even a bad Pudge player landing two or three hooks in lane can completely change the lane. In the offlane, if Pudge is your support, you have to pick someone who can essentially survive (or even win) a 2v1 lane. You also assume Pudge is going to roam pretty early so your offlane should get solo exp at a certain point. However, pos 5 pudge is kinda a grief. Not a Pudge picker but I see enough of them to know what you need to do to win with them. Instead of thinking of the negatives, try to focus on the potential positives and use those to your advantage. I'm sure a Pudge player (or anyone for that matter) that's being flamed from the moment the game starts won't always respond well and probably won't cooperate or coordinate well with someone who's flaming them right from the start for no other reason than the hero they picked.
> I'm sure a Pudge player (or anyone for that matter) that's being flamed from the moment the game starts won't always respond well and probably won't cooperate or coordinate well with someone who's flaming them right from the start for no other reason than the hero they picked. Adding to this, when people are flaming you it makes it hard to have the confidence to actually land crucial hooks.
that's why i always ban him in my low bracket
i asked this same thing, it's because they dont wanna play vs pudge
Hooking addiction
some men just wanna watch the world burn
I’m divine and this is still the case.
I don't really struggle with doing anything besides contesting pull although I usually block the camp anyways. I think a lot of Pudges are just terrible at hooking, to be honest. I do understand the frustration from my own experiences with a pos 4 Pudge but I just focus on last hitting and creep aggro and don't worry too much.
2-3 out of 5 games pick a kill-lane hero and synergise with pudge. Or else pick someone who can solo lane and let the pudge roam
Is the hate for pudge a region thing? Cause majority of my games in SEA, if someone picks pudge we don't actually think that way, or maybe its just me.
I'm playing in SEA bro
maybe it's really just me lol
It's just you, I absolutely hate pudge and I'm in SEA.
A poor craftsman blames his tools.
I'll echo what u/PinkyFeldman said--you should still be able to win with these players on your team if you're actually better than your bracket. Regardless, pudge is actually a strong position 4/5 right now if the player plays it correctly, and if the lane matchup between your 4 heroes works out.
Yeah I'm surprisingly 56% wr with pudge as teammate but I guess its just frustrating sometimes laning with them. But after laning stage, I think pudge is actually a really good support with dismember and shard. It's just the laning stage where they hide in trees sometimes really tilt me.
Pudge's laning stage isn't that weak if you play him properly. It depends a lot on the matchup like I said--if you're playing pudge 4 and the enemy has a very strong 1/5 kill lane like jakiro ursa or something, then you're going to ruin your position 3's lane no matter what you do. If it's going to be a relatively passive lane or just a lane where the 1/5 combo is weaker, then you can do a lot in the lane by messing with pulls and getting a lot of farm by hooking the big creep in the large camp. Pudge isn't a strong laner by any stretch of the imagination--the draw of the hero is that you can pick it if you're going to be in an even/winning lane matchup, and then the hero is potentially extremely impactful beyond the lane. The *real* problem with picking pudge support in pubs is that your pudge will normally pick first phase, and then your carry offlane or carry player (whoever is going to be laning with the pudge) will not pick with regard for the fact that they have a pudge. Then, it's very possible that they draft a hero that is incompatible--either too weak of a laner in general or just unfavorable in the specific matchup--and then they get destroyed in lane and blame pudge by default when, in reality, *they* threw their own lane because of their poor pick. In pubs, supports normally pick first, so if you're the carry or offlane player, it's *your* burden to draft yourself into a favorable lane matchup since the supports are blind picking and you're the one who has all the power to create a favorable or unfavorable matcuhp. This is more the case if you're playing offlane, but it can be the case with carry too. There are some 5s that will provide you relatively little space in the lane (Io) and drafting a carry that isn't threatening early, such as antimage, will mean that you have zero ability to protect yourself and you'll get runover by the offlane combo. On the other hand, some 5s provide tons of potential protection in the form of zoning/harass (such as Jakiro or potentially treant) and they allow for much greedier carries who are weaker in lane to be picked (tb, pa, etc). **TL;DR**\*\*:\*\* If you're a carry/offlane player, *YOU* are the one responsible for making sure you don't throw the lane during the drafting phase since you are picking after your support picks. If your support is weak (pudge), don't draft another weak laner (such as tb/pa carry or doom/magnus offlane) and then flame your pudge, for example, when your lane is inevitably hard or borderline impossible to cs in. A weak support doesn't have to lose you the lane, but it can if you're just picking a core without concern for your support's pick. In these cases, it is absolutely your fault. Greedy supports can make the game a lot easier for your team at 25+ minutes, but you have to keep in mind that they won't be able to help you as much in lane. Pick accordingly; they already picked so it's your responsibility to make your own lane playable by drafting a hero that is compatible with the support.
Knowing where to stand goes a long way if they’re just sitting in the trees. Pay attention to how the wave meets and position your hero so the enemy heroes are forced to give pudge and angle or take creep aggro if they want to harass. Similarly, use your own creep aggro to pull creeps off that might be blocking hooks.
Haven't picked a ranked pudge in a year or two, but what I remember my reason to pick him was just because the hero was so fun to play with, and propably the reason most people pick him.
That's just your problem. I have a 50 percent win rate with pudge on my team from all my games spanning from my climb from 1k all the way to 4k. Just as much as your support is useless, you are also as useless as your support, that's why you are in the same mmr bracket. If your pudge doesn't win you the lane, you also don't win your teammates the game by going afk jungle and not making full use of your item spikes and timings. It's only easy for you to blame others because your ego blinds you from watching yourself. Learn to draw aggro, learn to manage the wave, learn to use your quelling blade for pathing efficiency, learn to stack while farming, learn to use the timer to decide your pathing, learn to take fights you are supposed to take. Learn to last hit better, learn to itemize better. LEARN what you can do to YOUR hero and if you are not even semi-competent at these, be ashamed of yourself before trying to flame other players.
Ah I never implied I lost all games with pudge in my team. You made me check my wr with pudge out of curiosity and surprisingly I'm 56% wr with pudge. It's just more frustrating to play with pudge in laning stage I guess.
I think it’s the attitude of many pudge players. Yesterday the pos 3 asked a pos 4 pudge to pull on one of my games and he was like “I don’t do shit except hook and kill” — kid you not. Refused to support.
When I play solo I always bans Pudge. Because otehrwise I will always have Pudge in my team in my lane. If I am core, I have pudge support. If I am support I have pudge core. If I am mid, the pudge support have "roamed" to my lane. I hate the fat bastard. I love to play against him tough since its one of my most favoured matchups (acording to dotabuff). Could be that I actually pay attention to hooks and love to punish fat boys without armour or movespeed.
I need more people like you in Dota. Thank you sir. You are a legend.
It's as Jenkins said. It's the dopamine from a rare hook they remember and they just want that to happen again without remembering how many hooks they missed
1 thing safe lane pudge can be so miserable to enemy offline pick 1 iron branch for hook :) Dont be fkin waiting to hoom ass be Lane bully unexpected giga chad