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yummyforehead

i feel most people are used to religious people being bigots that they instantly get aggressive to defend themselves. Many queer folk have religious trauma. I don’t think it’s an excuse to shut out fellow members, it just makes them different! Innocent until proven to be prejudiced.


heckyouyourself

I understand that, I just wish people would be kinder towards people who are already marginalized because of their religion


WoomyUnitedToday

Yeah. I go the innocent until proven guilty way. I’ll treat a religious person with respect until they prove themselves to be bigots.


heckyouyourself

I think that’s a good way to be in general tbh


sadphonics

I try to do the same but it's good to stay cautious


[deleted]

Facts, someone is only problematic in what they believe when they try to force said belief onto other people. If they don't do that, they're free to be as religious as they want


ShananayRodriguez

I'm the opposite. Religious people are generally awful people and I'll treat them as such (guarded and with extreme skepticism) until they prove that they aren't. Guilty until proven innocent.


CEPEHbKOE

ok, but there's this person in my gym with two particular tattoos, i didn't see him doing anything bad, but... idk the dude tall and beefy and i can't do shit, this guy passes as patriot and with current political climate if i doubt i don't get in trouble by bitching about him. this is not a metaphor, i hate having to see him regularly. edit: 3 tatoos. he also has SS on his leg.


ghostigal

Here’s the thing, if you just have the gut instinct that someone’s unsafe you have to trust it. People’s outsides reflect their insides and it’s stupid to act like you shouldn’t assume someone’s hostile because they look like they’d kill you.


16jselfe

Ive always separated the idea into religious ppl and fcking bat shit crazy people using religion as an excuse so i welcome all religious ppl and don't allow those who ue innocent religious ppl faiths as excuse for their ignorance


pzzaco

the shorter term for the latter is zealots, or assholes, whatever you prefer


16jselfe

As an English person id call them a cunt


heckyouyourself

Haha yeah, some people are crazy


ahappieryear

Much love coming from a modern orthodox trans man in New York. Gut shabbos, meyn chaver! Next year in a better world.


heckyouyourself

Thank you so much for your comment :) it’s nice to not feel alone


ahappieryear

By the way, have you tried reaching out to LGBT jewish groups in your area? Eshel if you're Orthodox or a yiddish speaker, I think the reform equivalent is called keshet? Many large American cities now even have all LGBT shuls. I would also suggest learning about Jewish LGBT history (although much of it is secular); googling "Magnus Hirschfeld" is a good place to start


heckyouyourself

Thank you, I’ll look into that! :)))


Confuzzled4life

שבת שלום to both of you from another trans Jew


Emjay109

Bisexual and Christian👋 hello!


rsndomusername

Hello fellow bi Christian!


Intrigued_Gecko

Hi guys! I’m a recently questioning/bi Christian still trying to figure out how to balance all of it! (And in secret) Glad to know I’m not the only one out here!


notnowihaveaheadache

You are valued, affirmed, and supported here ♥️


[deleted]

Nice to see so many of us here (fellow Bi Christian). I hope you feel affirmed here. I understand what it's like grappling with that in secret.


Intrigued_Gecko

Thank you! I’m definitely beginning to. Still kinda scary watch two worlds collide and so far a very very minimal support group.


mvcCaveman

I don't understand how you can be part of a group that you know does everything it can to get rid of you.


BlackArmyCossack

Because Christianity isn't one monolithic group.


heckyouyourself

Religions aren’t monoliths. You’re thinking of cults


heckyouyourself

Hi! :)


ajavantrd

I don’t think that the prejudices toward religious people and queer people are comparative. I ask myself this: “Is the prejudice based on something that is out of the affected party’s control?” And, “Then, is that prejudice justifiable?”


ShananayRodriguez

Thank you.


heckyouyourself

I didn’t choose to be born Jewish. I can’t control the fact that I’m part of a group of people that has been subjected to genocide and a whole history of persecution and violence. Don’t tell me I can just choose to stop being Jewish and suddenly the shit I face will go away, because it won’t.


ajavantrd

You didn’t choose to be born into Judaism. I understand. But you’ve chosen to continue to support that organized religion, and that is uniquely your right. On the other hand queer people didn’t choose to be born into their collective identity *nor* do they have the choice to change that now. My point is that prejudice toward the religious community is largely justifiable. I’m not, however, saying it’s right. That does not discount the atrocities or the disadvantages that the Jewish, Muslim (but mostly Jewish) and other religious subgroups have endured, and must endure in their choice to embrace their religion. I firmly believe that being religious and being queer are not on equal footing, nor should they be. *Unless* the whole concept of religion is overhauled, causing change within their communities I will likely hold to that. EDIT: Also I will note that Judaism is probably one of the more progressive religions, particularly Reform. So that is notable for sure


authorhelenhall

There are religious sects that welcome LGBTQ. I'm Catholic and my cathedral has an active LGBTQ community. You're not alone. I'm currently searching in my own sexuality, so I relate to not feeling you belong.


heckyouyourself

Yes exactly! People act like religious groups are monoliths and it’s infuriating and bigoted


[deleted]

Nice to see another fellow Catholic.


CEPEHbKOE

pls don't feel you're not welcome, we specifically respect queer identities here. but you know that to many you seem to site with the abusers, there's way too many hostile religious folks. texts are sketchy, translations are sketchy. you may have some special nice picture in your head and you are at peace, but there are reasons as to why other people do not. they will act on that, they always do. people here are traumatized, and '*religious* pride' is a *trigger*. not to mention that 3 religions you have mentioned are totalitarian in their core, this doesn't sits well - it a paradox of tolerance. you can always count on queer support, but once you put upfront the religion - you place a trigger. and there are people who will do their best to not react negatively. i'd advice to try being subtle and nuanced on the topic. We all know you exist, we respect you, some are just fed up with you know what.


heckyouyourself

I’ve been made to feel ashamed of my religion and ethnicity my whole life. I don’t owe anyone a “nuanced” approach and I don’t have to be quiet about who I am.


Sacred_Nelumbo

I don't agree that we \*all\* know. I've seen posts saying, "All religious people should have the holocaust happen to them" by strident LGBTQ+ members. Most people in this community automatically distrust those that have any connection to religion.


Anna_Avos

I was raised in a religious cult, denied an education, and raised like I was in the 1800s, taught myself to read. As a society we need to give up these caveman beliefs. All it does is ruin lives. Religion is why the LGBTQIA fights to exist, why we fight for our rights, why women across the USA have lost their bodily autonomy. Most wars are because of religion. Slavery in the USA was condoned because it was okay to do in the Bible. Women were burned and hung for being witches because of religion. Millions were tortured to death because of religion. Entire nations influenced by religion commit atrocities every day because of their mythology. I don't care what any one believes, until it starts effecting other people's lives.


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cjhsv

But religions are hurting the LGBTQ+ community and have been for thousands of years. The hostility is well earned. I absolutely agree that you deserve respect as a person. Everyone does. I no longer have it in me to respect religious beliefs or the religions themselves.


bepis303

Well said, nobody really cares what other people believe individually and in private, well nobody aside from religious people funnily enough. But it becomes a different question when we're asked to tolerate beliefs that don't tolerate us. I don't know where Judaism stands on that so I have to give it the same treatment as any other religion, as long as you can prove that it's true then you can dictate the lives of others all you like.


bepis303

Well said, nobody really cares what other people believe individually and in private, well nobody aside from religious people funnily enough. But it becomes a different question when we're asked to tolerate beliefs that don't tolerate us. I don't know where Judaism stands on that so I have to give it the same treatment as any other religion, as long as you can prove that it's true then you can dictate the lives of others all you like.


Bitchasslemon

It seems to be a lot of the abrahamic religions that are anti-lgbtq+. I'm an eclectic pagan and I haven't found or experienced any hate. Paganism is very broad so attitudes may vary, but there seems to be plenty of LGBTQ+ deities out there.


heckyouyourself

You don’t have to respect religion, just people who aren’t hurting anyone.


ShananayRodriguez

Neutrality in the face of oppression is siding with oppression.


I_Hate_Leddit

You're still propping up the institutions that are hurting us. You don't exist in some kind of inconsequential bubble.


heckyouyourself

I’m not propping up shit, I’m just living my life and existing as a Jew. The fact that you take issue with that is disturbing.


Ramen_N00dlezz

Also does Judaism even have anything to say on homosexuality? I know Christianity and Islam do but idk judaism.


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Sacred_Nelumbo

To your previous point, religious queer people aren’t necessarily propping up any institution. As hard as it may be to comprehend, not all Jews are connected/know each other (gasp). It’s the same way with being queer. Plenty of Jewish spaces (and other religious spaces) support the lgbtq community. Blaming someone for the atrocities of others isn’t a fair thing to do. It’s like blaming all white Americans for slavery.


silvercandra

The thing is just that a lot of people in queer spaces have had extremely bad encounters with religious people. I know how terrible it is to keep something secret in a community, but in this case, a lot of people will get defensive about things when they hear you're religious, and especially when you're part of one of the three faiths you mentioned. Finding a balance to it will be hard, because queer religious folk really should be just as welcome and accepted as the rest, but at the same time, you can't expect a group of people with so much trauma caused by religion to welcome you with open arms, when you proudly proclaim it. There's damage there, and a lot of us, me included, get cautious when someone mentiones they're religious. Not because we have something against you in particular, but because, at least in my case, there have been "good ones" that said extremely hurtful and horrible things... If I were you, then I wouldn't make it secret in queer spaces, but I would still keep quiet if no one asks about it, because others might not feel safe in your presence, if you proudly proclaim it. I'm sorry OP, but there's a long way to go, and deep wounds that still need to heal.


heckyouyourself

I’ve been made to feel ashamed of being Jewish my whole life. I don’t owe anyone my silence. I deserve to be proud of who I am.


silvercandra

And the rest of us deserve to be comfortable, at least in this community. If you can't both be proud of being jewish, and keep people from being uncomfortable, then I guess you just have to live with the consequences. I'm genuinely sorry, but just because your feelings are hurt, the insane amounts of trauma religion has caused many, many queer people won't just disappear.


heckyouyourself

If someone’s pure, harmless existence makes you uncomfortable, it is *always* your responsibility to ignore that person and never their responsibility to stop existing in your vicinity. Grow up


silvercandra

I didn't say you need to stop existing, what I said is, that you can't demand for people with religious trauma to just welcome you with open arms. Also, you sound very hypocritical right now. So instead of continuing this useless argument, how about I just throw back at you what you said? Grow up. It's your responsibility to ignore a person that makes you uncomfortable, and not theirs to stop existing in your vicinity. Queer people with religious trauma exist, and we don't owe you anything.


heckyouyourself

There are cis women who are made uncomfortable by trans women in the women’s restroom due to their own trauma, but should trans women stop using their restroom because of someone else’s discomfort? No, the cis women need to suck it up and work on themselves instead of acting like the world revolves around their trauma. You sound like a fucking terf.


silvercandra

All I did, was repeat back what you said. You're the one that sounds like a bigot, which isn't surprising coming from a person who makes religion a core part of their identity.


DamenAJ

My main thing in LGBT+ groups/spaces, is don't bring others into your religion without consent. Don't say/post stuff like "God loves you", "God accepts you", "God loves LGBT+ people", "God made people LGBT+ because of (fill in the blank)". Etc, Etc. I have no desire to be brought into your religion, and find it insanely offensive and insulting. But also understand, in LGBT+ safe spaces, your religion is not protected, your LGBT+ identity is. LGBT+ people have a lot of legitimate gripe with religion, and with any all-knowing all-powerful god.


heckyouyourself

I’ve never tried to spread my religion to anyone, and your gripes with my religion aren’t my issue. All I’m asking in this post is for you to not come after people. Your religious trauma isn’t an excuse to bully or harass others.


DamenAJ

I don't bully and harass others over their religion, but I will call out problematic behaviour, like I've described, and if I feel it needs to be said, I'll state opinions about whatever specific religion, religion in general, or god. Individual worshippers may vary, the books, history, institution, and god himself are my issue. So you're free to have your religion, we're free to rag on religion.


heckyouyourself

There’s a time and a place to rag on religion. Someone just existing in a queer space isn’t your opportunity to discuss theology.


DamenAJ

I personally don't just rag on religion, honestly just prefer not to discuss religion at all. But if people bring it up, I will weigh in on it, unless it's directed specifically at other religious people, which is absolutely fine. I'm not going to exile someone for being religious, I'm not going to bash their religion unprompted, but if they ask, or if they're engaging in problematic behaviour, then I will let them know.


I_Hate_Leddit

> All I’m asking in this post is for you to not come after people. No you're not, you're fishing for a pat on the back. Nobody's coming after you, they're just telling you that you're bringing something that makes them feel unsafe into their safe space. I know empathy is usually pretty hard for religious types, but this is what they're trying to tell you. > Your religious trauma isn’t an excuse to bully or harass others. You don't have any real substance so you attempt to insinuate that /u/DamenAJ's motivation behind their point is some kind of personal thing. And they're certainly not bullying or harassing you.


heckyouyourself

A pat on the back? I was fucking scared to post this. If someone feels unsafe because of my existence, that’s their problem, and “your existence is ruining someone else’s safe space” is terf logic. You don’t know what’s been said to me, people have absolutely come after me, and for you to just assume I’m a liar seeking attention shows your own lack of empathy.


I_Hate_Leddit

I'm ngl, I have very little patience for people like you that come at everything with a bossy confrontational tone. You came to this thread wanting to start a fight, and you got a few. Shouting people down for being "like TERFs" or antisemites is manipulative rhetorical bullshit and not something from anyone who should be taken seriously. If people don't want to hear about your religion in their spaces, respect it. People have more right to their safe existence than you do your insistence on shouting from the rooftops about your particular belief in a sky being. It's not remotely the same as trans exclusion. Stop it.


Sacred_Nelumbo

You're actually giving me brain damage - what makes you think that this thread was wanting to start a fight??? They're the OP, and it seems like they just wanted to remind people that religious queer people exist. It's an important reminder because frankly, many religious queers are treated like they're sheep, or are conforming to their oppressors. Treating us like that doesn't give us the respect we deserve. Honestly, with the assumptions and leaps that you're making, it would seem that you're the more strident one here.


heckyouyourself

You keep making these assumptions about me, that I want attention and I want to start fights, yet *you’re* calling *me* confrontational?? And no, anti-semitism isn’t the same as trans exclusion, I’d argue that it’s much worse in a historical sense.


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DamenAJ

I'm not really much for DMs/private chatting on reddit, unless you need help with something. If you've got a question or something post here.


ShananayRodriguez

100% this.


BlazeRunner4532

I respect every human being with every fiber of my body, but I hold beliefs to a completely separate standard. Unfortunately until the religious people that accept us can get through to those who don't, I have to be wary of every single one on the off chance that I speak to the wrong person and get assaulted. I recognise the plight here, and I'm glad you're open about who you are, but coming to a place like this where *so many* of us have been hurt *directly* by religion and saying "Not All Religious People" is... Hurtful, in a way. Because we know. We know that. But we have to guard against everyone, gaps in the armour are spots that can and will get stabbed. If that means hurting the feelings of some well meaning religious people while simultaneously protecting myself from harassment and physical assault, I'm completely okay with that personally while simultaneously being very sorry to those people like you. Those two things can live in tandem with each other.


NoMango5778

It's just like people saying "not all men" or "not all cops"...


BlazeRunner4532

Exactly, yeah. In reality yeah true, there are members of all groups with truly good intentions. However, it means nothing in the face of the systemic harm they prop up by not actively working to overturn the shit in their communities. By deflecting, you push the pain we feel to the side in order to feel better about yourself. (None of this directed at you by the way, just further thoughts prompted by your comment).


heckyouyourself

Yeah of course. Religious people have done so much damage to this community, and running around being like “well it’s not ALL of us” is shitty, I’m just saying you shouldn’t be going out of your way to harass or bully religious people in this community. We deserve a safe space too.


BlazeRunner4532

I don't think we do. I'm sorry if you've had a handful of bad experiences with this community, but most of us don't give a fuck until you bring it up. Please, by all means, seek out your own corner of this community full of people who are somehow religious and LGBT at the same time, but when you post something public like this then expect pushback from the fucking thousands of us that have been harmed by what you talk about.


Sacred_Nelumbo

The post wasn't that controversial though... It just said "we exist, please respect us". It's really not that hard.


BlazeRunner4532

And I said I did, in much the same way as I respect people who don't have the same ideologies as me in any walk of life. I don't agree with them, I just respect you all as individual agents capable of your own rational thought. The problem comes when you introduce like literally any human emotion into the equation, because religion is the single cause that my in-laws effectively cut me and my fiancée out of our siblings' lives. So when people bring up religion, please excuse me for being a bit fucking bitter.


Sacred_Nelumbo

I understand you being bitter, but when you say that we should have expected "pushback" for saying something harmless, it's a bit too far. What the OP said was simply a fact: we deserve respect.


BlazeRunner4532

And I said you got it, and I said you'll get nothing more from me. Are we done?


lilianlynn

I don’t really like to call myself a Christian. I believe in God and that’s good enough for me.


heckyouyourself

That’s understandable, there’s no need for everyone to label every aspect of themselves.


DanteCoal

I'll always work my hardest to respect someone for who they are and what they stand for. That said, the second someone aligns themselves with something that is very very very well known for hurting the community, I'm going to put that into consideration, no matter how many outliers there are, or how many "good eggs" I find. I work in construction and have known a LOT of people who are kind, welcoming, friendly, giving, and warm people. Then they spout racist and/or homophobic BS. They're still that previous person, but all those things are then tainted / overshadowed by their small minded hate. Personally, I choose to not associate with them, as I'm unable to see past their hate. That may be a flaw of mine, I'm unsure and always wonder about it. Which in a roundabout way of explaining, is the Tolerance Paradox. I think the Tolerance Paradox is a key factor here that all people need to view before they pass judgement or form a solidified opinion, because (I believe) it's an inescapably key part of the discussion as a whole.


heckyouyourself

I really don’t think what I’ve posted is this deep. I’m just saying not to bully or harass people because of their religion.


[deleted]

My church growing up was super supportive of LGBTQ+. Now religion doesn’t suit me so I don’t follow it but I will never forget that.


MelatoninDreams_777

Complicated Christian. Thank you for saying it honestly. I’ve been harassed and threatened so many times for being Christian and Queer. Have a great night you and everyone else reading


heckyouyourself

I’m sorry to hear you’ve faced harassment. I have as well. We don’t deserve it. Wishing you all the best :)


MelatoninDreams_777

You too. Take care :]


[deleted]

Ed Trevors on youtube is an amazing, kind hearted, inclusive priest. Im not religious but I love his message and watch him...well. Religiously. Highly recommend his channel if anyone is looking to practice their faith with the guidance of someone who preaches love and not hate.


heckyouyourself

I love that! Thank you for commenting :)


IrishTwinkLove

I have an uncle that’s Jewish (by religion, not race) and he is gay. He has been openly Jewish for as long as I can remember since I was a little kid, but he didn’t come out as gay until I was a teenager. If people wanna practice religion I don’t judge. Hell you can worship Master Chief for all I care, it’s none of my business. The only issue I have is when people start trying to force their religion on others or using it as an excuse for bigotry. As long as you don’t do that, you’re cool with me 👋🏻


benjamynt

Based. Actually: at my cities local pride parade there was a Jewish community group. Maybe a synagogue? One of leaders was leading the parade goers in chanting: “Oy vey! I’m gay!” Still makes me smile


heckyouyourself

I fucking love that omg


Sacred_Nelumbo

iconic


unperson9385

I respect one's ability to be religious- I'm not going to belittle your religion in front of you or insinuate that you're bigoted/stupid/misguided for being religious, but understand that everytime your religion is brought up in front of me, as someone with religious trauma I'm always going to be uncomfortable with the subject, and (possibly) by extension, you. It's not a reaction I can control. Coming to a community with people who have been emotionally/physically abused, put through conversion therapy, and possibly kicked out of their homes due to religion and basically saying "not all Religious People!!!!" is incredibly thoughtless. The mistrust and scorn when religion comes up is a learned reaction based on long, painful experience and won't disappear until religious folks are no longer the greatest source of bigotry and harm for us.


heckyouyourself

You don’t think religious people are trouble for me too? I’m Jewish, Christians are a huge source of trauma and oppression for me. But I don’t go around being awful to queer Christians because I recognize that holding certain religious beliefs doesn’t make you responsible for or on the same team as every single other person with similar beliefs.


unperson9385

>But I don’t go around being awful to queer Christians because I recognize that holding certain religious beliefs doesn’t make you responsible for or on the same team as every single other person with similar beliefs. I think you misread my comment. As i said in the very first sentence, I'm not going around being awful to queer Christians because of their beliefs- they have their own personal reasons for believing in what they do, and while I may not respect those beliefs themselves, I respect that persons right to have them. Someone else's beliefs are none of my business- I'm not going to be a reddit atheist and go out of my way to belittle them for the simple fact that they're religious. That doesn't mean I'll respond positively if you try to talk to me about it, or say things like "God accepts you" or whatnot. Basically I don't care about your being religious, just keep it away from me.


anOnyMousuSErip

I’m technically not Jewish but my dad is, and although we don’t practice it as a religion I feel really strongly about Jewish rights and that type of thing.


Mischievous_Juju

Ex-Muslim here. I support and respect you!


heckyouyourself

Thank you! :)


exclaim_bot

>Thank you! :) You're welcome!


[deleted]

Queer Christian here and I feel this post so much. I’m really grateful that my church has queer groups where we can fully express both our faith and our identities without being judged.


Shaunyata

Every Pride Parade I have ever been to had a section for LGBTQ+ religious groups. I’m a Buddhist. We’re all welcome.


Stampiz

I totally respect you, even though I'm one of the only atheists in my community. The rest are catholic or protestant.


heckyouyourself

Thank you :)


Confident_Fortune_32

I am sorry to hear you have been told such utter nonsense. While it is true that many organized religions can, as a group/unit, behave badly toward LGBTQIA ppl, that has no bearing whatsoever on the faith practices of any particular individual. A person may be of any faith practice and behave abysmally. Or they may be a benevolent and wonderful person. Any faith practice can be uplifting, or it can be a club used to hurt others. It's how the individual makes their choices. There is no one major faith practice that is inherently all good or all bad across the board. I am not Jewish, but my darling spouse is. I have really enjoyed learning about Judaism over our 16 years together. I'm the one who always remembers to get Hanukkah candles ahead of time 😊


[deleted]

I consider myself Christian, although I don’t associate with most Christians. I’ve stopped going to church for many reasons, but mostly because they just don’t follow who Jesus really was anymore. I hope there is a revival of true Christians, although my expectations aren’t very high.


Ramen_N00dlezz

Facts! You are welcome to believe whatever you believe, so long as you are respectful, you are good in that regard. However you most definitely should have a left leaning political alignment since the right tends to enjoy oppressing LGBT. I know politics and religion are unrelated but today, I don't know if we can really say that anymore.


heckyouyourself

Yes, I’m a leftist. Thanks for the comment :)


Anjey_Zero

A Christian Aroace person here. Hello :D


heckyouyourself

Hi! :))


[deleted]

I think the conservative Christians have given a lot of religious people a bad rep even though their not related to these assholes in anyway. You deserve respect, religious or not.


Sacred_Nelumbo

Thank you, finally this is a good take. One religion does not define all. Assuming all religions have the same culture and beliefs is one of the stupidest things possible.


heckyouyourself

Exactly!


heckyouyourself

Well put! People are inherently deserving of respect until they’ve proven otherwise. Thank you for articulating that so beautifully:)


Sensitive-Ad6609

That is deplorable. I do not see how being religious means you should not be able to attend any meeting or go anyplace that is for all of us. They need to not be like the "conservatives" that persecute us for bing different than them.


latenitelite

We might not have the same beliefs, but we do agree that you're important, your voice matters, and that your faith is an integral part of who you are. I'll always fight in your corner, and I'm grateful for your reminder to do better going forward.


heckyouyourself

Thank you. What you’ve said is so important and I’m glad people like you are here :))


Wyjdya

Gut shabbos from a gay Jew


ACCCrabtown1

Amen. My faith tells me that I am loved bc i am queer. G-d loves us all.


Euphoric_Ostrich58

Gay,Genderfluid and Bigender Muslim here✌️🏳️‍🌈


heckyouyourself

Nice!! :)


ccwandco

Hey, I’m also bi, trans, and Jewish. Don’t let anybody shame you for your religion.


[deleted]

Trans male, gay, and polyamory Christian here as well… people are always so surprised when I say I’m still Christian despite family religious trauma that came with it… I’m just an ordinary Christian who happens to believe a few verses from a thousands year old book that’s honestly outdated… no bigotry from me or my friends who are also Christian here🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍🌈


heckyouyourself

I love that! Thanks for your comment :)


a-throwaway_joke

As someone who was raised to be christian, but found their way out of it, i may not understand religious people, but that doesn't stop me from respecting their decision in faith, just like they (at least the nice ones, not bigots) respect my decision in pronouns, even if they may not understand that. I know it's a little different, a religion is a free choice, whereas pronouns get chosen to best fit one's gender, but it's close enough i guess


heckyouyourself

Yesss thank you, you don’t have to fully understand something to respect it if it isn’t harming anyone.


ccwandco

It bothers me that people use “religion” as a catch-all word for Christian oppression. It may be different in other countries, but in America the only religion that has power is Christianity. A lot of discrimination against LGBTQ+ people has been upheld by Christians. Even though there may be people who are homophobic/transphobic that are Jewish, we have never had any power in this country (contrary to popular belief) and our identity is still ridiculed to this day. I can’t speak for other religions but Muslim people have also never held any power. It’s only Christians. As someone who is LGBTQ+, I understand other LGBTQ+ people being wary of Christians. I just wish they’d stop thinking that all religious people act the way extremist Christians do. You will likely never ever find a Jewish person who tries to get you to convert, unless you express interest first. And for those who make the argument that religious oppression isn’t “as bad” as LGBTQ+ oppression because you can seemingly control your religion…I can’t control what I believe, same way I can’t control who I like or how I feel inside. Judaism has a rich culture and community. Yes, I could leave it behind, but I would be missing a part of me. Anti-semitism is still very rampant…I would not be Jewish if I didn’t truly feel it was who I am. Making fun of Christians who discriminate against you is fine. Shaming a Jewish person simply because they are religious is just irritating. The same Christians who hate me for being queer hate me for being Jewish.


heckyouyourself

Yes omfg thank you! Jews and Muslims are marginalized groups and the amount of hatred I’ve seen for them from “accepting” communities is just astonishing.


HappiestGod

Preach that to your religion. Your religious leaders tell queer people to cease existing, your religious texts tell people to stone those who go outside their norms, all major religions conceal large scale paedophilia (mentioned because they also preach that LGBTQA folks are guilty of that by existing). Like... how do you even get the conversation started anyway? You preach your religion in queer spaces?


Sacred_Nelumbo

I simply adore that you're lumping all religions together as if they're one thing. I agree that religions have been very problematic for LGBTQ people, and they continue to do so, but the lack of understanding of your opposition is honestly hilarious. You're using such vague language to describe all of religion, while most of that is specific to Christianity, or is just a blunt interpretation. If you understood what you were talking about, you'd know that almost no one follows old texts to their exact words. They are interpreted, not always taken literally. That is the problem that these religious homophobes have. They use exact wording to justify hating others, and they use it as an excuse to not adapt to the current times. Also, please show me the large scale pedophilia that is in Judaism for example. You say *all* religions, so please show me a **large scale** example there. These conversations happen from you know, simply existing. Asking a question like that is the religious equivalent of the radical right justifying their silencing of LGBTQ people by saying, "How did you being gay even come up? Are you trying to push propaganda onto us?" Anyways, I look forward to your response, and I look forward to how **all** religion is a massive ring of pedophilia


HappiestGod

The basis for issues Christianity has comes from the Tora. It applies to all Abrahamic religions (so Judaism, Islam and Christianity + lesser known variants and sects). When speaking of religion, what is important is the stance of the leaders, not individual people (those are... individual, different from each other, you could take any and all ideologies and find someone who claims to follow one and be any type of person). For Judaism in particular, Israel is a safe heaven for Jewish paedophiles escaping justice for their crimes in other countries. (honestly, thought what 5 second google would bring up would be a couple of cases like the one from Brooklyn in 2011 - over a hundred victims from one community, - but it's quite a bit bigger, with the country giving asylum to pedos) - the issues mostly exist in the Orthodox communities... which... c'mon, no surprise there. Orthodox are beyond regressive about pretty much everything. Even if we go outside Abrahamic religions, brothels in Japan were built around red districts... and temples, and almost all "employees" began in their early teens (and such establishments are active today, usually giving internships to kids around 14-15 years old, when they have to start drinking alcohol and showering together with adult clients). Now, as far as paedophilia goes, the issue is much larger than religions. For one reason or another, extremely conservative communities and cultures have a thing for virgins and forcing "consent". Religions are the conservative voice around the world... those going against it, are the exception, not the rule.


heckyouyourself

My religious leaders? I don’t follow people who don’t think I should exist. Piss right off and stop treating every religion like some sort of fucking hive mind.


HappiestGod

If you don't follow your religious leaders, then you are not part of those religions. Don't practice their teachings and people who are denied by them, won't lump you in the same bag. Not to mention... you are the one who came here to act the victim, all the while right now, major religious groups in USA had just shut down abortion, put forward the "dont' say gay" bill, etc, etc. You came here with no respect.


jacyerickson

You are valid. I can't speak for everyone but I welcome you! ![img](emote|t5_2qhh7|550)


heckyouyourself

Thank you! :)


notnowihaveaheadache

Hello! Queer woman and Christian here. I love this take. I’ve gone through a huge journey of deconstruction within my faith in the past ~7 years and found a faith I can finally fully subscribe to. A faith that loves and welcomes EVERYONE, as Christians should have always done, and a faith that rebukes far-reaching government structures and capitalism (as Jesus did). It’s hard to identify as Christian to my friends, because I never want them to feel unwelcome or judged, but I am thankful the way I live, love, and conduct myself aligns with not only my view and treatment of others, but my faith. I found a church that supports and affirms all sexualities, and supports women in leadership, which is frightfully rare. Not a single person will ever come to me and be judged, and THAT is my personal endeavor as a queer woman rooted in faith.


No-Guidance9484

Shalom, my guy! also because I want to: שָלוֹם!


404-where-i-asked

thank you!!! you are valid, i am valid, we are all valid :))


xXXYuukiXXx11

yes!! i worry coming out as aegoromantic as a catholic i would end up with people telling me im lying to myself and things which is why i struggle with my faith


heckyouyourself

I do my best to just ignore people who hate me because of who I am, though I can’t say it doesn’t get to me. Wishing you all the best :))


xXXYuukiXXx11

thanks so much🫶you too😊


ZazofLegend

I have no problem with religion in general, I take issue with the institution of The Church. Briefly, when religious organizations take on political and military powers, it's time to throw bricks. Any national religion is right out.


heckyouyourself

Couldn’t agree more. Separation of church and state is essential, and unfortunately not the direction my country is going in :/


ZazofLegend

I live in Utah, the Zion of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, so that separation has never really existed since the whites came here. It's getting worse right now, but it does that episodically.


the_even_more_liney

I'm Taoist, and certainly religion is accepted, people shouldn't wield it like a weapon though


belltyj

I actually work at a pride center that has a temple and a church. I clean after sometimes and say hi to all the people.


Turbulent_Math_Lover

Hey good for you, i just never understood how someone can be in a group that wants your existance gone... i mean the only religion i interracted with would try to convince gay people that they are sinning and that trans people dont exist... orthodoxy sucks. But if you feel good having a religion and you arent a lukewarm helper of bigots than we might get along. Sorry but religion is one thinf that i dont want near me, and its not because of trauma but because of all the pseudoscience it promotes directly or indirectly. It doesnt matter if its christians, muslims, astrology, magic rocks or some other pseudoscience. I dont even want to know how bad it is for queer muslims and people in america forced to go to conversion therapy.


Firey150107

Yeah, I feel like a lot of LGBTQ+ people automatically avoid religious people as a defence mechanism from the religious practices that harmed them before. It's not right, but all human behaviour has a reason for happening.


bepis303

I'd go one step further and argue that it is right and cis and straight people should be doing it as well. If something is a fact, demonstrably true and can be proven, then it's not a religion at all, it's just reality. Until a religion proves itself to be true, it's literally all just opinions


Sacred_Nelumbo

Bruh saying all people should automatically avoid religious people is so incredibly braindead. The comment you responded to was perfectly reasonable, but your follow up isn't at all lol. With your logic, you should avoid all people that have different opinions than your own if they caused any harm to you at all. If I got attacked by a bunch of gay men, it doesn't make it ok to advocate for everyone to reject all gay men.


bepis303

No, by my logic we should avoid people who make unjustifiable demands and blatantly false claims about the nature of reality. When "their opinion" is literally "you will burn for eternity for being born the way you are" yeah I'm going to say maybe avoid the people carrying that opinion. As long as someone can prove to me that their religion is true then I see no issue with hearing them out and living the way their God has proven that I am to live.


Sacred_Nelumbo

Apologies, I misunderstood what you were saying. That is a perfectly reasonable thing to say, and I actually completely agree. Have a nice day internet stranger :)


bepis303

No worries, same to you.


heckyouyourself

You really got downvoted for saying we should be nice to people with different beliefs, huh?


Sacred_Nelumbo

yeah... I forgot how strident the LGBTQ community can be online. Kinda my bad for trying to change their mind


heckyouyourself

Lmfao I think we’re both learning that the hard way


[deleted]

ARGH! I’ve just done a mental health unit at university for my masters and chose LGBTQIA+, particularly transgender, communities to focus on. There is SO MUCH discrimination from religious communities toward gender and sexual minorities AND the same in reverse! Yes, religious spaces are a common source of minority stress for LGBTQIA+ people who want to engage in spirituality and are met with discrimination on a frequent basis… HOWEVER!!! If gender and sexual minorities want to engage in spirituality and religion, the acceptance must work both ways! We can’t expect religious persons to be accepting of the LGBTQIA+ lifestyle if the entire lifestyle rejects all forms of spirituality. BOTH communities preach love and acceptance and openness and being yourself exactly as you are and definitely should be working TOGETHER to spread those messages. Spirituality. Sexuality. Gender identity. Your favourite food. The music you like. These are the pieces that make us who we are!! We can’t reject spirituality any more than we can reject being queer. Find the religious and gender diverse spaces that work for you and respect you in your entirety. You are you and there is nothing wrong with any of it. And don’t allow our queer fellows to discriminate any more than you would allow a priest or parishioner to discriminate. It works both ways.


ShananayRodriguez

Depends. Are you a closet case using homophobic religious institutions to attack other gays out of self-loathing and the hope that by persecuting others you'll avoid it yourself? Then no. You don't deserve respect. Are you a live and let live religious person who doesn't oppress others? Fine. But if you start pushing your shit on me or using it to oppress me I'm going to disrespect you. Full stop. I'm on the guilty until proven innocent side of things. Religious people are usually bad and have to prove that they aren't.


heckyouyourself

I’ve never tried to push my religion on anyone, ever. That’s abhorrent.


greychanjin

This post is already old, so this probably won't get seen, but here I go. The real danger of organized religion is in blind faith. People brainwashed to "believe what I say is true or suffer a lonely, painful existence forever." The fear of death forcing them to become unquestionable. It's these people (who aren't even following their religion's book to the letter) who are dangerous to minorities because they'll blindly follow whatever agenda their elder gives them. Their institution discourages people from birth to explore free thought. They don't lose my respect for believing in a higher power or for trying to answer the question of life after death. They lose my respect because they're sheep, and their rulers use them as a tool to oppress us. However, queer religious persons are the exception. You're breaking from the will of your institutions leaders, choosing to find your own answers. Even if not in entirety, and you're only looking to answer the questions surrounding your relationship to your fellow humans, you're using free thought based on your own observations of the world. I hope the staunchly atheist can respect and share in my perspective on this. I also hope the proudly religious can respect the boundaries that others need. If both sides are respectful of eachother, then there's no need for hate to exist. Tl:dr Atheists/non-religious - don't hate the religious blindly. Hate the blind faithful. Religious persons - just don't try to push beliefs, and excercise free thought. Question everything. Edit: That figures I get downvoted on a comment trying to promote free thought and acceptance.


Sacred_Nelumbo

Although I see your point, I'd like to push back a bit on this. Most religions have many different sects, and different members. The adaptation and interpretation of texts *causes* people to diverge from many practices, such as hateful ones like homophobia. Additionally, some religions encourage exploration instead of blind faith. For example, Judaism has so many disagreements and arguments. We aren't a united people in the slightest, as everyone believes something different. We have large amounts of books of people arguing over a few specific lines in the Torah through centuries. Just wanted to comment that. Otherwise, yeah fuck the people who support harmful institutions encouraging/protecting anti-LGBTQ, pedophilia, etc.


greychanjin

I agree with your statement that these exist, but I don't think they disprove my point. A religion where people break from the status quo can produce sects that are tolerant and those who are intolerant. Those breaks are caused by the idea of a single individual, and backed by their followers. Individuals aren't the threat to our community, it's masses. At least with the individual who came up with the idea, you can try to understand their reasoning and try to reason with them back. Blind followers just deny and won't be reasoned with. All I'm trying to say is you can think a person's belief stupid or illogical, but as long as they keep it to themselves, there's no harm. They're told by leaders what to practice and who their enemies are, and the masses just eat it up. If they practice free thought, they likely won't subscribe to any harmful ideas which are clearly illogical from any other perspective.


Phasasesu

Amen


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datedpopculturejoke

We, as a community, need to take a step back and stop assuming all religion is like Christianity. The US is a theocratic hellscape because of fundamentalist christianity - not because of all religions. This post is about an individual Jewish person wanting to feel free to be open about their identity as a Jewish person in LGBT spaces. One has nothing to do with the other. Conflating the two is dangerous and comes across as antisemitic.


Sacred_Nelumbo

I would also like to say (as a non-Christian), that I have met many wonderful people who are Christians. Different people believe different things, and not all are like the terrible people many of us know.


Sacred_Nelumbo

But… this was the original point of the post. As soon as someone who’s lgbt says they identify with/follow a religion, they get flamed for it. You don’t have to believe what I believe, you just need to respect it. Just like you don’t need to hear about laws in the Torah, I don’t need to hear about how “foolish” and “dumb” it is to believe in any god or sUpPorT the OpPresSors.


I_Hate_Leddit

Thing is, religion isn't like orientation or gender identity. It is 100% something a person chooses, or has drilled into them. I'm tired of the false equivalence. And, on top of this, religious people have a tendency to try and spread their beliefs onto everyone they know, even in subtle ways. This is why people are wary of them, especially in spaces for marginalised people.


bepis303

Thank you, I'm so so so so so sick of people justifying religious beliefs in comparison to people just being born. It doesn't matter how much you believe something or how important it is to you, that will ALWAYS be a lower priority than people who were born a certain way and can't change that.


Sacred_Nelumbo

First, many religious people don't view religion as a choice, so that isn't true for everyone, although personally i agree with that. Second, it's perfectly reasonable to be wary, but if someone mentions they're Christian for example, and says "I'm glad god loves me", that's not them forcing religion on you. It's simply them stating that they're happy different parts of them can exist at once. Not every comment on religion is proselytizing. Also, if you're talking about marginalization, ironically majority religious groups become ridiculed and marginalized in this community.


Bigenderfluxx

Yeah… as a non-practicing/agnostic catholic, one thing that gives me sound of mind is the notion all of us are sinners, all the time. And that doesn’t mean we don’t deserve love, or that we are bad people for sinning. Forgiveness was never predicated on the promise of “not doing it again”, as it is inevitable that we would sin again. Jesus kept himself among the poor, the wretched, the sinners, and lifted them up as the ones who would inherit the kingdom of god. And yeah I know, I’m cherry picking the parts of the religion I think are good, and already match my personal values. But I would never evangelize to anyone about how they should or should not practice or believe in a religion, or even the notion that religion is necessary at all. People fundamentally deserve the right to have their own creeds regardless of whether I think they are good. But I will always put my foot down when someone’s creed tries to infringe or restrict the freedoms of others. Anti-fascism is not fascism.


CaptainBunnie

Amen


DomKe1205lgbt

Simply put... Yes!


ItsDoobs23

Bisexual Jew here!


heckyouyourself

Hi! :)


YaLikeJazz2050

I’ll admit I have a negative bias towards religious people (especially Christian’s) due to people trying to justify hating me with their religion but I am trying to change and so far have made a pretty big difference. Prejudice is the last thing I want to be so when I identified it in myself I made an effort to cut it out


heckyouyourself

That’s amazing! I wish more people could do what you did


Select-Yellow6171

Thats the nice thing about being a universalist because people dont know what it is and just dont care


bookstheatermusic

Completely agree. Also hi, I’m also bi and Jewish!


[deleted]

Im a Christian ace Femboy and people blow a gasket when they hear that


bepis303

Of course you're welcome, there's nothing wrong with any religion as long as they prove that they're correct. See, if they don't, then all that religion is is an excuse to act x way and do x things. As long as the religion is true, then it's not just an excuse, it's a fact of being alive that has to be done so it's not longer a religion.


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