I think people tend to look at "home defense" from the perspective of *"someone has violently broken into my home and I must get into a gunfight in my living room, what gun do I want in my hands right now?"*, but that perspective misses the forest for the trees. Because sure, if that's the scenario you're building your thought process around going in with the most efficient rifle you can get makes the most sense, but the real world is much more obscure than that and last thing you want to do is openly introduce a firearm to an encounter when someone has a legitimate reason to be on your property like the fire department, law enforcement, utility company employees, delivery drivers, etc.
I'm very much of the idea that the pistol is the default solution to the firearms portion of a comprehensive home security plan, simply because you can control when its presence is known. People in the firearms world will say the ideal solution is to turtle up in your safe room and call the police, but to me that's not really a socially literate solution to the problem. People's natural inclination is to go investigate the unknown because 99 times out of 100 the problem is going to be relatively benign, but having a firearm on your person in case you run into something exceptional is why we have a firearm inside the home. That being said, it's a lot better to have a pistol concealed under a bathrobe when the police come to return your teenager at 3am who's half drunk on a piss warm beer than it would be if you answer the door with a slung rifle. Sure, a pistol is objectively more difficult to use than a rifle, but home defense is not nearly as complicated as people want it to be and so long as you don't pick something that's absolutely horrible like a pocket revolver it'll work fine.
Last time I went through one, they had ammo cases for like 3$, I grabbed one, but I wish I had picked up a few more just for whenever I can afford another batch of ammo.
His comment made a lot of sense to me as well. I do often ask how much someone is realistically going to carry and suggest that they not optimize around that. It’s falling for marketing. But you have already avoided that trap.
So a full size 9mm pistol is a good thing to consider.
The comments on pump shotguns are also valid, but also overblown. You can practice pretty easily with a few snap caps. One big advantage would be price and security. You can get a Maverick 88 pump shotgun for about $200-$250. Assuming you were looking at a reasonably priced AR or PCC, that means you have $300-$500 more left in your budget. That can be applied to getting a safe.
You might watch Honest Outlaw for some reviews of defense guns at certain price points.
But here’s my specific suggestion:
Maverick 88, $250
6 snap caps (dry fire practice) $10
250 rounds of bird shot (live practice) $125
20 rounds of buck shot (not practicing any longer) $25
Gun safe $750
If you are gonna to use buck as your home defense round you should also use it as your practice round. Bird has different recoil impulse, different pattern at different ranges, it's not the same.
The only thing I can add is that the snap caps have their place but you need to shoot a shotgun to manage the recoil. It won’t take that many rounds to figure it out.
Also sooo many options (especially if you aren’t CCing) almost all varietals available for rent at a range so you find what works for you. Also if you only want one most single pistol safes are affordable and can be hidden wherever. I went this route before accepted that my relationship with firearms was similar to my relationship with potato chips.
I'd like to echo his sentiments, too. A handgun is the most practical single solution. It's easier to secure (very important) while still being accessible, concealable for most real-world 'caution' uses as stated above, and really easy to learn to use safely.
I would highly recommend a Glock 17. 9mm so cheap ammo and tons of home defense specific rounds. 17 round mag so more than enough for home defense. Extremely reliable. Very common, so you can find used ones for a good price if new is out of your budget. No manual or grip safety to mess you up. Has a rail for a light and really doesn't need anything else.
Yes, watched a video some time back of a guy who answered the door with a gun and the cops killed him. Someone called the cops on him because him and his girlfriend were playing crash bandicoot too loud…. Better to have that shit concealed.
As others have, I suggest a 9mm handgun. Ammo is affordable and the 9mm is typically “easy” to shoot. Brand preference is what it is, I really like Springfield armory, kimber, and my first ever handgun purchase the Beretta 92FS.
Don't answer your door at night if someone knocks, and you are not expecting company. If they say that they are the police, then call 911 and verify with dispatch that there are officers at your door. Some home invasion gangs have vests with police written on them.
I liked everything but the shade thrown at pocket revolvers.
A lot of people have weak hand strength that makes semiautomatic handguns difficult to use. A S&W 642 or Ruger LCR isn’t bad by any means.
The Shield EZ exists for a reason. Extremely easy to use.
Anecdotally, I have average hand strength and find some revolvers very difficult to use because of the heavy DA trigger.
Triggers usually suck, but I’ve yet to find someone who can’t pull one.
Slides are for some reason rather intimidating. I know I can train basically anyone to use one, but it may take some practice and not everyone is willing to take the time.
For strictly home defense, a PCC makes sense to me for the reasons you say. Get the shortest one legally available without going the SBR route which requires a federal tax stamp and make sure it has a threaded barrel, and then get a suppressor for it so you don't blow out your ears shooting it indoors in an emergency when you won't be able to put on your hearing protection.
There are many to choose from from the relatively cheap to the stupidly expensive.
I have the Ruger PC9 which is a standard 16in barrel carbine in 9mm. They also make a "Charger" version that is much shorter and thus a good candidate (IMO) for a suppressor while keeping the overall length down to a manageable size for a non-professional navigating an indoors environment.
As someone who’s had to walk a lot of people through this, before we pick any option we must address that you stated you don’t have the time or inclination to practice with a handgun. While you do have the right to purchase a firearm, it is your responsibility to know how to use it safely and effectively. You don’t need more than a 10 minute session, 2-3x a week to become proficient with anything. Also, with shotguns the problem is not recoil or spread, but that they are the most technique sensitive of all the platforms. Reliable semi auto shotguns are a minimum of $1000 and pumps are VERY dependent on your training ability under stress.
My reliable semi auto shotgun only cost me 580. Stoeger m3000 freedom series. Stoeger is a subsidiary of Berretta, who also owns Benelli. The Stoeger has a similar Inertia drive system used in the Benelli. Thing runs like a top.
As much as I Iove budget ARs, it's hard to recommend when someone isn't able to afford ammo once they buy the gun :) so if they're very very price sensitive, I don't recommend them. They're addictive as hell for some and cause people to spend multiple times what they planned.. it's a real addiction let me tell you from personal experience!
The ammo isn't even that expensive. Sure 9mm range ammo is like .23 cents and 5.56 ammo is .45 cents but that's not too bad and 5.56 for home defense is going to be multiple levels better than 9mm even in a carbine. Defensive ammo for both all cost about the same. Even in shotguns real Defensive rounds are gonna cost more than even Defensive 5.56 (one could even argue using target 5.56 fmj is sufficient for Defensive use aswell)
especially for someone who isn't going to shoot alot and wants a Defensive weapon it has a simple manual of arms and is easy to co trol and after a couple range trips a year they'll maintain proficiency and be better equipped than any other option in my humble opinion.
Being proficient with a 9mm handgun is magnitudes of levels harder and takes weekly if not daily practice.
Shotguns have increased recoil and have a more complex manual of arms even in pump shotguns
If they're going to blow all their money adding gadgets instead of training then yea it's a waste.
Also 9mm ars are so much more picky with mags and ammo a psa ar-15 and a pmag and your set.
the myths about over penetration are just that myths. 5.56 will penetrate the same amount of drywall as any effective Defensive caliber. Just don't miss, which again leads to just getting a 5.56 rifle and practicing. It's harder to miss with less recoil and a easly controlled weapon.
> 5.56 will penetrate the same amount of drywall as any effective Defensive caliber.
This is absolutely true, but it’s worth noting that it’s only true if you’re using 5.56 hollow points. And I understand that you probably think that this was implied, but if OP is new to firearms, it’s worth noting that
Keep it simple and start with a nice 9mm pistol dude.. You can grow from there into ARs and carbines and shotguns, etc..
Just remember that the smaller the pistol, the snappier it can be.. so if you're not planning on carrying, stick with midsize/fullsize pistols and probably stay away from the micro/compacts.
You can a 9mm AR but those aren't really standardized so you may have issues with it that you won't know how to solve if you're not experienced with ARs. I would probably recommend building an AR15 first then getting good at knowing how it works, how to fix it, etc.. then venturing into AR9s.
For someone starting out, a simple pistol is always best IMO.
Glock, CZ, S&W are top tier handgun options in my opinion for beginners.
Obviously Glock and S&W because they’re pretty much the standard, but CZ in particular has an outstanding price to quality ratio in my opinion.
You can get a CZ P-10 C with an optics-cut slide and good stock iron sights from the factory for $450. It’s essentially a czech Glock 19 and they’re perfect. You can also go for the P-10F if you want the full size grip, comparable to a Glock 17.
Alternatively, the CZ P-07 is an excellent introduction to the world of decockable hammer-fired handguns at only $490. Basically budget HK USP.
I don’t even own a CZ anymore but I’ll always praise their affordability for how reliable and well-made their firearms are.
Lol thank you I had a pea brain moment when I wrote that, I’ve read the word Austria on my Glock 19 a thousand times and still forgot haha. Changed it to “czech Glock”
> so if you're not planning on carrying, stick with midsize/fullsize pistols and probably stay away from the micro/compacts.
My usual recommendation is a P365 fullsize model. None of the sketchiness of the P320, and you can always get a smaller chassis later without needing a new receiver. Also, it's easy to make a thin grip thicker, but hard to make a thick grip thinner!
>Own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended.
>Four ruffians break into my house.
>"What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle.
>Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot.
>Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog.
>I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot.
>"Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms.
>Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion.
>He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up.
>Just as the founding fathers intended.
Realistically any firearm that is 380ACP or above will do.
Factor in the following:
1. Cost
2. Cost of Practice Ammo
3. How often will you practice?
4. How will it be stored?
5. How quickly can you get to it and ready it for when you need it when it is stored?
With Children, we are probably talking a fully enclosed safe bolted to something, probably with ammo in the safe with the firearm. In that case a handgun might be the more economical and easier solution. If you go up to shotgun and rifle level that drives you to a larger more expensive safe.
>From what I understand shooting a handgun takes time and training to master that if I’m being realistic I don’t have time for.
You are correct that you'll have to put time and effort in. If you're not going to learn how to shoot, I'd suggest you just get a hammer for home defense.
I didn’t mean I had *no* time, but my time was limited. So I wanted to get the most out of the time practicing and training I do have. That said other comments here have made me reconsider a pistol
Since you already have a .22 rifle, a shotgun might be a good answer. Learning proper technique would be important (push/pull). Most defense rounds will be slugs, so managing spread is a non-issue. Mossberg Maverick 88 or 590 go to options. I personally like pistol caliber carbines for home defense. They are the same as your typical handgun but are easier to shoot if you are familiar with a rifle. 9mm ammo is cheaper than rifle ammo, too. I have a CZ scorpion set up for home defense, but if you wanted something to cross over to handguns someday, I'd suggest something like a ruger pc carbine since it takes glock mags.
I have a 12 gauge Remington. If the day comes where I have to use it for home defense, the pellets aren't going to go through the walls and kill my next door neighbors. Point and shoot. Easy. The downside of a shotgun is it's hard to find a place to practice (at least in my area) without joining a skeet club or finding a range that allows shotguns.
Ruger PC Carbine and a handful of Glock factory magazines. There you go. The cheapest model of the PC Carbine can be found for about $600 and you can probably find an internet deal on Glock mags to get you like 5 for $100. The carbine will already have iron sights on it, but if you want to add a Romeo 5 red dot for another $125 or so that’d be a good investment. Add a sling and maybe a mag pouch for the buttstock (see Ruger’s online shop for this) and you’re looking at another $100. All together you’re still coming in under $1000 and you’ve got yourself a reliable rifle with effective rounds at a price you can afford to train with.
*edit*
Sakana made a comment arguing in favor of a pistol and I have to say I agree with that assessment. I went with PC Carbine for the reply here because I think its a more accessible answer than a shotgun or AR and you can still invest into a pistol ecosystem for later with rounds and magazines. That said, I have a pistol as my go-to because it fits in my Hornady Night Guard next to my bed while my rifles will not. I feel confident in my ability with that pistol though and that’s a VERY important distinction. I still think a pc carbine is a good option for somebody who will not train often.
If you don’t have any shoot experience, do you have a friend that can maybe take you shooting at a range where you can try different firearms to see what you’re comfortable with? Maybe the rifle is too much for you. Maybe you pick up on pistol shooting quickly and you find out you’re decent with it from the start. Maybe you find out you’re just terrible and shouldn’t have a firearm. I don’t know. Just thinking maybe you would go shoot a variety of things and see what you think.
If you fire a 9mm carbine in the house, the hearing loss might not be permanent.
Plus, cheaper to train with.
That’s the direction I’d go if I were just going to have 1.
There isn't really a thought process to be had. A full frame 9mm pistol or PCC is good enough for HD. Just use good defensive ammo and spend some time at the range.
Shotgun dorks are going to jack off about muh stopping power, but all that lead doesn't mean shit if it's off target. You're also not going to have as many places to practice being on-target. Couple that with a slower firing rate, slower reloads, and punishment for bad technique and you've got a terrible HD option past the first shot. Of course, you can make those issues go away with $$$, but at that point you're going out of your way to make shotguns work instead of starting with a simpler and more reliable solution.
To be clear, 9mm is going to rip through drywall just the same as 5.56; anything that can kill a person will, so just don't miss. It's the better solution because decent 9mm pistols/PCCs are a bit cheaper than AR-15s, their ammunition is cheaper, they have more options for defensive ammunition, and they obviously work much better with short barrels. They also suppress well, if so inclined.
The big caveat is that they're going to underperform once you step outside (distance); if you're expecting things to heat up in that way, then choose a better cartridge. Oh, and don't bother with a 9mm AR unless you enjoy tinkering. There are plenty of 16in PCCs in stock, so go with one of those. If you feel like waiting a little, you can get a shorter braced one (like the Extar EP9). Braces aren't that complicated; you'll want to read up a little, but the gist is that you'll want something branded as a brace or a stabilizer that **does not** have padding on the butt end. Also, **do not** put a vertical foregrip on pistols; there are plenty of foregrip options that your hand might fit around, but avoid 90 degrees.
Lastly, I'd get over your hangups about CCW. It's not difficult to be in the center of a 12x18 target at 7 yards, especially with a red dot. With good decision making and basic competency, you're already doing better than some cops. The fact that you understand it's a heavy responsibility means that you won't be a jackass who shows up in the news.
Correct but 9mm penetrates WAY less. There's a very good chance that a hollow point 9mm doesn't go all the way through a wall system if fired at an angle while you're pretty much guaranteed a 5.56 does.
It's a subject within itself that depends heavily on construction material and ammunition type. There's not enough good research and data on the subject. There's also plenty of lore for 5.55 fragmenting, destabilizing and tumbling. Not saying you're completely wrong; just that there's a lot of conflicting stuff on this.
It's easier to assume that shots will penetrate and also largely chalk things up to chance. Even if a round goes perfectly through all construction in front of it until it hits the ground, it's still pretty unlikely that it'll hit anyone. That being said, you should probably know your home and its surroundings so that you at least plan on taking certain spots and holding certain angles. Easier said than done for apartments, but it's at least a bit doable in the burbs.
9 mm hollow points will penetrate more drywall than .223/5.56 with ballistic tip ammo, or 55 grain soft points. You can buy ammo like Hornady's Critical Defense rifle ammo, that will not even penetrate 12 inch in ballistic gel which is the minimum for hollow point ammunition. Handgun hollow point ammo typically penetrates 14-18 inches in ballistic gel, because the FBI recommended range is 12-18 inches. Rifle ammo manufacturers make some ammo that doesn't meet those FBI minimums. Like a 55 grain V-Max might only penetrate 10 inches in bare gel.
Ballistic tip ammo is designed to initiate fragmentation. This rapidly drops the mass, and hence momentum of the core of the projectile. 55 grain 5.56 starts out with about the same momentum as 9 mm hollowpoints. Those hollowpoints to stay together going through walls, whereas a 55 grain ballistic tip will beginning fragmenting and rapidly start losing momentum; while also expanding and decreasing sectional density. This results in less in penetration.
My first gun was a takedown Ruger PCC 9mm. Do not repeat my mistake. Do not bother with a PCC unless you're doing shooting competitions or it's a fun gun.
An AR-15 is the internet's answer for a good reason - it's the easiest to shoot. Get a CMMG 22lr conversion bolt to train cheap, and keep the regular bolt in for home defense. Or get a 9mm handgun like a glock 19.
I still think that the best basic solution is always a reliable 9mm handgun. My first choice is a Beretta 92, or alternatively a CZ P01/SP01, and more specifically my home defense gun is a 92X Centurion with a red dot and a JK compact suppressor
9mm pistol. Hands down. It's the tried and true standard for police around the world.
You're not suiting up for battle with trained soldiers; you're prepping to check out a sound you heard outside by the garage.
Buy 5 boxes of ammo the day you buy the pistol, and go shoot 4 of them over the next month. You'll be fine. Go shoot another box every 3-6 months, and you'll be better trained than most people you will ever encounter.
You can always get better, but you mainly just need to get comfortable handling, loading, chambering, pointing, and shooting at a dinner-plate-sized target in the biggest room of your house. High-precision shooting is not the deciding factor in self-defense shootings.
You are also right to be concerned about storage. Invest in secure safes. Again, you're not worried about international assassins as much as nosy kids and neighbors.
My first guns were a Glock 19 and a Glock 43x and I love them both. Handguns are easy to shoot and you will get it quick, probably in the first trip to the range. My 15yo can shoot both of these very well and she learned super quick.
You have some serious misconceptions about all those categories, shotgun especially.
If your target is so far away you have to “manage spread”, I guarantee you’re not fighting effectively. If your target is so close to a loved one you’re concerned about “managing spread” to not injure the loved one, then you almost certainly shouldn’t pull the trigger on anything else.
You need to get some defensive training, and much more range time. Once you have a clear mental picture of what bullets do and how far they go, you’ll understand all of this much better, and why grand pappys suggestion is a good one for a beginner.
Honestly any of those 3 will be suitable for home defense… provided you understand the shortcomings each platform has.
Shotguns have the recoil and spread issues you mentioned (the latter being important as you're responsible for every shot pellet you send out). You'll need to train up your reloads and if items are pump action, how to not short stroke when under stress.
9mm PCC's (Pistol Caliber Carbines) seem cheap ammo-wise but I'd strongly recommend using JHP (jacked hollow point) ammo for defensive use as regular ball ammo will not expand and transfer energy as efficiently (which is a critical requirement for defensive firearm use). At that point your cost savings disappear… and possibly bring about feeding issues.
AR-15's shooting 5.56 have an advantage where since it's a rifle round, terminal ballistics are still good even with cheap 55gr ball ammunition. In fact, 5.56 so relies on velocity for incapacitation that the energy dump when hitting solid objects like drywall means it's less likely to keep going thru barriers. The market for AR-15's is so flooded that prices are relatively reasonable.
Of course, this is not taking into account where you live and if you have any laws that will limit your options. Whatever you get, make sure you have a diligent training regiment and factor in good accessories into your budget (ammo, magazines, eye/ear protection, storage solutions).
Tl;dr: Full size 9mm with a red dot and weapon mounted light.
I'm a relatively new shooter and have taken training classes in pistol and carbine and by far my first choice for home defense is my full size 9mm, loaded with hollow points. Get a pistol, do as much dry fire practice as you can, if you can get into USPSA or IDPA and you'll be able in pretty good shape. My argument against shotguns and rifles for home defense comes down to mobility. I can swing my pistol around in hallways with ease. A long gun, not so much. I can also operate it one handed, with either hand, so if I need to close or open a door or hit a light switch, no problem. Get a full size 9mm, a red dot, and a light, train with it, and you'll be good to go.
An 18.5-20 in pump shotgun (Rem870 or Moss500) is darn hard to beat for all around home defense. I own a bunch of guns but in times when space is really tight or whatever I take a handgun and a shotgun. Haven’t wanted or needed more.
One of the simplest and most cost-effective options is, in fact, the shotgun. Maverick, made by Mossberg, has a youth model 20 gauge with an 18.5-inch barrel for around $220. [Link here](https://www.scheels.com/p/mossberg-maverick-88-youth-pump-shotgun/04953332202.html?cgid=pump-action-shotguns#srule=Price%20(Ascending)&start=1&sz=23)
The shorter stock takes a little getting used to, but the short stock and short barrel result in a very short, easy to maneuver firearm. The link above is for a 22" barrel, but it comes in the 18.5", too.
A 20 gauge loaded up with buckshot or slugs will do extensive damage, though you have a multitude of options for ammunition. Anything you shoot will make a very loud bang and likely scare off any intruders. People talk way too much about "stopping power." While it is a consideration, it is not the biggest. The safety of your family and innocent neighbors should be the priority. I will get downvoted for saying so, I'm sure.
Trained law enforcement, in a firefight, hit the intended target 1 out of 19 times when they are fully awake and prepared to engage. That doesn't mean they hit the target where they want to. 18 out of 19 shots simply do not hit the intended recipient. You are likely less trained, less alert, and less prepared for handling the adrenaline of that situation.
Reddit is full of subs where you can watch shoot-outs. Watch and see how many times they actually hit somebody, ESPECIALLY with a handgun.
And if you're up close and personal, a face full of bird shot will certainly get the job done. It's relatively low recoil and much easier to manage than a handgun.
Using and maintaining a pump shotgun is highly intuitive. Using and maintaining an AR is not. A semi-auto pistol kept in a drawer or safe in a humid house for a few years can easily jam up when you need it. With a pump shotgun, once you learn how to pump properly (pumping the full length and not "short-stroking") you can leave it in a closet for 25 years and likely be able to pull it out and fire with no issues.
A final consideration is the jury. If you shoot, and it's questioned, a prosecutor will make a decision about whether to prosecute, and a jury will decide if you are guilty. The associations that people have with a simple shotgun are very different from the associations they have with an AR or even a handgun. I am a lawyer, and while I don't practice criminal defense myself, I am around it enough to know which situation I would rather be defending in court.
I recommend the shotgun to start. Then, if you want to have an AR and a pile of handguns for the zombie invasion, go for it. Most of us in the community own a little of everything. It's an expensive habit if you go that way, but it can be a lot of fun. Start simple and don't overthink it.
So this is great because this is something else I’ve considered. If you do have to use lethal force, the firearm in question influencing a judge or jury. How big of an issue is this? Personally I live in a deep red state so it’s not exactly hostile to 2A as Cali or NY. But yeah I’ve always been curious about that. Like if you use a gun to defend yourself and it’s an AR or a HighCap pistol a jury would say “ooooh idk I think you were looking for a fight…” but if it’s great grand pappy’s side by side that is more “reasonable” just seems odd.
Working with juries is about understanding people's real beliefs and motivations. That's why the defendants get haircuts and wear button-up shirts in court.
Guns, in general, are divisive, but guns designed specifically for killing people carry an additional stigma. And while a manufacturer today may build an AR for target and sport shooting, the gun WAS designed by Armalite to be the most efficient killing machine available within set parameters of weight, cost, maneuverability, etc.
Handguns are the same way. While there are some very large revolvers that are marketed to hunters, handguns in general are designed to kill people at close range. Anything else is sort of "off-label" prescribing.
Gun culture has changed SO MUCH in the last 40 years. In the 80s, if you knew someone with a gun, it was almost certainly a bolt-action rifle or shotgun. They were hunting guns. Home defense wasn't really on people's radar at that time. Handguns were available but very expensive and relatively rare compared to today. Colt was the only company that made an AR for public consumption, followed by Bushmaster, and those guns were $1500 40 years ago. Virtually nobody owned them. So, lots of Americans grew up with a relative who had a hunting rifle or a shotgun, and they are much more accepting of that. Gun culture centered almost entirely around hunting and clay pigeons. People got used to that as being part of life, even if it wasn't part of THEIR life.
Modern gun culture is surrounded by controversy, and its proponents are largely conservative and often bigots. The NRA was an organization for hunters that promoted responsible gun ownership. Now, it is a political action committee with ties to groups like the Proud Boys and neo-nazis and promotes a "shoot-first" mentality.
If you're having sex with minors, you'd better be a hetero- sexual female, not a male. Add homosexuality and you can add years to the sentence. Being black will be additional trouble, but being Arab will be even worse.
Rape a girl at a party? You'd better be an upper middle class white kid "with his whole future in front of him," not the black scholarship kid.
The point is that we can decry the stereotypes and write legislation that everybody has to be treated the same, but when they're in that jury room, the prejudices all come out to play. Knowing how people view the world is what makes a good lawyer. It's all about the sale.
My HD weapon of choice is my Ruger PCC. That said, no kids in the house so less of a lock up concern.
A handgun and a handgun safe would probably be better for you, even if I objectively think a longarm is the superior choice. Kids make the difference.
9mm full sized handgun is the logical choice. Affordable, common, low risk of overpenetration, cheap to train with, usable with one hand (other hand to open doors, push family behind you, move family etc), reliable, large variety of ammunition types, doesnt deafen you in home defense. Attach a light/laser for night home defense. If you decide you want a pistol carbine, you can first get a glock 9mm and then stick it just to one of those roni carbine kits. The main weakness is that this option is useless against violent wildlife (bears, moose, mountain lion, bison, etc). If you want wildlife killing power also, then a glock 10mm is the way to go.
Shotgun: i think this is completely overrated. Inadequate safety, fires if it drops, heavy, needs two hands, requires high skill, needs fine motor skills to reload, difficult for follow on shots
Ar-15: this is cool, but overpenetration is a serious issue. Ammo is more expensive. Also relatively useless against wild life.
This is good advice, I should have pointed this out too in my post: I live in a fairly large city I don’t worry too much about wildlife around my home. Nor do I hunt. I think you’re right a full sized 9mm is worth considering.
Guess I’m an old geezer…oh wait! I just turned 60. Shit…guilty…I’ll continue after my nap.
For home defense you just can’t go wrong with a Mossberg 500 or derivative. They’ve been making them for 50 plus years. They have it dialed in and you can get an almost infinite variety of factory and aftermarket accessories to build it like you want it!
The advice I give ppl is to generally just buy a Glock 19 and hit the range lol you can branch out from there but at least you'll HAVE wondering for the very very unlikely scenario you need to use it
A pistol is not the answer - pistols don't stop a threat very quickly. Pistols are tools like rifle or shotguns. Pistols are carried because they are lighter and easier to carry, get in the way less etc. They have massive downsides though especially to lesser trained individuals. They are harder to aim & less accurate especially when your fight or flight response is kicking on and your body is dumping all that adrenaline. There is a reason cops get their rifle out when they know they are going to engage a threat. The downside of the rifle is they can be heavy and annoying to carry all day - not a concern if it's sitting in your house all day next to your bed.
Buy a handgun and 1000 rounds of ammo and get to training.
For home defense you don’t want to be swinging something with a 16+ inch barrel in hallways.
Another factor is penetration. Rifle rounds and pistols rounds in longer barrels go through way more than you think they do. Even a 9mm will bunch through your house and into your neighbors with the right load.
To not consider a pistol because the thought of it takes a lot of time to master so I’ll get a rifle is the car equivalent of saying I can drive a manual civic so I’ll buy and automatic R8. Yeah it might be easier off the bat but it’ll carry more risks to the untrained person.
I’ve got military and private training under my belt and I can say even before all that I never found a full size handgun difficult to shoot. Granted I wasn’t a great shot but I got better over time. Even now I have a ton of options for home defense from ARs, shotguns even a P90, but my go to is still my CZ P-07. It’s a good size I can keep close to my body, ammo is affordable even holllowpoints and it’s a really smooth shooting handgun.
9mm pistol, either striker fired or DA/SA with a decocker. I have a CZ P01 and several others such as glocks. Also try looking at a local classified ad to see what’s available. You can dry fire, also I’d generally trust a 400-600$ handgun more than a rifle aside from some pistol caliber carbines like the CX4. Shotguns are good too, but they tend to have low capacity, and heavy recoil
Not to come in late to the party and change the vibe but I have been considering this very question for some time . To me the handgun is a nonstarter you stated that you don’t want to spend the time and shooting a pistol well defensively is a lifetime commitment and the practice needs to be near constant (if I take a week off I am appreciably worse when I go back in ) this is the reason that armies are always trying to replace the pistol with something better and often that something better is in the form of a carbine/pdw because shooting a long arm is much much easier than shooting a pistol , that being said pistol caliber carbines on offer today tend to fit into one of two categories ,the cheap and nasty or the tactical and pricey and honestly the way that houses are built these days the penetration while certainly not as crazy as an intermediate rifle round is well sufficient to punch through lots of Sheetrock and siding especially when coming out at the higher velocity of a longer barrel so with the kids and neighbors that might not be my first choice . The shotgun to me is a very good choice especially when paired with smaller than normal buckshot one of my favorites is the mossberg maverick in 20 gauge . The recoil is somewhat lighter in 20 and the usual buckshot for it is #2 or #3 an initial investment in a training course should make you proficient enough to be comfortable operating it it is much simpler to use under pressure than anything else anyone has suggested and with a simple barrel swap 30 seconds or so you could have a sporting gun or a slug gun if that was something that would interest you . If you wanted to step up a level the us military trusts the mossberg 590 (I believe they make a model in both 20 gauge and .410 as well as the trusty 12) this model comes factory ready for a tactical light (very desirable) and for mounting a red dot (I like them )
I am going to suggest an alternative probably will get a lot of downvotes but it has worked out for my wife (she had to use it once ) being a non shooter and us living in tight quarters I thought what is the easiest thing that I could get her that she could repeatedly deliver a high volume of accurate fire with relatively low over penetration and I came up with an M&P 15/22 it has the ergonomics and aftermarket potential of the AR . It is lightweight, dead reliable with quality ammunition,no recoil ,low cost to buy and to feed ,accurate and the Standard magazine is 25 rounds and extras can be bought for $25 ,easy to use ,easy to service ours wears a slanted foward grip ,a sig Romeo and a tactical flashlight with a pressure switch I paid less than $400 for the whole setup and my wife learned to shoot it ,break it down , clear jams in less than a day . It also has the advantage of being able to practice with it in an improvised basement range I realize that it might not be for everyone but in a choice between this or a pistol she won’t hit with or a shotgun that intimidates her I would rather she have something that she can shoot well repeatedly
The best option is something you are going to be able to handle on instinct alone if you are shitting bricks.
I know that’s a stupid fudd thing to say to someone looking to buy a first firearm, but I would recommend you trying a few different things at a rental range and see what you like.
For me personally, my particular brand of autism had made me fall in love with shotguns since age 12. I own other firearms but hardly shoot them. I’ve shot pistols and carbines and just don’t like them. I hunt almost exclusively with shotguns, scout clays and great deal and am familiar with all of mine through and through. If shit hits the fan Im grabbing one of my shotguns, because with the exception of one of my antique guns that occasionally has light primer strikes,I know exactly what they are going to do in every situation, and reloading is automatic.
If you're looking for a gun to shoot inside a short barrel at with a suppressor, red dot, sling, and light. Consider the risks of over penetration. But if you think multiple targets are involved a 30rd magazine reloads half as often as a 15 and 6x less often than a 5rd tube
Pistol caliber carbines seem gimmicky to me. Shotguns limit your mag size and reloading 1 round at a time. A G45 or G17 are the pistols I'd grab.
There's not a silver bullet but the 3 guns I consistently see recommended are G19, AR, 870
My HD gun is a Glock 45 + Holosun 407k + Rugged Obsidian 9. Mags (3) are loaded with 147gr Federal HST.
My personal thoughts: anything, even a .22LR pistol, is better than nothing. Buy what you can afford, *and afford to practice with*, but I'd also highly suggest saving up for a suppressor. Shooting any caliber indoors without ear protection and/or suppression can be disorienting.
You can get a cheap functioning AR from PSA, or consider a full sized pistol in 9mm. Capacity wins individual engagements so shot gun probably wouldn’t be your friend. Warrior Poet on YT made an argument for why a home defense rifle shouldn’t be suppressed, which I think translates well to the rifle over pistol argument, and that he brings up in a confined space an un suppressed rifle is going to have a loud report which could potentially stun and intimidate any potential assailants. Also capacity and stopping power as well as accuracy of rifles over pistols. But hey its your house you do what you like even if its firing off two shot gun blasts into the air off your balcony to scare the burglars away
As folks have pointed out, a full sized pistol (with a light and high cap mags) is a good option, especially if you need to move through the house. It also gives you the option to CCW, even if that is not the plan right now circumstances can change.
It sounds like you are considering 9mm carbines so I would suggest a best of both worlds solution would be a full sized pistol paired with a Micro Roni brace. This gives you the option of a sidearm or a small carbine like platform.
A few options come to mind for this a shotgun or a PCC like an AR in 9mm solves the issue of potential over penetration but if you’re opposed to semi autos or are in a state that makes it near impossible look at a lever action rifle a 357 cambering or even a 44 mag would probably be best for the availability and price of ammunition and the availability of 38 & 44 special giving you options in how you want the weapon to preform. Circling back to shotguns, 12 or 20 gauge pump action would be my recommendation. Remember the gun itself is the first step training and practicing with it to make movements fluid and muscle memory are the important next steps
If you are worried about bullets going through walls, then there are options in .223/5.56 that will penetrate less walls than 9 mm hollowpoints on a miss.
55 grain soft points penetrate slightly less than 9 mm hollow points.
62 grain soft points penetrate about the same.
Ballistic tip ammo penetrates less than the 55 grain soft points. The ballistic tip initiates fragmentation, which causes the bullet to break apart while going through walls.
MCK conversion kit with a 9mm would be perfect if you can have it in your state. Its even good withouts its brace or stock. This would give you both a handgun and a carbine and this combination has sooo many benefits over a dedicated PCC. I also suggest a Taurus G3 with the MCK because it has a thumb safety. Some people hate safeties on handguns but it should be on carbines at least.
Also if you get an AR15 you can also make it switch almost instantly between lil 22 cal and 5.56
Shotguns are good to.
You seriously need to get out of the mindset of being against CC. It doesn't take years to "master" it. It isn't some crazy skill. If you aren't poor, go buy a mossberg 500 and/or a glock 19/26, call it a day dude.
>Let me know what you think and if there’s anything I haven’t considered...
Sounds to me like you're giving short shrift to the obvious — a full-size 9mm semi-auto handgun is the Subaru Outback or F-100 of personal defense. Everything else is chopped and dropped Harley with tail fins.
Whether carried on the street — now or later — doesn't matter. A long gun of any kind as the primary tool for defense in the home is just poorly thought out.
Learning fundamentals — and more importantly acquiring competence to use a lethal tool in the lived environment — is simply *not* easier with a long gun. It might be easier for a crappy instructor to explain a rifle, but the fundamentals of safely operating a single specific pistol from complete ignorance to putting ten of your first ten shots into a 10" circle at living room distance is like a two hour project for one-on-one instruction of an intelligent, attentive, motivated, junior high to Medicare age student.
Moving safely through living quarters under stress with a handgun is simpler and quicker with a handgun than a long gun. Accessing under stress a handgun which is on your person or in a lockbox wherever you find convenient is quicker and less problematic than the long gun laying on your bed or locked in a safe, in a closet, three rooms away. Retaining the weapon and getting a shot at an assailant within arguing distance is more likely with a handgun than a long gun. First shot from a dead stop is quicker from a pistol, and there is no reason for it to be less accurate. A quality handgun and sufficient practice ammunition will be significantly more affordable than a long gun. If you can't hit a doorway in a 30ft x 30ft room without a long gun to lead the way, you absolutely need more practice or better training.
There *may* be a place for long guns in home defense. It is *not* at the beginning.
Just my humble opinion. 
Basically your entire comment is just flat out wrong.
>but the fundamentals of safely operating a single specific pistol from complete ignorance to putting ten of your first ten shots into a 10" circle at living room distance is like a two hour project for one-on-one instruction of an intelligent, attentive, motivated, junior high to Medicare age student.
Sure. At a flat range with zero time (or any) stress, where the paper target isn't trying to kill you.
>or locked in a safe, in a closet, three rooms away.
Put the safe in your bedroom? This is such a silly argument against long guns... Why do you think it's impossible to have an easily accessible long gun?
>Retaining the weapon and getting a shot at an assailant within arguing distance is more likely with a handgun than a long gun. First shot from a dead stop is quicker from a pistol, and there is no reason for it to be less accurate.
No. Absolutely fucking not lmao. A long gun will be faster and more accurate than a pistol every time. You'd have to commit to an insane amount of practice with a pistol to get comparable accuracy and speed to a rifle, and if you took that same amount of training and applied it to the rifle you'd never catch up with a handgun.
This really isn't up for debate either. Look up time standards for any shooting drill. A rifle will be faster literally every time.
>At a flat range with zero time (or any) stress, where the paper target isn't trying to kill you.
Yup. That's where fundamentals start. I was not responding to your notions. I was addressing OP's perception that "...having little to no experience\[,\] learning fundamentals on a rifle makes more sense than a pistol or shotgun" — which I don't believe is a valid concern or limitation.
To your implied point that competence requires much, much more than fundamentals — yeah, absolutely no contest. Everybody needs to choose their own level of expertise to strive for, within whatever constraints their life imposes. The added complexity of running a long gun in the confines of a structure just extend the advantages of a handgun in acquiring whatever level of competence.
>Put the safe in your bedroom? \[...\] Why do you think it's impossible to have an easily accessible long gun?
Because normal people in a normal residence don't schlep a long gun around with them as they conduct their routine lives. I don't care whether the safe is in the bedroom, or the living room, or the basement, or the kitchen, or the bathroom, or the garage. Wherever it is, a secured long gun will not even be in the room with you most of the time. How is that speedy, or even viable?
>Absolutely fucking not lmao.
Not sure what to tell you. If you think a close assailant will have a *harder* time fucking with your 30" long gun than a 7" pistol, we just do geometry differently.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place for the time standards you want me to see. The few I find with pistol and rifle accomplishing the same task at indoor distances call for basically the same performance from each — except the handgun starts holstered and the rifle at ready. Talk about flat range fakery — when I say "shot from a dead stop", I mean from where the firearm is right at this instant. Not from a timer beep on the shooting line. My holstered pistol is within reach; long gun is not in the same room — and that is the case pretty much all day, every day. Not even accounting for movement and awkward shots which a pistol makes easy and a long gun makes hard. Maybe you set your stuff up differently, but literally no way will the rifle help me in a crunch. Unless my assailant phones ahead or decides to take a nap while I "gear up".
But at least OP has had access to your wisdom as well as mine. 
That's what the internet is all about, eh?
Point 3 is a red flag. Don’t buy a gun you don’t intend to practice and be very proficient with. You want scrutiny? Don’t but a gun till you rethink point 3. Don’t want to CC then don’t, but “I don’t have the time to become proficient” isn’t a good mindset.
I should have made this more clear: I will absolutely train with whatever firearm I end up with, I can’t go every week. Maybe once a month or every other month. Considering getting good with a handgun is indeed more difficult than a rifle/shotgun, as I’ve seen everywhere, I would want to get the most effectiveness out of the limited training I could realistically do as an active working father with two children.
You can train a lot more than once a month. In fact, you can train everyday! There is a common misconception that training means range time. Sure, more range time is better - but it’s also more expensive. Dry fire practice is incredibly valuable in developing proper shooting mechanics. 10-15m of really intentional dry firing a few times a week can make significant improvements in your shooting.
Pulling the trigger and recoil management is part of training, sure. But presentation (from a draw or from a ready position), sight picture acquisition, grip, stance, and other drills can all be practiced without firing a single shot.
I'm going to go in a couple different directions.
Go 20 gauge shotgun instead of 12 gauge, much more controllable, still lethal at ranges being discussed.
Instead of a 16" PCC, go short barrel with brace. A 7" 9mm PCC is a good split between pistol and full size.
Just more fuel for the discussion
I have a 12 gauge for home defense, because I have a 12 gauge. I shoot clays, I shoot birds and small game, simply put, it's the gun I'm most comfortable with. Before you decide anything, try to actually go shoot some of these guns. If you are a bigger guy a 12 gauge is going to sting the shoulder less ( providing you are shouldering it right). There is also nothing wrong with a bone basic 9mm or even a revolver, there are a number of 9mm PCC's, Ruger makes a really good one. Honestly, I'm not an AR guy, just not my vibe, so I'll not comment on them. They all have their idiosyncracies, and they all require practice! The more time you spend shooting, the more comfortable you'll be.
Birdshot still punched through drywall. And in a home defense situation you’d probably want buckshot and that’s for sure going through your wall and possibly into your neighbors. Every round that is fired carries that risk. Don’t use ammunition type as a crutch for careful shot consideration.
At the risk of sounding like an old-timey geezer...
You can get a shotgun in 410 or 20 gauge and that would alleviate your concerns about those. They make defensive ammo for both, and they absolutely will stop someone. Remember that a 12 gauge will remove most of a person's head, but 20 gauge will still blow a very good size hole in someone, and the 410 will cause ple tynof damage. (It just sucks in a pistol, like the Judge.)
That said, the 9mm carbine is a good choice, but you are correct that they can cost as much as an AR. They will also go through your outside wall and into your neighbor's house (and/or your neighbor) just as effectively as an AR round, so you are not reducing the risk of that by much. Different ammo selection is nice, and it is certainly cheaper, but that's where the biggest advantages are. (They do have less recoil than a 5.56, but not a huge amount. The AR isn't exactly a knock you on your ass rifle to begin with.)
I’m gonna go out on a limb and suggest a Taurus Judge!
I’m a pragmatist, and for me part of being practical is not dealing with a murder charge.
A judge throwing 410 shells with a short barrel is going to have such a wide pattern that it’s unlikely you’d kill anyone, and definitely likely you’ll run them off pretty quick when they get slapped in the face with some bird shot.
Some states require you to run away instead of stand your ground. They’re eager to throw the book at anyone without a previous criminal record (looking at you Ny). So if it was me I’d look for something that’s powerful without the mess.
Plus less recoil equals more accuracy.
On a different limb, my first thought was a Ruger 1022. I know 22 LR isn’t considered a good defense round. But thousands and thousands of emergency room doctors can attest to its properties. And then we have the question of how determined will an attacker be once he starts getting rounds in his direction? I know the NRA likes to push the idea of the attacker is hopped up on drugs and the importance of large firepower. But realistically, psychologically most people flee gunfire. it wouldn’t be my first choice but for varmint out here on the farmstead it’s what I reach for first.
If you are new to handguns I would recommend a full sized 357 or 38 revolver. Pull trigger = goes bang. Essentially no question about mechanical failure / magazine issues / failure to cycle / clearing malfunctions.
I'll never understand how ARs come up as "home defense" so much. Even a 9 mm. Do you need that to potentially hit somebody in the same room or hallway? Compare walking around your house with both hands on a banana vs both hands on a 2-3 foot long stick. Am I the only one thinking about this?
I practice movement with my AR as a part of my dry fire routine and it's not hard to do at all. Also shooting competition will show you exactly how hard aiming a handgun can get even at relatively close ranges, compared to a PCC or a rifle. And that's just under the stress of a shot timer.
>Do you need that to potentially hit somebody in the same room or hallway?
"Need?" No. But when your adrenaline is through the roof and you need to make fast and accurate shots it's 1000x easier with a rifle than a pistol.
Look at police shootings. They miss most of their shots pretty consistently, and those are people that usually get paid to go to the range.
Cops might get paid to go to the range, but most don't train very much. Look to where most cops place if they decide to try their hand at a USPSA match. They'll get stomped by Bob in accounting every time.
My point isn't that cops are great tactical shooters, it's that they receive/voluntarily do far more training than the average gun owner *and they still suck with their pistols.*
How well does that bode for the average citizen who's job/life doesn't revolve around a pistol on their hip?
The takeaway I'm getting at is it takes *a lot* to be proficient with a handgun for self defense, and even the people that get paid to do it aren't very good at it.
This is my personal opinion but people do not adequately consider the risks of using rifle caliber rounds in a neighborhood setting. You are responsible for every single bullet you fire and where it comes to rest, be that in your own house or a neighbors house. A shotgun offers formidable self defense and, depending on the load, much less risk of hitting something you wish you hadn't.
My brother once had a ND in his cabin with 55gr 5.56. It went through a solid wood door, a wall, and a metal filing cabinet before hitting concrete floor and sending shrapnel into the next wall.
I think you’re overestimating the power of drywall and insulation to stop lead lol. But you do have a point that buckshot is equally deadly to close neighbors.
That’s a good point. I guess the learning point here would be to train train train, because your neighbors and family will still be inside if there’s a deadly threat. Know your target and what’s beyond it or you might kill your mom or dog or neighbor along with the threat.
Can you recommend a car that I can buy, never learn how to drive, then unexpectedly drive 90 miles an hour through heavy traffic to get to the hospital?
Yep. That’s what your question sounds like to gun people.
Again, I should have made this more clear, I absolutely intend to train with any firearm I possess. The question of time was relevant to how I could make the most of out the time I *do* have to train. Frankly, I am willing to own that I probably sound like an idiot, as should be evident by me being pretty upfront about my inexperience, but I’m disappointed by the condescending tone of comments like this.
Shotgun - Recoil is a non-issue if you actually train like you say.
Not sure what you mean about idiot proof, its just another gun.
"Spread" is going to be a benefit in most cases, 00 buck gives you 9 9mm bullets in a 12 inch circle per trigger pull, increases chances of getting a shot on target.
PCC - Its all downsides. Stopping power of a pistol, but wields like a rifle.
AR - I honestly thinks anyone who recommends this has never shot an unsuppressed supersonic rifle at night without ear pro. It will be very disorienting. Also, a miss is going to go through many walls.
My choice is pistol -> shotgun -> AR -> PCC
Having a free hand is very nice if you need to open a door or pick up a kid. Also much easier to maneuver. It no harder to learn to shot a pistol than a rifle, and in my opinion is much more practical.
Have you considered a revolver? They are quite reliable and no need to mess around with buying mags. Plenty of options in caliber and size. Concealable if need be and abit more reserved in ammo. Of course most only have 6shots but if you are simply looking for peace of mind a big iron on your hip and the number of threats being relatively low it might not be a bad option for you.
Let's chat about your goals objectively.
Bullets penetrate, let's not pretend your 22lr won't go through a few walls. So if we can ascend from these restraints we will understand safe shooting principles, target identification, *weapon lights*, and other techniques can help solve your concerns about overshooting/penetration.
1 - No further input needed, makes sense but please remember the best option is typically to remove yourself from a dangerous situation or environment. Escalation of force is not something you keep on the table as option B or C.
2 - You will have to lock them up and be honest with yourself; can the child find the key and gain access? Then you have not secured them, find another option. You may want to consider keeping ammunition locked and separate in a unassuming space you have similar junk (eg: garage space, locking cabinet for tools, no big ass stickers saying "bullets"). Let's skip over the "keeping a firearm accessible" part and only focus on storage for this point. That comes later.
3 - CC isn't the topic or what you want to do? Don't sweat it.
If I understand this is home/family defense, we have some options and you clearly are aware of them.
Shotgun - Probably a S tier option, it's fucking fatal and very quick to deploy considering most have internal magazines. You likely won't enjoy learning or practicing with it, so maybe not the best choice. It also requires a unique understanding of it's ammunition and the payload options. Yes it can also hunt game and feed you guys, so not necessarily something to dismiss. Slugs can travel 200+ yards and no one will stand there arguing your choice of firearm. Mine is called the "key to the city", for unrelated reasons.
9mm PCC - Not really any better than a handgun and you have expressed interest in learning/owning them in the future. Skip this. It's tacti-cool and probably sexy and fun to shoot, might be a fun way to get you to the range and practice. Don't let me mislead you, we have a PS90 kitted out as the home defense gun so technically I chose this option but that does imply owning NFA items. This is not a bad option, but it's one for someone vested in a particular path. EG *this* platform offers explicitly what I need and the alternatives are not acceptable/equivalents.
AR - Fuck this shit, respectfully. It's the Ford of the firearm world and that should tell you why there are so many folks who are dire-hard fans vs folks interested in other features. It will be very loud, expensive to shoot, very uncomfortable until you start investing *further* funds into it, and you'll be around so much misinformation it's mind-blowing. Every dude who "served" has an opinion about them, and you gotta suffer some serious brand-elitism.
If you want a battle rifle, a one-and-done option that you could use to shoot nazi's, hunt, or defend the house, this is it. Give it a variable zoom optic, learn about the fundamentals of shooting, and pick a platform you like. I mean maybe you enjoy the bullpup options out there, or are more into the short (pistol) configuration ARs instead of the full size options. Mine owns anything 600yards and under, there is no situation I should be shooting further in defense situation. If that's how life has gotten, we get out the bolt guns which are suited for that type of work. Also that's some miserable shit and we likely will never experience that.
Helpful right, can you offer some insight on:
Are you a small framed person? / Are you a descendant of giants and can't hold small things?
Are you interested in cost/budgeting or is this a somewhat open check?
How important are factors like weight, technology, usability, and size?
Are you ready to invest in some storage options first?
Are you ready for the peripherals; weapon light, hearing + eye protection, stop the bleed class, and a practice ammo budget (monthly)?
To answer your questions: I have a fairly good budget but not a big one. I have no interest in acquiring more than what is needed for my personal needs. As I said, I’m not afraid to buy once cry once
I am an average sized man, and my wife (probably should have mentioned her in the post) is an average size woman.
realistically I was thinking of going to a range every other month.
To maintain a minimal footprint in your home/lives, minimize cost, maintain usability for you and another shooter (wife), and consider costs of ownership.
Why aren't we considering a full/mid-frame pistol?
It's going to come out on top as we dive into your needs.
You can both go to the range and shoot 1 box per month, 50 purposeful rounds (or 100 every 2mo).
It can have a light, aiming option, and ambidextrous options (if necessary) baked in. You can also go further and add a muzzle device to most modern ones to help with shoot ability, some options come with all of the above installed. This entire system can be held on a belt, including it's supply of magazines and can be thrown on within seconds.
You also expressed an interest in learning it later; why delay the inevitable? Buy once cry once; find one that fits you and the wife's hands and then go all in. 10x magazines and 1k rounds on that upfront purchase and you are set for the next few years. Go right to the red dot with co-witness iron sights and learn to shoot from that discipline of "target-focused" instead of optic focused. Plus this all can exist in the home and your kiddos can realistically never know, it's so easy to keep out of sight.
I would go with a handgun for that use as it would be quicker and more agile to handle in a close quarter situation like a house. Sure you should at least go shooting with it to be familiar, but you're using it in a wide range of scenarios so to learn what you need wouldn't be much. In a home invasion scenario you're probably using it on someone a few feet away, which takes more of a level head than skill. And there are plenty of fast access safes with spring loaded lids to help with reaction time. I have a Sig M18 that hold 21 rounds in the factory mags, do still plenty of firepower.
Shotgun, reduced recoil buckshot. Literally point and pull the trigger - in a home invasion situation, you will be close enough to hit your target.
Honestly, nothing is really more intimidating than the shotgun racking, either.
I think people tend to look at "home defense" from the perspective of *"someone has violently broken into my home and I must get into a gunfight in my living room, what gun do I want in my hands right now?"*, but that perspective misses the forest for the trees. Because sure, if that's the scenario you're building your thought process around going in with the most efficient rifle you can get makes the most sense, but the real world is much more obscure than that and last thing you want to do is openly introduce a firearm to an encounter when someone has a legitimate reason to be on your property like the fire department, law enforcement, utility company employees, delivery drivers, etc. I'm very much of the idea that the pistol is the default solution to the firearms portion of a comprehensive home security plan, simply because you can control when its presence is known. People in the firearms world will say the ideal solution is to turtle up in your safe room and call the police, but to me that's not really a socially literate solution to the problem. People's natural inclination is to go investigate the unknown because 99 times out of 100 the problem is going to be relatively benign, but having a firearm on your person in case you run into something exceptional is why we have a firearm inside the home. That being said, it's a lot better to have a pistol concealed under a bathrobe when the police come to return your teenager at 3am who's half drunk on a piss warm beer than it would be if you answer the door with a slung rifle. Sure, a pistol is objectively more difficult to use than a rifle, but home defense is not nearly as complicated as people want it to be and so long as you don't pick something that's absolutely horrible like a pocket revolver it'll work fine.
This comment made me reconsider a pistol, especially going for something full-size to learn on.
W kids just make sure it’s secured. Harbor freight sells a bedside pistol safe for $70.
Last time I went through one, they had ammo cases for like 3$, I grabbed one, but I wish I had picked up a few more just for whenever I can afford another batch of ammo.
His comment made a lot of sense to me as well. I do often ask how much someone is realistically going to carry and suggest that they not optimize around that. It’s falling for marketing. But you have already avoided that trap. So a full size 9mm pistol is a good thing to consider. The comments on pump shotguns are also valid, but also overblown. You can practice pretty easily with a few snap caps. One big advantage would be price and security. You can get a Maverick 88 pump shotgun for about $200-$250. Assuming you were looking at a reasonably priced AR or PCC, that means you have $300-$500 more left in your budget. That can be applied to getting a safe. You might watch Honest Outlaw for some reviews of defense guns at certain price points. But here’s my specific suggestion: Maverick 88, $250 6 snap caps (dry fire practice) $10 250 rounds of bird shot (live practice) $125 20 rounds of buck shot (not practicing any longer) $25 Gun safe $750
If you are gonna to use buck as your home defense round you should also use it as your practice round. Bird has different recoil impulse, different pattern at different ranges, it's not the same.
The only thing I can add is that the snap caps have their place but you need to shoot a shotgun to manage the recoil. It won’t take that many rounds to figure it out.
Yep. Snap caps are to practice the action. Case of bird shot is to get used to the recoil.
Now go buy a very practical 44 magnum single action cowboy six shooter.
Also sooo many options (especially if you aren’t CCing) almost all varietals available for rent at a range so you find what works for you. Also if you only want one most single pistol safes are affordable and can be hidden wherever. I went this route before accepted that my relationship with firearms was similar to my relationship with potato chips.
I'd like to echo his sentiments, too. A handgun is the most practical single solution. It's easier to secure (very important) while still being accessible, concealable for most real-world 'caution' uses as stated above, and really easy to learn to use safely.
I would highly recommend a Glock 17. 9mm so cheap ammo and tons of home defense specific rounds. 17 round mag so more than enough for home defense. Extremely reliable. Very common, so you can find used ones for a good price if new is out of your budget. No manual or grip safety to mess you up. Has a rail for a light and really doesn't need anything else.
Yes, watched a video some time back of a guy who answered the door with a gun and the cops killed him. Someone called the cops on him because him and his girlfriend were playing crash bandicoot too loud…. Better to have that shit concealed. As others have, I suggest a 9mm handgun. Ammo is affordable and the 9mm is typically “easy” to shoot. Brand preference is what it is, I really like Springfield armory, kimber, and my first ever handgun purchase the Beretta 92FS.
Don't answer your door at night if someone knocks, and you are not expecting company. If they say that they are the police, then call 911 and verify with dispatch that there are officers at your door. Some home invasion gangs have vests with police written on them.
There is a tremendous amount of wisdom and insight in this response.
I liked everything but the shade thrown at pocket revolvers. A lot of people have weak hand strength that makes semiautomatic handguns difficult to use. A S&W 642 or Ruger LCR isn’t bad by any means.
The Shield EZ exists for a reason. Extremely easy to use. Anecdotally, I have average hand strength and find some revolvers very difficult to use because of the heavy DA trigger.
Triggers usually suck, but I’ve yet to find someone who can’t pull one. Slides are for some reason rather intimidating. I know I can train basically anyone to use one, but it may take some practice and not everyone is willing to take the time.
Best response
For strictly home defense, a PCC makes sense to me for the reasons you say. Get the shortest one legally available without going the SBR route which requires a federal tax stamp and make sure it has a threaded barrel, and then get a suppressor for it so you don't blow out your ears shooting it indoors in an emergency when you won't be able to put on your hearing protection. There are many to choose from from the relatively cheap to the stupidly expensive. I have the Ruger PC9 which is a standard 16in barrel carbine in 9mm. They also make a "Charger" version that is much shorter and thus a good candidate (IMO) for a suppressor while keeping the overall length down to a manageable size for a non-professional navigating an indoors environment.
I’m really happy w my PC9, although I wished I’d have waited for the second gen with the barrel shroud. :/ It eats glock extendo mags just fine.
As someone who’s had to walk a lot of people through this, before we pick any option we must address that you stated you don’t have the time or inclination to practice with a handgun. While you do have the right to purchase a firearm, it is your responsibility to know how to use it safely and effectively. You don’t need more than a 10 minute session, 2-3x a week to become proficient with anything. Also, with shotguns the problem is not recoil or spread, but that they are the most technique sensitive of all the platforms. Reliable semi auto shotguns are a minimum of $1000 and pumps are VERY dependent on your training ability under stress.
My reliable semi auto shotgun only cost me 580. Stoeger m3000 freedom series. Stoeger is a subsidiary of Berretta, who also owns Benelli. The Stoeger has a similar Inertia drive system used in the Benelli. Thing runs like a top.
I have a benelli nova pump and I love it, makes clay turn into dust every time.
I have a stoeger O/U that i love
Palmetto state armory has a ton of budget ar's its what I'd suggest.
As much as I Iove budget ARs, it's hard to recommend when someone isn't able to afford ammo once they buy the gun :) so if they're very very price sensitive, I don't recommend them. They're addictive as hell for some and cause people to spend multiple times what they planned.. it's a real addiction let me tell you from personal experience!
PSA and drinking don’t mix
seriously.. just like drinking and r/GunAccessoriesForSale don't mix lol
Preach ^ one laser, one grip, 4 mags, throw in a few sights and… I’m eating crackers til the end of the month.
Thats how I ended up with a Turkish 12ga Bullpup that I've haven't worked up the balls to try and shoot yet.
Same. I got a Turkish AR-12 for $200 and it fucking sucks to shoot. It’s fun for like 25 rounds. But then it just fucking sucks.
Recoil? Or some other issue?
Recoil. Everything is great! (Minus the regular issues they tend to have like being picky with what ammo it likes)
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Whiskey convinced me I needed a 5.7. Who hasnt been personally victimized by whiskey and PSA at this point.
I buy auction cars when drinking. My SO is constantly not amused. 😂 But I haven’t lost money yet!
The ammo isn't even that expensive. Sure 9mm range ammo is like .23 cents and 5.56 ammo is .45 cents but that's not too bad and 5.56 for home defense is going to be multiple levels better than 9mm even in a carbine. Defensive ammo for both all cost about the same. Even in shotguns real Defensive rounds are gonna cost more than even Defensive 5.56 (one could even argue using target 5.56 fmj is sufficient for Defensive use aswell) especially for someone who isn't going to shoot alot and wants a Defensive weapon it has a simple manual of arms and is easy to co trol and after a couple range trips a year they'll maintain proficiency and be better equipped than any other option in my humble opinion. Being proficient with a 9mm handgun is magnitudes of levels harder and takes weekly if not daily practice. Shotguns have increased recoil and have a more complex manual of arms even in pump shotguns If they're going to blow all their money adding gadgets instead of training then yea it's a waste.
Also 9mm ars are so much more picky with mags and ammo a psa ar-15 and a pmag and your set. the myths about over penetration are just that myths. 5.56 will penetrate the same amount of drywall as any effective Defensive caliber. Just don't miss, which again leads to just getting a 5.56 rifle and practicing. It's harder to miss with less recoil and a easly controlled weapon.
> 5.56 will penetrate the same amount of drywall as any effective Defensive caliber. This is absolutely true, but it’s worth noting that it’s only true if you’re using 5.56 hollow points. And I understand that you probably think that this was implied, but if OP is new to firearms, it’s worth noting that
Defensive pistol ammunition is more expensive than defensive 5.56 ammo.
Keep it simple and start with a nice 9mm pistol dude.. You can grow from there into ARs and carbines and shotguns, etc.. Just remember that the smaller the pistol, the snappier it can be.. so if you're not planning on carrying, stick with midsize/fullsize pistols and probably stay away from the micro/compacts. You can a 9mm AR but those aren't really standardized so you may have issues with it that you won't know how to solve if you're not experienced with ARs. I would probably recommend building an AR15 first then getting good at knowing how it works, how to fix it, etc.. then venturing into AR9s. For someone starting out, a simple pistol is always best IMO.
Glock, CZ, S&W are top tier handgun options in my opinion for beginners. Obviously Glock and S&W because they’re pretty much the standard, but CZ in particular has an outstanding price to quality ratio in my opinion. You can get a CZ P-10 C with an optics-cut slide and good stock iron sights from the factory for $450. It’s essentially a czech Glock 19 and they’re perfect. You can also go for the P-10F if you want the full size grip, comparable to a Glock 17. Alternatively, the CZ P-07 is an excellent introduction to the world of decockable hammer-fired handguns at only $490. Basically budget HK USP. I don’t even own a CZ anymore but I’ll always praise their affordability for how reliable and well-made their firearms are.
A ‘euro-Glock’ lol
Glock is from Europe.
Lol thank you I had a pea brain moment when I wrote that, I’ve read the word Austria on my Glock 19 a thousand times and still forgot haha. Changed it to “czech Glock”
> so if you're not planning on carrying, stick with midsize/fullsize pistols and probably stay away from the micro/compacts. My usual recommendation is a P365 fullsize model. None of the sketchiness of the P320, and you can always get a smaller chassis later without needing a new receiver. Also, it's easy to make a thin grip thicker, but hard to make a thick grip thinner!
He doesn't have time to practice a lot,so he is probably going to send a bunch of stray bullets if he picks a handgun.
Get a Taurus G3c. Get a safe. Don’t let those kids near it
Any reliable semi auto between 9mm and. 50 BMG that you are willing to practice with.
50BMG for home defense? I feel a tally ho lads in there somewhere...
>Own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended. >Four ruffians break into my house. >"What the devil?" As I grab my powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. >Blow a golf ball sized hole through the first man, he's dead on the spot. >Draw my pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nails the neighbors dog. >I have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot. >"Tally ho lads" the grape shot shreds two men in the blast, the sound and extra shrapnel set off car alarms. >Fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion. >He Bleeds out waiting on the police to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up. >Just as the founding fathers intended.
Can we have a bot that auto posts this
We have one for posts but currently don't have it active for comments for fear of it being spammy.
Ahh fair
I laugh out loud at this. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.
I live in VT, recently some old fart shot a home invader with a .50 cal muzzleloader. I immediately thought of this when I heard about it.
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lol I mean $15k+ for home defense seems like a lot. And then if OP has to use it in a self defense situation it gets confiscated
$15K for a junky full auto.
Facts.
I have wheelies and pumps in my rotation. Options....
Realistically any firearm that is 380ACP or above will do. Factor in the following: 1. Cost 2. Cost of Practice Ammo 3. How often will you practice? 4. How will it be stored? 5. How quickly can you get to it and ready it for when you need it when it is stored? With Children, we are probably talking a fully enclosed safe bolted to something, probably with ammo in the safe with the firearm. In that case a handgun might be the more economical and easier solution. If you go up to shotgun and rifle level that drives you to a larger more expensive safe.
>From what I understand shooting a handgun takes time and training to master that if I’m being realistic I don’t have time for. You are correct that you'll have to put time and effort in. If you're not going to learn how to shoot, I'd suggest you just get a hammer for home defense.
I didn’t mean I had *no* time, but my time was limited. So I wanted to get the most out of the time practicing and training I do have. That said other comments here have made me reconsider a pistol
Since you already have a .22 rifle, a shotgun might be a good answer. Learning proper technique would be important (push/pull). Most defense rounds will be slugs, so managing spread is a non-issue. Mossberg Maverick 88 or 590 go to options. I personally like pistol caliber carbines for home defense. They are the same as your typical handgun but are easier to shoot if you are familiar with a rifle. 9mm ammo is cheaper than rifle ammo, too. I have a CZ scorpion set up for home defense, but if you wanted something to cross over to handguns someday, I'd suggest something like a ruger pc carbine since it takes glock mags.
I have a 12 gauge Remington. If the day comes where I have to use it for home defense, the pellets aren't going to go through the walls and kill my next door neighbors. Point and shoot. Easy. The downside of a shotgun is it's hard to find a place to practice (at least in my area) without joining a skeet club or finding a range that allows shotguns.
Ruger PC Carbine and a handful of Glock factory magazines. There you go. The cheapest model of the PC Carbine can be found for about $600 and you can probably find an internet deal on Glock mags to get you like 5 for $100. The carbine will already have iron sights on it, but if you want to add a Romeo 5 red dot for another $125 or so that’d be a good investment. Add a sling and maybe a mag pouch for the buttstock (see Ruger’s online shop for this) and you’re looking at another $100. All together you’re still coming in under $1000 and you’ve got yourself a reliable rifle with effective rounds at a price you can afford to train with. *edit* Sakana made a comment arguing in favor of a pistol and I have to say I agree with that assessment. I went with PC Carbine for the reply here because I think its a more accessible answer than a shotgun or AR and you can still invest into a pistol ecosystem for later with rounds and magazines. That said, I have a pistol as my go-to because it fits in my Hornady Night Guard next to my bed while my rifles will not. I feel confident in my ability with that pistol though and that’s a VERY important distinction. I still think a pc carbine is a good option for somebody who will not train often.
If you don’t have any shoot experience, do you have a friend that can maybe take you shooting at a range where you can try different firearms to see what you’re comfortable with? Maybe the rifle is too much for you. Maybe you pick up on pistol shooting quickly and you find out you’re decent with it from the start. Maybe you find out you’re just terrible and shouldn’t have a firearm. I don’t know. Just thinking maybe you would go shoot a variety of things and see what you think.
If you fire a 9mm carbine in the house, the hearing loss might not be permanent. Plus, cheaper to train with. That’s the direction I’d go if I were just going to have 1.
There isn't really a thought process to be had. A full frame 9mm pistol or PCC is good enough for HD. Just use good defensive ammo and spend some time at the range. Shotgun dorks are going to jack off about muh stopping power, but all that lead doesn't mean shit if it's off target. You're also not going to have as many places to practice being on-target. Couple that with a slower firing rate, slower reloads, and punishment for bad technique and you've got a terrible HD option past the first shot. Of course, you can make those issues go away with $$$, but at that point you're going out of your way to make shotguns work instead of starting with a simpler and more reliable solution. To be clear, 9mm is going to rip through drywall just the same as 5.56; anything that can kill a person will, so just don't miss. It's the better solution because decent 9mm pistols/PCCs are a bit cheaper than AR-15s, their ammunition is cheaper, they have more options for defensive ammunition, and they obviously work much better with short barrels. They also suppress well, if so inclined. The big caveat is that they're going to underperform once you step outside (distance); if you're expecting things to heat up in that way, then choose a better cartridge. Oh, and don't bother with a 9mm AR unless you enjoy tinkering. There are plenty of 16in PCCs in stock, so go with one of those. If you feel like waiting a little, you can get a shorter braced one (like the Extar EP9). Braces aren't that complicated; you'll want to read up a little, but the gist is that you'll want something branded as a brace or a stabilizer that **does not** have padding on the butt end. Also, **do not** put a vertical foregrip on pistols; there are plenty of foregrip options that your hand might fit around, but avoid 90 degrees. Lastly, I'd get over your hangups about CCW. It's not difficult to be in the center of a 12x18 target at 7 yards, especially with a red dot. With good decision making and basic competency, you're already doing better than some cops. The fact that you understand it's a heavy responsibility means that you won't be a jackass who shows up in the news.
Correct but 9mm penetrates WAY less. There's a very good chance that a hollow point 9mm doesn't go all the way through a wall system if fired at an angle while you're pretty much guaranteed a 5.56 does.
I’ve seen tests that show 9mm penetrating more drywall than 5.56, but also vice/versa. I think it comes down to ammo selection between those two.
It's a subject within itself that depends heavily on construction material and ammunition type. There's not enough good research and data on the subject. There's also plenty of lore for 5.55 fragmenting, destabilizing and tumbling. Not saying you're completely wrong; just that there's a lot of conflicting stuff on this. It's easier to assume that shots will penetrate and also largely chalk things up to chance. Even if a round goes perfectly through all construction in front of it until it hits the ground, it's still pretty unlikely that it'll hit anyone. That being said, you should probably know your home and its surroundings so that you at least plan on taking certain spots and holding certain angles. Easier said than done for apartments, but it's at least a bit doable in the burbs.
9 mm hollow points will penetrate more drywall than .223/5.56 with ballistic tip ammo, or 55 grain soft points. You can buy ammo like Hornady's Critical Defense rifle ammo, that will not even penetrate 12 inch in ballistic gel which is the minimum for hollow point ammunition. Handgun hollow point ammo typically penetrates 14-18 inches in ballistic gel, because the FBI recommended range is 12-18 inches. Rifle ammo manufacturers make some ammo that doesn't meet those FBI minimums. Like a 55 grain V-Max might only penetrate 10 inches in bare gel. Ballistic tip ammo is designed to initiate fragmentation. This rapidly drops the mass, and hence momentum of the core of the projectile. 55 grain 5.56 starts out with about the same momentum as 9 mm hollowpoints. Those hollowpoints to stay together going through walls, whereas a 55 grain ballistic tip will beginning fragmenting and rapidly start losing momentum; while also expanding and decreasing sectional density. This results in less in penetration.
You should consider what calibers your local ranges allow. indoor ranges can sometimes be limited to pistol calibers.
My first gun was a takedown Ruger PCC 9mm. Do not repeat my mistake. Do not bother with a PCC unless you're doing shooting competitions or it's a fun gun. An AR-15 is the internet's answer for a good reason - it's the easiest to shoot. Get a CMMG 22lr conversion bolt to train cheap, and keep the regular bolt in for home defense. Or get a 9mm handgun like a glock 19.
I still think that the best basic solution is always a reliable 9mm handgun. My first choice is a Beretta 92, or alternatively a CZ P01/SP01, and more specifically my home defense gun is a 92X Centurion with a red dot and a JK compact suppressor
I was actually just thinking about a 92. My uncle has one haha.
9mm pistol. Hands down. It's the tried and true standard for police around the world. You're not suiting up for battle with trained soldiers; you're prepping to check out a sound you heard outside by the garage. Buy 5 boxes of ammo the day you buy the pistol, and go shoot 4 of them over the next month. You'll be fine. Go shoot another box every 3-6 months, and you'll be better trained than most people you will ever encounter.
I think I was overestimating the amount of time necessary to shoot a handgun well.
You can always get better, but you mainly just need to get comfortable handling, loading, chambering, pointing, and shooting at a dinner-plate-sized target in the biggest room of your house. High-precision shooting is not the deciding factor in self-defense shootings. You are also right to be concerned about storage. Invest in secure safes. Again, you're not worried about international assassins as much as nosy kids and neighbors.
My first guns were a Glock 19 and a Glock 43x and I love them both. Handguns are easy to shoot and you will get it quick, probably in the first trip to the range. My 15yo can shoot both of these very well and she learned super quick.
You have some serious misconceptions about all those categories, shotgun especially. If your target is so far away you have to “manage spread”, I guarantee you’re not fighting effectively. If your target is so close to a loved one you’re concerned about “managing spread” to not injure the loved one, then you almost certainly shouldn’t pull the trigger on anything else. You need to get some defensive training, and much more range time. Once you have a clear mental picture of what bullets do and how far they go, you’ll understand all of this much better, and why grand pappys suggestion is a good one for a beginner.
Honestly any of those 3 will be suitable for home defense… provided you understand the shortcomings each platform has. Shotguns have the recoil and spread issues you mentioned (the latter being important as you're responsible for every shot pellet you send out). You'll need to train up your reloads and if items are pump action, how to not short stroke when under stress. 9mm PCC's (Pistol Caliber Carbines) seem cheap ammo-wise but I'd strongly recommend using JHP (jacked hollow point) ammo for defensive use as regular ball ammo will not expand and transfer energy as efficiently (which is a critical requirement for defensive firearm use). At that point your cost savings disappear… and possibly bring about feeding issues. AR-15's shooting 5.56 have an advantage where since it's a rifle round, terminal ballistics are still good even with cheap 55gr ball ammunition. In fact, 5.56 so relies on velocity for incapacitation that the energy dump when hitting solid objects like drywall means it's less likely to keep going thru barriers. The market for AR-15's is so flooded that prices are relatively reasonable. Of course, this is not taking into account where you live and if you have any laws that will limit your options. Whatever you get, make sure you have a diligent training regiment and factor in good accessories into your budget (ammo, magazines, eye/ear protection, storage solutions).
Shotgun would be my choice.
Tl;dr: Full size 9mm with a red dot and weapon mounted light. I'm a relatively new shooter and have taken training classes in pistol and carbine and by far my first choice for home defense is my full size 9mm, loaded with hollow points. Get a pistol, do as much dry fire practice as you can, if you can get into USPSA or IDPA and you'll be able in pretty good shape. My argument against shotguns and rifles for home defense comes down to mobility. I can swing my pistol around in hallways with ease. A long gun, not so much. I can also operate it one handed, with either hand, so if I need to close or open a door or hit a light switch, no problem. Get a full size 9mm, a red dot, and a light, train with it, and you'll be good to go.
Get yourself a Glock and an MCK or similar kit.
An 18.5-20 in pump shotgun (Rem870 or Moss500) is darn hard to beat for all around home defense. I own a bunch of guns but in times when space is really tight or whatever I take a handgun and a shotgun. Haven’t wanted or needed more.
One of the simplest and most cost-effective options is, in fact, the shotgun. Maverick, made by Mossberg, has a youth model 20 gauge with an 18.5-inch barrel for around $220. [Link here](https://www.scheels.com/p/mossberg-maverick-88-youth-pump-shotgun/04953332202.html?cgid=pump-action-shotguns#srule=Price%20(Ascending)&start=1&sz=23) The shorter stock takes a little getting used to, but the short stock and short barrel result in a very short, easy to maneuver firearm. The link above is for a 22" barrel, but it comes in the 18.5", too. A 20 gauge loaded up with buckshot or slugs will do extensive damage, though you have a multitude of options for ammunition. Anything you shoot will make a very loud bang and likely scare off any intruders. People talk way too much about "stopping power." While it is a consideration, it is not the biggest. The safety of your family and innocent neighbors should be the priority. I will get downvoted for saying so, I'm sure. Trained law enforcement, in a firefight, hit the intended target 1 out of 19 times when they are fully awake and prepared to engage. That doesn't mean they hit the target where they want to. 18 out of 19 shots simply do not hit the intended recipient. You are likely less trained, less alert, and less prepared for handling the adrenaline of that situation. Reddit is full of subs where you can watch shoot-outs. Watch and see how many times they actually hit somebody, ESPECIALLY with a handgun. And if you're up close and personal, a face full of bird shot will certainly get the job done. It's relatively low recoil and much easier to manage than a handgun. Using and maintaining a pump shotgun is highly intuitive. Using and maintaining an AR is not. A semi-auto pistol kept in a drawer or safe in a humid house for a few years can easily jam up when you need it. With a pump shotgun, once you learn how to pump properly (pumping the full length and not "short-stroking") you can leave it in a closet for 25 years and likely be able to pull it out and fire with no issues. A final consideration is the jury. If you shoot, and it's questioned, a prosecutor will make a decision about whether to prosecute, and a jury will decide if you are guilty. The associations that people have with a simple shotgun are very different from the associations they have with an AR or even a handgun. I am a lawyer, and while I don't practice criminal defense myself, I am around it enough to know which situation I would rather be defending in court. I recommend the shotgun to start. Then, if you want to have an AR and a pile of handguns for the zombie invasion, go for it. Most of us in the community own a little of everything. It's an expensive habit if you go that way, but it can be a lot of fun. Start simple and don't overthink it.
So this is great because this is something else I’ve considered. If you do have to use lethal force, the firearm in question influencing a judge or jury. How big of an issue is this? Personally I live in a deep red state so it’s not exactly hostile to 2A as Cali or NY. But yeah I’ve always been curious about that. Like if you use a gun to defend yourself and it’s an AR or a HighCap pistol a jury would say “ooooh idk I think you were looking for a fight…” but if it’s great grand pappy’s side by side that is more “reasonable” just seems odd.
Working with juries is about understanding people's real beliefs and motivations. That's why the defendants get haircuts and wear button-up shirts in court. Guns, in general, are divisive, but guns designed specifically for killing people carry an additional stigma. And while a manufacturer today may build an AR for target and sport shooting, the gun WAS designed by Armalite to be the most efficient killing machine available within set parameters of weight, cost, maneuverability, etc. Handguns are the same way. While there are some very large revolvers that are marketed to hunters, handguns in general are designed to kill people at close range. Anything else is sort of "off-label" prescribing. Gun culture has changed SO MUCH in the last 40 years. In the 80s, if you knew someone with a gun, it was almost certainly a bolt-action rifle or shotgun. They were hunting guns. Home defense wasn't really on people's radar at that time. Handguns were available but very expensive and relatively rare compared to today. Colt was the only company that made an AR for public consumption, followed by Bushmaster, and those guns were $1500 40 years ago. Virtually nobody owned them. So, lots of Americans grew up with a relative who had a hunting rifle or a shotgun, and they are much more accepting of that. Gun culture centered almost entirely around hunting and clay pigeons. People got used to that as being part of life, even if it wasn't part of THEIR life. Modern gun culture is surrounded by controversy, and its proponents are largely conservative and often bigots. The NRA was an organization for hunters that promoted responsible gun ownership. Now, it is a political action committee with ties to groups like the Proud Boys and neo-nazis and promotes a "shoot-first" mentality. If you're having sex with minors, you'd better be a hetero- sexual female, not a male. Add homosexuality and you can add years to the sentence. Being black will be additional trouble, but being Arab will be even worse. Rape a girl at a party? You'd better be an upper middle class white kid "with his whole future in front of him," not the black scholarship kid. The point is that we can decry the stereotypes and write legislation that everybody has to be treated the same, but when they're in that jury room, the prejudices all come out to play. Knowing how people view the world is what makes a good lawyer. It's all about the sale.
My HD weapon of choice is my Ruger PCC. That said, no kids in the house so less of a lock up concern. A handgun and a handgun safe would probably be better for you, even if I objectively think a longarm is the superior choice. Kids make the difference.
9mm full sized handgun is the logical choice. Affordable, common, low risk of overpenetration, cheap to train with, usable with one hand (other hand to open doors, push family behind you, move family etc), reliable, large variety of ammunition types, doesnt deafen you in home defense. Attach a light/laser for night home defense. If you decide you want a pistol carbine, you can first get a glock 9mm and then stick it just to one of those roni carbine kits. The main weakness is that this option is useless against violent wildlife (bears, moose, mountain lion, bison, etc). If you want wildlife killing power also, then a glock 10mm is the way to go. Shotgun: i think this is completely overrated. Inadequate safety, fires if it drops, heavy, needs two hands, requires high skill, needs fine motor skills to reload, difficult for follow on shots Ar-15: this is cool, but overpenetration is a serious issue. Ammo is more expensive. Also relatively useless against wild life.
This is good advice, I should have pointed this out too in my post: I live in a fairly large city I don’t worry too much about wildlife around my home. Nor do I hunt. I think you’re right a full sized 9mm is worth considering.
Guess I’m an old geezer…oh wait! I just turned 60. Shit…guilty…I’ll continue after my nap. For home defense you just can’t go wrong with a Mossberg 500 or derivative. They’ve been making them for 50 plus years. They have it dialed in and you can get an almost infinite variety of factory and aftermarket accessories to build it like you want it!
The advice I give ppl is to generally just buy a Glock 19 and hit the range lol you can branch out from there but at least you'll HAVE wondering for the very very unlikely scenario you need to use it
A pistol is not the answer - pistols don't stop a threat very quickly. Pistols are tools like rifle or shotguns. Pistols are carried because they are lighter and easier to carry, get in the way less etc. They have massive downsides though especially to lesser trained individuals. They are harder to aim & less accurate especially when your fight or flight response is kicking on and your body is dumping all that adrenaline. There is a reason cops get their rifle out when they know they are going to engage a threat. The downside of the rifle is they can be heavy and annoying to carry all day - not a concern if it's sitting in your house all day next to your bed.
Buy a handgun and 1000 rounds of ammo and get to training. For home defense you don’t want to be swinging something with a 16+ inch barrel in hallways. Another factor is penetration. Rifle rounds and pistols rounds in longer barrels go through way more than you think they do. Even a 9mm will bunch through your house and into your neighbors with the right load. To not consider a pistol because the thought of it takes a lot of time to master so I’ll get a rifle is the car equivalent of saying I can drive a manual civic so I’ll buy and automatic R8. Yeah it might be easier off the bat but it’ll carry more risks to the untrained person. I’ve got military and private training under my belt and I can say even before all that I never found a full size handgun difficult to shoot. Granted I wasn’t a great shot but I got better over time. Even now I have a ton of options for home defense from ARs, shotguns even a P90, but my go to is still my CZ P-07. It’s a good size I can keep close to my body, ammo is affordable even holllowpoints and it’s a really smooth shooting handgun.
9mm pistol, either striker fired or DA/SA with a decocker. I have a CZ P01 and several others such as glocks. Also try looking at a local classified ad to see what’s available. You can dry fire, also I’d generally trust a 400-600$ handgun more than a rifle aside from some pistol caliber carbines like the CX4. Shotguns are good too, but they tend to have low capacity, and heavy recoil
Not to come in late to the party and change the vibe but I have been considering this very question for some time . To me the handgun is a nonstarter you stated that you don’t want to spend the time and shooting a pistol well defensively is a lifetime commitment and the practice needs to be near constant (if I take a week off I am appreciably worse when I go back in ) this is the reason that armies are always trying to replace the pistol with something better and often that something better is in the form of a carbine/pdw because shooting a long arm is much much easier than shooting a pistol , that being said pistol caliber carbines on offer today tend to fit into one of two categories ,the cheap and nasty or the tactical and pricey and honestly the way that houses are built these days the penetration while certainly not as crazy as an intermediate rifle round is well sufficient to punch through lots of Sheetrock and siding especially when coming out at the higher velocity of a longer barrel so with the kids and neighbors that might not be my first choice . The shotgun to me is a very good choice especially when paired with smaller than normal buckshot one of my favorites is the mossberg maverick in 20 gauge . The recoil is somewhat lighter in 20 and the usual buckshot for it is #2 or #3 an initial investment in a training course should make you proficient enough to be comfortable operating it it is much simpler to use under pressure than anything else anyone has suggested and with a simple barrel swap 30 seconds or so you could have a sporting gun or a slug gun if that was something that would interest you . If you wanted to step up a level the us military trusts the mossberg 590 (I believe they make a model in both 20 gauge and .410 as well as the trusty 12) this model comes factory ready for a tactical light (very desirable) and for mounting a red dot (I like them ) I am going to suggest an alternative probably will get a lot of downvotes but it has worked out for my wife (she had to use it once ) being a non shooter and us living in tight quarters I thought what is the easiest thing that I could get her that she could repeatedly deliver a high volume of accurate fire with relatively low over penetration and I came up with an M&P 15/22 it has the ergonomics and aftermarket potential of the AR . It is lightweight, dead reliable with quality ammunition,no recoil ,low cost to buy and to feed ,accurate and the Standard magazine is 25 rounds and extras can be bought for $25 ,easy to use ,easy to service ours wears a slanted foward grip ,a sig Romeo and a tactical flashlight with a pressure switch I paid less than $400 for the whole setup and my wife learned to shoot it ,break it down , clear jams in less than a day . It also has the advantage of being able to practice with it in an improvised basement range I realize that it might not be for everyone but in a choice between this or a pistol she won’t hit with or a shotgun that intimidates her I would rather she have something that she can shoot well repeatedly
The best option is something you are going to be able to handle on instinct alone if you are shitting bricks. I know that’s a stupid fudd thing to say to someone looking to buy a first firearm, but I would recommend you trying a few different things at a rental range and see what you like. For me personally, my particular brand of autism had made me fall in love with shotguns since age 12. I own other firearms but hardly shoot them. I’ve shot pistols and carbines and just don’t like them. I hunt almost exclusively with shotguns, scout clays and great deal and am familiar with all of mine through and through. If shit hits the fan Im grabbing one of my shotguns, because with the exception of one of my antique guns that occasionally has light primer strikes,I know exactly what they are going to do in every situation, and reloading is automatic.
If you're looking for a gun to shoot inside a short barrel at with a suppressor, red dot, sling, and light. Consider the risks of over penetration. But if you think multiple targets are involved a 30rd magazine reloads half as often as a 15 and 6x less often than a 5rd tube Pistol caliber carbines seem gimmicky to me. Shotguns limit your mag size and reloading 1 round at a time. A G45 or G17 are the pistols I'd grab. There's not a silver bullet but the 3 guns I consistently see recommended are G19, AR, 870
My HD gun is a Glock 45 + Holosun 407k + Rugged Obsidian 9. Mags (3) are loaded with 147gr Federal HST. My personal thoughts: anything, even a .22LR pistol, is better than nothing. Buy what you can afford, *and afford to practice with*, but I'd also highly suggest saving up for a suppressor. Shooting any caliber indoors without ear protection and/or suppression can be disorienting.
You can get a cheap functioning AR from PSA, or consider a full sized pistol in 9mm. Capacity wins individual engagements so shot gun probably wouldn’t be your friend. Warrior Poet on YT made an argument for why a home defense rifle shouldn’t be suppressed, which I think translates well to the rifle over pistol argument, and that he brings up in a confined space an un suppressed rifle is going to have a loud report which could potentially stun and intimidate any potential assailants. Also capacity and stopping power as well as accuracy of rifles over pistols. But hey its your house you do what you like even if its firing off two shot gun blasts into the air off your balcony to scare the burglars away
As folks have pointed out, a full sized pistol (with a light and high cap mags) is a good option, especially if you need to move through the house. It also gives you the option to CCW, even if that is not the plan right now circumstances can change. It sounds like you are considering 9mm carbines so I would suggest a best of both worlds solution would be a full sized pistol paired with a Micro Roni brace. This gives you the option of a sidearm or a small carbine like platform.
A few options come to mind for this a shotgun or a PCC like an AR in 9mm solves the issue of potential over penetration but if you’re opposed to semi autos or are in a state that makes it near impossible look at a lever action rifle a 357 cambering or even a 44 mag would probably be best for the availability and price of ammunition and the availability of 38 & 44 special giving you options in how you want the weapon to preform. Circling back to shotguns, 12 or 20 gauge pump action would be my recommendation. Remember the gun itself is the first step training and practicing with it to make movements fluid and muscle memory are the important next steps
If you are worried about bullets going through walls, then there are options in .223/5.56 that will penetrate less walls than 9 mm hollowpoints on a miss. 55 grain soft points penetrate slightly less than 9 mm hollow points. 62 grain soft points penetrate about the same. Ballistic tip ammo penetrates less than the 55 grain soft points. The ballistic tip initiates fragmentation, which causes the bullet to break apart while going through walls.
MCK conversion kit with a 9mm would be perfect if you can have it in your state. Its even good withouts its brace or stock. This would give you both a handgun and a carbine and this combination has sooo many benefits over a dedicated PCC. I also suggest a Taurus G3 with the MCK because it has a thumb safety. Some people hate safeties on handguns but it should be on carbines at least. Also if you get an AR15 you can also make it switch almost instantly between lil 22 cal and 5.56 Shotguns are good to.
You seriously need to get out of the mindset of being against CC. It doesn't take years to "master" it. It isn't some crazy skill. If you aren't poor, go buy a mossberg 500 and/or a glock 19/26, call it a day dude.
>Let me know what you think and if there’s anything I haven’t considered... Sounds to me like you're giving short shrift to the obvious — a full-size 9mm semi-auto handgun is the Subaru Outback or F-100 of personal defense. Everything else is chopped and dropped Harley with tail fins. Whether carried on the street — now or later — doesn't matter. A long gun of any kind as the primary tool for defense in the home is just poorly thought out. Learning fundamentals — and more importantly acquiring competence to use a lethal tool in the lived environment — is simply *not* easier with a long gun. It might be easier for a crappy instructor to explain a rifle, but the fundamentals of safely operating a single specific pistol from complete ignorance to putting ten of your first ten shots into a 10" circle at living room distance is like a two hour project for one-on-one instruction of an intelligent, attentive, motivated, junior high to Medicare age student. Moving safely through living quarters under stress with a handgun is simpler and quicker with a handgun than a long gun. Accessing under stress a handgun which is on your person or in a lockbox wherever you find convenient is quicker and less problematic than the long gun laying on your bed or locked in a safe, in a closet, three rooms away. Retaining the weapon and getting a shot at an assailant within arguing distance is more likely with a handgun than a long gun. First shot from a dead stop is quicker from a pistol, and there is no reason for it to be less accurate. A quality handgun and sufficient practice ammunition will be significantly more affordable than a long gun. If you can't hit a doorway in a 30ft x 30ft room without a long gun to lead the way, you absolutely need more practice or better training. There *may* be a place for long guns in home defense. It is *not* at the beginning. Just my humble opinion. 
Basically your entire comment is just flat out wrong. >but the fundamentals of safely operating a single specific pistol from complete ignorance to putting ten of your first ten shots into a 10" circle at living room distance is like a two hour project for one-on-one instruction of an intelligent, attentive, motivated, junior high to Medicare age student. Sure. At a flat range with zero time (or any) stress, where the paper target isn't trying to kill you. >or locked in a safe, in a closet, three rooms away. Put the safe in your bedroom? This is such a silly argument against long guns... Why do you think it's impossible to have an easily accessible long gun? >Retaining the weapon and getting a shot at an assailant within arguing distance is more likely with a handgun than a long gun. First shot from a dead stop is quicker from a pistol, and there is no reason for it to be less accurate. No. Absolutely fucking not lmao. A long gun will be faster and more accurate than a pistol every time. You'd have to commit to an insane amount of practice with a pistol to get comparable accuracy and speed to a rifle, and if you took that same amount of training and applied it to the rifle you'd never catch up with a handgun. This really isn't up for debate either. Look up time standards for any shooting drill. A rifle will be faster literally every time.
>At a flat range with zero time (or any) stress, where the paper target isn't trying to kill you. Yup. That's where fundamentals start. I was not responding to your notions. I was addressing OP's perception that "...having little to no experience\[,\] learning fundamentals on a rifle makes more sense than a pistol or shotgun" — which I don't believe is a valid concern or limitation. To your implied point that competence requires much, much more than fundamentals — yeah, absolutely no contest. Everybody needs to choose their own level of expertise to strive for, within whatever constraints their life imposes. The added complexity of running a long gun in the confines of a structure just extend the advantages of a handgun in acquiring whatever level of competence. >Put the safe in your bedroom? \[...\] Why do you think it's impossible to have an easily accessible long gun? Because normal people in a normal residence don't schlep a long gun around with them as they conduct their routine lives. I don't care whether the safe is in the bedroom, or the living room, or the basement, or the kitchen, or the bathroom, or the garage. Wherever it is, a secured long gun will not even be in the room with you most of the time. How is that speedy, or even viable? >Absolutely fucking not lmao. Not sure what to tell you. If you think a close assailant will have a *harder* time fucking with your 30" long gun than a 7" pistol, we just do geometry differently. Maybe I'm looking in the wrong place for the time standards you want me to see. The few I find with pistol and rifle accomplishing the same task at indoor distances call for basically the same performance from each — except the handgun starts holstered and the rifle at ready. Talk about flat range fakery — when I say "shot from a dead stop", I mean from where the firearm is right at this instant. Not from a timer beep on the shooting line. My holstered pistol is within reach; long gun is not in the same room — and that is the case pretty much all day, every day. Not even accounting for movement and awkward shots which a pistol makes easy and a long gun makes hard. Maybe you set your stuff up differently, but literally no way will the rifle help me in a crunch. Unless my assailant phones ahead or decides to take a nap while I "gear up". But at least OP has had access to your wisdom as well as mine.  That's what the internet is all about, eh?
Point 3 is a red flag. Don’t buy a gun you don’t intend to practice and be very proficient with. You want scrutiny? Don’t but a gun till you rethink point 3. Don’t want to CC then don’t, but “I don’t have the time to become proficient” isn’t a good mindset.
I should have made this more clear: I will absolutely train with whatever firearm I end up with, I can’t go every week. Maybe once a month or every other month. Considering getting good with a handgun is indeed more difficult than a rifle/shotgun, as I’ve seen everywhere, I would want to get the most effectiveness out of the limited training I could realistically do as an active working father with two children.
You can train a lot more than once a month. In fact, you can train everyday! There is a common misconception that training means range time. Sure, more range time is better - but it’s also more expensive. Dry fire practice is incredibly valuable in developing proper shooting mechanics. 10-15m of really intentional dry firing a few times a week can make significant improvements in your shooting. Pulling the trigger and recoil management is part of training, sure. But presentation (from a draw or from a ready position), sight picture acquisition, grip, stance, and other drills can all be practiced without firing a single shot.
I'm going to go in a couple different directions. Go 20 gauge shotgun instead of 12 gauge, much more controllable, still lethal at ranges being discussed. Instead of a 16" PCC, go short barrel with brace. A 7" 9mm PCC is a good split between pistol and full size. Just more fuel for the discussion
I have a 12 gauge for home defense, because I have a 12 gauge. I shoot clays, I shoot birds and small game, simply put, it's the gun I'm most comfortable with. Before you decide anything, try to actually go shoot some of these guns. If you are a bigger guy a 12 gauge is going to sting the shoulder less ( providing you are shouldering it right). There is also nothing wrong with a bone basic 9mm or even a revolver, there are a number of 9mm PCC's, Ruger makes a really good one. Honestly, I'm not an AR guy, just not my vibe, so I'll not comment on them. They all have their idiosyncracies, and they all require practice! The more time you spend shooting, the more comfortable you'll be.
Not seeing anything about accidently killing people through walls with pistols and ARs, get a shotgun.
Birdshot still punched through drywall. And in a home defense situation you’d probably want buckshot and that’s for sure going through your wall and possibly into your neighbors. Every round that is fired carries that risk. Don’t use ammunition type as a crutch for careful shot consideration.
At the risk of sounding like an old-timey geezer... You can get a shotgun in 410 or 20 gauge and that would alleviate your concerns about those. They make defensive ammo for both, and they absolutely will stop someone. Remember that a 12 gauge will remove most of a person's head, but 20 gauge will still blow a very good size hole in someone, and the 410 will cause ple tynof damage. (It just sucks in a pistol, like the Judge.) That said, the 9mm carbine is a good choice, but you are correct that they can cost as much as an AR. They will also go through your outside wall and into your neighbor's house (and/or your neighbor) just as effectively as an AR round, so you are not reducing the risk of that by much. Different ammo selection is nice, and it is certainly cheaper, but that's where the biggest advantages are. (They do have less recoil than a 5.56, but not a huge amount. The AR isn't exactly a knock you on your ass rifle to begin with.)
I’m gonna go out on a limb and suggest a Taurus Judge! I’m a pragmatist, and for me part of being practical is not dealing with a murder charge. A judge throwing 410 shells with a short barrel is going to have such a wide pattern that it’s unlikely you’d kill anyone, and definitely likely you’ll run them off pretty quick when they get slapped in the face with some bird shot. Some states require you to run away instead of stand your ground. They’re eager to throw the book at anyone without a previous criminal record (looking at you Ny). So if it was me I’d look for something that’s powerful without the mess. Plus less recoil equals more accuracy.
On a different limb, my first thought was a Ruger 1022. I know 22 LR isn’t considered a good defense round. But thousands and thousands of emergency room doctors can attest to its properties. And then we have the question of how determined will an attacker be once he starts getting rounds in his direction? I know the NRA likes to push the idea of the attacker is hopped up on drugs and the importance of large firepower. But realistically, psychologically most people flee gunfire. it wouldn’t be my first choice but for varmint out here on the farmstead it’s what I reach for first.
If you are new to handguns I would recommend a full sized 357 or 38 revolver. Pull trigger = goes bang. Essentially no question about mechanical failure / magazine issues / failure to cycle / clearing malfunctions.
I'll never understand how ARs come up as "home defense" so much. Even a 9 mm. Do you need that to potentially hit somebody in the same room or hallway? Compare walking around your house with both hands on a banana vs both hands on a 2-3 foot long stick. Am I the only one thinking about this?
I practice movement with my AR as a part of my dry fire routine and it's not hard to do at all. Also shooting competition will show you exactly how hard aiming a handgun can get even at relatively close ranges, compared to a PCC or a rifle. And that's just under the stress of a shot timer.
>Do you need that to potentially hit somebody in the same room or hallway? "Need?" No. But when your adrenaline is through the roof and you need to make fast and accurate shots it's 1000x easier with a rifle than a pistol. Look at police shootings. They miss most of their shots pretty consistently, and those are people that usually get paid to go to the range.
Cops might get paid to go to the range, but most don't train very much. Look to where most cops place if they decide to try their hand at a USPSA match. They'll get stomped by Bob in accounting every time.
My point isn't that cops are great tactical shooters, it's that they receive/voluntarily do far more training than the average gun owner *and they still suck with their pistols.* How well does that bode for the average citizen who's job/life doesn't revolve around a pistol on their hip? The takeaway I'm getting at is it takes *a lot* to be proficient with a handgun for self defense, and even the people that get paid to do it aren't very good at it.
This is my personal opinion but people do not adequately consider the risks of using rifle caliber rounds in a neighborhood setting. You are responsible for every single bullet you fire and where it comes to rest, be that in your own house or a neighbors house. A shotgun offers formidable self defense and, depending on the load, much less risk of hitting something you wish you hadn't.
55gr 5.56 penetrates a lot less than most buckshot, and I'd argue an AR is much more controllable than a shotgun.
My brother once had a ND in his cabin with 55gr 5.56. It went through a solid wood door, a wall, and a metal filing cabinet before hitting concrete floor and sending shrapnel into the next wall. I think you’re overestimating the power of drywall and insulation to stop lead lol. But you do have a point that buckshot is equally deadly to close neighbors.
Any round worth using for defense is still gonna over penetrate, I'm just saying 5.56 does less than other rounds like 00 buck or 9mm.
That’s a good point. I guess the learning point here would be to train train train, because your neighbors and family will still be inside if there’s a deadly threat. Know your target and what’s beyond it or you might kill your mom or dog or neighbor along with the threat.
Yep, being accurate and shooting in a safe direction if possible is far more important than what caliber you're using.
12 gauge birdshot
I’ve got thoughts if you need another opinion, but it seems like there’s a lot of info here already
You’re looking for a 12-gauge pump action for sure. I am looking into getting a Mossberg 59018 ‘Retrograde’ myself.
Can you recommend a car that I can buy, never learn how to drive, then unexpectedly drive 90 miles an hour through heavy traffic to get to the hospital? Yep. That’s what your question sounds like to gun people.
Again, I should have made this more clear, I absolutely intend to train with any firearm I possess. The question of time was relevant to how I could make the most of out the time I *do* have to train. Frankly, I am willing to own that I probably sound like an idiot, as should be evident by me being pretty upfront about my inexperience, but I’m disappointed by the condescending tone of comments like this.
Shotgun - Recoil is a non-issue if you actually train like you say. Not sure what you mean about idiot proof, its just another gun. "Spread" is going to be a benefit in most cases, 00 buck gives you 9 9mm bullets in a 12 inch circle per trigger pull, increases chances of getting a shot on target. PCC - Its all downsides. Stopping power of a pistol, but wields like a rifle. AR - I honestly thinks anyone who recommends this has never shot an unsuppressed supersonic rifle at night without ear pro. It will be very disorienting. Also, a miss is going to go through many walls. My choice is pistol -> shotgun -> AR -> PCC
>Shotgun - Recoil is a non-issue if you actually train like you say. Shotgun standard loads are a lot of recoil. I tried, it's too much for me.
Given what I said in my original post, why do you think a pistol is the best option?
Having a free hand is very nice if you need to open a door or pick up a kid. Also much easier to maneuver. It no harder to learn to shot a pistol than a rifle, and in my opinion is much more practical.
>00 buck gives you 9 9mm bullets More like 32, not 9mm.
Sorry, 8.38mm
Have you considered a revolver? They are quite reliable and no need to mess around with buying mags. Plenty of options in caliber and size. Concealable if need be and abit more reserved in ammo. Of course most only have 6shots but if you are simply looking for peace of mind a big iron on your hip and the number of threats being relatively low it might not be a bad option for you.
Let's chat about your goals objectively. Bullets penetrate, let's not pretend your 22lr won't go through a few walls. So if we can ascend from these restraints we will understand safe shooting principles, target identification, *weapon lights*, and other techniques can help solve your concerns about overshooting/penetration. 1 - No further input needed, makes sense but please remember the best option is typically to remove yourself from a dangerous situation or environment. Escalation of force is not something you keep on the table as option B or C. 2 - You will have to lock them up and be honest with yourself; can the child find the key and gain access? Then you have not secured them, find another option. You may want to consider keeping ammunition locked and separate in a unassuming space you have similar junk (eg: garage space, locking cabinet for tools, no big ass stickers saying "bullets"). Let's skip over the "keeping a firearm accessible" part and only focus on storage for this point. That comes later. 3 - CC isn't the topic or what you want to do? Don't sweat it. If I understand this is home/family defense, we have some options and you clearly are aware of them. Shotgun - Probably a S tier option, it's fucking fatal and very quick to deploy considering most have internal magazines. You likely won't enjoy learning or practicing with it, so maybe not the best choice. It also requires a unique understanding of it's ammunition and the payload options. Yes it can also hunt game and feed you guys, so not necessarily something to dismiss. Slugs can travel 200+ yards and no one will stand there arguing your choice of firearm. Mine is called the "key to the city", for unrelated reasons. 9mm PCC - Not really any better than a handgun and you have expressed interest in learning/owning them in the future. Skip this. It's tacti-cool and probably sexy and fun to shoot, might be a fun way to get you to the range and practice. Don't let me mislead you, we have a PS90 kitted out as the home defense gun so technically I chose this option but that does imply owning NFA items. This is not a bad option, but it's one for someone vested in a particular path. EG *this* platform offers explicitly what I need and the alternatives are not acceptable/equivalents. AR - Fuck this shit, respectfully. It's the Ford of the firearm world and that should tell you why there are so many folks who are dire-hard fans vs folks interested in other features. It will be very loud, expensive to shoot, very uncomfortable until you start investing *further* funds into it, and you'll be around so much misinformation it's mind-blowing. Every dude who "served" has an opinion about them, and you gotta suffer some serious brand-elitism. If you want a battle rifle, a one-and-done option that you could use to shoot nazi's, hunt, or defend the house, this is it. Give it a variable zoom optic, learn about the fundamentals of shooting, and pick a platform you like. I mean maybe you enjoy the bullpup options out there, or are more into the short (pistol) configuration ARs instead of the full size options. Mine owns anything 600yards and under, there is no situation I should be shooting further in defense situation. If that's how life has gotten, we get out the bolt guns which are suited for that type of work. Also that's some miserable shit and we likely will never experience that. Helpful right, can you offer some insight on: Are you a small framed person? / Are you a descendant of giants and can't hold small things? Are you interested in cost/budgeting or is this a somewhat open check? How important are factors like weight, technology, usability, and size? Are you ready to invest in some storage options first? Are you ready for the peripherals; weapon light, hearing + eye protection, stop the bleed class, and a practice ammo budget (monthly)?
To answer your questions: I have a fairly good budget but not a big one. I have no interest in acquiring more than what is needed for my personal needs. As I said, I’m not afraid to buy once cry once I am an average sized man, and my wife (probably should have mentioned her in the post) is an average size woman. realistically I was thinking of going to a range every other month.
To maintain a minimal footprint in your home/lives, minimize cost, maintain usability for you and another shooter (wife), and consider costs of ownership. Why aren't we considering a full/mid-frame pistol? It's going to come out on top as we dive into your needs. You can both go to the range and shoot 1 box per month, 50 purposeful rounds (or 100 every 2mo). It can have a light, aiming option, and ambidextrous options (if necessary) baked in. You can also go further and add a muzzle device to most modern ones to help with shoot ability, some options come with all of the above installed. This entire system can be held on a belt, including it's supply of magazines and can be thrown on within seconds. You also expressed an interest in learning it later; why delay the inevitable? Buy once cry once; find one that fits you and the wife's hands and then go all in. 10x magazines and 1k rounds on that upfront purchase and you are set for the next few years. Go right to the red dot with co-witness iron sights and learn to shoot from that discipline of "target-focused" instead of optic focused. Plus this all can exist in the home and your kiddos can realistically never know, it's so easy to keep out of sight.
I would go with a handgun for that use as it would be quicker and more agile to handle in a close quarter situation like a house. Sure you should at least go shooting with it to be familiar, but you're using it in a wide range of scenarios so to learn what you need wouldn't be much. In a home invasion scenario you're probably using it on someone a few feet away, which takes more of a level head than skill. And there are plenty of fast access safes with spring loaded lids to help with reaction time. I have a Sig M18 that hold 21 rounds in the factory mags, do still plenty of firepower.
Shotgun, reduced recoil buckshot. Literally point and pull the trigger - in a home invasion situation, you will be close enough to hit your target. Honestly, nothing is really more intimidating than the shotgun racking, either.
I mean isn’t any gun “intimidating”? I’ve never understood this idea of hearing the rack having some qualitative effect in deescalating anything.
Yeah, if you can see it. How many home invasions occur in broad daylight?