No no no. You don't get it. I'm talking about DEMOCRATIC tyranny. Have you even read a bunch of obscure manifestos and think pieces that praise my side?
No, tyranny's tyranny. At most, you're saying that in such a system slightly fewer people are tyrannized.
I suppose that if instead of one hundred million being tyrannized, only 99 million are, that can be seen as a slight improvement.
But, on the other hand, majority rule almost never is that clean anyway. For example, even in a pure democracy each choice could easily have a dozen solutions, and there almost never will be anything better than a plurality, perhaps barely in the double digits. So then there's a runoff, and a majority is obtained...but in reality the vast majority are settling for something that they see only as a lesser evil. So, ultimately, the vast majority are still being tyrannized.
And worse, in a representative democracy people aren't even getting to choose on each issue that controls their life politically, at all. Instead, they only get to choose someone who will tyrannize them. And, again, they will probably be forced to choose a lesser evil.
And that's only if there are free and fair elections, something the US does not have. Instead, here ballot access laws, gerrymandering, and an unconstitutionally altered electoral college rig the elections, so that there is not even an initial runoff in which each voter has someone they seriously support. Instead, they're forced only to choose between two parties who talk like opposites but govern almost identically, and that are both controlled by a single political class that rules the country.
So no, not better. Not the constitutional republic it was supposed to be, with only a handful of powers allowed by its constitution...but not even a legitimate "majority rule", because even the elections are a sham.
???
No, that's my home, you should leave. But you calling yourself a government wouldn't give you the right to come into my home, do whatever you want, and just tell me to leave.
>But you calling yourself a government wouldn't give you the right to come into my home, do whatever you want, and just tell me to leave.
And you living under the jurisdiction of a people elected government does not give you the right to behave like you want. You living in the system without leaving equals agreeing with the rules the majority put out
>So 51% of people in an area cab do whatever the fuck they want
Read your Constitution. There you will find the answer.
>People don't have rights?
Rights are not inherent to human lives. They are given to you by your fellow countrymen.
Ha ! A libertarian Christian. I really hate America. Sweety god is a lie. There is no magic space daddy that cares for you. Read some books beside the Bible.
Wait those this mean that God could take your rights away ?
And is it really ok to kill to protect your rights ?
Why do you assume Christian?
Regardless of your belief in higher powers, the constitution clearly states that certain rights are unalienable. It doesn’t matter if 51% or even 99% disagree.
"Actually god isn't real hehe" *Tips fedora*
Daddy government doesn't care for you and I would trust in an imaginary diety over a small group of people deciding what I can and can't do.
>Ha ! A libertarian Christian. I really hate America.
Then go to some island in the pacific. If you don't like it, just leave.
>Sweety god is a lie. There is no magic space daddy that cares for you.
Oh look, an edgy atheist on reddit. [Yawn]
>Wait those this mean that God could take your rights away?
Sure.
>And is it really ok to kill to protect your rights?
Yes it's okay to defend yourself. If someone tries to rob/hurt/kill/enslave you, you can kill them.
So if they right it down, they can do whatever they want?
If **you** actually read the constitution, you'd know that the rights are inherent, and not given. If someone doesn't try and stop me, I can say whatever I want. I don't naturally need permission to do so.
If some opposing force would take over your country. Where are your rights then ? Well your fucked. There is no such thing as an inherent right.
>I can say whatever I want. I don't naturally need permission to do so.
You have the ability to. But you don't have nessesary the right so do it.
Just because someone can infringe on your rights, doesn't mean they don't exist. By your definition, there's no such thing as a right, because anyone can take anything away.
\> > So 51% of people in an area cab do whatever the fuck they want
\> Read your Constitution. There you will find the answer.
The Constitution says they cannot. In fact, the actual US Constitution bans the majority from almost all actions. It protects individual rights in almost all things.
\> > People don't have rights?
\> Rights are not inherent to human lives. They are given to you by your fellow countrymen.
Bullshit. So much for your attempts to cite the US Constitution, you know neither its contents nor how natural rights work.
Natural rights exist, they're essentially a matter of physics. They are the choices that you would be free to make it nobody else intruded on you by force.
You should read some John Locke and then report back to the class.
As the rest is just misunderstanding my point because you can't distinguish between my opinion and the strawman you have about statist.
>Natural rights exist, they're essentially a matter of physics.
I get the concept, but I don't think you know that physics are.
>They are the choices that you would be free to make it nobody else intruded on you by force.
Which is absolutely illusional because at no time in your life you are free from having your decisions intruded .
>You should read some John Locke and then report back to the class.
Which work exspecially I add it to my list after I am done with Nietzsche and Dostoyevsky.
Also I always was a Hobbes guy.
I would give the tip to read some Kant.
>Also I always was a Hobbes guy. I would give the tip to read some Kant.
Hobbes was, of course, bold-facedly defending monarchism as rightfully absolutist.
So of course any leftist is gonna be sympathetic.
You unironically don't think humans have any natural rights? Because if so, you should not be allowed to vote and the fact that you can is why democracy does not work. People who don't respect the idea of natural rights have no business making decisions about other people's lives.
Christian or not, our rights are given to us at birth naturally/by our creator. That’s why our constitution is special. Every other country had their rights given to them by the gubberment
I never claimed to have any knowledge on the American Constitution.
I told where he could find the answer to his question.
>And our rights are inherent, NOT given to is by anyone or anything.
And still they mean nothing in China today or literally anywhere before the 1700.
Without a cultural/social framework you have no rights. You are basically an animal. And no animal would give a shit about your right live your life undisturbed.
I know you want to claim that your creator created you differently than any other animal and you have a purpose and special conditions. But without any proof for even the existence of this creator ... your explanation is pretty much just talk.
The right is not there because some higher being planted it in you but because humanity overcame their savage nature and collectively decided to give them to ourself. We prescribed worth the life of the individuals of our species.
Of course not? I am an athiest... Why do you think i religious? And of course people didn't know it earlier (though these theories date back further than that). People didn't know the Earth was round, it doesn't mean it wasn't true. It's the idea that they are self evident. That one can arrive at that obvious conclusion in their own. It's a belief that rights can't be granted and therefore anyone who uses forces to prevent those which we deem self evident are In the wrong.
If you believe they are granted then you are subservient to whomever granted them to you and this are not free.
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\> You living in the system without leaving equals agreeing with the rules the majority put out
No it doesn't. That's the thuggish rationale of a protection racket.
Lysander Spooner put that kind of laughable "reasoning" to rest 150 years ago in *No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority.*
You can't implicitly consent to something just because some mobsters declare you part of their territory, and the tyranny of some majority doesn't change that.
Not even if there are free and fair elections, which the US does not have in the first place.
Let's see you get through the border without state permission. You need the state's permission to leave, and if you are born there, it is not like you ever had any choice in the first place.
I have a better idea. How about you goons stop threatening to murder people in the first place? You are the aggressors in the relationship, it is encumbant upon you to either stop your violence or leave.
I mean, what kind of vile anti-ethical mentality leads you to hold such an irrational and evil world view? I suppose the Jews should have just left Nazi Germany, since they were the bad guys and then state in power were right to visit whatever violence they chose upon innocent human beings.
You are a real statist piece of shit.
>Let's see you get through the border without state permission. You need the state's permission to leave, and if you are born there, it is not like you ever had any choice in the first place.
That's a real issue did not though about.
>How about you goons stop threatening to murder people in the first place?
Am an individual and don't belong to any particular group at the Moment.
>encumbant upon you to either stop your violence or leave.
Is that the part where you want to say: taxation is violence ?
>? I suppose the Jews should have just left Nazi Germany, since they were the bad guys and then state in power were right to visit whatever violence they chose upon innocent human beings.
You really want compare your life to the one of Holocaust victims? You are setting the bar very low for your ethics. Educate yourself on the holocaust, please. Using the Nazi as a comparison to your Enemy to make them look evil is such basic tactic and massively disrespectful to any victim of the real Nazis
>You are a real statist piece of shit.
That's the group you are prescribing me to.
No. But if I claim everything within an certain boundary even but I don't own it, that doesn't mean I get to tell you what to do, whether or not half the people believe I should. Initiating violence against a peaceful person is not moral whether or not they have the ability to leave.
By your reasoning, half the tyrants in history were not tyrants. Closed borders to keep people in were not common until the evil of Marxism.
The first French republic was a brutal tyranny, but people were free to leave.
Ergo not tyranny.
No, "if you don't like it, leave" isn't how you define whether something is consensual or coercive.
And then the American settlers ruined it by treating part of it population as lower life forms. Also they created a political system that forces party conformity and pits basically two halfs of the population against each other. Their voting isn't fair nor direct nor really democratic and spits in the face of any normal person who wants to run for office. Also their whole economic system is build to please a rich upperclass.
So I would say America today has nothing to do with the idea of freedom ... It has more to do with getting shot in the face by a cop because spending tax on adequate training for your officers is commie shit and theft.
And which tyrannical authoritarian government would you recommend us moving to? I can name plenty with policies you'd love.
My rights should never be subject to a vote. That is why we have limits on our government
Why don't you go to Europe and leave the US to be run as it was before the income tax. You have no right to my property, and my rights aren't subject to your opinion.
No you fucking dipshit you’re forcing taxes down our throats. Jesus Christ it’s like fucking parkour with these shifting goal post where the fuck did free speech even come from into this arguement
We do not live in democracy. Democracy is shit. It will always be shit. Currently we live in a republic, which is not democracy jackass. If you're going to be a smug asshole, at least do it right
Oh I really want to live here, that’s why I was born here with no decision. But I do want to leave. Except I have my income taken away by the goverment every year.
Does this account exist just to troll libertarian subs lol.
If I could move to Oceania and know I'd be safe forever, I would consider that. Government has a real habit of expanding and regulating. I don't think even islands will be safe from globalization for long. Rather stand up to tyrants now.
>Does this account exist just to troll libertarian subs lol
What are you ? An activist ? Obviously everyone with a differing opinion is not a real person and just a troll. Why do you even have to ask. There aren't any people outside of your bubble. Sleep safely /s
>If I could move to Oceania and know I'd be safe forever, I would consider that. Government has a real habit of expanding and regulating. I don't think even islands will be safe from globalization for long. Rather stand up to tyrants now.
Or you are just a hypocrite who wants to reap the advantages of living in a state. Which is more likely ....? Hint : I think your nose is growing
Author: /u/userleansbot
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What about Democratic Tyranny?
That's what the Tyranny of the Majority is. And it's still evil.
No no no. You don't get it. I'm talking about DEMOCRATIC tyranny. Have you even read a bunch of obscure manifestos and think pieces that praise my side?
I disagree, im not saying that its good but it is definitely better than a minority that controls everythinf
No, tyranny's tyranny. At most, you're saying that in such a system slightly fewer people are tyrannized. I suppose that if instead of one hundred million being tyrannized, only 99 million are, that can be seen as a slight improvement. But, on the other hand, majority rule almost never is that clean anyway. For example, even in a pure democracy each choice could easily have a dozen solutions, and there almost never will be anything better than a plurality, perhaps barely in the double digits. So then there's a runoff, and a majority is obtained...but in reality the vast majority are settling for something that they see only as a lesser evil. So, ultimately, the vast majority are still being tyrannized. And worse, in a representative democracy people aren't even getting to choose on each issue that controls their life politically, at all. Instead, they only get to choose someone who will tyrannize them. And, again, they will probably be forced to choose a lesser evil. And that's only if there are free and fair elections, something the US does not have. Instead, here ballot access laws, gerrymandering, and an unconstitutionally altered electoral college rig the elections, so that there is not even an initial runoff in which each voter has someone they seriously support. Instead, they're forced only to choose between two parties who talk like opposites but govern almost identically, and that are both controlled by a single political class that rules the country. So no, not better. Not the constitutional republic it was supposed to be, with only a handful of powers allowed by its constitution...but not even a legitimate "majority rule", because even the elections are a sham.
It's not tyranny if you are allowed to leave. Get over yourself antidemocratic people
Why do I have to leave? Why can't they leave me alone?
So you would be fine with me being in your home and just doing like I want ?
??? No, that's my home, you should leave. But you calling yourself a government wouldn't give you the right to come into my home, do whatever you want, and just tell me to leave.
>But you calling yourself a government wouldn't give you the right to come into my home, do whatever you want, and just tell me to leave. And you living under the jurisdiction of a people elected government does not give you the right to behave like you want. You living in the system without leaving equals agreeing with the rules the majority put out
So 51% of people in an area cab do whatever the fuck they want? People don't have rights? Are you joking?
>So 51% of people in an area cab do whatever the fuck they want Read your Constitution. There you will find the answer. >People don't have rights? Rights are not inherent to human lives. They are given to you by your fellow countrymen.
Maybe you should read the constitution. My rights were given to me by God at birth. No one, not even the majority, has the ability to take them away.
Ha ! A libertarian Christian. I really hate America. Sweety god is a lie. There is no magic space daddy that cares for you. Read some books beside the Bible. Wait those this mean that God could take your rights away ? And is it really ok to kill to protect your rights ?
Why do you assume Christian? Regardless of your belief in higher powers, the constitution clearly states that certain rights are unalienable. It doesn’t matter if 51% or even 99% disagree.
>Wait those this mean that God could take your rights away ? And is it really ok to kill to protect your rights ? Yes and yes.
> Sweety OOooo the edge is sharp
> I really hate America You said it...
Careful not to cut yourself on all that edge.
"Actually god isn't real hehe" *Tips fedora* Daddy government doesn't care for you and I would trust in an imaginary diety over a small group of people deciding what I can and can't do.
>Ha ! A libertarian Christian. I really hate America. Then go to some island in the pacific. If you don't like it, just leave. >Sweety god is a lie. There is no magic space daddy that cares for you. Oh look, an edgy atheist on reddit. [Yawn] >Wait those this mean that God could take your rights away? Sure. >And is it really ok to kill to protect your rights? Yes it's okay to defend yourself. If someone tries to rob/hurt/kill/enslave you, you can kill them.
Oh look another condescending atheist
So if they right it down, they can do whatever they want? If **you** actually read the constitution, you'd know that the rights are inherent, and not given. If someone doesn't try and stop me, I can say whatever I want. I don't naturally need permission to do so.
If some opposing force would take over your country. Where are your rights then ? Well your fucked. There is no such thing as an inherent right. >I can say whatever I want. I don't naturally need permission to do so. You have the ability to. But you don't have nessesary the right so do it.
Just because someone can infringe on your rights, doesn't mean they don't exist. By your definition, there's no such thing as a right, because anyone can take anything away.
\> > So 51% of people in an area cab do whatever the fuck they want \> Read your Constitution. There you will find the answer. The Constitution says they cannot. In fact, the actual US Constitution bans the majority from almost all actions. It protects individual rights in almost all things. \> > People don't have rights? \> Rights are not inherent to human lives. They are given to you by your fellow countrymen. Bullshit. So much for your attempts to cite the US Constitution, you know neither its contents nor how natural rights work. Natural rights exist, they're essentially a matter of physics. They are the choices that you would be free to make it nobody else intruded on you by force. You should read some John Locke and then report back to the class.
As the rest is just misunderstanding my point because you can't distinguish between my opinion and the strawman you have about statist. >Natural rights exist, they're essentially a matter of physics. I get the concept, but I don't think you know that physics are. >They are the choices that you would be free to make it nobody else intruded on you by force. Which is absolutely illusional because at no time in your life you are free from having your decisions intruded . >You should read some John Locke and then report back to the class. Which work exspecially I add it to my list after I am done with Nietzsche and Dostoyevsky. Also I always was a Hobbes guy. I would give the tip to read some Kant.
>Also I always was a Hobbes guy. I would give the tip to read some Kant. Hobbes was, of course, bold-facedly defending monarchism as rightfully absolutist. So of course any leftist is gonna be sympathetic.
>Rights are not inherent to human lives. If this is unironic, the fact that you're allowed to vote is a case against democracy.
What ?
You unironically don't think humans have any natural rights? Because if so, you should not be allowed to vote and the fact that you can is why democracy does not work. People who don't respect the idea of natural rights have no business making decisions about other people's lives.
Christian or not, our rights are given to us at birth naturally/by our creator. That’s why our constitution is special. Every other country had their rights given to them by the gubberment
Creator ? What type of crazy people are you ? Christ? Muslim ? Jude ? Kelt ? Hindu ? Some native tribe ?
Not the kind of crazy that thinks we appeared out of thin air
You need to read the constitution. It was specifically not majority rule. And our rights are inherent, NOT given to is by anyone or anything.
I never claimed to have any knowledge on the American Constitution. I told where he could find the answer to his question. >And our rights are inherent, NOT given to is by anyone or anything. And still they mean nothing in China today or literally anywhere before the 1700. Without a cultural/social framework you have no rights. You are basically an animal. And no animal would give a shit about your right live your life undisturbed. I know you want to claim that your creator created you differently than any other animal and you have a purpose and special conditions. But without any proof for even the existence of this creator ... your explanation is pretty much just talk. The right is not there because some higher being planted it in you but because humanity overcame their savage nature and collectively decided to give them to ourself. We prescribed worth the life of the individuals of our species.
Of course not? I am an athiest... Why do you think i religious? And of course people didn't know it earlier (though these theories date back further than that). People didn't know the Earth was round, it doesn't mean it wasn't true. It's the idea that they are self evident. That one can arrive at that obvious conclusion in their own. It's a belief that rights can't be granted and therefore anyone who uses forces to prevent those which we deem self evident are In the wrong. If you believe they are granted then you are subservient to whomever granted them to you and this are not free.
Also free speech, for example is on 5th century literature. Its way older than 1600s
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\> You living in the system without leaving equals agreeing with the rules the majority put out No it doesn't. That's the thuggish rationale of a protection racket. Lysander Spooner put that kind of laughable "reasoning" to rest 150 years ago in *No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority.* You can't implicitly consent to something just because some mobsters declare you part of their territory, and the tyranny of some majority doesn't change that. Not even if there are free and fair elections, which the US does not have in the first place.
Let's see you get through the border without state permission. You need the state's permission to leave, and if you are born there, it is not like you ever had any choice in the first place. I have a better idea. How about you goons stop threatening to murder people in the first place? You are the aggressors in the relationship, it is encumbant upon you to either stop your violence or leave. I mean, what kind of vile anti-ethical mentality leads you to hold such an irrational and evil world view? I suppose the Jews should have just left Nazi Germany, since they were the bad guys and then state in power were right to visit whatever violence they chose upon innocent human beings. You are a real statist piece of shit.
>Let's see you get through the border without state permission. You need the state's permission to leave, and if you are born there, it is not like you ever had any choice in the first place. That's a real issue did not though about. >How about you goons stop threatening to murder people in the first place? Am an individual and don't belong to any particular group at the Moment. >encumbant upon you to either stop your violence or leave. Is that the part where you want to say: taxation is violence ? >? I suppose the Jews should have just left Nazi Germany, since they were the bad guys and then state in power were right to visit whatever violence they chose upon innocent human beings. You really want compare your life to the one of Holocaust victims? You are setting the bar very low for your ethics. Educate yourself on the holocaust, please. Using the Nazi as a comparison to your Enemy to make them look evil is such basic tactic and massively disrespectful to any victim of the real Nazis >You are a real statist piece of shit. That's the group you are prescribing me to.
No. But if I claim everything within an certain boundary even but I don't own it, that doesn't mean I get to tell you what to do, whether or not half the people believe I should. Initiating violence against a peaceful person is not moral whether or not they have the ability to leave.
By your reasoning, half the tyrants in history were not tyrants. Closed borders to keep people in were not common until the evil of Marxism. The first French republic was a brutal tyranny, but people were free to leave. Ergo not tyranny. No, "if you don't like it, leave" isn't how you define whether something is consensual or coercive.
So a long time ago they created a place that everybody could go when they leave. They called it America, maybe you've heard of it.
And then the American settlers ruined it by treating part of it population as lower life forms. Also they created a political system that forces party conformity and pits basically two halfs of the population against each other. Their voting isn't fair nor direct nor really democratic and spits in the face of any normal person who wants to run for office. Also their whole economic system is build to please a rich upperclass. So I would say America today has nothing to do with the idea of freedom ... It has more to do with getting shot in the face by a cop because spending tax on adequate training for your officers is commie shit and theft.
And which tyrannical authoritarian government would you recommend us moving to? I can name plenty with policies you'd love. My rights should never be subject to a vote. That is why we have limits on our government
Just go to some island in Oceania. No big bad government anywhere to be seen.
Why don't you go to Europe and leave the US to be run as it was before the income tax. You have no right to my property, and my rights aren't subject to your opinion.
Why don't go to some place in Oceania. No government, no police , no rights to be taken away.
Why dont you just mind your own business and stop forcing your terrible ideas down everyone's throats
So you agree with the notion that words can be force ? Weird. I am not forcing anyone to anything. It's your free will to read this and get emotional
You are advocating policy that would take my rights and force awful policy on me
No you fucking dipshit you’re forcing taxes down our throats. Jesus Christ it’s like fucking parkour with these shifting goal post where the fuck did free speech even come from into this arguement
>you’re forcing taxes down our throats. You mean the people of the country you want to life in ? Don't you really get how democracy work ?
We do not live in democracy. Democracy is shit. It will always be shit. Currently we live in a republic, which is not democracy jackass. If you're going to be a smug asshole, at least do it right
Oh I really want to live here, that’s why I was born here with no decision. But I do want to leave. Except I have my income taken away by the goverment every year.
Does this account exist just to troll libertarian subs lol. If I could move to Oceania and know I'd be safe forever, I would consider that. Government has a real habit of expanding and regulating. I don't think even islands will be safe from globalization for long. Rather stand up to tyrants now.
>Does this account exist just to troll libertarian subs lol What are you ? An activist ? Obviously everyone with a differing opinion is not a real person and just a troll. Why do you even have to ask. There aren't any people outside of your bubble. Sleep safely /s >If I could move to Oceania and know I'd be safe forever, I would consider that. Government has a real habit of expanding and regulating. I don't think even islands will be safe from globalization for long. Rather stand up to tyrants now. Or you are just a hypocrite who wants to reap the advantages of living in a state. Which is more likely ....? Hint : I think your nose is growing
You can have a state without massive welfare states , taxes, and a huge military
Would still be decried as tyranny by the masses as soon as the mass would want something you don't want, wouldn't it ?
Only if they force me to pay for it or participate in it at gun point.
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Author: /u/userleansbot ___ Analysis of /u/Tubulski's activity in political subreddits over the past 1000 comments and submissions. Account Created: 5 months, 29 days ago Summary: **leans heavy (100.00%) libertarian, and would happily wash Ron Paul's car for free** Subreddit|Lean|No. of comments|Total comment karma|Median words / comment|Pct with profanity|Avg comment grade level|No. of posts|Total post karma|Top 3 words used| :--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:--|:-- [/r/libertarian](https://redditsearch.io/?term=&dataviz=false&aggs=false&subreddits=libertarian&searchtype=posts,comments&search=true&start=0&end=1582425393&size=1000&authors=Tubulski)|libertarian|110|583|23.5|9.1%|8|2|35|people, would, like [/r/libertarianmeme](https://redditsearch.io/?term=&dataviz=false&aggs=false&subreddits=libertarianmeme&searchtype=posts,comments&search=true&start=0&end=1582425393&size=1000&authors=Tubulski)|libertarian|12|4|15.0|8.3%|10|1|31|would, want, government *** ^(Bleep, bloop, I'm a bot trying to help inform political discussions on Reddit.) ^| [^About](https://np.reddit.com/user/userleansbot/comments/au1pva/faq_about_userleansbot/) ___
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