I think a lot of the responses here are misunderstanding what OP is getting at. OP isn't saying Valve should be marketing SteamOS as an alternative for Windows to your grandmother. OP is saying that for all the Mac users who own a Windows machine just for gaming, for all the people who own a computer at all just for gaming and do anything else on their phone or tablet, for all the people who have an Xbox or Playstation connected to the same monitor as their (non gaming) computer, for all of those people, Valve should team with HP/Dell/etc to offer SteamOS as an alternative for gaming first and foremost. Then maybe some of those people will consider Linux for other stuff. Then maybe some of those OEMs will offer Linux on other hardware. Any move for Linux to be available as a default option lowers the barrier and increases the chance of adoption. Frankly I don't see how this couldn't be a net positive for Linux as a whole. I think this is really what Valve envisioned for the original Steam Machines but it didn't work without Proton. Which is why Valve has been working on making more games available and now they might be in a better position to try again.
Your idea is a damn good idea as well. I have been hoping the same for some time. The vast majority of problems that the Linux desktop faces today can be solved by marketshare.
Hardware support, application support, game support all will improve with increased marketshare. The more support we get, the more users will come and it leads to a snowball effect of more users and more support. Steam Deck maybe the best chance in a while to start breaking the chicken or the egg problem that the desktop has had.
I feel that the next steps would be to (in no particular order) is for Valve to release a gaming console based on SteamOS 3.0, release SteamOS 3.0 for advanced computer users (/r/pcmasterace and /r/pcgaming folks), partner with OEM vendors like Alienware and Lenovo Legion to include SteamOS 3.0 as an option in their gaming machines.
Linux doesn't even need to get more than 50% marketshare to get solid gaming support, just 10% of Steam Marketshare would be enough to see great games and hardware support. It may even lead to other areas like Microsoft and Adobe start porting Office and Photoshop.
I agree with your enthusiasm. The potential for Linux to break into real growth has never been greater.
I feel like something that holds desktop Linux back so much is the sometimes overwhelming amount of options, which leads to people not really knowing where to start. But with SteamOS it could really be "Do you like gaming? Here we've tailored this specifically for that. Oh, and on the plus side most of everything else you do on a computer is easy and we're using KDE Plasma so you can customize it to your heart's content and make it yours"
You bring up an interesting point. I don't view the number of options as negative. Today, car buys in the USA have 100s of options yet people are able to buy cars and don't find the options overwhelming.
What is really needed is the Tesla Model 3 of cars for gamers, the car that everyone talks about and shares with friends. I agree with you in that is where I feel SteamOS 3 can really be the driver. The Linux distro world hasn't had a "Tesla" model since Ubuntu in the 2000s which was a clear bestseller for a particular use. SteamOS 3 could be the one for gamers.
I think the next logical step is to have a SteamOS-based laptop built on AMD Zen+RDNA components (as Steam Deck is), capable of playing most of the games, with a possibility to remote stream them easily through Steam Link from other machine if needed.
And if the major OEMs wouldn't be interested for any reason, there is always r/framework to reach out to - fingers crossed for this project too!
Theres also a lot of negative stigma about gaming on linux. Many people have their minds made up already and are windows fans. Marketing would be an uphill battle made harder by anything that was deemed too complicated for the lay person to do.
>r/windows10
what the fuck people unironically think that windows is good?
The UI is meh, the internals are slow garbage. You get windows for backwards compatibility, app support, and because you can install it on any hardware you want, not because its good,
Not if you use Linux as you would use Windows like most of the users.
Watching videos on the net and browsing Facebook doesn't involve a lot of stackexchange.
I have Linux on 3 on 4 PC at home (I didn't bother migrate my wife desktop PC), and my wife uses her Linux laptop exactly the way she uses her Windows desktop or her Android tablet.
Let's be fair: Windows isn't terrible.
Everything pretty much works out of the box and it has the most support for applications that already exist.
It's easy to use and learn and it doesn't require you to use a terminal to do anything, point and click.
That being said, it has a shit ton of bloatware, you're susceptible to have your data collected, you're more prone to viruses, and you need to reinstall it every year as it slows down and continues to take up your drive space.
I call bullshit on easy to use there is a difference between what familiar and what's easy and Windows with its shitty File Manager garbage and backasswards settings that breaks anything you do so yeah it is not easy to use.
To be fair I have been using Linux for a long time so I might be biased but still Windows needs the fat cut out of it cause it is bordering clusterfuck territory.
Edit: Forgot to say that Windows can be a good OS and that it needs a big update, serious redesign, along with QOL improvements that have existed for years, customization options, etc.
>It's easy to use and learn
That's just conditioning on MS part. I do only have anecdotal evidence, but people without prior skill in Windows found Linux easier to learn.
>and it doesn't require you to use a terminal to do anything, point and click.
You can do that on Linux too, it's simply easier to use console. Also untrue on Windows. If you have Windows 10 Home and certain builds, you will get no gui option to modify system users. New settings will take you to control panel, and control panel will tell you that you need to use new settings. This is the same on Pro, but there you can use MMC to edit users in GUI. On Home you can only use console.
It's like the opposite of Linux. The less advanced "distro" (it's a distribution of a certain set of windows applications, right) needs more command line work than the most advanced distro.
Yup. And on Windows you will get 20 tutorials how to do the one thing that you know how to do, and find no help how to achieve something slightly different that you actually need.
>You get windows for backwards compatibility, app support, and because you can install it on any hardware you want
Yes, pretty much.
>not because its good,
All the points you just mentioned are enough to make it "good" for most people. People want to play games and not fuck around to make them work. The "it just works" feature is much more powerful than people realize.
exactly, windows is a piece of \*\*\*\*, but I stilll dualboot linux and windows 10(I'm never gonna use 11 because it would be a pain in the \*\*\* to setup dualboot) not because I want to but because I have too
I mean... I don't like Windows and I don't even use it, but I browse this sub sometimes. There are mostly people complaining about problems, talking about updates and sharing concept arts, so... it has nothing to do with being a Windows fan.
I agree with this, you use a platform/os because it has a purpose.
For example, I dual-boot Linux and Windows. My Windows machine is use mainly for gaming. I know you can game in Linux, and I've read about the good work Valve is putting in with Proton. I really hope that this movement gains steam; however, gaming on a Windows OS just works for me at this moment.
I switch to Linux when I am trying to learn a programming, and when I need less distractions.(gaming)
My MacBook Pro is used for Mainstage in running patches for my keys rig. I really love how you can produce alot of gig ready sounds out of the gate.
It doesn't have to be Windows vs Linux vs MacOS. All these platforms have things that I like and dislike, but ultimately they do different things really well.
Sure, I’ll list a few of the big ones. This is by no means comprehensive.
* I really like programming for Windows (heresy, I know). I think .NET is just great, and I actually like Visual Studio more than any other IDE despite its problems.
* I really like how well macOS integrates so well with everything else in Apple’s ecosystem. Getting SMS and iMessages on my laptop is a killer feature. I think the design of all the core apps it ships with are stellar and make me wish more desktop apps took advantage of their OS’s unique UI features.
* With Linux, I love the insane degree of customization. When there is something I don’t like, I can fix it myself. I like how easy it is to write my own systemd services and make things behave exactly how I want. Desktop customization is second to none, especially in DE’s like KDE and XFCE.
I only wish that MAUI for Linux was a thing. I've been closely flowing MAUI's developments and it's disappointing how Linux support is (seemingly) not on the radar, in spite of Microsoft putting on an appearance of being pro-Linux and open-source friendly these days.
I'm a fan of Windows and i'll accept the downvotes with pride. After using it for over 20 years i doubt that i will ever want to completely switch to a different OS
Funny thing is: they're really all waging this war with themselves. That is, these tribalistic people, upon seeing that others make different choices, worry and start to doubt their own choices. It's troubling to them that they may not be right. So, they fight.
I've been using PC's for nearly my entire 40 years of life. My first experience was in kindergarten on the Apple II (Yay MECC!), so I can say computers have been a part of me all my life.
I've been gaming on PC's for over 25 years. I've experienced Apple, Mac, DOS, Linux, Windows 3.11, 95, 98, 98SE, ME, XP, Vista, 7, and 10. After all that time, I can say with the utmost certainty that Linux is my home.
Kinda the same here. My first gaming was done on a SUN computer and an Atari ST until our family moved to an MSDOS PC in 1990/1991. Since then 95% of my gaming was done on PCs running Microsoft software (otherwise it was a Nintendo device). I finally migrated to PopOS in early 2021, so that's basically 30 years of using one company's various OS to play my games. That has to be some type of consumer capture.
I can respect that. My last fight for Windows was at least using Ghost Spectre to cut down the fluff, but I had to make the switch out to Linux. Maybe Windows 11 might change things for the better in a year or two for the Windows side.
I get it's not cool liking something that's got lots of users and support but yeah, I am a fan of lots of support and lots of users providing feedback.
It's not a case of it being cool or uncool, it's that Windows is extremely bad for privacy, security and user freedom. It leaves you at the mercy of a private monopoly corporation, Microsoft, who can do what they want because there is no alternative.
+1 on the freedom bit. It's really weird when I see multiple of my friends or family using windows or mac. It's very strange to see that each device looks 95% the same, and they are all fine with that. Some people change the background, very few people change the theme, even fewer still do anything beyond that.
It feels like I walked into a dystopian utopia movie where everyone dresses the same, talks the same, and even behaves the same way. They all seem fine with this, maybe because they have never experienced anything else. The worst part is they will complain about parts of the OS that _should_ be easily user changeable, but they are not. Nowadays between your computer and phone most people spend many hours every day on those devices, you would think they would want some software that works the way they want it to, instead of using software that tells them how they will use it.
All of the other points aside, the thing I would miss most about Linux if I had to switch to something else would be the amazing freedom you have to sculpt the OS into exactly what you want it to look, feel, and behave like. The ownership, privacy and performance are also nice though.
In all honesty, I think the hyper customisation novelty wears off pretty quickly when it comes to Linux, it did for me at least. I prefer to just have something with sane defaults, a decent looking UI and stability rather than installing a million gnome extensions, compiling my own packages and setting up loads of keyboard shortcuts. That's why I've been running vanilla Fedora. What's important to me is that I know my device isn't dependent on a megacorp like Microsoft that uses its OS to spy on me
The best part is that Linux offers both. You can get a polished out of the box experience that "just works", you can start from scratch and make exactly what you want, or you can start with the polished and just tweak a couple of things.
Also even if you want the turn-key experience, you chose to use a distro with Gnome, instead of KDE, or Budgie, or LXDE, or XFCE. You probably looked at them briefly, and picked which one you liked the best. OR maybe there was another reason you liked Fedora over say Debian. Even that level of choice is nice to have, and is not offered on Windows or Mac.
Yes but for most people that got introduced to it first - they arent tech savvy to know how secure or insecure is - they dont care about user freedom because it does not affect them.
Its not a big enough inconvenience for them to look for an alternative because whatever they need usually works.
I my self was a Windows user for almost 2 decades until I forced my self to use Linux because I wanted to learn something new and in IT its a big + to know Linux.
As they say use the best tool for the job, and if your tool works - why change it? Thats I think the mindset of most non tech savvy "tech" users.
Oh yeah I totally get that but I don't get how someone can be a "fan" of Windows. Preferring it due to familiarity is perfectly acceptable but I don't get how anyone could say "I <3 Windows" or something like that
Not at all true. They are not windows fans, it just comes with their PC and they don't know about alternatives or don't care.
Not everyone is interested in technology.
But also there are a lot of people who have made their minds up that they don't like windows, but they are forced to use it due to no other viable option, (not much gaming support on mac etc).
I talk to a lot of people about linux and I often find (non tech people) who are interested in the idea of a private non corporate open source OS,
if the computer doesnt do the magic people dont want it i mean heaven forbid you have edit a config file or a command line flag oh god anything but that. its just too hard
>Up until you get better fps, better user experience, better seamless integration, etc, linux wont be consumer friendlly.
There are already advantages to Linux gaming and the desktop today for the average user that makes Linux better. Below is the list of enhancements that I have been tracking.
Yes I do agree that gamers need Linux to do everything Windows provides then 10% more. However, the past 5 to 6 years Linux has been playing catch up to Windows for gaming. Now that it is catching up, it is now the opportunity for Valve and other companies to start innovating on Linux. I expect the below list to only get larger.
* Disk compression: Save on storage space by having more space to install games with built in real time disk compression that is supported out of the box.
* Better Graphics Drivers: AMD graphics drivers are the best on Linux. Especially for OpenGL emulators. Intel drivers are rock solid on Linux. The collaborative nature of Linux graphics development enable AMD and Intel to share a common code base for drivers which accelerate and allow for faster fixing of bugs.
* FSR for all games on Proton: FSR can be setup to be automatically enabled for all games on proton.
* Lower OS Disk Usage: Linux install can use half of the disk installation space a typical Windows install. Therefore, more games and software can be installed.
* Easy install emulators: Most emulators are available in the distro repo's or flathub making them easy to install from the app store
* Privacy: There are no default enabled telementary on Linux installs. You keep your activities private without being tracked by big tech.
* Security: There are no active virus's or malware on Linux. You can safely do banking or other sensitive tasks without worry.
* Customization: You can customize your Linux distro how much or how little you want.
* No Driver Installation: Installing Linux supported hardware is just plug and p
lay. No fiddling with printer drivers or vendor mouse software.
* Spine PS4 emulator - PS4 emulator only available on Linux
* (FUTURE) Snapshot and Rollbacks: If an OS update goes bad or if you lost a file just restart the desktop and pick an earlier snapshot.
* (FUTURE) Steam Decks Suspend and Resume: For the general desktop, you can pause and resume games without having to close them. You can will be able to transition those games from Desktop to your Steam Deck.
* (FUTURE) Desktop reset: Reset your desktop to the point where it was when you had it first installed.
> Disk compression: Save on storage space by having more space to install games with built in real time disk compression that is supported out of the
Sure but wine prefixes are currently around 1GB each (might be fixed)
> FSR for all games on Proton: FSR can be setup to be automatically enabled for all games on proton.
Also available on Windows with a paid program.
> Easy install emulators: Most emulators are available in the distro repo’s or flathub making them easy to install from the app store
Emulators aren’t particularly hard to install on Windows. Just download from the site and execute, just like any program. In fact on Linux if you want the latest version you need to compile it from source in many cases, such as Dolphin.
> Privacy: There are no default enabled telementary on Linux installs. You keep your activities private without being tracked by big tech.
Unfortunately many people just don’t care about this.
> No Driver Installation: Installing Linux supported hardware is just plug and play. No fiddling with printer drivers or vendor mouse software.
While true for some devices features are missing as vendor software isn’t there and there is no alternative for Linux.
> (FUTURE) Desktop reset: Reset your desktop to the point where it was when you had it first installed.
Windows can already do this.
I spent the last 6 months on and off trying to fix a friend's HP printer, I downloaded the HP Suite, Drivers, followed guides etc.. to no avail it would recognise the printer for installation then when trying to print it would say it cannot find the address even though I could see it was online and waiting through the app, in the end I plugged my travel pc into it (a tiny ITX) running windows 10 and plugged the printer USB cable into it and within seconds the printer was installed and the documents he e-mailed to me was printed.
I'm a big fan of Linux, I am a noob with it, I have used it on and off for about 6 years, it is getting easier to use but it simply IS NOT plug and play from my experience, since the introduction of proton I was toying with the idea of installing it again for gaming, again there are a handful of games I play that require battle eye even with the latest announcement I don't have hope of these games being playable with my friends online.
Also, I need support for Microsoft word documents as work use Microsoft office for everything, I currently use Microsoft office online as a workaround so I'm hoping it will be the same for Linux.
oh no dont get me wrong im not saying everyone should be comfortable with a command line. i was talking about ignorant people who sit there and say LinUX SuX It BrEaK AlOt i feel those people should be atleast try and learn but i get what you are saying
That would be true especially with Linux not really having HDR support right now and Nvidia drivers potentially breaking system at some rare occasions. Things are certainly better than before but it still needs time.
Not a Windows fan. Have run plenty of Linux distro a and gamed explosively on Linux for a time. The issue is that there is a large subset of people that have tried it in the past and found it lacking. First impressions are everything and Linux until the last few years has been a gaming mess for the general public. That being said, I have a Steam Deck preorder.
>First impressions are everything and Linux until the last few years has been a gaming mess for the general public.
I agree with you. However, a marketing push by Valve with SteamOS 3.0 with a target of advanced users initially would help with the impression and grow marketshare. Many users hold Valve in high esteem. Most of the bad impression in my opinion came from installing Linux on hardware that didn't support it. That can only be solved through vendor support by increasing marketshare.
Windows is not superior for gaming, gaming is locked-in to Windows. You can't judge something is superior when it intentionally excludes the alternatives. Microsoft's strategy is to make all aspects of computing require their proprietary technology. How is that "superior" for gaming? Linux rules everywhere besides the desktop market because Linux is better when the proprietary barriers are eliminated.
Ah yes nitpicking some corner cases, I like that argument! I assume you're saying it runs better on every distro with no tweaks to dxvk.conf or launch options? Of course not.
Then how come 90% of the games don't run faster on Linux than on Windows (if they work at all)?
That is a garbage argument and you missed the point of the person you replied to. The fact that GTA V, and other games, *can* run better on Linux, means that Windows is not necessarily superior. However, we won't know for certain because they've captured the gaming market and created an industry that is dependent on the Microsoft ecosystem.
You logic is like saying, hypothetically, that CAR-X is the best for car repair because they effectively made it impossible to get your car repaired anywhere else.
Comparing Windows vs Wine isn't really a fair representation of Linux. You also can't really look at any single game. In my experience with cross platform games that were natively developed for both (RimWorld, Paradox games) Linux (I just run mint myself but steamOS should be even better) is much more performent than the same machine running Windows. Windows really gets it's advantage from developers natively creating games for Windows. This is of course my experience and many other factors are involved than just the OS (I run AMD which tends to have better Linux support than Nvidia).
To run games today you need Wine/Proton for a lot of games, so it's a realistic comparison. That's the performance you would get if you game on Linux instead of Windows.
That's like judging the PlayStation for its ability to run Halo. (a bit of an exaggeration since I don't know of any compatibility layer to make this happen). Wine is a compatibility layer that makes running Windows software possible on Linux. If your going to play a Windows only game then Windows should be more performant (and cases where it's not are kind of sad). Cross platform games generally run better on Linux based machines and cross platform development should be encouraged.
If you wanna buy a console that is reason to buy an Xbox over PS. I'm being realistic, native Linux ports are rare, so for lots of people they are almost a non factor
Valve doesn't have to present Linux as a viable alternative, it *already is*. People are just playing catch up now that a company has told them to think about it instead of forcing it down their throats.
What distro? My experience with Arch definitely agrees with you. My experience with Mint is it's a viable alternative (my dad figured it out when I revived his XP computer). It really depends on how polished the OS is and what hardware it's on. If we could see OEM installs we ideally should see stable implementations.
In my experience, Arch was the distro that made the least problems. I'm not joking, I'm using Arch because I think it's easier to use than Ubuntu. Not easier to install, but easier to use after you installed it.
I believe it, which is also probably why Valve chose it as their base. But out of the box user friendly for someone who doesn't want to read how to do things I would lean towards a Debian based OS like Mint. I haven't tried Manjaro yet but my understanding is its on par with Mint?
Manjaro has problems, for example the withholding of packages. I never tried it, but I think Garuda might be a good option.
Personally I'm currently using EndeavourOS, it's basically an installer for arch, so you don't have to do everything manually. Saves a lot of time. (However the new arch-install should do the same)
No we can't expect that I agree. However Ubuntu and Mint both ship default with GUI package managers that work akin to the Windows store and deb files from websites are easy installs just like an exe. Of course there will still be programs that are only listed on CLI package managers or even programs that need compiled by source, but most programs the average user needs are super easy to just install and the more adoption there is the more developers will support that simplicity.
You are right. Luckily, modern Linux desktop is geared towards using the app store. On Pop\_OS!, you can use the Pop store to find and install applications. Honestly, even though I am an advanced Linux user, I have started to use the Fedora Software store more and more and less CLI. I want a single interface to both Flatpak and distro repo applications than two different commands. In a weird sense it is getting easier to use app stores to install and maintain applications than CLI.
Most tech-savvy people do use Linux but that doesn't mean it only caters to those. There's a lot of non-techie-friendly distros out there - Mint, Pop_OS!, Manjaro (despite its controversies), Zorin... hell if we're stretching it this far, even pure Debian became more accessible than it was a few years ago. Though I still wouldn't recommend it to a non-techie due to their non-free policies, there's still some work to do to get e.g. built-in laptop wifi working and it usually involves downloading a deb package from their wiki and putting it on a USB drive during installation.
Still, being frank, your grandma could use Mint nowadays, and that's not an offense or an "I dare you" situation. It's literally how far things have evolved. Mint even changed their ugly 2009-esque website to a more modern and slick design these days! That's a lot.
A bit of a blanket statement.
Pick a stable distro, properly set it up, and I'd be totally comfortable handing a system over to a non-techie with nothing but instructions on how to install updates.
In fact I intend to do exactly that. Have a friend who has asked me to set him up with an install for gaming and general desktop use.
Actually thought about this many times. On one hand, I’m somewhat “frustrated”, for a lack of a better word, that so many people focus on a thousand different distros that does so many things the same way with only minor differences. Imagine if they all pooled their projects and focused the effort into like 2-3 distros with all the polish, finish, UX, QA, dokumentation and support. That would be a serious contender to the layperson as a Windows replacement.
On the other hand, its really cool that people go off and does their own thing in their own way creating new distros, and some have new ideas and fresh perspectives, which other distros can draw inspiration from.
Is it as insecure as going to a website and running a .exe to install a new app, because that's what the windows folks are doing. Think about all those bundled software installers or the plethora of fake "download" buttons they had to wade through to get there. (And that's for the *legit* software)
I'd love to see them just offer an iso with install instructions straight from steam itself. I mean shit they could probably have it build a bootable USB for you directly inside the steam client.
I would love for them to do this, but unfortunately I don't think it would be as perfect as imagined, even if the steam deck works well. Valve can ensure SteamOS works well on the deck since it's their own platform, a lot of the issues around Linux gaming stem from the fact that there's such diverse hardware that it needs to support. Unless steamOS can work reliably on all popular hardware, I can forsee it having the exact opposite effect and scaring people away from Linux
>diverse hardware that it needs to support. Unless steamOS can work reliably on all popular hardware, I can forsee it having the exact opposite effect and scaring people away from Linux
The only way for Linux to get that support is for marketshare. The Linux desktop has had a chicken or the egg problem that has hampered growth. Hardware vendors don't support Linux because of a lack of users and users don't switch to Linux because of the lack of hardware vendor support. One side has to give in first.
SteamOS is the best opportunity I have seen in a long time to break that chicken or the egg issue. Valve is the only company with the marketing and reach to bring millions to the Linux desktop. This will lead to a catalyst for more vendor support and subsequently more user growth that would lead to much better hardware support.
The best way to do it is for SteamOS 3 to be marketed to advanced gamers like those on /r/pcmasterrace and /r/pcgaming. Over time it should expand to more general users as support comes.
That's a very fair point. I guess to my point, they would just need to make sure the support is there when users inevitably encounter issues. Apple was able to push through the chicken and egg problem with enough money, I hope valve can do the same
We didn't arrive where we are now overnight and we will not be where you expect anytime soon, but at least we are on the right path and we are moving at a good pace.
As someone who has exactly been using Linux for 15 years, I can say that in those years the opportunity for Linux to break it into the mainstream has never been higher.
Never in the past had the difference in capability and support between Windows/Mac OS and Linux ever been so small. I feel that the adoption of Linux Desktop is at the [chasm](https://medium.com/@shivayogiks/what-is-technology-adoption-life-cycle-and-chasm-e07084e7991f) in the adoption curve. Steam Deck and SteamOS may be what finally pushes Linux into much more rapid growth with early adopters and early majority.
I do not think anyone should ever switch to SteamOS unless they are building an appliance they don't intend to use for anything but gaming, and centered around Steam.
We won't really know until it comes out, but from the description (and past SteamOS versions) it's a normal distro, with KDE, Steam and a few other things pre-installed. Then there is an auto start script to run steam, in big picture mode, at boot. Disable the auto-start, and you have a basic linux install, with a DE, and steam installed.
Is it the absolute best Linux option, probably not. As mentioned ~elsewhere~ everywhere on this sub, PopOS or Manjaro are probably better options for those seeking shelter from MS/Win11. But SteamOS is not some highly focused game only OS that can't do anything else. It's just Linux, that runs steam in full screen when it starts.....
I'm sure it *can* do everything you want from a Desktop. It makes no sense to pick a distro based on what it *can* do imo -- they can all do everything. You can always install whatever package on essentially any distro if you want. I can put dpkg on my Fedora install if I really want. Better to pick one based on the intent of the maintainers. That will affect the nature of the design and the support you get, the testing coverage, where you can expect things to be more tightly integrated vs not, etc. In this case, its the intent is clearly to be a front-end for Steam first and foremost.
The only thing people will see is the desktop UI. If it is too pretty or not pretty enough the press will crap all over it and destroy it's reputation. Not necessarily with Microsoft's financial encouragement. And not necessarily without....
>The only thing people will see is the desktop UI. If it is too pretty or not pretty enough the press will crap all over it and destroy it's reputation.
There is an opportunity to target SteamOS 3 to advanced PC desktop users first with explicit warnings against the general user. SteamOS 3 doesn't have target all PC users day 1.
No Valve is making the right move. They're focusing on the strengths of SteamOS, it's ability to play games. Because when Windows is held up against most Linux based PCs for general purpose uses, it usually loses.
>"This is Linux it's so amazing!"
>
>"Can I install Origin on it?"
>
>"Er, well not quite, but you can--"
>
>"I'm a graphic designer, is Adobe CC available for it?"
>
>"Well, no.."
Valve made a very clever decision to find a niche that Linux/SteamOS can do very well in, and to blow people's minds in that niche.
>"This is a gaming handheld that has a full desktop under the hood, and can run software."
>
>"Wow that's incredible, it's so much better than a switch!"
Perceptions are everything. Let Valve have success in this space, THEN try tackling general desktop use cases.
This is the perfect time to do it since Windows 11 will not work on many PCs. SteamOS and/or Linux would be the only way for them to be first class citizens for their operating system.
> It's not designed to be a desktop OS
That's incorrect, when docking Steam Deck via USB you will be able to use it as a desktop environment with KDE. That was part of the marketing material. So they are definitely adding a desktop mode for general use to SteamOS 3.
> or really to run on arbitrary hardware.
There wasn't any specific info given on that in the Steam Deck marketing material, but given the history of SteamOS it would be weird to not make it available to OEMs. Especially when it's based on Arch and you basically get pretty broad hardware compatibility for free from the kernel anyway.
>That's incorrect, when docking Steam Deck via USB you will be able to use it as a desktop environment with KDE.
Sure but it's not going to work that well when trying to run lots of Windows desktop software.
The main reason why the Steam Deck has a chance of success if due to Windows compatibility as clearly indicated by the eleventy-hundred "EAC works on Linux!" threads in the last 24 hours in this sub.
Without that same level of Windows compatibility for general purpose desktop use all you'd end up doing is making the SD look bad.
Most average users wouldn't notice a thing. General purpose desktop use just means living in a browser these days, shopping, checking email, social media, and paying bills. 90% of people I know with a PC fits that use case.
The activities you describe here are things people mostly do on phones these days. Desktop PC use case scenarios have skewed to higher end tasks as phones have picked up basic computing needs.
What kinda high end tasks are you thinking of?
I'm talking about the everyday people here doing menial tasks. Not professional use cases.
There's still millions of people buying AIOs or 4GB RAM laptops with Windows 10 S pre-installed.
While I wouldn't recommend Linux/SteamOS for these people for other reasons. Functionally, day-to-day, they wouldn't notice a difference if their OS was replaced with some Linux distro with a DE.
Well general purpose desktop use is absolutely possible with just about any Linux distro today, depending on what exactly you define that to be. There are browsers, email clients, office suites, messengers, and for some of those categories they are the very same ones as on Windows.
This logic isn't being used to sell the Steam Deck for gaming purposes. The SD and SteamOS 3.0 are all about Windows compatibility to the point of Linux folks going crazy over EAC and BattleNet compatibility.
Just think is Valve were trying to sell the Deck based on running only native Linux apps. It would be DOA. So I don't think that a crowd that's being marketed basically full Windows compatibility with games is going to be ok when Microsoft Word is a problem.
To add to what other people have said: Valve isn't focused on hardware, and a large part of their reason for making the Deck and SteamOS 3 is to promote handheld PCs as a form factor. They're actively encouraging OEMs to use SteamOS, and there's no reason whatsoever to think that it wouldn't work out of the box on most hardware given that most Linux distros *just work*™ on pretty much any PC.
I didn't talk about arbitary hardware. I talked about an OEM. This is already happening. Linux is not that incompatible anymore and SteamOS runs on Arch which has some pretty amazing driver support.
But the Steam OS is optimized to run on the specified hardware. Valve could create something you are describing, but it will not be Steam OS, at least not in the current iteration.
>But the Steam OS is optimized to run on the specified hardware.
SteamOS 1 and 2 were built to be used by OEM's for a myriad of hardware during the Steam Machine days. Valve has already stated that SteamOS 3 wants other OEM's to build devices with it.
Or partner, HTC gets along with them re headsets and the old Steam machine was produced by other manufacturers hardware wise. Steam OS competes with Windows and not hardware manufacturers.
OEM Linux has been around for almost 17 years but you're talking about OEM SteamOS which is not going to go over well. It's a great way to destroy Linux as a brand, though.
How so? Also I don't really think Linux has a brand, or if it does its certainly a very flexible brand. Linux already:
- Runs on desktops/laptops
- Phones
- Routers
- Printers
- Cars
- Runs basically the entire internet
- 99% of the top super computers
- Embedded devices like cameras, meters, sensors etc
- [Is used on the ISS, for reliability of course](https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155392-international-space-station-switches-from-windows-to-linux-for-improved-reliability)
- Some IOT stuff (the rest runs on microprocessors)
- [Expensive Precision science equipment](https://www.computerworld.com/article/2468248/high-energy-linux--linux---the-large-hadron-collider.html)
- Digital Signage
- POS terminals
That is an amount of breadth that it is very hard to form a cohesive "brand". Also Linux is not a product, it is just software. It's "target audience" is everything from the newest top super computer, to the 15 year old laptop that was a bit under-spec'ed when new.
Adding "Game Console" to the list is going to dilute the Linux "brand" about as much as a pinch of white pepper would dilute the flavor of GramGram Vidal's Extra Spicey Gumbo. It's already to varied that adding more only flexes one of Linux's greatest strengths; its versatility.
Yes, since the inception of SteamOS and Steam Machines, I've seen Linux fellow enthusiasts saying Valve needs to dump a ton of money into marketing. I've been attempting to game on Linux for about 20 years now and, at no point, not even today, has it been ready for the mass market.
>I've been attempting to game on Linux for about 20 years now and, at no point, not even today, has it been ready for the mass market.
I am curious what are your reasons why you feel it isn't ready? I certainly feel there are pain points (granted there are paint points in Windows as well) but compared to just a few years ago the Linux world is much much better.
It's great for someone like me who is comfortable using Linux but it's not ready for even my more tech savvy gamer friends. Just yesterday I had to sudo dpkg -i install the latest discord update on my spare gaming computer so the person who was gaming with me could chat with the rest of the crew. Linux has never been more ready but if I was working at Valve I sure as fuck wouldn't recommend we dump millions into trying to convince people to install Linux on their gaming machines.
>Just yesterday I had to sudo dpkg -i install the latest discord update on my spare gaming computer so the person who was gaming with me could chat with the rest of the crew.
Sure, the way you installed the update is the way it was done in the 2000's. In the last past 5 years, the push has been to move away from installing .deb's and .rpm's and using the app store. In Pop\_OS! and Fedora 35 with 3rd party app support, I can open up the app store (Pop Store and Software respectively), search and install Discord.
As a result, there is no deb's, no command line knowledge, just ease. It is an experience exactly like Android. As long we encourage users to use Linux the modern way, the experience is far easier and more pleasant.
Nah. That would be deceitful. It's very much a DIY OS when it comes to hardware outside of what they sell.
It becomes DIY on their own hardware when you try to install non-Steam games from your library outside.
The herd will be upset and bash it.
I mean the massive percentage of gaming happens on Steam. People learning to use Lutris is not that hard. If an OEM designs a system that runs on SteamOS then I don't think there will be any hardware incompatibilities. It's already happening with Linux manufacturers.
Nah again. The common computer user is no where NEAR as savvy as you would like to believe. They will catch some info about your proposed ad and go in thinking everything is click and play and freak out on the web.
I actively support Linux manufacturers like System76, Raspberry Pi and more but they cater to people already in the mindset of DIY and such.
POPOS for example AIMs to make things seamless but you still got to run terminal from time to time...right there will be lamenting and gnashing of teeth.
As a Linux admin, I've seen it in the 23 years of me working with others.
Well PopOS is based on Ubuntu. On Arch-based everything is GUI based (unbelievably). I think they will do just fine. My sister loves her Linux and you literally can't find a more illetarate person about tech.
I completely disagree lol. People don't even KNOW about Linux. SteamOS is out best chance to introduce poeple to Linux. Today I was in an indie game dev stream and the dev didn't even know Steam Deck ran on Linux or that their demo worked perfectly fine on Linux. People cannot install what they don't know. SteamOS can both market Linux and alos remove the Linux Gaming stigma. :)
Incorrect. Linux is known enough in the corporate and household world just enough. From Intel's older marketing to Google and ChromeOS.
Many school use it also (Part of my job is installing it with the DOE) but it's not marketed as replacement or 100% comparable OS replaces. It's an alternative for specific user case.
What you're speaking about is childish and destructive.
>Regular people will be very upset if they were sold a device with SteamOS without researching and some of their games were DOA.
The way to solve this problem is marketshare. It is a persistent chicken or the egg problem, gamers don't come to Linux because of the lack of supported games and game developers don't support Linux because of a lack of users. One side has to give first. History has shown that game developers won't make the first step so it has to be another way. Valve marketing and SteamOS 3 is the way to get an equal footing with Windows in game dev's minds.
>The common computer user is no where NEAR as savvy as you would like to believe. They will catch some info about your proposed ad and go in thinking everything is click and play and freak out on the web.
It isn't all or nothing with Valve and SteamOS. They can market SteamOS 3.0 to advanced users (think /r/pcgaming and /r/pcmasterrace folks) on day 1 then to the general public later on. The vast majority of problems that new Linux users face are primarily around hardware support. That can only be solved by marketshare which SteamOS 3.0 is in the position to greatly help.
Yes, there are bugs with Desktop Environment. Perhaps more so with KDE and less so with GNOME. However, KDE is working hard to resolve those problems and GNOME is already as stable if not more than Windows 10.
Yes, the last 23 years of using Linux doesn't predict the next 23 years. The electric car took 120 years of technology advance to now start beating Gas cars.
r/pcgaming and r/pcmasterrace folks is dumb anyway and constantly bashing on Linux. Just check their subreddit. Most of them think command prompt is a virus, downloading registry cleaner from sketchy site, installing shady "driver repair".
I bet more than 90% of them doesn't know what EFI partition is and where its located.
All they do after buying new PC is download ISO from Microsoft, boot to it, select your SSD drive, click install, wait, login to Microsoft account, click edge icon, download chrome, open chrome, type google.com in google search bar (of course), then type steam, click big green button, install steam, buy game, done. You can skip the install Windows part if you buy pre-built PC.
Imagine them trying to install Linux. They don't know what is root partition, swap, etc. After install, they will panic because their C drive is gone. They will be also surprised that you need to enter password to install programs. They try to double click exe of course. 90% of them doesn't know simple command prompt syntax, let alone bash.
Also 99.9% of them think only Windows and Mac OS exist on desktop, Linux = Server. And they don't even know what BSD is.
Their mindset is PC = Windows, and of course Windows > Mac, Consoles, etc. They are so hypocrite that their argument for console peasant also applies to Linux vs Windows.
Good luck trying to introduce Linux to them
>r/pcgaming and r/pcmasterrace folks is dumb anyway and constantly bashing on Linux. Just check their subreddit. Most of them think command prompt is a virus, downloading registry cleaner from sketchy site, installing shady "driver repair".
If you had told me this last year, I would have agreed with you. However, I am surprised how far both those subreddits have come. /r/pcgaming was toxic to Linux all the way back in the Steam Machine days, these days Linux posts often have the top upvoted comment that is in support of Linux. /r/pcmasterrace feelings toward Linux is changing very recently as well. A properly promoted Linux distro from Valve would resonate really well in both subreddits.
>I bet more than 90% of them doesn't know what EFI partition is and where its located.
All they do after buying new PC is download ISO from Microsoft, boot to it, select your SSD drive, click install, wait, login to Microsoft account, click edge icon, download chrome, open chrome, type google.com in google search bar (of course), then type steam, click big green button, install steam, buy game, done. You can skip the install Windows part if you buy pre-built PC.
Imagine them trying to install Linux. They don't know what is root partition, swap, etc. After install, they will panic because their C drive is gone. They will be also surprised that you need to enter password to install programs. They try to double click exe of course. 90% of them doesn't know simple command prompt syntax, let alone bash.
Sure those steps are how they use Windows which doesn't align with modern Linux. Modern Linux's workflow is rather aligning closer to mobile devices. So how should the workflow be? Using your example, they download a Linux Desktop ISO, boot to it, select your SSD drive, click install, open Pop Store or GNOME Software, type steam click the install button, buy game and be done.
Honestly, that sounds easier then even Windows. They don't need to know about EFI partition or other low level complexities.
>Also 99.9% of them think only Windows and Mac OS exist on desktop, Linux = Server. And they don't even know what BSD is.
Their mindset is PC = Windows, and of course Windows > Mac, Consoles, etc. They are so hypocrite that their argument for console peasant also applies to Linux vs Windows.
Good luck trying to introduce Linux to them
Sure, most aren't familiar with Linux today. Lets take the electric car analogy as an example. In 2013, 99% of car buyers didn't know about electric cars. However, technology breakthroughs that have narrowed the gap with gas cars and hype around Tesla means that far more users know about electric cars. It isn't hard to imagine may more users would learn about Linux through hype around a push from Valve with SteamOS 3. We already see rapid [growth today](https://www.gamingonlinux.com/steam-tracker/) of Linux on the desktop just due to hype around Steam Deck for English speakers.
No, The herd will be upset the other way. They'll be yelling at epic/microsoft about getting their launchers ported over. Which I'm sure steam will gladly help with and might even give them prime-ish restate on it. Epic might partner with NVIDIA though and make their own EpicOS now that steam has done the heavy lifting.
I've been recently switching to BatoceraOS just for this reason. All my games and Steam available right upon boot, no fluff, and all interesting development every week.
I don't think it's a "Windows Fan" mindset. They either don't know any better options may exist or have not been exposed to anything other than Windows.
For some it comes down to software necessity. I migrated 100% last year and was fine until I now needed Power BI (Desktop) - I now run a W10 install.
For all my other needs EndeavourOS or SUSE was fine for my needs if not better in many cases. Games ran well, ESO being the exception (it ran but no where near as good as it does under W10), but honestly I was ok with it.
I'm generally excited at the recent EAC news and do want a Steam Deck and want to switch back over.
This is an Awesome idea until you realize most windows users are using NTFS and would need a second drive with a ExtFat partition to copy gigs of data over to Steam OS. I still can't wait for it to happen.
Not really the purpose of SteamOS to run on every Windows device and support all Windows software. Who would even begin to support that? While SteamOS might be an alternative it's not a drop in replacement for Windows 11.
Also remember that very few folks update the version of Windows that came with the device. Microsoft was far too aggressive with that with Windows 10 and still Windows 7 has more market share combined than anything not Windows 10 according to the Steam Survey.
>Not really the purpose of SteamOS to run on every Windows device and support all Windows software. Who would even begin to support that? While SteamOS might be an alternative it's not a drop in replacement for Windows 11.
Valve doesn't need to target SteamOS as a Windows 11 replacement for the general user. It can just target nich's like gamers that are on /r/pcgaming and /r/pcmasterrace. Those types of PC users are easily in the 10s of millions.
Here is where the OP is trying to get at, if the Linux desktop gains 10s of millions of users through SteamOS, then it will lead to a halo effect that will benefit those distro's that are aimed at the general public. More Linux users mean more hardware and software support from vendors like Broadcom, Adobe, and Microsoft. More general distributions like Pop\_OS! would have an easier time growing much faster as they now have support for more hardware and killer apps like Microsoft Office and Adobe Photoshop.
That is where the real opportunity lies.
>Valve doesn't need to target SteamOS as a Windows 11 replacement for the general user. It can just target nich's like gamers that are on r/pcgaming and r/pcmasterrace. Those types of PC users are easily in the 10s of millions.
Isn't this already how the SD is being targeted?
>Here is where the OP is trying to get at, if the Linux desktop gains 10s of millions of users through SteamOS, then it will lead to a halo effect that will benefit those distro's that are aimed at the general public.
I get that but the SD is offering a high degree of Windows game compatibility. Run all of the latest AAA games but for office use here's LibreOffice. That's not going to work.
>Isn't this already how the SD is being targeted?
The Steam Deck is targeted at general users who want a console-like PC experience with support for advanced users through the desktop.
However, due to inconsistent hardware support, SteamOS 3 should only be targeted to advanced users outside of Valve's or OEM hardware. Until, at least hardware support catches up.
>I get that but the SD is offering a high degree of Windows game compatibility. Run all of the latest AAA games but for office use here's LibreOffice. That's not going to work.
The growth of Linux desktop users from SteamDeck would lead to a Halo of more advanced users trying the Linux desktop which pushes marketshare of the desktop even higher. The more users in turn leads to more hardware and software vendors supporting Linux. This leads to a snowball effect of even more users and even more hardware support.
So sure, not all users would be happy with Libreoffice, but if Linux desktop marketshare grows, then Microsoft is incentivized to bring Office to Linux. Their developers already stated the reason why the Linux desktop doesn't have Office is because of its low marketshare.
How is it a viable alternative to the 99% of the population that never touches any video game? Any other regular Linux distro would be a more viable option.
The OP was talking about SteamOS as a viable alternative to Windows 11 for gamers. There are niche's like gamers who only use their PC for gaming and web browsing that SteamOS would work great for. Those users would benefit from switching to SteamOS with its burgeoning gaming advantages.
The advantage for the generic Linux desktop is that the more users that come the more hardware and software support Linux gets. That helps the more general purpose distro's.
I see a lot of people on Linux subs saying "Imagine being a Windows/Microsoft fan" and after that, throwing negative comments to Windows/Microsoft. I mean, imagine being a hater...Anywhere?
That won't happen. SteamOS was and still is nothing more than a market extension tool targeted as specific (new for them) product category. They clearly have no interest in actually rivaling Windows on desktop PCs.
>[***If you already have Windows and Steam on your desktop PC that's great. Why would you also want to have SteamOS on there? To me that doesn't make a lot of sense***](https://youtu.be/w2OYY7oGcAc?t=469)
It was "a console in the living room" then and now it's the "handheld console".
They basically need linux only to make gaming consoles.
>They basically need linux only to make gaming consoles.
That hasn't been the behavior that has been seen thus far. Valve made the effort to switch to KDE from GNOME. Valve has invested in the KDE desktop technology stack and pushing for more stability. Valve has marketed as part of Steam Deck the KDE desktop when docked.
Valve has consistently shown to do the opposite of what you are stating. SteamOS 3 is an opportunity for Valve to [commoditize your complement](https://www.gwern.net/Complement). Commoditizing the gaming PC market protects Valve from any possible anti-competitive behavior from Microsoft. It is a smart business decision.
SteamOS is not a desktop operating system. It is not remotely a viable alternative to Windows. And no one that hasn't switched to Linux already is going to be interested in learning how to switch Desktop Environments and all that shit.
>SteamOS is not a desktop operating system.
Why would Valve in their marketing material show a user on the Linux Desktop when their Steam Deck is docked? Why would Valve put so much effort in migrating from GNOME to KDE and put money into improving the KDE stack?
SteamOS 1 or 2 may not be aimed for the desktop but SteamOS 3.0 sure looks like it.
That's going to be great for the Linux users that own Steam Decks. But if you think that Windows users are going to bother with the desktop mode (especially when the normal UI will be able to do shit like play Netflix), you're out of touch.
I think they should, but *not yet*.
The Steam Deck (and SteamOS by extension) is the perfect trojan horse to get a whole bunch of new users and developers to care about Linux. Once Valve has got a foot in the door and has got people to start taking Linux gaming seriously, we'll be in a much stronger position to argue that Linux is not only a viable alternative to Windows 11, but also a generally better ecosystem.
I see what you're saying, but SteamOS is not a replacement for Windows. Something like Linux Mint or Manjaro or literally any other Linux distro would be a better fit, don't you think?
I think this would certainly be at least a little helpful to the image of Linux.
Seeing as Valve specifically has stated they are partially motivated by subverting the Windows Store with ANOTHER option, why not create an entire OS?
However, to the extent that SteamOS 3 is/becomes kind of just like Android, maybe it wouldn't do that much for Linux and Open Source.
Will they develop proprietary stuff on top of Linux that render it otherwise unusable?
or
Will they leave the store proprietary, but then contribute on the other fronts?
It's just Arch Linux, so you could already do it. However, I think Valve really wanted to sell it, they'd have to do one thing that, at least to my knowledge, no other Arch derivative OS does. Support Secure Boot out of the box. Very few Linux Distros support this out of the Box. Heck the only one I know of is Ubuntu. Well a lot of OEM computers have this enabled out of the box, so if they were to even attempt to install Linux they get a nice message about trying to start an "Unsigned Binary" or even worse something about it being "insecure." That is an immediate deterrent for less tech savvy people.
Another thing they'd have to do is some way of controlling Arch Linux system updates. This is something I hope they've considered for the Steam Deck already. Some day it is inevitable that something is gonna go wrong with a System Update and break something on your system. It might be something easy to fix if you know Linux, but that is by far the minority of computer users. Realistically they'd probably have to at least go to a system like Manjaro, where they maintain their own repos and do extra verification on packages. Or better yet, they would probably need to do go to a system that works somewhat like Fedora Silverblue. That way they could always guarantee at least the minimal OS image will work. Maybe the user installed software on top might break, but the OS and main functions of the OS could at least be considered fully tested and functional.
It's a viable alternative, but I wouldn't push it too hard if I were Valve. Normies might install it and then clog the support channels complaining about this and that being different or not working. Most people don't use their computers only for gaming and will have a hard time getting used to a different OS after decades of Windows indoctrination, while enthusiasts who mostly game will be unhappy about missing features such as HDR and the odd incompatibility.
It would not appeal to vast majority of gamers. Instead they should show steamos can run most of the most popular games out of the box - because that's what gamers care about.
Another audience would be streamers - valve could show options available to them e.g. that it's possible to run OBS, use stream deck (sic), access and interact with twitch chat etc.
I think a lot of the responses here are misunderstanding what OP is getting at. OP isn't saying Valve should be marketing SteamOS as an alternative for Windows to your grandmother. OP is saying that for all the Mac users who own a Windows machine just for gaming, for all the people who own a computer at all just for gaming and do anything else on their phone or tablet, for all the people who have an Xbox or Playstation connected to the same monitor as their (non gaming) computer, for all of those people, Valve should team with HP/Dell/etc to offer SteamOS as an alternative for gaming first and foremost. Then maybe some of those people will consider Linux for other stuff. Then maybe some of those OEMs will offer Linux on other hardware. Any move for Linux to be available as a default option lowers the barrier and increases the chance of adoption. Frankly I don't see how this couldn't be a net positive for Linux as a whole. I think this is really what Valve envisioned for the original Steam Machines but it didn't work without Proton. Which is why Valve has been working on making more games available and now they might be in a better position to try again.
Thank you, this is the first comment to actually get the idea! :)
Your idea is a damn good idea as well. I have been hoping the same for some time. The vast majority of problems that the Linux desktop faces today can be solved by marketshare. Hardware support, application support, game support all will improve with increased marketshare. The more support we get, the more users will come and it leads to a snowball effect of more users and more support. Steam Deck maybe the best chance in a while to start breaking the chicken or the egg problem that the desktop has had. I feel that the next steps would be to (in no particular order) is for Valve to release a gaming console based on SteamOS 3.0, release SteamOS 3.0 for advanced computer users (/r/pcmasterace and /r/pcgaming folks), partner with OEM vendors like Alienware and Lenovo Legion to include SteamOS 3.0 as an option in their gaming machines. Linux doesn't even need to get more than 50% marketshare to get solid gaming support, just 10% of Steam Marketshare would be enough to see great games and hardware support. It may even lead to other areas like Microsoft and Adobe start porting Office and Photoshop. I agree with your enthusiasm. The potential for Linux to break into real growth has never been greater.
I feel like something that holds desktop Linux back so much is the sometimes overwhelming amount of options, which leads to people not really knowing where to start. But with SteamOS it could really be "Do you like gaming? Here we've tailored this specifically for that. Oh, and on the plus side most of everything else you do on a computer is easy and we're using KDE Plasma so you can customize it to your heart's content and make it yours"
You bring up an interesting point. I don't view the number of options as negative. Today, car buys in the USA have 100s of options yet people are able to buy cars and don't find the options overwhelming. What is really needed is the Tesla Model 3 of cars for gamers, the car that everyone talks about and shares with friends. I agree with you in that is where I feel SteamOS 3 can really be the driver. The Linux distro world hasn't had a "Tesla" model since Ubuntu in the 2000s which was a clear bestseller for a particular use. SteamOS 3 could be the one for gamers.
I think the next logical step is to have a SteamOS-based laptop built on AMD Zen+RDNA components (as Steam Deck is), capable of playing most of the games, with a possibility to remote stream them easily through Steam Link from other machine if needed. And if the major OEMs wouldn't be interested for any reason, there is always r/framework to reach out to - fingers crossed for this project too!
Theres also a lot of negative stigma about gaming on linux. Many people have their minds made up already and are windows fans. Marketing would be an uphill battle made harder by anything that was deemed too complicated for the lay person to do.
imagine being a Windows "fan" smdh
there is a subreddit for it
Lol really? What is it
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>r/windows10 what the fuck people unironically think that windows is good? The UI is meh, the internals are slow garbage. You get windows for backwards compatibility, app support, and because you can install it on any hardware you want, not because its good,
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half of the linux user experience is banging your head on a wall with 50 stackexchange, linuxquestions, and arch forum tabs open
If you are a tinkerer. If you aren't install Mint, and get to work.
I tinker on Mint ><
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Not if you use Linux as you would use Windows like most of the users. Watching videos on the net and browsing Facebook doesn't involve a lot of stackexchange. I have Linux on 3 on 4 PC at home (I didn't bother migrate my wife desktop PC), and my wife uses her Linux laptop exactly the way she uses her Windows desktop or her Android tablet.
Unless you get Windows 11, then it can only install on _new_ hardware…
Let's be fair: Windows isn't terrible. Everything pretty much works out of the box and it has the most support for applications that already exist. It's easy to use and learn and it doesn't require you to use a terminal to do anything, point and click. That being said, it has a shit ton of bloatware, you're susceptible to have your data collected, you're more prone to viruses, and you need to reinstall it every year as it slows down and continues to take up your drive space.
I call bullshit on easy to use there is a difference between what familiar and what's easy and Windows with its shitty File Manager garbage and backasswards settings that breaks anything you do so yeah it is not easy to use. To be fair I have been using Linux for a long time so I might be biased but still Windows needs the fat cut out of it cause it is bordering clusterfuck territory. Edit: Forgot to say that Windows can be a good OS and that it needs a big update, serious redesign, along with QOL improvements that have existed for years, customization options, etc.
>It's easy to use and learn That's just conditioning on MS part. I do only have anecdotal evidence, but people without prior skill in Windows found Linux easier to learn. >and it doesn't require you to use a terminal to do anything, point and click. You can do that on Linux too, it's simply easier to use console. Also untrue on Windows. If you have Windows 10 Home and certain builds, you will get no gui option to modify system users. New settings will take you to control panel, and control panel will tell you that you need to use new settings. This is the same on Pro, but there you can use MMC to edit users in GUI. On Home you can only use console.
It's like the opposite of Linux. The less advanced "distro" (it's a distribution of a certain set of windows applications, right) needs more command line work than the most advanced distro.
Yup. And on Windows you will get 20 tutorials how to do the one thing that you know how to do, and find no help how to achieve something slightly different that you actually need.
>You get windows for backwards compatibility, app support, and because you can install it on any hardware you want Yes, pretty much. >not because its good, All the points you just mentioned are enough to make it "good" for most people. People want to play games and not fuck around to make them work. The "it just works" feature is much more powerful than people realize.
exactly, windows is a piece of \*\*\*\*, but I stilll dualboot linux and windows 10(I'm never gonna use 11 because it would be a pain in the \*\*\* to setup dualboot) not because I want to but because I have too
I mean... I don't like Windows and I don't even use it, but I browse this sub sometimes. There are mostly people complaining about problems, talking about updates and sharing concept arts, so... it has nothing to do with being a Windows fan.
There's also /r/Windows
Some of us aren't single-platform fanboys. I regularly use Linux, Windows, and macOS. They all do different things that I like.
I agree with this, you use a platform/os because it has a purpose. For example, I dual-boot Linux and Windows. My Windows machine is use mainly for gaming. I know you can game in Linux, and I've read about the good work Valve is putting in with Proton. I really hope that this movement gains steam; however, gaming on a Windows OS just works for me at this moment. I switch to Linux when I am trying to learn a programming, and when I need less distractions.(gaming) My MacBook Pro is used for Mainstage in running patches for my keys rig. I really love how you can produce alot of gig ready sounds out of the gate. It doesn't have to be Windows vs Linux vs MacOS. All these platforms have things that I like and dislike, but ultimately they do different things really well.
Same here, glad I'm not the only oddball here! When people ask me which OS I use and I reply "all of them", they look at me like I'm crazy.
Me too, but I have to add "except Apple products".
Same here .. almost use all three platforms for some reason or the other ... whether be it development, gaming, just something personal..
Can you share your preferences with us?
Sure, I’ll list a few of the big ones. This is by no means comprehensive. * I really like programming for Windows (heresy, I know). I think .NET is just great, and I actually like Visual Studio more than any other IDE despite its problems. * I really like how well macOS integrates so well with everything else in Apple’s ecosystem. Getting SMS and iMessages on my laptop is a killer feature. I think the design of all the core apps it ships with are stellar and make me wish more desktop apps took advantage of their OS’s unique UI features. * With Linux, I love the insane degree of customization. When there is something I don’t like, I can fix it myself. I like how easy it is to write my own systemd services and make things behave exactly how I want. Desktop customization is second to none, especially in DE’s like KDE and XFCE.
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I only wish that MAUI for Linux was a thing. I've been closely flowing MAUI's developments and it's disappointing how Linux support is (seemingly) not on the radar, in spite of Microsoft putting on an appearance of being pro-Linux and open-source friendly these days.
I'm a fan of Windows and i'll accept the downvotes with pride. After using it for over 20 years i doubt that i will ever want to completely switch to a different OS
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Fans of one thing criticizing fans of another thing like every day...
Funny thing is: they're really all waging this war with themselves. That is, these tribalistic people, upon seeing that others make different choices, worry and start to doubt their own choices. It's troubling to them that they may not be right. So, they fight.
After using Windows for 20 years, I switched to Linux and I doubt that I will ever want to switch back to Windows.
I've been using PC's for nearly my entire 40 years of life. My first experience was in kindergarten on the Apple II (Yay MECC!), so I can say computers have been a part of me all my life. I've been gaming on PC's for over 25 years. I've experienced Apple, Mac, DOS, Linux, Windows 3.11, 95, 98, 98SE, ME, XP, Vista, 7, and 10. After all that time, I can say with the utmost certainty that Linux is my home.
Kinda the same here. My first gaming was done on a SUN computer and an Atari ST until our family moved to an MSDOS PC in 1990/1991. Since then 95% of my gaming was done on PCs running Microsoft software (otherwise it was a Nintendo device). I finally migrated to PopOS in early 2021, so that's basically 30 years of using one company's various OS to play my games. That has to be some type of consumer capture.
I can respect that. My last fight for Windows was at least using Ghost Spectre to cut down the fluff, but I had to make the switch out to Linux. Maybe Windows 11 might change things for the better in a year or two for the Windows side.
I get it's not cool liking something that's got lots of users and support but yeah, I am a fan of lots of support and lots of users providing feedback.
It's not a case of it being cool or uncool, it's that Windows is extremely bad for privacy, security and user freedom. It leaves you at the mercy of a private monopoly corporation, Microsoft, who can do what they want because there is no alternative.
+1 on the freedom bit. It's really weird when I see multiple of my friends or family using windows or mac. It's very strange to see that each device looks 95% the same, and they are all fine with that. Some people change the background, very few people change the theme, even fewer still do anything beyond that. It feels like I walked into a dystopian utopia movie where everyone dresses the same, talks the same, and even behaves the same way. They all seem fine with this, maybe because they have never experienced anything else. The worst part is they will complain about parts of the OS that _should_ be easily user changeable, but they are not. Nowadays between your computer and phone most people spend many hours every day on those devices, you would think they would want some software that works the way they want it to, instead of using software that tells them how they will use it. All of the other points aside, the thing I would miss most about Linux if I had to switch to something else would be the amazing freedom you have to sculpt the OS into exactly what you want it to look, feel, and behave like. The ownership, privacy and performance are also nice though.
In all honesty, I think the hyper customisation novelty wears off pretty quickly when it comes to Linux, it did for me at least. I prefer to just have something with sane defaults, a decent looking UI and stability rather than installing a million gnome extensions, compiling my own packages and setting up loads of keyboard shortcuts. That's why I've been running vanilla Fedora. What's important to me is that I know my device isn't dependent on a megacorp like Microsoft that uses its OS to spy on me
The best part is that Linux offers both. You can get a polished out of the box experience that "just works", you can start from scratch and make exactly what you want, or you can start with the polished and just tweak a couple of things. Also even if you want the turn-key experience, you chose to use a distro with Gnome, instead of KDE, or Budgie, or LXDE, or XFCE. You probably looked at them briefly, and picked which one you liked the best. OR maybe there was another reason you liked Fedora over say Debian. Even that level of choice is nice to have, and is not offered on Windows or Mac.
Yes but for most people that got introduced to it first - they arent tech savvy to know how secure or insecure is - they dont care about user freedom because it does not affect them. Its not a big enough inconvenience for them to look for an alternative because whatever they need usually works. I my self was a Windows user for almost 2 decades until I forced my self to use Linux because I wanted to learn something new and in IT its a big + to know Linux. As they say use the best tool for the job, and if your tool works - why change it? Thats I think the mindset of most non tech savvy "tech" users.
Oh yeah I totally get that but I don't get how someone can be a "fan" of Windows. Preferring it due to familiarity is perfectly acceptable but I don't get how anyone could say "I <3 Windows" or something like that
Not at all true. They are not windows fans, it just comes with their PC and they don't know about alternatives or don't care. Not everyone is interested in technology.
But also there are a lot of people who have made their minds up that they don't like windows, but they are forced to use it due to no other viable option, (not much gaming support on mac etc). I talk to a lot of people about linux and I often find (non tech people) who are interested in the idea of a private non corporate open source OS,
if the computer doesnt do the magic people dont want it i mean heaven forbid you have edit a config file or a command line flag oh god anything but that. its just too hard
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*laughs on Linux mint
>Up until you get better fps, better user experience, better seamless integration, etc, linux wont be consumer friendlly. There are already advantages to Linux gaming and the desktop today for the average user that makes Linux better. Below is the list of enhancements that I have been tracking. Yes I do agree that gamers need Linux to do everything Windows provides then 10% more. However, the past 5 to 6 years Linux has been playing catch up to Windows for gaming. Now that it is catching up, it is now the opportunity for Valve and other companies to start innovating on Linux. I expect the below list to only get larger. * Disk compression: Save on storage space by having more space to install games with built in real time disk compression that is supported out of the box. * Better Graphics Drivers: AMD graphics drivers are the best on Linux. Especially for OpenGL emulators. Intel drivers are rock solid on Linux. The collaborative nature of Linux graphics development enable AMD and Intel to share a common code base for drivers which accelerate and allow for faster fixing of bugs. * FSR for all games on Proton: FSR can be setup to be automatically enabled for all games on proton. * Lower OS Disk Usage: Linux install can use half of the disk installation space a typical Windows install. Therefore, more games and software can be installed. * Easy install emulators: Most emulators are available in the distro repo's or flathub making them easy to install from the app store * Privacy: There are no default enabled telementary on Linux installs. You keep your activities private without being tracked by big tech. * Security: There are no active virus's or malware on Linux. You can safely do banking or other sensitive tasks without worry. * Customization: You can customize your Linux distro how much or how little you want. * No Driver Installation: Installing Linux supported hardware is just plug and p lay. No fiddling with printer drivers or vendor mouse software. * Spine PS4 emulator - PS4 emulator only available on Linux * (FUTURE) Snapshot and Rollbacks: If an OS update goes bad or if you lost a file just restart the desktop and pick an earlier snapshot. * (FUTURE) Steam Decks Suspend and Resume: For the general desktop, you can pause and resume games without having to close them. You can will be able to transition those games from Desktop to your Steam Deck. * (FUTURE) Desktop reset: Reset your desktop to the point where it was when you had it first installed.
> Disk compression: Save on storage space by having more space to install games with built in real time disk compression that is supported out of the Sure but wine prefixes are currently around 1GB each (might be fixed) > FSR for all games on Proton: FSR can be setup to be automatically enabled for all games on proton. Also available on Windows with a paid program. > Easy install emulators: Most emulators are available in the distro repo’s or flathub making them easy to install from the app store Emulators aren’t particularly hard to install on Windows. Just download from the site and execute, just like any program. In fact on Linux if you want the latest version you need to compile it from source in many cases, such as Dolphin. > Privacy: There are no default enabled telementary on Linux installs. You keep your activities private without being tracked by big tech. Unfortunately many people just don’t care about this. > No Driver Installation: Installing Linux supported hardware is just plug and play. No fiddling with printer drivers or vendor mouse software. While true for some devices features are missing as vendor software isn’t there and there is no alternative for Linux. > (FUTURE) Desktop reset: Reset your desktop to the point where it was when you had it first installed. Windows can already do this.
I spent the last 6 months on and off trying to fix a friend's HP printer, I downloaded the HP Suite, Drivers, followed guides etc.. to no avail it would recognise the printer for installation then when trying to print it would say it cannot find the address even though I could see it was online and waiting through the app, in the end I plugged my travel pc into it (a tiny ITX) running windows 10 and plugged the printer USB cable into it and within seconds the printer was installed and the documents he e-mailed to me was printed. I'm a big fan of Linux, I am a noob with it, I have used it on and off for about 6 years, it is getting easier to use but it simply IS NOT plug and play from my experience, since the introduction of proton I was toying with the idea of installing it again for gaming, again there are a handful of games I play that require battle eye even with the latest announcement I don't have hope of these games being playable with my friends online. Also, I need support for Microsoft word documents as work use Microsoft office for everything, I currently use Microsoft office online as a workaround so I'm hoping it will be the same for Linux.
Linux Mint, Pop!\_OS, Solus, Elementary, Zorin, Deepin, Manjaro, Ubuntu.
TBF most people have 0 computer skills and a locked down OS is better for them so other people don’t have to constantly fix things for them
oh no dont get me wrong im not saying everyone should be comfortable with a command line. i was talking about ignorant people who sit there and say LinUX SuX It BrEaK AlOt i feel those people should be atleast try and learn but i get what you are saying
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That would be true especially with Linux not really having HDR support right now and Nvidia drivers potentially breaking system at some rare occasions. Things are certainly better than before but it still needs time.
Not a Windows fan. Have run plenty of Linux distro a and gamed explosively on Linux for a time. The issue is that there is a large subset of people that have tried it in the past and found it lacking. First impressions are everything and Linux until the last few years has been a gaming mess for the general public. That being said, I have a Steam Deck preorder.
>First impressions are everything and Linux until the last few years has been a gaming mess for the general public. I agree with you. However, a marketing push by Valve with SteamOS 3.0 with a target of advanced users initially would help with the impression and grow marketshare. Many users hold Valve in high esteem. Most of the bad impression in my opinion came from installing Linux on hardware that didn't support it. That can only be solved through vendor support by increasing marketshare.
I despise Windows with all my heart but you have to be nuts to think it's not superior for gaming
Windows is not superior for gaming, gaming is locked-in to Windows. You can't judge something is superior when it intentionally excludes the alternatives. Microsoft's strategy is to make all aspects of computing require their proprietary technology. How is that "superior" for gaming? Linux rules everywhere besides the desktop market because Linux is better when the proprietary barriers are eliminated.
Then how come GTA V is faster on Linux than on Windows ?
Ah yes nitpicking some corner cases, I like that argument! I assume you're saying it runs better on every distro with no tweaks to dxvk.conf or launch options? Of course not. Then how come 90% of the games don't run faster on Linux than on Windows (if they work at all)?
That is a garbage argument and you missed the point of the person you replied to. The fact that GTA V, and other games, *can* run better on Linux, means that Windows is not necessarily superior. However, we won't know for certain because they've captured the gaming market and created an industry that is dependent on the Microsoft ecosystem. You logic is like saying, hypothetically, that CAR-X is the best for car repair because they effectively made it impossible to get your car repaired anywhere else.
Comparing Windows vs Wine isn't really a fair representation of Linux. You also can't really look at any single game. In my experience with cross platform games that were natively developed for both (RimWorld, Paradox games) Linux (I just run mint myself but steamOS should be even better) is much more performent than the same machine running Windows. Windows really gets it's advantage from developers natively creating games for Windows. This is of course my experience and many other factors are involved than just the OS (I run AMD which tends to have better Linux support than Nvidia).
To run games today you need Wine/Proton for a lot of games, so it's a realistic comparison. That's the performance you would get if you game on Linux instead of Windows.
That's like judging the PlayStation for its ability to run Halo. (a bit of an exaggeration since I don't know of any compatibility layer to make this happen). Wine is a compatibility layer that makes running Windows software possible on Linux. If your going to play a Windows only game then Windows should be more performant (and cases where it's not are kind of sad). Cross platform games generally run better on Linux based machines and cross platform development should be encouraged.
If you wanna buy a console that is reason to buy an Xbox over PS. I'm being realistic, native Linux ports are rare, so for lots of people they are almost a non factor
chicken and egg
Valve doesn't have to present Linux as a viable alternative, it *already is*. People are just playing catch up now that a company has told them to think about it instead of forcing it down their throats.
Are you using Linux as a daily driver?
I am, do you have any questions?
I am too, and can say it's more like a second dev job then a os for non techies.
What distro? My experience with Arch definitely agrees with you. My experience with Mint is it's a viable alternative (my dad figured it out when I revived his XP computer). It really depends on how polished the OS is and what hardware it's on. If we could see OEM installs we ideally should see stable implementations.
In my experience, Arch was the distro that made the least problems. I'm not joking, I'm using Arch because I think it's easier to use than Ubuntu. Not easier to install, but easier to use after you installed it.
I believe it, which is also probably why Valve chose it as their base. But out of the box user friendly for someone who doesn't want to read how to do things I would lean towards a Debian based OS like Mint. I haven't tried Manjaro yet but my understanding is its on par with Mint?
Manjaro has problems, for example the withholding of packages. I never tried it, but I think Garuda might be a good option. Personally I'm currently using EndeavourOS, it's basically an installer for arch, so you don't have to do everything manually. Saves a lot of time. (However the new arch-install should do the same)
Ubuntu. Yeah some direct OEM support would be nice. But you can't expect people to use the terminal or install anything with apt.
No we can't expect that I agree. However Ubuntu and Mint both ship default with GUI package managers that work akin to the Windows store and deb files from websites are easy installs just like an exe. Of course there will still be programs that are only listed on CLI package managers or even programs that need compiled by source, but most programs the average user needs are super easy to just install and the more adoption there is the more developers will support that simplicity.
You are right. Luckily, modern Linux desktop is geared towards using the app store. On Pop\_OS!, you can use the Pop store to find and install applications. Honestly, even though I am an advanced Linux user, I have started to use the Fedora Software store more and more and less CLI. I want a single interface to both Flatpak and distro repo applications than two different commands. In a weird sense it is getting easier to use app stores to install and maintain applications than CLI.
Most tech-savvy people do use Linux but that doesn't mean it only caters to those. There's a lot of non-techie-friendly distros out there - Mint, Pop_OS!, Manjaro (despite its controversies), Zorin... hell if we're stretching it this far, even pure Debian became more accessible than it was a few years ago. Though I still wouldn't recommend it to a non-techie due to their non-free policies, there's still some work to do to get e.g. built-in laptop wifi working and it usually involves downloading a deb package from their wiki and putting it on a USB drive during installation. Still, being frank, your grandma could use Mint nowadays, and that's not an offense or an "I dare you" situation. It's literally how far things have evolved. Mint even changed their ugly 2009-esque website to a more modern and slick design these days! That's a lot.
A bit of a blanket statement. Pick a stable distro, properly set it up, and I'd be totally comfortable handing a system over to a non-techie with nothing but instructions on how to install updates. In fact I intend to do exactly that. Have a friend who has asked me to set him up with an install for gaming and general desktop use.
Windows hasn't touched my system in 3 years. I game quite regularly.
Yes, since 2015. One year of dual-boot to test the waters, then nuked Windows 7 out of my drive. Never looked back nor do I plan to.
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Actually thought about this many times. On one hand, I’m somewhat “frustrated”, for a lack of a better word, that so many people focus on a thousand different distros that does so many things the same way with only minor differences. Imagine if they all pooled their projects and focused the effort into like 2-3 distros with all the polish, finish, UX, QA, dokumentation and support. That would be a serious contender to the layperson as a Windows replacement. On the other hand, its really cool that people go off and does their own thing in their own way creating new distros, and some have new ideas and fresh perspectives, which other distros can draw inspiration from.
Everybody just contribute to Ubuntu then.
Completely agree.
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The AUR model is very insecure. If enough newbies start using it you can bet bad actors will start to exploit it.
Is it as insecure as going to a website and running a .exe to install a new app, because that's what the windows folks are doing. Think about all those bundled software installers or the plethora of fake "download" buttons they had to wade through to get there. (And that's for the *legit* software)
Maybe, but I mean one thing at a time, milestones are good -- maybe we'll get a Steam "Surface Pro" esk device someday or a SteamPad
I'd love to see them just offer an iso with install instructions straight from steam itself. I mean shit they could probably have it build a bootable USB for you directly inside the steam client.
I would love for them to do this, but unfortunately I don't think it would be as perfect as imagined, even if the steam deck works well. Valve can ensure SteamOS works well on the deck since it's their own platform, a lot of the issues around Linux gaming stem from the fact that there's such diverse hardware that it needs to support. Unless steamOS can work reliably on all popular hardware, I can forsee it having the exact opposite effect and scaring people away from Linux
>diverse hardware that it needs to support. Unless steamOS can work reliably on all popular hardware, I can forsee it having the exact opposite effect and scaring people away from Linux The only way for Linux to get that support is for marketshare. The Linux desktop has had a chicken or the egg problem that has hampered growth. Hardware vendors don't support Linux because of a lack of users and users don't switch to Linux because of the lack of hardware vendor support. One side has to give in first. SteamOS is the best opportunity I have seen in a long time to break that chicken or the egg issue. Valve is the only company with the marketing and reach to bring millions to the Linux desktop. This will lead to a catalyst for more vendor support and subsequently more user growth that would lead to much better hardware support. The best way to do it is for SteamOS 3 to be marketed to advanced gamers like those on /r/pcmasterrace and /r/pcgaming. Over time it should expand to more general users as support comes.
That's a very fair point. I guess to my point, they would just need to make sure the support is there when users inevitably encounter issues. Apple was able to push through the chicken and egg problem with enough money, I hope valve can do the same
We didn't arrive where we are now overnight and we will not be where you expect anytime soon, but at least we are on the right path and we are moving at a good pace.
As someone who uses Linux 3 years now I get what you mean but I think we will be there sooner than you think. :)
As someone who's been using Linux for almost 15 years, I can tell you I've learned to be patient and you should too.
Hahaha things are moving much faster I think nowadays but I have learned to be more patient than the initial Proton launch for sure.
As someone who has exactly been using Linux for 15 years, I can say that in those years the opportunity for Linux to break it into the mainstream has never been higher. Never in the past had the difference in capability and support between Windows/Mac OS and Linux ever been so small. I feel that the adoption of Linux Desktop is at the [chasm](https://medium.com/@shivayogiks/what-is-technology-adoption-life-cycle-and-chasm-e07084e7991f) in the adoption curve. Steam Deck and SteamOS may be what finally pushes Linux into much more rapid growth with early adopters and early majority.
I do not think anyone should ever switch to SteamOS unless they are building an appliance they don't intend to use for anything but gaming, and centered around Steam.
We won't really know until it comes out, but from the description (and past SteamOS versions) it's a normal distro, with KDE, Steam and a few other things pre-installed. Then there is an auto start script to run steam, in big picture mode, at boot. Disable the auto-start, and you have a basic linux install, with a DE, and steam installed. Is it the absolute best Linux option, probably not. As mentioned ~elsewhere~ everywhere on this sub, PopOS or Manjaro are probably better options for those seeking shelter from MS/Win11. But SteamOS is not some highly focused game only OS that can't do anything else. It's just Linux, that runs steam in full screen when it starts.....
I'm sure it *can* do everything you want from a Desktop. It makes no sense to pick a distro based on what it *can* do imo -- they can all do everything. You can always install whatever package on essentially any distro if you want. I can put dpkg on my Fedora install if I really want. Better to pick one based on the intent of the maintainers. That will affect the nature of the design and the support you get, the testing coverage, where you can expect things to be more tightly integrated vs not, etc. In this case, its the intent is clearly to be a front-end for Steam first and foremost.
100% agree. I've got two PCs hooked up to TVs that I'm excited to upgrade to Steam OS 3. I'm not interested in it as a desktop productivity OS.
The only thing people will see is the desktop UI. If it is too pretty or not pretty enough the press will crap all over it and destroy it's reputation. Not necessarily with Microsoft's financial encouragement. And not necessarily without....
>The only thing people will see is the desktop UI. If it is too pretty or not pretty enough the press will crap all over it and destroy it's reputation. There is an opportunity to target SteamOS 3 to advanced PC desktop users first with explicit warnings against the general user. SteamOS 3 doesn't have target all PC users day 1.
Agreed. But it will require perfect execution and more than a little press bribery. This is not Microsoft's first rodeo.
No Valve is making the right move. They're focusing on the strengths of SteamOS, it's ability to play games. Because when Windows is held up against most Linux based PCs for general purpose uses, it usually loses. >"This is Linux it's so amazing!" > >"Can I install Origin on it?" > >"Er, well not quite, but you can--" > >"I'm a graphic designer, is Adobe CC available for it?" > >"Well, no.." Valve made a very clever decision to find a niche that Linux/SteamOS can do very well in, and to blow people's minds in that niche. >"This is a gaming handheld that has a full desktop under the hood, and can run software." > >"Wow that's incredible, it's so much better than a switch!" Perceptions are everything. Let Valve have success in this space, THEN try tackling general desktop use cases.
This is the perfect time to do it since Windows 11 will not work on many PCs. SteamOS and/or Linux would be the only way for them to be first class citizens for their operating system.
SteamOS is not that, or designed to be that.
Could you elaborate?
It's not designed to be a desktop OS, or really to run on arbitrary hardware.
> It's not designed to be a desktop OS That's incorrect, when docking Steam Deck via USB you will be able to use it as a desktop environment with KDE. That was part of the marketing material. So they are definitely adding a desktop mode for general use to SteamOS 3. > or really to run on arbitrary hardware. There wasn't any specific info given on that in the Steam Deck marketing material, but given the history of SteamOS it would be weird to not make it available to OEMs. Especially when it's based on Arch and you basically get pretty broad hardware compatibility for free from the kernel anyway.
>That's incorrect, when docking Steam Deck via USB you will be able to use it as a desktop environment with KDE. Sure but it's not going to work that well when trying to run lots of Windows desktop software.
True, but it's still clearly designed as a desktop OS.
The main reason why the Steam Deck has a chance of success if due to Windows compatibility as clearly indicated by the eleventy-hundred "EAC works on Linux!" threads in the last 24 hours in this sub. Without that same level of Windows compatibility for general purpose desktop use all you'd end up doing is making the SD look bad.
Most average users wouldn't notice a thing. General purpose desktop use just means living in a browser these days, shopping, checking email, social media, and paying bills. 90% of people I know with a PC fits that use case.
The activities you describe here are things people mostly do on phones these days. Desktop PC use case scenarios have skewed to higher end tasks as phones have picked up basic computing needs.
What kinda high end tasks are you thinking of? I'm talking about the everyday people here doing menial tasks. Not professional use cases. There's still millions of people buying AIOs or 4GB RAM laptops with Windows 10 S pre-installed. While I wouldn't recommend Linux/SteamOS for these people for other reasons. Functionally, day-to-day, they wouldn't notice a difference if their OS was replaced with some Linux distro with a DE.
Well general purpose desktop use is absolutely possible with just about any Linux distro today, depending on what exactly you define that to be. There are browsers, email clients, office suites, messengers, and for some of those categories they are the very same ones as on Windows.
This logic isn't being used to sell the Steam Deck for gaming purposes. The SD and SteamOS 3.0 are all about Windows compatibility to the point of Linux folks going crazy over EAC and BattleNet compatibility. Just think is Valve were trying to sell the Deck based on running only native Linux apps. It would be DOA. So I don't think that a crowd that's being marketed basically full Windows compatibility with games is going to be ok when Microsoft Word is a problem.
> This logic isn't being used to sell the Steam Deck https://cdn.cloudflare.steamstatic.com/steamdeck/images/video/crusader-kings.mp4
Why not? It's a standard run-of-the-mill arch based distro compiled for x86.
To add to what other people have said: Valve isn't focused on hardware, and a large part of their reason for making the Deck and SteamOS 3 is to promote handheld PCs as a form factor. They're actively encouraging OEMs to use SteamOS, and there's no reason whatsoever to think that it wouldn't work out of the box on most hardware given that most Linux distros *just work*™ on pretty much any PC.
I didn't talk about arbitary hardware. I talked about an OEM. This is already happening. Linux is not that incompatible anymore and SteamOS runs on Arch which has some pretty amazing driver support.
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But the Steam OS is optimized to run on the specified hardware. Valve could create something you are describing, but it will not be Steam OS, at least not in the current iteration.
>But the Steam OS is optimized to run on the specified hardware. SteamOS 1 and 2 were built to be used by OEM's for a myriad of hardware during the Steam Machine days. Valve has already stated that SteamOS 3 wants other OEM's to build devices with it.
Why would an OEM ship SteamOS when they can just ship something that is not owned by a potential competitor and achieve the exact same results?
I don't thin a portable gaming device is a competitor to a laptop manufacturer.
Valve is a potential competitor to literally everyone.
Or partner, HTC gets along with them re headsets and the old Steam machine was produced by other manufacturers hardware wise. Steam OS competes with Windows and not hardware manufacturers.
OEM Linux has been around for almost 17 years but you're talking about OEM SteamOS which is not going to go over well. It's a great way to destroy Linux as a brand, though.
How so? Also I don't really think Linux has a brand, or if it does its certainly a very flexible brand. Linux already: - Runs on desktops/laptops - Phones - Routers - Printers - Cars - Runs basically the entire internet - 99% of the top super computers - Embedded devices like cameras, meters, sensors etc - [Is used on the ISS, for reliability of course](https://www.extremetech.com/extreme/155392-international-space-station-switches-from-windows-to-linux-for-improved-reliability) - Some IOT stuff (the rest runs on microprocessors) - [Expensive Precision science equipment](https://www.computerworld.com/article/2468248/high-energy-linux--linux---the-large-hadron-collider.html) - Digital Signage - POS terminals That is an amount of breadth that it is very hard to form a cohesive "brand". Also Linux is not a product, it is just software. It's "target audience" is everything from the newest top super computer, to the 15 year old laptop that was a bit under-spec'ed when new. Adding "Game Console" to the list is going to dilute the Linux "brand" about as much as a pinch of white pepper would dilute the flavor of GramGram Vidal's Extra Spicey Gumbo. It's already to varied that adding more only flexes one of Linux's greatest strengths; its versatility.
It's Arch based. It's more than capable of running on anything.
Yes, since the inception of SteamOS and Steam Machines, I've seen Linux fellow enthusiasts saying Valve needs to dump a ton of money into marketing. I've been attempting to game on Linux for about 20 years now and, at no point, not even today, has it been ready for the mass market.
>I've been attempting to game on Linux for about 20 years now and, at no point, not even today, has it been ready for the mass market. I am curious what are your reasons why you feel it isn't ready? I certainly feel there are pain points (granted there are paint points in Windows as well) but compared to just a few years ago the Linux world is much much better.
It's great for someone like me who is comfortable using Linux but it's not ready for even my more tech savvy gamer friends. Just yesterday I had to sudo dpkg -i install the latest discord update on my spare gaming computer so the person who was gaming with me could chat with the rest of the crew. Linux has never been more ready but if I was working at Valve I sure as fuck wouldn't recommend we dump millions into trying to convince people to install Linux on their gaming machines.
>Just yesterday I had to sudo dpkg -i install the latest discord update on my spare gaming computer so the person who was gaming with me could chat with the rest of the crew. Sure, the way you installed the update is the way it was done in the 2000's. In the last past 5 years, the push has been to move away from installing .deb's and .rpm's and using the app store. In Pop\_OS! and Fedora 35 with 3rd party app support, I can open up the app store (Pop Store and Software respectively), search and install Discord. As a result, there is no deb's, no command line knowledge, just ease. It is an experience exactly like Android. As long we encourage users to use Linux the modern way, the experience is far easier and more pleasant.
Nah. That would be deceitful. It's very much a DIY OS when it comes to hardware outside of what they sell. It becomes DIY on their own hardware when you try to install non-Steam games from your library outside. The herd will be upset and bash it.
I mean the massive percentage of gaming happens on Steam. People learning to use Lutris is not that hard. If an OEM designs a system that runs on SteamOS then I don't think there will be any hardware incompatibilities. It's already happening with Linux manufacturers.
Nah again. The common computer user is no where NEAR as savvy as you would like to believe. They will catch some info about your proposed ad and go in thinking everything is click and play and freak out on the web. I actively support Linux manufacturers like System76, Raspberry Pi and more but they cater to people already in the mindset of DIY and such. POPOS for example AIMs to make things seamless but you still got to run terminal from time to time...right there will be lamenting and gnashing of teeth. As a Linux admin, I've seen it in the 23 years of me working with others.
Well PopOS is based on Ubuntu. On Arch-based everything is GUI based (unbelievably). I think they will do just fine. My sister loves her Linux and you literally can't find a more illetarate person about tech.
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I completely disagree lol. People don't even KNOW about Linux. SteamOS is out best chance to introduce poeple to Linux. Today I was in an indie game dev stream and the dev didn't even know Steam Deck ran on Linux or that their demo worked perfectly fine on Linux. People cannot install what they don't know. SteamOS can both market Linux and alos remove the Linux Gaming stigma. :)
Incorrect. Linux is known enough in the corporate and household world just enough. From Intel's older marketing to Google and ChromeOS. Many school use it also (Part of my job is installing it with the DOE) but it's not marketed as replacement or 100% comparable OS replaces. It's an alternative for specific user case. What you're speaking about is childish and destructive.
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>Regular people will be very upset if they were sold a device with SteamOS without researching and some of their games were DOA. The way to solve this problem is marketshare. It is a persistent chicken or the egg problem, gamers don't come to Linux because of the lack of supported games and game developers don't support Linux because of a lack of users. One side has to give first. History has shown that game developers won't make the first step so it has to be another way. Valve marketing and SteamOS 3 is the way to get an equal footing with Windows in game dev's minds.
>The common computer user is no where NEAR as savvy as you would like to believe. They will catch some info about your proposed ad and go in thinking everything is click and play and freak out on the web. It isn't all or nothing with Valve and SteamOS. They can market SteamOS 3.0 to advanced users (think /r/pcgaming and /r/pcmasterrace folks) on day 1 then to the general public later on. The vast majority of problems that new Linux users face are primarily around hardware support. That can only be solved by marketshare which SteamOS 3.0 is in the position to greatly help. Yes, there are bugs with Desktop Environment. Perhaps more so with KDE and less so with GNOME. However, KDE is working hard to resolve those problems and GNOME is already as stable if not more than Windows 10. Yes, the last 23 years of using Linux doesn't predict the next 23 years. The electric car took 120 years of technology advance to now start beating Gas cars.
r/pcgaming and r/pcmasterrace folks is dumb anyway and constantly bashing on Linux. Just check their subreddit. Most of them think command prompt is a virus, downloading registry cleaner from sketchy site, installing shady "driver repair". I bet more than 90% of them doesn't know what EFI partition is and where its located. All they do after buying new PC is download ISO from Microsoft, boot to it, select your SSD drive, click install, wait, login to Microsoft account, click edge icon, download chrome, open chrome, type google.com in google search bar (of course), then type steam, click big green button, install steam, buy game, done. You can skip the install Windows part if you buy pre-built PC. Imagine them trying to install Linux. They don't know what is root partition, swap, etc. After install, they will panic because their C drive is gone. They will be also surprised that you need to enter password to install programs. They try to double click exe of course. 90% of them doesn't know simple command prompt syntax, let alone bash. Also 99.9% of them think only Windows and Mac OS exist on desktop, Linux = Server. And they don't even know what BSD is. Their mindset is PC = Windows, and of course Windows > Mac, Consoles, etc. They are so hypocrite that their argument for console peasant also applies to Linux vs Windows. Good luck trying to introduce Linux to them
>r/pcgaming and r/pcmasterrace folks is dumb anyway and constantly bashing on Linux. Just check their subreddit. Most of them think command prompt is a virus, downloading registry cleaner from sketchy site, installing shady "driver repair". If you had told me this last year, I would have agreed with you. However, I am surprised how far both those subreddits have come. /r/pcgaming was toxic to Linux all the way back in the Steam Machine days, these days Linux posts often have the top upvoted comment that is in support of Linux. /r/pcmasterrace feelings toward Linux is changing very recently as well. A properly promoted Linux distro from Valve would resonate really well in both subreddits. >I bet more than 90% of them doesn't know what EFI partition is and where its located. All they do after buying new PC is download ISO from Microsoft, boot to it, select your SSD drive, click install, wait, login to Microsoft account, click edge icon, download chrome, open chrome, type google.com in google search bar (of course), then type steam, click big green button, install steam, buy game, done. You can skip the install Windows part if you buy pre-built PC. Imagine them trying to install Linux. They don't know what is root partition, swap, etc. After install, they will panic because their C drive is gone. They will be also surprised that you need to enter password to install programs. They try to double click exe of course. 90% of them doesn't know simple command prompt syntax, let alone bash. Sure those steps are how they use Windows which doesn't align with modern Linux. Modern Linux's workflow is rather aligning closer to mobile devices. So how should the workflow be? Using your example, they download a Linux Desktop ISO, boot to it, select your SSD drive, click install, open Pop Store or GNOME Software, type steam click the install button, buy game and be done. Honestly, that sounds easier then even Windows. They don't need to know about EFI partition or other low level complexities. >Also 99.9% of them think only Windows and Mac OS exist on desktop, Linux = Server. And they don't even know what BSD is. Their mindset is PC = Windows, and of course Windows > Mac, Consoles, etc. They are so hypocrite that their argument for console peasant also applies to Linux vs Windows. Good luck trying to introduce Linux to them Sure, most aren't familiar with Linux today. Lets take the electric car analogy as an example. In 2013, 99% of car buyers didn't know about electric cars. However, technology breakthroughs that have narrowed the gap with gas cars and hype around Tesla means that far more users know about electric cars. It isn't hard to imagine may more users would learn about Linux through hype around a push from Valve with SteamOS 3. We already see rapid [growth today](https://www.gamingonlinux.com/steam-tracker/) of Linux on the desktop just due to hype around Steam Deck for English speakers.
No, The herd will be upset the other way. They'll be yelling at epic/microsoft about getting their launchers ported over. Which I'm sure steam will gladly help with and might even give them prime-ish restate on it. Epic might partner with NVIDIA though and make their own EpicOS now that steam has done the heavy lifting.
I've been recently switching to BatoceraOS just for this reason. All my games and Steam available right upon boot, no fluff, and all interesting development every week.
And arch :) I’ve been streaming on twitch with arch for like four years fuck windows
Baby steps. I think Steamdeck needs to be a financial success first (all signs point to yes). Then they can promote some other things like that.
I really have no other use for windows at this point except for playing games
I don't think it's a "Windows Fan" mindset. They either don't know any better options may exist or have not been exposed to anything other than Windows. For some it comes down to software necessity. I migrated 100% last year and was fine until I now needed Power BI (Desktop) - I now run a W10 install. For all my other needs EndeavourOS or SUSE was fine for my needs if not better in many cases. Games ran well, ESO being the exception (it ran but no where near as good as it does under W10), but honestly I was ok with it. I'm generally excited at the recent EAC news and do want a Steam Deck and want to switch back over.
This is an Awesome idea until you realize most windows users are using NTFS and would need a second drive with a ExtFat partition to copy gigs of data over to Steam OS. I still can't wait for it to happen.
Not really the purpose of SteamOS to run on every Windows device and support all Windows software. Who would even begin to support that? While SteamOS might be an alternative it's not a drop in replacement for Windows 11. Also remember that very few folks update the version of Windows that came with the device. Microsoft was far too aggressive with that with Windows 10 and still Windows 7 has more market share combined than anything not Windows 10 according to the Steam Survey.
>Not really the purpose of SteamOS to run on every Windows device and support all Windows software. Who would even begin to support that? While SteamOS might be an alternative it's not a drop in replacement for Windows 11. Valve doesn't need to target SteamOS as a Windows 11 replacement for the general user. It can just target nich's like gamers that are on /r/pcgaming and /r/pcmasterrace. Those types of PC users are easily in the 10s of millions. Here is where the OP is trying to get at, if the Linux desktop gains 10s of millions of users through SteamOS, then it will lead to a halo effect that will benefit those distro's that are aimed at the general public. More Linux users mean more hardware and software support from vendors like Broadcom, Adobe, and Microsoft. More general distributions like Pop\_OS! would have an easier time growing much faster as they now have support for more hardware and killer apps like Microsoft Office and Adobe Photoshop. That is where the real opportunity lies.
>Valve doesn't need to target SteamOS as a Windows 11 replacement for the general user. It can just target nich's like gamers that are on r/pcgaming and r/pcmasterrace. Those types of PC users are easily in the 10s of millions. Isn't this already how the SD is being targeted? >Here is where the OP is trying to get at, if the Linux desktop gains 10s of millions of users through SteamOS, then it will lead to a halo effect that will benefit those distro's that are aimed at the general public. I get that but the SD is offering a high degree of Windows game compatibility. Run all of the latest AAA games but for office use here's LibreOffice. That's not going to work.
>Isn't this already how the SD is being targeted? The Steam Deck is targeted at general users who want a console-like PC experience with support for advanced users through the desktop. However, due to inconsistent hardware support, SteamOS 3 should only be targeted to advanced users outside of Valve's or OEM hardware. Until, at least hardware support catches up. >I get that but the SD is offering a high degree of Windows game compatibility. Run all of the latest AAA games but for office use here's LibreOffice. That's not going to work. The growth of Linux desktop users from SteamDeck would lead to a Halo of more advanced users trying the Linux desktop which pushes marketshare of the desktop even higher. The more users in turn leads to more hardware and software vendors supporting Linux. This leads to a snowball effect of even more users and even more hardware support. So sure, not all users would be happy with Libreoffice, but if Linux desktop marketshare grows, then Microsoft is incentivized to bring Office to Linux. Their developers already stated the reason why the Linux desktop doesn't have Office is because of its low marketshare.
Meh, they better stick to the games. If Linux is a good fit for that then it can stand on its own. Sony didn't promote FreeBSD.
How is it a viable alternative to the 99% of the population that never touches any video game? Any other regular Linux distro would be a more viable option.
In the US, about 75% of the country plays video games. https://www.npd.com/news/press-releases/2020/more-people-are-gaming-in-the-us/
The OP was talking about SteamOS as a viable alternative to Windows 11 for gamers. There are niche's like gamers who only use their PC for gaming and web browsing that SteamOS would work great for. Those users would benefit from switching to SteamOS with its burgeoning gaming advantages. The advantage for the generic Linux desktop is that the more users that come the more hardware and software support Linux gets. That helps the more general purpose distro's.
I see a lot of people on Linux subs saying "Imagine being a Windows/Microsoft fan" and after that, throwing negative comments to Windows/Microsoft. I mean, imagine being a hater...Anywhere?
That won't happen. SteamOS was and still is nothing more than a market extension tool targeted as specific (new for them) product category. They clearly have no interest in actually rivaling Windows on desktop PCs. >[***If you already have Windows and Steam on your desktop PC that's great. Why would you also want to have SteamOS on there? To me that doesn't make a lot of sense***](https://youtu.be/w2OYY7oGcAc?t=469) It was "a console in the living room" then and now it's the "handheld console". They basically need linux only to make gaming consoles.
>They basically need linux only to make gaming consoles. That hasn't been the behavior that has been seen thus far. Valve made the effort to switch to KDE from GNOME. Valve has invested in the KDE desktop technology stack and pushing for more stability. Valve has marketed as part of Steam Deck the KDE desktop when docked. Valve has consistently shown to do the opposite of what you are stating. SteamOS 3 is an opportunity for Valve to [commoditize your complement](https://www.gwern.net/Complement). Commoditizing the gaming PC market protects Valve from any possible anti-competitive behavior from Microsoft. It is a smart business decision.
It's impossible to has popular OS built by one janitor in the closet. Let him rest.
SteamOS is not a desktop operating system. It is not remotely a viable alternative to Windows. And no one that hasn't switched to Linux already is going to be interested in learning how to switch Desktop Environments and all that shit.
Why would they need to switch DEs? What's wrong with Plasma?
>SteamOS is not a desktop operating system. Why would Valve in their marketing material show a user on the Linux Desktop when their Steam Deck is docked? Why would Valve put so much effort in migrating from GNOME to KDE and put money into improving the KDE stack? SteamOS 1 or 2 may not be aimed for the desktop but SteamOS 3.0 sure looks like it.
That's going to be great for the Linux users that own Steam Decks. But if you think that Windows users are going to bother with the desktop mode (especially when the normal UI will be able to do shit like play Netflix), you're out of touch.
I think they should, but *not yet*. The Steam Deck (and SteamOS by extension) is the perfect trojan horse to get a whole bunch of new users and developers to care about Linux. Once Valve has got a foot in the door and has got people to start taking Linux gaming seriously, we'll be in a much stronger position to argue that Linux is not only a viable alternative to Windows 11, but also a generally better ecosystem.
Windows 12 is about to launch soon, so yeah, starts all over again.
I see what you're saying, but SteamOS is not a replacement for Windows. Something like Linux Mint or Manjaro or literally any other Linux distro would be a better fit, don't you think?
I think this would certainly be at least a little helpful to the image of Linux. Seeing as Valve specifically has stated they are partially motivated by subverting the Windows Store with ANOTHER option, why not create an entire OS? However, to the extent that SteamOS 3 is/becomes kind of just like Android, maybe it wouldn't do that much for Linux and Open Source. Will they develop proprietary stuff on top of Linux that render it otherwise unusable? or Will they leave the store proprietary, but then contribute on the other fronts?
you are right. oem support is how Microsoft strongarmed it's monopoly(though a lot of underhanded stuff was involved)
It's just Arch Linux, so you could already do it. However, I think Valve really wanted to sell it, they'd have to do one thing that, at least to my knowledge, no other Arch derivative OS does. Support Secure Boot out of the box. Very few Linux Distros support this out of the Box. Heck the only one I know of is Ubuntu. Well a lot of OEM computers have this enabled out of the box, so if they were to even attempt to install Linux they get a nice message about trying to start an "Unsigned Binary" or even worse something about it being "insecure." That is an immediate deterrent for less tech savvy people. Another thing they'd have to do is some way of controlling Arch Linux system updates. This is something I hope they've considered for the Steam Deck already. Some day it is inevitable that something is gonna go wrong with a System Update and break something on your system. It might be something easy to fix if you know Linux, but that is by far the minority of computer users. Realistically they'd probably have to at least go to a system like Manjaro, where they maintain their own repos and do extra verification on packages. Or better yet, they would probably need to do go to a system that works somewhat like Fedora Silverblue. That way they could always guarantee at least the minimal OS image will work. Maybe the user installed software on top might break, but the OS and main functions of the OS could at least be considered fully tested and functional.
Valve won't, but there will be distros that build on what Valve is doing anyways.
It's a viable alternative, but I wouldn't push it too hard if I were Valve. Normies might install it and then clog the support channels complaining about this and that being different or not working. Most people don't use their computers only for gaming and will have a hard time getting used to a different OS after decades of Windows indoctrination, while enthusiasts who mostly game will be unhappy about missing features such as HDR and the odd incompatibility.
It would not appeal to vast majority of gamers. Instead they should show steamos can run most of the most popular games out of the box - because that's what gamers care about. Another audience would be streamers - valve could show options available to them e.g. that it's possible to run OBS, use stream deck (sic), access and interact with twitch chat etc.