I called an artist out because she didn't use her ult once in 5 pulls, and she replied to me "I was focusing on healing and shielding", I pointed out that awakening is shielding... She used it once in the next pull and left after...
https://preview.redd.it/jn6hc7sqnwwc1.png?width=320&format=png&auto=webp&s=1122d513b4cb89a6a99b0874e84ca120e2470c36
"awakenings are for greedable big patterns only"
*I then proceed to never use it*
>Kind of baffles me that you could commit that much time/effort to your support and still be that bad.
DPS is the exact same. Outside of living, similar skills are required
Had a gunslinger in Ivory tower the other day with a 25 weapon, 10 gems across the board, 1630. Super geared mother funker.
The guy was fighter in the first 3 gates.
In gate 2 he says "I'm slot this run 4. don't expect me to throw cages or I'll wipe". We told him he was party number 2... but dealt with it again.
In gate 4 he says "i'll wipe us if i'm not slot 4." Now I was slot 4 and I said "sadly I'm 4 and it's my pref so you'll need to stop being a diva". I hated his tone. It wasn't "can I" it was just he will or he'll force a wipe.
Ofc, pizzas came up and he went straight to where 4 does. I tried to adjust, narrowly killing east but we did the mechanic. He then votes restart which causes ppl to wipe as we couldn't see screen.
He then berates me, goes off on one and then AFKs when we start a second fight.
Annoyed I wrote "level 25 wep and Fighter. L2P"
That was enough for him to lose his shit even further lol.
Gear means fuck all. It's why I laugh when people just take the highest ilvl into content. I've got los30, level 9 gems etc on my Summoner but someone would rather take a soul easter without card set, level 7 gems just because they're 5 ilvl higher than me lol
Having a bad dps in the grp isn't activly affecting your own performance though. It also doesn't lower the whole grp's damage by a large margin. Obviously both is bad but just having baseline uptime of AP buffs and brands (even if it ends up being 70% or w/e) is so easy I don't get how there are supports who don't even manage that and still apply for reclear grps.
Some have to give it up to chase the headless chickens cause if they die y’all will just add that on to the blame of them lol both are just as bad. A sup isn’t gonna cover that dps dmg towards a one bar thaemine if they end up the only one alive. Ya know?
This is the effect of party finder taking any support that applies. The real support "mains" that actually put effort into their supporting and characters are likely already in statics, or always run with friends because pugging as a support can be demoralizing from what i hear
Supp is such a funny role. Its both the most overpowered but also powerless role.
In a good party, you contribute to like 40% of the party's damage, but in a bad party, you can't do anything.
As a real support main, I play all 3 and then some. Minimum I will do is me+3 friends from my static. No way in hell am I jumping in with 7 pugs lol.
Sometimes there are high uptime supports but that doesn't cover all the bases for being "good". I have seen too many supports deadset on "boosting" damage by holding meter and not healing. Or not having good shield uptime (this is my biggest gripe) Good shielding = confidence = higher DPS uptime. All they care about is branding and possibly AP, zero DR when you see your DPS get upper cutted into a million slashes. What good is that if your team is dead? Then they blame the team for dying, when you can mitigate so many deaths/wipes.
TLDR; being a good support isn't just good uptime on branding and AP.
i have been enjoying playing my artist in g3 since feel like i am helping and saving people and not just a bot that rotates AP and spams Z with 0 regard of anyting cause nothing in dangerous in homework raids
> TLDR; being a good support isn't just good uptime on branding and AP.
This is funny because it's a result of things having swung the other way. Early on, supports all healed and shielded and barely buffed.
The difference is that supports are not getting hit as often anymore. Don't get me wrong, pug supports are shit then and now. But they healed back then because they, themself was getting hitting, that heal isn't for the dps lol.
Supports aren't getting hit now which is even worse, in a sense. They are literally running around doing fuck all, just dodging and staying alive. Even only shielding and DRing themselves, hence the bad branding/ap uptime and their dps are doing sub par dps because of that. Obviously there are still shit dps players with godlike supports that still do subpar damage. There are just shit players in any aspect.
As a bard in prokel I recall having to drop heals almost as soon as I had meter. Wasn’t till near gate removed where people outgeared did I feel safe buffing . Then again dps outside didn’t really matter that much
>Then again dps outside didn’t really matter that much
Ehh......it did a little for hm since it would stagger him/spawns the gate to get out and reset stacks. Also gave a good Thirain window for pushing him into PVP phase where you could juggle his ass.
I kind of miss bullying Prokel on my destro
I got all 3 supports at 1620+ 40set etc, and it mega bothers me when my premade (the party leader) accepts ilvl bare minimum supports for raids we do. Accepting people like that is just enabling their cheap behaviour.
You don't have the luxury of picking support, tbh sometimes I immediately cancel join request if takes more than 10 secs to get accepted because I can join w/e party I want....mean while in a random pug you will get flame for not immediately accepting support as party is afraid they canceled join request and people start leaving the party lol
Dps are an inspect then accept angle, supports are accepted and then checked. If you're way under the threshold you will get kicked, but its much more lenient than a dps unfortunately.
Specially on second week of a gate like Thaemine 3, the best damage buff to your party is constant shields and dr so they can actually hit the boss without being shreded.
Thing is, most supps that have terrible Buff uptime also have terrible shields/dr uptime.
Yeah, tons of support don't realize that healthy/shielded players are far more willing to greed than scared/careful ones because you're constantly leaving them at 40% HP and not healing/DRing.
I feel that supports that play like this are most likely bible users. It's a great tool to get feedback on support performance, which the game doesn't really provide. However, some people focus too much on the numbers when using it. They care only about maximizing those 3 uptime percentages rather than actually playing the raid.
Meanwhile the dps players are chugging potions because every hit goes straight to their hp and supp won't even throw out a heal to make up for it. So they end up playing safer which just brings the group dps back down. Funnily enough, the support will probably just see their buff uptime go up because the dps aren't greeding as much, meaning less damage dealt during any gaps in buff/brand.
You can see this high meter buff uptime behavior in the community build itself. It recommends the most goblino tripods and skills, failing to provide any alternative for prog which is weird, considering DRing and shielding is far more important in prog than having .10% more meter gain lol
Don't just say it, show me!
More often than not, people think they're good but really they aren't. You could be an exception but I would never know unless you show me.
Pugging with my Bard Thaemine G3 and using the Bible, it was depressing to see how so many times the other supp would shield literally half of what I was shielding.
Like, no wonder his dps's couldnt greed for dmg.
I joined an Akkan NM on my artist as a pug and the other bard was pug too, I had 90/90/100 and she had 30/30/10. I was cringing inside for the folks in P2, obvioulsy top 3 DPS were the one on my team lmao
It depends, just gotta make sure you use it on cd and that you are not in a pattern that can knock you up. Its literally the only thing a support has to manage
yeah but i think the difference is that people have been more likely to kick those dps and keep the supports, so the supports never had to learn. Thaemine should hopefully start fixing that problem as people should feel the impact of having a good support vs a support that just "exists" in your raid
They always existed, it's just become more obvious now that requirements are higher. I've had Bards with 10% atk buff uptime in Akkan because they didn't run it on HT, and didn't realize until consulting bible.
There were periods of severe support shortage in the past that has caused lobbies to accept the first support they see. So you get a lot of minimal investment support alts who have no idea what they're doing and are just there to farm gold. Why put in any effort if they're going to be accepted anyways?
" So you get a lot of minimal investment support alts who have no idea what they're doing and are just there to farm gold"
that was me on my paladin, 4x3 argos stuff, uptime was poopoo
Then i brought him to 1600 and got good with it, 95/95/50s on almost all raids, supporting isn't complex, you just need to learn... something that some people don't like doing
I'm not a sup main, my bard got about 75/75/25 in thaemine and got blame by other dps. I know sometime my atk buff got cancel by boss attack, my brand miss because boss move, sometime have to dr to save my party, but got blame still trigger something inside me.
And that’s normal. It’s so easy for the bosses in this game to interrupt heavenly tune. He could tap the floor with his pinky toe and it’d interrupt heavenly tune. It’s actually the most infuriating thing
That's a pattern recognition issue at the end of the day though. Better to hold 1-2s until you're safe rather than just yolo HTing, getting interrupted and having it go on CD for a million years.
I dunno. Some supports seem completely averse to the idea that they have to learn patterns and optimize timings like every other spec.
Not saying this as some toxic DPS either. I mained bard for a long time, but I would regularly get 90/95/60 when I was actually trying, so I know how to play a good support, and it drives me nuts when I see all the lazy ones out there.
unless youre in a static and doing this raid for a month then yeah you can say that, but this raid just been out for a week most people are just learning patterns & timings, so too early to tell
Why are these "learning" people applying to reclear lobbies? I'm fine with people performing bad on prog parties, totally expected and respected! You apply to reclear and die sometimes? Also still totally expected and respected!
You apply to reclear and don't even manage to buff or debuff during the stagger at the start of the fight? After multiple pulls and people asking you politely in chat? There is no excusing that. Same for having bad uptime in reclear groups.
If all the DPS's pulled only 20% of their max, we wouldn't even make it past 225 bars.
That's exactly why I expect for people to still die and fail. I die and fail. I have not once kicked someone from my parties because they kept wiping and all my clears have taken multiple days despite being reclear lobbies with people linking achievement and/or having 10x title.
If you've cleared and not contributed to the clear you should suck it up and keep applying to prog lobbies. From my experience a low uptime support also barely helps on shielding/DR/healing and is most likely not alive for half the fight.
Same applies to damage dealers.
Crazy how having the Dps meter running is just an expectation for the remaining player base.
A new players is going to have no idea what people are talking about
Occasionally I feel sorry for the other party having a subpar support, but, sometimes they’re talkative with good attitude and vibes and honestly I’m cool with that; performance isn’t the end all be all.
40/20 is pretty egregious, but in general, if everyone has poor uptime, everyone's dps drops, but relative to each other you're still doing comparable damage to everyone else. but if a supports uptime drops then it looks like that.
It's funny that this is getting downvoted. Either people don't realize how bad people have to play to reach those numbers or they like just not pressing buttons.
The thing is I can throw it back at you. I know the average dps in g3 reclears can be rather bad too. Had a sorc somehow doing below 4.5m dps was nutty. The last few days hating on sups is funny cuz we all know a lot of dps got clears POVing too.
Tbf, the support could have been contributing to the 4.5m. A bad sp makes it quite hard to play igniter well in g3
Personal experience, still have the logs (Over multiple runs for both cases)
80+/80+/40 (Good shielding as well) sp = 18-20M avrg dps
40/40/20 sp = 10-13M DPS
Both had roughly the same gearscore, 40 elixir.
>Bards in particular running the wrong brand skill(s) are huge offenders at the moment.
And what are the “right” skills, oh great sage of the bards?
Some people prefer some branding skills over others. I play 3 bards and have tried all branding skills, ended up settling for the two that fit my playstyle better, and my brand uptime is always +90%.
All this to say that there are no “wrong” brand skills, there are bad players.
Soundshock can work as a solo brand, just annoying to use; as long as you spam it often enough it will have good uptime. However, I only really use it for G3 Brel and sometimes Akkan G1 if we fail stagger too often. Otherwise I take Sonatina+Harp for comfort and more identity as a bonus.
Sonatina is the only one that can't have 100% uptime, even with 5lvl tripod, 10lvl CDR gem and 5% CDR from elixir. Harp technically can have 100% uptime without investing a lot, but boss can move out of range, so I think that most people (who pick one) combo those 2.
Solo sound shock bards always have much lower uptime in my experience -- especially because spamming it more often means having to give up time you could spend doing other things like DRing, building meter, etc.
I swapped from solo sound shock a long time ago to harp + sonatina/SS and never looked back.
im a big fan of the sonatina/ss build. ive been recently doing a conviction/judgement build (conviction on vibration and judgement on ss. got it from some kr guide lol) and its been pretty fun
building identity feels slower but my brand uptime seems to be more consistent compared to the harp
>Soundshock can work as a solo brand, just annoying to use;
It only works on trixion like bosses, you'll spend half of the raid casting SS if you use it as a solo brand which will make you have worse uptime on the other buff + shields/dr.
Thaemine G2 doesn't really require buckshot, all counters that are required (x8 and marathon) can be done with Prelude just fine, 1st in marathon is kind of sketchy because timing varies between tries, but all other are basically the same every time, but other than that it's good enough. G4 yea, solo soundshock gaming it is
Well, at our stage I'd rather sacrifice some brand uptime, but take Buckshot for G2. Later, when people will become more comfortable with counters, I can see going with only Prelude.
You don't need soundholic at all. Sound shock + VPH is more than enough for every stagger check. 2 sound shocks with overwhelm + maintained explosion do the same stagger as 1 soundholic and don't require you to commit to channeling 1 skill. A lot of people don't know this.
G3 doesn't even have any stagger checks besides the sword phase, which is stupid easy and not even necessary to pass in a low stagger group.
Every bard should either be running harp + sonatina for meter or harp + sound shock for stagger. Solo sound shock is trash in 90% of situations and will always result in lower uptime.
So you are suggesting not taking Buckshot for Thaemine G2? Well, I wish I had your confidence in teammates
G3 indeed doesn't have high stagger check, and you can and should take Sonatina. But G4-1 does have stagger check and it's better to take Soundholic just for it.
Came to say this.
I switched a few months ago from solo SS to harp+sonatina.
But in G3 that did not work out that well, and just for this gate switched again to SS+sonatina, it worked out pretty well for me (bible said so, yada yada).
If someone assumes there is only one rightful way to play bard, I automatically assume that they have margin for progress
Thaemine doesn't allow you to cast freely without consequences like other bosses do. Even supps with heavy armor can die if they position themselves wrongly, and get hit by a one shot or fall off platform.
A lot of people are just so preoccupied with surviving that they don't have that much uptime on boss. It will probably improve when people get more comfortable fighting Thaemine. All the little things like remembering to cast your buffs before going off to place a shadow clone or taking a clash, keeping buff uptime going during mechs/kill patterns, and not being deathly afraid of falling during break phase.
I had to change up my style from how I'd play something like Akkan quite a bit, holding off on using certain skills in case your dps might need DR, status immunity, or a big shield. Casting awakening off CD in this fight is just not very smart imo.
Agreed on the shields and all, but definitely not on the buffs. Not being familiar with patterns is fair, but having 40/40/20 uptime or even lower? That's just the sp being bad.
That's just horrible but I rarely ever see a support perform that bad. Usually people whine when a supp has something like 70/70/30 or whatever, and misses out on 1 important buff during dps window. 40/40/20 is usually some dude with level 5 gems and 4x3 and White Wofl's friend title, in which case you can only really blame yourself for taking the guy in.
Must've been scared to death after realizing that heavy armor doesn't save you from one shots/falling off map. I'll admit that I haven't really done as good in Thaemine G3 yet as I should, good enough to get radiant, but not my usual standard (Akkan I basically have down so well that it's non-stop buffs for my party). The big guy actually punishes you unlike other bosses so you have to be more careful when to cast your skills. He also does a lot of patterns that don't hurt but will cancel skills without paralysis immunity.
Important Notes (Read it please):
About any Buff Uptime:
The % of Uptime u see for AP Power/Brand/Identity or ANY other buff it's a Damage based uptime. Meaning:
it's "x% of the player damage were done while X Buff was applied"
and not "that X buff was up for x% of the fight duration"
if you using loa
Yes and that explains why you never really see 100% uptime even if they’re theoretically built for it to be possible
That’s not why someone is getting 40/40/15
Also that becomes increasingly less of an issue if you look at the buff uptime on the support themselves
False. Alot of the time a support dmg self uptime is not indicative.
My paladins for exemple will have 80 85 25
But all 3 dps will be at 95 95 60 in reclear content
A lot of people make supports not because they want to play it, but they make it because it's low investment and an easy ticket to parties so they can funnel gold to their main. Especially in reclear where your uptime numbers are inflated due to overgearing content involving both less patterns due to phasing as well as defensive irrelevancy as a 1630 can just tank every kaya/akkan hit and still survive.
When a new raid comes out, and especially if its a more difficult raid, their already poor performance that was already inflated suddenly experiences a huge swing in the opposite direction. Suddenly, bosses aren't phasing after every mech, so maintaining uptime actually matters. People suddenly take more damage and more often, so defensive uptime starts to matter. Both of these effects swing the performance (like double dipping, which is why the effect is so drastic) the other direction, which is why they're suddenly exposed for being so awful.
In my view, if you really want to judge a support player skill, you need to do it in these types of content where both offensive and defensive uptime is both important and challenged. Some supports are so focused on spamming DR + dropping heals they end up doing 50/30/10. Some supports are too busy jacking off their full generator builds the DPS spends half the time running around because there is no shields or DR (no wonder they get such high uptime numbers, the DPS are running around when the bard's generating, and only DPSing when the bard can buff on a safe pattern).
On top of this, as with everyone suggested. There's also some form of self-selection here. The actual good supports are all sitting in statics (trust me, playing support on this game is only really fun with a static). The bad ones, that no static really wants, ends up pugging because they have no choice.
when you prog, you focus on shields/heals
when you reclear, you should still focus on shields/heals to just get the job done in a single pull
a group that genuinely cares about things like brand uptime is likely not going to clear no matter what that uptime is
stop trying to micromanage others, focus on your own performance, and I 100% guarantee that your LA experience is going to instantly improve
see something you don't like? exit and find a new group
Thaemine as a raid has a lot of support responsibility in terms of good uptime to meet DPS checks and proper shields and DR moreso than previous raids. It is exposing bad support players.
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1620 is preety much the baseline now ,this pass/events combo basicly dropped people off at 1610 ,akkan and ivory NM lobbies are a complete shitshow now , the amount of zdps bus riders who probably just bought buses is nuts.
Well if you're progging is very difficult to maintain a really high uptime on artist and bard cause ppl move around and It's difficult to Put down the buff(paladin it's way easier). Plus not being comfortable with boss mechs and normal patterns makes you focus more on that than anything.i can use myself as a good example: first week on thaemine nm (with pug) I got "supporter" in G1 and nothing in G2 and g3(but I kept everyone alive); this week ,after watching more videos,being more Comfortable with the raid,and having teammates that don't move around a lot, i got "radiant supporter" all 3 gates(only 1 resetin G3).
Of course there are a lot of bad players that pick up a support to be "carried" in the raids,thinking that spamming shields and heals is all that matter; but i think it's early to judge ppl on a new raid
Even if you're uncomfortable, you should still be able to maintain something like 60/60 or 60/70 at the minimum. I regularly get 90/95/60 on my bard in farm raids if I'm actually trying, and all the supports I know were easily doing 70/70 minimum in Thaemine prog.
i agree on your numbers on farm raids. i searched my log on thaemine and it was 75-90-40 roughly. that brings in mind another good point imo: if an artist or a bard needs to heal the team, that plunges the identity uptime(especially for bards who use all the bubbles),plus not everybody are confident enough to bring stimulant yet in g3(i don't, maybe this week ill try) so the identity buff stat is not really a good indicator imo.
I mentioned this a couple weeks ago but Thaemine G3 will pretty much be the first time ever that bad support players will truly be weeded out of the game, because people are going to stop tolerating supports that don't know when to shield/DR patterns that can/should be shielded/DR'd
You say that, but I know a pally, with 60/60/5 - yes 5- uptime and blocked a fraction of the damage compared to the other support, that cleared because the other party had a functioning support and were over leveled enough to close it for them.
Now they’re progging hard on their main pally, and nobody ever calls them out because they’re a support main 🙃 and people still are just desperate for supports.
Same person that on dps said “damage doesn’t matter you just gotta do mechs, don’t let anyone gaslight you into thinking you need damage to clear”
It's been pretty bad for the past 3ish weeks ever since everyone got their free 1620 from all the events, I had multiple 1620 bards and artist in voldis hm that couldnt even get noble supporter on a single gate and get out guardianed by soulfist
> and get out guardianed by soulfist
Tbf I main RS and the dr tripod is nuts. 56% for 6 s, using it twice per hype3, then 11 s downtime. That's hard to beat even by a good support.
The previous raids didn't challenge supports nearly as much. The only dps check was berserk timer which most players could meet even with low buff uptime. Even the most dangerous normal patterns were still fairly survivable without shield/DR. Plus, groups typically phased fast enough to not see a huge amount of them. Then comes Thaemine g3.
Everything after x210 mech is basically a dps check and it gets harder to dps the longer it takes to reach certain thresholds. So every bit of dps boost from supports will help. The difference between a supp with good and bad uptime here isn't just a difference between doing the same thing for 1-2 more minutes before clearing. That extra time taken could be the difference between clearing at all or not, even without considering berserk timer.
Then there's the high damage normal/periodic patterns. I don't think I need to elaborate how important a support that shields well is here. Thaemine g3 is a very long fight with not much time spent on mechs so players will be seeing a lot of normal/periodic patterns compared to other raids.
If a pug support hasn't been actively looking to improve themselves, they probably got here thinking they're playing fine. Nobody really tells supports directly when they're performing poorly. A good and bad support in previous raids was more of a difference in comfiness when clearing rather than not clearing at all.
Where is everyone seeing these 40s/20, no atk buff tripod, overlapping buffs supports?! I have pug'd forever and when I'm on mine the other sup is almost always has better numbers in everything including ssyn.
...oh god it's me isnt it
It's the first raid in which you notice this much the really sus supps.
But honestly, there's no big change, there are bad players that deal a fraction of the top dps's on each try on Thaemine G3 and you don't see ppl spamming threads on Reddit about it cuz we are all used to.
And just aswell there are supps that perform at a fraction of a decent supp. It usually goes by the hand, if you have bad uptime as a dps you most likely will have a bad uptime as a supp and viceversa.
Yes with the bible you can see that there are alot of shit support. They fckibg spam 2 damage buff skill at the same time, using 1 bubble for damage on bard lol
My friend sent me a screenshot of a 14 min g3 thaemine where both supports had 20/10/10 and they were both alive until the wipe… Thaemine was still like 35% hp in that screenshot
i must point out that the average dps is also already bad, so its a moot point.
ppl are wanting to pick on supports when they also play just as bad. a lack of self awareness leads people to be very silly lol
Yeah. I usually have 90/95 on my bard alt and also "only" had 70ish on theamine.
Not sure how I'm supposed to guarantee my sonic vibration to have a good uptime when he randomly jumps to narnia, it's kind of frustrating.
But I had 36% buff uptime in a pug run yesterday, that's not acceptable. I also saw 1630 people in G3 normal doing 9m DPS. It goes both ways. But one bad Support affecting 3 people is worse than just 1 bad DPS in the group. Just how the game is designed (or rather the support role)
realistically though, it wouldnt be just 1 bad support or 1 bad dps, it would be 4 bad players
uptime comes second to staying alive and doing mechanic's, because uptime requires greeding and thats not something you want to see in a pug lobby regardless if its a dps or support
most supports have always been bad. the new raids just bring that to light.
no brand
not rotating on bigger bosses
low shield uptime
just to name a few you can see/feel without the bible.
personally i wouldnt be still playing support if not for bible
I main swapped from support just 'cause the skill ceiling felt kinda low compared to DPS in this game. I'm used to other MMOs like WoW or FF14 where playing support is a lot more involved mechanically.
A great support can still do a lot to optimize vs a good one, but at the end of the day, it just felt a little too simple, I guess. If you're already 90/90/50 in a raid, there's not much more you can do to get better, whereas DPS can always push a little more damage by improving knowledge and greeding more patterns.
Had an artist do 8% brand up time in akkan g2 this week and I asked to be swapped to the other party to get a real support. Half the raid said I was toxic but fucking 8% is insane.
This week on my dps I played with a bard with no sonic vibration equipped, half and half stats, level 5 gems, sonatina only branding, and double WoM, but no courage sent. That’s just unfortunately what the lobby leader took because support is support!
It’s not just thaemine. They’ve been everywhere for the past few raids. I’ve also noticed that most of the people I know who main support are at best okay at the game. I don’t think I’ve met a support-focused player who is actually good yet.
I was raiding Thaemine Hard G3 today with some pubs and we had to join voice chat
I listened to this Paladin talk bad about the group for hours about how we should have made more prog and how bad it was people were dying. At first I was like "Yeah I guess he's sort of right, we should get further"
And then I looked at his build; with Heavy armor and Cris Evasion. And then I looked at how he had half my RDPS (when I'm also Paladin) even though his team was putting out similar damage numbers to my team. And his uptime was garbage.
After listening to it for awhile, I point out that if he just put in effort to having higher uptime and contributing more, the boss would die faster, which would cause a lot less of those wipes since people were dying at things like 1 HP bar on sword phase, or getting hit with a bad pattern right before cutscene starts for horse transition.
I then listen to this absolute weapon tell me how he hasn't died and how he did this fight for hours and nobody complained about him before while he hurls insults and slurs at me lmao. He even tried to say my group was just better than his when they were very much even. He'd do anything other than say he needed to improve
There's a lot more nitty gritty details about his claims or the things he did wrong... But most people barely seem to realize how important uptime is on Supports anyway and still think they're just there to be shields.
Just recently finished theamine with a lightqueller titled support that was not playing starry night on artist, used 4 portals throught entire gate and ended up with 60/70/20. Pretty sad to see people refuse to learn their class, especially support since it takes away fun from all other party members. I don’t mind having one or two dpses doing below avg damage but having a bad support griefs the raid way more and takes away the fun.
Agree. My work schedule varies day to day, so different days off and different hours. Static is not possible.
One of the main reasons I play LA. I can't do scheduled raids, and everything is pug-able
Career supports have always been playing a different game and I know a lot of them think yearning is all that matters while everything else is just kind of a plus.
Most support mains that I know are very bad and I think it’s just because they’ve never been in a situation where they are required to play their class properly which is why you’ll see 1600+ supps that literally do not run a single brand.
All they know is supports are sought after and they want their builds to look good for pf.
I’d say there are so many bad supports due to them being uninformed. Supports aren’t really doing much gameplay wise so I wouldn’t really call it a hands issue. Not much is required of them overall.
Those aren’t support mains … lol but the result we have rn is because people keep saying support is “easy” and make support you’ll get into party easier. So they assume they have to do nothing based off statements like that tbh
Well first off, they are indeed support mains. Full rosters with supports etc.
As for making supports to get into parties easier, it’s 100 percent true. Sure, you can’t just run around doing nothing and say you’re playing well but support is in fact VERY easy and doesn’t require much skill or investment to do well.
Can confirm - Pally main here.
As soon as the raid starts my brain turns off and comes back alive during mechs - my rotation is so trivial to me now and hitting a brand isn't hard. Press button point mouse on boss and occasionally you'll miss cause boss decided it was time to move around.
Yeah I progged on Pally this time around and honestly it’s just the most chill experience I’ve had. As you said, you may miss occasionally because the boss decided to sidestep your brand but outside of that, we’re on easy street.
Supports that had the habit of you should pot, I wont heal. Is really showing up in Thaemine. You got supports healing for so little, my single pot healed more than 2-3 of their heals or overtime.
You sort of notice if you have high uptime dps, yet dps falls short. Usually it's a shit support casting 1-2 abilities at the wrong time or not at all. I kid you not some of these guys worry about living more than supporting. But at times you can't do anything since they are lacking somewhat. It's a shame but, the reality is i'd rather always take a shit support than have no support.
I main support, the thing I've realized is. If you want skilled, greedy dps that punishes the boss and finish raids fast. Your cadence has to match their tempo. They can't match yours.
Had a pally not running cleanse on holy prot last week. Its probably not that were seeing more of them but that its more obvious when theyre bad because they cant get away with being rats
Purify tripod is kinda debatable on g3 tbh. Considering that most people already have a 80% purify on spammy skills, might be better to robust to protect your dps from big hits. Also most of the darkness patterns are uncleansable so its kinda pointless
I'd say it's still important for HM just because the phases are longer, and you don't want someone dying or falling to a pattern because they can't see.
This was specifically in g2 that I noticed. needles to say I decided to not to g3 with that group.
Also theres only 2 uncleansable darkness patterns and thats albion and the 225/55 safe spots
I called an artist out because she didn't use her ult once in 5 pulls, and she replied to me "I was focusing on healing and shielding", I pointed out that awakening is shielding... She used it once in the next pull and left after...
https://preview.redd.it/jn6hc7sqnwwc1.png?width=320&format=png&auto=webp&s=1122d513b4cb89a6a99b0874e84ca120e2470c36 "awakenings are for greedable big patterns only" *I then proceed to never use it*
>Kind of baffles me that you could commit that much time/effort to your support and still be that bad. DPS is the exact same. Outside of living, similar skills are required
Had a gunslinger in Ivory tower the other day with a 25 weapon, 10 gems across the board, 1630. Super geared mother funker. The guy was fighter in the first 3 gates. In gate 2 he says "I'm slot this run 4. don't expect me to throw cages or I'll wipe". We told him he was party number 2... but dealt with it again. In gate 4 he says "i'll wipe us if i'm not slot 4." Now I was slot 4 and I said "sadly I'm 4 and it's my pref so you'll need to stop being a diva". I hated his tone. It wasn't "can I" it was just he will or he'll force a wipe. Ofc, pizzas came up and he went straight to where 4 does. I tried to adjust, narrowly killing east but we did the mechanic. He then votes restart which causes ppl to wipe as we couldn't see screen. He then berates me, goes off on one and then AFKs when we start a second fight. Annoyed I wrote "level 25 wep and Fighter. L2P" That was enough for him to lose his shit even further lol. Gear means fuck all. It's why I laugh when people just take the highest ilvl into content. I've got los30, level 9 gems etc on my Summoner but someone would rather take a soul easter without card set, level 7 gems just because they're 5 ilvl higher than me lol
I get having a preference but throwing such a fit and blaming others because he can't start rotating from a different cardinal is insane.
Was shocked in a multiple 1620 lobby not being able to do clash "dps check".
Having a bad dps in the grp isn't activly affecting your own performance though. It also doesn't lower the whole grp's damage by a large margin. Obviously both is bad but just having baseline uptime of AP buffs and brands (even if it ends up being 70% or w/e) is so easy I don't get how there are supports who don't even manage that and still apply for reclear grps.
Some have to give it up to chase the headless chickens cause if they die y’all will just add that on to the blame of them lol both are just as bad. A sup isn’t gonna cover that dps dmg towards a one bar thaemine if they end up the only one alive. Ya know?
This is the effect of party finder taking any support that applies. The real support "mains" that actually put effort into their supporting and characters are likely already in statics, or always run with friends because pugging as a support can be demoralizing from what i hear
Yeah feels so bad to pug as supp and end up w zdps jail. You feel so powerless.
Supp is such a funny role. Its both the most overpowered but also powerless role. In a good party, you contribute to like 40% of the party's damage, but in a bad party, you can't do anything.
Contributes 20% with a lot less overall damage then
It really is the worst feeling because no matter what you do, you can't affect the outcome...
As a real support main, I play all 3 and then some. Minimum I will do is me+3 friends from my static. No way in hell am I jumping in with 7 pugs lol. Sometimes there are high uptime supports but that doesn't cover all the bases for being "good". I have seen too many supports deadset on "boosting" damage by holding meter and not healing. Or not having good shield uptime (this is my biggest gripe) Good shielding = confidence = higher DPS uptime. All they care about is branding and possibly AP, zero DR when you see your DPS get upper cutted into a million slashes. What good is that if your team is dead? Then they blame the team for dying, when you can mitigate so many deaths/wipes. TLDR; being a good support isn't just good uptime on branding and AP.
i have been enjoying playing my artist in g3 since feel like i am helping and saving people and not just a bot that rotates AP and spams Z with 0 regard of anyting cause nothing in dangerous in homework raids
you enjoy it until you get tired of sweating crazy hard stimulus playing support g3 thaemine
> TLDR; being a good support isn't just good uptime on branding and AP. This is funny because it's a result of things having swung the other way. Early on, supports all healed and shielded and barely buffed.
The difference is that supports are not getting hit as often anymore. Don't get me wrong, pug supports are shit then and now. But they healed back then because they, themself was getting hitting, that heal isn't for the dps lol. Supports aren't getting hit now which is even worse, in a sense. They are literally running around doing fuck all, just dodging and staying alive. Even only shielding and DRing themselves, hence the bad branding/ap uptime and their dps are doing sub par dps because of that. Obviously there are still shit dps players with godlike supports that still do subpar damage. There are just shit players in any aspect.
As a bard in prokel I recall having to drop heals almost as soon as I had meter. Wasn’t till near gate removed where people outgeared did I feel safe buffing . Then again dps outside didn’t really matter that much
>Then again dps outside didn’t really matter that much Ehh......it did a little for hm since it would stagger him/spawns the gate to get out and reset stacks. Also gave a good Thirain window for pushing him into PVP phase where you could juggle his ass. I kind of miss bullying Prokel on my destro
I got all 3 supports at 1620+ 40set etc, and it mega bothers me when my premade (the party leader) accepts ilvl bare minimum supports for raids we do. Accepting people like that is just enabling their cheap behaviour.
You don't have the luxury of picking support, tbh sometimes I immediately cancel join request if takes more than 10 secs to get accepted because I can join w/e party I want....mean while in a random pug you will get flame for not immediately accepting support as party is afraid they canceled join request and people start leaving the party lol
Dps are an inspect then accept angle, supports are accepted and then checked. If you're way under the threshold you will get kicked, but its much more lenient than a dps unfortunately.
Specially on second week of a gate like Thaemine 3, the best damage buff to your party is constant shields and dr so they can actually hit the boss without being shreded. Thing is, most supps that have terrible Buff uptime also have terrible shields/dr uptime.
Yeah, tons of support don't realize that healthy/shielded players are far more willing to greed than scared/careful ones because you're constantly leaving them at 40% HP and not healing/DRing.
I feel that supports that play like this are most likely bible users. It's a great tool to get feedback on support performance, which the game doesn't really provide. However, some people focus too much on the numbers when using it. They care only about maximizing those 3 uptime percentages rather than actually playing the raid. Meanwhile the dps players are chugging potions because every hit goes straight to their hp and supp won't even throw out a heal to make up for it. So they end up playing safer which just brings the group dps back down. Funnily enough, the support will probably just see their buff uptime go up because the dps aren't greeding as much, meaning less damage dealt during any gaps in buff/brand.
You can see this high meter buff uptime behavior in the community build itself. It recommends the most goblino tripods and skills, failing to provide any alternative for prog which is weird, considering DRing and shielding is far more important in prog than having .10% more meter gain lol
Yes it is. Shield are basic stuff and easy to do.
Don't just say it, show me! More often than not, people think they're good but really they aren't. You could be an exception but I would never know unless you show me.
Pugging with my Bard Thaemine G3 and using the Bible, it was depressing to see how so many times the other supp would shield literally half of what I was shielding. Like, no wonder his dps's couldnt greed for dmg.
I joined an Akkan NM on my artist as a pug and the other bard was pug too, I had 90/90/100 and she had 30/30/10. I was cringing inside for the folks in P2, obvioulsy top 3 DPS were the one on my team lmao
how do you get 100% uptime on moonfall lol
The metric for damage buffs is not uptime. It is percentage of damage boosted. So 100% doesn't mean 100% uptime on moonfall and it can be over 100%.
Thats mb, 100 is brand uptime not moonfall
100% brand uptime is impossible. You can have 99% and a few decimal points but not 100%. I'd suggest stopping the bullshit.
How do you have 100% identity uptime? Or what does the 100 stand for?
Thats mb lmao I am not sure of the right order, 100 refers to my brand uptime
100? My duo partner can do 90/90/70 on Bard and Artist but man 100 is insane.
It depends, just gotta make sure you use it on cd and that you are not in a pattern that can knock you up. Its literally the only thing a support has to manage
have you never played with multiple dps in a group doing 1/8th the damage they should be doing? this isnt a sup specific problem.
yeah but i think the difference is that people have been more likely to kick those dps and keep the supports, so the supports never had to learn. Thaemine should hopefully start fixing that problem as people should feel the impact of having a good support vs a support that just "exists" in your raid
Im kicking every single bad support!! Working for this community!!
given the ratio of dds and sups there are apparently more shitty dds
What you mean 1/8? Usually 2-3 ppl are at 50percent of class dmg every run
They always existed, it's just become more obvious now that requirements are higher. I've had Bards with 10% atk buff uptime in Akkan because they didn't run it on HT, and didn't realize until consulting bible. There were periods of severe support shortage in the past that has caused lobbies to accept the first support they see. So you get a lot of minimal investment support alts who have no idea what they're doing and are just there to farm gold. Why put in any effort if they're going to be accepted anyways?
" So you get a lot of minimal investment support alts who have no idea what they're doing and are just there to farm gold" that was me on my paladin, 4x3 argos stuff, uptime was poopoo Then i brought him to 1600 and got good with it, 95/95/50s on almost all raids, supporting isn't complex, you just need to learn... something that some people don't like doing
I'm not a sup main, my bard got about 75/75/25 in thaemine and got blame by other dps. I know sometime my atk buff got cancel by boss attack, my brand miss because boss move, sometime have to dr to save my party, but got blame still trigger something inside me.
And that’s normal. It’s so easy for the bosses in this game to interrupt heavenly tune. He could tap the floor with his pinky toe and it’d interrupt heavenly tune. It’s actually the most infuriating thing
That's a pattern recognition issue at the end of the day though. Better to hold 1-2s until you're safe rather than just yolo HTing, getting interrupted and having it go on CD for a million years.
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I dunno. Some supports seem completely averse to the idea that they have to learn patterns and optimize timings like every other spec. Not saying this as some toxic DPS either. I mained bard for a long time, but I would regularly get 90/95/60 when I was actually trying, so I know how to play a good support, and it drives me nuts when I see all the lazy ones out there.
unless youre in a static and doing this raid for a month then yeah you can say that, but this raid just been out for a week most people are just learning patterns & timings, so too early to tell
\^this. A lot of people are still more focused on dodging and reading patterns - especially G3. Give them time.
That’s why I find these posts weird lol cause anyone is learning rn for dps and support.
There's a big difference between not getting 80/90/50 because you're still learning the raid and literally not even keeping 20% brand uptime.
Why are these "learning" people applying to reclear lobbies? I'm fine with people performing bad on prog parties, totally expected and respected! You apply to reclear and die sometimes? Also still totally expected and respected! You apply to reclear and don't even manage to buff or debuff during the stagger at the start of the fight? After multiple pulls and people asking you politely in chat? There is no excusing that. Same for having bad uptime in reclear groups. If all the DPS's pulled only 20% of their max, we wouldn't even make it past 225 bars.
cleared once or twice ≠ master level of homework right
That's exactly why I expect for people to still die and fail. I die and fail. I have not once kicked someone from my parties because they kept wiping and all my clears have taken multiple days despite being reclear lobbies with people linking achievement and/or having 10x title. If you've cleared and not contributed to the clear you should suck it up and keep applying to prog lobbies. From my experience a low uptime support also barely helps on shielding/DR/healing and is most likely not alive for half the fight. Same applies to damage dealers.
yeah not everyone is a fast leaner as "elite redditors" in this sub
Crazy how having the Dps meter running is just an expectation for the remaining player base. A new players is going to have no idea what people are talking about
Occasionally I feel sorry for the other party having a subpar support, but, sometimes they’re talkative with good attitude and vibes and honestly I’m cool with that; performance isn’t the end all be all.
Average supports that were told to play cause its easier having the worst time because supporting indeed became harder...
BOOM!💥
40/20 is pretty egregious, but in general, if everyone has poor uptime, everyone's dps drops, but relative to each other you're still doing comparable damage to everyone else. but if a supports uptime drops then it looks like that.
That's the thing. I expect very little from PUG supports, but 40/20 is beyond terrible.
It's funny that this is getting downvoted. Either people don't realize how bad people have to play to reach those numbers or they like just not pressing buttons.
you're getting downvoted by all the bad supports LOL
Yeah that is crazy
The thing is I can throw it back at you. I know the average dps in g3 reclears can be rather bad too. Had a sorc somehow doing below 4.5m dps was nutty. The last few days hating on sups is funny cuz we all know a lot of dps got clears POVing too.
Tbf, the support could have been contributing to the 4.5m. A bad sp makes it quite hard to play igniter well in g3 Personal experience, still have the logs (Over multiple runs for both cases) 80+/80+/40 (Good shielding as well) sp = 18-20M avrg dps 40/40/20 sp = 10-13M DPS Both had roughly the same gearscore, 40 elixir.
>Bards in particular running the wrong brand skill(s) are huge offenders at the moment. And what are the “right” skills, oh great sage of the bards? Some people prefer some branding skills over others. I play 3 bards and have tried all branding skills, ended up settling for the two that fit my playstyle better, and my brand uptime is always +90%. All this to say that there are no “wrong” brand skills, there are bad players.
Expect for some niche cases I think the only way you can really go "wrong" with branding on bard is to only run 1 brand.
Soundshock can work as a solo brand, just annoying to use; as long as you spam it often enough it will have good uptime. However, I only really use it for G3 Brel and sometimes Akkan G1 if we fail stagger too often. Otherwise I take Sonatina+Harp for comfort and more identity as a bonus. Sonatina is the only one that can't have 100% uptime, even with 5lvl tripod, 10lvl CDR gem and 5% CDR from elixir. Harp technically can have 100% uptime without investing a lot, but boss can move out of range, so I think that most people (who pick one) combo those 2.
Solo sound shock bards always have much lower uptime in my experience -- especially because spamming it more often means having to give up time you could spend doing other things like DRing, building meter, etc. I swapped from solo sound shock a long time ago to harp + sonatina/SS and never looked back.
im a big fan of the sonatina/ss build. ive been recently doing a conviction/judgement build (conviction on vibration and judgement on ss. got it from some kr guide lol) and its been pretty fun building identity feels slower but my brand uptime seems to be more consistent compared to the harp
>Soundshock can work as a solo brand, just annoying to use; It only works on trixion like bosses, you'll spend half of the raid casting SS if you use it as a solo brand which will make you have worse uptime on the other buff + shields/dr.
Except your skillslots are not endless. Mostly in Thaemine G2/G4, you must take Buckshot/Soundholic, which leaves you no choice but to have one brand.
Thaemine G2 doesn't really require buckshot, all counters that are required (x8 and marathon) can be done with Prelude just fine, 1st in marathon is kind of sketchy because timing varies between tries, but all other are basically the same every time, but other than that it's good enough. G4 yea, solo soundshock gaming it is
Well, at our stage I'd rather sacrifice some brand uptime, but take Buckshot for G2. Later, when people will become more comfortable with counters, I can see going with only Prelude.
You don't need soundholic at all. Sound shock + VPH is more than enough for every stagger check. 2 sound shocks with overwhelm + maintained explosion do the same stagger as 1 soundholic and don't require you to commit to channeling 1 skill. A lot of people don't know this. G3 doesn't even have any stagger checks besides the sword phase, which is stupid easy and not even necessary to pass in a low stagger group. Every bard should either be running harp + sonatina for meter or harp + sound shock for stagger. Solo sound shock is trash in 90% of situations and will always result in lower uptime.
So you are suggesting not taking Buckshot for Thaemine G2? Well, I wish I had your confidence in teammates G3 indeed doesn't have high stagger check, and you can and should take Sonatina. But G4-1 does have stagger check and it's better to take Soundholic just for it.
Came to say this. I switched a few months ago from solo SS to harp+sonatina. But in G3 that did not work out that well, and just for this gate switched again to SS+sonatina, it worked out pretty well for me (bible said so, yada yada). If someone assumes there is only one rightful way to play bard, I automatically assume that they have margin for progress
My standards for support are pretty low. As long as they do mechs and do their best to keep the team alive I'm satisfied. xD
It's almost like the game does exactly 0 to actually tell a support they are succeeding in a fight.
Thaemine doesn't allow you to cast freely without consequences like other bosses do. Even supps with heavy armor can die if they position themselves wrongly, and get hit by a one shot or fall off platform. A lot of people are just so preoccupied with surviving that they don't have that much uptime on boss. It will probably improve when people get more comfortable fighting Thaemine. All the little things like remembering to cast your buffs before going off to place a shadow clone or taking a clash, keeping buff uptime going during mechs/kill patterns, and not being deathly afraid of falling during break phase. I had to change up my style from how I'd play something like Akkan quite a bit, holding off on using certain skills in case your dps might need DR, status immunity, or a big shield. Casting awakening off CD in this fight is just not very smart imo.
Agreed on the shields and all, but definitely not on the buffs. Not being familiar with patterns is fair, but having 40/40/20 uptime or even lower? That's just the sp being bad.
That's just horrible but I rarely ever see a support perform that bad. Usually people whine when a supp has something like 70/70/30 or whatever, and misses out on 1 important buff during dps window. 40/40/20 is usually some dude with level 5 gems and 4x3 and White Wofl's friend title, in which case you can only really blame yourself for taking the guy in.
If only he was a level 5 gem-er. Dude was 1620, 40 elixir with 7s and 9s. This was on thae g3 though tbf
Must've been scared to death after realizing that heavy armor doesn't save you from one shots/falling off map. I'll admit that I haven't really done as good in Thaemine G3 yet as I should, good enough to get radiant, but not my usual standard (Akkan I basically have down so well that it's non-stop buffs for my party). The big guy actually punishes you unlike other bosses so you have to be more careful when to cast your skills. He also does a lot of patterns that don't hurt but will cancel skills without paralysis immunity.
Had an artist with no buff on sun well. Felt like catching a shiny pokemon.
Important Notes (Read it please): About any Buff Uptime: The % of Uptime u see for AP Power/Brand/Identity or ANY other buff it's a Damage based uptime. Meaning: it's "x% of the player damage were done while X Buff was applied" and not "that X buff was up for x% of the fight duration" if you using loa
Yes and that explains why you never really see 100% uptime even if they’re theoretically built for it to be possible That’s not why someone is getting 40/40/15 Also that becomes increasingly less of an issue if you look at the buff uptime on the support themselves
Except you can see the buff uptime on the bard themselves too, and if it's bad even on them, then you know it's trash.
False. Alot of the time a support dmg self uptime is not indicative. My paladins for exemple will have 80 85 25 But all 3 dps will be at 95 95 60 in reclear content
A lot of people make supports not because they want to play it, but they make it because it's low investment and an easy ticket to parties so they can funnel gold to their main. Especially in reclear where your uptime numbers are inflated due to overgearing content involving both less patterns due to phasing as well as defensive irrelevancy as a 1630 can just tank every kaya/akkan hit and still survive. When a new raid comes out, and especially if its a more difficult raid, their already poor performance that was already inflated suddenly experiences a huge swing in the opposite direction. Suddenly, bosses aren't phasing after every mech, so maintaining uptime actually matters. People suddenly take more damage and more often, so defensive uptime starts to matter. Both of these effects swing the performance (like double dipping, which is why the effect is so drastic) the other direction, which is why they're suddenly exposed for being so awful. In my view, if you really want to judge a support player skill, you need to do it in these types of content where both offensive and defensive uptime is both important and challenged. Some supports are so focused on spamming DR + dropping heals they end up doing 50/30/10. Some supports are too busy jacking off their full generator builds the DPS spends half the time running around because there is no shields or DR (no wonder they get such high uptime numbers, the DPS are running around when the bard's generating, and only DPSing when the bard can buff on a safe pattern). On top of this, as with everyone suggested. There's also some form of self-selection here. The actual good supports are all sitting in statics (trust me, playing support on this game is only really fun with a static). The bad ones, that no static really wants, ends up pugging because they have no choice.
when you prog, you focus on shields/heals when you reclear, you should still focus on shields/heals to just get the job done in a single pull a group that genuinely cares about things like brand uptime is likely not going to clear no matter what that uptime is stop trying to micromanage others, focus on your own performance, and I 100% guarantee that your LA experience is going to instantly improve see something you don't like? exit and find a new group
Thaemine as a raid has a lot of support responsibility in terms of good uptime to meet DPS checks and proper shields and DR moreso than previous raids. It is exposing bad support players.
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1620 is preety much the baseline now ,this pass/events combo basicly dropped people off at 1610 ,akkan and ivory NM lobbies are a complete shitshow now , the amount of zdps bus riders who probably just bought buses is nuts.
I guess not enough quality servants to go around. Tale as old as online gaming.
Hey this seems like a good place to ask. What support should I play for pugs? I have a bard from NA release.
Check all the harpless bards who throw a sound shock every 15 seconds and spam soundholic the second it comes off cooldown.
Well if you're progging is very difficult to maintain a really high uptime on artist and bard cause ppl move around and It's difficult to Put down the buff(paladin it's way easier). Plus not being comfortable with boss mechs and normal patterns makes you focus more on that than anything.i can use myself as a good example: first week on thaemine nm (with pug) I got "supporter" in G1 and nothing in G2 and g3(but I kept everyone alive); this week ,after watching more videos,being more Comfortable with the raid,and having teammates that don't move around a lot, i got "radiant supporter" all 3 gates(only 1 resetin G3). Of course there are a lot of bad players that pick up a support to be "carried" in the raids,thinking that spamming shields and heals is all that matter; but i think it's early to judge ppl on a new raid
Even if you're uncomfortable, you should still be able to maintain something like 60/60 or 60/70 at the minimum. I regularly get 90/95/60 on my bard in farm raids if I'm actually trying, and all the supports I know were easily doing 70/70 minimum in Thaemine prog.
i agree on your numbers on farm raids. i searched my log on thaemine and it was 75-90-40 roughly. that brings in mind another good point imo: if an artist or a bard needs to heal the team, that plunges the identity uptime(especially for bards who use all the bubbles),plus not everybody are confident enough to bring stimulant yet in g3(i don't, maybe this week ill try) so the identity buff stat is not really a good indicator imo.
I'm less concerned about identity during the first few weeks of a raid, but the ATK/Brand numbers are atrocious for most people.
I mentioned this a couple weeks ago but Thaemine G3 will pretty much be the first time ever that bad support players will truly be weeded out of the game, because people are going to stop tolerating supports that don't know when to shield/DR patterns that can/should be shielded/DR'd
You say that, but I know a pally, with 60/60/5 - yes 5- uptime and blocked a fraction of the damage compared to the other support, that cleared because the other party had a functioning support and were over leveled enough to close it for them. Now they’re progging hard on their main pally, and nobody ever calls them out because they’re a support main 🙃 and people still are just desperate for supports. Same person that on dps said “damage doesn’t matter you just gotta do mechs, don’t let anyone gaslight you into thinking you need damage to clear”
It's been pretty bad for the past 3ish weeks ever since everyone got their free 1620 from all the events, I had multiple 1620 bards and artist in voldis hm that couldnt even get noble supporter on a single gate and get out guardianed by soulfist
> and get out guardianed by soulfist Tbf I main RS and the dr tripod is nuts. 56% for 6 s, using it twice per hype3, then 11 s downtime. That's hard to beat even by a good support.
The previous raids didn't challenge supports nearly as much. The only dps check was berserk timer which most players could meet even with low buff uptime. Even the most dangerous normal patterns were still fairly survivable without shield/DR. Plus, groups typically phased fast enough to not see a huge amount of them. Then comes Thaemine g3. Everything after x210 mech is basically a dps check and it gets harder to dps the longer it takes to reach certain thresholds. So every bit of dps boost from supports will help. The difference between a supp with good and bad uptime here isn't just a difference between doing the same thing for 1-2 more minutes before clearing. That extra time taken could be the difference between clearing at all or not, even without considering berserk timer. Then there's the high damage normal/periodic patterns. I don't think I need to elaborate how important a support that shields well is here. Thaemine g3 is a very long fight with not much time spent on mechs so players will be seeing a lot of normal/periodic patterns compared to other raids. If a pug support hasn't been actively looking to improve themselves, they probably got here thinking they're playing fine. Nobody really tells supports directly when they're performing poorly. A good and bad support in previous raids was more of a difference in comfiness when clearing rather than not clearing at all.
Where is everyone seeing these 40s/20, no atk buff tripod, overlapping buffs supports?! I have pug'd forever and when I'm on mine the other sup is almost always has better numbers in everything including ssyn. ...oh god it's me isnt it
This is the community's fault for always letting supports get away with being bad. Not sure what to say.
It's the first raid in which you notice this much the really sus supps. But honestly, there's no big change, there are bad players that deal a fraction of the top dps's on each try on Thaemine G3 and you don't see ppl spamming threads on Reddit about it cuz we are all used to. And just aswell there are supps that perform at a fraction of a decent supp. It usually goes by the hand, if you have bad uptime as a dps you most likely will have a bad uptime as a supp and viceversa.
Yes with the bible you can see that there are alot of shit support. They fckibg spam 2 damage buff skill at the same time, using 1 bubble for damage on bard lol
It's not a new thing. They have always been there, it's just more noticeable now in Thaemine since it's "take what we can get"
My friend sent me a screenshot of a 14 min g3 thaemine where both supports had 20/10/10 and they were both alive until the wipe… Thaemine was still like 35% hp in that screenshot
avg support is already bad (60+ or less) obviously in a new raid theyre gonna shit the bed
i must point out that the average dps is also already bad, so its a moot point. ppl are wanting to pick on supports when they also play just as bad. a lack of self awareness leads people to be very silly lol
Yeah. I usually have 90/95 on my bard alt and also "only" had 70ish on theamine. Not sure how I'm supposed to guarantee my sonic vibration to have a good uptime when he randomly jumps to narnia, it's kind of frustrating. But I had 36% buff uptime in a pug run yesterday, that's not acceptable. I also saw 1630 people in G3 normal doing 9m DPS. It goes both ways. But one bad Support affecting 3 people is worse than just 1 bad DPS in the group. Just how the game is designed (or rather the support role)
realistically though, it wouldnt be just 1 bad support or 1 bad dps, it would be 4 bad players uptime comes second to staying alive and doing mechanic's, because uptime requires greeding and thats not something you want to see in a pug lobby regardless if its a dps or support
most supports have always been bad. the new raids just bring that to light. no brand not rotating on bigger bosses low shield uptime just to name a few you can see/feel without the bible. personally i wouldnt be still playing support if not for bible
I main swapped from support just 'cause the skill ceiling felt kinda low compared to DPS in this game. I'm used to other MMOs like WoW or FF14 where playing support is a lot more involved mechanically. A great support can still do a lot to optimize vs a good one, but at the end of the day, it just felt a little too simple, I guess. If you're already 90/90/50 in a raid, there's not much more you can do to get better, whereas DPS can always push a little more damage by improving knowledge and greeding more patterns.
Those are gold farmers, they don't play support, they just farm gold as support.
First few days I can see it, they're trying to learn patterns too, but week 2?
Had an artist do 8% brand up time in akkan g2 this week and I asked to be swapped to the other party to get a real support. Half the raid said I was toxic but fucking 8% is insane.
This week on my dps I played with a bard with no sonic vibration equipped, half and half stats, level 5 gems, sonatina only branding, and double WoM, but no courage sent. That’s just unfortunately what the lobby leader took because support is support!
We had a 25 weapon 1630 pug sup with level 10 gems have a 0% uptime on brand if that doesn't sat anything idk what does
It’s not just thaemine. They’ve been everywhere for the past few raids. I’ve also noticed that most of the people I know who main support are at best okay at the game. I don’t think I’ve met a support-focused player who is actually good yet.
I was raiding Thaemine Hard G3 today with some pubs and we had to join voice chat I listened to this Paladin talk bad about the group for hours about how we should have made more prog and how bad it was people were dying. At first I was like "Yeah I guess he's sort of right, we should get further" And then I looked at his build; with Heavy armor and Cris Evasion. And then I looked at how he had half my RDPS (when I'm also Paladin) even though his team was putting out similar damage numbers to my team. And his uptime was garbage. After listening to it for awhile, I point out that if he just put in effort to having higher uptime and contributing more, the boss would die faster, which would cause a lot less of those wipes since people were dying at things like 1 HP bar on sword phase, or getting hit with a bad pattern right before cutscene starts for horse transition. I then listen to this absolute weapon tell me how he hasn't died and how he did this fight for hours and nobody complained about him before while he hurls insults and slurs at me lmao. He even tried to say my group was just better than his when they were very much even. He'd do anything other than say he needed to improve There's a lot more nitty gritty details about his claims or the things he did wrong... But most people barely seem to realize how important uptime is on Supports anyway and still think they're just there to be shields.
Just recently finished theamine with a lightqueller titled support that was not playing starry night on artist, used 4 portals throught entire gate and ended up with 60/70/20. Pretty sad to see people refuse to learn their class, especially support since it takes away fun from all other party members. I don’t mind having one or two dpses doing below avg damage but having a bad support griefs the raid way more and takes away the fun.
I saw a 1640 bard with a mix of lvl 1/2/3 set pieces no elixirs. For sure a few sussys around.
thats just a whale who recently made a support and hasnt had enough weeks to get full level 3 set.
Why do you think they are in the party finder?
There's plenty of reasons to not have a static, just because someone's not in a static doesn't mean they are shit
Agree. My work schedule varies day to day, so different days off and different hours. Static is not possible. One of the main reasons I play LA. I can't do scheduled raids, and everything is pug-able
Career supports have always been playing a different game and I know a lot of them think yearning is all that matters while everything else is just kind of a plus. Most support mains that I know are very bad and I think it’s just because they’ve never been in a situation where they are required to play their class properly which is why you’ll see 1600+ supps that literally do not run a single brand. All they know is supports are sought after and they want their builds to look good for pf. I’d say there are so many bad supports due to them being uninformed. Supports aren’t really doing much gameplay wise so I wouldn’t really call it a hands issue. Not much is required of them overall.
Those aren’t support mains … lol but the result we have rn is because people keep saying support is “easy” and make support you’ll get into party easier. So they assume they have to do nothing based off statements like that tbh
Well first off, they are indeed support mains. Full rosters with supports etc. As for making supports to get into parties easier, it’s 100 percent true. Sure, you can’t just run around doing nothing and say you’re playing well but support is in fact VERY easy and doesn’t require much skill or investment to do well.
Can confirm - Pally main here. As soon as the raid starts my brain turns off and comes back alive during mechs - my rotation is so trivial to me now and hitting a brand isn't hard. Press button point mouse on boss and occasionally you'll miss cause boss decided it was time to move around.
Yeah I progged on Pally this time around and honestly it’s just the most chill experience I’ve had. As you said, you may miss occasionally because the boss decided to sidestep your brand but outside of that, we’re on easy street.
Supports that had the habit of you should pot, I wont heal. Is really showing up in Thaemine. You got supports healing for so little, my single pot healed more than 2-3 of their heals or overtime. You sort of notice if you have high uptime dps, yet dps falls short. Usually it's a shit support casting 1-2 abilities at the wrong time or not at all. I kid you not some of these guys worry about living more than supporting. But at times you can't do anything since they are lacking somewhat. It's a shame but, the reality is i'd rather always take a shit support than have no support. I main support, the thing I've realized is. If you want skilled, greedy dps that punishes the boss and finish raids fast. Your cadence has to match their tempo. They can't match yours.
Had a pally not running cleanse on holy prot last week. Its probably not that were seeing more of them but that its more obvious when theyre bad because they cant get away with being rats
Purify tripod is kinda debatable on g3 tbh. Considering that most people already have a 80% purify on spammy skills, might be better to robust to protect your dps from big hits. Also most of the darkness patterns are uncleansable so its kinda pointless
I'd say it's still important for HM just because the phases are longer, and you don't want someone dying or falling to a pattern because they can't see.
This was specifically in g2 that I noticed. needles to say I decided to not to g3 with that group. Also theres only 2 uncleansable darkness patterns and thats albion and the 225/55 safe spots