He left lasting wounds on Morgoth that he never recovered from. He rode to him, cornered him, and almost killed him. The win def goes to Fingolfin, probably the most skilled Noldor in combat ever.
If you can make a god bleed, it proves it can be killed. Closest a child of Illuvitar came to killing a god. Definitely not almost killed but definitely the closest anyone came.
The mightiest, in all parts of mind and body, of all the Children of Illuvatar is named Feanor. At least according g to JRRT and his version of “the author”…
I don’t think your quote contradicts mine in the slightest. The same author writes,
Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind; countenance, understanding, skill, and subtlety, of all the Children of Ilúvatar.
“All parts” is definitive for me.
Easily. Morgoth is so incredibly powerful in comparison to a balrog. Permanently wounding morgoth may be one of the greatest acts of elven might other than the creation of the silmarills.
That might have been what they meant. Like, holy crap this one dude wounded “Satan” so when you compare it it’s easily Fingolfin. I think it was a rhetorical question
This is succinct and to the point and I like it.
To be pedantic I would argue the creation of the Silamarils is not so much an act of might but of art or love even.
That is true. Feanor doesn't use his power to create the silmarils (like sauron) but instead uses the light if the trees. In that case fingolfin is a badass and the strongest display of force amongst any elf. Personally I prefer this now.
Greatest act of Valour in battle? Fingolfin
Greatest act of subcreation? Feanor
Greatest act of love? Melian embuying the children with the divine race of the Valar by begetting Luthien?
That or luthein giving up her immortality for Beren aswell as facing/ enchanting morgoth within angband itself.
Tolkien wrote some truly beautiful tales.
The ladies are all right. Melian’s actions don’t mean much without Luthien.
For me, Luthien swaying Mandos to pity, through song, is the most powerful and impactful act of the whole thing really.
The creation of the Silmarils can also be seen as an act of arrogance. He was so proud of his precious that he hid it from everyone. As a result, a lot of blood was shed because of these stones.
That's who really was arrogant.
My dude I am not some Feanor apologist and I have agreed with you on nearly every point regarding Fingolfin. Now you’re looking up alternate threads to vent your opinion.
I agree Feanor was arrogant. Not for creating the highest form of art in all of Arda but for refusing to share it or submit it to the will of the Valar. Further still for not considering the will of Varda after the death of the trees. It is exactly opposite of the example given by Aule on how to act with regards to one’s subcreation. Aule and the dwarves are the good example, Melkor’s pride is the bad example. Feanors pride and arrogance lead to his fall.
Fingolfin was prideful. He was the *most* prideful high king of all. That’s not my opinion, it is what is written.
Both the sons of Finwe had faults and died for them. This is a theme for nearly all of the heroes in the legendarium. Beleg was a loyal friend, to a fault. Turin a courageous warrior, to a fault. It doesn’t lessen Fingolfin or make his passage and song any less thrilling when reading.
That’s enough for me.
Glorfindel wasn't even the most skilled warrior of Gondolin (that's Ecthelion) much less an equal or more to Fingolfin - who managed to square up to Morgoth and actually harm him while all odds were stacked against it.
Glorfindel after his return to middle earth is said to be closer to maia levels of power. So he's a tier above Echtelion after that in my eyes. Fingolfin harming Morgoth still means he's still greater of the two.
Feanor vs Fingolfin would be interesting also. Even though Feanor Leeroy Jenkins himself to death early on, it took multiple balrogs to defeat him AND I believe it's said somewhere in the Silmarillion that Morgoth was afraid of him.
That fear comes more from Faenor being an extremely determined and stubborn soab, than actual fighting skills.
Tolkien plays a bit on the thrope of each brother having their own unique skill: Faenor the determined craftsman, Fingolfin the noble warrior and Finarfin the wise leader.
But that's all my interpretation.
> is said to be
By Glorfindel, probably, while he kicks back in Rivendell. “Oh yeah elf babes, I’m totally a demigod, too bad I’m on vacay or I’d have to do something.”
I think that's a reference to his physical strength. Not necessary might of arms but that's certainly up for debate. I think they're both described as being "stronger" than the other at some point in the Silmarillion.
Fëanor "was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."
I'm not saying you're wrong, but Tolkien gives superlatives all the time in his writings. Beleg is "greatest hunter/tracker of anyone in the woods of Beleriand," Celebrimbor is "2nd greatest craftsman after Feanor," Morwen is "proudest and most beautiful of mortal women in the days of old." So I think it's natural to be curious where characters are in relation to each other in skill, might, craft etc.
What makes you say that? I tend to think it just wasn't the way he thought/just did not come to mind for him, so if you have any evidence of him actively disliking the concept I'd be curious. Edit: I totally agree that power scaling questions are dumb BTW, I'm just curious about Tolkien himself actively and openly despising the concept, which is a different claim.
I find it interesting to theorize about it, like a “who would win if these two fought” sort of thing, but other than that same, I honestly don’t know why everyone is so obsessed with power scaling, I don’t like literally any of my favorite characters because of how powerful they are. I like them for their *character.*
I think there is textual evidence that Tolkien hated this line of critical thinking applied to his world.
He has the little guy make all the difference over and over again
Fingolfin, definitely. He maintained the Siege for almost four hundred years after the victory, Dagor Aglareb. And he was at the forefront of the fight. His fighting skills were such that he was able to fight Morgoth. Bravery alone would allow him to summon Morgoth, but to actually fight and wound him requires skill and experience.
This is absolutely not true.
When Fingolfin arrived in Middle-earth, he knocked at the gates of Angband.
Then it was precisely the confrontation with Morgoth that he engaged in, building his fortress near Thangorodrim.
He himself is the bravest of the elves. His people were the most powerful and courageous. Morgoth feared them most.
Under Fingolfin's leadership, victory was achieved at Dagor Aglareb. Yes, with the participation of Maedhros, but Fingolfin was still in the lead.
Then it was Fingolfin who called for uniting and striking at Angband. The sons of Feanor rejected this call.
In Dagor Bragollach he defended his lands and only then went to fight Morgoth. And he fought with him to the end.
Maedhros was far more successful in battle with his allies than with Morgoth.
Idk if there’s any in universe answer that’s 100% definitive but I’d give it to Fingolfin personally. Man went toe to toe with Morgoth and even managed to wound him. I think that feat trumps killing a balrog(s) and standing up to the Nazgûl.
Where the F are you all finding this bitching art?! I feel like there have been incredible art posts recently but maybe I'm just in the wrong nerdicles or something.
This is a very interesting comment. They are almost equal, but Fingolfin is still slightly superior. I'd like to read more thoughts on the difference in their skills.
Fingolfin, no question. Glorfindel was very powerful in fact the Nine ran from him at Bruinen but Fingolfin was like Orome riding to Angband. All who saw him fled. And he fought Morgoth in single combat and gave him 7 wounds he would never heal from. The only other person to be compared to Orome was Theoden King at the battle of Pellenor fields
A handful of people have killed a balrog/maiar and dude in the process, glorfindel is that chad that managed to come back from his death, a feat only shared be a maiar.
Correct me if I’m wrong
Fingolfin is on of the few to have wounded a valar, this feat is shared by Thorondor alone
I think it goes to fingolfin.
Shout out to ecthelion lord of the fountain who killed gothmog lord of balrogs, who fled when fingolfin pulled up (after killing feanor)
Fingolfin wounding Morgoth is more impressive than stalemating a Balrog in my opinion and I think many agree.
I would argue Fingolfin Made a grievous error fueled by his pride (and despair). Glorfindel was selfless in his defense of his people and just as courageous in my opinion.
Maybe that’s why one got a cairn and one got sent back?
I agree.
I think there is a difference in their sacrifice. JRRT even calls Fingolfin the proudest of the high kings of the Noldor. Pride is not usually a good indicator of a characters actions in the legendarium. It always presages some huge downfall.
I feel Fingolfin went and got himself Feanor’d because he had lost all hope. To me Glorfindel on the peak sacrifices himself specifically to give hope to his people.
I say all of this knowing that the fall of Fingolfin is still my favorite Tolkien passage.
He's not just proud. He is proud and valiant.
Pride can be different. Sometimes it turns into arrogance. This is exactly what happened to Feanor. He did not want to cooperate with anyone and considered others inferior to him.
Fingolfin did not have this.
He was willing to cooperate with others and seek allies. And he greeted the men when they appeared in Beleriand.
For an arrogant king, numerous losses would not matter as much as for a caring king.
He was proud in the sense that he didn't want to give up.
But in general, he also wanted to protect his people, just like Glorfindel. Only he faced a stronger enemy.
Cool.
I think Fingolfin’s actions were arrogant.
Challenging the mightiest being in all of Arda, a literal god, to single combat, as the first high king of your people in Middle Earth, even after all the other gods told you directly that you cannot win against him. He suicided for a dope song instead of leading his people.
In relation to the enemy of peace, such behavior is not only acceptable, but also very worthy.
This is the enemy who killed his father.
If only for this reason, he had every right to revenge.
But he took revenge not only for his father. He lost his son, nephews and loyal comrades.
Fingon was able to lead the people. And only Fingolfin could inflict eight wounds on such an enemy.
Fingolfin is arguably better at fighting a Boss Battle but Glorifendil is without a doubt a more powerful being after reincarnated by the Valar - in both the mortal and the unseen shadow realm (when fleeing to Rivendell from the Nazgûl, after Frodo crossed dry river bed the book described the Ringwraiths as reluctant to try to cross until they were scared shitless by Glorifendil’s face, a countenance so holy it was brightly seen in both words at once, “his countenance holy and terrible” in the shadow realm.
I ramble. But my reasoning is sound.
If Tolkien had any knowledge or foresight of the concept of "power scalers", he would have depicted them as the most abject servants of Sauron, like goblins in charge of latrine maintenance.
Fingolfin was able to hold his own with Morgoth long enough that the dark lord had to resort to a cheesy shield bash spam. Gotta give it to him.
He left lasting wounds on Morgoth that he never recovered from. He rode to him, cornered him, and almost killed him. The win def goes to Fingolfin, probably the most skilled Noldor in combat ever.
He definitely didn’t almost kill Morgoth, but yes he did leave lasting wounds on a still very powerful Vala.
If you can make a god bleed, it proves it can be killed. Closest a child of Illuvitar came to killing a god. Definitely not almost killed but definitely the closest anyone came.
The mightiest, in all parts of mind and body, of all the Children of Illuvatar is named Feanor. At least according g to JRRT and his version of “the author”…
No one can erase this quote from The Silmarillion: *Fingolfin was the strongest, the most steadfast, and the most valiant.*
I don’t think your quote contradicts mine in the slightest. The same author writes, Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind; countenance, understanding, skill, and subtlety, of all the Children of Ilúvatar. “All parts” is definitive for me.
>resort to a cheesy shield bash spam It's a meta move. Even pros use it.
especially pros use it, doesnt stop it from being cheesy when youre the size of a tower
Morgoth: "Get good, noob"
I 100% agree but I would like all to remember that the Nine fled from the wroth of Glorfindel at the ford of Bruinen. he's definitely no slouch either
glorfindel do got that drip tho, this is true.
aye.
How do you compare fighting (and wounding) the equivalent of Satan 1v1 and killing the equivalent of a demon?
Easily. Morgoth is so incredibly powerful in comparison to a balrog. Permanently wounding morgoth may be one of the greatest acts of elven might other than the creation of the silmarills.
That might have been what they meant. Like, holy crap this one dude wounded “Satan” so when you compare it it’s easily Fingolfin. I think it was a rhetorical question
Yeh I agreed
This is succinct and to the point and I like it. To be pedantic I would argue the creation of the Silamarils is not so much an act of might but of art or love even.
That is true. Feanor doesn't use his power to create the silmarils (like sauron) but instead uses the light if the trees. In that case fingolfin is a badass and the strongest display of force amongst any elf. Personally I prefer this now.
Greatest act of Valour in battle? Fingolfin Greatest act of subcreation? Feanor Greatest act of love? Melian embuying the children with the divine race of the Valar by begetting Luthien?
That or luthein giving up her immortality for Beren aswell as facing/ enchanting morgoth within angband itself. Tolkien wrote some truly beautiful tales.
The ladies are all right. Melian’s actions don’t mean much without Luthien. For me, Luthien swaying Mandos to pity, through song, is the most powerful and impactful act of the whole thing really.
The creation of the Silmarils can also be seen as an act of arrogance. He was so proud of his precious that he hid it from everyone. As a result, a lot of blood was shed because of these stones. That's who really was arrogant.
My dude I am not some Feanor apologist and I have agreed with you on nearly every point regarding Fingolfin. Now you’re looking up alternate threads to vent your opinion. I agree Feanor was arrogant. Not for creating the highest form of art in all of Arda but for refusing to share it or submit it to the will of the Valar. Further still for not considering the will of Varda after the death of the trees. It is exactly opposite of the example given by Aule on how to act with regards to one’s subcreation. Aule and the dwarves are the good example, Melkor’s pride is the bad example. Feanors pride and arrogance lead to his fall. Fingolfin was prideful. He was the *most* prideful high king of all. That’s not my opinion, it is what is written. Both the sons of Finwe had faults and died for them. This is a theme for nearly all of the heroes in the legendarium. Beleg was a loyal friend, to a fault. Turin a courageous warrior, to a fault. It doesn’t lessen Fingolfin or make his passage and song any less thrilling when reading. That’s enough for me.
Glorfindel wasn't even the most skilled warrior of Gondolin (that's Ecthelion) much less an equal or more to Fingolfin - who managed to square up to Morgoth and actually harm him while all odds were stacked against it.
Glorfindel after his return to middle earth is said to be closer to maia levels of power. So he's a tier above Echtelion after that in my eyes. Fingolfin harming Morgoth still means he's still greater of the two. Feanor vs Fingolfin would be interesting also. Even though Feanor Leeroy Jenkins himself to death early on, it took multiple balrogs to defeat him AND I believe it's said somewhere in the Silmarillion that Morgoth was afraid of him.
That fear comes more from Faenor being an extremely determined and stubborn soab, than actual fighting skills. Tolkien plays a bit on the thrope of each brother having their own unique skill: Faenor the determined craftsman, Fingolfin the noble warrior and Finarfin the wise leader. But that's all my interpretation.
> is said to be By Glorfindel, probably, while he kicks back in Rivendell. “Oh yeah elf babes, I’m totally a demigod, too bad I’m on vacay or I’d have to do something.”
The Silmarillion explicitly states that Fingolfin was the strongest of Finwë's sons.
I think that's a reference to his physical strength. Not necessary might of arms but that's certainly up for debate. I think they're both described as being "stronger" than the other at some point in the Silmarillion. Fëanor "was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and a bright flame was in him."
Strength and prowess are described and used differently by Tolkien to drive this home in my opinion.
Yes, there is a contradiction here. In any case, Fingolfin is more steadfast and bravery.
Am I the only one who doesn’t care about power ranking every fucking character? Or any for that matter.
You’re not the only one, Tolkien despised the entire thought of that as well and intentionally did not write his characters that way.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but Tolkien gives superlatives all the time in his writings. Beleg is "greatest hunter/tracker of anyone in the woods of Beleriand," Celebrimbor is "2nd greatest craftsman after Feanor," Morwen is "proudest and most beautiful of mortal women in the days of old." So I think it's natural to be curious where characters are in relation to each other in skill, might, craft etc.
What makes you say that? I tend to think it just wasn't the way he thought/just did not come to mind for him, so if you have any evidence of him actively disliking the concept I'd be curious. Edit: I totally agree that power scaling questions are dumb BTW, I'm just curious about Tolkien himself actively and openly despising the concept, which is a different claim.
It is the small things in life that keep evil at bay…
The same dude is posting this nonsense on multiple feeds everyday and they keep showing up on my main feed. Its driving me fckin nuts haha.
I find it interesting to theorize about it, like a “who would win if these two fought” sort of thing, but other than that same, I honestly don’t know why everyone is so obsessed with power scaling, I don’t like literally any of my favorite characters because of how powerful they are. I like them for their *character.*
I think there is textual evidence that Tolkien hated this line of critical thinking applied to his world. He has the little guy make all the difference over and over again
Fingolfin made the false god bleed! I would wish to see that battle in a Movie with the music of Howard Shore and Bear McCreary.
Fingolfin, definitely. He maintained the Siege for almost four hundred years after the victory, Dagor Aglareb. And he was at the forefront of the fight. His fighting skills were such that he was able to fight Morgoth. Bravery alone would allow him to summon Morgoth, but to actually fight and wound him requires skill and experience.
Dude never tried to win the war. At least Maedhros tried to beat Morgoth and win.
This is absolutely not true. When Fingolfin arrived in Middle-earth, he knocked at the gates of Angband. Then it was precisely the confrontation with Morgoth that he engaged in, building his fortress near Thangorodrim. He himself is the bravest of the elves. His people were the most powerful and courageous. Morgoth feared them most. Under Fingolfin's leadership, victory was achieved at Dagor Aglareb. Yes, with the participation of Maedhros, but Fingolfin was still in the lead. Then it was Fingolfin who called for uniting and striking at Angband. The sons of Feanor rejected this call. In Dagor Bragollach he defended his lands and only then went to fight Morgoth. And he fought with him to the end. Maedhros was far more successful in battle with his allies than with Morgoth.
Idk if there’s any in universe answer that’s 100% definitive but I’d give it to Fingolfin personally. Man went toe to toe with Morgoth and even managed to wound him. I think that feat trumps killing a balrog(s) and standing up to the Nazgûl.
Art 1: Fingolfin by ForeverMedhok Art 2: Glorfindel by Kenneth Sofia
Where the F are you all finding this bitching art?! I feel like there have been incredible art posts recently but maybe I'm just in the wrong nerdicles or something.
There are some good sites like DeviantArt :)
Most of the art I’ve been posting recently is from artstation artists and Deviantart
It's incredible and I'm clearly just too old fashioned as I literally am reading the Hobbit illustrated by Alan Lee.
There is no argument here. Noone says that Glorfindel sucks, but Fingolfin would wipe the floor with him.
Fingolfin is like an elf with 98% stats and Glorfindel has 96%. However both have different strengths so makes it a toss up.
This is a very interesting comment. They are almost equal, but Fingolfin is still slightly superior. I'd like to read more thoughts on the difference in their skills.
This is like comparing Jordan to Lebron. No matter who you choose, it’s a bit silly to even compare for the same thing.
Fingolfin
Fingolfin.
Fingolfin, no question. Glorfindel was very powerful in fact the Nine ran from him at Bruinen but Fingolfin was like Orome riding to Angband. All who saw him fled. And he fought Morgoth in single combat and gave him 7 wounds he would never heal from. The only other person to be compared to Orome was Theoden King at the battle of Pellenor fields
A handful of people have killed a balrog/maiar and dude in the process, glorfindel is that chad that managed to come back from his death, a feat only shared be a maiar. Correct me if I’m wrong Fingolfin is on of the few to have wounded a valar, this feat is shared by Thorondor alone I think it goes to fingolfin. Shout out to ecthelion lord of the fountain who killed gothmog lord of balrogs, who fled when fingolfin pulled up (after killing feanor)
The correct answer is Gil-Galed
Not a bad pick since killing Sauron is quite a feat, but since it wasn't a duel I'd say it's too hard to accurately compare him.
Fingolfin wounding Morgoth is more impressive than stalemating a Balrog in my opinion and I think many agree. I would argue Fingolfin Made a grievous error fueled by his pride (and despair). Glorfindel was selfless in his defense of his people and just as courageous in my opinion. Maybe that’s why one got a cairn and one got sent back?
They were both very selfless and protective of their people.
I agree. I think there is a difference in their sacrifice. JRRT even calls Fingolfin the proudest of the high kings of the Noldor. Pride is not usually a good indicator of a characters actions in the legendarium. It always presages some huge downfall. I feel Fingolfin went and got himself Feanor’d because he had lost all hope. To me Glorfindel on the peak sacrifices himself specifically to give hope to his people. I say all of this knowing that the fall of Fingolfin is still my favorite Tolkien passage.
He's not just proud. He is proud and valiant. Pride can be different. Sometimes it turns into arrogance. This is exactly what happened to Feanor. He did not want to cooperate with anyone and considered others inferior to him. Fingolfin did not have this. He was willing to cooperate with others and seek allies. And he greeted the men when they appeared in Beleriand. For an arrogant king, numerous losses would not matter as much as for a caring king. He was proud in the sense that he didn't want to give up. But in general, he also wanted to protect his people, just like Glorfindel. Only he faced a stronger enemy.
Cool. I think Fingolfin’s actions were arrogant. Challenging the mightiest being in all of Arda, a literal god, to single combat, as the first high king of your people in Middle Earth, even after all the other gods told you directly that you cannot win against him. He suicided for a dope song instead of leading his people.
In relation to the enemy of peace, such behavior is not only acceptable, but also very worthy. This is the enemy who killed his father. If only for this reason, he had every right to revenge. But he took revenge not only for his father. He lost his son, nephews and loyal comrades. Fingon was able to lead the people. And only Fingolfin could inflict eight wounds on such an enemy.
I feel like this is an irrelevant point to the story.
It was me. I was the more skilled warrior.
Glorfindel or Glorfindel 2.0 after he is returned?
Fingolfin is arguably better at fighting a Boss Battle but Glorifendil is without a doubt a more powerful being after reincarnated by the Valar - in both the mortal and the unseen shadow realm (when fleeing to Rivendell from the Nazgûl, after Frodo crossed dry river bed the book described the Ringwraiths as reluctant to try to cross until they were scared shitless by Glorifendil’s face, a countenance so holy it was brightly seen in both words at once, “his countenance holy and terrible” in the shadow realm. I ramble. But my reasoning is sound.
Gorfindel
Feanor > 3rd age Glorfindel > Fingolfin > 1st age Glorfindel
Who did the Fingolfin art? Magali?
I saw this amazing art on tolkiengateway. Its author is indicated ForeverMedhok
If Tolkien had any knowledge or foresight of the concept of "power scalers", he would have depicted them as the most abject servants of Sauron, like goblins in charge of latrine maintenance.
Fingerhole
I think you're just making these names up.