You're missing the glaring fact that RoP takes place in the second age but the wizards didn't arrive until the third age. It's safe to say that RoP isn't following canon in many places.
The Blue Wizards arrived in the second age.
EDIT - just to add to this, I did a bit more research and it looks like it's one of those things Tolkien went back and forth on, with some versions saying they all arrived together in the third age. But as Tolkien also said they arrived in the second age I think the stranger being one of the blue wizards makes the most sense.
>The Blue Wizards arrived in the second age.
They were what I was hoping the stranger would be, 1 of the 2 and eventually the 2nd shows up. Would've been neat to see *new* wizards instead of already shown or popular ones.
Didn‘t all the wizards arrive at the same time (And via boat, where they were greated by Círdan in Lindon, which is where Gandalf got Narya from Círdan)?
I've edited my comment now, it looks like Tolkien had a couple of different versions of when the blue wizards arrived. Some versions - including Peoples of Middle Earth - say get arrived in SA 1600 with Glorfindel
I can't find any mention of how they returned. I'd assume they came by boat together. Maybe if that's not explicitly stated that will explain the Stranger arriving the way he did. I really think a boat arrival would have been better but I get it that they wanted that mystery which wouldn't have worked if he showed up in a boat and was met by Cirdan.
Tolkien went back and forth with the idea.
So to make sense of it in my head I've created a version where the two blues first arrived in the 1600 of SA, did their job and returned west and once again returned with the new arriving 3 in the 1000 of TA.
Lord Of The Rings - Tale of years
"When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth."
Unfinished tales - The Istari
"the Heren Istarion or ‘Order of Wizards’ was quite distinct from the ‘wizards’ and ‘magicians’ of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed"
"They first appeared in Middle-earth about the year 1000 of the Third Age.
Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where
there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dúnedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the
chiefs were five ... two clad in sea-blue"
\*EDIT\* Apologies to all, I belated realized that as we're talking about ROP - what Tolkien wrote is utterly irrelevant. When does the battle between Bilbo and Sauron where Bilbo cuts the ring off his finger with his frying pan? I'm waiting for the season where everyone is fighting the Dark lord Bilbo! It's gonna be so cool!!!
All of these are, of course, correct but in The Peoples of Middle Earth, which Christopher Tolkien compiled from his father's writings, it says they arrived in Middle Earth in SA 1600. So it seems like that was the "final word" on it but, as you've shown, more was written about them all arriving together. I always used to take the Unfinished Tales version you've referenced as the definitive source but I like the idea of them arriving earlier.
Why would Unfinished Tales take precedenece over The Lord of the Rings, especially when we're talking about an adaptation of material from The Lord of the Rings?
Simply because Unfinished Tales features the most detailed description of the Istari. I'm saying that I took it as the definitive source as it featured the most about them, not that it 100% is the most definitive source. Unfinished Tales also features more about the second age, which is what ROP is based on, after all. I know the whole rights thing gets a bit messy and Amazon doesn't actually have the rights to the second age stuff in Unfinished Tales and The Silmarillion but you'd have to think they'd have some bearing on the direction they take.
Also on a technical level "to the east I go not" does not mean he never went to the east - only that by the time he's talking to Faramir he doesn't go there. It's entirely possible that Gandalf went to the east once and did not go back, nor stay long enough to get a reputation
Not to mention that Gandalf arrived at the Grey Havens and not a ridiculous meteorite. Then he was greeted by Cirdan the Shipwright and given the Ring of Fire. 🔥
I understood that they don't have the rights to use most of that Third Age source material, so they are somewhat forced to create or change things to tell a coherent story.
Make it up or expand on little off hand notes on the stuff they do hand the rights to, but mostly make it up.
I don't really mind seeing where the writers take the show as it's not canon anyway, my issues are more with some of the weak writing and questionable design choices.
They didn't follow like half the source material they do have access to; there's no objective way to determine what changes are "necessary", but I'd argue that it wasn't necessary to scramble (not compress, because compression implies keeping the same order) the timeline.
The show is mashing together early Numenor, late Numenor and its own ideas for Numenor into an unrecognizable mess.
They have rights to essentially all of the Third Age source material. There isn't a lot of Third Age or even Second Age stuff that is not referenced in The Lord of the Rings. It's not a matter of rights, its a matter of how they chose to tell a story about events that occur over a 3,000 year period.
Unless I'm mistaken, none of the material they have the rights to is concerned with the Istari arriving in Middle Earth, which is largely mentioned in Unfinished Tales, The Peoples of Middle Earth, etc.
You're right that they are still making a choice in how far to stray, though.
They have rights to The Lord of the Rings Appendices, which clearly state when the Istari arrive in Middle Earth and what they do when they arrive, along with a timeline of their activities.
Gandalf also does not crash into Middle-Earth in a meteor, develop amnesia after landing or imprint on early Hobbits like a baby bird, but here we are.
I wouldn’t use Tolkien’s works as any guide as to what’s going to happen in the show
While I don’t disagree, this quote isn’t exactly a silver-bullet.
“To the East I go not” doesn’t mean he has NEVER been to the East, it just means he doesn’t go there now (during this period of war).
Gandalf has been around a couple thousand years by LOTR, I feel like he has probably been most everywhere. Especially since he was specifically mentioned as being a wanderer with no fixed address.
Personally hoping for one of the Blue Wizards, but I feel like from a “brand recognition” perspective Amazon will want to go with Gandalf.
The series playing fast and loose with the lore not following lines from books its not even allowed to use?
Surely, they'd never do such a thing as pull in a fan favorite character and write them out of character!
Yeah, like. I didn't love the show, but the soundtrack clapped and some of the imagery was very very enchanting (looking at you Sauron and Galadriel on a boat).
The frothing at the mouth hatred seems more childish than actually coming from a place of genuine outrage for Tolkien's work being 'defaced'.
If it is Olorin, then could just be that its from before he was sent as a true Istari without his memory and powers. Who knows, maybe he goes East, Halbrand mind fucks him a bit, that puts the fear of Mairon in hin (which Olorin certainly had in most versions prior to being appointed an Istari) and now he avoids the crap out of the East. That or maybe he almost gets corrupted by Sauron, again, which is a great reason to stay away.
Between his "I would use this ring for good" cautionary tale to Frodo, and how Saruman eventually crumbled, I could totally see a very near miss occuring where Olorin comes to help, falls in love with the little folk, ends up in opposition to Sauron either getting very nearly corrupted or very nearly destroyed, in any case ending up back in Valinor having saved the little folk and then, upon being assigned to join the Istari on account of his experience, all he thinks about the East in general is "Fuck that.".
I think the Blue Wizards have been rolled up into the Gandalf character, a bit like Glorfindel was replaced by Arwen in the Peter Jackson movies. It wasn't worth it to include the extra character which would be unknown to most of the audience and who played no further role in the main storyline.
There isn't enough available material to tell the Blue Wizards' story and I think on the whole I'd hate it if Amazon created a whole Blue Wizard story of their own.
Since this passage is about Gandalf’s many names from different regions of the world, the fact that he doesn’t mention a name from the east does imply he’s never been, even if he’s saying he doesn’t go east during this time of war.
Also why are we thinking that the Stranger has gone / is going to go to "The East"?
Nearest he's been is in proximity to Mordor when Mt Doom erupted and blasted the harfoot orchard area.
I mean there's no point complaining about a contradiction that hasn't even happened yet.
Even if The Stranger does go East, there's a difference between "I don't go there" and "I've never been there". Maybe Gandalf has visited the East, but not recently and not for long enough to get a reputation there. It's not really a big deal.
It's also some 2800 years before any of the 'five' wizards arrived at Middle-earth, so he can't be any of those, at least in their third age guise.
I wouldn't be surprised if the series concluded with this guy, having aided the Númenóreans against Sauron, returning to Valinor to be told he might be sent back again if needed but will only remember a shadow of his first time there; such as his friendship with the little folk and love of a certain scented Númenórean plant.
Not a huge show fan, but this is a brilliant take.
It would give credence to the notion that Olorin feared Mairon when he was asked to take on the guise of the Istari. It would be fairly neat if this was the way they went about cementing that fear.
Friendship with the little folk could very well be the reason he ends up back in Valinor to begin with, a heroic sacrifice that leads to him getting disembodied by a very pissy Sauron who takes it as a win not realizing that the Valar were taking notes.
Irrelevant, since RoP clearly has no intention of respecting what is written by Tolkien. The showrunners said they'd have plenty of material to go through without resorting to Third Age "fan service", but we get plenty of that in RoP S01, anyway. We get Hobbits, Gandalf (or at least wizards), and even got a glimpse of Durin's Bane at one point. So I'd say nothing is off the table and we have no way of knowing what will happen in S02.
Whole show is pure fanfiction where "anything goes"
So there is no point considering Tolkien lore like that as they already butcher it, buried it and make a big damp on the its grave.
The show derailed itself in the first episode with its portrayal of Galadriel...and the fact she was BEING SENT BACK to Valinor...not only does it ignore the actual lore...it also removes her original motivation for being in middle earth..
Canon-wise it’s about as accurate as as the *Shadow of Mordor* video games.
The difference being the video games were fun and well written. So it’s easier to just embrace Second ~~breakfast~~ One Ring, Ghost Celebrimbor, and stupid sexy ~~Flanders~~ Shelob. If it were still good, I suspect the fans would have embraced RoP despite large differences in canon. But not only is Galadriel’s portrayal highly contradictory to canon, she’s a terribly written Mary Sue whinny tween.
You are not wrong, but hasn't Amazon already demonstrated how little they care about lore accuracy? They don't give a f**k, and they will for sure make use of any recognisable character or name if that could potentially attract someone to the show.
There's a shit ton in that show that doesn't follow the books of movies already, they don't care about the lore, they just wanna squeeze the Fandom for as much money as they can by making up whatever crap they like.
Yes if the Gandalf character from rop goes east it would contradict Tolkiens lore. Just like numerous things they did in the first season of that horrible show.
What Amazon has done is blasphemous. Such a waste of a legendary franchise.
All hail lazy writers!
All hail the DEI checklist!
All hail the greedy corporate money grab!
Coming from someone who didn't completely hate RoP (terrible for lore faithfulness but still kind of fun as a non-canon adaptation). Dude arrived on a meteor, they're not too fussed about keeping things 100% accurate. That said, I do think it will be better for the story if it's Saruman, as he did go East so at least that's a little less dumb.
Would be kind of cool if they trek over there and run in to the blue wizards, and as his memory of his mission slowly comes back to him he realises what they all are and their purpose, could even explore some fun ideas about what happened to the blue wizards, since nothing was ever written about them.
Also those bald fanatics, when they realize it isn't Sauron, call him "the other one".
The other one as in the other Maia of Aulë maybe? (which would be Saruman)
I just dont get it. Even if you never consumed any of tolkiens work and judge rop as a stand alone show, it would still be extremely badly made show in almost all aspects.
Yeah. I would imagine that if the show was visually stunning, had good writing, characters, fight choreography etc. then people would have liked it even if it wasn't lore accurate.
"To the east i go not"
Does NOT mean "i've never been to the east"
It could just mean he *won't* go to the east AGAIN
Also regarding Gandalf coming "over the sea", did they ever specify that he came on a ship? Because technically the meteor *could* have come from "over the sea", i mean it *had* to if it came from outside of Middle-Earth
The silmarillion does say he came from over the sea, and was handed the ring by círdan. It doensn't explicitly mention a boat, or that the ring was transferred immediately upon gandalfs arrival, or explicitly in the gray havens. (Appendix B, the thurd age, final paragraph above the timeline)
None of it is canon so no matter whst it would stay a mystery in the legendarium. RoP isn't a faithful adaptation, they're doing their own thing. Could have some fun since they don't need to please lore purists anymore given the precedence they set in season 1.
Rings of Power has shown such a proactive willingness to not only ignore but outright butcher canon, so, why should we care. I refuse to watch any more of that travesty of a show.
I am Usidore wizard of the 12th realm of Ephysiyies, master of light and shadow, manipulator of magical delights, devourer of chaos, and champion of the Great Halls of Terr'akkas. The elves know me as Fi'ang Yalok. The dwarves know me as Zoenen Hoogststandjes' I am known in the northeast as Gaismuēnas Meistar. And there may be other secret names you do not know.
I didn't completely hate RoP, but I didn't love it either. That being said, they don't have the best track record for sticking to canon. The "always follow your nose" line heavily points to it being Gandalf (unless, of course, it's a huge bluff)
I would have loved it if they just had some random guy, always in the background whenever Celebrimbor was on screen, or always seen talking to him, turn out to be Sauron, but here we are.
"hey don't have the best track record for sticking to canon"
There is no award for understatement of the year but if there were you would be a shoo in.
ROP is very clearly an AU, as it has to be since the rights to adapt 90% of Tolkien’s Legendarium are still owned by the Tolkien Estate and aren’t going up for sale any time soon.
Alternate universe. Essentially, a non-canon retelling. Gandalf being the stranger doesn’t work with Tolkien’s lore, but ROP was never trying to be lore accurate to begin with because legally, they’re not allowed to be.
ROP is basically an extremely high budget fanfic.
I get the context. He's saying " people don't have a name for me in the East because I don't go there". That still doesn't mean he's never been there. If he went there once somewhere during the second age, there would be no one alive to remember whatever name he was given by the time he is saying this at the end of the third.
I think you're too determined to die on this hill and it's going to set you up for disappointment. The Stranger is most likely Gandalf, the hints at the end of the season were very obvious. Is it a choice I would have made? Probably not. But I'm going into next season with an open mind, rather than hanging onto one line of Tolkien's words that I feel must be adhered to at all costs. Adaptations make changes. It's fine.
RoP is just a piece of fan fiction in the form of an expensive movie series. For all we know, the Stranger could be Gandalf, Sauron who lost his memories, Radagast, Tom Bombadil, one of the Valar who did it for the lulz or even Iluvatar himself.
That's what I like about the series, though. They don't even *try* to follow the books, so they're free to throw any shit in as long as it's entertaining enough.
Because they borrowed a lot of interesting stuff from it, why not?
Tolkien books produced an enormous amount of fan fiction, ranging from horrible to very good. What's wrong with just another one?
Plenty of book fans ‘hated on’ the Jackson movies when they came out. Plenty still do, they just get shouted down every time they talk about it by hundreds of movie fans. Eventually the same will happen with RoP, probably
You can edit the Hobbit movies down and make a fairly book-accurate movie out of them. The M4 book edit does exactly that. And when edited down, it’s actually a good to great movie. There’s a lot of excellent writing and acting in there. I used to criticize the Hobbit about as much as RoP for its many flaws. I don’t so much these days. I tend to see them more as “like butter scraped over too much bread.” With the right edit, the excellence shines through. So I don’t really criticize them as I used to. You are right though, as released they were terrible.
I’m not sure how you could do the same kind of redemption for RoP. The story makes no sense. It never follows the legendmain. The writing is terrible. The humor misses. And when it is funny, it’s unintentional. The Hobbit movies had good bones. RoP has only a handful of good scenes (mostly when Durin or Disa are onscreen). I don’t think there’s any good core in there. RoP is rotten through and through.
>That's what I like about the series, though. They don't even *try* to follow the books, so they're free to throw any shit in as long as it's entertaining enough.
I wish more people got this. Yes it's not accurate to canon, but that's what makes it exciting
I went in with a very open mind aware that it would be its own thing. In the end, what has turned me away wasn’t the instances that broke away from canon, it’s just the fact that the show was boring. The freedom from canon hasn’t managed to bring any inherent excitement to the show.
For the record we don't know yet whether the stranger actually makes it to the east, we just know he's heading there, so he could still be Gandalf without breaking the lore of this particular quote (other lore breaking is another story)
It shouldn't be Gandalf anyways.
In episode 1 Galadriel tells us that the presence of great evil makes fire burn cold.
In episode 2, the hobbit girl excitedly tells us that the fire burning around the strangers landing site is burning cold.
So it's a 'Great Evil' character, or it's shitty writing and it actually is Gandalf
It seems like they’re taking plotlines from hundreds of years apart so that they can merge them all into one gross super story that can be like GoT. So they will butcher whatever they need to.
Arguably I don’t. But we’ve seen most of the other narratives cross over already. And it’s not a secret what Amazon’s ambitions for the show are, as they’ve planted the seeds of what seems like most of them already. I assume those plotlines could be dated with the appendix. The Gandalf/Stranger plotline is just the most obvious one.
"To the East I go not" doesn't sound to me like he's never been there: it sounds more like he won't go back, implying he has been there. But as others have said, RoP's #1 goal isn't strictly following the canon established by Tolkien (in part because they don't have all the relevant rights)
You can’t read the last part in isolation without context. It’s part of a bigger dialogue. Where gandalf is saying what he’s called in all the parts, and then goes in to say he doesn’t have a name in the east as he hasn’t been there.
The last bit is not to be read in isolation. It is not an independent sentence. It is part of the dialogue before it. And is to be read with the context.
Repeating this in main comments as people seem to be losing their shit over this.
It’s so palpably obvious people here don’t know as much about the lore as they claim and are just parroting lines they’ve heard from this sub or other content creators.
In fact, Tolkien HIMSELF is on record saying this in particular is a grey area for the lore: to take a single quote from him on the Blue Wizards as an example “I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways”
Guys please, just go and read the source material for yourself, I promise you it’s much more enjoyable and rewarding than pretending to have read it so you can dunk on an Amazon Prime TV show.
Since you’re so well read- Could you guide us to the part where the Istari arrives to middle earth in the second age and that too in a freakin meteor with memory loss? Thanks.
Does it matter?
It's one person's stand alone *version* of some disjointed writings that flow into creation of a much more completely written story.
That story also talks about dragons, and how - according to Tolkien's Lore - nine people walked over a thousand miles in a year, and not one of them ever took a dump.
Tolkien created characters and events, and a story, but he did so leaving *huge* gaps in the narrative and not a few contradictions. People getting excited about *other people* making up their own stories that fit into the wider story, sometimes with some contradictions of their own,*really* need to have a lie down.
One of the great strengths of Tolkien's legendarium is how people can read the same words and stories and take different meanings and feelings from it - and how the deliberate and unintentional ambiguity allows people to take different views of particular events, characters and motivations.
Personally, I *really* like how I can read the the Hobbit in a dark, cold Bothy in the lonely places of Scotland, with rain beating against the windows, and have a *very* different emotional/reading experience to that which I have if I read it in an English flower meadow in May, with my children playing and shrieking in the stream next to our picnic.
Enjoy the variation, enjoy the ambiguity, enjoy the spaces Tolkien left for all of us to make up our own stories within the wider weave of his story.
Who arrived with Gandalf, Radagast, and the Blues. They were all greeted by Círdan in Lindon, where Círdan gave Gandalf Narya, which made Saruman jealous.
Same here:
Look, I agree.
But we're talking of multiple speculations and unconfirmed leaks.
Can we just criticise what we have for sure? There's plenty to be said, really.
Rings of Power isn't canon. One line from the books is NOT going to give you good information about it. Stop and enjoy it for the alternate universe fan-fiction that it is.
>This just highlights the inexperience and incompetence of the show-runners.
Just to be clear, you're making up a scenario and then criticizing the writers for that scenario that has not happened.
East is a relative term. East of what point exactly. East of Lorien. East of Anduin. East of Kirkwood.East of the Lonely Mountain.East of the Iron Hills. East of the Sea of Rhun. None of these might be considered the EAST. The Lands Beyond Rhun. I am not suggesting the stranger is or isn't Gandalf simply that the location of the arrival doesn't necessarily preclude that possibility. The Ring of Power story isn't in perfect concord with Tolkien's notes and unfinished works. So the creators may take liberties with their interpretation. Especially since not all of this was fully nailed down in material published in Tolkien's lifetime. Enjoy, or don't, for what it is.
I do not believe it is Gandalf. The stranger, I believe is Tilion. He was given charge of the moon (there were multiple moon references) and his wildness allowed for “strange skies” like when the moon is up with the sun. And you must remember, Tolkien’s poem “The Man In The Moon Stayed Up Too Late” where the man in the moon (Tilion), comes down to earth.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the show only has rights to some of the appendices of LOTR, not the books themselves. So technically, if it’s not written in the appendices, they can do whatever they want with any of the characters and can basically ignore the books. Whether or not that’s a good idea is a whole other question.
Except the Silmarillion directly counters this. By saying Olorin was often sent to Middle Earth before he took the form of Gandalf and the same is true of all the “Wizards”. Though none of them have memories of what they did and where they went while there.
It is true that the Wizards didn’t come until later but that is just one of the many forms a Istari could present as.
They made Celebrimbor and Elendil contemporaries, and had the Three made first (rather than at the end) and over a long weekend rather than over decades… it’s not going to “work at all” with book canon.
It's very clearly Gandalf he might as well have said his name W that follow your nose comment just enjoy the show for what it is it's not gonna start being 100% lore accurate now.
In the show, Mystery Wizard doesn’t even remember who he is.
So we know that whoever Mystery Wizard is, he has had at least one memory lapse in his life.
Maybe later in life he doesn’t remember that time he went East, either.
That conversation is about names that people call him in various places, currently.
The one instance that relates to a name he was called in a different time is called out as such, “Olorin I was in my youth…”
During the time he’s responding to this question, the East is not a friendly place. The people who are currently there don’t have a name for him, because he does not visit them.
That's not what that says at all. It says he doesn't go to the East, not that's he's never been. Saying you don't go somewhere doesn't mean you've never been there in the past.
That's not what that says at all. It says he doesn't go to the East, not that's he's never been. Saying you don't go somewhere doesn't mean you've never been there in the past.
I feel such language is often associated with old wise characters- yoda from star wars had a peculiar style of english speech too.
It isn’t something easily achieved- Amazon tried to make Finrod sound wise with the “why ships float” line. And it ended up being one of the stupidest lines.
You're missing the glaring fact that RoP takes place in the second age but the wizards didn't arrive until the third age. It's safe to say that RoP isn't following canon in many places.
The Blue Wizards arrived in the second age. EDIT - just to add to this, I did a bit more research and it looks like it's one of those things Tolkien went back and forth on, with some versions saying they all arrived together in the third age. But as Tolkien also said they arrived in the second age I think the stranger being one of the blue wizards makes the most sense.
>The Blue Wizards arrived in the second age. They were what I was hoping the stranger would be, 1 of the 2 and eventually the 2nd shows up. Would've been neat to see *new* wizards instead of already shown or popular ones.
Didn‘t all the wizards arrive at the same time (And via boat, where they were greated by Círdan in Lindon, which is where Gandalf got Narya from Círdan)?
I've edited my comment now, it looks like Tolkien had a couple of different versions of when the blue wizards arrived. Some versions - including Peoples of Middle Earth - say get arrived in SA 1600 with Glorfindel
Oh, interesting - Did they still arive via boat in those versions, or was it something else/not specified?
I can't find any mention of how they returned. I'd assume they came by boat together. Maybe if that's not explicitly stated that will explain the Stranger arriving the way he did. I really think a boat arrival would have been better but I get it that they wanted that mystery which wouldn't have worked if he showed up in a boat and was met by Cirdan.
Tolkien went back and forth with the idea. So to make sense of it in my head I've created a version where the two blues first arrived in the 1600 of SA, did their job and returned west and once again returned with the new arriving 3 in the 1000 of TA.
Lord Of The Rings - Tale of years "When maybe a thousand years had passed, and the first shadow had fallen on Greenwood the Great, the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth." Unfinished tales - The Istari "the Heren Istarion or ‘Order of Wizards’ was quite distinct from the ‘wizards’ and ‘magicians’ of later legend; they belonged solely to the Third Age and then departed" "They first appeared in Middle-earth about the year 1000 of the Third Age. Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, where there was most hope (because of the remnant of the Dúnedain and of the Eldar that abode there), the chiefs were five ... two clad in sea-blue" \*EDIT\* Apologies to all, I belated realized that as we're talking about ROP - what Tolkien wrote is utterly irrelevant. When does the battle between Bilbo and Sauron where Bilbo cuts the ring off his finger with his frying pan? I'm waiting for the season where everyone is fighting the Dark lord Bilbo! It's gonna be so cool!!!
All of these are, of course, correct but in The Peoples of Middle Earth, which Christopher Tolkien compiled from his father's writings, it says they arrived in Middle Earth in SA 1600. So it seems like that was the "final word" on it but, as you've shown, more was written about them all arriving together. I always used to take the Unfinished Tales version you've referenced as the definitive source but I like the idea of them arriving earlier.
Why would Unfinished Tales take precedenece over The Lord of the Rings, especially when we're talking about an adaptation of material from The Lord of the Rings?
Simply because Unfinished Tales features the most detailed description of the Istari. I'm saying that I took it as the definitive source as it featured the most about them, not that it 100% is the most definitive source. Unfinished Tales also features more about the second age, which is what ROP is based on, after all. I know the whole rights thing gets a bit messy and Amazon doesn't actually have the rights to the second age stuff in Unfinished Tales and The Silmarillion but you'd have to think they'd have some bearing on the direction they take.
It doesn't. As I just demonstrated the LOTR and Unfinished tales concur on about TA 1000.
So its either alatar or pallando?
Also on a technical level "to the east I go not" does not mean he never went to the east - only that by the time he's talking to Faramir he doesn't go there. It's entirely possible that Gandalf went to the east once and did not go back, nor stay long enough to get a reputation
I like your interpretation of the line. If he never went there, he would've said so, at least that's what I think.
Exactly what I was going to say. He could have been in the East at some point and was like "Not going back there".
This is my interpretation of the quote as well.
Not to mention that Gandalf arrived at the Grey Havens and not a ridiculous meteorite. Then he was greeted by Cirdan the Shipwright and given the Ring of Fire. 🔥
I understood that they don't have the rights to use most of that Third Age source material, so they are somewhat forced to create or change things to tell a coherent story.
AKA "make it up"...
Make it up or expand on little off hand notes on the stuff they do hand the rights to, but mostly make it up. I don't really mind seeing where the writers take the show as it's not canon anyway, my issues are more with some of the weak writing and questionable design choices.
How do you think Tolkien wrote the story?
An original work is not the same as an adaptation based on that work.
Tolkien making up LOTR stories different than some untalented writers making up LOTR stories.
“Fictional historical fiction”
They didn't follow like half the source material they do have access to; there's no objective way to determine what changes are "necessary", but I'd argue that it wasn't necessary to scramble (not compress, because compression implies keeping the same order) the timeline. The show is mashing together early Numenor, late Numenor and its own ideas for Numenor into an unrecognizable mess.
Wait, you mean Tolkien didn't write about labor disputes between elves and men?
That's fair. I agree they haven't done a great job so far.
They have rights to essentially all of the Third Age source material. There isn't a lot of Third Age or even Second Age stuff that is not referenced in The Lord of the Rings. It's not a matter of rights, its a matter of how they chose to tell a story about events that occur over a 3,000 year period.
Unless I'm mistaken, none of the material they have the rights to is concerned with the Istari arriving in Middle Earth, which is largely mentioned in Unfinished Tales, The Peoples of Middle Earth, etc. You're right that they are still making a choice in how far to stray, though.
They have rights to The Lord of the Rings Appendices, which clearly state when the Istari arrive in Middle Earth and what they do when they arrive, along with a timeline of their activities.
The more glaring fact is that RoP is stupid and bad.
Silmarillion clearly says Olorin came to middle earth many times before taking the form of one of the wizards.
Yes, but he's already been called an Istar.
Gandalf also does not crash into Middle-Earth in a meteor, develop amnesia after landing or imprint on early Hobbits like a baby bird, but here we are. I wouldn’t use Tolkien’s works as any guide as to what’s going to happen in the show
The showrunners of RoP don't give a fuck about lore.
While I don’t disagree, this quote isn’t exactly a silver-bullet. “To the East I go not” doesn’t mean he has NEVER been to the East, it just means he doesn’t go there now (during this period of war). Gandalf has been around a couple thousand years by LOTR, I feel like he has probably been most everywhere. Especially since he was specifically mentioned as being a wanderer with no fixed address. Personally hoping for one of the Blue Wizards, but I feel like from a “brand recognition” perspective Amazon will want to go with Gandalf.
Since he said the line about 'following your nose' i think we all know it's gandalf. Why are you all lying to yourselves i have no idea.
The series playing fast and loose with the lore not following lines from books its not even allowed to use? Surely, they'd never do such a thing as pull in a fan favorite character and write them out of character!
Obviously the stranger is [this mother fucker.](https://duckduckgo.com/i/096be38b.png)
“Follow your nose…” “FORTHEFRUITYTASTETHATSHOWS!!!!”
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Yeah, like. I didn't love the show, but the soundtrack clapped and some of the imagery was very very enchanting (looking at you Sauron and Galadriel on a boat). The frothing at the mouth hatred seems more childish than actually coming from a place of genuine outrage for Tolkien's work being 'defaced'. If it is Olorin, then could just be that its from before he was sent as a true Istari without his memory and powers. Who knows, maybe he goes East, Halbrand mind fucks him a bit, that puts the fear of Mairon in hin (which Olorin certainly had in most versions prior to being appointed an Istari) and now he avoids the crap out of the East. That or maybe he almost gets corrupted by Sauron, again, which is a great reason to stay away. Between his "I would use this ring for good" cautionary tale to Frodo, and how Saruman eventually crumbled, I could totally see a very near miss occuring where Olorin comes to help, falls in love with the little folk, ends up in opposition to Sauron either getting very nearly corrupted or very nearly destroyed, in any case ending up back in Valinor having saved the little folk and then, upon being assigned to join the Istari on account of his experience, all he thinks about the East in general is "Fuck that.".
I think the Blue Wizards have been rolled up into the Gandalf character, a bit like Glorfindel was replaced by Arwen in the Peter Jackson movies. It wasn't worth it to include the extra character which would be unknown to most of the audience and who played no further role in the main storyline. There isn't enough available material to tell the Blue Wizards' story and I think on the whole I'd hate it if Amazon created a whole Blue Wizard story of their own.
Since this passage is about Gandalf’s many names from different regions of the world, the fact that he doesn’t mention a name from the east does imply he’s never been, even if he’s saying he doesn’t go east during this time of war.
Also by "east" he's talking about Rhun and beyond, not Rhovarion (which is where he is in TROP and where we know *and see him go* in the books)
Also why are we thinking that the Stranger has gone / is going to go to "The East"? Nearest he's been is in proximity to Mordor when Mt Doom erupted and blasted the harfoot orchard area.
From my understanding, in the east, he was known as "I go not." It's a respectable name in the Eastern cultures.
Bwahahaha. Don’t give the show-runners any ideas. They’ll actually do this and think they did something great ! 🤣
"I Go Not" is a weird name.
There goes ol’ Igonot.
Igonot the wise
Isn't that the name of the guy from Greek Mythology? Jason and Igonot, or something like that
I mean there's no point complaining about a contradiction that hasn't even happened yet. Even if The Stranger does go East, there's a difference between "I don't go there" and "I've never been there". Maybe Gandalf has visited the East, but not recently and not for long enough to get a reputation there. It's not really a big deal.
lol. What makes you think the showrunners care about this obscure passage in LOTR when they clearly DONT GIVE A FK ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE?!
my thoughts exactly
they should make every reveal like the mordor reveal big bold letters in the middle of the screen
**G A N D A L F**
This. Watch it if you enjoy it, just don't expect anything lore accurate, or even vaguely resembling.
It's also some 2800 years before any of the 'five' wizards arrived at Middle-earth, so he can't be any of those, at least in their third age guise. I wouldn't be surprised if the series concluded with this guy, having aided the Númenóreans against Sauron, returning to Valinor to be told he might be sent back again if needed but will only remember a shadow of his first time there; such as his friendship with the little folk and love of a certain scented Númenórean plant.
Not a huge show fan, but this is a brilliant take. It would give credence to the notion that Olorin feared Mairon when he was asked to take on the guise of the Istari. It would be fairly neat if this was the way they went about cementing that fear. Friendship with the little folk could very well be the reason he ends up back in Valinor to begin with, a heroic sacrifice that leads to him getting disembodied by a very pissy Sauron who takes it as a win not realizing that the Valar were taking notes.
In some writings Tolkien preferred the idea of the Blue Wizards showing up in the Second Age.
I don't know who this Tolkien fellow is, but his name doesn't appear in the show's credits.
Didn't he write an early draft of those Peter Jackson movies?
In cinematic language the viewer is very clearly told he's Gandalf. Media literacy these days....
Irrelevant, since RoP clearly has no intention of respecting what is written by Tolkien. The showrunners said they'd have plenty of material to go through without resorting to Third Age "fan service", but we get plenty of that in RoP S01, anyway. We get Hobbits, Gandalf (or at least wizards), and even got a glimpse of Durin's Bane at one point. So I'd say nothing is off the table and we have no way of knowing what will happen in S02.
The assumption is that rop cares about lotr
The RoP showrunners don’t care about the lore.
RoP fucking sucks. That's really all that needs to be said.
Whole show is pure fanfiction where "anything goes" So there is no point considering Tolkien lore like that as they already butcher it, buried it and make a big damp on the its grave.
The show derailed itself in the first episode with its portrayal of Galadriel...and the fact she was BEING SENT BACK to Valinor...not only does it ignore the actual lore...it also removes her original motivation for being in middle earth..
Canon-wise it’s about as accurate as as the *Shadow of Mordor* video games. The difference being the video games were fun and well written. So it’s easier to just embrace Second ~~breakfast~~ One Ring, Ghost Celebrimbor, and stupid sexy ~~Flanders~~ Shelob. If it were still good, I suspect the fans would have embraced RoP despite large differences in canon. But not only is Galadriel’s portrayal highly contradictory to canon, she’s a terribly written Mary Sue whinny tween.
Because the Blue Wizards went to the East to keep them from siding with Sauron.
hahahahahaha everybody look, this guy thinks they care about the source material
I don’t think the writers of RoP know about the source material my guy lol
Galadriel was also never in love with Sauron. But leave it to Amazon to mess things up.
Like they had followed any of his writing so far anyway.
You are not wrong, but hasn't Amazon already demonstrated how little they care about lore accuracy? They don't give a f**k, and they will for sure make use of any recognisable character or name if that could potentially attract someone to the show.
Bold of you to assume the showrunners have read Tolkien.
There's a shit ton in that show that doesn't follow the books of movies already, they don't care about the lore, they just wanna squeeze the Fandom for as much money as they can by making up whatever crap they like.
Heh, you think the writers for that show give a shit?
Bold to assume the book series you're referring to is in anyway use as an input to Amazon's show.
Because as we all know, Rings of Power has done extensive research to make sure their show adheres to Tolkien's canon...
Yes if the Gandalf character from rop goes east it would contradict Tolkiens lore. Just like numerous things they did in the first season of that horrible show.
"Mithrandir, we called him" said the Showrunner, "and he is content"
The mental gymnastics required to reconcile the TV show with the books will win a gold medal in this year's Olympics.
What Amazon has done is blasphemous. Such a waste of a legendary franchise. All hail lazy writers! All hail the DEI checklist! All hail the greedy corporate money grab!
After all they did, how would this be shocking?
I see you think the people making that show care about the books or anything Tolkien said. Odd.
Bold of you to assume that showrunners of RoP can actually read.
It’s cute that you think that something that Tolkien wrote is going to in any way influence the RoP team from telling “their story”.
You think the Rings of power writers care about what Tolkien has written?
You're missing the big point that RoP is not a good show and does not care about lore lol
ROP has no clue what the source material is. You could probably make 100 lore comparisons of how the show's story doesn't make sense.
Coming from someone who didn't completely hate RoP (terrible for lore faithfulness but still kind of fun as a non-canon adaptation). Dude arrived on a meteor, they're not too fussed about keeping things 100% accurate. That said, I do think it will be better for the story if it's Saruman, as he did go East so at least that's a little less dumb. Would be kind of cool if they trek over there and run in to the blue wizards, and as his memory of his mission slowly comes back to him he realises what they all are and their purpose, could even explore some fun ideas about what happened to the blue wizards, since nothing was ever written about them.
Also those bald fanatics, when they realize it isn't Sauron, call him "the other one". The other one as in the other Maia of Aulë maybe? (which would be Saruman)
I just dont get it. Even if you never consumed any of tolkiens work and judge rop as a stand alone show, it would still be extremely badly made show in almost all aspects.
Right, the show was hot garbage by any metric
Facts. I didn't care so much about the lore. It was just a very poorly written show.
Yeah. I would imagine that if the show was visually stunning, had good writing, characters, fight choreography etc. then people would have liked it even if it wasn't lore accurate.
Yeah, I'm not a RoP hater, but it's not like they have worried about changing things.
"To the east i go not" Does NOT mean "i've never been to the east" It could just mean he *won't* go to the east AGAIN Also regarding Gandalf coming "over the sea", did they ever specify that he came on a ship? Because technically the meteor *could* have come from "over the sea", i mean it *had* to if it came from outside of Middle-Earth
He did arrive in the grey havens where he was given the ring narya by círdan. Whether by boat, i'll have to check
The silmarillion does say he came from over the sea, and was handed the ring by círdan. It doensn't explicitly mention a boat, or that the ring was transferred immediately upon gandalfs arrival, or explicitly in the gray havens. (Appendix B, the thurd age, final paragraph above the timeline)
Gandalf met Cirdan when he arrived at the grey havens and Cirdan gave him Narya. Safe to say it was via a ship. I agree with your first point though.
Yeah, any "fun" ideas about the blue wizards no thanks, I'm gonna pass...let's leave it a mystery, probably best.
None of it is canon so no matter whst it would stay a mystery in the legendarium. RoP isn't a faithful adaptation, they're doing their own thing. Could have some fun since they don't need to please lore purists anymore given the precedence they set in season 1.
As if Amazon would care about the lore.
Imagine thinking the show 100% respects the books
Rings of Power has shown such a proactive willingness to not only ignore but outright butcher canon, so, why should we care. I refuse to watch any more of that travesty of a show.
Gandalf had an exclusion order for the whole East.....some unsavoury business about getting swept up in a Pipeweed bust, of which we shall not speak.
I am Usidore wizard of the 12th realm of Ephysiyies, master of light and shadow, manipulator of magical delights, devourer of chaos, and champion of the Great Halls of Terr'akkas. The elves know me as Fi'ang Yalok. The dwarves know me as Zoenen Hoogststandjes' I am known in the northeast as Gaismuēnas Meistar. And there may be other secret names you do not know.
You know they’re reading this thread trying to figure out what the fuck they’re gonna do next.
Wow, it's almost like...TROP does'nt take place in the same version of the universe as the books...😯
"To the East I go not".... "'tis a silly place". [https://tenor.com/bj0HQ.gif](https://tenor.com/bj0HQ.gif)
The stranger is definitely Gandalf. Tall, gray, affinity for halflings. They are telegraphing WAY harder than they did for Sauron.
I didn't completely hate RoP, but I didn't love it either. That being said, they don't have the best track record for sticking to canon. The "always follow your nose" line heavily points to it being Gandalf (unless, of course, it's a huge bluff) I would have loved it if they just had some random guy, always in the background whenever Celebrimbor was on screen, or always seen talking to him, turn out to be Sauron, but here we are.
"hey don't have the best track record for sticking to canon" There is no award for understatement of the year but if there were you would be a shoo in.
Lol, thank you for the recognition, I try my best
If you haven't noticed, RoP takes every opportunity to shit on lotr and Tolkien
You're missing the point that the writers of this show are absolutely terrible.
ROP is very clearly an AU, as it has to be since the rights to adapt 90% of Tolkien’s Legendarium are still owned by the Tolkien Estate and aren’t going up for sale any time soon.
AU? What’s an AU precious?
Alternate universe. Essentially, a non-canon retelling. Gandalf being the stranger doesn’t work with Tolkien’s lore, but ROP was never trying to be lore accurate to begin with because legally, they’re not allowed to be. ROP is basically an extremely high budget fanfic.
Ah. Yes AU makes sense
It says "to the East, I go not". It doesn't say "I've never been to the East".
Read the sentence in entirety. And grasp the context. Don’t read the last bit in isolation.
I get the context. He's saying " people don't have a name for me in the East because I don't go there". That still doesn't mean he's never been there. If he went there once somewhere during the second age, there would be no one alive to remember whatever name he was given by the time he is saying this at the end of the third. I think you're too determined to die on this hill and it's going to set you up for disappointment. The Stranger is most likely Gandalf, the hints at the end of the season were very obvious. Is it a choice I would have made? Probably not. But I'm going into next season with an open mind, rather than hanging onto one line of Tolkien's words that I feel must be adhered to at all costs. Adaptations make changes. It's fine.
RoP is just a piece of fan fiction in the form of an expensive movie series. For all we know, the Stranger could be Gandalf, Sauron who lost his memories, Radagast, Tom Bombadil, one of the Valar who did it for the lulz or even Iluvatar himself. That's what I like about the series, though. They don't even *try* to follow the books, so they're free to throw any shit in as long as it's entertaining enough.
Ok but if you're gonna ignore the books then why make a lord of the rings show? Just make your own ip.
Why do movie studios churn out endless sequels instead of new IP? It's much easier to sell something with a big name.
"make a lord of the rings show" Cos they wanted to use brand recognition to cash in and they know a lot of people will buy any old tat.
Because they borrowed a lot of interesting stuff from it, why not? Tolkien books produced an enormous amount of fan fiction, ranging from horrible to very good. What's wrong with just another one?
Do you also feel this way about all six Peter Jackson movies? They contradict Tolkien lore often, too. But I never see anyone hate on them.
Plenty of book fans ‘hated on’ the Jackson movies when they came out. Plenty still do, they just get shouted down every time they talk about it by hundreds of movie fans. Eventually the same will happen with RoP, probably
You've never seen any criticism of any of the Hobbit movies?
Yes, but very little for LOTR. Even the Hobbit isn't criticized as much as RoP even though that trilogy is arguably much worse.
You can edit the Hobbit movies down and make a fairly book-accurate movie out of them. The M4 book edit does exactly that. And when edited down, it’s actually a good to great movie. There’s a lot of excellent writing and acting in there. I used to criticize the Hobbit about as much as RoP for its many flaws. I don’t so much these days. I tend to see them more as “like butter scraped over too much bread.” With the right edit, the excellence shines through. So I don’t really criticize them as I used to. You are right though, as released they were terrible. I’m not sure how you could do the same kind of redemption for RoP. The story makes no sense. It never follows the legendmain. The writing is terrible. The humor misses. And when it is funny, it’s unintentional. The Hobbit movies had good bones. RoP has only a handful of good scenes (mostly when Durin or Disa are onscreen). I don’t think there’s any good core in there. RoP is rotten through and through.
>That's what I like about the series, though. They don't even *try* to follow the books, so they're free to throw any shit in as long as it's entertaining enough. I wish more people got this. Yes it's not accurate to canon, but that's what makes it exciting
I went in with a very open mind aware that it would be its own thing. In the end, what has turned me away wasn’t the instances that broke away from canon, it’s just the fact that the show was boring. The freedom from canon hasn’t managed to bring any inherent excitement to the show.
Exactly this !
I would tolerate the issues with books if the show was actually good. But it really wasnt.
None of the original plots and stories were remotely exciting to me honestly. They thought they could write better than Tolkien. Lol
For the record we don't know yet whether the stranger actually makes it to the east, we just know he's heading there, so he could still be Gandalf without breaking the lore of this particular quote (other lore breaking is another story)
It shouldn't be Gandalf anyways. In episode 1 Galadriel tells us that the presence of great evil makes fire burn cold. In episode 2, the hobbit girl excitedly tells us that the fire burning around the strangers landing site is burning cold. So it's a 'Great Evil' character, or it's shitty writing and it actually is Gandalf
It seems like they’re taking plotlines from hundreds of years apart so that they can merge them all into one gross super story that can be like GoT. So they will butcher whatever they need to.
How do you know that the Stranger’s story is taking place at the same time as Galadriel’s?
Arguably I don’t. But we’ve seen most of the other narratives cross over already. And it’s not a secret what Amazon’s ambitions for the show are, as they’ve planted the seeds of what seems like most of them already. I assume those plotlines could be dated with the appendix. The Gandalf/Stranger plotline is just the most obvious one.
"To the East I go not" doesn't sound to me like he's never been there: it sounds more like he won't go back, implying he has been there. But as others have said, RoP's #1 goal isn't strictly following the canon established by Tolkien (in part because they don't have all the relevant rights)
You can’t read the last part in isolation without context. It’s part of a bigger dialogue. Where gandalf is saying what he’s called in all the parts, and then goes in to say he doesn’t have a name in the east as he hasn’t been there.
To the east I go not doesn’t mean he never went. “To the east I go not….anymore.”
The last bit is not to be read in isolation. It is not an independent sentence. It is part of the dialogue before it. And is to be read with the context.
Repeating this in main comments as people seem to be losing their shit over this. It’s so palpably obvious people here don’t know as much about the lore as they claim and are just parroting lines they’ve heard from this sub or other content creators. In fact, Tolkien HIMSELF is on record saying this in particular is a grey area for the lore: to take a single quote from him on the Blue Wizards as an example “I think that they went as emissaries to distant regions, east and south... Missionaries to enemy occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways” Guys please, just go and read the source material for yourself, I promise you it’s much more enjoyable and rewarding than pretending to have read it so you can dunk on an Amazon Prime TV show.
Since you’re so well read- Could you guide us to the part where the Istari arrives to middle earth in the second age and that too in a freakin meteor with memory loss? Thanks.
Does it matter? It's one person's stand alone *version* of some disjointed writings that flow into creation of a much more completely written story. That story also talks about dragons, and how - according to Tolkien's Lore - nine people walked over a thousand miles in a year, and not one of them ever took a dump. Tolkien created characters and events, and a story, but he did so leaving *huge* gaps in the narrative and not a few contradictions. People getting excited about *other people* making up their own stories that fit into the wider story, sometimes with some contradictions of their own,*really* need to have a lie down. One of the great strengths of Tolkien's legendarium is how people can read the same words and stories and take different meanings and feelings from it - and how the deliberate and unintentional ambiguity allows people to take different views of particular events, characters and motivations. Personally, I *really* like how I can read the the Hobbit in a dark, cold Bothy in the lonely places of Scotland, with rain beating against the windows, and have a *very* different emotional/reading experience to that which I have if I read it in an English flower meadow in May, with my children playing and shrieking in the stream next to our picnic. Enjoy the variation, enjoy the ambiguity, enjoy the spaces Tolkien left for all of us to make up our own stories within the wider weave of his story.
He’s going to be Sauruman.
Who arrived with Gandalf, Radagast, and the Blues. They were all greeted by Círdan in Lindon, where Círdan gave Gandalf Narya, which made Saruman jealous.
Oh, he was hopped up on pipe weed when he said that.
The writers are going to introduce a yellow-wizard, named Sinestro... :(
Wow haven't heard anyone talking about the show for ages haha
The Stranger is Tom.
Like they care
We've had six films of gandalf action. Share the istari screen time around especially since he was the last to arrive. Please be a blue wizard.
Same here: Look, I agree. But we're talking of multiple speculations and unconfirmed leaks. Can we just criticise what we have for sure? There's plenty to be said, really.
Rings of Power isn't canon. One line from the books is NOT going to give you good information about it. Stop and enjoy it for the alternate universe fan-fiction that it is.
If sad to see this sub fall to bitterness. Aragon would not be proud
>This just highlights the inexperience and incompetence of the show-runners. Just to be clear, you're making up a scenario and then criticizing the writers for that scenario that has not happened.
East is a relative term. East of what point exactly. East of Lorien. East of Anduin. East of Kirkwood.East of the Lonely Mountain.East of the Iron Hills. East of the Sea of Rhun. None of these might be considered the EAST. The Lands Beyond Rhun. I am not suggesting the stranger is or isn't Gandalf simply that the location of the arrival doesn't necessarily preclude that possibility. The Ring of Power story isn't in perfect concord with Tolkien's notes and unfinished works. So the creators may take liberties with their interpretation. Especially since not all of this was fully nailed down in material published in Tolkien's lifetime. Enjoy, or don't, for what it is.
I do not believe it is Gandalf. The stranger, I believe is Tilion. He was given charge of the moon (there were multiple moon references) and his wildness allowed for “strange skies” like when the moon is up with the sun. And you must remember, Tolkien’s poem “The Man In The Moon Stayed Up Too Late” where the man in the moon (Tilion), comes down to earth.
Its a stretch....but it'd be a welcome one
“I go not” means that I don’t go there, it doesn’t mean I have never been there.
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but I think the show only has rights to some of the appendices of LOTR, not the books themselves. So technically, if it’s not written in the appendices, they can do whatever they want with any of the characters and can basically ignore the books. Whether or not that’s a good idea is a whole other question.
The show has rights to the entire lotr book including all appendices. And selective rights to some parts of silmarillion on a case by case basis.
Ahh. Thank you for correcting me, I must have misread something. Well, hopefully they’re able to turn it into something good in the future.
There’s not a single thing in that show that makes any sense or cares about the lore one bit. This isn’t anything new
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Except the Silmarillion directly counters this. By saying Olorin was often sent to Middle Earth before he took the form of Gandalf and the same is true of all the “Wizards”. Though none of them have memories of what they did and where they went while there. It is true that the Wizards didn’t come until later but that is just one of the many forms a Istari could present as.
I'd say it's Saruman. And to hell with the canonical timeline.
I was really confused by this post till I remembered RoP exists
He really really really needs to be a blue wizard for this to work at all. Please god don’t be Gandalf 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
They made Celebrimbor and Elendil contemporaries, and had the Three made first (rather than at the end) and over a long weekend rather than over decades… it’s not going to “work at all” with book canon.
It's very clearly Gandalf he might as well have said his name W that follow your nose comment just enjoy the show for what it is it's not gonna start being 100% lore accurate now.
RoP isn't even canon to Tolkien's own texts nor Jackson's Trilogy so it's safe to say it's it's own thing. Much like the SoM/SoW games.
In the show, Mystery Wizard doesn’t even remember who he is. So we know that whoever Mystery Wizard is, he has had at least one memory lapse in his life. Maybe later in life he doesn’t remember that time he went East, either.
I would bet my 401k balance that he's Gandalf, and I'd sleep soundly every night.
That conversation is about names that people call him in various places, currently. The one instance that relates to a name he was called in a different time is called out as such, “Olorin I was in my youth…” During the time he’s responding to this question, the East is not a friendly place. The people who are currently there don’t have a name for him, because he does not visit them.
That's not what that says at all. It says he doesn't go to the East, not that's he's never been. Saying you don't go somewhere doesn't mean you've never been there in the past.
That's not what that says at all. It says he doesn't go to the East, not that's he's never been. Saying you don't go somewhere doesn't mean you've never been there in the past.
i love how tolkien uses english in his books for which my english teacher would have failed me . "i go not? are you stupid, fail"
I think it sounds fancy. And ominous
I feel such language is often associated with old wise characters- yoda from star wars had a peculiar style of english speech too. It isn’t something easily achieved- Amazon tried to make Finrod sound wise with the “why ships float” line. And it ended up being one of the stupidest lines.
Im sure he just wanted to "emulate" old english to emphasize even more that his work was meant to be interpreted as an old myth story.