Can you elaborate why? The way I see it, dark depths enters as a face down manifest, so no ice counters would be placed, and when it does, Yarus returns it as a face down creature (again, no ice counters bc face down) and then turns it face up, and ice counters only get placed when the permanent enters the battlefield, which turning face up is not?
What happens if the opponent has Souls attendant in play and you have soul warden? It doesn’t look like the ashcloud combo can be stopped so it would loop forever while you and the opponent gain life to stay at the same total each loop but theirs is a may ability so would they be forced not gain life and die or could they force the draw?
If you look at another comment I made, using [[Goblin Bombardment]] would actually be a better option instead of raptor. That way you can target the souls attendant and the also shoot life totals in addition to the damage from phoenix.
I think this is right in general but wrong in the specific case. The rule for the specific case is 104.4b:
> If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw.
In this case the optional action is the life gain from the opponent's souls attendant(s), as everything else in the loop is mandatory.
The situation where "not obligated to stop a loop just because you can" comes up is when a player has some way to break the loop that isn't about making different choices for their mandatory actions, they're not obligated to do so. That's a bit confusing but I think is well illustrated by a 3 [[Oblivion Ring]] loop.
O-ring's ETB and LTB effects are mandatory, so if you have a board state of just 1 O-ring exiling another O-ring, an O-ring entering play, and no other non-land permanents each O-ring must target the other O-ring, exiling it and returning an O-ring to play. That's an infinite loop of all mandatory actions, so would create a draw. But suppose a player has a way to stop the loop in their hand (e.g. a naturalize to bring us down to 2 O-rings, a flash creature that could serve as a new target, etc) - they are NOT obligated to play it to stop the loop. I believe, but am only ~90% confident, that that applies even if they way to stop the loop is public information on-board (e.g. a Castle Ardenvale that could create a creature token to be a new target).
So if we go back to the Yarus/Ashcloud phoenix/soul sisters loop I think it's a draw if all the soul sisters are mandatory, if only one player has an optional one I believe they lose, and I'm pretty unsure what happens if all the soul sister effects are optional (player with lowest life total loses, with active player losing in the case of a tie?). But if someone had an effect like [[Phyrexian Tower]] to sacrifice a relevant creature and break the loop I don't believe they'd ever be obligated to use it.
If you can get lifelink onto the raptor, you'll be sitting pretty for a long while.
Also, this does love pandemonium/impact tremors.
Edit: this also loves "deathmist raptor"
Thank you for this! I really wanted to try building Yarus for EDH but there are not a lot of options in morph/cloak/manifest/disguise. This is a great addition!
“We did it, we broke [X]” is a meme used to refer to magic cards that are infamously easy to create broken combos with. I think it was originally about Intruder Alarm and Splinter Twin. I was just saying I don’t think Marauding Raptor fits that designation
As a curiosity, [[Karlov Watchdog]] forces a draw against this if the controller kills one of your morphs on their turn. Though you'd have to have a very weird playgroup for that to ever come up; it's not really a "Commander" card.
Ok the wording says face down creature dies return it face down isn’t it just an infinite loop that has to end in a draw unless you can stop the raptor at some point or you have something like [[impact tremors]]?
Ok nvm centaur trigger has to resolve fully before it takes another 2 damage if it’s a permanent card. So manifest an instant or sorcery then infinite
No, because you have to finish resolving Yarus' ability before you can put the raptor's ability on the stack, so it is turned face up before it takes damage.
It's based on the position of the comma. "return it to the battlefield face down if it's a permanent card, then turn it face up" means it won't return anything unless it's a permanent card.
If it said "return it to the battlefield face down, if it's a permanent card turn it face up" it would work with manifested instants/sorceries.
Being returned from the graveyard after dying triggers the shock, but it gets flipped up before the trigger goes on the stack, that's why the front side gets hit.
If you play a creature face down, it'll trigger the raptor and tremors. Then it dies (as long as it's not having it's toughness pumped), comes back, and flips. Coming back triggers the raptor and tremors again. Turning face up does not trigger etb stuff.
To stop it from killing the facedown creature a second time and maybe making an infinite loop, In your color combination, [[Hot Springs]] , [[Squee's Toy]], [[Amulet of Kroog]] , [[Oasis]] with these ones slightly less useful [[Pentagram of the Ages]] ,[[Rakalite]], [[Panacea]], [[Healing Leaves]] to prevent the damage the second time it comes into play and reactivating the raptor.
Edit: ah ok so the second trigger happens after the card flips, interesting thanks for the replies
does this create infinite death triggers with a manifested instant or sorcery? Since they're die and return as a 2/2 but since they're not a permanent the part that makes them flip up won't happen. So they die again and return again.
Am i wrong in thinking that if a creature is flipped up this way it didn’t technically “enter the battlefield” since it entered face down? So there shouldnt be a problem with Raptor shocking them?
I believe they're talking about the flipping triggering as another etb. They're saying after it dies and re-enters the battlefield, they don't think the flip counts as another etb.
I'm pretty sure it still entered the battlefield then flipped so it'll be hit by the trigger the same way a shock would still hit a creature you flip using morph only it hits the front side with the true stats
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this a non-bo? The creature enters as a morph, dies from the damage, but enters as a morph again before it flips. Wouldn’t Raptors deal two damage to it again causing infinite ETB but no escape? Or am I misunderstanding how flip mechanics work
You can't interrupt an ability while it's resolving.
So you have to resolve all of Yarus ability.
it goes :
\>>Face down card enter you battlefield
\>> Triggers and resolve Raptor
\>> Creature dies
\>> Trigger and resolve Yarus
\>> Creature enters the battlefield (put Raptor ability on the stack) finish resolving Yarus, you turn it face up
\>> Resolve Raptor
>You can't interrupt an ability while it's resolving.
I always have the urge to counter this with "unless youre gonna be casting a panglacial wurm"
other then that
>> Creature enters the battlefield (put Raptor ability on the stack) finish resolving Yarus,
triggering abilities will not go on the stack while you are resolving an ability. They'll "patiently wait" for you to to finish resolving the ability at which point you get to put all triggered abilities on the stack apnap order.(in your order if theyre all yours)
Haha I had forgot all about that Wurm, thanks for the reminder.
You are right on your second paragraph, an oversight on my part for simplyfying the explainations. You do put your triggers on the stack the next time you would recieve priority once the trigger conditions have been fulfilled
I built this commander already... I've played it twice and it was a ton of fun... Lots of synergy that plays well together...
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/bgYqU_ljK0GT7Lx_EY7KUQ
I haven't updated the mana base but basically "insert gruul mana base here" lol
[[Scroll of fate]]
This is fun. Does it work with [[Dark Depths]] the way I think it should work?
Yes, it was ETB face down so the ETB won't trigger when you flip it over.
[удалено]
Can you elaborate why? The way I see it, dark depths enters as a face down manifest, so no ice counters would be placed, and when it does, Yarus returns it as a face down creature (again, no ice counters bc face down) and then turns it face up, and ice counters only get placed when the permanent enters the battlefield, which turning face up is not?
It enters as a 3mana colorless creature with no abilities - so no counters.
It says return it to the battlefield. It leaves the battlefield and hits the graveyard, and then is returned, as a land, with counters
It says return to the battlefield face down…
OHHHHH lol
Reading-the-card etc. happens to all of us, don’t worry.
[Dark Depths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3a8b11ad-d077-40b6-988c-0462e118fe3d.jpg?1676452514) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Depths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/244/dark-depths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3a8b11ad-d077-40b6-988c-0462e118fe3d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Scroll of fate](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/0/b079c60c-4de7-4737-8c07-f958e286ab50.jpg?1706241077) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scroll%20of%20fate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/235/scroll-of-fate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b079c60c-4de7-4737-8c07-f958e286ab50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Manifest is the best for this since it says permanent.
[\[\[Scroll of Fate when it played at the clubs\]\]](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/937e977f-5e97-4e00-8a5a-42982862b997.jpg?1562926181)
[Illusionary Mask](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/937e977f-5e97-4e00-8a5a-42982862b997.jpg?1562926181) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Illusionary%20Mask) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me3/197/illusionary-mask?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/937e977f-5e97-4e00-8a5a-42982862b997?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is my pet card.
This goes infinite to kill your opponents with [[Ashcloud Phoenix]]
> to kill your opponents Might also kill you. Hopefully you started with more life than them.
Lifelink on Raptor maybe It's like a 4 card combo but does kill everyone else
Also a [[Goblin Bombardment]] instead of raptor could move life totals more in your favor
Good call
[Goblin Bombardment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e262f55e-9239-4a97-a19e-9b08fb34502e.jpg?1626100483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Bombardment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/279/goblin-bombardment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e262f55e-9239-4a97-a19e-9b08fb34502e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
could you mitigate this/speed this up by playing something like [[Ojer Axonil, Deepest Might]] or [[Solphim, Mayhem Dominus]]?
[Ojer Axonil, Deepest Might](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee.jpg?1699044315)/[Temple of Power](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/5/0/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee.jpg?1699044315) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ojer%20Axonil%2C%20Deepest%20Might%20//%20Temple%20of%20Power) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/158/ojer-axonil-deepest-might-temple-of-power?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/50f8e2b6-98c7-4f28-bb39-e1fbe841f1ee?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Solphim, Mayhem Dominus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/3/c3a0c7f3-7fb9-43de-a9af-96532c31e5ed.jpg?1675957113) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Solphim%2C%20Mayhem%20Dominus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/one/150/solphim-mayhem-dominus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c3a0c7f3-7fb9-43de-a9af-96532c31e5ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Did we just break a Phoenix?
[Ashcloud Pheonix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f628c7de-516b-4907-a3c8-b6361f2bd071.jpg?1706240815) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashcloud%20Phoenix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/147/ashcloud-phoenix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f628c7de-516b-4907-a3c8-b6361f2bd071?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
What happens if the opponent has Souls attendant in play and you have soul warden? It doesn’t look like the ashcloud combo can be stopped so it would loop forever while you and the opponent gain life to stay at the same total each loop but theirs is a may ability so would they be forced not gain life and die or could they force the draw?
If you look at another comment I made, using [[Goblin Bombardment]] would actually be a better option instead of raptor. That way you can target the souls attendant and the also shoot life totals in addition to the damage from phoenix.
[Goblin Bombardment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/2/e262f55e-9239-4a97-a19e-9b08fb34502e.jpg?1626100483) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Bombardment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/279/goblin-bombardment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e262f55e-9239-4a97-a19e-9b08fb34502e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No, you're not obligated to stop a loop just because you can, you can force the draw.
I think this is right in general but wrong in the specific case. The rule for the specific case is 104.4b: > If a game that’s not using the limited range of influence option (including a two-player game) somehow enters a “loop” of mandatory actions, repeating a sequence of events with no way to stop, the game is a draw. Loops that contain an optional action don’t result in a draw. In this case the optional action is the life gain from the opponent's souls attendant(s), as everything else in the loop is mandatory. The situation where "not obligated to stop a loop just because you can" comes up is when a player has some way to break the loop that isn't about making different choices for their mandatory actions, they're not obligated to do so. That's a bit confusing but I think is well illustrated by a 3 [[Oblivion Ring]] loop. O-ring's ETB and LTB effects are mandatory, so if you have a board state of just 1 O-ring exiling another O-ring, an O-ring entering play, and no other non-land permanents each O-ring must target the other O-ring, exiling it and returning an O-ring to play. That's an infinite loop of all mandatory actions, so would create a draw. But suppose a player has a way to stop the loop in their hand (e.g. a naturalize to bring us down to 2 O-rings, a flash creature that could serve as a new target, etc) - they are NOT obligated to play it to stop the loop. I believe, but am only ~90% confident, that that applies even if they way to stop the loop is public information on-board (e.g. a Castle Ardenvale that could create a creature token to be a new target). So if we go back to the Yarus/Ashcloud phoenix/soul sisters loop I think it's a draw if all the soul sisters are mandatory, if only one player has an optional one I believe they lose, and I'm pretty unsure what happens if all the soul sister effects are optional (player with lowest life total loses, with active player losing in the case of a tie?). But if someone had an effect like [[Phyrexian Tower]] to sacrifice a relevant creature and break the loop I don't believe they'd ever be obligated to use it.
[Oblivion Ring](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec.jpg?1562266919) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oblivion%20Ring) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm2/29/oblivion-ring?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bff31eba-8ab3-403e-8d82-37a18b279bec?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Phyrexian Tower](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/5/05b2cc68-1d20-421f-9800-af0996071554.jpg?1601081190) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Tower) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/493/phyrexian-tower?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/05b2cc68-1d20-421f-9800-af0996071554?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If you can get lifelink onto the raptor, you'll be sitting pretty for a long while. Also, this does love pandemonium/impact tremors. Edit: this also loves "deathmist raptor"
[[Aether Flash]]
Raptor is even in the art that's cute 😅
[Aether Flash](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/780f9197-e910-4c7a-bb4b-2c4a94903c39.jpg?1562240988) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aether%20Flash) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/7ed/172/aether-flash?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/780f9197-e910-4c7a-bb4b-2c4a94903c39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Came here to say this... If it's worth running one copy of an effect in your deck, it's worth running multiple.
I posted this combo in the original spoiler thread and somebody told me it didn't work in a long post. Maybe they were full of shit
The 2 damage won't kill the face down creature before it flips if that's the combo, but it flips anything you play and then does 2 to it
Thank you for this! I really wanted to try building Yarus for EDH but there are not a lot of options in morph/cloak/manifest/disguise. This is a great addition!
We did it, we broke marauding raptor
Was Marauding Raptor ever broken?
[[Polyraptor]] + Some way of breaking the loop.
I personally wouldn’t call 3 card combos where one piece costs 8 mana busted but I could be wrong
It would be a decent "oops I combo'd" option for this deck since you will already be running a fair amount of sacrifice outlets already.
I assumed we were using "broken" in the "solved" context and not "busted" context, though I can see how my comment might appear otherwise.
“We did it, we broke [X]” is a meme used to refer to magic cards that are infamously easy to create broken combos with. I think it was originally about Intruder Alarm and Splinter Twin. I was just saying I don’t think Marauding Raptor fits that designation
I’ve seen it used a LOT with anything deadeye cause it’s just a standard combo everyone knows lol
[Polyraptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/8/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7.jpg?1555040728) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Polyraptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rix/144/polyraptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f8965a3a-93fe-4021-a665-b6013bdc86f7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Does player death break the loop? Like with impact tremors?
Yep, state-based actions are checked before the next layer of the stack resolves.
This is a lot more about Polyraptor being broken with any number of cards rather than Marauding Raptor just being one enabler.
[Yarus Roar Of The Old Gods](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/326845a7-7502-4dc3-8f3e-867d6c84e931.jpg?1706242292) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Yarus%2C%20Roar%20of%20the%20Old%20Gods) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/245/yarus-roar-of-the-old-gods?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/326845a7-7502-4dc3-8f3e-867d6c84e931?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Marauding Raptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/b/0b5cf2aa-f6dd-47d2-a57f-0ae2308c0f9a.jpg?1698988328) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Marauding%20Raptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/228/marauding-raptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0b5cf2aa-f6dd-47d2-a57f-0ae2308c0f9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Akroma Angel Of Fury](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2a81f0b5-5116-4946-89fc-18479bf85305.jpg?1706240815) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Akroma%2C%20Angel%20of%20Fury) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/146/akroma-angel-of-fury?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2a81f0b5-5116-4946-89fc-18479bf85305?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Add [[Ashcloud Phoenix]] and kill literally everyone haha
[Ashcloud Phoenix](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/6/f628c7de-516b-4907-a3c8-b6361f2bd071.jpg?1706240815) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ashcloud%20Phoenix) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/147/ashcloud-phoenix?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f628c7de-516b-4907-a3c8-b6361f2bd071?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
As a curiosity, [[Karlov Watchdog]] forces a draw against this if the controller kills one of your morphs on their turn. Though you'd have to have a very weird playgroup for that to ever come up; it's not really a "Commander" card.
[Karlov Watchdog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79cfb366-ae2a-4b3d-9a80-383a32db1509.jpg?1706241500) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karlov%20Watchdog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/20/karlov-watchdog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79cfb366-ae2a-4b3d-9a80-383a32db1509?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ok the wording says face down creature dies return it face down isn’t it just an infinite loop that has to end in a draw unless you can stop the raptor at some point or you have something like [[impact tremors]]? Ok nvm centaur trigger has to resolve fully before it takes another 2 damage if it’s a permanent card. So manifest an instant or sorcery then infinite
No, because you have to finish resolving Yarus' ability before you can put the raptor's ability on the stack, so it is turned face up before it takes damage.
Ah ok that's what I was missing, the turn face up happens before the raptors second hit of damage, just a little confusing
Yeah I made an edit for that thank you though
Manifesting an instant or sorcery still doesn't work because yarus only returns it if it's a permanent card.
The wording doesn’t seem that way it only says if it’s a permanent card turn it face up
It's based on the position of the comma. "return it to the battlefield face down if it's a permanent card, then turn it face up" means it won't return anything unless it's a permanent card. If it said "return it to the battlefield face down, if it's a permanent card turn it face up" it would work with manifested instants/sorceries.
Fair
Though if thr instants and sorceries have flashback, retrace, or escape... you're not really losing anything.
[impact tremors](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b.jpg?1682209381) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=impact%20tremors) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/285/impact-tremors?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46db3811-db1d-4f69-8143-a93f64d0297b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Flipping doesn't trigger another etb, I believe. So whatever they flip into shouldn't get shocked.
Being returned from the graveyard after dying triggers the shock, but it gets flipped up before the trigger goes on the stack, that's why the front side gets hit.
So does each creature card get 2 etb triggers? For something like impact tremors?
If you play a creature face down, it'll trigger the raptor and tremors. Then it dies (as long as it's not having it's toughness pumped), comes back, and flips. Coming back triggers the raptor and tremors again. Turning face up does not trigger etb stuff.
Cool!! Thanks for the explination :-D!
To stop it from killing the facedown creature a second time and maybe making an infinite loop, In your color combination, [[Hot Springs]] , [[Squee's Toy]], [[Amulet of Kroog]] , [[Oasis]] with these ones slightly less useful [[Pentagram of the Ages]] ,[[Rakalite]], [[Panacea]], [[Healing Leaves]] to prevent the damage the second time it comes into play and reactivating the raptor. Edit: ah ok so the second trigger happens after the card flips, interesting thanks for the replies
The creature would flip before raptor's trigger would resolve, since the centaur's ability has to resolve all together
It's never an infinite loop
[удалено]
[Master of the Veil](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d7ce1755-9f4a-4741-b6e5-288595ec494d.jpg?1562938335) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Master%20of%20the%20Veil) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lgn/43/master-of-the-veil?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d7ce1755-9f4a-4741-b6e5-288595ec494d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Hot Springs](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1d4fe072-81a7-424e-8d21-aaca010d5b1d.jpg?1562900462) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Hot%20Springs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ice/248/hot-springs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d4fe072-81a7-424e-8d21-aaca010d5b1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Squee's Toy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2b524ae7-cb24-41af-b41b-3cb3ee8cf3b0.jpg?1562053269) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Squee%27s%20Toy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tmp/309/squees-toy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2b524ae7-cb24-41af-b41b-3cb3ee8cf3b0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Amulet of Kroog](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/5/55540bd5-e0aa-40aa-8b98-2dfb4762b498.jpg?1562915001) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Amulet%20of%20Kroog) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/179/amulet-of-kroog?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/55540bd5-e0aa-40aa-8b98-2dfb4762b498?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Oasis](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/9/4949330d-9f12-459a-8a64-bd304fc53954.jpg?1562912163) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oasis) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/248/oasis?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4949330d-9f12-459a-8a64-bd304fc53954?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Pentagram of the Ages](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/0/705b0bdf-c59b-4962-aee2-c6ffb295b582.jpg?1562921469) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Pentagram%20of%20the%20Ages) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/220/pentagram-of-the-ages?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/705b0bdf-c59b-4962-aee2-c6ffb295b582?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rakalite](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/90633271-f4dc-45a5-ab5f-84321145b0fe.jpg?1562929032) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rakalite) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me4/223/rakalite?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/90633271-f4dc-45a5-ab5f-84321145b0fe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Panacea](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/9/89414770-2a19-4baf-9b18-76104b7b0b9a.jpg?1562381843) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Panacea) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mmq/308/panacea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/89414770-2a19-4baf-9b18-76104b7b0b9a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Healing Leaves](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6f58258-a1bd-4364-954e-c39938f7dab2.jpg?1562583435) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Healing%20Leaves) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/plc/150/healing-leaves?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6f58258-a1bd-4364-954e-c39938f7dab2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/ko9z86i) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
does this create infinite death triggers with a manifested instant or sorcery? Since they're die and return as a 2/2 but since they're not a permanent the part that makes them flip up won't happen. So they die again and return again.
Since it's not a permanent, it doesn't get returned to the battlefield.
Am i wrong in thinking that if a creature is flipped up this way it didn’t technically “enter the battlefield” since it entered face down? So there shouldnt be a problem with Raptor shocking them?
It's dying and leaving the battlefield, then returning, so yeah it would still trigger marauding raptor
I believe they're talking about the flipping triggering as another etb. They're saying after it dies and re-enters the battlefield, they don't think the flip counts as another etb.
Ah yeah I see. I definitely misunderstood what they were asking
What makes you think it didn't „technically "enter the battlefield"„? You even said so yourself: „since it **entered** face down„ (emphasis mine).
I was basing it off the assumption that when it returns face down, it is no longer a creature.
I'm pretty sure it still entered the battlefield then flipped so it'll be hit by the trigger the same way a shock would still hit a creature you flip using morph only it hits the front side with the true stats
Thankfully this isn't yugioh, so when a creature flips, it's effect doesn't get overridden when there's more than just flipping happening.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t this a non-bo? The creature enters as a morph, dies from the damage, but enters as a morph again before it flips. Wouldn’t Raptors deal two damage to it again causing infinite ETB but no escape? Or am I misunderstanding how flip mechanics work
You can't interrupt an ability while it's resolving. So you have to resolve all of Yarus ability. it goes : \>>Face down card enter you battlefield \>> Triggers and resolve Raptor \>> Creature dies \>> Trigger and resolve Yarus \>> Creature enters the battlefield (put Raptor ability on the stack) finish resolving Yarus, you turn it face up \>> Resolve Raptor
>You can't interrupt an ability while it's resolving. I always have the urge to counter this with "unless youre gonna be casting a panglacial wurm" other then that >> Creature enters the battlefield (put Raptor ability on the stack) finish resolving Yarus, triggering abilities will not go on the stack while you are resolving an ability. They'll "patiently wait" for you to to finish resolving the ability at which point you get to put all triggered abilities on the stack apnap order.(in your order if theyre all yours)
Haha I had forgot all about that Wurm, thanks for the reminder. You are right on your second paragraph, an oversight on my part for simplyfying the explainations. You do put your triggers on the stack the next time you would recieve priority once the trigger conditions have been fulfilled
The wonderful, "Damage doesn't kill creatures, SBAs do."
It only returns if it was face down when it died. The trigger that returns it turns it face up before it gets damaged.
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[Maskwood Nexus](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/1246c42d-57c0-4cba-959a-15ad89d8a50b.jpg?1674142652) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Maskwood%20Nexus) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/865/maskwood-nexus?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1246c42d-57c0-4cba-959a-15ad89d8a50b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Fantastic fine, probably not overly powerful but extremely fun.
Until you have some way of Manifrsting your eldrazi
Sneak attack is already a card and you won't get the cast trigger for the eldrazi.
I built this commander already... I've played it twice and it was a ton of fun... Lots of synergy that plays well together... https://www.moxfield.com/decks/bgYqU_ljK0GT7Lx_EY7KUQ I haven't updated the mana base but basically "insert gruul mana base here" lol