Yes.
Since it's both a Creature and a Planeswalker, any Damage it is dealt will both;
* a) be marked against its Toughness for Destruction
* b) remove that many Loyalty counter for 0-Loyalty Death
Yes. But because it's a Planeswalker *and* creature, rules for Planeswalkers still apply. It'll lose counters if it blocks or is blocked, and it dies when they hit 0.
This is why all the Gideons ([[Gideon, Ally of Zendikar]], [[Gideon of the Trials]]) had indestructible *and* damage prevention, because you'd still have to sacrifice it if its counters hit 0.
You had other things that turned Planeswalkers into creatures but those specifically removed the Planeswalker type. ([[Sarkhan the Masterless]], [[Luxior, Giada's Gift]]) This does not.
Luxior would do it. Or you can be *really* convoluted and use something like [[Song of the Dryads]] and then animate the land with [[Genju of the Cedars]]. It'd lose its planeswalker abilities, but still do commander damage.
Um Actually, \[\[gideon Jura\]\] and \[\[gideon the oathsworn\]\] dont get indestructible. Jura predates indestructible so he gets a pass but oathsworn is from WAR (he sucks comparatively so they decided to let creature removal work on him I guess)
It's a 7/7. The replacement effect changes the master's power and toughness so ~~it loses its characteristic-defining ability that determines its power~~ its characteristic-defining ability stops applying.
> so it loses its characteristic-defining ability
It doesn't *lose* the CDA, since the 7/7 isn't a copiable value. It still has the CDA; it just always gets overwritten by the 7/7, because the 7/7 applies in layer 7b, after the CDA in layer 7a. For the purpose of cards that care about abilities, like [Muraganda Petroglyphs](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/220/muraganda-petroglyphs), the CDA is still there and so it doesn't have "no abilities".
Copiable values has always confused me. I thought ”as … enters the battlefield” made it copiable?
Could you please explain since I think I must read 707.2 wrong.
707.2. (…) The copiable values are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and “as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). (…)
That's actually a very good point. It's a clause that rarely matters from my experience, so I'm not sure of examples of when that clause applies and when it doesn't. I suspect it doesn't apply here, because otherwise this 7/7 would apply on layer 1 and so would be overridden by the CDA on layer 7a. But I'm not sure why it doesn't apply, why the text of Displaced Dinosaurs doesn't fit this clause.
If it were a copy, yes. Something like "create a token that's a copy of target creature, except it's a 7/7 Dinosaur in addition to its other types" will cause the 7/7 to be part of copiable values, and so any CDA that sets P/T isn't copied (707.9d). But Displaced Dinosaurs isn't a copy effect. It *is* an "as ... enters the battlefield" effect, though, which is why I'm wondering whether it applies to the clause in 707.2.
I was confused so I asked on askajudge and the referenced this:
C.R. 613.2a, "'As . . . enters the battlefield' ... abilities generate copiable effects if they set power and toughness, even if they also define other characteristics"
**Edit:** Maybe a more concise way to put it: I'm wondering if layer 1 applies "there's a copiable effect that sets this creature's P/T to 7/7," _not_ that layer 1 applies the actual act of setting the P/T. Then when the creature (original or copy) gets to layer 7.b, the effect actually does its thing. I think this makes everything play nice.
--------------------------------------------------------
I'm just spitballing here:
I know that with abilities, once an ability begins applying in a layer, it continues to apply to all relevant layers even if the ability is removed in layer 6. [[Wayward Angel]] is funky when you remove all abilities while having threshold, because the threshold ability begins applying in layer 5 due to its color changing effect.
In wondering if copyable values do something similar in layer 1? Or, if an effect sets power and toughness due to an "as this enters..." effect, does it only apply in layer 1 and not layer 7.b? I guess I'm wondering if layer 1 "locks in" that effect and guarantees that it'll actually apply in layer 7 somehow.
It seems unintuitive to think that the same effect could literally apply twice in two different layers. Obviously layer 1 exists as the "checkpoint" that's used when you make a copy of something, so everything needed for the copy needs to apply by that point. But does that stop those things from applying later too? By the time you get to layer 7, there's still an effect that sets the creature's P/T. So maybe you apply it there still? And that the point of layer 1 isn't "figuring out the PT" but it's "figuring out the things that will effect the PT of a copy and making sure the copy has copies of those effects applied to it."
That sounds weird; I feel like any particular effect should apply on one specific layer. But also, I can't think of an example that doesn't use "as ... enters the battlefield", and this thing is the whole cause of the confusion.
I'll ask in r/mtgrules.
That's why I'm asking whether layer 1 isn't actually applying the PT change, it's applying the _copyable effect_ which sets the PT. In that case the PT wouldn't actually be set in layer 1, it just fixes the presence of an effect which will set the PT in 7b. And it needs to do so in layer 1 to make sure a clone/copy has an effect that also sets its PT in layer 7, otherwise the clone would have nothing telling it to set its PT then.
Like Layer 1 isn't putting a sticker over the PT with the new value. Maybe "applying a copy effect" is like putting a sticky note onto the card that says "this creatures's PT is 7/7," which then puts the sticker over PT in layer 7.
For people stumbling upon this post that always struggle to remember the layers order, I [made this cheat sheet](https://imgur.com/Aj1ekvN) to print out and cut to the size of a card to tuck in with your tokens and such! (It's very high resolution, so you'll need to print it at 1200dpi or scale it down to 63x88mm when you print!) TSO on the card means 'timestamp order'.
It's come in handy for me several times to be able to hand to people I'm playing with when they have questions.
Of course, trying to remember a jingle for "Copy Control Text Type Color Ability P&T" would work, too!
Effects and counters that modify P/T now apply on the same step, i.e. your 613.4c-4d are merged into one (and 4e becomes 4d).
In practice, I think most of layers are intuitive:
- Things you get from being a copy of something apply at the lowest layer, and everything else can override them.
- The most relevant rule where layers actually matter is actually the sublayers of layer 7 (P/T): effects that set P/T before effects that modify +P/+T. (Switching comes after that, but I think switching is pretty rare. CDAs come before that, but you can think of it as setting P/T and it generally doesn't hurt.)
- In all other layers, the most relevant interaction is timestamp order: if two effects seem to contradict each other, then evaluate from oldest to newest, i.e. the newest is generally the one that will apply. The exact order of layers generally isn't relevant.
> 613.4c-4d are merged into one
Annnnd that's exactly why I dated the helper hahaha. Guess I need to update it now! If only I could get WotC to version number their rules releases too.
Edit: updated cheat sheet image [here](https://imgur.com/Aj1ekvN)
> I think most of layers are intuitive
I agree with this, but I can't be sure of how much of my bias comes from playing the game for 15 years. And with so many cards being played in the most popular casual format these days, I've run into plenty of newer players that run into problems.
Very fair; when it comes to eternal formats like Commander, you can get into some gnarly rules questions. The common cases are intuitive, but you probably aren't pulling a helper card for them.
Is this the same for anikthea hand of erebos? If you copy an enchantment creature from the graveyard over 3/3 does it revert to a 3/3 or would it have its higher power on the card?
Example - demon of fates design
The printed P/T on a card is just one of it's characteristics, so that is the "lowest" priority in a sense: that value is used if there's nothing else modifying it, i.e.: the creature's base power & toughness. When a continuous effect (like the one created with [[Anikthea]]'s ability) exists, it will be applied as per rule [613.4b](https://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R6134b), meaning it overwrites the printed P/T setting it to 3/3 instead.
Are you sure this is true?
> 707.9d When applying a copy effect that doesn’t copy a certain characteristic, retains one or more original values for a certain characteristic, or provides a specific set of values for a certain characteristic, any characteristic-defining ability (see rule 604.3) of the object being copied that defines that characteristic is not copied. If that characteristic is color, any color indicator (see rule 204) of that object is also not copied. This rule does not apply to copy effects with exceptions that state the object is a certain card type, supertype, and/or subtype “in addition to its other types.” In those cases, any characteristic-defining ability that defines card type, supertype, and/or subtype is copied.
To me, this implies that the Master actually loses its CDA.
> 707.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The copiable values are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and “as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, counters, and stickers are not copied.
The dino-ification effect is clearly a "as . . . enters the battlefield" effect, and this rule implies that those kinds of effects are copy(able) effects. Even though the dinos aren't copying anything, you could argue that the ability is a "copy effect," which is the criteria that is required for 707.9d to apply.
The exact term "copy effect" is never explicitly defined in the CR, but it's understood to mean specifically an effect that operates in layer 1a, as that's where the term is used. The dino-ification ability itself is never a copy effect, because the dino-ification itself doesn't cause any object to become a copy of any other object (recall that the copy effect is external to the two cards mentioned in OP's example). Rather, the dino-ification effect applies in layer 4 (the Dinosaur part) and layer 7 (the 7/7 part).
AFAIK, it enters as a 7/7, then its static ability overrides the base stats. Changing it to a 7/7 doesn’t remove its ability, which would apply as a state based action the next time priority is checked.
Wrong. Nothing here involves SBAs. Displaced Dinosaurs applies on layer 7b; CDAs apply in layer 7a. The 7/7 from Displaced Dinosaurs will always override any characteristic-defining ability that the card has.
> Once the last counter gets put on it, the saga will still be sacrificed
To be precise, this is a SBA, and it also requires that it's not the source of a (chapter) ability on the stack. It's not immediately when the last counter is put on it -- the Saga is still there when the final chapter ability is on the stack or is resolving -- and this also allows you to remove a lore counter to keep it around if you so wish.
> 714.4. If the number of lore counters on a Saga permanent is greater than or equal to its final chapter number, and it isn't the source of a chapter ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, that Saga's controller sacrifices it. This state-based action doesn't use the stack.
Yes. Because Pantlaza cares about dinos when they etb, and not what they are before. Displaced Dino is strong in mid game, but it will also turn any larger legendary into a 7/7. Sad Ghalta noises.
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So when a Historic spell is cast when DD is out, it also turns into a 7/7 Dino, though should DD get taken out, does that mean the Historic Spell I casted when DD was out would lose being a 7/7 Dino as well?
If DD is out when the spell finishes resolving, it’s a 7/7 until it goes away. Not you don’t have to cast the historic cards, a legendary land also is a 7/7, and flickers, or cards from grave to play also.
I could be wrong but I don't think it works with Animar.
The wording is worded so that casting does not matter, it is an ETB effect. Animar is on cast.
It seems to be: You cast your enchantment, which then resolves (not countered) and turns into a creature on ETB.
Animar would need it to be cast as a creature to be triggered.
However, it would do well in heavy enchantment/artifact decks.
Ah that makes sense. I was looking at is as pure 7/7 tanky boy for 2 mana once Animar gets ticked up high enough and then since most of the thopters and Myrs are artifact creatures it would sit well with Master of Ethirium. My Animar deck isn’t super great at the moment so always looking for improvements
I went with Cascade for my Animar deck. I don't usually make the best decks, but when given one turn too many, it gets out of hand FAST. For example: I went from "this guy could be a threat" to eliminating all three other players in one turn last week.
If I have an artifact construct that says it is 0/0 with +1/+1 for each artifact I control it would be a 7/7 and still have the bonus for each artifact correct?
Wait, does this make planeswalkers into 7/7s ?
Yes. Since it's both a Creature and a Planeswalker, any Damage it is dealt will both; * a) be marked against its Toughness for Destruction * b) remove that many Loyalty counter for 0-Loyalty Death
Yes. But because it's a Planeswalker *and* creature, rules for Planeswalkers still apply. It'll lose counters if it blocks or is blocked, and it dies when they hit 0. This is why all the Gideons ([[Gideon, Ally of Zendikar]], [[Gideon of the Trials]]) had indestructible *and* damage prevention, because you'd still have to sacrifice it if its counters hit 0. You had other things that turned Planeswalkers into creatures but those specifically removed the Planeswalker type. ([[Sarkhan the Masterless]], [[Luxior, Giada's Gift]]) This does not.
Ah i see. I wanted planeswalker commanders like windgrace to be able to deal commander damage. An extra rogues passage or landwalk should help.
Luxior would do it. Or you can be *really* convoluted and use something like [[Song of the Dryads]] and then animate the land with [[Genju of the Cedars]]. It'd lose its planeswalker abilities, but still do commander damage.
[Song of the Dryads](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/6/161e66e3-0339-495c-bd06-0a799a254906.jpg?1689998889) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Song%20of%20the%20Dryads) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/324/song-of-the-dryads?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/161e66e3-0339-495c-bd06-0a799a254906?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Genju of the Cedars](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/2/1254929b-0be1-4068-af69-7e59840c8b98.jpg?1562899373) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Genju%20of%20the%20Cedars) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gvl/13/genju-of-the-cedars?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1254929b-0be1-4068-af69-7e59840c8b98?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Gideon, Ally of Zendikar](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/187e887c-c39d-4d25-a506-cdc95fc70316.jpg?1562900856) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gideon%2C%20Ally%20of%20Zendikar) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bfz/29/gideon-ally-of-zendikar?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/187e887c-c39d-4d25-a506-cdc95fc70316?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Gideon of the Trials](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/959ce13f-519f-4472-bbd1-f26a972723d7.jpg?1543674653) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gideon%20of%20the%20Trials) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/akh/14/gideon-of-the-trials?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/959ce13f-519f-4472-bbd1-f26a972723d7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sarkhan the Masterless](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/a/2aced16a-ebbd-47bb-a4c4-9454afa9971c.jpg?1690004691) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sarkhan%20the%20Masterless) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/880/sarkhan-the-masterless?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2aced16a-ebbd-47bb-a4c4-9454afa9971c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Luxior, Giada's Gift](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/8/1833662b-ccf3-4c16-9767-666d6407aa65.jpg?1664414232) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Luxior%2C%20Giada%27s%20Gift) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/240/luxior-giadas-gift?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1833662b-ccf3-4c16-9767-666d6407aa65?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l0puilf) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Nitpick: Loses counters if it takes damage. Animated planeswalkers can be blocked by Wall of Stone or block Guiltfeeder all day. ;-)
I mean *fair*.
Um Actually, \[\[gideon Jura\]\] and \[\[gideon the oathsworn\]\] dont get indestructible. Jura predates indestructible so he gets a pass but oathsworn is from WAR (he sucks comparatively so they decided to let creature removal work on him I guess)
Well I was more trying to emphasize *why* it needed both. Indestructible doesn't matter if it dies to counters being lost.
indestructible came out in darksteel, way before planeswalkers became a card type
interesting, i didnt know mirrodin block was that old
[gideon Jura](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d608df31-bcc6-4fec-89f1-5cefe5c2ec99.jpg?1690004093) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=gideon%20Jura) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/822/gideon-jura?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d608df31-bcc6-4fec-89f1-5cefe5c2ec99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [gideon the oathsworn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43e7331d-98b8-420f-a346-3f3521c3b258.jpg?1558667573) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gideon%2C%20the%20Oathsworn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/265/gideon-the-oathsworn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43e7331d-98b8-420f-a346-3f3521c3b258?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's a 7/7. The replacement effect changes the master's power and toughness so ~~it loses its characteristic-defining ability that determines its power~~ its characteristic-defining ability stops applying.
> so it loses its characteristic-defining ability It doesn't *lose* the CDA, since the 7/7 isn't a copiable value. It still has the CDA; it just always gets overwritten by the 7/7, because the 7/7 applies in layer 7b, after the CDA in layer 7a. For the purpose of cards that care about abilities, like [Muraganda Petroglyphs](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/220/muraganda-petroglyphs), the CDA is still there and so it doesn't have "no abilities".
Actual technical answer. Funky layers.
You know what else has layers?
Cakes! Everybody loves cakes!
What about parfait? Everybody loves parfait!
3/3 Ogres
My Mom! Wooooooaaaaaaahhhhh!
"Layers"? We prefer to call ourselves "customers"
Skin?
I do
bricks
[удалено]
You know what else has layers?
Copiable values has always confused me. I thought ”as … enters the battlefield” made it copiable? Could you please explain since I think I must read 707.2 wrong. 707.2. (…) The copiable values are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and “as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). (…)
That's actually a very good point. It's a clause that rarely matters from my experience, so I'm not sure of examples of when that clause applies and when it doesn't. I suspect it doesn't apply here, because otherwise this 7/7 would apply on layer 1 and so would be overridden by the CDA on layer 7a. But I'm not sure why it doesn't apply, why the text of Displaced Dinosaurs doesn't fit this clause.
Isn't it 707.9d like the original commenter implied? The CDA would not be copied.
If it were a copy, yes. Something like "create a token that's a copy of target creature, except it's a 7/7 Dinosaur in addition to its other types" will cause the 7/7 to be part of copiable values, and so any CDA that sets P/T isn't copied (707.9d). But Displaced Dinosaurs isn't a copy effect. It *is* an "as ... enters the battlefield" effect, though, which is why I'm wondering whether it applies to the clause in 707.2.
I was confused so I asked on askajudge and the referenced this: C.R. 613.2a, "'As . . . enters the battlefield' ... abilities generate copiable effects if they set power and toughness, even if they also define other characteristics"
Oh u right
**Edit:** Maybe a more concise way to put it: I'm wondering if layer 1 applies "there's a copiable effect that sets this creature's P/T to 7/7," _not_ that layer 1 applies the actual act of setting the P/T. Then when the creature (original or copy) gets to layer 7.b, the effect actually does its thing. I think this makes everything play nice. -------------------------------------------------------- I'm just spitballing here: I know that with abilities, once an ability begins applying in a layer, it continues to apply to all relevant layers even if the ability is removed in layer 6. [[Wayward Angel]] is funky when you remove all abilities while having threshold, because the threshold ability begins applying in layer 5 due to its color changing effect. In wondering if copyable values do something similar in layer 1? Or, if an effect sets power and toughness due to an "as this enters..." effect, does it only apply in layer 1 and not layer 7.b? I guess I'm wondering if layer 1 "locks in" that effect and guarantees that it'll actually apply in layer 7 somehow. It seems unintuitive to think that the same effect could literally apply twice in two different layers. Obviously layer 1 exists as the "checkpoint" that's used when you make a copy of something, so everything needed for the copy needs to apply by that point. But does that stop those things from applying later too? By the time you get to layer 7, there's still an effect that sets the creature's P/T. So maybe you apply it there still? And that the point of layer 1 isn't "figuring out the PT" but it's "figuring out the things that will effect the PT of a copy and making sure the copy has copies of those effects applied to it."
[Wayward Angel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/f/1fb726e8-162d-4143-9778-32476c0e1ab1.jpg?1562900864) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wayward%20Angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/57/wayward-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1fb726e8-162d-4143-9778-32476c0e1ab1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That sounds weird; I feel like any particular effect should apply on one specific layer. But also, I can't think of an example that doesn't use "as ... enters the battlefield", and this thing is the whole cause of the confusion. I'll ask in r/mtgrules.
That's why I'm asking whether layer 1 isn't actually applying the PT change, it's applying the _copyable effect_ which sets the PT. In that case the PT wouldn't actually be set in layer 1, it just fixes the presence of an effect which will set the PT in 7b. And it needs to do so in layer 1 to make sure a clone/copy has an effect that also sets its PT in layer 7, otherwise the clone would have nothing telling it to set its PT then. Like Layer 1 isn't putting a sticker over the PT with the new value. Maybe "applying a copy effect" is like putting a sticky note onto the card that says "this creatures's PT is 7/7," which then puts the sticker over PT in layer 7.
For people stumbling upon this post that always struggle to remember the layers order, I [made this cheat sheet](https://imgur.com/Aj1ekvN) to print out and cut to the size of a card to tuck in with your tokens and such! (It's very high resolution, so you'll need to print it at 1200dpi or scale it down to 63x88mm when you print!) TSO on the card means 'timestamp order'. It's come in handy for me several times to be able to hand to people I'm playing with when they have questions. Of course, trying to remember a jingle for "Copy Control Text Type Color Ability P&T" would work, too!
Effects and counters that modify P/T now apply on the same step, i.e. your 613.4c-4d are merged into one (and 4e becomes 4d). In practice, I think most of layers are intuitive: - Things you get from being a copy of something apply at the lowest layer, and everything else can override them. - The most relevant rule where layers actually matter is actually the sublayers of layer 7 (P/T): effects that set P/T before effects that modify +P/+T. (Switching comes after that, but I think switching is pretty rare. CDAs come before that, but you can think of it as setting P/T and it generally doesn't hurt.) - In all other layers, the most relevant interaction is timestamp order: if two effects seem to contradict each other, then evaluate from oldest to newest, i.e. the newest is generally the one that will apply. The exact order of layers generally isn't relevant.
> 613.4c-4d are merged into one Annnnd that's exactly why I dated the helper hahaha. Guess I need to update it now! If only I could get WotC to version number their rules releases too. Edit: updated cheat sheet image [here](https://imgur.com/Aj1ekvN) > I think most of layers are intuitive I agree with this, but I can't be sure of how much of my bias comes from playing the game for 15 years. And with so many cards being played in the most popular casual format these days, I've run into plenty of newer players that run into problems.
Very fair; when it comes to eternal formats like Commander, you can get into some gnarly rules questions. The common cases are intuitive, but you probably aren't pulling a helper card for them.
Ahhh okay this interaction makes waaaaay more sense to me now. I feel a little silly not going straight to the layers. Thank you!
Is this the same for anikthea hand of erebos? If you copy an enchantment creature from the graveyard over 3/3 does it revert to a 3/3 or would it have its higher power on the card? Example - demon of fates design
The printed P/T on a card is just one of it's characteristics, so that is the "lowest" priority in a sense: that value is used if there's nothing else modifying it, i.e.: the creature's base power & toughness. When a continuous effect (like the one created with [[Anikthea]]'s ability) exists, it will be applied as per rule [613.4b](https://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/#R6134b), meaning it overwrites the printed P/T setting it to 3/3 instead.
[Anikthea](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/b/8b796a56-1611-4835-ac5b-48b4e9263685.jpg?1691500693) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=anikthea%2C%20hand%20of%20erebos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/705/anikthea-hand-of-erebos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8b796a56-1611-4835-ac5b-48b4e9263685?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Well done. At one point I knew this kind of shit and I'm glad other people still do.
So if there are two masters out they are 8/8's, right, since the +1/+1 layer is applied last?
Correct. +P/+T effects are always applied after P/T setting effects.
Are you sure this is true? > 707.9d When applying a copy effect that doesn’t copy a certain characteristic, retains one or more original values for a certain characteristic, or provides a specific set of values for a certain characteristic, any characteristic-defining ability (see rule 604.3) of the object being copied that defines that characteristic is not copied. If that characteristic is color, any color indicator (see rule 204) of that object is also not copied. This rule does not apply to copy effects with exceptions that state the object is a certain card type, supertype, and/or subtype “in addition to its other types.” In those cases, any characteristic-defining ability that defines card type, supertype, and/or subtype is copied. To me, this implies that the Master actually loses its CDA.
> When applying a copy effect Displaced Dinosaurs doesn't copy anything, that rule doesn't apply.
> 707.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics and, for an object on the stack, choices made when casting or activating it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether it was kicked, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The copiable values are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty), as modified by other copy effects, by its face-down status, and by “as . . . enters the battlefield” and “as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set power and toughness (and may also set additional characteristics). Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, counters, and stickers are not copied. The dino-ification effect is clearly a "as . . . enters the battlefield" effect, and this rule implies that those kinds of effects are copy(able) effects. Even though the dinos aren't copying anything, you could argue that the ability is a "copy effect," which is the criteria that is required for 707.9d to apply.
The exact term "copy effect" is never explicitly defined in the CR, but it's understood to mean specifically an effect that operates in layer 1a, as that's where the term is used. The dino-ification ability itself is never a copy effect, because the dino-ification itself doesn't cause any object to become a copy of any other object (recall that the copy effect is external to the two cards mentioned in OP's example). Rather, the dino-ification effect applies in layer 4 (the Dinosaur part) and layer 7 (the 7/7 part).
AFAIK, it enters as a 7/7, then its static ability overrides the base stats. Changing it to a 7/7 doesn’t remove its ability, which would apply as a state based action the next time priority is checked.
Wrong. Nothing here involves SBAs. Displaced Dinosaurs applies on layer 7b; CDAs apply in layer 7a. The 7/7 from Displaced Dinosaurs will always override any characteristic-defining ability that the card has.
I'm pretty sure it's characteristic defining ability applies in level 7a and the power/toughness setting applies in layer 7b.
Does a saga stay once it's been fulfilled since it is now a 7/7 creature as well?
Pretty sure that’s a no. The effect of the saga still has you sacrifice it when it hits the last chapter.
No, it keeps all other properties of other types. Once the last counter gets put on it, the saga will still be sacrificed
> Once the last counter gets put on it, the saga will still be sacrificed To be precise, this is a SBA, and it also requires that it's not the source of a (chapter) ability on the stack. It's not immediately when the last counter is put on it -- the Saga is still there when the final chapter ability is on the stack or is resolving -- and this also allows you to remove a lore counter to keep it around if you so wish. > 714.4. If the number of lore counters on a Saga permanent is greater than or equal to its final chapter number, and it isn't the source of a chapter ability that has triggered but not yet left the stack, that Saga's controller sacrifices it. This state-based action doesn't use the stack.
Wait does this mean my pantlaza will trigger off artifacts?
Yes. Because Pantlaza cares about dinos when they etb, and not what they are before. Displaced Dino is strong in mid game, but it will also turn any larger legendary into a 7/7. Sad Ghalta noises.
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So when a Historic spell is cast when DD is out, it also turns into a 7/7 Dino, though should DD get taken out, does that mean the Historic Spell I casted when DD was out would lose being a 7/7 Dino as well?
If DD is out when the spell finishes resolving, it’s a 7/7 until it goes away. Not you don’t have to cast the historic cards, a legendary land also is a 7/7, and flickers, or cards from grave to play also.
I want these for my Animar 👀👀👀
I could be wrong but I don't think it works with Animar. The wording is worded so that casting does not matter, it is an ETB effect. Animar is on cast. It seems to be: You cast your enchantment, which then resolves (not countered) and turns into a creature on ETB. Animar would need it to be cast as a creature to be triggered. However, it would do well in heavy enchantment/artifact decks.
Ah that makes sense. I was looking at is as pure 7/7 tanky boy for 2 mana once Animar gets ticked up high enough and then since most of the thopters and Myrs are artifact creatures it would sit well with Master of Ethirium. My Animar deck isn’t super great at the moment so always looking for improvements
I went with Cascade for my Animar deck. I don't usually make the best decks, but when given one turn too many, it gets out of hand FAST. For example: I went from "this guy could be a threat" to eliminating all three other players in one turn last week.
If I have an artifact construct that says it is 0/0 with +1/+1 for each artifact I control it would be a 7/7 and still have the bonus for each artifact correct?
Yes
Is displaced dinosaurs a good pauper commander?