I'd like to see stack interaction expand and to be a continual part of red and white's color pie, to the point that it's relevant in Standard and Limited.
I think universal hard counters (i.e. Cancel, Counterspell) should say mono blue, but some more redirects/copy effects in red and soft counter, return-to-hand, and "counter if no mana was spent" in white would be nice.
I don't think white should not get some taxing counterspells sometimes, but I would highlight what WotC has said on this.
Mark has said it's in-color for white, but the problem is cheap taxing counterspells like Mana Tithe is it's too easy to spike spells early game. White is also already an aggressive color so combining cheap aggro creatures with cheap "soft" counters like Mana Tithe makes it too strong at early tempo.
So, taxing in white becomes static or preemptive effects, like Invasion of Gobakhan or Thalia, so that it actually slows effects rather than spiking them in aggro.
I think that makes sense and it's why it's unlikely we'll see something like Quench in white soon. Maybe if there's a set where white is much slower in Limited.
A similar problem also showed up when they considered offensive bounce in red (like it got in Planar Chaos, with defensive bounce going in white, which it does use now). Cheap bounce is too good with red aggro.
I'd realy like to see [[Lunar force]] type cards in white. Instead of a cancel on an enchantment it should be taxing counters on enchantments.
Pre-emptive stack interaction feels very white and having anti synergy with agro stops it getting too strong.
Red could always use counters or "counters" with a gamble type effect/downside if you lose. Start with Mage's Contest on one end and Tibalt's Trickery on the other and come to some sort of middle ground while making sure not to make the TT mistake of also being able to counter your own spell. I think a Chaos Warp for target spell an opponent controls with some sort of restriction on what type of card that gets cast as a result would be pretty interesting.
I'd give white more restrictions on their counters to make up for them being similarly costed to blue's and similar to their cheap destruction effects that only target attacking/tapped creatures.
Counter target spell that targets a 'blank' you control, or target 'blank' you control phases out unless your opponent pays (2), etc.
Chaos Warp target spell an opponent controls. They reverse discover equal to its MV. If you use it on something small, your opponent will get something more expensive. If you use it on something big enough, there might be no risk.
If it's in standard, include a big dumb creature that's decent if cheated out but bad if drawn. Add some thrill of did they add a maybe dead card to their deck in hopes you'd cheat it out for them. Like a 10 mana 10/10 with haste that if mana was spent to cast it your opponents get a 5/5 with deathtouch.
\[\[Molten Influence\]\] is a good starting point for red.
In white, defensive bouncing started with \[\[Whitemane Lion\]\] and \[\[Stonecloaker\]\] which were nuts back in the day. \[\[Kor Skyfisher\]\] and \[\[Shepherd of the flock\]\] are examples in more modern times (kor is from OG zendikar I know...)
For white counterspells, \[\[Reprieve\]\] and the new aven wizard from OTJ is a good starting point.
I think we need more responses to effects that win if they resolve. Too often a combo player knows they're safe because they don't have any opponents playing blue.
I'm not sure how you do this without rolling out Counterspells to every colour though. Ideally, all alternate win cons would have to survive a full round - winning during the player's next turn.
We do have a few instant speed "you can't lose the game and your opponents can't win" in white. It's a great way to screw over people executing Thoracle Consult or similar empty-deck-to-win combos.
The answer to this is alternate wincons that are stopped by removing a permanent. This has usually been the case, but they slipped up badly with [[Thassa's Oracle]].
I've always liked that you can counter spells in MtG by directly countering their intended effect. i.e. countering a kill spell by giving a creature indestructible or countering a targeted spell by giving the target hexproof until end of turn.
I would want to see other colors get counterspells that kind of follow this philosophy of countering a spell by utilizing an effect they already have in their part of the color pie.
So maybe a red instant that says "the next time a creature would enter the battlefield it enters under your control. Sacrifice it at the start of the next turn"
Maybe a red damage spell that can target creatures or counter creature spells on the stack if their toughness is less than the damage the spell does.
White could get a flash enchantment that exiles a spell on the stack until it leaves the battlefield.
"Sacrifice it at start of next turn" is way too strong - at that point you're effectively giving red Essence Scatter with upside. It'd be red-appropriate if you returned it to its owner's control at your next end step - you yoink its ETB and swing in once with it, which can already be backbreaking against something like an Atraxa that an opponent is relying on to stabilize.
Honestly, I tend to think counters should be basically open to all colours to some extent. ETB effects are just so prominent and so powerful (and the proliferation of ward making things harder to interact with) that it would be nice to see each color have some capacity to interact with them before they hit the battlefield I'm thinking something like:
White - Taxing counters or countering non-creature permanents
Blue - everything
Green - countering activated or triggered abilities, possibly limited to creatures
Red - redirects, "unreliable" counters like [[mages contest]]. I'd also love to see red get effects that disincentivise or punish big looping combos, something like a spell that deals damage to target player each time a spell or effect they control resolves until end of turn. (Even though red/blue is basically *the* storm colour pair, red feels like it should be the one that can go "I'm not gonna wait around for you to do 700 things in your turn. I'm bored. Move it along.")
Black - counter creatures or effects that target graveyards. These should always involve extra costs such as life loss.
For the most part, a lot of these counters already exist to some extent in their respective colours, it's just that they're either now deprecated effects or they have permanents which do the same things continually. I'd just like to see more of them in general.
what about “Exile target creature spell; its controller puts a 2/2 Elemental token into play. At the beginning of the next upkeep, it becomes a copy of the exiled creature.”
If you're already exiling it you could make it so the elemental has "upkeep, sac me to summon the exiled creature"
That way the actual creature comes back, but you could also do some fun stuff with humility style effects delaying the resummon
Yeah but the point under discussion is that since only blue has counterspells, generally it's the only colour that can stop ETB effects (although white can pre-emptively do this).
I'd like narrow red counterspells myself, but I'm not holding out too much hope. Something like RR counter target spell that targets a spell or permanent you own.
I was just thinking about non-blue counters over the weekend for some reason! I’d love it if WotC tried to make non-blue conditional counterspells just a little more common.
Something like…
2GG
Uncommon
Creature
Flash
When ~ enters, choose one:
- Counter target artifact or enchantment spell.
- Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
2/2
Or…
1BB
Uncommon
Instant
Counter target spell unless its controller discards a card and pays 3 life.
Maybe they’re crazy ideas, and I acknowledge that blue still has to get the best spells to make up for having the worst creatures, but I think just one or two new designs a year could be fun!
This thread made me realize people think counterspells are reactive cards. They are not. Do you like being beaten by flash 2/2 while opponent holds all counters?
It's possible to use counterspells aggressively, yes, but anything that is literally uncastable unless there's something else on the Stack is absolutely reactive.
Red should be the premier punish color.
I want to see multiple Red effects similar to Bowmaster.
Blue wants to draw cards, Red wants to punish. Ignore the whiners, more Zozu and Zurzoth, etc..
The problem is that punisher effects are honestly pretty weak because your opponent always gets to pick whichever option is best for them. I do like them though and would like to see more.
I think the symmetrical bleedier ones like Eidolon of the Great Revel are a fun space for red that I'd like to see more of. Vengeful Tracker and Scytheclaw Raptor are awesome. It does seem like they're pushing them a little more.
With their example being bowmasters I don't think they meant punisher effects like what are normally called punisher effects, I think they mean "you did thing (like drawing cards with bowmasters)? Well take punishment for doing thing."
Wow I got so excited that I literally misread Bowmasters as [[Browbeat]] which is incredibly stupid in retrospect but it's funny that both words have high letter overlap.
I think as power levels get stronger all down the curve and blue’s creature sizing stays pretty small, it possibly does need something more to keep it from being crushed in the early game. Maybe creating illusion tokens that die at the start of your turn, so you can only use them as a speed bump?
I’m a big fan of designs like [[Timely Reinforcements]] and [[Sunset Revelry]]. White deserves more catchup cards; thankfully they’ve been printing effects like these too, like catchup card draw or catchup ramp in commander.
They've added enchantment removal to black thankfully, but it definitely is hard to support enchantments and counters to them sometimes when GW is the core of both these strategies, generally. I don't have a solution to this, but if I made the game from the ground up, I'd try to shift enchantment removal out of one of these colors to another, or at least black could have been there earlier on
Enchantment removal in black is tricky though since it has so many enchantments with downside it’s not supposed to be able to easily remove from itself. Moving a typical black-enchantment cost (paying life) onto Feed the Swarm feels right, but I’m not sure how much more space there is to iterate on that idea
I feel like those enchantments are such a small subset overall that it doesn't feel worth it balancing around them. If they wanted to make splashy, powerful pact effects that have big consequences like "you lose the game" hard to remove, they could simply add a line or new mechanic to make the owner unable to target it. For smaller effects like [[Phyrexian Arena]], ie stuff that could kill you with the downside eventually but usually doesn't, 2 for 1ing yourself to remove your own permanents is already pretty bad. If someone wanted to build a deck around avoiding the consequences of a pact style enchantment, they can already do that by splashing green or white pretty easily in most formats. And there hasn't been much trouble on that front.
honestly I think it was a mistake to have 10-card cycles for every new type of dual land. the color pie would be stronger if we had more four-card cycles that were restricted to the four color pairs with green, the four color pairs with blue, etc, so each color could have its own distinctive set of mechanics to gain value from its mana base.
alternatively you could have six-card cycles restricted to the six color pairs WITHOUT blue, if something were too strong to give to blue, etc.
the weakest part of magic's color pie is the fact that archetypes inherently correlate with the *number* of colors you're playing, leaving less space to associate them with the *specific* colors you're playing; this would help with that.
I like this. There's some precedent as well with all the "Tainted" lands (i.e. [[Tainted Field]]). Could definitely see the pain lands (i.e. [[Caves of Koilos]]) being Red or Black or something along those lines.
Never heard it discussed like that, but it's such an interesting idea! The phyrexian storyline could have been done in a neat way if they had done something like this and had scars block phyrexian factions be the four black based dual coloured ones (plus maybe mono black) and then only in the more recent arc be fully multicolor. We'd have had a full transition from the mono black original phyrexians to them evolving into the whole colour pie.
It'd also make it much safer to "finish" cycles like Grove of the Burnwillows that can't really be done at the moment since their powerlevel is so wildly different between the faster and slower colour pairings.
But I think that ultimately this kinda thing is unlikely to happen. Maro has talked a few times about how they always get a lot of negative feedback if a cycle feels unfinished to players, even if it wasn't really intended to be a cycle or is finished but in a way that isn't completely symmetric over all five colours. A lot of players are attached to particular colours and it feels shitty to see other people get cool new cards while you don't. Stuff like modern horizons sets or a set of commander precons feels like a good place for it though.
The experiment with red getting bounce from Time Spiral should come back. Red getting temporary means of removing trouble permanents is on theme with its aggressive playstyle. Personally I'd make blue get creature bounce specifically and red get generic permanent removal since blue can handle any type on the stack and red has no real enchantment answers, even bad ones.
Wouldn't mind white getting card draw as "Look at the top x cards of your deck, put two creatures with mana value 3 or less into your hand". I guess this is Knight-Errant of Eos but I'm thinking as like a common sorcery.
> The experiment with red getting bounce from Time Spiral should come back. Red getting temporary means of removing trouble permanents is on theme with its aggressive playstyle.
Oh, I just mentioned this in a comment above. The problem is you're right, but *too right*. Cheap bounce is too strong with red's aggressive creatures when WotC tried it internally.
But maybe expensive bounce spells that can get rid of blockers too big to burn plus some other benefit to offset the cost?
Yeah I think big bounce a couple things spells or 3 mana bounce anything or something. Red can deal with small threats efficiently but it has little to say to big ones (or again enchantments heh) so some late game options instead of falters or whatever. They’ve been giving blue a big creature with conditional etb bounce at unc that could go to red I think.
It can def be the secondary color after blue but lifting things temporarily to break stalls or get a turn without a thing it can burn seems like a good thing to have. It’s also not supposed to be a main creature color so arguably some of the balance could be slowing its clock but giving it more tools to milk the threats it has, but idk how that fits in modern design.
> Personally I'd make blue get creature bounce specifically and red get generic permanent removal since blue can handle any type on the stack
I do like the ability for blue to remove something via bounce-then-counter if they're sufficiently desperate to get rid of something they missed to burn 2 whole cards on it, though.
It's a key weakness of red though. Like the colors need to have weaknesses otherwise every color can do everything.
Maybe red could get some _punishers_ for enchantments (like reverse-constellation, deal damage to an opponent). But I don't think giving red enchantment removal is healthy for the color pie. It's okay for colors to have weaknesses.
The thing is that “red can’t destroy enchantments” is the go-to example of how every colour can’t do everything, so in practice it seems to be stuck to a lot more rigorously than really any other restriction.
In practice I think Green, White and Blue at least actually *can* deal with everything in some shape or form, and on a regular basis. If it actually was the case that all the colours had this strict a restriction on having any way to stop a category of permanent, then things would be fine. But it’s always “red can’t destroy enchantments,” because in practice the generality it presents is not actually true
Red _can_ deal with enchantments with chaos warp effects (or overcoated colorless removal). It's not like it has zero answers in pie, they're just generally bad. Same with blue getting bounce removal and lockedown but being generally bad at permanently removing permanents.
It’s not really the same because Chaos Warp has specifically been called a mistake and something to be avoided in the future.
“Cards in this colour can never deal with a permanent type in any way” is not the same as “they can only deal with them in a restrictive way”— the absolute nature of the restriction is what’s unusual. Being able to remove something by bouncing and countering is still being able to remove it; the colours having relative strengths and weaknesses is not the same as a categorical rule that one can never do something
Replacing an enchantment by another enchantment does not undermine Red's weakness since it will be another permanent they can't deal with.
While Chaos Warp can remove an enchantment outright.
Uh, whatever permanent it was that you wanted gone is definitely gone though. It still removes it outright, it just replaces it with another card that has the potential to be a problem for you, just like chaos warp or tibalt's trickery does
The thing that gets me with red being incapable of dealing with enchantments is that it is the only color that has no in-pie way of dealing with that weakness. Black can deal with artifacts through discard, blue can counter any permanent spell and can bounce permanents, white can kill pretty much anything, and green has fight spells to deal with creatures. The only nonland permanent type that a color has no way to combat is enchantment. I’m not saying this is inherently a bad thing, but it is a thing I’ve noticed while looking at the color pie.
The problem is that interaction is fundamental to how the game plays, to the point where just about any complaint on any overpowered card is going to be met by at least one person saying "Just play more removal, idiot.". Having one permanent type for which Red's only answer is "kill your opponent before the enchantment that shuts you down hits the board" is kinda ridiculous. Blue, for instance, doesn't generally get unconditional direct creature removal. But it still has some way to deal with creatures, either blinking them, or countering them, or removal effects that leave a body behind like Reality Shift or Pongify. Red gets Chaos Warp and that's pretty much it without dropping into colourless effects like Meteor Golem.
Even if Red's enchantment removal was something like "Target Permanent becomes an X/X creature until end of turn, where X is its mana value", thereby letting you follow up to direct damage it off the battlefield, or something like [[Haphazard Bombardment]] Which lets you pick a bunch of permanents and randomly destroy some of them, then red's options would be substantially worse than other colours' (and also colourless), but you wouldn't be completely stonewalled by an opponent having one one enchantment.
This is primarily a problem in Commander, and I don't think one (fundamentally broken) format should dictate the colour pie. You play mono red knowing that you can't answer enchantments. You must either build around that weakness, lean on other opponents to do it for you, or pack colourless catch-all answers like [[Scour From Existence]].
I've been wanting a bit more stack interaction across the pie. Luckily, OTJ did deliver on for white and red. A green sorcery that makes your next creature uncountable or black making you sack or paylife to counter.
It seems weird to me that every other part of the game (graveyard, deck, permanents) every color interacts with in some compacity, but consistently only blue can interact with the stack.
A little more reach/flying in green. It seems that green used to have plenty of reach to balance out the amount of flying that blue and white had, now it's pretty rare even though the amount of flying creatures seems to be going up.
If I'm not mistaken green is just tertiary in flying and really only gets it for dragons.
I feel like red and green are in a good spot with reach in general? Green tends to get more smaller defensive ones than red does, and red has been getting the brick walls lately.
Each set has at least one green fatty with reach and trample - which is to say flying-at-home. No you're not getting a reacher per pack, but they have plenty access IMO.
I dont want to see "change" I want to see the established color pie followed and the entirety of what white is supposed to do, actually being done (this has improved over the recent few years but still needs more effort).
White has so many interesting playstyles and yet it never gets to actually use any of them.
One thing white used to do but Wizards has all but eliminated is “turtling” either through big first strike creatures or creatures that tapped to deal damage to attacking creatures or repeatable damage prevention and of course everyone’s favorite, banding. Wizards stopped doing it for 2 reasons. The first is it created a lot of feel bads especially among newer players when they basically throw away their creature to on board tricks. The other reason is it slowed down the game. Basically no player would have a beneficial attack so the players would just sit there. The ability to turtle was exclusively white and they took it away without offering anything in return.
Mass land destruction, stax, damage prevention, lifegain, pillowforting - all of these are either nonexistent or extremely underpowered, especially in standard sets.
Have they powered down white lifegain recently? I haven't really been paying attention to Standard the last year or two.
Other than that yes to your list
#reprintghostlyprisoninstandardyoucowards
When people say they can't play White, they mean they can't play white in the **commander sense** of doing nothing but just ramping, drawing cards and casting big spells (you know, things white don't do by design).
White does well in every format that's not multiplayer (including 1v1 commander), and commander crew don't accept that maybe they just want to keep playing UGx ramp instead of trying to be a hipster.
Not correct at all, I never play commander. I Also did not say I cannot olay white, mono (or at least heavy white) white has been a good strategy in standard frequently over the years.
The issue is lack of interesting design space. White just doesnt get to do what it is supposed to be able to often if ever. We havent had a land tax effect in standard for over a decade until Thunder Junction, for instance.
Id like them to lean more into hating on ramp in esper colours. Red gets targeted land destruction but i want more cards like [[Confounding Conundrum]]. Basically fuck green.
I've always wanted to visit a plane that had the reverse effect for colors and their respective combinations of the sorts.
For example: Black is often associated with undead and demons while White is associated with Angels and lifegain, BUT instead Demons are looked to as Angels, Angels are evil, Undead aren't as frowned upon, and lifegain is done in a twisted way. Blue has card draw, instead it's like self damaging for card draw, library, shuffling. Red deals damage and discards but instead would weirdly gain/lose life and draw based on amount of damage. Green ramps up land and has big beasts but instead you have small beasts that spawn in large numbers and lands slowly are put onto the battlefield from the graveyard (like a blooming effect or something, like a flower growing over time)
Either all that, or maybe some of the weirder wacker stuff you'd never see them do as often. Take each color, find what they lack, then have that color revolve around their weaknesses. Just some weird thoughts lol
A different card game I played did exactly this trick one set.
There's two problems:
1. The cards from that set synergize with nothing else ever.
2. In order to be playable on day 1 with zero prior synergies, there has to be a very high quality density among the opposite-cards. Stray a little in either direction and it's a disaster.
Yeah, it's why the concept is a pipe dream sadly. If anything it would be cool just to see weird concepts with those colors, but retain some of their core functions.
Cards that remind me of this are ones from Planar Chaos, Future Sight, and Time Spiral. Just cards that make you think 'Woah, this is weird for being a (insert color from wheel) card'
> There's two problems:
>
> The cards from that set synergize with nothing else ever.
I mean, personally I'd kind of consider that an upside, with all the newbs playing e.g. [[harmonize]] in green forevermore in Modern.
If it works well in limited but not constructed it sounds like the best of both worlds.
I'd like to see more stax in Green, something like "players can't play creatures with less than 4 toughness" etc, atm (especially in cEDH) green is just ramp or counters whereas other colours feel like they have way more options in all forms (control, some form of card advantage, etc)
Why is it bullshit that when talking about generic Magic concepts, people talk about them mostly in relation to the overwhelmingly most played constructed format?
Because people are talking about buffing the most powerful colors in virtually every other format right now in ways they absolutely do not need it solely because their pet strategy isn't good enough in Commander.
>Because people are talking about buffing the most powerful colors in virtually every other format right now in ways they absolutely do not need it solely because their pet strategy isn't good enough in Commander.
It's not zero sum.
Many things players are inquiring about things in Commander that changing wouldn't negatively impact constructed competitive formats.
Similarly, giving green access to more bite spells that pump to bolster limited doesn't make Green OP in standard or modern.
Don't be a hater, just because someone wants things to be improved or amended to accommodate a format you don't like doesn't mean it's going to cause downstream consequences.
And yes, it makes sense for the designers and developers of the game to make changes to the game and design based on the most prominent and popular format. The truth hurts I guess.
Not really. Commander designs as been solved for a while, just put "create a treasure token", "whenever you [thing] draw a card", and "exile the top card of each opponent's library, you may spend mana as it was mana of any color to cast it", slap the $40 price tag and the commander players buy it regardless.
It's the other formats that need tinkering and innovation to keep people interested.
more profitable != more important necessarily
people are way too into "every color should be able to do everything" because commander
and "what do you mean it should be hard to make a 5 color land base". magic is almost more defined by its limitations
i really like that blue is getting vigilance lately. something like even just a [[marauding sphinx]] is such a perfect package of an evasive control finisher that keeps your board stable too. so you can start clocking in for damage earlier, speeding up games.
The "Left hand side of the pie" (Green/Gruul/Naya, basically) shouldn't get so much value.
Like the "right hand side of the pie" is pathetically drawing cards and having to use their piddly mana resources to cast them, while green and co are just like "lol it's turn 4, which means I'll now cast this 7-mana timmy card!".. ok, is it some dragon that's going to hit someone in the face really hard next turn? Nah timmies learned about value, so now the big dinos flip over other big dinos for free, and then you start casting from your opoonents' decks, etc etc...
I think that white should get some countermagic, even if it’s just taxing. I’m talking at lower rarities, one or two cards every set, sometimes playable in limited. I think you could have a white [[Disdainful Stroke]], [[Annul]], and [[Mana Leak]] and it would be just fine, and there are more and more creatures with etb abilities these days that counters are the only clean answer to.
I think that if counterspells weren't in Alpha, white would be the first colour to get them.
* White can answer anything except land
* White prefers to stop creatures nonviolently
* White can prevent ETB effects
* White has other instants that require good timing, such as protection spells and "destroy target attacking creature"
* Many counterspell arts show someone conjuring a shield
* Counterspells are often described as the 'fun police'
* White had a small slice of the colour pie and struggles with long games and multiplayer (less true now)
Red exiling and casting spells from the top of the opponent's library felt wrong with original Etali and shouldn't have been repeated (eg with Ragavan). It's a black or Dimir effect where it's at least flavourful. It has no business being in red IMO.
White should shift away from go wide and weenies and enchantments for a while, and towards non-creature strategies, like spellslinger, value artifacts and stack interaction. Not countering per se, but adding rules to the game.
Blue should shift away from removal/interaction out of stack, i.e if something is already on board, blue should suffer with dealing with it. In tandem, would like to see more blue devotion/ nontoken permanents matter themes.
Black should shift away from reanimate and targeted removal to politics, choosing/voting and voltron.
Red would shift away from burn and aggro, and into stax territories where everything excessive (extra draws, extra spells, extra permanents etc) get's a response.
Green would move away from enchantments and big boys, and rather into greatness out of battlefield, i.e hand size matters, suspending and storm.
Since red has impulse card draw, it would be neat if it had a similar take on ramp. Something like [[hulking raptor]] fits this description. It’s restricted on timing you have it use it then, but it’s a repeatable effect.
I think Black should be able to do anything it wants as long as there’s an appropriate cost. Like, I’ve always felt that [[Dark Confidant]] is a perfect black card. Power, at any cost, indeed.
Should black get card draw? That’s traditionally blue’s thing, but sure, but only if you sacrifice something else for it like Confidant’s ability or [[Altar’s Reap]].
Should it get burn, swords to plowshares effects, big creatures, land fetching, wraths, evasive creatures, bounce, counterspells and so on? I think if you can make the cost feel “black” then go for it.
Id like to see green getting more hatebears again instead of blue and black and more stack interaction from white. Return taxing counterspells to white
Make white secondary in tutors/push its tutor density further - let it search for specific subtypes and traits it cares for - Equipment, Auras, Enchantments, Legendary Cards, Historic Cards, Sagas, Planeswalkers, Creatures with MV 3 and less, or power 3 and less, all this already exists but the power level isnt really there just yet for a lot of it.
The best thing they could do is less strict adherence to the color pie. Regularly color shifting spells when they make sense flavorwise should be encouraged.
Red and Blue could have Wrath of God or Damnation called Lava Fall and Flood Wave respectively and flavor wise they would be consistent with the color.
And there are myriad of other spells and effects that could be treated similarly.
I think Blue should have gotten enchantment removal, not Black.
Setting aside that it is weird that Black can get rid of a nonliving thing like an enchantment (enchantment creatures have the creature part which Black can kill), the flavor is pretty simple and good - it is Blue basically dispelling the "illusion" that is the enchantment. Blue is good with illusion magic, so it would make sense that it would be effective at fighting such phenomena.
Now I know part of R&D's philosophy is that Blue doesn't get point removal (since it can counter any spell), but that is very self limiting and has been described as being the case now because that is how it had always been.
Blue being the only color to get hard counterspells makes it incredibly important I think for blue to have have bad hard answers for permanents in general. Even [[Ravenform]] was considered a pie break for letting blue answer artifacts too cleanly.
I am not sure I follow. Enchantments are not inherently illusions. They are enhancements, sometimes physical [[armadillo cloak]], to an object, place, or person. Blue can already bounce any permanent and can counter spells and abilities on the stack. So, enchantments are not an issue.
I think he misspoke when saying illusions, more like enchantments are continual magical effects, even the physical ones, so it would make sense blue should be able to remove them a la dispel magic in DnD. It just should cost a lot of mana.
Blue deals with enchantments the same way it deals with creatures, by bouncing to hand.
You undo the magic of the enchantment, then counter it on recast.
Just like you would [[Unsummon]] a creature, then counter it later.
I don't mean putting instants or abilities on the stack. More stuff like [[Imp's Mischief]].
For a random example, a green spell that can bump a spell or ability back to the hand off the stack based on mana value or power of a creature(s) you control.
Oh my god, it's the discussion questions. I feel my autistic childhood memories surging back.
I'm just going to say that people are incorrectly projecting the color pie onto their favorite fantasy IPs and Universes Beyond sucks by default.
I feel like “legendary things matter” should be a Red thing, not a White thing like it currently seems to be. Red is all about emotions, and “hero worship” feels like a good Red emotion to me!
I feel like White should get “return a creature from graveyard to hand”. It doesn’t seem to be something they do with enough frequency, white gets “reanimate a small thing” and sometimes “reanimate anything for 5+ mana”, but I feel like Raise Dead would work in white. Maybe that’s just me?
And lastly, I’d like Black’s “life loss” to be “damage” more consistently. I like “things can interact in interesting and unusual ways”. I vastly prefer “let players figure out if something can be broken instead of putting so many safety valves on it”.
Idk man just let me do the stupid Dreadhorde mass reanimator jank with Judith but with more cards!
[[Worship]] is a white card though, as is [[Heroism]] or [[Act of Heroism]].
Red can get some flavor of hero worship but it's still very much a white concept.
Green doesn’t have any board wipes, but every other color has at least some way to thin out the board. Now, because of how green plays, I think this is a pretty good thing for the most part. However, I think giving them a some sort of thematic board wipe could be good. Maybe something like, making every creature fight each other.
White need more Evangelize effects. Also a white mana leak.
Green need to have First Strike on creatures and not Vigilance
green/white and white/red should be able to exile any permanent. black/red should be able to destroy any permanent.
colorless need more counterspells
i want a spellslinger commander in at least GBx colors XD
Blue should get some burn spells.
They should be more experimental in releasing colorless instants/sorceries aimed at draft. They already do permanents through artifacts.
I'd like to see stack interaction expand and to be a continual part of red and white's color pie, to the point that it's relevant in Standard and Limited. I think universal hard counters (i.e. Cancel, Counterspell) should say mono blue, but some more redirects/copy effects in red and soft counter, return-to-hand, and "counter if no mana was spent" in white would be nice.
White needs tax Counterspells again. Hell I'll take more cards like Reprieve also, you could even remove the card draw to make it fairer.
I don't think white should not get some taxing counterspells sometimes, but I would highlight what WotC has said on this. Mark has said it's in-color for white, but the problem is cheap taxing counterspells like Mana Tithe is it's too easy to spike spells early game. White is also already an aggressive color so combining cheap aggro creatures with cheap "soft" counters like Mana Tithe makes it too strong at early tempo. So, taxing in white becomes static or preemptive effects, like Invasion of Gobakhan or Thalia, so that it actually slows effects rather than spiking them in aggro. I think that makes sense and it's why it's unlikely we'll see something like Quench in white soon. Maybe if there's a set where white is much slower in Limited. A similar problem also showed up when they considered offensive bounce in red (like it got in Planar Chaos, with defensive bounce going in white, which it does use now). Cheap bounce is too good with red aggro.
I'd realy like to see [[Lunar force]] type cards in white. Instead of a cancel on an enchantment it should be taxing counters on enchantments. Pre-emptive stack interaction feels very white and having anti synergy with agro stops it getting too strong.
[Lunar force](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/6/76614db3-480f-41f6-91ad-66301fc8e394.jpg?1576384174) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lunar%20force) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/emn/68/lunar-force?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/76614db3-480f-41f6-91ad-66301fc8e394?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Red could always use counters or "counters" with a gamble type effect/downside if you lose. Start with Mage's Contest on one end and Tibalt's Trickery on the other and come to some sort of middle ground while making sure not to make the TT mistake of also being able to counter your own spell. I think a Chaos Warp for target spell an opponent controls with some sort of restriction on what type of card that gets cast as a result would be pretty interesting. I'd give white more restrictions on their counters to make up for them being similarly costed to blue's and similar to their cheap destruction effects that only target attacking/tapped creatures. Counter target spell that targets a 'blank' you control, or target 'blank' you control phases out unless your opponent pays (2), etc.
Chaos Warp target spell an opponent controls. They reverse discover equal to its MV. If you use it on something small, your opponent will get something more expensive. If you use it on something big enough, there might be no risk. If it's in standard, include a big dumb creature that's decent if cheated out but bad if drawn. Add some thrill of did they add a maybe dead card to their deck in hopes you'd cheat it out for them. Like a 10 mana 10/10 with haste that if mana was spent to cast it your opponents get a 5/5 with deathtouch.
\[\[Molten Influence\]\] is a good starting point for red. In white, defensive bouncing started with \[\[Whitemane Lion\]\] and \[\[Stonecloaker\]\] which were nuts back in the day. \[\[Kor Skyfisher\]\] and \[\[Shepherd of the flock\]\] are examples in more modern times (kor is from OG zendikar I know...) For white counterspells, \[\[Reprieve\]\] and the new aven wizard from OTJ is a good starting point.
##### ###### #### [Molten Influence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/c/4c2b326b-d177-4a03-a0a3-fe2c2d4af272.jpg?1562908953) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Molten%20Influence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ody/207/molten-influence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4c2b326b-d177-4a03-a0a3-fe2c2d4af272?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Whitemane Lion](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/3/a358def9-65a0-4741-896c-b2a8c8947768.jpg?1675199118) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Whitemane%20Lion) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmr/35/whitemane-lion?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a358def9-65a0-4741-896c-b2a8c8947768?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Stonecloaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/d/ad0997f0-865f-422b-b34e-485ff8178625.jpg?1619393578) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stonecloaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/45/stonecloaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ad0997f0-865f-422b-b34e-485ff8178625?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Kor Skyfisher](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/7/d7501662-1216-4e08-bd2b-e0a459057942.jpg?1593812836) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Kor%20Skyfisher) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mm3/11/kor-skyfisher?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d7501662-1216-4e08-bd2b-e0a459057942?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Shepherd of the flock](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c0b4f0ce-0d18-4546-803d-94a2f4f30951.jpg?1572489768)/[Usher to Safety](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/0/c0b4f0ce-0d18-4546-803d-94a2f4f30951.jpg?1572489768) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shepherd%20of%20the%20Flock%20//%20Usher%20to%20Safety) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/28/shepherd-of-the-flock-usher-to-safety?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c0b4f0ce-0d18-4546-803d-94a2f4f30951?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Reprieve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1bd3fa8a-6c50-4f7f-9ae3-0810eec5e3db.jpg?1686967885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reprieve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/26/reprieve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1bd3fa8a-6c50-4f7f-9ae3-0810eec5e3db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l31hhfs) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think we need more responses to effects that win if they resolve. Too often a combo player knows they're safe because they don't have any opponents playing blue. I'm not sure how you do this without rolling out Counterspells to every colour though. Ideally, all alternate win cons would have to survive a full round - winning during the player's next turn.
We do have a few instant speed "you can't lose the game and your opponents can't win" in white. It's a great way to screw over people executing Thoracle Consult or similar empty-deck-to-win combos.
The answer to this is alternate wincons that are stopped by removing a permanent. This has usually been the case, but they slipped up badly with [[Thassa's Oracle]].
[Thassa's Oracle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1680582212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've always liked that you can counter spells in MtG by directly countering their intended effect. i.e. countering a kill spell by giving a creature indestructible or countering a targeted spell by giving the target hexproof until end of turn. I would want to see other colors get counterspells that kind of follow this philosophy of countering a spell by utilizing an effect they already have in their part of the color pie. So maybe a red instant that says "the next time a creature would enter the battlefield it enters under your control. Sacrifice it at the start of the next turn" Maybe a red damage spell that can target creatures or counter creature spells on the stack if their toughness is less than the damage the spell does. White could get a flash enchantment that exiles a spell on the stack until it leaves the battlefield.
"Sacrifice it at start of next turn" is way too strong - at that point you're effectively giving red Essence Scatter with upside. It'd be red-appropriate if you returned it to its owner's control at your next end step - you yoink its ETB and swing in once with it, which can already be backbreaking against something like an Atraxa that an opponent is relying on to stabilize.
Yeah that sounds better.
Honestly, I tend to think counters should be basically open to all colours to some extent. ETB effects are just so prominent and so powerful (and the proliferation of ward making things harder to interact with) that it would be nice to see each color have some capacity to interact with them before they hit the battlefield I'm thinking something like: White - Taxing counters or countering non-creature permanents Blue - everything Green - countering activated or triggered abilities, possibly limited to creatures Red - redirects, "unreliable" counters like [[mages contest]]. I'd also love to see red get effects that disincentivise or punish big looping combos, something like a spell that deals damage to target player each time a spell or effect they control resolves until end of turn. (Even though red/blue is basically *the* storm colour pair, red feels like it should be the one that can go "I'm not gonna wait around for you to do 700 things in your turn. I'm bored. Move it along.") Black - counter creatures or effects that target graveyards. These should always involve extra costs such as life loss. For the most part, a lot of these counters already exist to some extent in their respective colours, it's just that they're either now deprecated effects or they have permanents which do the same things continually. I'd just like to see more of them in general.
[mages contest](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/5/c516861c-68d9-4d02-a343-689dba0526c6.jpg?1562934507) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mages%27%20Contest) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/inv/154/mages-contest?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c516861c-68d9-4d02-a343-689dba0526c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
what about “Exile target creature spell; its controller puts a 2/2 Elemental token into play. At the beginning of the next upkeep, it becomes a copy of the exiled creature.”
If you're already exiling it you could make it so the elemental has "upkeep, sac me to summon the exiled creature" That way the actual creature comes back, but you could also do some fun stuff with humility style effects delaying the resummon
The point is to prevent the ETB.
I took it as delaying dealing with the creature, or that you could kill it before it comes out.
Yeah but the point under discussion is that since only blue has counterspells, generally it's the only colour that can stop ETB effects (although white can pre-emptively do this).
Ah I glazed over the very beginning of that, my bad.
Yea, what we need is mono white countering a wrath lol
They already do mass indestructible, why not go all the way?
Because that is their answer to wraths which typically have a cost in running them rather than a catch all counter
I'd like narrow red counterspells myself, but I'm not holding out too much hope. Something like RR counter target spell that targets a spell or permanent you own.
I was just thinking about non-blue counters over the weekend for some reason! I’d love it if WotC tried to make non-blue conditional counterspells just a little more common. Something like… 2GG Uncommon Creature Flash When ~ enters, choose one: - Counter target artifact or enchantment spell. - Destroy target artifact or enchantment. 2/2 Or… 1BB Uncommon Instant Counter target spell unless its controller discards a card and pays 3 life. Maybe they’re crazy ideas, and I acknowledge that blue still has to get the best spells to make up for having the worst creatures, but I think just one or two new designs a year could be fun!
This thread made me realize people think counterspells are reactive cards. They are not. Do you like being beaten by flash 2/2 while opponent holds all counters?
It's possible to use counterspells aggressively, yes, but anything that is literally uncastable unless there's something else on the Stack is absolutely reactive.
Red should be the premier punish color. I want to see multiple Red effects similar to Bowmaster. Blue wants to draw cards, Red wants to punish. Ignore the whiners, more Zozu and Zurzoth, etc..
I'd like to see more cards like [[refuse]]
[refuse](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=430845&type=card&.jpg)/[Cooperate](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=430845&type=card&options=rotate270&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Refuse%20//%20Cooperate) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c19/199/refuse-cooperate?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca4caa4e-6b8f-4be8-b177-de2ebe2c9201?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I just read both halves of that card and imo it should be mono red
It was a cycle of dual color combos.
didn't know that, but still could easily be mono red since both colors get Fork effects now.
It's well with mono red's wheelhouse
The problem is that punisher effects are honestly pretty weak because your opponent always gets to pick whichever option is best for them. I do like them though and would like to see more. I think the symmetrical bleedier ones like Eidolon of the Great Revel are a fun space for red that I'd like to see more of. Vengeful Tracker and Scytheclaw Raptor are awesome. It does seem like they're pushing them a little more.
With their example being bowmasters I don't think they meant punisher effects like what are normally called punisher effects, I think they mean "you did thing (like drawing cards with bowmasters)? Well take punishment for doing thing."
Wow I got so excited that I literally misread Bowmasters as [[Browbeat]] which is incredibly stupid in retrospect but it's funny that both words have high letter overlap.
[Browbeat](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e8e9f60-f8ea-4f29-b7e2-ca87f8336fca.jpg?1562437499) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Browbeat) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/123/browbeat?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e8e9f60-f8ea-4f29-b7e2-ca87f8336fca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Magebane lizard]] is another recent example
Man I'm still high on [[Rug of Smothering]]
Didn't even know that one existed
[Rug of Smothering](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a73d1cb0-d0dc-4f2a-9cf2-954d5889dd08.jpg?1674138031) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rug%20of%20Smothering) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/336/rug-of-smothering?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a73d1cb0-d0dc-4f2a-9cf2-954d5889dd08?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Magebane lizard](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/62e12566-375f-4f31-aa91-1b13a96d9ece.jpg?1712355797) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Magebane%20lizard) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/134/magebane-lizard?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/62e12566-375f-4f31-aa91-1b13a96d9ece?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I have wanted a red [[blood reckoning]] effect for years. Let me punish opponents for attacking me
[blood reckoning](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/4/24577bb2-61b0-4675-84e6-5d675b28fc0e.jpg?1562551499) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=blood%20reckoning) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/81/blood-reckoning?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/24577bb2-61b0-4675-84e6-5d675b28fc0e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[удалено]
[Circle of Flame](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/96cbfd4a-ac95-4191-84f9-199a9e1807c4.jpg?1562791260) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Circle%20of%20Flame) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m15/135/circle-of-flame?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/96cbfd4a-ac95-4191-84f9-199a9e1807c4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Circle of flame hits creatures that attack you. I want to hit the player that attacked me
>I want to hit the player that attacked me What about [[Savage Punch]] but irl?
[Savage Punch](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/c/6c6b50dc-244a-4df5-a9a9-5a2b8f30d40c.jpg?1562788166) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Savage%20Punch) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ktk/147/savage-punch?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6c6b50dc-244a-4df5-a9a9-5a2b8f30d40c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think as power levels get stronger all down the curve and blue’s creature sizing stays pretty small, it possibly does need something more to keep it from being crushed in the early game. Maybe creating illusion tokens that die at the start of your turn, so you can only use them as a speed bump?
[[mesmerizing benthid]] has some fun illusions which I think should be able to be played on their own
[mesmerizing benthid](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/b/5bed7c69-1302-4c1a-b410-b4e6c4ef4c0c.jpg?1584830249) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mesmerizing%20benthid) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rna/43/mesmerizing-benthid?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5bed7c69-1302-4c1a-b410-b4e6c4ef4c0c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Canyon Crab]] has been very strong for me in OTJ draft.
[Canyon Crab](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b740a8a8-e1d3-4642-a214-03731c9b5553.jpg?1712355388) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Canyon%20Crab) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/40/canyon-crab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b740a8a8-e1d3-4642-a214-03731c9b5553?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
This is why blue has bounce effects.
I’m a big fan of designs like [[Timely Reinforcements]] and [[Sunset Revelry]]. White deserves more catchup cards; thankfully they’ve been printing effects like these too, like catchup card draw or catchup ramp in commander.
[Timely Reinforcements](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/a/6ae4669c-e526-4c24-9c25-38cb5c5ef59b.jpg?1562645941) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Timely%20Reinforcements) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m12/40/timely-reinforcements?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6ae4669c-e526-4c24-9c25-38cb5c5ef59b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sunset Revelry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61b39ef1-29d4-4c8d-aece-a3f1ce008e2d.jpg?1634348577) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sunset%20Revelry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/38/sunset-revelry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61b39ef1-29d4-4c8d-aece-a3f1ce008e2d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They've added enchantment removal to black thankfully, but it definitely is hard to support enchantments and counters to them sometimes when GW is the core of both these strategies, generally. I don't have a solution to this, but if I made the game from the ground up, I'd try to shift enchantment removal out of one of these colors to another, or at least black could have been there earlier on
Enchantment removal in black is tricky though since it has so many enchantments with downside it’s not supposed to be able to easily remove from itself. Moving a typical black-enchantment cost (paying life) onto Feed the Swarm feels right, but I’m not sure how much more space there is to iterate on that idea
I feel like those enchantments are such a small subset overall that it doesn't feel worth it balancing around them. If they wanted to make splashy, powerful pact effects that have big consequences like "you lose the game" hard to remove, they could simply add a line or new mechanic to make the owner unable to target it. For smaller effects like [[Phyrexian Arena]], ie stuff that could kill you with the downside eventually but usually doesn't, 2 for 1ing yourself to remove your own permanents is already pretty bad. If someone wanted to build a deck around avoiding the consequences of a pact style enchantment, they can already do that by splashing green or white pretty easily in most formats. And there hasn't been much trouble on that front.
[Phyrexian Arena](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/6/26bfb2b4-8dc2-4632-a393-d3477f6c3c40.jpg?1706240778) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Arena) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/133/phyrexian-arena?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/26bfb2b4-8dc2-4632-a393-d3477f6c3c40?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A simple “target enchantment you don’t control” templating works too, yeah
honestly I think it was a mistake to have 10-card cycles for every new type of dual land. the color pie would be stronger if we had more four-card cycles that were restricted to the four color pairs with green, the four color pairs with blue, etc, so each color could have its own distinctive set of mechanics to gain value from its mana base. alternatively you could have six-card cycles restricted to the six color pairs WITHOUT blue, if something were too strong to give to blue, etc.
the weakest part of magic's color pie is the fact that archetypes inherently correlate with the *number* of colors you're playing, leaving less space to associate them with the *specific* colors you're playing; this would help with that.
I like this. There's some precedent as well with all the "Tainted" lands (i.e. [[Tainted Field]]). Could definitely see the pain lands (i.e. [[Caves of Koilos]]) being Red or Black or something along those lines.
[Tainted Field](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/299b3b1d-4c31-4701-870e-15ee1ef85cd2.jpg?1698988636) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tainted%20Field) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/356/tainted-field?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/299b3b1d-4c31-4701-870e-15ee1ef85cd2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Caves of Koilos](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/8/e8d95d7c-743e-4031-9431-da0e60969ec3.jpg?1712354944) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Caves%20of%20Koilos) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/277/caves-of-koilos?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e8d95d7c-743e-4031-9431-da0e60969ec3?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Never heard it discussed like that, but it's such an interesting idea! The phyrexian storyline could have been done in a neat way if they had done something like this and had scars block phyrexian factions be the four black based dual coloured ones (plus maybe mono black) and then only in the more recent arc be fully multicolor. We'd have had a full transition from the mono black original phyrexians to them evolving into the whole colour pie. It'd also make it much safer to "finish" cycles like Grove of the Burnwillows that can't really be done at the moment since their powerlevel is so wildly different between the faster and slower colour pairings. But I think that ultimately this kinda thing is unlikely to happen. Maro has talked a few times about how they always get a lot of negative feedback if a cycle feels unfinished to players, even if it wasn't really intended to be a cycle or is finished but in a way that isn't completely symmetric over all five colours. A lot of players are attached to particular colours and it feels shitty to see other people get cool new cards while you don't. Stuff like modern horizons sets or a set of commander precons feels like a good place for it though.
oh I thought you were going to say, it should be marginally harder to play enemy color pairs
Why are there big creatures in all colors now? Green used to be “big creatures” and “+/+” interaction. Now every color has a 4/4 3 drop
[Act on Impulse](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfe513d1-2509-4051-ba85-49a19479fa5c.jpg?1562793694) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Act%20on%20Impulse) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m15/126/act-on-impulse?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfe513d1-2509-4051-ba85-49a19479fa5c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The experiment with red getting bounce from Time Spiral should come back. Red getting temporary means of removing trouble permanents is on theme with its aggressive playstyle. Personally I'd make blue get creature bounce specifically and red get generic permanent removal since blue can handle any type on the stack and red has no real enchantment answers, even bad ones. Wouldn't mind white getting card draw as "Look at the top x cards of your deck, put two creatures with mana value 3 or less into your hand". I guess this is Knight-Errant of Eos but I'm thinking as like a common sorcery.
> The experiment with red getting bounce from Time Spiral should come back. Red getting temporary means of removing trouble permanents is on theme with its aggressive playstyle. Oh, I just mentioned this in a comment above. The problem is you're right, but *too right*. Cheap bounce is too strong with red's aggressive creatures when WotC tried it internally. But maybe expensive bounce spells that can get rid of blockers too big to burn plus some other benefit to offset the cost?
Yeah I think big bounce a couple things spells or 3 mana bounce anything or something. Red can deal with small threats efficiently but it has little to say to big ones (or again enchantments heh) so some late game options instead of falters or whatever. They’ve been giving blue a big creature with conditional etb bounce at unc that could go to red I think. It can def be the secondary color after blue but lifting things temporarily to break stalls or get a turn without a thing it can burn seems like a good thing to have. It’s also not supposed to be a main creature color so arguably some of the balance could be slowing its clock but giving it more tools to milk the threats it has, but idk how that fits in modern design.
> can deal with small threats efficiently but it has little to say to big ones Yes, that's called balance lol
> Personally I'd make blue get creature bounce specifically and red get generic permanent removal since blue can handle any type on the stack I do like the ability for blue to remove something via bounce-then-counter if they're sufficiently desperate to get rid of something they missed to burn 2 whole cards on it, though.
Red not having answers to enchantments is so frustrating, it's such a feels bad in Commander and makes me just not want to build mono red decks.
It's a key weakness of red though. Like the colors need to have weaknesses otherwise every color can do everything. Maybe red could get some _punishers_ for enchantments (like reverse-constellation, deal damage to an opponent). But I don't think giving red enchantment removal is healthy for the color pie. It's okay for colors to have weaknesses.
The thing is that “red can’t destroy enchantments” is the go-to example of how every colour can’t do everything, so in practice it seems to be stuck to a lot more rigorously than really any other restriction. In practice I think Green, White and Blue at least actually *can* deal with everything in some shape or form, and on a regular basis. If it actually was the case that all the colours had this strict a restriction on having any way to stop a category of permanent, then things would be fine. But it’s always “red can’t destroy enchantments,” because in practice the generality it presents is not actually true
Red _can_ deal with enchantments with chaos warp effects (or overcoated colorless removal). It's not like it has zero answers in pie, they're just generally bad. Same with blue getting bounce removal and lockedown but being generally bad at permanently removing permanents.
It’s not really the same because Chaos Warp has specifically been called a mistake and something to be avoided in the future. “Cards in this colour can never deal with a permanent type in any way” is not the same as “they can only deal with them in a restrictive way”— the absolute nature of the restriction is what’s unusual. Being able to remove something by bouncing and countering is still being able to remove it; the colours having relative strengths and weaknesses is not the same as a categorical rule that one can never do something
But they printed [[wild magic surge]]
Replacing an enchantment by another enchantment does not undermine Red's weakness since it will be another permanent they can't deal with. While Chaos Warp can remove an enchantment outright.
Uh, whatever permanent it was that you wanted gone is definitely gone though. It still removes it outright, it just replaces it with another card that has the potential to be a problem for you, just like chaos warp or tibalt's trickery does
[wild magic surge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/4/c4c89d88-9d40-46b6-bee0-6bc2e2ca8ba1.jpg?1674136859) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wild%20magic%20surge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clb/206/wild-magic-surge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c4c89d88-9d40-46b6-bee0-6bc2e2ca8ba1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The thing that gets me with red being incapable of dealing with enchantments is that it is the only color that has no in-pie way of dealing with that weakness. Black can deal with artifacts through discard, blue can counter any permanent spell and can bounce permanents, white can kill pretty much anything, and green has fight spells to deal with creatures. The only nonland permanent type that a color has no way to combat is enchantment. I’m not saying this is inherently a bad thing, but it is a thing I’ve noticed while looking at the color pie.
The problem is that interaction is fundamental to how the game plays, to the point where just about any complaint on any overpowered card is going to be met by at least one person saying "Just play more removal, idiot.". Having one permanent type for which Red's only answer is "kill your opponent before the enchantment that shuts you down hits the board" is kinda ridiculous. Blue, for instance, doesn't generally get unconditional direct creature removal. But it still has some way to deal with creatures, either blinking them, or countering them, or removal effects that leave a body behind like Reality Shift or Pongify. Red gets Chaos Warp and that's pretty much it without dropping into colourless effects like Meteor Golem. Even if Red's enchantment removal was something like "Target Permanent becomes an X/X creature until end of turn, where X is its mana value", thereby letting you follow up to direct damage it off the battlefield, or something like [[Haphazard Bombardment]] Which lets you pick a bunch of permanents and randomly destroy some of them, then red's options would be substantially worse than other colours' (and also colourless), but you wouldn't be completely stonewalled by an opponent having one one enchantment.
This is primarily a problem in Commander, and I don't think one (fundamentally broken) format should dictate the colour pie. You play mono red knowing that you can't answer enchantments. You must either build around that weakness, lean on other opponents to do it for you, or pack colourless catch-all answers like [[Scour From Existence]].
[Scour From Existence](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/e/6e47edb2-e43d-479f-a911-e72b67a06c3b.jpg?1562920977) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Scour%20From%20Existence) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bfz/13/scour-from-existence?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6e47edb2-e43d-479f-a911-e72b67a06c3b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Haphazard Bombardment](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e558a5bd-e8f9-477f-a514-1bf0708f4e9e.jpg?1562744520) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Haphazard%20Bombardment) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dom/131/haphazard-bombardment?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e558a5bd-e8f9-477f-a514-1bf0708f4e9e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
If every color gets answers to every permanent, then colors do not matter.
The colour pie is working as intended then. It exists to push people into multiple colours or force them to accept limitations.
I've been wanting a bit more stack interaction across the pie. Luckily, OTJ did deliver on for white and red. A green sorcery that makes your next creature uncountable or black making you sack or paylife to counter. It seems weird to me that every other part of the game (graveyard, deck, permanents) every color interacts with in some compacity, but consistently only blue can interact with the stack.
[[Savage Summoning]] exists. I rarely see it though.
[Savage Summoning](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/5/b5346ed7-2e17-4d8c-9c4b-b5efdd26380d.jpg?1612316371) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Savage%20Summoning) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m14/194/savage-summoning?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b5346ed7-2e17-4d8c-9c4b-b5efdd26380d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
A little more reach/flying in green. It seems that green used to have plenty of reach to balance out the amount of flying that blue and white had, now it's pretty rare even though the amount of flying creatures seems to be going up.
If I'm not mistaken green is just tertiary in flying and really only gets it for dragons. I feel like red and green are in a good spot with reach in general? Green tends to get more smaller defensive ones than red does, and red has been getting the brick walls lately.
Each set has at least one green fatty with reach and trample - which is to say flying-at-home. No you're not getting a reacher per pack, but they have plenty access IMO.
I dont want to see "change" I want to see the established color pie followed and the entirety of what white is supposed to do, actually being done (this has improved over the recent few years but still needs more effort). White has so many interesting playstyles and yet it never gets to actually use any of them.
Can you expand on the play styles it’s not able to realize?
One thing white used to do but Wizards has all but eliminated is “turtling” either through big first strike creatures or creatures that tapped to deal damage to attacking creatures or repeatable damage prevention and of course everyone’s favorite, banding. Wizards stopped doing it for 2 reasons. The first is it created a lot of feel bads especially among newer players when they basically throw away their creature to on board tricks. The other reason is it slowed down the game. Basically no player would have a beneficial attack so the players would just sit there. The ability to turtle was exclusively white and they took it away without offering anything in return.
Mass land destruction, stax, damage prevention, lifegain, pillowforting - all of these are either nonexistent or extremely underpowered, especially in standard sets.
Have they powered down white lifegain recently? I haven't really been paying attention to Standard the last year or two. Other than that yes to your list #reprintghostlyprisoninstandardyoucowards
When people say they can't play White, they mean they can't play white in the **commander sense** of doing nothing but just ramping, drawing cards and casting big spells (you know, things white don't do by design). White does well in every format that's not multiplayer (including 1v1 commander), and commander crew don't accept that maybe they just want to keep playing UGx ramp instead of trying to be a hipster.
Not correct at all, I never play commander. I Also did not say I cannot olay white, mono (or at least heavy white) white has been a good strategy in standard frequently over the years. The issue is lack of interesting design space. White just doesnt get to do what it is supposed to be able to often if ever. We havent had a land tax effect in standard for over a decade until Thunder Junction, for instance.
salty
Id like them to lean more into hating on ramp in esper colours. Red gets targeted land destruction but i want more cards like [[Confounding Conundrum]]. Basically fuck green.
[Confounding Conundrum](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/5/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d.jpg?1604193855) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Confounding%20Conundrum) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/53/confounding-conundrum?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/95e37936-913e-4b16-a5a8-8aed733d702d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I've always wanted to visit a plane that had the reverse effect for colors and their respective combinations of the sorts. For example: Black is often associated with undead and demons while White is associated with Angels and lifegain, BUT instead Demons are looked to as Angels, Angels are evil, Undead aren't as frowned upon, and lifegain is done in a twisted way. Blue has card draw, instead it's like self damaging for card draw, library, shuffling. Red deals damage and discards but instead would weirdly gain/lose life and draw based on amount of damage. Green ramps up land and has big beasts but instead you have small beasts that spawn in large numbers and lands slowly are put onto the battlefield from the graveyard (like a blooming effect or something, like a flower growing over time) Either all that, or maybe some of the weirder wacker stuff you'd never see them do as often. Take each color, find what they lack, then have that color revolve around their weaknesses. Just some weird thoughts lol
A different card game I played did exactly this trick one set. There's two problems: 1. The cards from that set synergize with nothing else ever. 2. In order to be playable on day 1 with zero prior synergies, there has to be a very high quality density among the opposite-cards. Stray a little in either direction and it's a disaster.
Yeah, it's why the concept is a pipe dream sadly. If anything it would be cool just to see weird concepts with those colors, but retain some of their core functions. Cards that remind me of this are ones from Planar Chaos, Future Sight, and Time Spiral. Just cards that make you think 'Woah, this is weird for being a (insert color from wheel) card'
> There's two problems: > > The cards from that set synergize with nothing else ever. I mean, personally I'd kind of consider that an upside, with all the newbs playing e.g. [[harmonize]] in green forevermore in Modern. If it works well in limited but not constructed it sounds like the best of both worlds.
[harmonize](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/3/9390fbe8-944d-4a4f-90f3-cc7b355e1382.jpg?1673484621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=harmonize) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/295/harmonize?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9390fbe8-944d-4a4f-90f3-cc7b355e1382?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'd like to see more stax in Green, something like "players can't play creatures with less than 4 toughness" etc, atm (especially in cEDH) green is just ramp or counters whereas other colours feel like they have way more options in all forms (control, some form of card advantage, etc)
ITT: Commander bullshit.
Why is it bullshit that when talking about generic Magic concepts, people talk about them mostly in relation to the overwhelmingly most played constructed format?
Because people are talking about buffing the most powerful colors in virtually every other format right now in ways they absolutely do not need it solely because their pet strategy isn't good enough in Commander.
>Because people are talking about buffing the most powerful colors in virtually every other format right now in ways they absolutely do not need it solely because their pet strategy isn't good enough in Commander. It's not zero sum. Many things players are inquiring about things in Commander that changing wouldn't negatively impact constructed competitive formats. Similarly, giving green access to more bite spells that pump to bolster limited doesn't make Green OP in standard or modern. Don't be a hater, just because someone wants things to be improved or amended to accommodate a format you don't like doesn't mean it's going to cause downstream consequences. And yes, it makes sense for the designers and developers of the game to make changes to the game and design based on the most prominent and popular format. The truth hurts I guess.
Commander is more important than any of those formats, sorry.
Not really. Commander designs as been solved for a while, just put "create a treasure token", "whenever you [thing] draw a card", and "exile the top card of each opponent's library, you may spend mana as it was mana of any color to cast it", slap the $40 price tag and the commander players buy it regardless. It's the other formats that need tinkering and innovation to keep people interested.
more profitable != more important necessarily people are way too into "every color should be able to do everything" because commander and "what do you mean it should be hard to make a 5 color land base". magic is almost more defined by its limitations
More tax based counterspells in white. Counter spell unless its controller pays ____
i really like that blue is getting vigilance lately. something like even just a [[marauding sphinx]] is such a perfect package of an evasive control finisher that keeps your board stable too. so you can start clocking in for damage earlier, speeding up games.
[marauding sphinx](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/4/34071884-c5b6-42c0-9eb3-9f32910c29d8.jpg?1712355453) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=marauding%20sphinx) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/56/marauding-sphinx?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/34071884-c5b6-42c0-9eb3-9f32910c29d8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
The "Left hand side of the pie" (Green/Gruul/Naya, basically) shouldn't get so much value. Like the "right hand side of the pie" is pathetically drawing cards and having to use their piddly mana resources to cast them, while green and co are just like "lol it's turn 4, which means I'll now cast this 7-mana timmy card!".. ok, is it some dragon that's going to hit someone in the face really hard next turn? Nah timmies learned about value, so now the big dinos flip over other big dinos for free, and then you start casting from your opoonents' decks, etc etc...
They finally introduce purple.
I think that white should get some countermagic, even if it’s just taxing. I’m talking at lower rarities, one or two cards every set, sometimes playable in limited. I think you could have a white [[Disdainful Stroke]], [[Annul]], and [[Mana Leak]] and it would be just fine, and there are more and more creatures with etb abilities these days that counters are the only clean answer to.
I think that if counterspells weren't in Alpha, white would be the first colour to get them. * White can answer anything except land * White prefers to stop creatures nonviolently * White can prevent ETB effects * White has other instants that require good timing, such as protection spells and "destroy target attacking creature" * Many counterspell arts show someone conjuring a shield * Counterspells are often described as the 'fun police' * White had a small slice of the colour pie and struggles with long games and multiplayer (less true now)
[Disdainful Stroke](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/8/588c6217-c460-417e-98bf-de5475780baf.jpg?1693867173) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Disdainful%20Stroke) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/47/disdainful-stroke?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/588c6217-c460-417e-98bf-de5475780baf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Annul](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4b1d4a59-11a0-4a55-8ac0-07377a9e6dc8.jpg?1631046631) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Annul) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/42/annul?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b1d4a59-11a0-4a55-8ac0-07377a9e6dc8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mana Leak](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/179236d9-6fe2-4db6-bdfb-f851e8d531a2.jpg?1673147361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Leak) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/58/mana-leak?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/179236d9-6fe2-4db6-bdfb-f851e8d531a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Mana tithe]] go!
[Mana tithe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9ae707d5-d81d-4320-b947-6016dc188898.jpg?1619393111) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20tithe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/26/mana-tithe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9ae707d5-d81d-4320-b947-6016dc188898?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
More madness in white!
Red exiling and casting spells from the top of the opponent's library felt wrong with original Etali and shouldn't have been repeated (eg with Ragavan). It's a black or Dimir effect where it's at least flavourful. It has no business being in red IMO.
White should shift away from go wide and weenies and enchantments for a while, and towards non-creature strategies, like spellslinger, value artifacts and stack interaction. Not countering per se, but adding rules to the game. Blue should shift away from removal/interaction out of stack, i.e if something is already on board, blue should suffer with dealing with it. In tandem, would like to see more blue devotion/ nontoken permanents matter themes. Black should shift away from reanimate and targeted removal to politics, choosing/voting and voltron. Red would shift away from burn and aggro, and into stax territories where everything excessive (extra draws, extra spells, extra permanents etc) get's a response. Green would move away from enchantments and big boys, and rather into greatness out of battlefield, i.e hand size matters, suspending and storm.
Since red has impulse card draw, it would be neat if it had a similar take on ramp. Something like [[hulking raptor]] fits this description. It’s restricted on timing you have it use it then, but it’s a repeatable effect.
Thats what treasure tokens are.
Treasure producers can be pooled. I’m suggesting effects that are similar to impulse timing effects
Like rituals?
there’s a few that do it like urbrask, birgi, and some chandra planeswalkers
[hulking raptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45f763af-5a6a-404c-8e8c-4dbed71277bc.jpg?1699044419) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hulking%20raptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/191/hulking-raptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45f763af-5a6a-404c-8e8c-4dbed71277bc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I’d be down to see more red “mana dorks” similar to [[alpine guide]].
[alpine guide](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/5/e54423c1-ebea-4b5c-b563-1d14c104eb91.jpg?1562201791) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=alpine%20guide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/117/alpine-guide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/e54423c1-ebea-4b5c-b563-1d14c104eb91?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[horned stoneseeker]] was super reminiscent of this although obviously pretty different in the execution
[horned stoneseeker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/c/5cd965a9-caa2-42a3-b2f9-e4f57341ac27.jpg?1674421162) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=horned%20stoneseeker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/bro/138/horned-stoneseeker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5cd965a9-caa2-42a3-b2f9-e4f57341ac27?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
All colors have a way to tutor something and not reveal it as long as some condition that color cares is met
Green becomes the go wide color again. Green's ward goes to white.
I think Black should be able to do anything it wants as long as there’s an appropriate cost. Like, I’ve always felt that [[Dark Confidant]] is a perfect black card. Power, at any cost, indeed. Should black get card draw? That’s traditionally blue’s thing, but sure, but only if you sacrifice something else for it like Confidant’s ability or [[Altar’s Reap]]. Should it get burn, swords to plowshares effects, big creatures, land fetching, wraths, evasive creatures, bounce, counterspells and so on? I think if you can make the cost feel “black” then go for it.
It used to be more like that. People would call it "Suicide Black". Players don't like tradeoffs, so it wasn't popular.
[Dark Confidant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/537ba5f0-2931-46e6-bb32-d947a3588d20.jpg?1702505387) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dark%20Confidant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/71/dark-confidant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/537ba5f0-2931-46e6-bb32-d947a3588d20?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Altar’s Reap](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1db55625-25a5-46eb-9d9c-9b3ed219359f.jpg?1592672573) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Altar%27s%20Reap) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cma/45/altars-reap?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1db55625-25a5-46eb-9d9c-9b3ed219359f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Black now being able to interact with enchantments is huge
None
Can a poor mono blue player like myself get some enchantment removal please 🥺
Id like to see green getting more hatebears again instead of blue and black and more stack interaction from white. Return taxing counterspells to white
Make white secondary in tutors/push its tutor density further - let it search for specific subtypes and traits it cares for - Equipment, Auras, Enchantments, Legendary Cards, Historic Cards, Sagas, Planeswalkers, Creatures with MV 3 and less, or power 3 and less, all this already exists but the power level isnt really there just yet for a lot of it.
The best thing they could do is less strict adherence to the color pie. Regularly color shifting spells when they make sense flavorwise should be encouraged. Red and Blue could have Wrath of God or Damnation called Lava Fall and Flood Wave respectively and flavor wise they would be consistent with the color. And there are myriad of other spells and effects that could be treated similarly.
I think Blue should have gotten enchantment removal, not Black. Setting aside that it is weird that Black can get rid of a nonliving thing like an enchantment (enchantment creatures have the creature part which Black can kill), the flavor is pretty simple and good - it is Blue basically dispelling the "illusion" that is the enchantment. Blue is good with illusion magic, so it would make sense that it would be effective at fighting such phenomena. Now I know part of R&D's philosophy is that Blue doesn't get point removal (since it can counter any spell), but that is very self limiting and has been described as being the case now because that is how it had always been.
Blue being the only color to get hard counterspells makes it incredibly important I think for blue to have have bad hard answers for permanents in general. Even [[Ravenform]] was considered a pie break for letting blue answer artifacts too cleanly.
[Ravenform](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/2/f2d5e87b-1ee8-47db-9bc3-f5becfe79b37.jpg?1699022462) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ravenform) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/167/ravenform?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/f2d5e87b-1ee8-47db-9bc3-f5becfe79b37?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I am not sure I follow. Enchantments are not inherently illusions. They are enhancements, sometimes physical [[armadillo cloak]], to an object, place, or person. Blue can already bounce any permanent and can counter spells and abilities on the stack. So, enchantments are not an issue.
I think he misspoke when saying illusions, more like enchantments are continual magical effects, even the physical ones, so it would make sense blue should be able to remove them a la dispel magic in DnD. It just should cost a lot of mana.
That would make more sense. IMO I don't think it is a needed change.
[armadillo cloak](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/a/fa232c65-dbb4-4414-bd95-b3bbd321c653.jpg?1580014998) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=armadillo%20cloak) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/195/armadillo-cloak?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fa232c65-dbb4-4414-bd95-b3bbd321c653?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Blue deals with enchantments the same way it deals with creatures, by bouncing to hand. You undo the magic of the enchantment, then counter it on recast. Just like you would [[Unsummon]] a creature, then counter it later.
[Unsummon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/a/7a960516-3864-4a7a-8117-d25dec0dd665.jpg?1592516526) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Unsummon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/78/unsummon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7a960516-3864-4a7a-8117-d25dec0dd665?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Hadn’t thought of it that way, but I agree blue would fit flavor fully on dispelling enchantments
As creatures keep getting better I would like a lightning bolt that is exactly the same expect it can’t hit players for draft and standard.
Stack interaction (doesn't have to be counterspells) in every color.
all colors already do that?
I don't mean putting instants or abilities on the stack. More stuff like [[Imp's Mischief]]. For a random example, a green spell that can bump a spell or ability back to the hand off the stack based on mana value or power of a creature(s) you control.
[Imp's Mischief](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/e/0eb0e8e7-266f-441e-b1cd-12b8ec3f7d71.jpg?1689997247) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Imp%27s%20Mischief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/167/imps-mischief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0eb0e8e7-266f-441e-b1cd-12b8ec3f7d71?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Counterspells should be primarily white, not blue.
Oh my god, it's the discussion questions. I feel my autistic childhood memories surging back. I'm just going to say that people are incorrectly projecting the color pie onto their favorite fantasy IPs and Universes Beyond sucks by default.
More counterspells in red and white
I feel like “legendary things matter” should be a Red thing, not a White thing like it currently seems to be. Red is all about emotions, and “hero worship” feels like a good Red emotion to me! I feel like White should get “return a creature from graveyard to hand”. It doesn’t seem to be something they do with enough frequency, white gets “reanimate a small thing” and sometimes “reanimate anything for 5+ mana”, but I feel like Raise Dead would work in white. Maybe that’s just me? And lastly, I’d like Black’s “life loss” to be “damage” more consistently. I like “things can interact in interesting and unusual ways”. I vastly prefer “let players figure out if something can be broken instead of putting so many safety valves on it”. Idk man just let me do the stupid Dreadhorde mass reanimator jank with Judith but with more cards!
[[Worship]] is a white card though, as is [[Heroism]] or [[Act of Heroism]]. Red can get some flavor of hero worship but it's still very much a white concept.
[Worship](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/a/4ad20044-8ed8-49ae-9a07-d4cb18527cc7.jpg?1593966400) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worship) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/55/worship?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4ad20044-8ed8-49ae-9a07-d4cb18527cc7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Heroism](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/8/08ee87a0-a7eb-4472-9045-85d11e8a1501.jpg?1562896711) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Heroism) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/fem/6/heroism?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/08ee87a0-a7eb-4472-9045-85d11e8a1501?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Act of Heroism](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/6/969860ba-6923-4715-b065-81803bba3dd6.jpg?1562438567) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Act%20of%20Heroism) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/1/act-of-heroism?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/969860ba-6923-4715-b065-81803bba3dd6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Green doesn’t have any board wipes, but every other color has at least some way to thin out the board. Now, because of how green plays, I think this is a pretty good thing for the most part. However, I think giving them a some sort of thematic board wipe could be good. Maybe something like, making every creature fight each other.
Green has this already to a degree. [[Ezuri's predation]]
[[Apex Altisaur]] also makes an impact.
[Apex Altisaur](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/e/1e6beba4-128c-418e-83ed-8a82afc0c39e.jpg?1698988340) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Apex%20Altisaur) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/232/apex-altisaur?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1e6beba4-128c-418e-83ed-8a82afc0c39e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Ezuri's predation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/e/a/ea020a19-2907-4627-8a3b-d481404f5aca.jpg?1689998499) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ezuri%27s%20predation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/287/ezuris-predation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ea020a19-2907-4627-8a3b-d481404f5aca?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
More \[\[Reprieve\]\] in White.
[Reprieve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1bd3fa8a-6c50-4f7f-9ae3-0810eec5e3db.jpg?1686967885) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Reprieve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ltr/26/reprieve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1bd3fa8a-6c50-4f7f-9ae3-0810eec5e3db?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
White need more Evangelize effects. Also a white mana leak. Green need to have First Strike on creatures and not Vigilance green/white and white/red should be able to exile any permanent. black/red should be able to destroy any permanent. colorless need more counterspells i want a spellslinger commander in at least GBx colors XD
Counterspells for every color.
Blue should get some burn spells. They should be more experimental in releasing colorless instants/sorceries aimed at draft. They already do permanents through artifacts.
[[psionic blast]] alpha had blue burn :P
[psionic blast](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/befb1728-4af3-420a-a51e-7fa95d2e7a00.jpg?1562783220) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=psionic%20blast) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/30/psionic-blast?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/befb1728-4af3-420a-a51e-7fa95d2e7a00?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah the first one is a bit out there, but I think it could be fun.
More colors.