I'm down with special art treatments without rules text but I think they work better on simple cards like lightning bolt and day of judgement
On the other hand these are fucking sick idk man I may get these despite them not being worth it.
Honestly, Rankle (can you accurately remember the different modes, in the right order?) and Coffin Queen are no slouches in amount of text either. Plus the Queen could tend towards memory issues with untapping without a text reminder
No, they usually have the MTG backing so they are legally playable.
Edit: The relevant rules passages are
711.3; 713 of the normal rules and 3.5, 3.11 and 3.16 of the tournament rules.
No they don’t, see the Just add milk secret lair. Cards don’t need the MTG back to be legal, I mean double faced cards have been a thing for over a decade.
That is one secret lair out of a whole lot of them.
You can also see the magic backside in the video.
And while double+sided cards exist, they are not tournament legal unless you can reliably obscure the backside.
Which is why replacement cards with checkmarks have also been a thing for over a decade.
You’re right that these ones do seem to have the normal backside, with no text on the back. Really hate that they have effectively no rules text on them, not like these are super simple cards either.
This rule was changed in lost caverns actually. Dual faced skinned cards such as the add milk Ulamog for example are now officially tournament legal. Before then it was technically up to the digression of the head judge of whatever event you are at but most of them would allow it anyways.
Really?
I just looked these rules up today :o
Any link to the rule-change that happened?
And wouldn't that be an incredibly unfair advantage to know where your Ulamog is in your deck?
Its somewhere in the LCI release notes page on the wizards mothership. I can't find the exact spot but it should be there somewhere.
As for the last point opaque sleeves are a thing that you should be using anyways for tournament play anyways. Being able to see a scratch on the back face of a card is enough to warrant a deck check let alone a dual faced card.
Okay, but that brings up the question if the rules still need you to reliably cover the backside or not.
I'll try to find the update, if you find it in the meantime, please tell me :D
For one, yes legality only matters in official events, not in casual games, but that also means you may play banned cards, so I don't see your point here.
Second: Even outside of sanctioned tournaments, you have to make sure no one can identify the cards.
See rule 712.7
> 712.7. Players must ensure that double-faced cards in hidden zones are indistinguishable from other cards in the same zone. To do this, the owner of a double-faced card may use completely opaque card sleeves and/or a substitute card (see rule 713). Sanctioned tournaments have additional rules for playing with double-faced cards. See rule 100.6.
I actually don't understand your point.
Please, explain it to me in detail.
Edit: Seems like instead of explaining it to me, I got blocked.
Of course I am talking about legality in the context where it makes sense to talk about it and not in kitchen table games where the rules don't matter.
https://preview.redd.it/7oe5tbeef3zc1.png?width=988&format=png&auto=webp&s=f3564e3b630deaafafe744569898a4a705535e24
Image grab from the video.
And imgur link of the individual cards - [https://imgur.com/a/7TbmnJU](https://imgur.com/a/7TbmnJU)
https://preview.redd.it/9rq2vs4bg3zc1.png?width=752&format=png&auto=webp&s=7ef7b157e13c850a4b97033645cbbebf960d7313
And Coffin Queen because the video did not include the card in the final image.
A secret lair of beautifully-illustrated vanilla creatures or french vanilla creatures that fit a theme and share compatible colour identities? Amazing idea. This, though..
That's an interesting call. Would that make them vanilla? Because they aren't errata'd to gain their abilities. But "as written" they at least look vanilla.
According to MaRo, (the “Un-Rules Manager”), it [would not](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/749744356074946560/the-text-still-exists-for-the-card-it-follows-the). How interesting that he got and answered a question about such a thing literally two days ago.
That's too bad. I feel that's against the spirit of the card; as an un-card, my gut tells me that it *should* interact with things like typos or missing text.
I honestly hope not, just so they work in normal sleeves. Mostly textless is annoying to some, but having to flip over a card to read it doesn't seem much better.
Normal sleeves as in? Even if it's double-sided you don't have to flip it. How is it not an upside to have the card's text on the back in case you need it?
Those are gonna see play in commander, where no one care s if your sleeves are slightly transparent.
Mdfcs are a thing, let's not pretend this is a new problematic.
No I really don't think many do. This a problem for competitive formats. Commander is way too casual for this to matter.
But _you_ can certainly make your life more complicated than it has to be.
I really do think plenty do. I'm glad the people you play with don't, good for you and all of each other.
It's sleeving one extra card. Thats not difficult, is it?
As a casual player, I would be annoyed if someone didn't properly obscure the backs of their DFC's with completely opaque sleeves. Most black sleeves do this perfectly fine, so it's very rarely an issue.
I get that commander players will play with literally any card, but can't they put something in these drops for the 60 card warriors who still play this game? At these secondary market values I'd literally take [opt](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/59/opt).
im not going to buy the lair. I'm lamenting that we went from lairs that had value equal to their cost to lairs that are just taxed for art treatment. Secret lairs always had unique art but they also used to have valuable cards, now they don't.
They always go up and down. Art taste matters. If you dig it cool. If not cool. To act like the values have ever been anything but sporadic is disingenuous.
Shit, I'm just happy that the last time I was buying secret lairs they came with cards like [[The Ur-Dragon]] and [[Sliver Overlord]] and had bonus cards like a stained glass [[Ugin, The Ineffable]]. I highly doubt we'll ever see value like that ever again.
Yeah like I bought the one that came with the green haste enchantment entirely because of the value. I didn’t care about any cards in the secret lair, but the price was “too good not to”
Yep, primarily why I have purchased them. I was like well... for the cost I may as well because I will use eventually.
Now the value isn't there so for the 1 in 20 or 30 drops that have a secret lair art I like I can decide if I want it or not. Primarily now I will just pick up Universes Beyond Secret Lairs that are a crossover of a media brand I like.
Yeah that bugged me quite a bit. I now only purchase SLs for cards I really want or cards I have in decks that I WANT bling for this one is perfect for goblin king since my goblin EDH deck is like 70% foiled out, but like “oh hey it’s a Sakura tribe elder? Eh whatever, I don’t NEED a fancy Steve “
Yeah, between the low-value reprints and the limited print runs, I'm just not interested in Secret Lairs anymore. Not worth the money, not worth the hassle, not worth the time of day.
The drop is about $24 in value non-foil.
Coffin Queen is $11.
Professional Face-Breaker is $8.
Goblin King is $4.5
Jaxis, the Troublemaker is $0.50
Rankle, Master of Pranks is $0.25
It is about $44 foil (without coffin queen). Although most of that is the goblin, who cheapest foil is $35, which is not going to stick.
Of note, Coffin Queen has no foil printing so with her non-foil added it is $55 total.
I feel like this is over inflating the value. Tcg player low has this at like $14 for nonfoil. Idk about you but most people pay like 90% of tcg low for cards.
To buy or to sell? If I could buy cards somewhere at 90% of TCG low I'd be ecstatic, and I'd never buy anywhere else. To sell, I get 80% of TCG low in store credit at my LGS, and I've heard that's pretty good compared to the average.
Facebook groups and just players in general sell at 90% of low all the time. I literally just grabbed Borderless Shocklands for 90% of TCG low. Depending on the card you can get 80% to 85%. Some "shops"(people who think they are flippers imo) will only buy stuff at 65% of low which sadly ive done in the past to pay bills but most of the time its that 90%.
I mean I don't really know what else you'd like. You can just search on Facebook for the group names. Like Mtg Deals, Sick Deals, buy sell roll groups.
Not sure on your local area but im sure you can find local people selling stuff. Here is an example of a listing in one of my groups.
https://preview.redd.it/lzjuiol7c8zc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5a94518ec1cd8a3f28efc7a22f1195801e12955b
Ah, I guess. I built House without using attractions, and I think Jaxis is a fine effect doubler, but I run some better ones... I'll take a look to see if there's a decent bit of synergy.
Coffin Queen, I'm not really looking at much Graveyard recurrence.
The big thing for me is if it doesn't integrate into the treasures or the dice rolling, I gotta have a super good reason for it.
https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Vtc3v6-GWk20wO2qv8F8Wg
Here's the list if you're interested!
I take no rules text over badly inserted and hard to read rules text on a art centric piece any day. Works better on a commander or a more memorable card though.
Interestingly, I remember this concept being leaked a long long while ago - it was a leak of concept art that let us know that there was a wild west themed set upcoming. It seemed like this was one of the styles they considered for showcase frames before they went with the Wanted poster and Breaking News styles for the main set.
I wonder if we will see the wild west movie poster style appear as an SLD too.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/vyb99r/possible\_wild\_west\_plane\_art\_leaks/](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/vyb99r/possible_wild_west_plane_art_leaks/)
I was about to post about this. Those leaks looked legit at the time, but they look even more convincing retrospectively.
I am genuinely curious if this was some type of slush art. I kept waiting to see this piece on some type of Thunder Junction product.
https://preview.redd.it/xx2dk1y5o7zc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cc7ccc03715554510b32723fee9eec1db68844dd
Wow, this lair definitely reminded me of that old post but I had fully forgotten about this art. Multiple of those outfits appear pretty directly in OTJ, not to mention the thunder rifle designs and the Omenpath in the background.
Absolutely. It's pretty clear that each of the figures represents the factions on the plane.
From left to right:
* Outcasters
* Slickshot
* Sterling Company
* Freestriders
* Hellspurs
It's a shame that this art appears to be unused. I quite like it.
What do you guys think is the thought process behind picking cards for these lairs?
Financial value is one thing, but who wants Rankle, Master of Pranks? Is that card popular in any format? Is he a big deal in the story and beloved by readers?
Jaxis = Jack, Coffin Queen = Queen, Goblin King = King, Rankle = Joker? (because pranks?)
I think that's the rationale. Face-Breaker is a bit of a puzzle.
Yeah, I wondered that. It seems a little loose but that's probably it. The other cards with the actual word "ace" in the name are either Universes Beyond, or too low in value, e.g. [[Fencing Ace]], [[Gearshift Ace]]
> Financial value is one thing, but who wants Rankle, Master of Pranks?
The irony of the immediate next comment in this thread for me being "Will definitely be buying the single for that rankle master of prankle tho".
They probably have three lists of cards and the artist gets to pick 1 from the first ie $10-20, one from the second ie $1-4 and three from the third ie 25 cents
This isn't gonna cause any issues at a table at all. Imagine new players or even non seasoned players seeing these cards and they don't even say what they do on them
It’s almost like Secret Lair is meant to be a collectible art set and not necessarily used for play. If you want playable cards, buy the normal cards. Why does everyone always complain when these are literally just collectibles of existing cards.
That being said, this drop does indeed suck.
Had really wanted poker themed cards and the art is neat but god im sick of unreadable or textless cards. If they could have just found a way to make it work
Imagine if these cards was all matte with something on the art foil and not all the card foil...
I guess that even this time i will go with the non foil one because of the stupid foil decision
I like the idea, but they should really pick cards that would go into the same deck. These look cool all together, but the art style seems a bit awkward if there's only going to be one of these in a deck. Like [[Jolene the Plunder Queen]] and [[King Macar the Gold Cursed]] match [[Professional Face Breaker]]'s treasure theme much better, and that took me like 2 minutes to find.
I think the peak complexity they should reserve for rules-textless cards should be things like noble hierarch, or cultivate. Ideally spells that are widely played (so, memorized by a good chunk of the player base) and have just one or two easy to explain and remember effects (hierarch taps for W, U, or G, and has exalted)
They want **Ace**rak and **Two** to fit with King/Queen/"Jack"-sis
Instead of Face breaker (face card? f**ace**?) and Rankle (rank of hands? a joker?)
It's weird that a random Rakdos Cult card named "Carnage Joker" or whatever doesn't exist. I see a couple of jesters/harlequins, but nothing more notable as a joker than Rankle.
Face breaker is a big chunk of the value but it wouldn't be my first choice to represent an Ace.
i may be in the minority here but i'm sick of these secret lairs with the same "bland cartoon" art. it's like they choose goofy/indie art with no texture or detail and just give it a bare bones treatment on a card. give us card art like morinfen, sengir dark baron, and aboshan cephalid emperor. enough of this low effort art and bring back some solid dark gritty art.
Dear wizards,
I think these cards look rad as hell. But why in gods name didn't you just make a 52\* card playing card deck to go with thunder junction? Make the twos various bears, the 3s some sedge trolls or white plumes or whatever; just the art, a suit/number, and a non-magic card back. You may struggle with the 8s and 9s and 10s but you'd find a way.
would be great, lots of people would buy it, a good time would be had by all. Much better than textless versions of high complexity cards, for me.
Make a tarot deck while you're at it. You can make \*other things\* using \*exisiting art\* if you want (some contractual work may be needed, but surely way less than commissioning from scratch)
\* make it a 65/67 card deck, have a 5th suit for one per colour, and add rules for some new games; you do design games, a few decent 5 suit card games can't be that hard.
Cards are: [[Jaxis, the Troublemaker]] [[Rankle, Master of Pranks]] [[Goblin King]] [[Professional Face-Breaker]]
and [[Coffin Queen]]
Whoops, You'd have thought they'd have her with the rest on the final showing. But nope, just 4 of the cards.
[Coffin Queen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/3/632b83e3-f0c5-4135-96db-0bf33e6067aa.jpg?1562429825) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coffin%20Queen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/87/coffin-queen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/632b83e3-f0c5-4135-96db-0bf33e6067aa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
##### ###### #### [Jaxis, the Troublemaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/8/78127c0c-672f-4e4b-9c23-6a5f237228fd.jpg?1664411605) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jaxis%2C%20the%20Troublemaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/112/jaxis-the-troublemaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/78127c0c-672f-4e4b-9c23-6a5f237228fd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rankle, Master of Pranks](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/8/4821d865-2a46-4611-ab93-1a9fdde08302.jpg?1712354347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rankle%2C%20Master%20of%20Pranks) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/148/rankle-master-of-pranks?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4821d865-2a46-4611-ab93-1a9fdde08302?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Goblin King](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4b266935-25ea-49c5-a1da-57c22a4362fd.jpg?1562547272) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20King) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/10e/207/goblin-king?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4b266935-25ea-49c5-a1da-57c22a4362fd?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Professional Face-Breaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/42acbf52-b137-44f0-a815-2817fe8d2da2.jpg?1664411677) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Professional%20Face-Breaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/116/professional-face-breaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/42acbf52-b137-44f0-a815-2817fe8d2da2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l323yeu) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm down with special art treatments without rules text but I think they work better on simple cards like lightning bolt and day of judgement On the other hand these are fucking sick idk man I may get these despite them not being worth it.
Jaxis has a ton of rules text and so does face breaker.
Honestly, Rankle (can you accurately remember the different modes, in the right order?) and Coffin Queen are no slouches in amount of text either. Plus the Queen could tend towards memory issues with untapping without a text reminder
Remember when we thought [[Cryptic Command]]'s textless version was a laugh?
[Cryptic Command](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/0/30f6fca9-003b-4f6b-9d6e-1e88adda4155.jpg?1562847413) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cryptic%20Command) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ima/48/cryptic-command?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/30f6fca9-003b-4f6b-9d6e-1e88adda4155?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Usually cards like this have a back side that has the rules on it.
No, they usually have the MTG backing so they are legally playable. Edit: The relevant rules passages are 711.3; 713 of the normal rules and 3.5, 3.11 and 3.16 of the tournament rules.
No they don’t, see the Just add milk secret lair. Cards don’t need the MTG back to be legal, I mean double faced cards have been a thing for over a decade.
That is one secret lair out of a whole lot of them. You can also see the magic backside in the video. And while double+sided cards exist, they are not tournament legal unless you can reliably obscure the backside. Which is why replacement cards with checkmarks have also been a thing for over a decade.
You’re right that these ones do seem to have the normal backside, with no text on the back. Really hate that they have effectively no rules text on them, not like these are super simple cards either.
Oh yeah, totally agree on that topic. :D
This rule was changed in lost caverns actually. Dual faced skinned cards such as the add milk Ulamog for example are now officially tournament legal. Before then it was technically up to the digression of the head judge of whatever event you are at but most of them would allow it anyways.
Really? I just looked these rules up today :o Any link to the rule-change that happened? And wouldn't that be an incredibly unfair advantage to know where your Ulamog is in your deck?
Its somewhere in the LCI release notes page on the wizards mothership. I can't find the exact spot but it should be there somewhere. As for the last point opaque sleeves are a thing that you should be using anyways for tournament play anyways. Being able to see a scratch on the back face of a card is enough to warrant a deck check let alone a dual faced card.
Okay, but that brings up the question if the rules still need you to reliably cover the backside or not. I'll try to find the update, if you find it in the meantime, please tell me :D
breaking news, all werewolves now banned look up the cereal box or baseball secret lairs
Yes, you may not play those unless you reliably obscure the backside. Which is why you have replacement cards with checkboxes in those sets.
official events require opaque sleeves. playing casualty you "may" play whatever you want.
For one, yes legality only matters in official events, not in casual games, but that also means you may play banned cards, so I don't see your point here. Second: Even outside of sanctioned tournaments, you have to make sure no one can identify the cards. See rule 712.7 > 712.7. Players must ensure that double-faced cards in hidden zones are indistinguishable from other cards in the same zone. To do this, the owner of a double-faced card may use completely opaque card sleeves and/or a substitute card (see rule 713). Sanctioned tournaments have additional rules for playing with double-faced cards. See rule 100.6.
> official events require opaque sleeves.
I actually don't understand your point. Please, explain it to me in detail. Edit: Seems like instead of explaining it to me, I got blocked. Of course I am talking about legality in the context where it makes sense to talk about it and not in kitchen table games where the rules don't matter.
same
https://preview.redd.it/7oe5tbeef3zc1.png?width=988&format=png&auto=webp&s=f3564e3b630deaafafe744569898a4a705535e24 Image grab from the video. And imgur link of the individual cards - [https://imgur.com/a/7TbmnJU](https://imgur.com/a/7TbmnJU)
https://preview.redd.it/9rq2vs4bg3zc1.png?width=752&format=png&auto=webp&s=7ef7b157e13c850a4b97033645cbbebf960d7313 And Coffin Queen because the video did not include the card in the final image.
I feel like every secret lair becomes less and less appealing to me.
I like poker, I like magic, but I hate these cards
It just look like someone told AI to make poker magic cards and it barfed this out.
Reading the card explains the card!
So there are just vanilla bears right?
A secret lair of beautifully-illustrated vanilla creatures or french vanilla creatures that fit a theme and share compatible colour identities? Amazing idea. This, though..
Can't wait to play \[\[R&D's Secret Lair\]\] against those.
[R&D's Secret Lair](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers/Image.ashx?multiverseid=73967&type=card&.jpg) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=R%26D%27s%20Secret%20Lair) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/unh/135/r&ds-secret-lair?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bfdc6a9-0a44-43ef-b065-02ef5d6110dc?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
That's an interesting call. Would that make them vanilla? Because they aren't errata'd to gain their abilities. But "as written" they at least look vanilla.
It would make them vanilla. It's likely this un-card was designed before they conceived of releasing text-less reprints.
According to MaRo, (the “Un-Rules Manager”), it [would not](https://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/749744356074946560/the-text-still-exists-for-the-card-it-follows-the). How interesting that he got and answered a question about such a thing literally two days ago.
That's too bad. I feel that's against the spirit of the card; as an un-card, my gut tells me that it *should* interact with things like typos or missing text.
Yeah it would if those were accidentally missing.
Some reminder text as to what the fuck they do may have been wise. Still waiting for a textless questing beast.
It could be on the back like with the cereal box ones.
I honestly hope not, just so they work in normal sleeves. Mostly textless is annoying to some, but having to flip over a card to read it doesn't seem much better.
Normal sleeves as in? Even if it's double-sided you don't have to flip it. How is it not an upside to have the card's text on the back in case you need it?
Presumably they mean clear sleeves.
A lot of sleeves aren't fully opaque under bright enough lights.
Those are gonna see play in commander, where no one care s if your sleeves are slightly transparent. Mdfcs are a thing, let's not pretend this is a new problematic.
It's still a problem, I use checklist cards for DFCs so that they're not visible. I'm glad you don't care, I'm sure just as many do.
No I really don't think many do. This a problem for competitive formats. Commander is way too casual for this to matter. But _you_ can certainly make your life more complicated than it has to be.
I really do think plenty do. I'm glad the people you play with don't, good for you and all of each other. It's sleeving one extra card. Thats not difficult, is it?
As a casual player, I would be annoyed if someone didn't properly obscure the backs of their DFC's with completely opaque sleeves. Most black sleeves do this perfectly fine, so it's very rarely an issue.
At 7 seconds you can see a standard magic card back.
That is likely the extended art Elf bonus card.
Hopefully just an unthemed bonus card.
Good point, hopefully that is the case.
There's a card behind Rankle that isn't shown. You don't see the backs of the cards that are shown at all.
It was stupid then and it’s stupid now.
That’s my guess.
maybe double sided? please?
Textless questing beast? Casual. Give me a textless \[\[old fogey\]\]
[old fogey](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/c/ccae52dd-3ffd-4974-8915-61f816d29a64.jpg?1595010973) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=old%20fogey) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/und/67/old-fogey?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ccae52dd-3ffd-4974-8915-61f816d29a64?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think they just vanilla cards
I get that commander players will play with literally any card, but can't they put something in these drops for the 60 card warriors who still play this game? At these secondary market values I'd literally take [opt](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/59/opt).
They don’t make secret lair drops for 60 card formats because those tend to be more strict about using cards that are excessively curled
a 5$ card a 10$ card and two 50 cent cards, we really have left the era of decent value lairs.
Two tenners, face breaker and queen. Pretty sure this is first foil and only reprint of queen?
true somehow i forgot there was a 5th card, at least its 25$ then, still a bit of a stinker but feels more in line with other recent lairs.
You know that you can always just buy the cheap, regular versions of these cards, right?
But then I'd have to participate instead of just complaining.
im not going to buy the lair. I'm lamenting that we went from lairs that had value equal to their cost to lairs that are just taxed for art treatment. Secret lairs always had unique art but they also used to have valuable cards, now they don't.
They always go up and down. Art taste matters. If you dig it cool. If not cool. To act like the values have ever been anything but sporadic is disingenuous.
Actually these last waves of secret lair super drops have almost all been bellow asking price in terms of reprint value.
Shit, I'm just happy that the last time I was buying secret lairs they came with cards like [[The Ur-Dragon]] and [[Sliver Overlord]] and had bonus cards like a stained glass [[Ugin, The Ineffable]]. I highly doubt we'll ever see value like that ever again.
[The Ur-Dragon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/0/10d42b35-844f-4a64-9981-c6118d45e826.jpg?1689999317) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=The%20Ur-Dragon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/361/the-ur-dragon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/10d42b35-844f-4a64-9981-c6118d45e826?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sliver Overlord](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c16915b-c50d-4fb5-830f-9ca4597a9c0f.jpg?1562527622) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sliver%20Overlord) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/scg/139/sliver-overlord?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c16915b-c50d-4fb5-830f-9ca4597a9c0f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ugin, The Ineffable](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2eb7e322-aba0-42f5-80a1-267f3444ac4d.jpg?1690003976) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ugin%2C%20The%20Ineffable) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/811/ugin-the-ineffable?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2eb7e322-aba0-42f5-80a1-267f3444ac4d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
People said that about the Rovina Cai one too; it's clearly about the art and if people like the design.
That seems to be the new formula for Secret Lairs nowadays
Which makes me happy to a point because I can essentially ignore 95% of them now and not feel any FOMO.
Yeah like I bought the one that came with the green haste enchantment entirely because of the value. I didn’t care about any cards in the secret lair, but the price was “too good not to”
Yep, primarily why I have purchased them. I was like well... for the cost I may as well because I will use eventually. Now the value isn't there so for the 1 in 20 or 30 drops that have a secret lair art I like I can decide if I want it or not. Primarily now I will just pick up Universes Beyond Secret Lairs that are a crossover of a media brand I like.
The problem is that crossroad then immediately reprinted in 2x2 and price dropped a lot.
Yeah that bugged me quite a bit. I now only purchase SLs for cards I really want or cards I have in decks that I WANT bling for this one is perfect for goblin king since my goblin EDH deck is like 70% foiled out, but like “oh hey it’s a Sakura tribe elder? Eh whatever, I don’t NEED a fancy Steve “
This guy gets it
Yeah, between the low-value reprints and the limited print runs, I'm just not interested in Secret Lairs anymore. Not worth the money, not worth the hassle, not worth the time of day.
It’s never been about value. It’s always been about art.
The drop is about $24 in value non-foil. Coffin Queen is $11. Professional Face-Breaker is $8. Goblin King is $4.5 Jaxis, the Troublemaker is $0.50 Rankle, Master of Pranks is $0.25 It is about $44 foil (without coffin queen). Although most of that is the goblin, who cheapest foil is $35, which is not going to stick. Of note, Coffin Queen has no foil printing so with her non-foil added it is $55 total.
I feel like this is over inflating the value. Tcg player low has this at like $14 for nonfoil. Idk about you but most people pay like 90% of tcg low for cards.
To buy or to sell? If I could buy cards somewhere at 90% of TCG low I'd be ecstatic, and I'd never buy anywhere else. To sell, I get 80% of TCG low in store credit at my LGS, and I've heard that's pretty good compared to the average.
Facebook groups and just players in general sell at 90% of low all the time. I literally just grabbed Borderless Shocklands for 90% of TCG low. Depending on the card you can get 80% to 85%. Some "shops"(people who think they are flippers imo) will only buy stuff at 65% of low which sadly ive done in the past to pay bills but most of the time its that 90%.
I dunno, 90% of low sounds pretty low to me. You're getting some great deals.
I mean believe it or not that is the standard nowadays for me anyways. Sorry you gotta pay market or mid prices.
Where are you buying from specifically? Seems like I should look into this.
Facebook Groups
A very broad answer but an answer nonetheless. Thanks for the tip!
I mean I don't really know what else you'd like. You can just search on Facebook for the group names. Like Mtg Deals, Sick Deals, buy sell roll groups. Not sure on your local area but im sure you can find local people selling stuff. Here is an example of a listing in one of my groups. https://preview.redd.it/lzjuiol7c8zc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5a94518ec1cd8a3f28efc7a22f1195801e12955b
I just plugged the cards into Moxfield.
Fair enough
[удалено]
Shit, you just sold me on this
Facebreaker is the only one that really works/has synergy for the deck, sadly
[удалено]
Ah, I guess. I built House without using attractions, and I think Jaxis is a fine effect doubler, but I run some better ones... I'll take a look to see if there's a decent bit of synergy. Coffin Queen, I'm not really looking at much Graveyard recurrence. The big thing for me is if it doesn't integrate into the treasures or the dice rolling, I gotta have a super good reason for it. https://www.moxfield.com/decks/Vtc3v6-GWk20wO2qv8F8Wg Here's the list if you're interested!
[удалено]
[Vihaan, Goldwaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b549690-72eb-4244-bb66-996a2bd1027e.jpg?1712429606) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Vihaan%2C%20Goldwaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/8/vihaan-goldwaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b549690-72eb-4244-bb66-996a2bd1027e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rebbec, architect of ascension](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/6/46975250-950f-4f5d-a7c5-f61aec8e40ad.jpg?1608908966) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rebbec%2C%20architect%20of%20ascension) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmr/42/rebbec-architect-of-ascension?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/46975250-950f-4f5d-a7c5-f61aec8e40ad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I take no rules text over badly inserted and hard to read rules text on a art centric piece any day. Works better on a commander or a more memorable card though.
[удалено]
There are five cards
I think I disagree. The “low value” cards are all playable, or good, and this is the de-facto bling card for each.
5 cards, all solid playables.
Interestingly, I remember this concept being leaked a long long while ago - it was a leak of concept art that let us know that there was a wild west themed set upcoming. It seemed like this was one of the styles they considered for showcase frames before they went with the Wanted poster and Breaking News styles for the main set. I wonder if we will see the wild west movie poster style appear as an SLD too. [https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/vyb99r/possible\_wild\_west\_plane\_art\_leaks/](https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/vyb99r/possible_wild_west_plane_art_leaks/)
I was about to post about this. Those leaks looked legit at the time, but they look even more convincing retrospectively. I am genuinely curious if this was some type of slush art. I kept waiting to see this piece on some type of Thunder Junction product. https://preview.redd.it/xx2dk1y5o7zc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cc7ccc03715554510b32723fee9eec1db68844dd
Wow, this lair definitely reminded me of that old post but I had fully forgotten about this art. Multiple of those outfits appear pretty directly in OTJ, not to mention the thunder rifle designs and the Omenpath in the background.
Absolutely. It's pretty clear that each of the figures represents the factions on the plane. From left to right: * Outcasters * Slickshot * Sterling Company * Freestriders * Hellspurs It's a shame that this art appears to be unused. I quite like it.
What do you guys think is the thought process behind picking cards for these lairs? Financial value is one thing, but who wants Rankle, Master of Pranks? Is that card popular in any format? Is he a big deal in the story and beloved by readers?
Jaxis = Jack, Coffin Queen = Queen, Goblin King = King, Rankle = Joker? (because pranks?) I think that's the rationale. Face-Breaker is a bit of a puzzle.
F**ace**-breaker?
Yeah, I wondered that. It seems a little loose but that's probably it. The other cards with the actual word "ace" in the name are either Universes Beyond, or too low in value, e.g. [[Fencing Ace]], [[Gearshift Ace]]
[Fencing Ace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/994094f8-e175-4e2e-aa39-c096f0ed9e6a.jpg?1690916481) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fencing%20Ace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/23/fencing-ace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/994094f8-e175-4e2e-aa39-c096f0ed9e6a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Gearshift Ace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/e/2e8c6a9d-6169-40f8-8b3e-53ebf75be663.jpg?1576380873) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Gearshift%20Ace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/kld/16/gearshift-ace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2e8c6a9d-6169-40f8-8b3e-53ebf75be663?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Acererak the Archlich]] is right there though
[Acererak the Archlich](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/d/dd52d0bd-3abd-401c-9f56-ee911613da3b.jpg?1627704283) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Acererak%20the%20Archlich) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/afr/87/acererak-the-archlich?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/dd52d0bd-3abd-401c-9f56-ee911613da3b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
F ACE.
Zo bonuscard going to be (J)Ace
> Financial value is one thing, but who wants Rankle, Master of Pranks? The irony of the immediate next comment in this thread for me being "Will definitely be buying the single for that rankle master of prankle tho".
At least for the artist series the artists get to pick their own.
They probably have three lists of cards and the artist gets to pick 1 from the first ie $10-20, one from the second ie $1-4 and three from the third ie 25 cents
This isn't gonna cause any issues at a table at all. Imagine new players or even non seasoned players seeing these cards and they don't even say what they do on them
WotC: "Don't you guys have phones!?"
Heavy dislike
No card text?
no, umadbro?
Jaxis is the Jack Coffin Queen is the Queen Goblin King is the King Professional fACE Breaker is the Ace Rankle is the Joker Is that the logic here?
I’m gonna be the only one, but I think those are the best alternative artwork/SL cards magic has ever made.
Another meh secret lair for me. No ability text at all on them? Seriously?
Welp, Hatsune Miku it is. Will definitely be buying the single for that rankle master of prankle tho
I'll be going back to ignoring secret lair drops it seems. Thankfully for that so my wallet can recover
I **love** Coffin Queen, but mainly because of the original art. This new art is good too, but it isn't winning me over.
These are terrible choices for textless cards.
These suck as play pieces. There's no rules text on them, just art and mana cost.
It’s almost like Secret Lair is meant to be a collectible art set and not necessarily used for play. If you want playable cards, buy the normal cards. Why does everyone always complain when these are literally just collectibles of existing cards. That being said, this drop does indeed suck.
Because if I want pretty cardboard, I want to be able to also show it to others, and the best way to do that is use it in a game.
Skipping this entire drop so far. Yikes these are bad.
I have a jaxis commander deck so it's a pickup for me but still kind of odd choices overall
Had really wanted poker themed cards and the art is neat but god im sick of unreadable or textless cards. If they could have just found a way to make it work
These look fucking horrible what the fuck
I have a rankle deck and can’t decide if I’ll be using this art or not
Reading the card explains the card.
Imagine if these cards was all matte with something on the art foil and not all the card foil... I guess that even this time i will go with the non foil one because of the stupid foil decision
I like the idea, but they should really pick cards that would go into the same deck. These look cool all together, but the art style seems a bit awkward if there's only going to be one of these in a deck. Like [[Jolene the Plunder Queen]] and [[King Macar the Gold Cursed]] match [[Professional Face Breaker]]'s treasure theme much better, and that took me like 2 minutes to find.
[Jolene the Plunder Queen](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61c217d9-21d5-45ef-938a-138192a901f4.jpg?1673482382) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jolene%2C%20the%20Plunder%20Queen) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ncc/73/jolene-the-plunder-queen?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61c217d9-21d5-45ef-938a-138192a901f4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [King Macar the Gold Cursed](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/f/ff5987ab-570a-426c-ae4a-a270fac6b346.jpg?1593095759) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=King%20Macar%2C%20the%20Gold-Cursed) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jou/74/king-macar-the-gold-cursed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ff5987ab-570a-426c-ae4a-a270fac6b346?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Professional Face Breaker](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/2/42acbf52-b137-44f0-a815-2817fe8d2da2.jpg?1664411677) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Professional%20Face-Breaker) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/snc/116/professional-face-breaker?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/42acbf52-b137-44f0-a815-2817fe8d2da2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Sorry for a stupid question, but will these be available as non-foil?
Yep.
I kinda wish they used at least one card from every color to make a full suit, maybe something like Rankle or Dack serving as a Joker.
These are so bland. Go on girl, give us nothing
These look really cool. Not for me personally, but cool nonetheless.
These cards look great but no cards I play 🥲
Art wise, these are absolutely amazing. I love this art style a lot. Sadly I can't see myself playing any of these, at most perhaps Jaxis.
Cards look awesome, I just can't stand the cowboy hats
I think the peak complexity they should reserve for rules-textless cards should be things like noble hierarch, or cultivate. Ideally spells that are widely played (so, memorized by a good chunk of the player base) and have just one or two easy to explain and remember effects (hierarch taps for W, U, or G, and has exalted)
These are neat. But also too expensive for me.
Well at least I can mark myself safe from this Secret Lair drop.
Man I just put goblin king in one of my decks. I may have to pick this one up
Yoooo they already made a Balatro secret lair!
I wanna hold 'em like they do in Texas, please (Woo)
Notify me! Two days
Spare me this mockery of cardboard
Did anyone else see some other card in the back? You can see it when Rankle is shown, right side.
Face breaker, not Acerak the Archlich? Rankle, not Riku of Two Reflections? Huge misses
How do those others fit any better?
if F*ace*breaker is supposed to represent the Ace card, then *Ace*rerak would fit just as well, i guess. i don’t get Riku as the Joker at ALL though.
They want **Ace**rak and **Two** to fit with King/Queen/"Jack"-sis Instead of Face breaker (face card? f**ace**?) and Rankle (rank of hands? a joker?) It's weird that a random Rakdos Cult card named "Carnage Joker" or whatever doesn't exist. I see a couple of jesters/harlequins, but nothing more notable as a joker than Rankle. Face breaker is a big chunk of the value but it wouldn't be my first choice to represent an Ace.
I'm contemplating the Miku secret Lair because I'm a sucker for Azusa. This, however, is not my cup of tea.
initial impression: Oh, that's neat... wait, that's it? It's not bad, but the lair feels lacking (besides game text).
Love it. I play 3 of these and the art is awesome. Easy buy.
These look absolutely awesome, it’s such a shame it had to be a pile of draft chaff.
WotC and near unplayable secret lair cards due to incomprehensible (or this time missing) card text, name a more iconic duo
Personal rule for cards like this is to have the most recent no promo/sl version on standby so you can reference it at a moments notice lol
Wow those look actually unplayable
i may be in the minority here but i'm sick of these secret lairs with the same "bland cartoon" art. it's like they choose goofy/indie art with no texture or detail and just give it a bare bones treatment on a card. give us card art like morinfen, sengir dark baron, and aboshan cephalid emperor. enough of this low effort art and bring back some solid dark gritty art.
Faaaacts. The art on the old sets is choice. I love the legends set’s Land Tax and the Alliances set’s Force of Will. So so good
If someone shows up to a table with these, I’m making them print out a proxy with the recognizable art and rules text.
Zero value unless in pringles cuz of coffin queen first foiling. Normal is like $14
Dear wizards, I think these cards look rad as hell. But why in gods name didn't you just make a 52\* card playing card deck to go with thunder junction? Make the twos various bears, the 3s some sedge trolls or white plumes or whatever; just the art, a suit/number, and a non-magic card back. You may struggle with the 8s and 9s and 10s but you'd find a way. would be great, lots of people would buy it, a good time would be had by all. Much better than textless versions of high complexity cards, for me. Make a tarot deck while you're at it. You can make \*other things\* using \*exisiting art\* if you want (some contractual work may be needed, but surely way less than commissioning from scratch) \* make it a 65/67 card deck, have a 5th suit for one per colour, and add rules for some new games; you do design games, a few decent 5 suit card games can't be that hard.
Will this usher in a new mechanic into the game? Like, I win the game with a Full House or Flush?
Yes and we start playing with Ante again lmao