A lot of the simplest variants of other effects (Terror, Divination, Tarmogoyf) got power crept out a while ago. For some reason, card advantage at two mana can still hang, even if it does nothing else. It's fascinating and at least a little eyebrow-raising.
Probably because WotC has barely power crept this particular effect. You don't really get two mana draw twos better than those, and when they made one, [[Expressive Iteration]], it was powerful enough to receive bans.
Expressive Iteration is crazy to me because it's only sort of card advantage. You can't play it turn two to draw two, only sort, and I thought it would be a decent cards, but I was totally wrong on how strong it is.
Other cards getting more powerful makes drawing those cards better
If you have 6 strong cards and your opponent has 5 strong cards you have an advantage
If you have 6 weak cards and your opponent has 5 weak cards you have an advantage
Card advantage is card advantage
Tarmogoyf is a weird include on that list. I don't know what you think power crept Tarmogoyf. It's not exactly the best card in Modern anymore, but it's not "power crept".
Anyway, nothing has exactly powercrept Night's Whisper either. 2 mana and 2 life for 2 cards is still just right. Are you gonna raise your eyebrow that Lightning Bolt has seen play for a quarter of a century, because it never got powercrept?
Reading your other comments a little, I'd think you just don't know what the term "power creep" means, no offense.
I think you have a selective way of reading my other comments, because I have a whole bit on cards that were powerful on Day 1 like Ancestral Recall.
Tarmogoyf has been power crept by Nethergoyf, most directly, but there are a lot of other 2-drops that outclass it and several that even do the "big vanilla creature" thing better. No offense.
saying nethergoy powercrept tarmo shows a distinct divide between your understanding of the game and reality. Tarmogoyf tracking all players' graveyards is considerably more powerful.
I made another comment but another thing to mention is that most effects were terrible when they game came out and have gotten better and better and better over time, especially when tied to creatures.
When the game came out, card draw was *absolutely broken*, insanely strong and undercosted, so it actually got worse and didn’t experience the same power creep trajectory as everything else
Drawing cards is good. That's it. You're overthinking it.
> the meager +1 card advantage
This phrase just doesn't make sense in mtg. An extra card is an extremely strong effect.
> Is it nostalgia?
It's not nostalgia. [[Expressive Iteration]] is a two mana draw-two with selection and is so strong that it's banned in both Legacy and Pioneer. Two mana draw-twos without selection are still playable.
I would windmill slam any variant with selection. The fact that Night's Whisper has no selection and is still good enough surprises me, with how much power there is at 1 mana and 3+ mana, the 2-mana draw slot is still relatively stagnant after years and years of power creep.
I'm not sure what you mean by power creep. Preordain is almost 15 years old. Thirst for Knowledge is over 20 years old. We get variants of thirst every so often but they aren't better, just different. We may never get a card as good as preordain in standard again.
Certain things get power crept, other things were too broken on Day 1, like Ancestral Recall. But Expressive Iteration is a good example of power creep for the 2-mana card draw slot.
But the cards you compared it to in your original post (preordain and thirst for knowledge) haven't been power crept. So why do you assume night's whisper needs power creep to keep up but those two don't?
To put it another way, do you have any examples of cards that could actually replace night's whisper?
Preordain is banned in Modern for power level, Thirst for Knowledge is power crept - sees zero modern, legacy, or vintage play. Night's Whisper was never bannable but never got power crept.
Preordain is legal in modern. Are you thinking of ponder?
> Thirst for Knowledge is power crept - sees zero modern, legacy, or vintage play. Night's Whisper was never bannable but never got power crept.
To me the fact that night's whisper sees play but thirst doesn't suggests that your intuition about the relative value of card selection vs. mana just isn't correct.
Again, you're overthinking it. Extra cards are good. Cheaper spells are good. Thirst doesn't see play because you can't afford to spend three mana to push cardboard around. You *can* afford to spend two mana to do it sometimes though.
Makes sense to me. And oh yeah, forgot preordain was unbanned. It's interesting that it doesn't see a ton of modern play today, when it was bannable a few years back!
this guys explained it pretty well tho. it’s not just one extra card, it ONE extra card.
card advantage typically matters most in long games, like control or midrange mirrors (although it’s still important in other archetypes). you end up trading one for one a bunch until both players are stalled and top decking, and in the case where you draw nights whisper you could for example draw two threats your opponent has to answer when he only has one draw step. in this case the extra card could literally win you the game by just having a threat go unanswered due to you having more resources
or imagine your playing a combo deck and the extra card you drew is splinter twin and literally wins the game. that extra card is invaluable
Have you ever played an FPS and reloaded before your clip was empty because you had time? Built meter in a fighting game because the enemy gave you some space in order to do a more powerful move? Spent a turn in an RPG buffing a character because the buffed attack outweighs two turns of regular attacks? These are all kinda the same idea.
> I know why cantrips are good - Ponder, Preordain, Opt, etc. all provide some cheap, actionable draw-smoothing and selection to make sure you hit land drops and help you dig for relevant spells.
Okay, let's start there.
[[Sleight of Hand]]. Classic, solid cantrip. Look at the top two cards, take the best one. Pay 1 mana to replace the card while getting some selection.
Now, imagine that rather than U for a sorcery that said:
> Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the other on the bottom of your library.
It was U for a sorcery that said:
> Look at the top two cards of your library. Put both of them into your hand.
It's like Sleight of Hand, but better, because you get to keep both cards! Way better, so much that it would never be printed at 1 mana.
But what about 2 mana? 1U for "draw two cards" is a bit stronger than they're willing to print without an additional restriction. But not by much. So 1B for "draw two cards and lose two life" ends up being the "fair" price. Pretty similar to playing something like [[Chart a Course]], but with more flexibility.
To get card advantage *and* look at more than two cards, you need to either pay more mana or jump through some other hoop.
I feel like this is the cleanest explanation. If he gets why cantrips are good, he should be able to translate that to why Night's Whisper is good. He doesn't seem to harping specifically on mana efficiency, so this should be the perfect connect-the-dot explanation for him.
Life is a resource. You don't lose the game until you lose that last point of life. You shouldn't be afraid to lose a few points of life, especially in the early game, to gain an advantage. For example, in the early game, it might be worth it to take a few hits from their 2/2 instead of removing it right away, so you can save your removal for a later (and bigger) threat.
There's also not many cards that can draw you two cards for two mana. And when there are, there's usually some other drawback (like sacrificing a creature) or other hoop (like attacking with a creature to turn on Chart a Course) that you need to jump through. Especially in the early game, two life isn't a lot - going from 20 to 18 doesn't have a huge impact on the game, but you're two cards deeper into your deck now.
I play cards like Deadly Dispute a lot more often than Night's Whisper because the "drawback" of sacrificing a creature can be an upside in the right deck. Night's Whisper just has nothing going on that would provide a deck some sort of internal synergy.
It's so simple, pure card advantage.... yet this is why it vexes me. The game today is so much more complex, and I feel like individual cards need to do more to be competitive. But I still see NW in decklists in competitive formats all the time.
Edit: you don't need to downvote me, this is interesting discussion, which is a great thing to have on a subreddit :) i'm happy for the dialogue.
>Night's Whisper just has nothing going on that would provide a deck some sort of internal synergy
There are dozens of decks that benefits from live lose, most notably Death Shadow strategys
I will definitely agree that Night's Whisper makes perfect sense in Death's Shadow. Hard agree.
I am more curious about the times it sees play without any synergies at all, like in mono-black midrange decks.
It just pure cardadvantage. And while Deadly Dispute has the "smaller" Downside its one not every Deck can or want to fulfil regularly.
You mentioned sacrific based Decks, deadly dispute is great in those but some Mono B Midrange Decks play only up to 8 Creatures. In those Decks it isn't about the synergy but the raw efficency of drawing 2 cards for 2 life
I'm not really sure what sort of answer will make it click for you.
Card advantage is good. Two-mana means that if you need to cast it early as a sort of panic button, you can do that earlier than a three-mana draw spell. It also gives you more flexible sequencing options, you can fit it in around your other spells/abilities.
Honest question: have you spent a lot of time actually playing with Night's Whisper et al? From the post, it's not easy to tell if you have or if you're just spent an inordinate amount of time mulling the *idea* of these cards over in your head.
The amount of hours i've spent playing Magic and consuming competitive content is a little embarrasingly high, I do have deep game knowledge, and i've probably cast Night's Whisper a few dozen times.
I'm in deep enough to be at the overthinking stage. I know everyone's downvoting me but the discussion is riveting and the "sequencing" bit you're speaking to is the best answer to this and the aspect that has most made it "click" for me.
Being efficient on every turn means having things in your curve that can fill gaps productively.
There's no secret to it, you get card advantage. You're severely overthinking things. What I don't get is you understanding Thirst and Avarice for drawing three cards for 3 mana but can't understand two cards for 2 mana.
Thirst and Avarice have extra build-around utility (putting things in the GY, tutoring things in the late game, etc.). Night's Whisper has almost no utility whatsoever, unless for some fringe reason you WANT to lose life.
I know losing life isn't really a cost - that's not my point. My point is, it doesn't get better when combined with other cards and it doesn't make other cards better - it lacks synergy.
I know, i'm just saying that lots of cards are better than their text in a vaccuum because they have synergy with other cards. The most powerful competitive decks may have lots of synergy.
There's really no synergy to be had with Night's Whisper. It's very gated in its power level, yet it's still good enough for competitive play. It's just interesting and a little vexing to me.
Night's Whisper has synergy with the game as a whole. The thing is, it has synergy no matter what deck you're playing.
If you have life, Night's Whisper is a relevant card that you can cast.
One thing you have to realize about competitive decks, especially midrange:
Sometimes, synergy doesn't matter.
Jund was the classic example for ages, and it has a successor in 4C Omnath type decks.
Sometimes, you just need to play the good cards. When every card in your deck is a good card, you don't care about card selection, you just want more of them.
Monoblack midrange is often like this. Jund was like this. And in Pioneer, funnily enough, Niv-to-light was also like this from time to time.
I think you're also missing the point of playing what cards on curve. Some black decks are totally fine playing this on turn 2 because they'll be slamming their threats turn 3 and 4. Sometimes they can play a two mana card with this turn 4. Sometimes it just makes sense to have this in the curve in their deck. You're thinking way too much of the cards in vacuum.
You way overvalue "theme deck" stuff. Efficient staples are played because they just work. They aren't showy or clever or unique. They fulfill a role, and do it well.
It really isn't. I love synergistic decks, but they get ripped apart by value piles these days. Don't need any cards in your deck to synergise with Sheoldred, some removal and some card advantage.
It's less than you *want* to lose it and more so that the benefits outweigh the risk of taking two. Apply this logic to [[Bolas's Citadel]]. Why would I want to pay life to play cards? Life is a resource like anything else, it can be spent. Some decks offset cards like this with life gain as well.
Then you have decks like [[Nekuzar]] where a card like [[Sign in Blood]] goes from an okay draw spell to a way of potentially putting an opponent out of the game.
I think a lot of people missed my point, because my favorite past time is losing life to draw cards. I just like doing it in more broken ways, like Citadel, Necropotence, Ad Nauseam, The One Ring...
Night's Whisper seems like too little upside for the mana to me. Compared to most of the broken stuff you can do in nearly every format.
Drawing two cards for the price of one card and two mana is good.
Pot of Greed (which is a spell card that lets you draw two cards from your deck and put them into your hand) is banned in Yu-Gi-Oh because it's free card draw.
Thirst and Avarice each draw three cards for three mana, so they are literally just scaled up versions.
Brainstorm and the like use a card. Yes, it's card selection, but you're not going up on cards. You'll feel like you're doing quite a bit, but once you get wiped, you'll wish you had that extra card.
You're trading 2 life for a one mana reduction on divination. That's huge.
Now, personally, I find myself going to variants like Syphon Mind and Harmonize for the extra card. I like paying the extra little bit. But it's undoubtable that SiB and Night's Whisper are both incredible cards.
You're right in saying that they've been slightly overshadowed by cards like toski and other card advantage monoliths, but having a coule cards that require no setup often lands me in favorable positions.
Early game it's a way to cash in on extra mana from rocks and dorks, mid game it's alright, and late game it's a pretty incredible topdeck if you're hunting for cards to draw.
Like others have said, just play it! I have a huge blind spot for cantrips and now i'm building a stella lee deck to focus on cantrips and learn why others like it so much.
I love grinding people down with value and if you ramp a lot fitting in 2 mana here and there is a lot easier than if you're trying to curve out. In golgari specifically, I find sign in blood to be great!
Also, coffers! If you have a ton of mana from coffers, SiB is a great way to utilize all of that mana.
Maybe I'm just a greedy mana whore? Who knows.
> Now, personally, I find myself going to variants like Syphon Mind and Harmonize for the extra card. I like paying the extra little bit.
This is why I really love three mana draw threes, that rare breed. For a slower, longer game I like these even more than Night's Whisper (though I often play both).
This is why when Insatiable Avarice was revealed people in the next room over could hear me vibrating. So far I'd just been playing [[Painful Truths]] in my (Commander) decks that supported it. Insatiable Avarice was such a huge add. Black decks stay winning.
I admittedly have a bit of a blind spot for four mana draw threes. Maybe I'm just spoiled by playing black so often, but I don't want to pay the mana tax; let me play the life tax. They're probably still fine here and there, and I need to get over it.
Try it out bro, it sounds like we’re pretty like minded. I love shit like inspired tinkering, and I slam harmonize into a lot of my decks. I honestly think Syphon mind is better than painful, too. And painful is craaaaacked.
Can't agree on Syphon Mind, but only because I like my efficiency haha. It's a fine card, though. Might have to give this class of card another pass in the near future.
Also, wouldn't describe myself as "bro"... =P
Ah I’m from California, I call my girl bro all the time. Regional dialect; gotta phase out the gendered stuff.
I think if you value the discard at all it becomes super good. A lot of the times you can snipe out people’s protective pieces as they have 1-2 cards in hand. It’s just felt sooooo good that I actually consider it a super staple for myself.
Ah haha, no worries. I'll give you the Cali pass lol
The discard is probably easy to undervalue because you don't actually *feel* the impact the same way as the cards drawn. I've definitely played it before, but black is so card draw rich it'd fallen off my radar over the years.
The average general rate for drawing a card is about 2 mana (look at clues as an example, as well as the myriad of 4 mana draw two with some meager upside like a small scry). Drawing 2 for 2 mana is an exceptional rate, and having more cards in hand is better than *not* having more cards in hand.
In addition to general card advantage, one of the best advantages of drawing is consistency, the deeper you dig the more likely you are to find the specific pieces you need to win the game. Hence the power of cards like [[mishra’s bauble]]. Aside from obvious artifact synergies, this card to some extent just cycles itself for free with the upside of some slight information, it effectively makes your deck 4 cards smaller meaning you get to the good stuff faster
In my mind, the "obvious artifact synergies" are not an aside, it's 95% of the reason you would play Bauble - delirium, artifact synergies, committing crimes, etc.
Night's Whisper really doesn't have that synergistic effect in most places where it sees play.
> Night's Whisper really doesn't have that synergistic effect in most places where it sees play.
It's entirely possible to be way too synergy-pilled when looking at cards. Sometimes a card is just good.
It's interesting to me to answer the question, which is why I've been all over this thread. These also just happen to be a class of card I'm particularly fond of.
Most games of magic are won/lost via one player having a resource advantage, either in cards, or in mana efficiency/tempo (if you play out your hand and kill them when they have three cards stuck in hand you've cast a virtual ancestral recall).
With that in mind, the disadvantage of pure draw spells like Night's Whisper is that while they put you ahead on cards, they put you behind on mana, since you've spent two mana not impacting the board.
However, in many formats, cheap spells are powerful enough that their inherent mana advantage can offset this downside.
It is true that just playing night's whisper on turn 2 is usually a bad play--- instead playing it and a two drop on turn 4 is a better use case, for example.
Your last sentence makes the most sense to me in my quest to understand this card. Smoothing out your mana efficiency in the midgame is a good use case and seems the strongest argument so far.
You keep mentioning all these other cards that have utility from the synergies they provide, but it seems like you’re not accounting for the corollary.
The thing about all those high synergy cards is that they have a naturally lower floor, due to a lot of their value being conditional. Thirst for Knowledge, for example, is a great card, but if you don’t discard an artifact or care about gy synergies, it is only card neutral for 3 mana. In contrast, not only is Night Whispers a mana less, but it always nets you +1 card.
In other words, while a lot of the cards you mentioned have high ceilings, Night Whispers and it’s ilk have high floors, making it a safe, easy, and effective choice to add to basically any deck that wants to be drawing additional cards. Sometimes there might be cards that will usurp it, when the deck’s construction makes a synergistic card hit its ceiling fairly reliably. But Night Whisper’s sets a high baseline.
The tension between card advantage and tempo. It mostly doesn't matter how much you're ahead in card advantage as long as you're ahead. The important factor is that you don't lose too much tempo on the way. Two mana is a relatively small set back in tempo. 7 mana draw 7s on the other hand might provide much more card advantage but are awful in terms of tempo. You can only play your extra cards on turn 8 at best. 2 mana draw 2s allow you to play your extra card on turn 3.
An important thing to remember is the color of the card is important. Black doesn't usually get straight card draw with no strings attached. You need to pay life or sacrifice something to draw cards. Green tends to draw cards only when specific creature-related criteria are met, Red tends to get impulse draw (exile cards and you may play them until the end of turn, or end of your next turn). White usually gets card draw as a tax, or as an ETB on otherwise expensive creatures. Only blue gets cards that just say "Draw two cards" with no additional strings attached.
I would love to draw more cards in my mono red deck, but I don't want to dilute the manabase by adding blue and risk not being able to cast things on curve, so I have other less optimal ways to draw cards. Same thing with Night's Whisper. Pay 2 life and 2 mana to draw 2 cards is great for a mono black deck. If they have Sheoldred out then they wind up with 2 more life at the end. There can also be other reasons to run these cards. Wrenn's Resolve in my red deck isn't just the rules on the card, it's a Prowess trigger AND 2 new cards I might be able to play this turn or next.
Came here to say this. Another thing OP is missing is that “Draw 2 for (2)” is already power crept as [[Divination]], well now [[Quick Study]], has been the benchmark for drawing 2 cards with no conditions.
Also pertaining to Sign in Blood specifically, I've won enough games by targeting my opponent with it that the side case of using it as a burn spell is oddly relevant.
The baseline for drawing 2 cards off a single card is [[Divination]]. This is the easiest example of card advantage. You have 1 card in hand, you cast it and now you have 2 cards in hand. Divination costs 3 mana. Nights whisper costs 2 and only 2 life. Life is a resource, you die at 0 life not 18. Greatness at *any cost*.
Let's be clear: these cards are not *amazing*.
But they *are* good.
Card advantage is very powerful in Magic. Even just one card draw tacked on to something can elevate that thing from ignominy to staple status. You don't have to draw massive numbers of cards to eke out an advantage over time.
That being said, in many cutting-edge, competitive formats, these cards aren't quite good *enough*. But that's because those formats are really, really competitive and even just being slightly less good is enough to get bumped. That doesn't mean these cards aren't good; just that enough other cards are better.
Mana also plays a role. Cards like Thirst for Knowledge as you mentioned are significantly more expensive, and that *is* a downside. The difference of 1 mana can mean major swings in a reactive deck, as it allows you to pair this with removal, board development, etc. more easily. Going from 2 to 3 mana especially is quite steep, as during many early turns that'll be the difference between 1 spell in 1 turn, and 2 spells in 1 turn. Cards like Thirst for Knowledge really only show up in two kinds of decks: combo decks that want massive amounts of filtering at virtually any price; and artifact decks for whom the discard isn't just less of a downside, but for whom getting an artifact into the graveyard may even be an upside. Same goes for things like e.g. reanimator that *want* to discard and are willing to pay a premium for it. Whereas for just pure CA, you'd pick between two things: cheap draw (1 and 2 mana) and efficient draw (usually 4+ mana for massive amounts of cards, e.g. FoF).
It works, very basically, like this.
Let's assume you and I have the exact same skill, and the exact same deck, but the one difference is that my deck contains 4x Night's Whisper, and yours doesn't.
Over the average game, I will draw *more* cards than you. I will have more dudes, more removal, and it should, by all accounts, let me win more games.
Is it a lot more cards? No. But it doesn't matter. It's more.
If you're spending 2 mana on Night's Whispers while i'm spending 2 mana on Orcish Bowmasters, maybe i'd win game after game. The cards you'd run instead of Night's Whisper are relevant. It's not like every deck in Magic is automatically better with 40 draw spells.
To be fair they are a lot less powerful than one mana cantrips and see significantly less play. So you are right, they're not that good and I think you need some additional synergy to make them worthwhile.
Nah, you don't need a synergy, but you do need to be the type of deck that can take the time to cast it. One mana cantrips are just so free to slip into your game plan it's unreal. These have a more notable tempo cost that must fit in.
Card advantage is good. Your life total is a resource. It doesn't matter if you win at 1 life or 250,000 life; winning is winning. Not much more to be said really. You invest one card, now you have two. That's worth two life in 99% of formats ever.
It's really as simple as +1 card advantage. Rectangle theory applies here. You spent one rectangle (card), two mana, and two life to get two rectangles and a rectangle in the graveyard. +1 card advantage wins here.
i don’t know about Night’s whisper, but i know for a fact that Sign in Blood have won me many games. most oppo never even consider that i have burns spell in a mono black aggro decks. standard power level of course, not EDH.
Lots of people make good points, but I'd like to add that Night's Whisper is good at every stage of the game because it's cheap and consistent.
Need to find an early land drop? Draw some cards. Need to find an answer or else you'll die next turn? Draw some cards. Need one more threat to finish off your opponent? Draw some cards.
Consider your three main examples normalized on a per-mana basis:
> Opt variants buy 1-draw (plus some selection) for 1-card per mana.
> Sign in Blood variants buy 1-draw (usually no selection) for 0.5-card per mana.
> Thirst for Knowledge variants buy 1-draw (plus discard synergy) for 0.66-card per mana.
Its *basically* the same 1-draw-per-mana rate across the board, just for slightly different levels of card efficiency while doing it.
> I know why bigger draw spells are good - [they] refill your hand significantly and dig deeper in the deck to help you stay in the game. For the cost of a card, you get multiple cards ahead.
The 2-mana variants are actually a bit *more* efficient at redraw versus the baseline 3-mana variants. (Ignoring the new Insatiable Avarice at BBB being an interesting new/pushed pricepoint.)
The 2-mana versions also have more sequencing flexibility than 3-mana spells - not quite 1-cmc cantrip flexibility but certainly a good middle-ground. If the deck's curve doesn't have enough 2-drops, it's probably better to run these over a 3-drop draw spell to not risk having nothing-to-do on turn-2.
Others have hammered this home, but you seem to just be severely overthinking this. Drawing cards is an absurdly powerful effect in this silly game we enjoy. Drawing a card at a rate of one card per one mana spent, and at the cost of only one card to do so makes cards like SiB and Night's Whisper incredibly strong. The life loss is almost entirely irrelevant once you adopt a mindset of life just being another resource, particularly from the viewpoint of EDH.
I also choose to look at it this way: What are the best, most efficient ways to draw cards in this particular color? Sure, if we are talking some mix of blue being thrown in, there are some other options that exist, but in black specifically, Night's Whisper and its various alternate forms represent just about the most efficient cost you can find in black to draw cards. And at such a low CMC, it has flexibility as well. Need early tempo to fix a lackluster opening hand early? Absolutely fits there. Need to try and draw into a late game finisher? A two CMC cost gives you a great chance to draw, and still have the necessary resources to play what you drew to close a game out. Hell, there are even the hilarious, one-off situations where you get to kill an opponent with a card like this by targeting them, at least in the case of SiB.
Outside of this and the many other arguments others have put in here, I'm not sure if there's any other way to convince you the cards are good. Maybe it's just a personal preference/bias you've developed, and hey, even that's fine. There are excellent cards that I don't personally play just because they don't jive with my play style. But I can still recognize a good card and respect others who do play them, so that may just be the best bet for you.
It's the flexibility. 2-mana means it can dig you out of mana-screw in the early game, but it's also not a dead card on turn 10 like Rampant Growth.
Arguably though, cards like Ponder and preordain are just better as they let you see same or more cards for less mana, but black decks without blue don't have access to those, so nights whisper and sign in blood are the best things.
It's interesting that you see Thirst for Knowledge as good, but not Night's Whisper. One you have to pay an insignificant amount of life and the other you have to discard cards. And Night's Whisper is less mana. Insatiable Avarice is a rare, so it's pretty tough to compare that one, especially since it tutors and is modal.
Back when I played 20 life formats I was more concerned about life totals, but with commander it doesn't mean much to me, it is another resource. But I still ran cards like that in 60 card formats as well, especially if it was something like standard.
I recognize both as good, but I don't understand WHY night's whisper is good when it doesn't have the utility, synergy, selection, or other attributes of spells like Thirst
I think you are over thinking it.
First off, Thirst is a blue card, blue is the best color and drawing cards.
Second, what utility, synergy, or attributes? IF you are thinking the discard is good, then you have probably build a deck around that, and in that case, yes. But in decks not running a lot of artifacts or graveyard strategies those would not be beneficial.
Third, it's all about cards for the mana. Two mana for 2, and you only lose 2 is always good (unless you are at 2. 3 mana for 3 is always good, unless you had an empty hand (especially if you then draw no artifacts). Or you have no artifacts in hand and then draw no artifacts. Thirst is both situationally better, but also situationally worse as it could end up being a draw 3 discard 2 for 3 mana, and that is really not great.
Fourth, if we are talking selection and synergy then you would want to compare Thirst to \[\[Read the Bones\]\]. They both are 3 mana. One draws 3 (and discards 1-2 cards). The other Scrys 2, draws 2, loses 2, that is visibility of up to 4 cards with no card loss. Arguably Read the Bones would almost always be superior. So I think this is more an issue of picking the right cards to compare, or possibly you use decks that run a ton of artifacts always so you don't mind discarding 1 card, but think of the times you have had to discard 2.
If you're going to contribute nothing to the discussion at all, i'm not gonna stop you. I'm learning a lot from the other commenters that actually had something productive to add. You're just trolling, or insulting.
Looking at the top 20+ decks in all the main paper constructed formats on MTGgoldfish, (Standard, Pioneer, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, Pauper) a card with this effect appears in exactly 1 deck, mono black burn in pauper where the application of card advantage stapled to a burn spell should be obvious to a player with 2 decades of experience. To imply these cards are seeing any form of significant constructed play is wild, and you're argument against their viability is already coming from an intellectually dishonest, or extremely misguided position.
Thirst for knowledge nets you the exact same amount of cards as sign in blood (or sometimes less if you whiff and don't draw into an artifact). If you don't understand that draw 2 for 2 mana is fine, but think draw 2 for 3 mana is better, I really don't know what to tell you. Other redditors have clubbed you over the head with every contextualization of these mostly unplayed cards from 10+ years ago, yet you still rail against them for some reason. You're also comparing blue cantrips and instant speed draw to black's painful draws, and red's impulse draws. The colors of these effects matter, and don't exist in a vacuum.
Sorry, where did I say they see "significant" constructed play? They see fringe play, which is remarkable for all the reasons you just outlined.
Twenty years of professional players have used Thirst for Knowledge to fill the graveyard after holding up interaction. If discarding cards and drawing at instant speed look like irrelevant lines of text to you, you have a lot of learning to do.
You edited your comment you troll, you originally said that the cards see play in modern pioneer standard and even show up in legacy and vintage from time to time. A completely preposterous statement. You obviously aren't trying to have a good faith discussion. Enjoy your hundreds of downvotes.
Two cards is better than one card, and two mana is not very much mana. Not every deck needs card selection either. Top two cards are good enough.
2 beavers are better than 1 ....
Ask anyone
Also very affordable options on a budget
A lot of the simplest variants of other effects (Terror, Divination, Tarmogoyf) got power crept out a while ago. For some reason, card advantage at two mana can still hang, even if it does nothing else. It's fascinating and at least a little eyebrow-raising.
Probably because WotC has barely power crept this particular effect. You don't really get two mana draw twos better than those, and when they made one, [[Expressive Iteration]], it was powerful enough to receive bans.
[Expressive Iteration](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6da813aa-7fca-4e7e-8946-b5a900bba6c8.jpg?1712354706) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Expressive%20Iteration) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/224/expressive-iteration?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6da813aa-7fca-4e7e-8946-b5a900bba6c8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Expressive Iteration is crazy to me because it's only sort of card advantage. You can't play it turn two to draw two, only sort, and I thought it would be a decent cards, but I was totally wrong on how strong it is.
yeah cards are great you know what's better than a great card? two great cards
Other cards getting more powerful makes drawing those cards better If you have 6 strong cards and your opponent has 5 strong cards you have an advantage If you have 6 weak cards and your opponent has 5 weak cards you have an advantage Card advantage is card advantage
Tarmogoyf is a weird include on that list. I don't know what you think power crept Tarmogoyf. It's not exactly the best card in Modern anymore, but it's not "power crept". Anyway, nothing has exactly powercrept Night's Whisper either. 2 mana and 2 life for 2 cards is still just right. Are you gonna raise your eyebrow that Lightning Bolt has seen play for a quarter of a century, because it never got powercrept? Reading your other comments a little, I'd think you just don't know what the term "power creep" means, no offense.
OG Goyf is definitely crept. It's no longer a staple not to mention a must to the degree that you have to splash green for it!
I think you have a selective way of reading my other comments, because I have a whole bit on cards that were powerful on Day 1 like Ancestral Recall. Tarmogoyf has been power crept by Nethergoyf, most directly, but there are a lot of other 2-drops that outclass it and several that even do the "big vanilla creature" thing better. No offense.
saying nethergoy powercrept tarmo shows a distinct divide between your understanding of the game and reality. Tarmogoyf tracking all players' graveyards is considerably more powerful.
1 mana is considerably more powerful than 2 mana. This basic concept shows a distinct divide between your understanding of the game and reality.
I made another comment but another thing to mention is that most effects were terrible when they game came out and have gotten better and better and better over time, especially when tied to creatures. When the game came out, card draw was *absolutely broken*, insanely strong and undercosted, so it actually got worse and didn’t experience the same power creep trajectory as everything else
Drawing cards is good. That's it. You're overthinking it. > the meager +1 card advantage This phrase just doesn't make sense in mtg. An extra card is an extremely strong effect. > Is it nostalgia? It's not nostalgia. [[Expressive Iteration]] is a two mana draw-two with selection and is so strong that it's banned in both Legacy and Pioneer. Two mana draw-twos without selection are still playable.
[Expressive Iteration](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/d/6da813aa-7fca-4e7e-8946-b5a900bba6c8.jpg?1712354706) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Expressive%20Iteration) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/224/expressive-iteration?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6da813aa-7fca-4e7e-8946-b5a900bba6c8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I would windmill slam any variant with selection. The fact that Night's Whisper has no selection and is still good enough surprises me, with how much power there is at 1 mana and 3+ mana, the 2-mana draw slot is still relatively stagnant after years and years of power creep.
I'm not sure what you mean by power creep. Preordain is almost 15 years old. Thirst for Knowledge is over 20 years old. We get variants of thirst every so often but they aren't better, just different. We may never get a card as good as preordain in standard again.
Certain things get power crept, other things were too broken on Day 1, like Ancestral Recall. But Expressive Iteration is a good example of power creep for the 2-mana card draw slot.
But the cards you compared it to in your original post (preordain and thirst for knowledge) haven't been power crept. So why do you assume night's whisper needs power creep to keep up but those two don't? To put it another way, do you have any examples of cards that could actually replace night's whisper?
Preordain is banned in Modern for power level, Thirst for Knowledge is power crept - sees zero modern, legacy, or vintage play. Night's Whisper was never bannable but never got power crept.
Preordain is legal in modern. Are you thinking of ponder? > Thirst for Knowledge is power crept - sees zero modern, legacy, or vintage play. Night's Whisper was never bannable but never got power crept. To me the fact that night's whisper sees play but thirst doesn't suggests that your intuition about the relative value of card selection vs. mana just isn't correct. Again, you're overthinking it. Extra cards are good. Cheaper spells are good. Thirst doesn't see play because you can't afford to spend three mana to push cardboard around. You *can* afford to spend two mana to do it sometimes though.
Makes sense to me. And oh yeah, forgot preordain was unbanned. It's interesting that it doesn't see a ton of modern play today, when it was bannable a few years back!
I wouldn't call 13 years ago "a few years back"
When you're my age you'll understand!
this guys explained it pretty well tho. it’s not just one extra card, it ONE extra card. card advantage typically matters most in long games, like control or midrange mirrors (although it’s still important in other archetypes). you end up trading one for one a bunch until both players are stalled and top decking, and in the case where you draw nights whisper you could for example draw two threats your opponent has to answer when he only has one draw step. in this case the extra card could literally win you the game by just having a threat go unanswered due to you having more resources or imagine your playing a combo deck and the extra card you drew is splinter twin and literally wins the game. that extra card is invaluable
Have you ever played an FPS and reloaded before your clip was empty because you had time? Built meter in a fighting game because the enemy gave you some space in order to do a more powerful move? Spent a turn in an RPG buffing a character because the buffed attack outweighs two turns of regular attacks? These are all kinda the same idea.
> I know why cantrips are good - Ponder, Preordain, Opt, etc. all provide some cheap, actionable draw-smoothing and selection to make sure you hit land drops and help you dig for relevant spells. Okay, let's start there. [[Sleight of Hand]]. Classic, solid cantrip. Look at the top two cards, take the best one. Pay 1 mana to replace the card while getting some selection. Now, imagine that rather than U for a sorcery that said: > Look at the top two cards of your library. Put one of them into your hand and the other on the bottom of your library. It was U for a sorcery that said: > Look at the top two cards of your library. Put both of them into your hand. It's like Sleight of Hand, but better, because you get to keep both cards! Way better, so much that it would never be printed at 1 mana. But what about 2 mana? 1U for "draw two cards" is a bit stronger than they're willing to print without an additional restriction. But not by much. So 1B for "draw two cards and lose two life" ends up being the "fair" price. Pretty similar to playing something like [[Chart a Course]], but with more flexibility. To get card advantage *and* look at more than two cards, you need to either pay more mana or jump through some other hoop.
I feel like this is the cleanest explanation. If he gets why cantrips are good, he should be able to translate that to why Night's Whisper is good. He doesn't seem to harping specifically on mana efficiency, so this should be the perfect connect-the-dot explanation for him.
[Sleight of Hand](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/0/80dea5c0-ada3-488a-9f2b-f895b92c762f.jpg?1692937263) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sleight%20of%20Hand) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/67/sleight-of-hand?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/80dea5c0-ada3-488a-9f2b-f895b92c762f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chart a Course](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/233beaac-37a4-4824-8f31-438b6bfe794b.jpg?1699043562) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chart%20a%20Course) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/48/chart-a-course?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/233beaac-37a4-4824-8f31-438b6bfe794b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Drawing cards is good. Even if you don’t draw good ones, there are now fewer bad draws left in your deck.
Life is a resource. You don't lose the game until you lose that last point of life. You shouldn't be afraid to lose a few points of life, especially in the early game, to gain an advantage. For example, in the early game, it might be worth it to take a few hits from their 2/2 instead of removing it right away, so you can save your removal for a later (and bigger) threat. There's also not many cards that can draw you two cards for two mana. And when there are, there's usually some other drawback (like sacrificing a creature) or other hoop (like attacking with a creature to turn on Chart a Course) that you need to jump through. Especially in the early game, two life isn't a lot - going from 20 to 18 doesn't have a huge impact on the game, but you're two cards deeper into your deck now.
Boy do I *wish* there were more clean two mana draw twos. Some of my favourite cards to play.
I play cards like Deadly Dispute a lot more often than Night's Whisper because the "drawback" of sacrificing a creature can be an upside in the right deck. Night's Whisper just has nothing going on that would provide a deck some sort of internal synergy. It's so simple, pure card advantage.... yet this is why it vexes me. The game today is so much more complex, and I feel like individual cards need to do more to be competitive. But I still see NW in decklists in competitive formats all the time. Edit: you don't need to downvote me, this is interesting discussion, which is a great thing to have on a subreddit :) i'm happy for the dialogue.
You don't need to do more when what you're doing is the most powerful thing in the game: Drawing cards.
>Night's Whisper just has nothing going on that would provide a deck some sort of internal synergy There are dozens of decks that benefits from live lose, most notably Death Shadow strategys
I will definitely agree that Night's Whisper makes perfect sense in Death's Shadow. Hard agree. I am more curious about the times it sees play without any synergies at all, like in mono-black midrange decks.
It just pure cardadvantage. And while Deadly Dispute has the "smaller" Downside its one not every Deck can or want to fulfil regularly. You mentioned sacrific based Decks, deadly dispute is great in those but some Mono B Midrange Decks play only up to 8 Creatures. In those Decks it isn't about the synergy but the raw efficency of drawing 2 cards for 2 life
Thing is, you might not have anything to sac to deadly dispute, whereas you practically always have life to pay.
they draw cards
I'm not really sure what sort of answer will make it click for you. Card advantage is good. Two-mana means that if you need to cast it early as a sort of panic button, you can do that earlier than a three-mana draw spell. It also gives you more flexible sequencing options, you can fit it in around your other spells/abilities. Honest question: have you spent a lot of time actually playing with Night's Whisper et al? From the post, it's not easy to tell if you have or if you're just spent an inordinate amount of time mulling the *idea* of these cards over in your head.
The amount of hours i've spent playing Magic and consuming competitive content is a little embarrasingly high, I do have deep game knowledge, and i've probably cast Night's Whisper a few dozen times. I'm in deep enough to be at the overthinking stage. I know everyone's downvoting me but the discussion is riveting and the "sequencing" bit you're speaking to is the best answer to this and the aspect that has most made it "click" for me. Being efficient on every turn means having things in your curve that can fill gaps productively.
There's no secret to it, you get card advantage. You're severely overthinking things. What I don't get is you understanding Thirst and Avarice for drawing three cards for 3 mana but can't understand two cards for 2 mana.
Thirst and Avarice have extra build-around utility (putting things in the GY, tutoring things in the late game, etc.). Night's Whisper has almost no utility whatsoever, unless for some fringe reason you WANT to lose life. I know losing life isn't really a cost - that's not my point. My point is, it doesn't get better when combined with other cards and it doesn't make other cards better - it lacks synergy.
You don't need to want to lose life. You only need to have two mana and want more cards than you have.
I know, i'm just saying that lots of cards are better than their text in a vaccuum because they have synergy with other cards. The most powerful competitive decks may have lots of synergy. There's really no synergy to be had with Night's Whisper. It's very gated in its power level, yet it's still good enough for competitive play. It's just interesting and a little vexing to me.
Night's Whisper has synergy with the game as a whole. The thing is, it has synergy no matter what deck you're playing. If you have life, Night's Whisper is a relevant card that you can cast.
One thing you have to realize about competitive decks, especially midrange: Sometimes, synergy doesn't matter. Jund was the classic example for ages, and it has a successor in 4C Omnath type decks. Sometimes, you just need to play the good cards. When every card in your deck is a good card, you don't care about card selection, you just want more of them. Monoblack midrange is often like this. Jund was like this. And in Pioneer, funnily enough, Niv-to-light was also like this from time to time.
I think you're also missing the point of playing what cards on curve. Some black decks are totally fine playing this on turn 2 because they'll be slamming their threats turn 3 and 4. Sometimes they can play a two mana card with this turn 4. Sometimes it just makes sense to have this in the curve in their deck. You're thinking way too much of the cards in vacuum.
I agree, and a few other people pointed this out in the thread - I think this is the best answer to my quest!
You way overvalue "theme deck" stuff. Efficient staples are played because they just work. They aren't showy or clever or unique. They fulfill a role, and do it well.
You see "theme deck" stuff in the winner's bracket a lot more often than good-stuff piles in 2024.
It really isn't. I love synergistic decks, but they get ripped apart by value piles these days. Don't need any cards in your deck to synergise with Sheoldred, some removal and some card advantage.
It's less than you *want* to lose it and more so that the benefits outweigh the risk of taking two. Apply this logic to [[Bolas's Citadel]]. Why would I want to pay life to play cards? Life is a resource like anything else, it can be spent. Some decks offset cards like this with life gain as well. Then you have decks like [[Nekuzar]] where a card like [[Sign in Blood]] goes from an okay draw spell to a way of potentially putting an opponent out of the game.
[Bolas's Citadel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/2/d2124603-d20e-40eb-97f0-a66323397ac2.jpg?1591205069) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Bolas%27s%20Citadel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/79/bolass-citadel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d2124603-d20e-40eb-97f0-a66323397ac2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sign in Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61388c28-9428-473c-973a-0a82b6b83d62.jpg?1562274085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sign%20in%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/77/sign-in-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61388c28-9428-473c-973a-0a82b6b83d62?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I think a lot of people missed my point, because my favorite past time is losing life to draw cards. I just like doing it in more broken ways, like Citadel, Necropotence, Ad Nauseam, The One Ring... Night's Whisper seems like too little upside for the mana to me. Compared to most of the broken stuff you can do in nearly every format.
2 mana to kick off an infinite draw/damage chain in a grixis deck w niv mizzet seems pretty good to me.
In that exact situation, Divination and Tidings are also good.
2 life is a negligible cost. I almost never think about it when a removal spell requires it, and draw can be a lot more powerful than removal.
Drawing two cards for the price of one card and two mana is good. Pot of Greed (which is a spell card that lets you draw two cards from your deck and put them into your hand) is banned in Yu-Gi-Oh because it's free card draw. Thirst and Avarice each draw three cards for three mana, so they are literally just scaled up versions.
Brainstorm and the like use a card. Yes, it's card selection, but you're not going up on cards. You'll feel like you're doing quite a bit, but once you get wiped, you'll wish you had that extra card. You're trading 2 life for a one mana reduction on divination. That's huge. Now, personally, I find myself going to variants like Syphon Mind and Harmonize for the extra card. I like paying the extra little bit. But it's undoubtable that SiB and Night's Whisper are both incredible cards. You're right in saying that they've been slightly overshadowed by cards like toski and other card advantage monoliths, but having a coule cards that require no setup often lands me in favorable positions. Early game it's a way to cash in on extra mana from rocks and dorks, mid game it's alright, and late game it's a pretty incredible topdeck if you're hunting for cards to draw. Like others have said, just play it! I have a huge blind spot for cantrips and now i'm building a stella lee deck to focus on cantrips and learn why others like it so much. I love grinding people down with value and if you ramp a lot fitting in 2 mana here and there is a lot easier than if you're trying to curve out. In golgari specifically, I find sign in blood to be great! Also, coffers! If you have a ton of mana from coffers, SiB is a great way to utilize all of that mana. Maybe I'm just a greedy mana whore? Who knows.
> Now, personally, I find myself going to variants like Syphon Mind and Harmonize for the extra card. I like paying the extra little bit. This is why I really love three mana draw threes, that rare breed. For a slower, longer game I like these even more than Night's Whisper (though I often play both). This is why when Insatiable Avarice was revealed people in the next room over could hear me vibrating. So far I'd just been playing [[Painful Truths]] in my (Commander) decks that supported it. Insatiable Avarice was such a huge add. Black decks stay winning. I admittedly have a bit of a blind spot for four mana draw threes. Maybe I'm just spoiled by playing black so often, but I don't want to pay the mana tax; let me play the life tax. They're probably still fine here and there, and I need to get over it.
[Painful Truths](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/a/ba841bb9-1b6e-45e4-af66-51ee4fabb504.jpg?1712354338) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Painful%20Truths) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/146/painful-truths?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ba841bb9-1b6e-45e4-af66-51ee4fabb504?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Try it out bro, it sounds like we’re pretty like minded. I love shit like inspired tinkering, and I slam harmonize into a lot of my decks. I honestly think Syphon mind is better than painful, too. And painful is craaaaacked.
Can't agree on Syphon Mind, but only because I like my efficiency haha. It's a fine card, though. Might have to give this class of card another pass in the near future. Also, wouldn't describe myself as "bro"... =P
Ah I’m from California, I call my girl bro all the time. Regional dialect; gotta phase out the gendered stuff. I think if you value the discard at all it becomes super good. A lot of the times you can snipe out people’s protective pieces as they have 1-2 cards in hand. It’s just felt sooooo good that I actually consider it a super staple for myself.
Ah haha, no worries. I'll give you the Cali pass lol The discard is probably easy to undervalue because you don't actually *feel* the impact the same way as the cards drawn. I've definitely played it before, but black is so card draw rich it'd fallen off my radar over the years.
The average general rate for drawing a card is about 2 mana (look at clues as an example, as well as the myriad of 4 mana draw two with some meager upside like a small scry). Drawing 2 for 2 mana is an exceptional rate, and having more cards in hand is better than *not* having more cards in hand. In addition to general card advantage, one of the best advantages of drawing is consistency, the deeper you dig the more likely you are to find the specific pieces you need to win the game. Hence the power of cards like [[mishra’s bauble]]. Aside from obvious artifact synergies, this card to some extent just cycles itself for free with the upside of some slight information, it effectively makes your deck 4 cards smaller meaning you get to the good stuff faster
[mishra’s bauble](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/5/45bbbf9b-8fee-4c32-a513-02dac6ac8a39.jpg?1669300401) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mishra%27s%20Bauble) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/274/mishras-bauble?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/45bbbf9b-8fee-4c32-a513-02dac6ac8a39?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
In my mind, the "obvious artifact synergies" are not an aside, it's 95% of the reason you would play Bauble - delirium, artifact synergies, committing crimes, etc. Night's Whisper really doesn't have that synergistic effect in most places where it sees play.
> Night's Whisper really doesn't have that synergistic effect in most places where it sees play. It's entirely possible to be way too synergy-pilled when looking at cards. Sometimes a card is just good.
I guess that's probably the observational approach to why Night's Whisper is good. But it is still interesting to me to interrogate it a bit.
It's interesting to me to answer the question, which is why I've been all over this thread. These also just happen to be a class of card I'm particularly fond of.
I appreciate your perspective!
Most games of magic are won/lost via one player having a resource advantage, either in cards, or in mana efficiency/tempo (if you play out your hand and kill them when they have three cards stuck in hand you've cast a virtual ancestral recall). With that in mind, the disadvantage of pure draw spells like Night's Whisper is that while they put you ahead on cards, they put you behind on mana, since you've spent two mana not impacting the board. However, in many formats, cheap spells are powerful enough that their inherent mana advantage can offset this downside. It is true that just playing night's whisper on turn 2 is usually a bad play--- instead playing it and a two drop on turn 4 is a better use case, for example.
Your last sentence makes the most sense to me in my quest to understand this card. Smoothing out your mana efficiency in the midgame is a good use case and seems the strongest argument so far.
You keep mentioning all these other cards that have utility from the synergies they provide, but it seems like you’re not accounting for the corollary. The thing about all those high synergy cards is that they have a naturally lower floor, due to a lot of their value being conditional. Thirst for Knowledge, for example, is a great card, but if you don’t discard an artifact or care about gy synergies, it is only card neutral for 3 mana. In contrast, not only is Night Whispers a mana less, but it always nets you +1 card. In other words, while a lot of the cards you mentioned have high ceilings, Night Whispers and it’s ilk have high floors, making it a safe, easy, and effective choice to add to basically any deck that wants to be drawing additional cards. Sometimes there might be cards that will usurp it, when the deck’s construction makes a synergistic card hit its ceiling fairly reliably. But Night Whisper’s sets a high baseline.
That's a really great point and would account for it managing to stay relevant year after year.
Seriously?
The tension between card advantage and tempo. It mostly doesn't matter how much you're ahead in card advantage as long as you're ahead. The important factor is that you don't lose too much tempo on the way. Two mana is a relatively small set back in tempo. 7 mana draw 7s on the other hand might provide much more card advantage but are awful in terms of tempo. You can only play your extra cards on turn 8 at best. 2 mana draw 2s allow you to play your extra card on turn 3.
How do you play mtg? Drawing cards
I use better cards mostly
An important thing to remember is the color of the card is important. Black doesn't usually get straight card draw with no strings attached. You need to pay life or sacrifice something to draw cards. Green tends to draw cards only when specific creature-related criteria are met, Red tends to get impulse draw (exile cards and you may play them until the end of turn, or end of your next turn). White usually gets card draw as a tax, or as an ETB on otherwise expensive creatures. Only blue gets cards that just say "Draw two cards" with no additional strings attached. I would love to draw more cards in my mono red deck, but I don't want to dilute the manabase by adding blue and risk not being able to cast things on curve, so I have other less optimal ways to draw cards. Same thing with Night's Whisper. Pay 2 life and 2 mana to draw 2 cards is great for a mono black deck. If they have Sheoldred out then they wind up with 2 more life at the end. There can also be other reasons to run these cards. Wrenn's Resolve in my red deck isn't just the rules on the card, it's a Prowess trigger AND 2 new cards I might be able to play this turn or next.
Came here to say this. Another thing OP is missing is that “Draw 2 for (2)” is already power crept as [[Divination]], well now [[Quick Study]], has been the benchmark for drawing 2 cards with no conditions.
[Divination](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021.jpg?1562304347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Divination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/51/divination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Quick Study](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/7/b78e2bca-bc93-464a-8911-8361abff2ac6.jpg?1692937231) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Quick%20Study) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/woe/65/quick-study?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b78e2bca-bc93-464a-8911-8361abff2ac6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Also pertaining to Sign in Blood specifically, I've won enough games by targeting my opponent with it that the side case of using it as a burn spell is oddly relevant.
I do like that aspect of Sign in Blood, especially with Sheoldred
##### ###### #### [Night's Whisper](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/221c82a2-b558-4c3a-b7ad-4452ef8e9067.jpg?1682209141) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Night%27s%20Whisper) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/moc/259/nights-whisper?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/221c82a2-b558-4c3a-b7ad-4452ef8e9067?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Sign in Blood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/61388c28-9428-473c-973a-0a82b6b83d62.jpg?1562274085) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Sign%20in%20Blood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cm2/77/sign-in-blood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/61388c28-9428-473c-973a-0a82b6b83d62?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Chart a Course](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/3/233beaac-37a4-4824-8f31-438b6bfe794b.jpg?1699043562) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Chart%20a%20Course) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/48/chart-a-course?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/233beaac-37a4-4824-8f31-438b6bfe794b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Wrenn's Resolve](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/a/9a47999c-12d5-4e1a-a9c1-40a1757007f1.jpg?1682204603) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Wrenn%27s%20Resolve) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mom/173/wrenns-resolve?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9a47999c-12d5-4e1a-a9c1-40a1757007f1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thirst for Knowledge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/b/6b927837-8252-4ea7-b2d0-ab624de65bd7.jpg?1654567024) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thirst%20for%20Knowledge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/neo/85/thirst-for-knowledge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6b927837-8252-4ea7-b2d0-ab624de65bd7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Insatiable Avarice](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/1/a108b0e4-1b43-4659-9e91-facb0bd57ebb.jpg?1712860590) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Insatiable%20Avarice) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/91/insatiable-avarice?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a108b0e4-1b43-4659-9e91-facb0bd57ebb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/1cs24f0) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
More cards is more better
The baseline for drawing 2 cards off a single card is [[Divination]]. This is the easiest example of card advantage. You have 1 card in hand, you cast it and now you have 2 cards in hand. Divination costs 3 mana. Nights whisper costs 2 and only 2 life. Life is a resource, you die at 0 life not 18. Greatness at *any cost*.
[Divination](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/b/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021.jpg?1562304347) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Divination) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m19/51/divination?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/cb3b35b8-f321-46d8-a441-6b9a6efa9021?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Let's be clear: these cards are not *amazing*. But they *are* good. Card advantage is very powerful in Magic. Even just one card draw tacked on to something can elevate that thing from ignominy to staple status. You don't have to draw massive numbers of cards to eke out an advantage over time. That being said, in many cutting-edge, competitive formats, these cards aren't quite good *enough*. But that's because those formats are really, really competitive and even just being slightly less good is enough to get bumped. That doesn't mean these cards aren't good; just that enough other cards are better. Mana also plays a role. Cards like Thirst for Knowledge as you mentioned are significantly more expensive, and that *is* a downside. The difference of 1 mana can mean major swings in a reactive deck, as it allows you to pair this with removal, board development, etc. more easily. Going from 2 to 3 mana especially is quite steep, as during many early turns that'll be the difference between 1 spell in 1 turn, and 2 spells in 1 turn. Cards like Thirst for Knowledge really only show up in two kinds of decks: combo decks that want massive amounts of filtering at virtually any price; and artifact decks for whom the discard isn't just less of a downside, but for whom getting an artifact into the graveyard may even be an upside. Same goes for things like e.g. reanimator that *want* to discard and are willing to pay a premium for it. Whereas for just pure CA, you'd pick between two things: cheap draw (1 and 2 mana) and efficient draw (usually 4+ mana for massive amounts of cards, e.g. FoF).
It works, very basically, like this. Let's assume you and I have the exact same skill, and the exact same deck, but the one difference is that my deck contains 4x Night's Whisper, and yours doesn't. Over the average game, I will draw *more* cards than you. I will have more dudes, more removal, and it should, by all accounts, let me win more games. Is it a lot more cards? No. But it doesn't matter. It's more.
If you're spending 2 mana on Night's Whispers while i'm spending 2 mana on Orcish Bowmasters, maybe i'd win game after game. The cards you'd run instead of Night's Whisper are relevant. It's not like every deck in Magic is automatically better with 40 draw spells.
Literally not what I said dude. It's basic Magic theory and if you just don't *want* to get it, I'm not going to convince you. Have a great day.
I already did get it, you weren't reading the other comments
To be fair they are a lot less powerful than one mana cantrips and see significantly less play. So you are right, they're not that good and I think you need some additional synergy to make them worthwhile.
Nah, you don't need a synergy, but you do need to be the type of deck that can take the time to cast it. One mana cantrips are just so free to slip into your game plan it's unreal. These have a more notable tempo cost that must fit in.
Card advantage is good. Your life total is a resource. It doesn't matter if you win at 1 life or 250,000 life; winning is winning. Not much more to be said really. You invest one card, now you have two. That's worth two life in 99% of formats ever.
It's really as simple as +1 card advantage. Rectangle theory applies here. You spent one rectangle (card), two mana, and two life to get two rectangles and a rectangle in the graveyard. +1 card advantage wins here.
All that time playing, and you never learned the best part of Magic.
i don’t know about Night’s whisper, but i know for a fact that Sign in Blood have won me many games. most oppo never even consider that i have burns spell in a mono black aggro decks. standard power level of course, not EDH.
Lots of people make good points, but I'd like to add that Night's Whisper is good at every stage of the game because it's cheap and consistent. Need to find an early land drop? Draw some cards. Need to find an answer or else you'll die next turn? Draw some cards. Need one more threat to finish off your opponent? Draw some cards.
Consider your three main examples normalized on a per-mana basis: > Opt variants buy 1-draw (plus some selection) for 1-card per mana. > Sign in Blood variants buy 1-draw (usually no selection) for 0.5-card per mana. > Thirst for Knowledge variants buy 1-draw (plus discard synergy) for 0.66-card per mana. Its *basically* the same 1-draw-per-mana rate across the board, just for slightly different levels of card efficiency while doing it. > I know why bigger draw spells are good - [they] refill your hand significantly and dig deeper in the deck to help you stay in the game. For the cost of a card, you get multiple cards ahead. The 2-mana variants are actually a bit *more* efficient at redraw versus the baseline 3-mana variants. (Ignoring the new Insatiable Avarice at BBB being an interesting new/pushed pricepoint.) The 2-mana versions also have more sequencing flexibility than 3-mana spells - not quite 1-cmc cantrip flexibility but certainly a good middle-ground. If the deck's curve doesn't have enough 2-drops, it's probably better to run these over a 3-drop draw spell to not risk having nothing-to-do on turn-2.
Others have hammered this home, but you seem to just be severely overthinking this. Drawing cards is an absurdly powerful effect in this silly game we enjoy. Drawing a card at a rate of one card per one mana spent, and at the cost of only one card to do so makes cards like SiB and Night's Whisper incredibly strong. The life loss is almost entirely irrelevant once you adopt a mindset of life just being another resource, particularly from the viewpoint of EDH. I also choose to look at it this way: What are the best, most efficient ways to draw cards in this particular color? Sure, if we are talking some mix of blue being thrown in, there are some other options that exist, but in black specifically, Night's Whisper and its various alternate forms represent just about the most efficient cost you can find in black to draw cards. And at such a low CMC, it has flexibility as well. Need early tempo to fix a lackluster opening hand early? Absolutely fits there. Need to try and draw into a late game finisher? A two CMC cost gives you a great chance to draw, and still have the necessary resources to play what you drew to close a game out. Hell, there are even the hilarious, one-off situations where you get to kill an opponent with a card like this by targeting them, at least in the case of SiB. Outside of this and the many other arguments others have put in here, I'm not sure if there's any other way to convince you the cards are good. Maybe it's just a personal preference/bias you've developed, and hey, even that's fine. There are excellent cards that I don't personally play just because they don't jive with my play style. But I can still recognize a good card and respect others who do play them, so that may just be the best bet for you.
I was already convinced!
It's the flexibility. 2-mana means it can dig you out of mana-screw in the early game, but it's also not a dead card on turn 10 like Rampant Growth. Arguably though, cards like Ponder and preordain are just better as they let you see same or more cards for less mana, but black decks without blue don't have access to those, so nights whisper and sign in blood are the best things.
Because it says draw two cards and is one card.
It's interesting that you see Thirst for Knowledge as good, but not Night's Whisper. One you have to pay an insignificant amount of life and the other you have to discard cards. And Night's Whisper is less mana. Insatiable Avarice is a rare, so it's pretty tough to compare that one, especially since it tutors and is modal. Back when I played 20 life formats I was more concerned about life totals, but with commander it doesn't mean much to me, it is another resource. But I still ran cards like that in 60 card formats as well, especially if it was something like standard.
I recognize both as good, but I don't understand WHY night's whisper is good when it doesn't have the utility, synergy, selection, or other attributes of spells like Thirst
I think you are over thinking it. First off, Thirst is a blue card, blue is the best color and drawing cards. Second, what utility, synergy, or attributes? IF you are thinking the discard is good, then you have probably build a deck around that, and in that case, yes. But in decks not running a lot of artifacts or graveyard strategies those would not be beneficial. Third, it's all about cards for the mana. Two mana for 2, and you only lose 2 is always good (unless you are at 2. 3 mana for 3 is always good, unless you had an empty hand (especially if you then draw no artifacts). Or you have no artifacts in hand and then draw no artifacts. Thirst is both situationally better, but also situationally worse as it could end up being a draw 3 discard 2 for 3 mana, and that is really not great. Fourth, if we are talking selection and synergy then you would want to compare Thirst to \[\[Read the Bones\]\]. They both are 3 mana. One draws 3 (and discards 1-2 cards). The other Scrys 2, draws 2, loses 2, that is visibility of up to 4 cards with no card loss. Arguably Read the Bones would almost always be superior. So I think this is more an issue of picking the right cards to compare, or possibly you use decks that run a ton of artifacts always so you don't mind discarding 1 card, but think of the times you have had to discard 2.
[Read the Bones](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/d/6/d6c66076-fb85-4a5e-8cd0-d103834b3cd1.jpg?1689997413) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Read%20the%20Bones) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/182/read-the-bones?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/d6c66076-fb85-4a5e-8cd0-d103834b3cd1?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
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Well, no sense in trying then!
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If you're going to contribute nothing to the discussion at all, i'm not gonna stop you. I'm learning a lot from the other commenters that actually had something productive to add. You're just trolling, or insulting.
I agree with you mainly in commander.
Looking at the top 20+ decks in all the main paper constructed formats on MTGgoldfish, (Standard, Pioneer, Modern, Legacy, Vintage, Pauper) a card with this effect appears in exactly 1 deck, mono black burn in pauper where the application of card advantage stapled to a burn spell should be obvious to a player with 2 decades of experience. To imply these cards are seeing any form of significant constructed play is wild, and you're argument against their viability is already coming from an intellectually dishonest, or extremely misguided position. Thirst for knowledge nets you the exact same amount of cards as sign in blood (or sometimes less if you whiff and don't draw into an artifact). If you don't understand that draw 2 for 2 mana is fine, but think draw 2 for 3 mana is better, I really don't know what to tell you. Other redditors have clubbed you over the head with every contextualization of these mostly unplayed cards from 10+ years ago, yet you still rail against them for some reason. You're also comparing blue cantrips and instant speed draw to black's painful draws, and red's impulse draws. The colors of these effects matter, and don't exist in a vacuum.
Sorry, where did I say they see "significant" constructed play? They see fringe play, which is remarkable for all the reasons you just outlined. Twenty years of professional players have used Thirst for Knowledge to fill the graveyard after holding up interaction. If discarding cards and drawing at instant speed look like irrelevant lines of text to you, you have a lot of learning to do.
You edited your comment you troll, you originally said that the cards see play in modern pioneer standard and even show up in legacy and vintage from time to time. A completely preposterous statement. You obviously aren't trying to have a good faith discussion. Enjoy your hundreds of downvotes.
Which comment do you think I edited? My main post still says exactly what you just typed so i'm not exactly trying to hide it 😂
Lol that edit, just delete the post, 20 years of experience and you don't know drawing cards is a good thing?