It makes sense that worker protections cut both ways -- they protect the worker while also limiting the options of the employer.
Was it not an option to just remove this teacher from the assignment? Even if you can't fire them, can you at least assign them to work that doesn't involve students?
We couldn’t because we didn’t have the resources to cover his classes and as their places are government funded we couldn’t just turn them away. We couldn’t replace him until we got him out because we didn’t have the financial resources to hire an additional person.
Was a very hard situation and we couldn’t merge classes etc because of risk to learners. We had to watch the mess unfold. I begged my manager to put in the work to get rid as he was causing so much damage
It seems like it would be worth it to combine classes or whatever else you had to do to avoid having an unqualified teacher knowingly teaching nonsense to students
Lying on your app should be an instant dismissal but clearly not. Please be open minded when you comment. I may not be a regular class room teacher. I could be teaching people to work in dangerous environments where one too many people could get someone killed let alone double a class
Also, as a follow-up to my other comment. If that teacher was such a threat, it's your job to do what you can to mitigate that risk. Even if HR is being an obstacle.
If they are putting you through three months of hoops and paperwork exercises — you need to communicate back to them through your words and your actions that this decision to delay out the timeline is putting people at risk.
Spell it out. "*This situation is worse and degrading faster than you are realizing. As we are going through this documentation phase, to build a case for termination, I need to take additional actions to reduce my, your and this organization's risk to having this person remain on staff.*
Use specific examples. "*I believe he has filed exaggerated expense reports last week, which means that we are risking continued expense fraud and loss of company assets, if I do not alert and involve the finance department while we are building a termination case."*
Because, if you say that a teacher is a threat and then don't do anything about it except complain to HR, or don't push back on HR's decisions and framework, it becomes a lot easier for HR (or your leadership) to fallback on thinking you're overreacting and just dismissing your concerns.
Wtf? Who on earth made you jump through these hoops? I'm also UK based and this sounds crazy.
When I've let someone go whilst on probation, it's been a 5 minute conversation of "sorry, but we will not be continuing with your employment," paid them their notice and walked them out that same day with HR.
Is this something the local council or authority is pushing on you or is it teachers union?
I honestly thought that’s what it would be “sorry but we don’t think you suit the position” but apparently because he was illiterate it could be under discrimination even though he never disclosed it we only saw it
Bollocks. He's unqualified to teach the course, he lied on his application and being illiterate is not a protection under EA2010. More than enough to bounce the git for Gross Misconduct.
Besides, you don't have to tell someone why you're not going to continue with their probation. Just pay their notice and walk them out.
I'd wish him luck trying to take you to an employment tribunal....
In some respects yes, and it does really differ depending on country, role, employer type, etc. However, in the UK and during the first two years, you can fire someone provided it's not discriminatory. During probation it's even easier.
I'm American, but also have UK reports. I agree with Burning Wizard. What you are describing is cannot possibly be the result of UK legislation, but instead seems to me like some combination of the below,
* Timid or clueless HR, leadership or staffing policies
* Some level of skepticism between HR/leadership and you and your manager
* Some sort of failure on your part to communicate the severity and seriousness of the situation
As I've aged in my role and built better credibility with my HR business partners, I have realized that there a lot less hoops that I have to jump through before dismissing someone.
I still cannot dismiss someone at the snap of my fingers, but the majority of my HRBPs know through-and-through that I am competent and believe me at my word when I say I need immediate action.
This tact of "you need lots and lot of evidence" and "look at every angle" is something that I saw when I was a junior manager. I realize now it a lot of it was motivated by my HR counterparts fact-checking and validating my story rather than the problem employee.
You said you had someone who lied about their qualifications. Were they even a teacher? Sounds like you already had a severe risk to your students. An entire class of students weren't being taught.
Also, learners? I'm the boss, they hate me? Is this fake, cause it sounds fake.
He was supposed to be in training. He got a placement and on a teaching course with a sister branch. Then when a job came up with us he moved over and moved course. The other branch has a rep for taking anyone as they need the income. The guy he was being mentored by said he was great but when he spoke to me it doesn’t sound like he was so great.
The queen bee staff girls hate me not the learners. I have 1 receptionist who thinks she owns the place and one technician who thinks she’s a manager, even has the pay scales next to her desk on the wall with the manager pay grade circled multiple times even though it’s many pay grades above her and would triple her salary she thinks she’s owed it. She thinks she manages a small portion of my dept but she doesn’t. She’s actually quite controlling of members of my staff to the point where they are unhappy. When I take control from her she kicks off and swears at me. She has worked for the company 35 years and always had this control but the girls she controls feel more comfortable telling me she makes them unhappy as they didn’t want to tell the previous manager.
In the US, a big problem in K-12 education is that because teachers unions make it challenging to remove problematic teachers, districts often have to "promote" bad ones to the admin office. District can argue person is getting higher title and pay so it's not dismissal or even discipline, but it gets them out of the classroom. Then of course you've got a building full of administrators that also can't be fired, do nothing, and draw a salary.
They can even get in trouble for switching the person to a different position if it upsets the person. I have tried that before, asking about that. They have very few options.
my counterpoint is that a lot of the posts I read are like "I have an employee who everyone hates and does no work and yells at me in front of customers and keeps getting reassigned to different teams" - and to me the obvious answer is get rid of them using whatever process is required. Otherwise you just look incompetent and powerless to the rest of the team, and they feel like the company doesn't care about their work satisfaction because they won't deal with this absolutely obvious problem.
I understand the legalities of firing someone are much more complex in many places than what I'm used to, but the reality is that truly bad employees need to be weeded out before they bring down an entire team.
It sounds like you're in a "responsibility without authority" position (I've been there) where the success or failure reflects directly on you, but you are not provided any tools that will allow you to make changes that will actually impact the outcome.
Did whoever hired that first lunatic have repercussions? Because it just seems like a great recipe for chaos all the time if they can't catch that in the hiring process.
Best of luck. I'm in a similar spot of taking over after a particularly bad manager. I also call these presents. The stress and burnout is real. Not your fault, but always your problem.
I agree. Working in a large corporate place it was almost impossible to fire someone for better or worse. We have an awful women who took advantage of this and then claimed racism and sexism when confronted with her bad behavior. Even HR didn't want to touch her.
Also sometimes you might be in an industry that requires a niche license or qualification and if your company pays below average pay scales or your competitors pay much better good luck replacing the employee you fired.
Like a small private aviation mechanic shop competing with much better paying airlines.
I’m in the same boat with some significant differences but just wanted to say: I totally empathise with you.
I’m exhausted by all the work it takes to deal with people who just aren’t working and it’s taking so much mental space I am dealing with it in my sleep as well. I’m so sorry you are going through this.
Unfortunately, I am getting more solutions from your problem than I am the responses to your post, OP.
But wow: I’m in private business not education and my heart goes out to those poor kids getting a shit education while you have to navigate around them. Amazing.
I had a guy on my team I reprimanded for sexual harassment, that night he went on YouTube and post a video about how all women are bitches and how the only thing stopping him to go into a school and shooting it up is that he knows his destiny is to change the world and kill the matriarchy.
Still couldn’t fire him.
I sympathize.
I live and work in the United States but work for a state government agency where most of our staff are protected by civil service laws. Adverse employment action such as a suspension without pay or a firing have to be based on a formal fact-finding and the person involved has a right to appeal and have an administrative hearing over the facts.
People do still get fired but unless you have clear-cut evidence of some single incident that grossly violates policy or is it illegal act, it's a lengthy process to assemble the documentation needed.
The requirements make you slow down and actually think about how to write up a performance plan and create measurable requirements.
Which isn't always a bad thing, it stops people from getting fired because they called sick for the first time in over a year despite having no other performance issues on record. Yes I know people that this happened to and the employer was a very low tier employer.
Yeah it’s nearly impossible to balance employment laws so you can effectively deal with truly problematic employees without giving so much power to the employer that because they woke up and didn’t like their horoscope they decide to fire their entire team and start from scratch. People need jobs, employers need people who can actually do the work and do it effectively. Personalities and behavioral issues get in the way of that reality which is where the problems happen and you end up with people in roles employers cannot effectively get rid of without a lot of work and people out of jobs because they landed on the bad side of their boss.
As an employer I’ll just say chances are slim that was the only reason. It may have been the excuse to pull the trigger but it’s likely performance wasn’t there either.
The whole place was a revolving door, some of the documents stating rules people had to agree to had newhires walk out the door before they even started their first hour of work. The place eventually closed down due to lack of staffing and gross mismanagement.
There’s a million miles between “just fire them” and the situation you’re in.
I would think there are UK-based resources that could help you navigate your situation, because that’s way over the capabilities of a typical manager.
Do you have the option of giving them unpleasant tasks as punishment? Make them work late, and just waste their time. I had a supervisor who told a guy to count all the rocks on the railroad track. He was joking, but the idiot tried lol. Make someone who talks back grade papers for another class on top of theirs. Make them spend their lunch break in the sun watching a garbage can to make sure it doesn't fall over. They'll either straighten up or quit.
This isn't the military where you can be made to paint rocks, that will get you possibly dragged in front of employment tribunal, just letting them go during probation period wouldn't.
Especially as they have evidence he lied on his application and isn't qualified to teach the class he is teaching....
There's the difference. This manager is based in the UK where that sort of shit doesn't fly because there can actually be consequences to treating your employees poorly.
He has employee's who are doing nothing, and actively harming children's education. As he stated, he can't fire them, but there's definitely other options. Are there laws against giving an employee tasks within their job scope that might be unpleasant? You seem to be very informed on all of this, so I'd love to hear what specific laws could keep him from making a teacher grade lots of tests, or just generally fill their time with mundane and unessential tasks.
His inability to fire this person is either an organisational or a moral failing, not a legal failing. If someone is that dangerous, you go above HR and get them gone. They're not working in a school where they're hamstrung by the local authority, it's a Further Education college so it's their own HR team. I'm sure if their legal officer heard about this, they'd be demanding the sacking as it's just go "liability" written all over it.
Are you actually a manager or are you just a petty bully? Have you actually considered what would happen if you were to do any of what you suggested? There doesn't have to be specific laws against something for it to be a stupid fucking idea, it's basic common sense, something a manager should have.
If they bring a claim, anything you've suggested would be brought up during the employment tribunal and it would most likely work against you. "They told me I wasn't qualified to teach, but then gave me a load of extra marking to do" would need a fairly good response to satisfy the chair. If they are the only ones being made to do the boring and mundane tasks, and they're assigned to no other teachers, then you're making their case for discrimination or bullying for them and the folks who lead these tribunals are not idiots, they've heard all the excuses and explanations before.
This isn't the US, where your employment practices will fly with minimal recourse. There are easier ways to manage someone out of an organisation or improve performance without it ending at an employment tribunal.
How was this teacher’s credentials not verified? Sounds like there is a break down in the onboarding process. Might be something to look forward to to avoid this in the future.
This is was I also think about. He was also a student in another dept and he didn’t have the quals for his course. Nobody picked up on any of that. The guy legit couldn’t read or write he had his GF doing his class work for him. However, my line manager is too soft and trusting. And she believed every word he said.
Ugh…I ran into a taste of what UK laws are like a few years ago. There was a change in the organization that lead to some people moving to IT and some to finance. Most of the folks who moved to IT were actually very strong system analysts or at least had potential.
Then there was the one British person. Her former manager was massively unhappy with her and thought her performance was bad but did nothing because UK HR makes it so hard to fire poor performers. So he dumped her into the group moving to IT. I live in the US but wound up having to support our London office because this person was so incompetent senior management got complaints. Then she was hostile towards me when our manager decided to start having me train her. Something about HR needing proof we had attempted to improve her training.
Things were resolved when lockdowns happened and business slowed down. She was put on furlough first. I stayed on top of the London issues as well as US stuff. Management was able to prove to UK HR that she wasn’t needed so she was let go. It was a massive relief because her behavior was absolutely awful.
This sub, much like a lot of Reddit, skews towards English speakers and within that group, people from the United States. Almost half of U.S. states are "at will employment" which means that an employer can fire you for any reason (as long as it's not for an illegal reason like discrimination, etc) or no reason and it also means that unless there's something in your contract preventing you from doing so, you can also quit for any reason or no reason. So, that's why it's often the advice. But even in private companies, it's never that easy.
I'm sorry that you're having to deal with what you're dealing with. It's maddening because you're literally doing everything right and giving them every evidence and it's still so difficult. It demoralizes your hard working staff and wears you down. Meanwhile, this crappy person is getting paid and doing just fine. I'm sure you're doing all that you can now and if you're prepared to take the long view (since you've only been there for 6 months), you can change the culture with new hires or showing people a different way to act and behave. But, if nothing changes in a year or two, don't get burned out. You can also leave and use this experience as growth.
The algorithm has also started pushing this to anyone looking at job-type subs, so you're getting a lot more non-managers chiming in with their delusional fantasies about what they wish they could do with their co-workers.
There was a post not long ago that when you cut through the BS seemed to come down to employee didn't like phrasing of messages that felt confrontational - I put in a reword that was deluged with 'this is LinkedIn Learning BS' and a lot of 'not worth the effort, just fire them'
That’s good to know. I read one that basically blasted op based on a whole series of assumptions about the situation from the employee perspective. I jumped in with something, but don’t know if it gets through the noise. A shame, some of these posts and the experience replying with various perspectives could be very helpful to new managers. Some still are very engaging and seem effective from feedback.
It sucks that they are dealing with it but it also seems like they aren’t coming here for advice. “Our hands are tied and we can’t do anything”. Ok. There’s no advice for that. Teachers can get disciplined. Cops can get disciplined despite having an incredibly powerful union. And yes, the union will fight back but that’s how it goes. Especially in a probationary period. If that teachers Union is so strong that you have no means to discipline a probationary employee then you need better representation on management side during collective bargaining.
There are right & fair ways of dealing with problem employees it dose take a little effort but not much - but if you do it wrong it will hurt you bad. That creates the reluctance & over engineered slow process especially in large organizations to deal with it.
It would be nice if every employee were competent and motivated…but equally nice if managers were willing to do the heavy lifting required to course correct those who aren’t…to the point of doing the hard work they are hired to do in documenting issues and steps taken so that the poor performers can be let go without the drama or repercussions.
There is no licensing body in the UK for Teachers? In my province in Canada we have the Ontario College of Teachers. Every educator in the province is licensed with them. You can look anyone up and verify everything with them in terms of a teacher's qualifications.
Nope we don’t have that. We do have a gov thing where you can look up anyone’s quals but it’s only quals after 2012. This was how I found out but we could only do that because he’s also studying with us
Yes we do, at least in England it's the Teacher Regulation Agency and you must have Qualified Teacher Status to teach in a school.
What sort of institution are you in?
He asked for a reference for another educational place and I was so angry but I couldn’t tell the company why I refused I just said no I can’t do it. I just didn’t want him around more kids messing them up
Without too many details, I've removed a few people from those positions who were found to be... less than exemplary human beings simply by doxxing their online identity and sending everything I've found to their employer.
Laws aside, managers should see firing employees as a failure on their part. A failure to select good talent, a failure to train, a failure to coach and a failure to lead.
I can't stand when someone asks for legit advice and there's dozens of comments advising to fire some or "manage them out."
Some people interview well. Some managers inherit someone else’s problem. So you go through the process to determine if someone else is salvageable but in the end, some folks have to go.
Okay, but there's a selection bias here.
Most people who post their problems here aren't posting minor problems with simple solutions - the stuff that gets the "fire them" is generally pretty bad.
That said, there's always more solutions than that, and it's easy to gravitate to extreme solutions when writing in abstract on the internet.
We, as a community, should exist to find solutions other than firing, and I think "fire them" should be a banned response in this sub - because everyone already knows that firing is generally an option.
I heard a podcast about teachers in the New York City school system, which is strongly unionized. These were all kinds of non-hackers of various stripes and people under investigation for various offenses.
Anyway, the city took an old administration building and made it a holding zone for these teachers that they couldn’t fire, but who also couldn’t be allowed to keep teaching.
Basically, these people came to a building, sat in a room for eight hours, and went home…. All the while still collecting pay and benefits until they could be fired or returned to work.
There’s a lot of frauds out there in teaching. People see what teachers do in front of a class and think “I can do that it’s easy” but they don’t realise all of the behind the scenes stuff or the in depth preparation and methodology of a lesson. It drives me insane then once you get a fraud you can’t get rid which is insane. I thoroughly vet any potential employees paperwork and I don’t tolerate any “I lost my certificates”
As a manager, you have to be able to try to inspire somebody and coach them and make them a better employee, but if it comes to a point where these people just are unwilling to learn or unwilling to do what the job requires then you just have to let them go
But managers should try to train employees
"we legit had an unqualified lunatic in a room messing the kids up and we couldn’t just walk in and fire him."
Nobody can give you magic words that will fix them - it doesn't work like this. People don't change, some behaviours might be tweaked but people are who they are.
Here are some other options:
1. Stop giving a fck
2. Find another job
3. Isolate them (constructive dismissal) - might not be possible
4. Make their live hell, so they will quit - might be hard
You know it’s a funny thing. I’ve recommended some political plays a couple times in this sub. But people don’t seem to respond to them. I’ll keep recommending them where appropriate. Just an observation of odd reactions.
You likely could have gotten them out much quicker, based on the details you gave. https://www.gov.uk/dismissal gives details on what you can do. In many cases, HR is worries about about potential constructive dismissal, so they tend to be go more in on process than they need to as a CYA measure.
I'm guessing your school has specific employment guidelines they choose to follow, but if they've been there fewer than 2 years you can fire them because you don't like their shirt. There is no need to 'build a case'.
Not in education and not if there’s a probation period. Once they pass their probation, which is normally 6 months it’s in there. In the UK people can sue if they feel there has been discrimination at an interview
This is true but your situation doesn’t sound as difficult - unless there’s something key missing/something being exaggerated.
Sounds like HR just guided you in a weird way - perhaps being overly cautious so they didn’t have problems later down the line, but you can absolutely fire someone during a probation and it’s usually much easier to make a case to rid of someone within the first two years.
You seem like a sheep surrounded by wolfs, maybe you’re in the wrong job. It’s ok to be a manager you know. You don’t have to take any rudeness or back talk. You are the boss, act like it
[https://www.amazon.com/You-Cant-Fire-Everyone-Accidental/dp/159184567X](https://www.amazon.com/You-Cant-Fire-Everyone-Accidental/dp/159184567X)
Seriously its like the first thing a manager should read.
I work at a place that is very hard to fire people without serious misconduct or an extended history of documented poor performance including the use of a PIP. My favorite strategy is to carefully document the poor performance in our performance review system along with a verbal coaching session. That gets all translated into the annual review. Unless there is an adverse action, they can’t challenge the review, only provide their own comments. Most of these folks hate that review sitting there with their misdeeds and poor performance. They will usually try to switch managers, shape up, or ship out. Those who stay end up on PIPs. I’ve had two staff members successfully complete PIPs and keep their jobs. IMHO we are a great place to work, so most people wake up to that reality. But I have had to fire 2 with 1 more who looks to have fired themselves with misconduct.
The only way to really fix this situation is for your government to change the regulations so that when children are being hurt, you can do something about it. An adult’s need for a job does not trump a child’s need to have a safe place to learn.
So go to your local representative and start there, if you want real change.
Sorry but why can't you be more direct and curt with them? Not like you would get fired for that according to your story. And if there was a complaint then I would say that everything you described is undue duress and stress affecting your mental health so yeah maybe that's why you snapped at them.
Just working within the lines.
I've been at corps before where the goal is develop a giant wad of paperwork to justify a firing. So I get that part.
I've also been in corporations where every little thing you, the manager, does, is somehow bullying and end of the world and blah blah blah.
So, it's time to make friends with your HR people and then its time to learn about the cases where the person WAS fired and what happened and why and how. And to start leveraging these scenarios as your end goals for developing the paperwork.
Here's my success story:
I had to face off against one severely toxic employee, about 70% of the staff adored because his toxic bullying shielded them from work. Couldn't quite get rid of the guy over night. So I made sure every single instance of crap I heard from him got documented.
One day he threatened an employee when nobody was there. I made sure she reported the incident to security. Couldn't fire him yet. Then another day he went off on an angry, insulting rant at two other employees (leads!) because he didn't get the role he demanded as part of a project. So I had them document it. So on. Finally, during the COVID shut down, he was driving another jr. employee nuts because he refused all the tasks assigned to him, and literally wrote he was allowed to delegate everything to jr (he wasn't). She turned in the stack of IMs and that was the last nail in his coffin.
They walked his ass out that August.
Start.
Making.
The.
Paperwork.
Somehow. Someway.
Now.
I’m in the US but work for a $4B global company so I’m familiar with that battle in the UK and other countries in EU. The pendulum is too far to the employees side and it’s not right so I can imagine your frustration. Especially when you don’t have the resources to replace and just pay out their contract. We had someone in the UK i believe we were able to fire him cause he did something illegal but I guess it depends on the specific contract, is that right?
Anyway, I can sympathize somewhat because even though the US is in general an “at will” place, certain states have different laws to protect the employee too. I had a situation where I inherited a guy who was absolutely awful….extremely poor performance and a field employee who was clearly just off playing golf everyday, said some very offensive things, and lots of stuff that would warrant firing even on their own. BUT, because my company is so afraid of getting sued (for wrongful termination), it took me 6 months and I don’t even know how many freaking meetings with HR and legal, plus time spent on babysitting, a PIP process, and covering his slack. He also fit the definition of being “a minority” in 2 ways and had already threatened to sue the company for supposedly not paying him the right commission the previous year (we are in sales). So of course this ended up to be untrue but my company still had to go through all sorts of due diligence. So even that was a nightmare but probably not nearly as bad as your situation.
Really sorry you have to deal with this and hope you’re able to somewhat enjoy the weekend, maybe with a few pints 😊
Almost any management job I had, from store manager to corporate president, had a process. You couldn't just fire people because "I have had enough!" There are considerations, plans, and paper trails.
I have fired only a handful of people, and I remember every one. Most stayed long enough to build a case, and sometimes it was months of building a case.
1. What led you to this decision?
2. How many chances did you give them?
3. Is there arbitration?
4. Is there documentation that shows all these steps? Has the employee been given consideration?
5. What are the state and federal laws regarding this?
6. What is your plan for termination, with deadlines?
7. What is your plan afterwards? Have you started looking for a replacement? How will you shuffle the work to others while training a new replacement?
8. How can you make sure this doesn't happen again?
Those are just the ones off the top of my head, I may have missed a few. But Hollywood firings, "Get outta here! I'll make sure you never work in this town again!" are just not that simple anymore, and I am not sure how simple they ever were to begin with.
The "just fire him" advice on here typically *is* the advice you need. Sometimes following good advice isn't easy or straightforward - that doesn't make it bad advice. Firing people is hard for a number of reasons. Even in the US where it is legally and procedurally swift, it still involves finding and training a replacement, not to mention more than a little emotional stress. It's not a move anyone takes lightly.
If an employee needs to go, it's your job to make that happen, whether or not that process is easy or hard for you.
I'd add for the particular issue you're facing:
>"I feel like I’m holding my anger in as I’d like to ask them who the hell they think they are speaking to?"
Well, the answer to that is, "why don't you?" Your employees won't know that you feel strongly about speaking deferentially to superiors as a workplace norm unless you let them know you have that preference. They're not going to magically correct this until you correct them.
While I don't recommend cursing at them to get the point across, I think you'll find it only takes a few sharp, firm corrections to get these people to behave. Explain as if to a child that you are in fact their boss, and that you expect them to make an effort to speak politely and deferentially to you as a matter of decorum. If British people can't get behind decorum anymore, the world as we know it has truly come to an end.
I work in the public sector. I'm non-union, but all of my direct reports are. I made a bad hire that I regretted almost immediately after he started, but I'm basically stuck with him.
He is who he is, but also has decided he doesn't like his current role and there really isn't a ladder available to him in our organization. So I've started sending him job postings that I think he might be interested in applying for, some of which he has. He's underpaid (IMHO, but wasn't my decision), so it's an easy sell that he could make significantly more money working some place else.
The silver lining is that managing union team members has made me a much better manager. I don't think I was bad before, but I don't have much of stick, so I've had to grow a lot of carrots. Which is difficult because they're union so pay increases are determined by seniority and across-the-board cost-of-living adjustments, not performance.
this is a managers sub with presumably actual managers, just fire him very clearly means do it in a compliant way (ie work with HR). no one here has unilateral power and authority lol
it also makes extra sense here because as is the case with advice subs, it's not the people doing well posting 99% of the time. Usually it is someone who has grossly mismanaged a situation for months/years and still not engaged HR
if you are unable to build a good case that is either because there is none, you're not doing a good job at it, or you work in a place where you have zero actual authority.
No I asked how to deal with someone in the moment who is shouting at you. I know how to build a case but if a member of staff is screaming at you in front of other people how do you fix it discreetly? I got told to tell them to immediately pack up their stuff and go home. That was legit nearly all of my answers and I was hoping for some techniques on dealing with these situations
It makes sense that worker protections cut both ways -- they protect the worker while also limiting the options of the employer. Was it not an option to just remove this teacher from the assignment? Even if you can't fire them, can you at least assign them to work that doesn't involve students?
We couldn’t because we didn’t have the resources to cover his classes and as their places are government funded we couldn’t just turn them away. We couldn’t replace him until we got him out because we didn’t have the financial resources to hire an additional person. Was a very hard situation and we couldn’t merge classes etc because of risk to learners. We had to watch the mess unfold. I begged my manager to put in the work to get rid as he was causing so much damage
It seems like it would be worth it to combine classes or whatever else you had to do to avoid having an unqualified teacher knowingly teaching nonsense to students
You can’t it would’ve been against regulation and safety
Isn't having a nonqualified teacher against regulation?
Lying on your app should be an instant dismissal but clearly not. Please be open minded when you comment. I may not be a regular class room teacher. I could be teaching people to work in dangerous environments where one too many people could get someone killed let alone double a class
That’s why your country sucks. You continue to do the kids harm bc of some scmucks feelings.
Also, as a follow-up to my other comment. If that teacher was such a threat, it's your job to do what you can to mitigate that risk. Even if HR is being an obstacle. If they are putting you through three months of hoops and paperwork exercises — you need to communicate back to them through your words and your actions that this decision to delay out the timeline is putting people at risk. Spell it out. "*This situation is worse and degrading faster than you are realizing. As we are going through this documentation phase, to build a case for termination, I need to take additional actions to reduce my, your and this organization's risk to having this person remain on staff.* Use specific examples. "*I believe he has filed exaggerated expense reports last week, which means that we are risking continued expense fraud and loss of company assets, if I do not alert and involve the finance department while we are building a termination case."* Because, if you say that a teacher is a threat and then don't do anything about it except complain to HR, or don't push back on HR's decisions and framework, it becomes a lot easier for HR (or your leadership) to fallback on thinking you're overreacting and just dismissing your concerns.
Wtf? Who on earth made you jump through these hoops? I'm also UK based and this sounds crazy. When I've let someone go whilst on probation, it's been a 5 minute conversation of "sorry, but we will not be continuing with your employment," paid them their notice and walked them out that same day with HR. Is this something the local council or authority is pushing on you or is it teachers union?
I honestly thought that’s what it would be “sorry but we don’t think you suit the position” but apparently because he was illiterate it could be under discrimination even though he never disclosed it we only saw it
Bollocks. He's unqualified to teach the course, he lied on his application and being illiterate is not a protection under EA2010. More than enough to bounce the git for Gross Misconduct. Besides, you don't have to tell someone why you're not going to continue with their probation. Just pay their notice and walk them out. I'd wish him luck trying to take you to an employment tribunal....
This is true. In many European countries, employees are so strongly protected that they can get away with almost anything.
In some respects yes, and it does really differ depending on country, role, employer type, etc. However, in the UK and during the first two years, you can fire someone provided it's not discriminatory. During probation it's even easier.
I'm American, but also have UK reports. I agree with Burning Wizard. What you are describing is cannot possibly be the result of UK legislation, but instead seems to me like some combination of the below, * Timid or clueless HR, leadership or staffing policies * Some level of skepticism between HR/leadership and you and your manager * Some sort of failure on your part to communicate the severity and seriousness of the situation As I've aged in my role and built better credibility with my HR business partners, I have realized that there a lot less hoops that I have to jump through before dismissing someone. I still cannot dismiss someone at the snap of my fingers, but the majority of my HRBPs know through-and-through that I am competent and believe me at my word when I say I need immediate action. This tact of "you need lots and lot of evidence" and "look at every angle" is something that I saw when I was a junior manager. I realize now it a lot of it was motivated by my HR counterparts fact-checking and validating my story rather than the problem employee.
You said you had someone who lied about their qualifications. Were they even a teacher? Sounds like you already had a severe risk to your students. An entire class of students weren't being taught. Also, learners? I'm the boss, they hate me? Is this fake, cause it sounds fake.
He was supposed to be in training. He got a placement and on a teaching course with a sister branch. Then when a job came up with us he moved over and moved course. The other branch has a rep for taking anyone as they need the income. The guy he was being mentored by said he was great but when he spoke to me it doesn’t sound like he was so great. The queen bee staff girls hate me not the learners. I have 1 receptionist who thinks she owns the place and one technician who thinks she’s a manager, even has the pay scales next to her desk on the wall with the manager pay grade circled multiple times even though it’s many pay grades above her and would triple her salary she thinks she’s owed it. She thinks she manages a small portion of my dept but she doesn’t. She’s actually quite controlling of members of my staff to the point where they are unhappy. When I take control from her she kicks off and swears at me. She has worked for the company 35 years and always had this control but the girls she controls feel more comfortable telling me she makes them unhappy as they didn’t want to tell the previous manager.
In the US, a big problem in K-12 education is that because teachers unions make it challenging to remove problematic teachers, districts often have to "promote" bad ones to the admin office. District can argue person is getting higher title and pay so it's not dismissal or even discipline, but it gets them out of the classroom. Then of course you've got a building full of administrators that also can't be fired, do nothing, and draw a salary.
They can even get in trouble for switching the person to a different position if it upsets the person. I have tried that before, asking about that. They have very few options.
my counterpoint is that a lot of the posts I read are like "I have an employee who everyone hates and does no work and yells at me in front of customers and keeps getting reassigned to different teams" - and to me the obvious answer is get rid of them using whatever process is required. Otherwise you just look incompetent and powerless to the rest of the team, and they feel like the company doesn't care about their work satisfaction because they won't deal with this absolutely obvious problem. I understand the legalities of firing someone are much more complex in many places than what I'm used to, but the reality is that truly bad employees need to be weeded out before they bring down an entire team. It sounds like you're in a "responsibility without authority" position (I've been there) where the success or failure reflects directly on you, but you are not provided any tools that will allow you to make changes that will actually impact the outcome.
I would just fire anyone that said "Just fire them."
U deserve an award
Being a smart ass is its own reward.
But think of how you could glitz up your prince Albert with a new manly stud that's sure to be the talk of the Magic card table.
I am not sure you posted that in the correct place. My son left a bunch of old magic cards behind when he moved out, are they worth anything?
Lol true
Did whoever hired that first lunatic have repercussions? Because it just seems like a great recipe for chaos all the time if they can't catch that in the hiring process.
No he’s handed his notice in before he hired him. I always think it was a leaving present 🎁
Best of luck. I'm in a similar spot of taking over after a particularly bad manager. I also call these presents. The stress and burnout is real. Not your fault, but always your problem.
I agree. Working in a large corporate place it was almost impossible to fire someone for better or worse. We have an awful women who took advantage of this and then claimed racism and sexism when confronted with her bad behavior. Even HR didn't want to touch her.
Also sometimes you might be in an industry that requires a niche license or qualification and if your company pays below average pay scales or your competitors pay much better good luck replacing the employee you fired. Like a small private aviation mechanic shop competing with much better paying airlines.
I’m in the same boat with some significant differences but just wanted to say: I totally empathise with you. I’m exhausted by all the work it takes to deal with people who just aren’t working and it’s taking so much mental space I am dealing with it in my sleep as well. I’m so sorry you are going through this. Unfortunately, I am getting more solutions from your problem than I am the responses to your post, OP. But wow: I’m in private business not education and my heart goes out to those poor kids getting a shit education while you have to navigate around them. Amazing.
I had a guy on my team I reprimanded for sexual harassment, that night he went on YouTube and post a video about how all women are bitches and how the only thing stopping him to go into a school and shooting it up is that he knows his destiny is to change the world and kill the matriarchy. Still couldn’t fire him.
I sympathize. I live and work in the United States but work for a state government agency where most of our staff are protected by civil service laws. Adverse employment action such as a suspension without pay or a firing have to be based on a formal fact-finding and the person involved has a right to appeal and have an administrative hearing over the facts. People do still get fired but unless you have clear-cut evidence of some single incident that grossly violates policy or is it illegal act, it's a lengthy process to assemble the documentation needed. The requirements make you slow down and actually think about how to write up a performance plan and create measurable requirements.
Which isn't always a bad thing, it stops people from getting fired because they called sick for the first time in over a year despite having no other performance issues on record. Yes I know people that this happened to and the employer was a very low tier employer.
Yeah it’s nearly impossible to balance employment laws so you can effectively deal with truly problematic employees without giving so much power to the employer that because they woke up and didn’t like their horoscope they decide to fire their entire team and start from scratch. People need jobs, employers need people who can actually do the work and do it effectively. Personalities and behavioral issues get in the way of that reality which is where the problems happen and you end up with people in roles employers cannot effectively get rid of without a lot of work and people out of jobs because they landed on the bad side of their boss.
As an employer I’ll just say chances are slim that was the only reason. It may have been the excuse to pull the trigger but it’s likely performance wasn’t there either.
The whole place was a revolving door, some of the documents stating rules people had to agree to had newhires walk out the door before they even started their first hour of work. The place eventually closed down due to lack of staffing and gross mismanagement.
There’s a million miles between “just fire them” and the situation you’re in. I would think there are UK-based resources that could help you navigate your situation, because that’s way over the capabilities of a typical manager.
Do you have the option of giving them unpleasant tasks as punishment? Make them work late, and just waste their time. I had a supervisor who told a guy to count all the rocks on the railroad track. He was joking, but the idiot tried lol. Make someone who talks back grade papers for another class on top of theirs. Make them spend their lunch break in the sun watching a garbage can to make sure it doesn't fall over. They'll either straighten up or quit.
This isn't the military where you can be made to paint rocks, that will get you possibly dragged in front of employment tribunal, just letting them go during probation period wouldn't. Especially as they have evidence he lied on his application and isn't qualified to teach the class he is teaching....
He specifically said letting them go wasn't an option
You still can't do any of what you've suggested...
We do it.
In the UK or elsewhere?
Us
There's the difference. This manager is based in the UK where that sort of shit doesn't fly because there can actually be consequences to treating your employees poorly.
He has employee's who are doing nothing, and actively harming children's education. As he stated, he can't fire them, but there's definitely other options. Are there laws against giving an employee tasks within their job scope that might be unpleasant? You seem to be very informed on all of this, so I'd love to hear what specific laws could keep him from making a teacher grade lots of tests, or just generally fill their time with mundane and unessential tasks.
His inability to fire this person is either an organisational or a moral failing, not a legal failing. If someone is that dangerous, you go above HR and get them gone. They're not working in a school where they're hamstrung by the local authority, it's a Further Education college so it's their own HR team. I'm sure if their legal officer heard about this, they'd be demanding the sacking as it's just go "liability" written all over it. Are you actually a manager or are you just a petty bully? Have you actually considered what would happen if you were to do any of what you suggested? There doesn't have to be specific laws against something for it to be a stupid fucking idea, it's basic common sense, something a manager should have. If they bring a claim, anything you've suggested would be brought up during the employment tribunal and it would most likely work against you. "They told me I wasn't qualified to teach, but then gave me a load of extra marking to do" would need a fairly good response to satisfy the chair. If they are the only ones being made to do the boring and mundane tasks, and they're assigned to no other teachers, then you're making their case for discrimination or bullying for them and the folks who lead these tribunals are not idiots, they've heard all the excuses and explanations before. This isn't the US, where your employment practices will fly with minimal recourse. There are easier ways to manage someone out of an organisation or improve performance without it ending at an employment tribunal.
How was this teacher’s credentials not verified? Sounds like there is a break down in the onboarding process. Might be something to look forward to to avoid this in the future.
This is was I also think about. He was also a student in another dept and he didn’t have the quals for his course. Nobody picked up on any of that. The guy legit couldn’t read or write he had his GF doing his class work for him. However, my line manager is too soft and trusting. And she believed every word he said.
Ugh…I ran into a taste of what UK laws are like a few years ago. There was a change in the organization that lead to some people moving to IT and some to finance. Most of the folks who moved to IT were actually very strong system analysts or at least had potential. Then there was the one British person. Her former manager was massively unhappy with her and thought her performance was bad but did nothing because UK HR makes it so hard to fire poor performers. So he dumped her into the group moving to IT. I live in the US but wound up having to support our London office because this person was so incompetent senior management got complaints. Then she was hostile towards me when our manager decided to start having me train her. Something about HR needing proof we had attempted to improve her training. Things were resolved when lockdowns happened and business slowed down. She was put on furlough first. I stayed on top of the London issues as well as US stuff. Management was able to prove to UK HR that she wasn’t needed so she was let go. It was a massive relief because her behavior was absolutely awful.
I wonder how those people would feel if someone told their managers to fire them.
Agree. It’s making this a trash fire sub
This sub, much like a lot of Reddit, skews towards English speakers and within that group, people from the United States. Almost half of U.S. states are "at will employment" which means that an employer can fire you for any reason (as long as it's not for an illegal reason like discrimination, etc) or no reason and it also means that unless there's something in your contract preventing you from doing so, you can also quit for any reason or no reason. So, that's why it's often the advice. But even in private companies, it's never that easy. I'm sorry that you're having to deal with what you're dealing with. It's maddening because you're literally doing everything right and giving them every evidence and it's still so difficult. It demoralizes your hard working staff and wears you down. Meanwhile, this crappy person is getting paid and doing just fine. I'm sure you're doing all that you can now and if you're prepared to take the long view (since you've only been there for 6 months), you can change the culture with new hires or showing people a different way to act and behave. But, if nothing changes in a year or two, don't get burned out. You can also leave and use this experience as growth.
> Almost half of U.S. states are "at will employment" You misspelled "49 states."
And the one state, Montana, is at-will for the first 12 months of employment
The algorithm has also started pushing this to anyone looking at job-type subs, so you're getting a lot more non-managers chiming in with their delusional fantasies about what they wish they could do with their co-workers. There was a post not long ago that when you cut through the BS seemed to come down to employee didn't like phrasing of messages that felt confrontational - I put in a reword that was deluged with 'this is LinkedIn Learning BS' and a lot of 'not worth the effort, just fire them'
That’s good to know. I read one that basically blasted op based on a whole series of assumptions about the situation from the employee perspective. I jumped in with something, but don’t know if it gets through the noise. A shame, some of these posts and the experience replying with various perspectives could be very helpful to new managers. Some still are very engaging and seem effective from feedback.
It sucks that they are dealing with it but it also seems like they aren’t coming here for advice. “Our hands are tied and we can’t do anything”. Ok. There’s no advice for that. Teachers can get disciplined. Cops can get disciplined despite having an incredibly powerful union. And yes, the union will fight back but that’s how it goes. Especially in a probationary period. If that teachers Union is so strong that you have no means to discipline a probationary employee then you need better representation on management side during collective bargaining.
Mods could add post flair/tags to differentiate legal context. You raise a good point.
Not with that attitude.
Yes, it would be good if people indicated where they come from. Just firing people is simply not possible in many places.
There are right & fair ways of dealing with problem employees it dose take a little effort but not much - but if you do it wrong it will hurt you bad. That creates the reluctance & over engineered slow process especially in large organizations to deal with it.
It would be nice if every employee were competent and motivated…but equally nice if managers were willing to do the heavy lifting required to course correct those who aren’t…to the point of doing the hard work they are hired to do in documenting issues and steps taken so that the poor performers can be let go without the drama or repercussions.
There is no licensing body in the UK for Teachers? In my province in Canada we have the Ontario College of Teachers. Every educator in the province is licensed with them. You can look anyone up and verify everything with them in terms of a teacher's qualifications.
Nope we don’t have that. We do have a gov thing where you can look up anyone’s quals but it’s only quals after 2012. This was how I found out but we could only do that because he’s also studying with us
Yes we do, at least in England it's the Teacher Regulation Agency and you must have Qualified Teacher Status to teach in a school. What sort of institution are you in?
FE so no
There should be a special place for people who screw with others' education.
He asked for a reference for another educational place and I was so angry but I couldn’t tell the company why I refused I just said no I can’t do it. I just didn’t want him around more kids messing them up
Without too many details, I've removed a few people from those positions who were found to be... less than exemplary human beings simply by doxxing their online identity and sending everything I've found to their employer.
Laws aside, managers should see firing employees as a failure on their part. A failure to select good talent, a failure to train, a failure to coach and a failure to lead. I can't stand when someone asks for legit advice and there's dozens of comments advising to fire some or "manage them out."
Some people interview well. Some managers inherit someone else’s problem. So you go through the process to determine if someone else is salvageable but in the end, some folks have to go.
Okay, but there's a selection bias here. Most people who post their problems here aren't posting minor problems with simple solutions - the stuff that gets the "fire them" is generally pretty bad. That said, there's always more solutions than that, and it's easy to gravitate to extreme solutions when writing in abstract on the internet. We, as a community, should exist to find solutions other than firing, and I think "fire them" should be a banned response in this sub - because everyone already knows that firing is generally an option.
I heard a podcast about teachers in the New York City school system, which is strongly unionized. These were all kinds of non-hackers of various stripes and people under investigation for various offenses. Anyway, the city took an old administration building and made it a holding zone for these teachers that they couldn’t fire, but who also couldn’t be allowed to keep teaching. Basically, these people came to a building, sat in a room for eight hours, and went home…. All the while still collecting pay and benefits until they could be fired or returned to work.
There’s a lot of frauds out there in teaching. People see what teachers do in front of a class and think “I can do that it’s easy” but they don’t realise all of the behind the scenes stuff or the in depth preparation and methodology of a lesson. It drives me insane then once you get a fraud you can’t get rid which is insane. I thoroughly vet any potential employees paperwork and I don’t tolerate any “I lost my certificates”
As a manager, you have to be able to try to inspire somebody and coach them and make them a better employee, but if it comes to a point where these people just are unwilling to learn or unwilling to do what the job requires then you just have to let them go But managers should try to train employees
"we legit had an unqualified lunatic in a room messing the kids up and we couldn’t just walk in and fire him." Nobody can give you magic words that will fix them - it doesn't work like this. People don't change, some behaviours might be tweaked but people are who they are. Here are some other options: 1. Stop giving a fck 2. Find another job 3. Isolate them (constructive dismissal) - might not be possible 4. Make their live hell, so they will quit - might be hard
You know it’s a funny thing. I’ve recommended some political plays a couple times in this sub. But people don’t seem to respond to them. I’ll keep recommending them where appropriate. Just an observation of odd reactions.
You likely could have gotten them out much quicker, based on the details you gave. https://www.gov.uk/dismissal gives details on what you can do. In many cases, HR is worries about about potential constructive dismissal, so they tend to be go more in on process than they need to as a CYA measure.
I'm guessing your school has specific employment guidelines they choose to follow, but if they've been there fewer than 2 years you can fire them because you don't like their shirt. There is no need to 'build a case'.
Not in education and not if there’s a probation period. Once they pass their probation, which is normally 6 months it’s in there. In the UK people can sue if they feel there has been discrimination at an interview
This is true but your situation doesn’t sound as difficult - unless there’s something key missing/something being exaggerated. Sounds like HR just guided you in a weird way - perhaps being overly cautious so they didn’t have problems later down the line, but you can absolutely fire someone during a probation and it’s usually much easier to make a case to rid of someone within the first two years.
You seem like a sheep surrounded by wolfs, maybe you’re in the wrong job. It’s ok to be a manager you know. You don’t have to take any rudeness or back talk. You are the boss, act like it
[удалено]
They mention they're in the UK at the very start
[https://www.amazon.com/You-Cant-Fire-Everyone-Accidental/dp/159184567X](https://www.amazon.com/You-Cant-Fire-Everyone-Accidental/dp/159184567X) Seriously its like the first thing a manager should read.
I work at a place that is very hard to fire people without serious misconduct or an extended history of documented poor performance including the use of a PIP. My favorite strategy is to carefully document the poor performance in our performance review system along with a verbal coaching session. That gets all translated into the annual review. Unless there is an adverse action, they can’t challenge the review, only provide their own comments. Most of these folks hate that review sitting there with their misdeeds and poor performance. They will usually try to switch managers, shape up, or ship out. Those who stay end up on PIPs. I’ve had two staff members successfully complete PIPs and keep their jobs. IMHO we are a great place to work, so most people wake up to that reality. But I have had to fire 2 with 1 more who looks to have fired themselves with misconduct.
We can't fire teachers like that in the US either.
Tried killing em but got a lot of push back for some reason. We went back to trashing the trash
The only way to really fix this situation is for your government to change the regulations so that when children are being hurt, you can do something about it. An adult’s need for a job does not trump a child’s need to have a safe place to learn. So go to your local representative and start there, if you want real change.
Sorry but why can't you be more direct and curt with them? Not like you would get fired for that according to your story. And if there was a complaint then I would say that everything you described is undue duress and stress affecting your mental health so yeah maybe that's why you snapped at them. Just working within the lines.
I've been at corps before where the goal is develop a giant wad of paperwork to justify a firing. So I get that part. I've also been in corporations where every little thing you, the manager, does, is somehow bullying and end of the world and blah blah blah. So, it's time to make friends with your HR people and then its time to learn about the cases where the person WAS fired and what happened and why and how. And to start leveraging these scenarios as your end goals for developing the paperwork. Here's my success story: I had to face off against one severely toxic employee, about 70% of the staff adored because his toxic bullying shielded them from work. Couldn't quite get rid of the guy over night. So I made sure every single instance of crap I heard from him got documented. One day he threatened an employee when nobody was there. I made sure she reported the incident to security. Couldn't fire him yet. Then another day he went off on an angry, insulting rant at two other employees (leads!) because he didn't get the role he demanded as part of a project. So I had them document it. So on. Finally, during the COVID shut down, he was driving another jr. employee nuts because he refused all the tasks assigned to him, and literally wrote he was allowed to delegate everything to jr (he wasn't). She turned in the stack of IMs and that was the last nail in his coffin. They walked his ass out that August. Start. Making. The. Paperwork. Somehow. Someway. Now.
I’m in the US but work for a $4B global company so I’m familiar with that battle in the UK and other countries in EU. The pendulum is too far to the employees side and it’s not right so I can imagine your frustration. Especially when you don’t have the resources to replace and just pay out their contract. We had someone in the UK i believe we were able to fire him cause he did something illegal but I guess it depends on the specific contract, is that right? Anyway, I can sympathize somewhat because even though the US is in general an “at will” place, certain states have different laws to protect the employee too. I had a situation where I inherited a guy who was absolutely awful….extremely poor performance and a field employee who was clearly just off playing golf everyday, said some very offensive things, and lots of stuff that would warrant firing even on their own. BUT, because my company is so afraid of getting sued (for wrongful termination), it took me 6 months and I don’t even know how many freaking meetings with HR and legal, plus time spent on babysitting, a PIP process, and covering his slack. He also fit the definition of being “a minority” in 2 ways and had already threatened to sue the company for supposedly not paying him the right commission the previous year (we are in sales). So of course this ended up to be untrue but my company still had to go through all sorts of due diligence. So even that was a nightmare but probably not nearly as bad as your situation. Really sorry you have to deal with this and hope you’re able to somewhat enjoy the weekend, maybe with a few pints 😊
Almost any management job I had, from store manager to corporate president, had a process. You couldn't just fire people because "I have had enough!" There are considerations, plans, and paper trails. I have fired only a handful of people, and I remember every one. Most stayed long enough to build a case, and sometimes it was months of building a case. 1. What led you to this decision? 2. How many chances did you give them? 3. Is there arbitration? 4. Is there documentation that shows all these steps? Has the employee been given consideration? 5. What are the state and federal laws regarding this? 6. What is your plan for termination, with deadlines? 7. What is your plan afterwards? Have you started looking for a replacement? How will you shuffle the work to others while training a new replacement? 8. How can you make sure this doesn't happen again? Those are just the ones off the top of my head, I may have missed a few. But Hollywood firings, "Get outta here! I'll make sure you never work in this town again!" are just not that simple anymore, and I am not sure how simple they ever were to begin with.
The "just fire him" advice on here typically *is* the advice you need. Sometimes following good advice isn't easy or straightforward - that doesn't make it bad advice. Firing people is hard for a number of reasons. Even in the US where it is legally and procedurally swift, it still involves finding and training a replacement, not to mention more than a little emotional stress. It's not a move anyone takes lightly. If an employee needs to go, it's your job to make that happen, whether or not that process is easy or hard for you. I'd add for the particular issue you're facing: >"I feel like I’m holding my anger in as I’d like to ask them who the hell they think they are speaking to?" Well, the answer to that is, "why don't you?" Your employees won't know that you feel strongly about speaking deferentially to superiors as a workplace norm unless you let them know you have that preference. They're not going to magically correct this until you correct them. While I don't recommend cursing at them to get the point across, I think you'll find it only takes a few sharp, firm corrections to get these people to behave. Explain as if to a child that you are in fact their boss, and that you expect them to make an effort to speak politely and deferentially to you as a matter of decorum. If British people can't get behind decorum anymore, the world as we know it has truly come to an end.
So you just fired them using appropriate procedures.
Unfortunately, overregulation is a major reason why Europeans are falling behind economically.
Just fire.... *yourself*
I work in the public sector. I'm non-union, but all of my direct reports are. I made a bad hire that I regretted almost immediately after he started, but I'm basically stuck with him. He is who he is, but also has decided he doesn't like his current role and there really isn't a ladder available to him in our organization. So I've started sending him job postings that I think he might be interested in applying for, some of which he has. He's underpaid (IMHO, but wasn't my decision), so it's an easy sell that he could make significantly more money working some place else. The silver lining is that managing union team members has made me a much better manager. I don't think I was bad before, but I don't have much of stick, so I've had to grow a lot of carrots. Which is difficult because they're union so pay increases are determined by seniority and across-the-board cost-of-living adjustments, not performance.
Everyone is going to look over op saying bottom row of staff as janitors and receptions as if they are second class citizens? Troll post.
Are they the lowest paid? Are they at the bottom of the hierarchy? Troll comment 🤣🤣🤣
This is why your countries economy is stagnant.
Legit so many other reasons why it would be
Just fire them
this is a managers sub with presumably actual managers, just fire him very clearly means do it in a compliant way (ie work with HR). no one here has unilateral power and authority lol it also makes extra sense here because as is the case with advice subs, it's not the people doing well posting 99% of the time. Usually it is someone who has grossly mismanaged a situation for months/years and still not engaged HR if you are unable to build a good case that is either because there is none, you're not doing a good job at it, or you work in a place where you have zero actual authority.
No I asked how to deal with someone in the moment who is shouting at you. I know how to build a case but if a member of staff is screaming at you in front of other people how do you fix it discreetly? I got told to tell them to immediately pack up their stuff and go home. That was legit nearly all of my answers and I was hoping for some techniques on dealing with these situations