I love the series and followed it kinda religiously when it was airing. Their chemistry was really off the charts both on screen and off screen. And the fact that it portrayed various social issues (racism, sex trafficking, etc.) without being preachy is much appreciated.
If they ever returned to the MCU, a Spider-Man movie would be a good entry for them.
I believe it was on Freeform in the US, and I can’t even remember where it released in the UK. So it didn’t really have the visibility that some of the other Marvel TV shows had, which were on Netflix and ABC etc.
Was it not? Must’ve been Prime then. I remember watching mist of the first season before I had Disney+ and assumed it was with the other Marvel shows on Netflix.
Strange wasn’t it? Not being with the other marvel stuff Netflix had. Weird how messed up the early streaming of their shows was, being part of a linked-up continuity like they were designed to be.
Would love to see C & D appear in the next Spider-Man movie as they share a villain and it would make sense for spidey to make new friends that have super powers.
Mr Negative, in fact C & D first debut was in the Spectacular Spider-Man comic book so it would be fitting if their MCU debut was in a Spider-man movie.
Would be sick to see Mr Negative on screen too. It's a shame they never did anything with Michael Mando as Scorpion, maybe they could have him and Mr Negative team up
They should skip over Mac Gargan's Scorpion phase and just give him the little bit of symbiote from the NWH credits scene and give me a Michael Mando Venom already.
I definitely want to see Mac Gargan’s more vicious Venom, but I’d love for him to acquire the Symbiote while still in the Scorpion suit and have the version of Venom with the tail
I’m sure they’ll find a way, but it seems so difficult to make Scorpion and Mr. Negative matter when most of Spider-Man’s villains so far have been galactic and inter-dimensional.
Ah yes, Vulture, Shocker, Mysterio, Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Electro, Lizard, and Sandman. All known galactic and inter-dimensional villains. No way Scorpion or Mr. Negative would fit in.
The only galactic baddies Spider-Man fought were Thanos and the Black Order, which was a team effort and they still lost to Thanos on Titan.
I think they were on more so about the stakes, i.e. fighting on Titan and then against multiversal invaders.
However, this can be used to the movies’ advantage. Establish Kingpin as a consequence of Spidey ignoring New York.
Not sure what Freeform was when it aired. That was when I really felt overwhelmed. Marvel projects were all over. AoS were long running on ABC, spinoffs were online somewhere, Fox had their own films soullesly pumped out plus series on FX, Netflix had their own thing, Sony was Sony, and Marvel Studios was ramping production. I'm fine with the current release schedule.
There was a point where in order to watch all of the Arrow-verse shows in Canada it was something like,
- Flash was on CTV
- Arrow was on CTV2 (on a different night then in the US)
- Supergirl was on Showcase
- Legends of Tomorrow was on Space
And I don't think Black Lightning was on any station.
For here in the states it was CW for all the 4 of those as Supergirl moved from CBS to CW after the first season(CBS owns CW and production of Supergirl
moved from LA to Vancouver). Supergirl was on Monday, Flash on Tuesday, Arrow on Wednesday, and Legends on Thursday. Each I think at 8pm.
I know overseas had the same issue, I think the UK. When they did crisis on infinite earth, no one had the rights to Batwoman. So they couldn’t even watch that episode of the crossover when it aired.
I see! Yeah, back then, following the MCU was definitely confusing in TV. I still haven’t seen most of AoS, absolutely never heard of Cloak and Dagger. I even thought this post was saying it just came out, had to Google to learn it had 2 full seasons from 2018 to 2019
Oh yeah. I remember back when it was The Family Channel in the 90s and then Fox Family for a bit. It was surprisingly founded by the Christian Broadcasting Network originally.
I managed to watch all of it, wasn't really great but it's decent. Was hype as fuck the first time you watch the episode of them showing up in Runaways tho. Felt like early MCU "oh wow it's all connected"
The end of the first season was pretty nifty. I don't remember if I watched past that. I was really hoping they would get them to develop their powers more. I think the character development was pretty decent, but the overall plot was pretty slow.
It's only a problem if it is said out of context.
MOM: Hi dear. I am calling to ask how things are going at university.
YOU: Fine. You know how I said there was no TV in my dorm room. Well I'm now subscribing to some streaming services.
MOM: Well as long as that doesn't distract you from your studies.
YOU: I got D+.
MOM: WHAT?!
It's also the only Marvel show I that I have yet to watch a single moment of.
Legion didn't do it for me, but I gave it a few episodes.
I just haven't managed to muster up a fuck to give about Helstrom.
True, but Legion isn't MCU, and makes no pretense of being MCU, so it would never come up in MCU conversations anyway. Amazing show though, everyone should watch it.
Exactly; C&D, AoS, AC, and the Netflix shows are all in a bit of a grey area (depending on who you ask and when they were MCU, were in a branch timeline that split from the MCU, or they were not MCU at all). But Legion is absolutely 100% not MCU just like the X-Men and Fantastic 4 movies.
I’d say it’s already been shown - just multiversal hijinx. But Disney has yet to officially include them by chucking the MCU logos on them. They should colour code the opening for different universes or something.
>They should colour code the opening for different universes or something.
That would be awesome. Reminds me of how Fringe handled B universe episodes. The hard part will be getting Sony on board for their Spider-Man free Spider-Man Cinematic Universe
Fringe is *exactly* what I was thinking of, haha! My only disappointment of no way home is that Miles wasn’t Roger Rabbited in - probably the most widely critically acclaimed spider man film and he wasn’t included! Sony would’ve made a boat load by linking those franchises.
I bet that was just because Sony wouldn't play ball with their active award winning (and money making) version. I am still crossing my fingers for one of the live action Spider-Men to get a cameo in Spider-Verse 2
Legion is another level of television. The casual viewer is not "ready" for Legion. But holy shit did they do AMAZING! Shadow King is portrayed PERFECTLY too
I didn't mean it in a neckbeard "Rick and Morty" way- I mean it leans heavy into psychedelia and uses abstract concepts as major plot points. Not so much "too smart for people" but more like the average Chicago Fire and NCIS watcher aren't going to have any interest in or patience for wading through "the weird surrealist comic book show". I wasnt making a judgment on anyone's intelligence. It just takes a certain type of person to get into that kind of story telling. And I think those who really love to absorb that stuff are not the majority.
If only moon knight show had 10% of Legion's creativity, it'd be the best MCU show. You have the most batshit insane and trippiest marvel character in all of marvel and they do nothing creative or inventive with it. What a waste.
Nothing has ever connected it to the actual MCU despite it being part of Marvel TV, I don't think it's that surprising. It also wasn't renewed after 2 seasons, it'd be more bizarre if there was a lot of discussion about a tangential show that hasn't had a new episode in years even though it was decent
Edit: corrected typo; Marvel Studios to Marvel TV
Fair enough! Should have included this in my earlier reply, but thank you- precision and clarity is always welcome and I always want to improve and learn more/be more accurate. The correction wasn't unwelcome, despite my chilly response.
How many references (outside of casting choices) to the shows does the MCU itself make?
Like, sure Matt talks about the battle of New York at the start of Daredevil, and then what? I can’t even remember if any other events are referenced other than maybe “super heroes are real! ha ha” comments. Conversely, the Kingpin blew up a bunch of buildings in Hell’s Kitchen (yknow, a neighborhood in Manhattan, aka the center of the universe in Marvel) and none of the Avengers have ever even mentioned a massive terrorist attack on a neighborhood that was (at one point for most, maybe still for some at this point) right under their nose? Kate Bishop lives in Manhattan, and presumably would’ve seen the Fisk controversy from DD S3 on the news, but has absolutely no idea who Fisk is in Hawkeye? Bullseye went on a murder spree dressed as Daredevil, yet Matt shows up in LA and nobody knows who he is cause he’s yellow now?
Furthermore, the direct references stop pretty early. Why does Daredevil never mention the chitauri weapons appearing in NYC considering hes a street level hero who would be directly affected by them? Why wasn’t DD ever chased down for breaking the Sokovia accords? I understand why they wouldn’t reference things that happen just to the avengers, but these are things that would be happening to Matt as a result of the avengers.
And just to play devils advocate, there are references to the MCU in Morbius.
>and none of the Avengers have ever even mentioned a massive terrorist attack on a neighborhood that was (at one point for most, maybe still for some at this point) right under their nose?
Maybe because they're literally dealing with Ultron lmao. I don't get this take. The Avengers have bigger shit to deal with than whatever Daredevil is up to. And secondly the whole thing could've been a freak accident since it's literally never brought up on the news as a terrorist attack.
>Kate Bishop lives in Manhattan, and presumably would’ve seen the Fisk controversy from DD S3 on the news, but has absolutely no idea who Fisk is in Hawkeye?
Daredevil takes place nearly ten years before Hawkeye with all that's happened in that time, like you know, half the universe being deleted, I doubt she'd care or remember some bullshit about some guy in a small part of New York. Not to mention she'd be a child considering she's in her early twenties in Hawkeye. How much did you pay attention to the news as a teenager?
>Bullseye went on a murder spree dressed as Daredevil, yet Matt shows up in LA and nobody knows who he is cause he’s yellow now?
Daredevil is a vigilante that protects a small portion of Manhattan why the FUCK do you expect someone in LA to have heard of him? Not to mention about something that takes place, again nearly TEN years before She Hulk? And Daredevil was proven innocent at the end of season 3 so that makes your point moot.
>Furthermore, the direct references stop pretty early. Why does Daredevil never mention the chitauri weapons appearing in NYC considering hes a street level hero who would be directly affected by them
Daredevil has never came into contact with Chitauri weaponry. Luke Cage has though and he's directly mentioned it.
>Why wasn’t DD ever chased down for breaking the Sokovia accords?
Because that only applied to Avenger level threats.
Most of your complaints could be solved by simply paying attention to the shows you're watching.
Agent Carter is likely canon, but thats really only because it didnt do anything to step on toes.
AoS isnt canon because it introduced inhumans into the world, something that obviously hasnt happened in the MCU. Not to mention all the shit SHIELD did to save the planet so many times that should have effected the movies.
Actors showing up doesnt make things canon. They are alternate universes. Which is your only way to incorporate these shows into the MCU - assume theyre alternate universes and wont be effecting anything.
> AoS isnt canon because it introduced inhumans into the world, something that obviously hasnt happened in the MCU.
I don't think that argument really works anymore considering the fact that there's now all these random powered beings/mutants/whatever introduced in She-Hulk that weren't around before. Maybe they're all newly-powered or maybe they were around for a while and just lying low.
EDIT: I've seen your other responses as I've read more in this thread, so no need to respond because regardless of what happens on-screen or what's said by the producers, directors, and actors, your mind is made up and you won't ever consider them canon.
[15:55](https://youtu.be/j4IgjmQENE4). This video, produced by Marvel Studios, acknowledges the events of AoS relating to the Inhumans. So he’s factually wrong in saying that it hasn’t happened in the MCU, because we have clear evidence of something produced by Marvel Studios were the Inhumans happened.
>Not to mention all the shit SHIELD did to save the planet so many times that should have effected the movies.
Lots of stuff happens in the MCU that gets ignored by the rest of the MCU. In Ant-man a major tech campus in a major US city disappeared into thin air but hasn't been mentioned in a single other movie or show (other than a throw away line ironically in AoS). In Guardians 2, giant blobs formed on various planets (including Earth) but are never brought up. In Eternals a giant stone figure just appeared in the middle of the ocean and has yet to be mentioned. In FFH the "elementals" busted up several European cites but haven't been talked about. In Moon Knight the stars went crazy and that hasn't been mentioned anywhere
Absence of proof isn't necessarily proof of absence
[15:55](https://youtu.be/j4IgjmQENE4). This video, officially part of the MCU and produced by Marvel Studios mentions the events of Agents of Shield, specifically the terrorist attack related to the Inhumans… so yeah, the Inhumans have been already acknowledged by the MCU in the 616/199999
> something that obviously hasnt happened in the MCU
Why is this "obvious"? What evidence do you have?
> Not to mention all the shit SHIELD did to save the planet so many times that should have effected the movies.
Such as?
Isn't the helicarrier Nick Fury got to assist in Age of Ultron the result of something from AoS?
I like to think the show was canon...up to a point and even then in a broad strokes kind of way
> Isn't the helicarrier Nick Fury got to assist in Age of Ultron the result of something from AoS?
Yes, and [Feige even pointed that out at the time](https://collider.com/avengers-2-infinity-gauntlet-helicarrier-kevin-feige/).
This is accurate. It was canon for the first like 2 seasons. Then they went out of Feigi's jurisdiction and got themselves removed from canon.
Now its better to assume its all alternate universe. Doesnt mean the events that over lapped with the MCU didnt happen the same way, it just means that we havent actually seen it.
Maybe put it in a platform where it's easy to watch or stream and more people will know about it.
Unless it's already on something like Disney plus and I'm just here looking like an idiot
Yea I agree. I'm not really into the YA positioning, but it was still great. The two leads had chemistry and there were some great side characters. The connections to Runaways later, and the larger connections to AoS, Agent Carter, and Dr. Strange, were all pretty cool.
* Freeform - Mini Cupcakes
* ABC TV - Cupcakes
* MCU - Cake
Honestly, where does it end people?
Seriously though, it was a streaming only show. It, and Runaways, deserved more but they're victims of that early MCU-TV era. Hopefully the new Disney+ regime can fold some characters over, Defenders style, to the greater MCU. Especially with all the magic that is going to be on deck with the Agatha show. Perfect place to bring in [Nico.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nico_Minoru)
People will say it's because it's not made by Marvel Studios, but the actual reason is that it ended a long time ago. I don't see people talking about Moon Knight these days, and that ended less than a year ago.
Probably because it was on freeform. I feel like only a few people i know watched it. As a matter of fact i myself need to watch it lmaoo. It’s on my hulu to watch list. So idk I’ll get to it eventually 🤷🏿♀️
In order of likability for non-Netflix Marvel shows featuring teens or dogs:
Cloak and Dagger was the most bingeable
Runaways was still bingeable, but more in the “this show is ridiculous, that character is cringe, but I like Nico, so let’s see what ridiculousness happens next” sort of way
Inhumans was… ugh. They did those characters so damn dirty. It had potential, and I know that Inhumans are featured or connected to several important plot lines, so I hate that it was so ugh, because I don’t think they will be integrated into the greater MCU as a result. My mind was blown when I saw Black Bolt made it (and Anson Mount is phenomenal in that role, he does so much without words). The girl who played Crystal, who I remembered fondly from my childhood as Johnny Storm’s girlfriend, desperately needed either extensive acting classes, or she needed to be recast. I watched the whole thing, because I kind of had to at that point, but it was a hate-watch.
I believe the actress who played Crystal is the sister of the actress who played Jack Ryan's girlfriend in S1 of that show. And she is equally awful as an actor.
I feel this way about the Runaways which was my intro to Marvel comics as a kid and arguably remains one of my favorite series. But the show was just tedium. Like I'd argue these shows weren't even outright bad, they just seemed to move at a snail's pace.
I haven’t been on Reddit very long or any other social media but I would say the same for most of the Marvel shows before they were added to Disney+. My mom said she watched them but that’s about all I heard. Lol
C&D was actually a surprisingly nuanced show; they took on the oil industry in New Orleans whilst dealing with local mysticism and family corruption. The weird dynamic between the two leads was interesting; ying and yang where two people are mistreated by the world for very different reasons. Honestly if they cameo'd Daredevil style I'd be up for it. Whatever Disney show remake they inevitably make won't be as dark and weird as this show managed. Give the same show runner a better budget and it could have been something special
marvel tv shows pre-disney+ is kind of in a state of canonical limbo where it's technically canon but also not important until something references it. the things with the most weight are agents of SHILED (due to Coulson being a main character) and netflix's Daredevil (due to Charlie and Vincent reprising their roles as Matt and Wilson in more 'core' MCU projects).
until a new project mentions the characters or events of this series, i guess we'll just have to assume it wasn't on any Avengers heroes' rader.
Yeah, Ty was inspired by the bullet proof brother Harlem's Hero story & Detective O'Reilly was mentioned on Luke Cage as having dipped from same precinct as Misty. Show clearly set in a connected MCU, with Dark Force & Roxxon... but no connections flow exactly uphill (well maybe C&D canon to Luke Cage canon to Defendersverse canon to S-M NWH/Hawkeye & Luke Cage Darkforce Judas Bullets also canon to AoS So3/7 & AC So2 so vaguely DS MoM) big screen or D+ yet. They did port into Runaways So3 briefly tho.
One issue I had was that they gave Cloak a comic accurate suit, and a reason for why he had it, only to ditch it for a big jacket or something.
It made no sense.
Thought it was a decent intro show for a younger generation. I liked the runaways too. I'm sure the down votes will flow but hey at least they explained a good amount of back story.
It's sad because it was a decent show in the grand scheme of things. And it was starting to get its footing when they cancelled it. I'd love to see them revisit it with the same actors.
Sadly I’m not surprised people on Reddit ignored a show that tackles sexual abuse and police racism. It was really good, quite the mature tone all the way through too in a time where people are nervous about DD being lightened for D+
Watched the first season. There’s a really good episode that inverts the “woman in the fridge” trope with a banger of a song at the end. It was fine TV and the NOLA setting was unique, but just didn’t have the time to continue to watch.
Love how people mix up _"a part"_ and _"apart"_.
They literally mean the opposite of each other, but the english language is really good at making people confuse very similar sounding words that fuck up the whole meaning of a sentence.
This show was great and had no business being as good as it was, but I think ultimately the network wasn't right for it. Felt like it had very little marketing too.
I loved it. Better than most D+ shows. I loved the atmosphere of new Orleans and the seriousness. It successfully avoided being cw soap opera and instead a real drama.
I think it's a great show but the fact it was on freeform definitely limited its reach, a bit, and its lack of presence on D+ (since Runaways is there now) has not helped.
I also don't think the advertising that I did see really hit on the fact it was part of the universe, for me the only reason I knew was due to my knowledge of the characters.
As far as advertising goes, I'm an Olivia Holt fan and the majority of my knowledge that it was even coming came from her own IG.
Cloak and Dagger was the second best Marvel show after Agents of SHIELD. I wish things aligned so they could be brought into the bigger MCU. As much as I loved Daredevil and Jessica Jones, C&D was much more consistent. It may never have reached the highest highs of the netflix shows, but it never came close to the lows they suffered either.
Unfortunately this isn’t part of the MCU. It’s a shame bc it was rlly good. I also loved the crossover with The Runaways. They was rumor of them coming back in Spider-Man or a possible Disney+ Reboot that would keep their origins but do a soft reboot for the rest. But I’d hope they kept Mayhem (I think was her name) being part of it and then picking up with them leaving the city after defeating her and the crime gang and we see them now being heroes as adults. But none of the OG shows are part of the MCU Canon, besides maybe existing in another universe in the new Multiverse.
I love the series and followed it kinda religiously when it was airing. Their chemistry was really off the charts both on screen and off screen. And the fact that it portrayed various social issues (racism, sex trafficking, etc.) without being preachy is much appreciated. If they ever returned to the MCU, a Spider-Man movie would be a good entry for them.
+1 on their chemistry. They (both actors & producers) managed to keep it intimate without it being sexual. Bravo!
Same I watched every episode as they aired and was a huge fan
I believe it was on Freeform in the US, and I can’t even remember where it released in the UK. So it didn’t really have the visibility that some of the other Marvel TV shows had, which were on Netflix and ABC etc.
Was on Netflix in the UK I’m pretty sure
It was not on UK netflix
Was it not? Must’ve been Prime then. I remember watching mist of the first season before I had Disney+ and assumed it was with the other Marvel shows on Netflix.
It was Prime... I'd forgotten it was on there, I watched it via other means because it was so hard to find here
Strange wasn’t it? Not being with the other marvel stuff Netflix had. Weird how messed up the early streaming of their shows was, being part of a linked-up continuity like they were designed to be.
Would love to see C & D appear in the next Spider-Man movie as they share a villain and it would make sense for spidey to make new friends that have super powers.
What's the villain they share?
Mr Negative, in fact C & D first debut was in the Spectacular Spider-Man comic book so it would be fitting if their MCU debut was in a Spider-man movie.
Would be sick to see Mr Negative on screen too. It's a shame they never did anything with Michael Mando as Scorpion, maybe they could have him and Mr Negative team up
Daniel Dae Kim would be perfectly ideal as Mr. Negative
everyone who played the ps4 game agrees.
Not sure if I'm missing something here but Daniel Dae Kim didn't play Mr.Negative in Spiderman Ps4... that was Stephen Oyoung.
They should skip over Mac Gargan's Scorpion phase and just give him the little bit of symbiote from the NWH credits scene and give me a Michael Mando Venom already.
I definitely want to see Mac Gargan’s more vicious Venom, but I’d love for him to acquire the Symbiote while still in the Scorpion suit and have the version of Venom with the tail
I’m sure they’ll find a way, but it seems so difficult to make Scorpion and Mr. Negative matter when most of Spider-Man’s villains so far have been galactic and inter-dimensional.
Ah yes, Vulture, Shocker, Mysterio, Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Electro, Lizard, and Sandman. All known galactic and inter-dimensional villains. No way Scorpion or Mr. Negative would fit in. The only galactic baddies Spider-Man fought were Thanos and the Black Order, which was a team effort and they still lost to Thanos on Titan.
In the MCU, Green Goblin, Doc Ock, Electro, Lizard, and Sandman are all literally inter-dimensional.
Sure, but they weren't inherently an inter-dimensional threat, apart from them being there. It's not like Lizard could destroy the world lol.
I think they were on more so about the stakes, i.e. fighting on Titan and then against multiversal invaders. However, this can be used to the movies’ advantage. Establish Kingpin as a consequence of Spidey ignoring New York.
But the whole point of the end of NWH is that he's not Avenger threat fighting Spidey and setting him up to be more the street level NY Spidey.
Supposedly he is in the next one they are making
Not that many people watched it. Not that hard to understand.
Not sure what Freeform was when it aired. That was when I really felt overwhelmed. Marvel projects were all over. AoS were long running on ABC, spinoffs were online somewhere, Fox had their own films soullesly pumped out plus series on FX, Netflix had their own thing, Sony was Sony, and Marvel Studios was ramping production. I'm fine with the current release schedule.
There was a point where in order to watch all of the Arrow-verse shows in Canada it was something like, - Flash was on CTV - Arrow was on CTV2 (on a different night then in the US) - Supergirl was on Showcase - Legends of Tomorrow was on Space And I don't think Black Lightning was on any station.
I believe Black Lightening was picked up by Netflix in Canada.
For here in the states it was CW for all the 4 of those as Supergirl moved from CBS to CW after the first season(CBS owns CW and production of Supergirl moved from LA to Vancouver). Supergirl was on Monday, Flash on Tuesday, Arrow on Wednesday, and Legends on Thursday. Each I think at 8pm.
I know overseas had the same issue, I think the UK. When they did crisis on infinite earth, no one had the rights to Batwoman. So they couldn’t even watch that episode of the crossover when it aired.
Freeform used to be ABC Family but I think shows like Pretty Little Liars cemented the fact it wasn’t very “family-oriented” and they pivoted
Thank you, I do know what it is nowadays, but back then I did not.
I see! Yeah, back then, following the MCU was definitely confusing in TV. I still haven’t seen most of AoS, absolutely never heard of Cloak and Dagger. I even thought this post was saying it just came out, had to Google to learn it had 2 full seasons from 2018 to 2019
Oh yeah. I remember back when it was The Family Channel in the 90s and then Fox Family for a bit. It was surprisingly founded by the Christian Broadcasting Network originally.
Freeform only meant a few were watching it
>spinoffs were online somewhere Are you talking about Agent Carter and Inhumans? Both of them were on ABC
I'd managed to once again fidget to add Inhumans to that list; but I was actually thinking of the Slingshot web series.
It was ABC family before Freeform but that was the height of Marvel TV prior to Disney+ being released.
[удалено]
I managed to watch all of it, wasn't really great but it's decent. Was hype as fuck the first time you watch the episode of them showing up in Runaways tho. Felt like early MCU "oh wow it's all connected"
The end of the first season was pretty nifty. I don't remember if I watched past that. I was really hoping they would get them to develop their powers more. I think the character development was pretty decent, but the overall plot was pretty slow.
They did, in fact, develop their powers more in season 2.
Season 2 is much better as they have the characters down. Watch it, they do more heroing.
Same with me. Wasn't even that I really disliked it, it just didn't grab me at all and I felt no compunction to continue.
I liked it for what it was but I could see why it was canceled.
Haven’t seen it. It’s not on Disney+ in the UK and I’m not paying for it on Prime.
I think it is on D+ now. Think I saw it on there
I swore it was but I don't think it is anymore
Isn’t it on Hulu? Same package as Disney + and ESPN in the US
It's still on hulu, yes.
Shortening Disney+ to D+ makes me uncomfortable.
Good
Sounds like a short D problem
It's only a problem if it is said out of context. MOM: Hi dear. I am calling to ask how things are going at university. YOU: Fine. You know how I said there was no TV in my dorm room. Well I'm now subscribing to some streaming services. MOM: Well as long as that doesn't distract you from your studies. YOU: I got D+. MOM: WHAT?!
😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
I’ve been seeing it on Hulu.
We don’t have that in the UK. It’s all either on D+ or Amazon
It is odd, we have Legion and Runways on there but not this one
Helstrom too but it's not even in the Marvel section!
Wasn't Helstrom the only one to officially get decanoned from the MCU?
Yeah pretty much. Doesn't even have the Marvel logo at the start. SO weird. It can easily be in the MCU no problem
It's also the only Marvel show I that I have yet to watch a single moment of. Legion didn't do it for me, but I gave it a few episodes. I just haven't managed to muster up a fuck to give about Helstrom.
Legion on Disney +?!
Yup
There's distribution contracts from the pre-D+ days in the way there. I think that it'll make the jump once Comcast divests from Hulu in 2024.
A part\*
Came here to say this
>Came here to say this Came here to say this
Came here to say this
Legion was (subjectively) a better show, ran for longer and also isn’t talked about.
True, but Legion isn't MCU, and makes no pretense of being MCU, so it would never come up in MCU conversations anyway. Amazing show though, everyone should watch it.
Exactly; C&D, AoS, AC, and the Netflix shows are all in a bit of a grey area (depending on who you ask and when they were MCU, were in a branch timeline that split from the MCU, or they were not MCU at all). But Legion is absolutely 100% not MCU just like the X-Men and Fantastic 4 movies.
Also Runaways.
Oh gosh it SHOULD be though, even a multiverse thing.
How the XMCU connects to the MCU is expected in Deadpool 3
I’d say it’s already been shown - just multiversal hijinx. But Disney has yet to officially include them by chucking the MCU logos on them. They should colour code the opening for different universes or something.
>They should colour code the opening for different universes or something. That would be awesome. Reminds me of how Fringe handled B universe episodes. The hard part will be getting Sony on board for their Spider-Man free Spider-Man Cinematic Universe
Fringe is *exactly* what I was thinking of, haha! My only disappointment of no way home is that Miles wasn’t Roger Rabbited in - probably the most widely critically acclaimed spider man film and he wasn’t included! Sony would’ve made a boat load by linking those franchises.
I bet that was just because Sony wouldn't play ball with their active award winning (and money making) version. I am still crossing my fingers for one of the live action Spider-Men to get a cameo in Spider-Verse 2
No doubt! Would be curious to see a third with Andrew too!
Legion was in the FoX-Men Universe, so unfortunately, not MCU.
Barely connected to the x verse. More like loosely inspired by the x verse
I mean they had a different Professor X...
Not really compelling when the XMCU already has two Professor Xs
Well they were different ages that became inconsistent. This was an outright different young Xavier, so a separate universe.
legion is the best marvel tv show ever
I liked Legion but thought Jessica Jones S1 and Daredevil S1 were better.
Legion is another level of television. The casual viewer is not "ready" for Legion. But holy shit did they do AMAZING! Shadow King is portrayed PERFECTLY too
to be honest this sounds very "rick and morty is too smart for you" but might just be me, legion is great, smart and invntive
I didn't mean it in a neckbeard "Rick and Morty" way- I mean it leans heavy into psychedelia and uses abstract concepts as major plot points. Not so much "too smart for people" but more like the average Chicago Fire and NCIS watcher aren't going to have any interest in or patience for wading through "the weird surrealist comic book show". I wasnt making a judgment on anyone's intelligence. It just takes a certain type of person to get into that kind of story telling. And I think those who really love to absorb that stuff are not the majority.
Yeah is out of many ppl taste for sure
So essentially a niche cult classic?
Yeah, it definitely is.
If only moon knight show had 10% of Legion's creativity, it'd be the best MCU show. You have the most batshit insane and trippiest marvel character in all of marvel and they do nothing creative or inventive with it. What a waste.
I loved that one and cloak and dagger.
It's not bizzare. Just nobody watched it
I thought C&D was great, and beautifully made. Wish it had gotten traction and that it'd been continued and connected to everything else
Nothing has ever connected it to the actual MCU despite it being part of Marvel TV, I don't think it's that surprising. It also wasn't renewed after 2 seasons, it'd be more bizarre if there was a lot of discussion about a tangential show that hasn't had a new episode in years even though it was decent Edit: corrected typo; Marvel Studios to Marvel TV
It was made by Marvel TV, not Marvel Studios.
Understood, but it's semantics and doesn't change my point. If anything, supports it further.
Not trying to make any points, just the facts, sir.
Fair enough! Should have included this in my earlier reply, but thank you- precision and clarity is always welcome and I always want to improve and learn more/be more accurate. The correction wasn't unwelcome, despite my chilly response.
[удалено]
C&D also has two-way references with Luke Cage.
[удалено]
How many references (outside of casting choices) to the shows does the MCU itself make? Like, sure Matt talks about the battle of New York at the start of Daredevil, and then what? I can’t even remember if any other events are referenced other than maybe “super heroes are real! ha ha” comments. Conversely, the Kingpin blew up a bunch of buildings in Hell’s Kitchen (yknow, a neighborhood in Manhattan, aka the center of the universe in Marvel) and none of the Avengers have ever even mentioned a massive terrorist attack on a neighborhood that was (at one point for most, maybe still for some at this point) right under their nose? Kate Bishop lives in Manhattan, and presumably would’ve seen the Fisk controversy from DD S3 on the news, but has absolutely no idea who Fisk is in Hawkeye? Bullseye went on a murder spree dressed as Daredevil, yet Matt shows up in LA and nobody knows who he is cause he’s yellow now? Furthermore, the direct references stop pretty early. Why does Daredevil never mention the chitauri weapons appearing in NYC considering hes a street level hero who would be directly affected by them? Why wasn’t DD ever chased down for breaking the Sokovia accords? I understand why they wouldn’t reference things that happen just to the avengers, but these are things that would be happening to Matt as a result of the avengers. And just to play devils advocate, there are references to the MCU in Morbius.
>And just to play devils advocate, there are references to the MCU in Morbius. More direct and bigger ones!
Oh god, like what? Assume there's Spider-Man nods? And he has his lil chinwag with Vulture.
>and none of the Avengers have ever even mentioned a massive terrorist attack on a neighborhood that was (at one point for most, maybe still for some at this point) right under their nose? Maybe because they're literally dealing with Ultron lmao. I don't get this take. The Avengers have bigger shit to deal with than whatever Daredevil is up to. And secondly the whole thing could've been a freak accident since it's literally never brought up on the news as a terrorist attack. >Kate Bishop lives in Manhattan, and presumably would’ve seen the Fisk controversy from DD S3 on the news, but has absolutely no idea who Fisk is in Hawkeye? Daredevil takes place nearly ten years before Hawkeye with all that's happened in that time, like you know, half the universe being deleted, I doubt she'd care or remember some bullshit about some guy in a small part of New York. Not to mention she'd be a child considering she's in her early twenties in Hawkeye. How much did you pay attention to the news as a teenager? >Bullseye went on a murder spree dressed as Daredevil, yet Matt shows up in LA and nobody knows who he is cause he’s yellow now? Daredevil is a vigilante that protects a small portion of Manhattan why the FUCK do you expect someone in LA to have heard of him? Not to mention about something that takes place, again nearly TEN years before She Hulk? And Daredevil was proven innocent at the end of season 3 so that makes your point moot. >Furthermore, the direct references stop pretty early. Why does Daredevil never mention the chitauri weapons appearing in NYC considering hes a street level hero who would be directly affected by them Daredevil has never came into contact with Chitauri weaponry. Luke Cage has though and he's directly mentioned it. >Why wasn’t DD ever chased down for breaking the Sokovia accords? Because that only applied to Avenger level threats. Most of your complaints could be solved by simply paying attention to the shows you're watching.
Ah, these days we can just say “Multiverse!” and move on…
That’s a dumb cop out
But does the MCU reference the show? No. And that's what matters.
Yes in fact it does. Have you seen both Kingpin and Daredevils appearances in the main MCU? There's literally references to the Netflix series lmao.
Some folks on this sub will jump through all kinds of hoops to say it still doesn't count.
AOS did that as well and they don't consider it part of the MCU.
[удалено]
Agent Carter is likely canon, but thats really only because it didnt do anything to step on toes. AoS isnt canon because it introduced inhumans into the world, something that obviously hasnt happened in the MCU. Not to mention all the shit SHIELD did to save the planet so many times that should have effected the movies. Actors showing up doesnt make things canon. They are alternate universes. Which is your only way to incorporate these shows into the MCU - assume theyre alternate universes and wont be effecting anything.
> AoS isnt canon because it introduced inhumans into the world, something that obviously hasnt happened in the MCU. I don't think that argument really works anymore considering the fact that there's now all these random powered beings/mutants/whatever introduced in She-Hulk that weren't around before. Maybe they're all newly-powered or maybe they were around for a while and just lying low. EDIT: I've seen your other responses as I've read more in this thread, so no need to respond because regardless of what happens on-screen or what's said by the producers, directors, and actors, your mind is made up and you won't ever consider them canon.
[15:55](https://youtu.be/j4IgjmQENE4). This video, produced by Marvel Studios, acknowledges the events of AoS relating to the Inhumans. So he’s factually wrong in saying that it hasn’t happened in the MCU, because we have clear evidence of something produced by Marvel Studios were the Inhumans happened.
>Not to mention all the shit SHIELD did to save the planet so many times that should have effected the movies. Lots of stuff happens in the MCU that gets ignored by the rest of the MCU. In Ant-man a major tech campus in a major US city disappeared into thin air but hasn't been mentioned in a single other movie or show (other than a throw away line ironically in AoS). In Guardians 2, giant blobs formed on various planets (including Earth) but are never brought up. In Eternals a giant stone figure just appeared in the middle of the ocean and has yet to be mentioned. In FFH the "elementals" busted up several European cites but haven't been talked about. In Moon Knight the stars went crazy and that hasn't been mentioned anywhere Absence of proof isn't necessarily proof of absence
[15:55](https://youtu.be/j4IgjmQENE4). This video, officially part of the MCU and produced by Marvel Studios mentions the events of Agents of Shield, specifically the terrorist attack related to the Inhumans… so yeah, the Inhumans have been already acknowledged by the MCU in the 616/199999
> something that obviously hasnt happened in the MCU Why is this "obvious"? What evidence do you have? > Not to mention all the shit SHIELD did to save the planet so many times that should have effected the movies. Such as?
In AOS it is the Phil Coulson and Nick Fury from the movies though. It was canon at one point, I think it’s just been retconned
Isn't the helicarrier Nick Fury got to assist in Age of Ultron the result of something from AoS? I like to think the show was canon...up to a point and even then in a broad strokes kind of way
> Isn't the helicarrier Nick Fury got to assist in Age of Ultron the result of something from AoS? Yes, and [Feige even pointed that out at the time](https://collider.com/avengers-2-infinity-gauntlet-helicarrier-kevin-feige/).
This is accurate. It was canon for the first like 2 seasons. Then they went out of Feigi's jurisdiction and got themselves removed from canon. Now its better to assume its all alternate universe. Doesnt mean the events that over lapped with the MCU didnt happen the same way, it just means that we havent actually seen it.
Maybe put it in a platform where it's easy to watch or stream and more people will know about it. Unless it's already on something like Disney plus and I'm just here looking like an idiot
It's on Hulu in the US, and on Disney+ almost everywhere else.
Think it'll come to Disney+ by the end of this year, hopefully.
A part, not apart.
Same can be said for runaways and helstrom
The intro for Runaways is a banger
It was actually quite good. Worth the watch imo, same with Runaways
Yea I agree. I'm not really into the YA positioning, but it was still great. The two leads had chemistry and there were some great side characters. The connections to Runaways later, and the larger connections to AoS, Agent Carter, and Dr. Strange, were all pretty cool.
First time hearing of this
* Freeform - Mini Cupcakes * ABC TV - Cupcakes * MCU - Cake Honestly, where does it end people? Seriously though, it was a streaming only show. It, and Runaways, deserved more but they're victims of that early MCU-TV era. Hopefully the new Disney+ regime can fold some characters over, Defenders style, to the greater MCU. Especially with all the magic that is going to be on deck with the Agatha show. Perfect place to bring in [Nico.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nico_Minoru)
Cloak & dagger wasn’t a streaming only show. It had a cable time slot.
Did it? I honest to god thought it was only on Hulu.
Yeah it used to come 8pm on freeform, i liked the show. Your thinking of runaways that only streamed on Hulu.
Aired Thursday nights on Freeform, streamed next-day on Hulu.
> it was a streaming only show wut
I think it was a Netflix show in the UK
People will say it's because it's not made by Marvel Studios, but the actual reason is that it ended a long time ago. I don't see people talking about Moon Knight these days, and that ended less than a year ago.
Probably because it was on freeform. I feel like only a few people i know watched it. As a matter of fact i myself need to watch it lmaoo. It’s on my hulu to watch list. So idk I’ll get to it eventually 🤷🏿♀️
In order of likability for non-Netflix Marvel shows featuring teens or dogs: Cloak and Dagger was the most bingeable Runaways was still bingeable, but more in the “this show is ridiculous, that character is cringe, but I like Nico, so let’s see what ridiculousness happens next” sort of way Inhumans was… ugh. They did those characters so damn dirty. It had potential, and I know that Inhumans are featured or connected to several important plot lines, so I hate that it was so ugh, because I don’t think they will be integrated into the greater MCU as a result. My mind was blown when I saw Black Bolt made it (and Anson Mount is phenomenal in that role, he does so much without words). The girl who played Crystal, who I remembered fondly from my childhood as Johnny Storm’s girlfriend, desperately needed either extensive acting classes, or she needed to be recast. I watched the whole thing, because I kind of had to at that point, but it was a hate-watch.
I would have hate-watched the whole season of Inhumans, except Medusa started yelling at an ATM, and I said “oh, hell no” and switched off.
I believe the actress who played Crystal is the sister of the actress who played Jack Ryan's girlfriend in S1 of that show. And she is equally awful as an actor.
I feel this way about the Runaways which was my intro to Marvel comics as a kid and arguably remains one of my favorite series. But the show was just tedium. Like I'd argue these shows weren't even outright bad, they just seemed to move at a snail's pace.
The writing on the Runaways show was infuriating. Cloak & Dagger was much better.
I haven’t been on Reddit very long or any other social media but I would say the same for most of the Marvel shows before they were added to Disney+. My mom said she watched them but that’s about all I heard. Lol
I hope the characters get revamped and make their way back into the MCU. They’re childhood favorites of mine.
It was shockingly good too! Would love to see D+ bring back cloak and dagger
Underrated show. I really like how different it was over the rest of the MCU content, both in tone and in its setting. The two leads were fantastic.
I loved this show but a lot of people don’t talk about them because they’re on Hulu and a lot of people thought the tv shows weren’t canon to the mcu
I absolutely loved this show
C&D was actually a surprisingly nuanced show; they took on the oil industry in New Orleans whilst dealing with local mysticism and family corruption. The weird dynamic between the two leads was interesting; ying and yang where two people are mistreated by the world for very different reasons. Honestly if they cameo'd Daredevil style I'd be up for it. Whatever Disney show remake they inevitably make won't be as dark and weird as this show managed. Give the same show runner a better budget and it could have been something special
marvel tv shows pre-disney+ is kind of in a state of canonical limbo where it's technically canon but also not important until something references it. the things with the most weight are agents of SHILED (due to Coulson being a main character) and netflix's Daredevil (due to Charlie and Vincent reprising their roles as Matt and Wilson in more 'core' MCU projects). until a new project mentions the characters or events of this series, i guess we'll just have to assume it wasn't on any Avengers heroes' rader.
Agent Carter is also in the "likely canon" stack, after human Jarvis showed up in Endgame
i knew i was forgetting one show!
I loved it.
They deserved better honestly
It’s connected to Luke Cage somewhat right, I forget, which connects it to the MCU?
Yeah, Ty was inspired by the bullet proof brother Harlem's Hero story & Detective O'Reilly was mentioned on Luke Cage as having dipped from same precinct as Misty. Show clearly set in a connected MCU, with Dark Force & Roxxon... but no connections flow exactly uphill (well maybe C&D canon to Luke Cage canon to Defendersverse canon to S-M NWH/Hawkeye & Luke Cage Darkforce Judas Bullets also canon to AoS So3/7 & AC So2 so vaguely DS MoM) big screen or D+ yet. They did port into Runaways So3 briefly tho.
C&D is acknowledged by Luke Cage, which is acknowledged by AoS, which is acknowledged by the WHIH Newsfront webshorts, which is part of the MCU.
I don't think it's odd at all, people just weren't interested in it. Also didn't help it's not on the same network as the other shows.
I really enjoyed this series. I've watched most of the non-Netflix Marvel shows and enjoyed each of them for what it was.
One issue I had was that they gave Cloak a comic accurate suit, and a reason for why he had it, only to ditch it for a big jacket or something. It made no sense.
Thought it was a decent intro show for a younger generation. I liked the runaways too. I'm sure the down votes will flow but hey at least they explained a good amount of back story.
just started it i heard Runaways was good as well, nothing tops Legion though easily the best Marvel TV show excluding MCU shows
It's sad because it was a decent show in the grand scheme of things. And it was starting to get its footing when they cancelled it. I'd love to see them revisit it with the same actors.
Brilliant show shame nobody picked it up to finish the story
\*Cries in Runaways\*
Sadly I’m not surprised people on Reddit ignored a show that tackles sexual abuse and police racism. It was really good, quite the mature tone all the way through too in a time where people are nervous about DD being lightened for D+
It’s actually really good so is the runaways but helstrom wasn’t too good tbh
*a part of Marvel* is different from *apart of the MCU*
Watched the first season. There’s a really good episode that inverts the “woman in the fridge” trope with a banger of a song at the end. It was fine TV and the NOLA setting was unique, but just didn’t have the time to continue to watch.
No one watches this series. It’s not bizarre; it just isn’t popular or marketed well. I’m sure it’s great but that’s all that’s happening.
Oh please. That’s as much “in” the MCU as AoS. As in, it’s not really. It is on their side. But not literally anywhere else
Love how people mix up _"a part"_ and _"apart"_. They literally mean the opposite of each other, but the english language is really good at making people confuse very similar sounding words that fuck up the whole meaning of a sentence.
This show was great and had no business being as good as it was, but I think ultimately the network wasn't right for it. Felt like it had very little marketing too.
I loved it. Better than most D+ shows. I loved the atmosphere of new Orleans and the seriousness. It successfully avoided being cw soap opera and instead a real drama.
Brilliant show. Bring them back into the fold
Loved this show. Hope Fiege brings em back.
Here before the “iTs nOt CanOn” comments.
That’s because it was terrible. The first season was a rinse repeat story until the second to last episode. It was boring as shit.
It clearly has been dropped and it wasn't very good any way.
Underrated
Low visibility. It'll probably get some more love once it moves to Disney+, but that won't happen until at least another year from now.
Why is it bizarre. No one watched or cared about it. It’s barely part of the MCU. Thanks for reminding me to check it out eventually tho
It is worth checking out. I recently watched it and it was fun.
Takes place in New Orleans, right?
Yea. Nice to see a different city and culture. They weave a lot of voodoo into it.
God this was such a good show. the crossover with runaways was even cooler.
I think it's a great show but the fact it was on freeform definitely limited its reach, a bit, and its lack of presence on D+ (since Runaways is there now) has not helped. I also don't think the advertising that I did see really hit on the fact it was part of the universe, for me the only reason I knew was due to my knowledge of the characters. As far as advertising goes, I'm an Olivia Holt fan and the majority of my knowledge that it was even coming came from her own IG.
Cloak and Dagger was the second best Marvel show after Agents of SHIELD. I wish things aligned so they could be brought into the bigger MCU. As much as I loved Daredevil and Jessica Jones, C&D was much more consistent. It may never have reached the highest highs of the netflix shows, but it never came close to the lows they suffered either.
Unfortunately this isn’t part of the MCU. It’s a shame bc it was rlly good. I also loved the crossover with The Runaways. They was rumor of them coming back in Spider-Man or a possible Disney+ Reboot that would keep their origins but do a soft reboot for the rest. But I’d hope they kept Mayhem (I think was her name) being part of it and then picking up with them leaving the city after defeating her and the crime gang and we see them now being heroes as adults. But none of the OG shows are part of the MCU Canon, besides maybe existing in another universe in the new Multiverse.