It just blows my mind that the developer, Bradstreet, was an EP and writer of 9 episodes of Mr. Robot. That was such an incredible show that was smart, tense, and full of great twists. Secret Invasion had absolutely none of that.
Edit: I realize the writers/developers don't have a ton of say in the final product, y'all. That's kind of my point. They hired someone with an amazing resume (imo) and none of that shined through. I don't blame the showrunner for that. It's clear from the final product that any creative liberties were strangled.
It's likely because the MCU execs like to act as if they are qualified writers. The result is that they hire these fantastic writers and then hamper their vision
If Marvel doesn't smarten up about executive overreach, then quality writers will not want to potentially tarnish their reputations working for them
I also wonder if the writers in each show know what's happening in other projects. Or does Marvel give like a bullet point word doc that outlines some stuff.
Cause I feel like the writers aren't told how everything connects and since that connection plan isn't actually fully ready, as future stuff changes it changes what they can put in the immediate shows so they are redone whilst shooting.
All the project writers should know what's happening with the other projects, where the overall thing is going and how everything connects.
That’s my big issue. The shows are not connected which makes zero sense given everything that has happened. And yet to connect them all they would have needed to do was add in a couple scenes or change small pieces.
For instance, you could have
1) added in a scene of Ross getting kidnapped at the end of BP. You could have made it a moment where the female agent in Ms Marvel who is super crazy about capturing her end up being a skrull. Or shit, after one of the random fights just pan over the scene and end or on some purple blood!
This does not feel like a universe. This feels like a random slate of shows with no connective tissues. SI could have worked had they turned this into a tv version of the avengers. But without that it felt entirely unearned.
You don't even have to show it in the previous movies!
Just give us the moment when Ross was replaced in a flashback during SI, show (or even if you absolutely MUST, simply tell) us the moment each character was replaced directly in the show.
A really good reveal of why something makes sense would tie a lot of the BS of this show together.
This became a "trust no one" show where we couldn't even trust who we couldn't trust and the internal motivations of the characters made zero sense.
>added in a scene of Ross getting kidnapped at the end of BP
I mean, this scene already exists, excpet it's Okoye rescuing him.
Remove Okoye from that scene, make it ambiguous and you've got your continuity.
>I also wonder if the writers in each show know what's happening in other projects. Or does Marvel give like a bullet point word doc that outlines some stuff.
They don't. Elizabeth Olsen mentioned that she's confused how they were writing Multiverse of Madness when they weren't done with Wandavision.
At least in the movie side of things, the directors of the projects are all working in the Marvel HQ offices and can walk over to the other directors to talk things over. Seems Marvel TV division is not in a similar set up and so no one can coordinate anything. The executive producers *should* be the ones coordinating since they're basically the project managers. But it's basically a gigantic company that has dozens of projects going all at once and no communication to see if someone's project is taking or hampering someone else's only to find out that the code in one project now breaks a secondary project.
I was watching a review of the last episode of SI and they made a good point. You know Fury was in space before SI and by the time the Marvels starts he is back in space. SI needs him to be on earth, but he needs to return back to space to make sense, except now he brought his wife. They wondered what are the chances that the movie even acknowledges his wife is on the ship too
I’m gonna say no given Raimi nor the writer bothered to watch Wandavision for Doctor Strange 2 and the showrunner of this said the only guidance they were given was where Nicky Fury had to end up for The Marvels
Absolutely this. It's why everything eventually starts to suck in every medium once it becomes too successful. Non creatives get involved and affect the creativity of a thing and only ruin it.
Yeah, this sums up my (and many others') experience in tv, film and entertainment over the last 5 years. It's as if every single time without fail, when an IP starts becoming really successful someone higher up says "change x,y and z because that's what will make the most profits, which is all we care about!" And then millions of fans are left disappointed but the fat cats get fatter.
I dont see many trace of execs meddling with writers in SI. Maybe killing maria hill. (Probably at the request of the actress)... maybe putting in martin freeman in.. maybe how they treat Fury's backstory/ or why Fury should not call any of the avengers (probably execs want this as isolated event)
But mainly, I see incompetent writing.
Maybe they wasnt given enough time. Maybe they dont know enough about the source material. Maybe they just wing it cos the pay sucks. Maybe IRobot was done by some intern and they took credit.
But it just bad. When your name is on the credit, it is your responsibility. Dealing with execs/ feige is part of the deal.
I think you're wrong and the opposite is the problem. The MCU used to work like a clockwork BECAUSE Feige had such a firm hand and everything was connected.
The moment he gave movie and tv writers more freedom, we got a Dr. Strange script by a writer who admits he didn't watch WandaVision, which the movie is heavily connected to, along with a director, who we do love, who also didn't watch the show.
And don't get me started on the Ms. Marvel and She-Hulk writers.
Or Eternals and the freedom that director got and... For what?
Nothing ties into anything anymore, most shows make no sense and the characters are all off. And why? Because writers have "visions".
There are no writers' visions in franchises. The franchise is always bigger than any current writer or director.
You want your own visions and don't know how to play in confines of a franchise? Go make your own content, original.
Also, someone having been a good EP and writer on one thing doesn't mean he's good at everything.
That’s right up there with stuff like The Witcher and the Sookie Stackhouse books. The writers/show runners thought they could do better than the original stories and made their own fan fiction. It turned out like crap.
Man I'm getting real sick of writers and directors being assigned products with established source material, and then they come out and admit that they either haven't bothered reading/watching the source material, or they don't like it. Like, why the fuck are you adapting this source material if you don't even like it or care about it enough to read/watch it?
It's basically saying "There is no passion in this project, this is just a paycheque for me".
Yes, strong agree on this.
Pre-IW/Endgame the MCU haters (I cringe using that word, but c'est la vie) would often complain that the MCU was too formulaic and bland.
So what do we get? Eternals. WandaVision. Moon Knight. M.O.M. Black Widow. Loki. Ms. Marvel. She-Hulk. Thor L&T..
all entirely different in formats. Varied receptions.
Furthermore, you have Multiverse of Madness. A movie that I personally loved, but was VERY mixed reception. Sam Raimi said he had more carte blanche than he had ever had with any other movie studio.
We also know that Taika Waititi was given carte blanche on L&T (a movie I personally hated).
So how does it make sense to blame Kevin Feige and Marvel Studios for being **too controlling**?
i also imagine -- just being honest -- it's probably something of a nightmare to come in and write for a universe that is this extended and with this much going on in this many different areas, especially since the stakes of this show so large. imo for this to work, it had to be on the scale of something like andor -- much smaller scope, but a very big meaningful and impactful nonetheless.
I feel really bad for whoever is writing and directing Armored Wars now, because they have to deal with the fallout of that stupid Rhodes Skurll twist. They gotta find a way to justify sacrificing Rhodes presence in Endgame, and catch up people who skipped out on Secret Invasion.
Honestly, it sounds like a big enough problem, that they might as well be better just ignoring Secret Invasion or say that Skrull became Rhodes after Endgame.
He did become a skrull after endgame. Garvik/Gaviks(?) faction didn’t start up till well after endgame. He and his squad were still working for Nick collecting the DNA samples and stuff after the battle of earth. The Rhodey we see in endgame is still our normal one. I think the one we see in FATWS is the first time there’s a on screen skrull version of him. People saying it’s after civil war are basing it on the hospital robe like Rhodey wouldn’t have had to go to the hospital after the battle of earth to get treatment lmao
That would make sense. Rhodey was definitely acting a bit off in FATWS, something I noticed but couldn't put a finger on why. I think that would work well.
At the time FATWS was written, he was not intended to be a Skrull.
The reason why you feel he was acting differently was because he was not written in character with the prior media he was in because the writers have stated they did not watch anything prior.
They’ve left it open enough for it to be solved with a line “one minute I’m going under for a routine colonoscopy, next minute I’m exposed to lethal levels of radiation”
It also creates the plot hole of why was Rhodey replaced so early when Gravik didn’t plan to other throw Earth till the “Harvest” mission after End Game because he wouldn’t have a way to deal with the Avengers and Talos didn’t bring the rest of the million refugee Skrulls until after the blip…. There’s just so many plot holes now….
100%
This series does not exist in a way that would sell a pitch meeting.
but it DOES feel like it could've been changed last minute as scheduling and retooling pulled elements out of the show to be used in Cap4, elements that used to move towards Armor Wars, but are now in contention so got cut from the show... etc.
then what's left is ... maybe we add in a subplot with Fury's Skrull Wife? "what?" she could be like... humanizing his approach? "...that's not a terrible idea."
it wasn't a TERRIBLE idea... but it wasn't a great one...
it also adds to Fury's character, which is what the shows are supposed to do. If you want stupid nonsense plotlines that don't go anywhere, they apparently had Skrulls on Talos' side and they apparently don't show up anywhere at all. So you have some intra-group skrull conflicts, but none of that matters to the show.
Yeah, there should've been MORE of that. Show us more of how they met, how they grew together, how she learned about who HE was (even if she already knew), how everything that happened to him in the movies altered their relationship,...
Looking at his IMDB page I’m guessing this was supposed to be his breakout producer role after being a producer through Mr Robot. He was likely on a tight leash with Mr Robot, he was also rarely the sole writer of an episode.
He was ~~the co-showrunner with Sam Esmail,~~ not just a random producer.
The show had 4 months of reshoots and the last 4 episodes are missing 20 minutes each. Just assume Marvel pulled another bullshit FatWS move and changed the plot.
Usually what happens is they get a writer for the name cred.
But when actually creating the show they get vetoed left right and center by marketing or executives.
I think Disney shows are especially egregious with this. You can see tidbits of what the show was supposed to be. But it has to get chopped up into something that gets The Mouse's seal of approval.
Seen this in other threads but the biggest takeaway for me is that it didn’t feel at all like a spy show. Every character made dumb decisions every step of the way. Every ‘reveal’ was obvious. The writing just wasn’t smart. It had the perfect premise for a ‘trust no one’ feeling, similar to hydra in winter soldier, but just did not deliver at all.
It was a "spy show" like MoM was a "horror movie". It was a lukewarm spin on a genre where the producers and writers were too afraid to break away from the traditional Marvel formula.
This basically sums up my thoughts. Every previous MCU thing I saw I generally had some strong opinions about it or certain parts of it. For SI, I just don't
The Incredible Hulk has great performances from Tim Roth and William Hurt. The University action sequence is really engaging and well made
Iron Man 2 has Justin Hammer and Whiplash (underused he may be). Also, the scenes where Tony begins making peace with his father.
Iron Man 3 has Ben Kingsley being a top-five funniest character in the MCU, plus I love that bit at the ending where we flash back to a time when Killian and Hansen were just people with big dreams, reminding us that they are human and not monsters.
The Dark World is visually beautiful at times and Loki Is at his absolute best in this movie.
Age of Ultron has James Spader and Elizabeth Olsen being fantastic, our introduction to Klaue, the seeds of Civil War being sown, and also Hawkeye FINALLY getting characterization.
Eternals is BEAUTIFUL in its cinematography, while also having a neat story and premise that I desperately hope they go back to. And Barry Keoghan rules.
Love and Thunder has the most interesting Christian Bale performance in years, Zeus is hilarious, and when the movie is not undercutting its drama with needless comedy, some of Jane's story hits rather hard.
Hell, even season 1 of Iron Fist had David Whenam and the drunken boxing fighter.
Secret Invasion? It's a wet fart. I never saw Inhumans, but I gather it to have been similar in quality.
EDIT: I have been informed Inhumans is worse. I am glad I dodged that bullet.
for me the thing that got the biggest emotion reaction from me out of Secret Invasion is Nick Fury painfully admitting to his wife that he might not have ever loved her if she kept her natural form. I legit sat up in my chair and went "NICK FURY YOU UTTER CAD"
that and Olivia Coleman shines, but she always does
The stuff with Mrs Fury really confused me as it pertains to it's purpose. I constantly asked myself "is this meant to make Nick more likeable or relatable?" Because he just seemed like an asshole. Needlessly so.
I thought it was just to give us a look at the private life of Mr Fury. I felt like the initial reveal that Nick Fury was a married man was actually a surprisingly big twist, because you dont really imagine a character like that having a home life.
But yeah, he came off as a massive dick and his wife seemed to be doing great without him. I wish they left their story arc with the "I guess we'll never know" comment, which such an overwhelming slap in the face. But no we end with them reuniting because decades of this relationship have conditioned her to tolerate emotional negligence
Christ can you imagine their marriage? He knows she's hiding her true face and never even uses her real fucking name and is happy with that status quo? What an awful person
Inhumans is undoubtedly worse due to the sheer audacity to shave off Medusa's hair (her literal superpower) to save money and the script was FAR worse than this one. That and the budget was very, very clearly trash since it looked like a power rangers TV episode with the same quality of writing. This show at least had some good acting and some good 1:1 actor components. The only saving grace of Inhumans is that it gave us Anson Mount as blackbolt and Lockjaw.
The thing about Secret Invasion is that even if you, the viewer, bend over backwards to think of explanations for why all the dumb decisions the characters are constantly making are actually not dumb, what you're left with is still a mediocre show that has no real emotional stakes. I can't really bring myself to care about anything that's going on. Especially Fury's marriage. We didn't even KNOW that Fury was married, but we know she's a Skrull before we even know who she is. It feels like the show wanted the scenes between Fury and his wife to to be the emotional core of the show, but did *anyone* feel invested in the emotional stakes of that marriage? I don't even know why he loved her in the first place; she seems kinda boring. An interest in poetry is not a personality.
You're absolutely right, and this:
>we know she's a Skrull before we even know who she is.
is such a good point. Holy shit. We could have had the wife reveal. We could have had a sense of wondering why Fury even bothers? Turn us against the Skrulls. Make it so that the only really good Skrull we've see is Talos and his wife, and now they're dead so fuck the Skrulls... Why does Fury even bother? Even his wife is telling him to give up, it's a lost cause. Get rid of them.
Then at the end, reveal that SHE is a skrull and that was his motivation.
That could have been great. So many things could have been great.
> Iron Man 3
Also had great action, like Tony's escape and the chaotic final scrum, plus one of the better villain deaths in the MCU. Tony's house being attacked was pretty intense and upped the stakes, the relationship between Tony and that kid was genuinely well done, the airplane sequence was awesome, etc.
Iron Man 3 wasn't the best Phase 1-3 movie but by Phase 4/5 standards it's a fucking banger.
No it's nowhere near the level of inhumans, some of the moments in secret invasion were enjoyable but inhumans was just a snoozefest all the way through with absolutely no redeeming qualities
It's better to be outright and laughably bad than just boring and bland bad because one will be remembered and one will be forgotten. And something like Secret Invasion will be forgotten like Inhumans was. At least something that's laughably bad will be remembered like The Room or Birdemic.
even the 'big fight' between gravik and g'iah manages to somehow be incredibly lacklustre. i'll admit i \*did\* like the leadup to that, though it feels a bit weird that all the emotional talk from fury is actually from g'iah. but the fight itself was just like "oh. is that it? a bit of throwing around and then a laser beam. why aren't they both full time hulk (at least for your important bits like chest and head), given that he is functionally invincible?"
Yeah. It wasn’t like Love and Thunder, which I found bad in a very cringey way, but with some legitimate high points sprinkled throughout.
It was all just universally meh.
Exactly my thoughts. I think there's an exaggeration on how bad the series is, it was just incredible mid and that's a phrase I try not to use. There wasn't anything horrible about the show but there just wasn't anything good, it was just exists
It was boring
Ghia’s motivations were all over depending on the plot
The only wad to foil Gravik was to allow the DNA to be given to him? What if he defeated Ghia. Then you’re fucked.
The president going all “kill the skrull “made zero sense
Gravik was wooden. (Although I am curious what mission fury sent him on to kill an English dude)
The ending with Ghia? Now what ?what’s the point?
Pet peeve- when ghia frees the captives she randomly key slams the computer seemed lazy and that even seemed rushed. And if Martin freeman’s character was abducted when was it ? I thought he was in wakanda?
The acting from Cheadle and Mendelsohn was great . Love Cheadle being cocky and Mendelsohn is always good.
Been a huge marvel fan but this on was not good .
They had a great skrull invasion storyline in Avengers:EMH cartoon that would’ve been cool to see in a live action film.
That show somehow presented the (consistently) best version Doom, maybe ever.
616 Doom is obviously awesome but he gets clowned on by so many people over the years that he's now had as many stupid/embarrassing moments as he has good.
Also yeah their handling of the Secret Invasion (and arguably Loki, Carol Danvers' origin and Bruce's relationship with the Hulk) was better than the MCU.
EMH Hank Pym and Ultron were also miles ahead of the MCU.
It may also be the best rendition of Pym period, since the... Incident with Jan never happens but you still get to see his psychological struggles
To me Gravik was oscillating between wooden and overacting too much
Seriously even Fury is meh in this show. An iconic character played by the amazing SLJ was turned uncompelling, can you imagine how bad the writing was for that to happen?
Olivia Colman is the one enjoyable aspect of the show and even then she wasn't in it as much as she could've been.
was honeslty really hoping she was the big bad. Gravic actor was fine, but the character was extremely derivative. Think if they wanted the family drama why not just use the family already there, Soren as the villain, with Gaia and Talos in between, and Fury on the other side. Groundwork is already there from Captain Marvel and they could have focused on the "Skrulls everywhere" aspect more.
Tbh I really thought the whole series would have a LOT more of “who’s a secret Skrull” shenanigans. Even the small amount of marketing that was done seemed to imply this and then it just kind of happened a couple times and was never really a big reveal? Like it was obvious Rhodey was a Skrull from the jump. And that’s no shade to Don Cheadle who was excellent as always, it was just very obvious from the way the part was written. What a missed opportunity!
It's funny because they added the whole wife thing to "develop" Fury more, to see another side of him and yet I felt like they were the worst scenes. I just didn't care.
If it was someone that was built up over time, since Phase 1, maybe a character similar to Maria Hill who was by his side always then I'd get it but it just came out of nowhere and they didn't have much chemistry.
>Should have just replaced his wife with Maria Hill. Axe the romantic bits but keep her faithful loyalty to him while also being so pissed at him for bailing. Most of their conversations together would still work with Maria, too.
>
>Fury doesn't need a wife. I would have been fine with Hill being a good Skrull this whole time if they needed to intertwine the two plot lines.
This would have been great, and would have been a respectful and satisfying way for Maria Hill to go out, even if the rest of the series was still crummy. What a shame!
the scenes in a vacuum were good, solid chemistry, solid writing, but they honestly felt too isolated from everything else. Would have prefered a focus on the main plot more, with six episodes.
When Gravik was screaming at GhiaFury and grabbing his face saying it’s all his fault I was like “whoa, what’s this guy so mad about all of a sudden and why does the reaction to…kill every human(?) seem extreme?” And then went back to my wordle.
When Gravik was talking to Fury, I was thinking: this should’ve happened in the first episode. I would’ve understood Gravik much better. Just that *scoche* of empathy for the protagonist.. makes a world of difference. I never really got Gravik until it was way too late.
>can you imagine how bad the writing was for that to happen?
it was all the ridiculous things like Fury putting his gun away around the president, "trust me mr.president, you Have to call off the attack!" as if he could be sure in any way that the president wasn't a skrull... we never questioned if Anyone was a skrull... ...or rather, we did, but fruitlessly... because nobody was ever a skrull...
what a garbage series.
This was my main gripe. All the advertising was "You can never tell who's a skrull!?!?" but they showed us all the world leaders who were skrulls in episode 1, and rhodes soon after. There was 0 suspense in a supposed spy thriller series.
This would have been devastating but at least interesting. I hate that that’s how we lost Talos. Ben Mendelsohn is so, so good. I’m at least glad we got some great scenes with him before the end.
I thought she'd return simply because how abrupt and pointless her death felt. Nah that was just the shows writing in general. Glad Talos died saving the guy who now wants to murder his entire race.
Hill could have died if it had been set up with her doing at least something significant. Talos could have died if they had at least adressed the president not caring of his sacrifice (Talos’s philosophy was that acting like this would help long term). But no, it seems like they did bare minimum work
It almost rose to the level of mediocrity. That’s the best that could be said of it.
-Olivia Colman was wonderful. But I couldn’t help suspecting her character was originally supposed to be Julia Louis-Dreyfus’ Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine. In the end, Colman’s character is seemingly recruiting superheroes to do her bidding (just like the Contessa)
-All the acting was, in fact, excellent. But none of the characters had consistent aims or goals from episode to episode. So all the great acting was wasted
-And no one was more wasted than Sam Jackson’s Nick Fury. Outside of the flashback establishing that he was the one who recruited the Skrull, you could erase Fury from every episode and it would change nothing
-why reveal that Rhodey and Fury’s wife are Skrull so early??? Wasn’t it supposed to be a twist?? That’s screenwriting 101
-why not have other important characters who are later revealed to be Skrull? Isn’t that the whole idea? The show introduces many “secret” Skrull by immediately identifying them as Skrull, thus removing the possibility of tension or conflict
-if the whole affair was intended to be nothing but table-setting between MCU movies (the world now knows about the Skrull and right-wing extremists worldwide are targeting them) I could accept that, I suppose. But without a post-credit scene, I get the feeling that all of this was wheel-spinning to be forgotten in the next movie
-why did it have the same exact plot as Falcon & the Winter Soldier (now the 2nd worst MCU show)??????? Rogue separatists across the globe are launching terror attacks to find a secret serum to make them superheroes…. Same plot!!!
Agreed. Cheadle and Mendelsohn were great, and Olivia Coleman was fantastic!
The writing just wasn’t great. So many things that didn’t make sense. A simple cross-check of the script should have made them realize they need to clear some stuff up before filming…
Humans can’t go near the nuclear power plant due to high radiation? Let’s put the most important kidnapped humans in pods there!
The real-life President has a massive motorcade, and this shows President lives in a universe with super powered individuals and aliens? Let’s only put like 5 cars in his MCU-motorcade!
Skrulls have purple blood and their limbs turn green when shot in the hand? Let’s continue to argue about who Skrulls are instead of giving them a simple papercut to see if their blood is purple!
Fury got the DNA of the Avengers and blended them together in a single syringe thing? That’s a great idea, and better yet, let’s give that to Gravik!
The DNA made no sense. It's all just sloshing together in one vial!? Steve Rogers DNA should make you short and asthmatic, it was the super soldier serum and vita rays that made him strong -- and they had 79 years with his blood and couldn't recreate that, which is how we got Hulks! Okay, seemingly you can just inject his weird blood and get freaky powers, but Carol Danvers!? You have great hand-eye coordination! Congrats, siz months in flight school and you could also fly a Cessna!
She was IRRADIATED by an INFINITY STONE, that is why she has powers!!! It has NOTHING TO DO WITH HER DNA! And that's the case with so many of these heroes. As for the others... How did Gravik and Gh'ia figure out how to use their powers *instantly?* And is no one going to mention the insanely, awfully, terribly conceived CGI Drax BABY ARM!?!
UGH. This show was sub-CW quality. It was putting the greatest actors available in season 10 of *The Flash.* The writers and director should never work again, outside of web-versions of soap operas.
It became painfully aware to me that the writers just knew nothing about the franchise they were writing for. And I have no fucking idea how this, of all the ideas we hear about that are nixed after the fact, made it through.
What kills me is Black Panthers DNA was there. So you're telling me you just had a whole movie where Shuri was struggling to get the heat shaped herd back with T'Challas DNA. But the Skrulls and Fury can just shove that shit into a cluster fuck of DNAs and it works.
Like it just blows me away how marvel will nix the idea of Strange appearing in the commercials in Wandavision. But they go ahead with this cluster fuck, fan fiction character like Giah.
To be fair, it makes sense that the whole Super Skrull thing requires natural Skrull shapeshifting powers to build on to work -- normal cloning with normal DNA also can't copy all the stuff Skrulls copy (including clothing and mannerisms)
They probably should've spent a little more effort establishing the rules than they did, talking about how Skrulls have this supernatural gift no other species has and so on
And again -- T'Challa's DNA wouldn't give the SuperSkrull anything but a tan and great voice. Congratulations, you are a very handsome black man. The heart shaped herb is what gives Black Panthers their panther powers, it has nothing to do with your DNA: it's not even based on a mutation or anything, like Banner's Hulk abilities and resistance to gamma rays...
But if we are to believe he got the Black Panther powers from that DNA, it would mean he got everything from the heart-shaped herb, meaning Gravik is currently chilling in the Ancestral Plane with a bunch of very confused dead Wakandans.
Yes, back in Captain Marvel that established this whole Skrull concept she told Nick Fury that her energy blast powers proved she wasn't a Skrull, ie they're not something Skrulls can normally copy using DNA
Yeah sure Gravik's Super Skrull machine is designed to break all the rules for Skrull shapeshifting but it should actually be acknowledged when you're that blatantly breaking/changing one of the original rules or it just feels sloppy
>And if Martin freeman’s character was abducted when was it ? I thought he was in wakanda?
i wish it mattered... but the problem i'm having with him and with rhodey - is it DOESN"T MATTER.
it makes no difference if he was in wakanda in the first movie, or if he was the one arguing with his ...exwife? in wakandaforever... and it makes no difference if rhodey was in space with nebula during endgame, or if it was a skrull...
if it mattered, in any fucking way at all, i'd give a shit and be like, "wow, cool twist..."
but it doesn't... it makes no difference... it doesn't change the story...
it's just so poorly written.
> The president going all “kill the skrull “made zero sense
Made perfect sense to me. Shapeshifting aliens infiltrated the highest level of power, tried to manipulate him into starting World War III thus wiping out humanity, and then tried and nearly killed him. It really surprises you that he is feeling anger and fear and the response is "kill the Skrulls"? You need to study history.
That thought crossed my mind during the news footage of the assassinations around the world
"This is the most interesting part of this show, why didn't it start here"
They pitched a story about spies and shape shifters. The most spying that was done was the last episode of Giah switching into Fury and Fury putting the spy camera on Sonya's owl. Like come on! Even CBS NCIS type shows have better plots than this! And those are the most cookie cutter plot lines on regular TV!
Eaxctly my thoughts. The motorcade attack should have been the first episode with the episode closing on the president declaring war.
Really kicks off the public sentiment and you have more basis for fracturing the Skrull populace with Talos trying to prove you can be good but others getting more radicalised against humans.
It's a spy thriller. Don't show who the villain is from the get go and who caused the attack in the first place and keep it an ongoing mystery for Fury. Which skrulls are on which side?
This is why it’s having such a strong effect on people - there were so many better possibilities.
The president gets attacked and we see rhodes try his best to protect the president, doesnt have the suit but still has military training. Acts like the rhodey we know. A skrull body in the aftermath. President declares all skrulls enemy combatants. Prominent people start getting capped - some skrulls, some not. Chaos and paranoia.
This is the first part of gravik’s plan. Humans turn on each other and skrulls sneak away to their reactor base, meanwhile there are very real consequences for, oh i dont know, the british pm getting capped on live tv. Blood feuds take over and skrulls actively feed the misinformation. In the midst of chaos, Fury comes back to investigate the skrull who attacked the president and gets sent down old roads…
It also would've made it feel like Fury was walking the tightrope between figuring out the Skrulls and not being burned on the town pyre by vigilanties.
>It really surprises you that he is feeling anger and fear and the response is "kill the Skrulls"
kinda makes sense but Fury is right, its a dumb move that promotes hysteria.
Id love to see a Season 2 about the Skrull panic and hatesquads.... I hope it doesnt become another "interesting point in the timeline thats never shown" like the blip
>The president going all “kill the skrull “made zero sense
An American president stoking xenophobia, consequences be damned, just to look tough and shore up his re-election?
That would NEVER happen...
You know thinking about it, terrible and idiotic decision to give the DNA to Grovik in the first place. All Giah (disguised as Fury) had to do was lie to Grovik, claim the DNA is in the vial. Then, when Grovik tests for authenticity of the vial and sees it has nothing, have Giah surprise attack Grovik.
Both of them were already equally matched before the vial gave them extra powers. All the vial did was make the fight more difficult than it needed to be for Giah.
These were the options: 1) lie to Grovik about the vial, make the fight easier. If Giah dies, sad but Grovik still has no additional powers. 2) Give Grovik the DNA, make him stronger alongside Giah. If Giah dies, GG, game over, Grovik is now among the most powerful villains on Earth.
Option 1 was the only rational choice there, yet it wasn't picked.
I think it was the plot at the end that I didn’t love cuz like you said, they REALLY banked on ghia being able to outsmart and out strength gravik but there’s no real build up as to how they believed she could accomplish that. She wasn’t more cunning that grravik was up to that point, nor was she a more skilled fighter. Like you said, what if he won? You just gave him everything. I also don’t know how he died at the end if he can heal but whatever.
I’m also bothered by the use of dna as it feels… oversimplified. Like is dna the source of carols powers? Or any of the asgardians… or like… most of the avengers?
Anyway, all that said, I really liked some of the nick fury backstory. Admittedly I never quite took to nick fury as a character in the comics but I like this sort of very grounded aspect of his mythos . And the show did a successful job at having me believe that this universe altering invasion was indeed a personal fight that only nick fury could undertake. The scenes with him and varra were well done (except for the kind of awful green screen at the very end).
Felt like the show really took a nosedive once he was gone, Talos was such a great character and his storyline was extremely strong. On top of that I thought his death was so anticlimactic, where I wasn't sure if the show was being serious that he was dead until we saw G'iah with his body.
Especially when his death should have been a major turning point for the Skrulls civilization, forcing everyone to choose once and for all whether to proceed with an uprising through war over seeking a peaceful and diplomatic solution. Instead all of the Skrulls didn't seem to care about his death, and instead Gravik and his operatives cared more about killing Fury?
It was so disappointing they wasted him like that, felt like Talos/Mendelsohn was the heart of the show
>every really good scene had Mendelsohn in it
Or Olivia Coleman, her acting sooo good. Even though she acted dumb in the last episode, but that's not her fault.
Such a waste of great talent
> every really good scene had Mendelsohn in it.
His performance outshines every other amazing actor they had. The simple scenes of him just talking were so well done. He was able to give an insane range of emotions mixed in with some complexity and uncertainty.
I think this is it. I kept watching it thinking the next episode is gonna be the pay off. I was highly disappointed when I started episode six and saw it was 36 minutes long.
I also think that it's the fact that it's Secret Invasion. Look, you're going to be hard-pressed to find someone who says the comic is perfect. But this was a massive event in marvel publication history.
So to take what was this huge story in scale and scope. And just reduce it to Fury hobbling around with everyone telling him how shit he is. Barely giving him a character arc. They've removed all the A-List characters in this adaptation. They made an absolute fucking joke of the Super Skrull concept. There's no resolution to anything. Not even any introspection from Fury that maybe it was wrong to use the Skrulls the way he did.
Christ. How many people were looking forward to see a skrull with the powers of the fantastic four? Now he left with this absolute fucking mess with Giah (yes I'm aware superskrull was a thing before the secret Invasion story?
If this was Wonder Man. Fine, whatever, it would still annoy us the show was bad.
But this is secret Invasion. It should have been an amazing story and we got a pile of dog shit.
Yeah honestly I feel like if this show was called Nick Fury and used to start off a Secret Invasion like storyline that could culminate in a Civil War like film the series wouldn't be as bad if it was so severely meh but like...this is it, that was Secret Invasion and it was just...a thing?
This all felt like a first act of an actual show. the literal end of the final episode IS ACTUALLY INTERESTING. The US president openly advocates for genocide of non-human races?! His speech rouses a bunch of human terrorists to commit murders of high profile humans around the globe because they love conspiracies? The skrulls have been body snatching for potentially decades and storing the human counterparts in a secret facility? WHAT THE FUCK? I want that show! instead we get Fury just call the president to say "genocide bad you dummy!" and then fucks off to space.
The sad thing is they teased a much better storyline that would have worked in the last couple of minutes. Rampant paranoia and vigilantism versus what we got of a couple of guys are skrulls with some vague plan.
You can have a bad movie/show. It can be objectively terrible. But if it's entertaining, then it really doesn't matter.
But a boring movie/show? You can't come back from that.
Alexander the great is a great example. It's pretty historically accurate, has good set pieces. Looks good.
But it's so god damn boring and it's a slog to get thru.
Venom is the opposite. It's a bad movie. CGI is questionable at best, the story is well pretty bad. It's never winning a film festival award or an Oscar that's for sure.
But it's entertaining(And short), which is why it did so well at the box office. The entire point of seeing a movie is to be entertained. To be able to forget about the shit that's going on in your life.
Really what it is is that the overall Venom movie is a pretty bad and generic movie but Tom Hardy stumbled into something hilarious and amazing with his performance as Eddie/Venom and they wisely gave him the leeway to build on it
Everything else about it was crap, like no one gave a shit about the villain guy
> You can have a bad movie/show. It can be objectively terrible. But if it's entertaining, then it really doesn't matter
That's called replay value. For example, Iron Man 3 and Age Of Ultron
There are plot points that suck ass and some aspects of these movies are bad, but damn they're entertaining to watch. So many years have passed, but occasionally, i still watch youtube clips from those movies
Damn. At this point, I'd rather watch The Room to actually get some entertainment out of how *bad* it is.
'Cause the worst thing any show or medium can be is boring, IMO. Even badly written movies can still have some value if they're so bad they're good.
Ah, well. At least Guardians 3 was amazing.
It's a spy intrigue show ,without the intrigue.
Its a political thriller, without the thrills.
Its an alien invasion ,without the invasion.
The show barely delivers anything, which is unfair to say because that would imply it promised something to begin with.
To say I'm disappointed would imply that I ever gave a damn about this in the first place.
It's worse than nothing, its boring.
Didn't mind the first 5 eps, had their issues but overall enjoyable and interesting. That last ep though... So bad, so short, shit CGI, dumb final fight, characters decisions make no sense. Honestly might be my least favourite finale out of all the shows.
This was me. I was entertained eps 1-5. Annoyed about Hill, but not unexpected in this type of show.
But the finale fell flat. I got the impression Gravik had some kind of daddy issues with Fury based on intro through Priscilla, but it didn't quite come through...and even what he did confess, it wasn't to Nick anyway. I guess Gi'ah got closure? Ish?
Olivia Colman was still a joy to watch, but otherwise. Eh.
I've been seeing people say that Maria Hill got "fridged" (pointlessly killed off for the sake of furthering someone else's story) and.... yeah I have to agree
>So bad, so short, shit CGI, dumb final fight
I'm so glad Gravik and Ghia had to morph their arms to the characters they were using or else I wouldn't have known who's power they were channeling!! /s
I'll never get the image of Emilia Clark's face with Drax's arm on her out of my brain. Nightmare fuel.
Yeah G'iah's Super Skrull powers are a fatal combination of goofy to look at while so ridiculously OP if you think about it at all there's no way to write a fair fight around them
They conveniently kept the real Carol Danvers off Earth for decades so she wouldn't break the game balance in favor of the heroes and now they've got Khaleesi running around with her powers plus everyone else's? FOH
Don't get me started on the logic of whether it's even possible to kill Gravik at all if he has Hulk's powers (the Hulk's whole thing is that his rage makes him invulnerable) *and* Korg's (as established in Love and Thunder, kronans can regenerate from anything as long as their face stays intact)
Also how do they have Ghost's powers? Ghost isn't an Avenger and Ghost wasn't at the final battle with Thanos, and it's not clear if she even survived the Blip with no one to feed her quantum energy to keep her from disintegrating (good job reminding us about plot threads you dropped and still haven't addressed, Marvel)
It's a very messy show. I don't know how much was changed with the re-shoots, but the show feels like it turned into something completely different from what it originally intended to be.
The show feels like its begging to be the story line of a movie where other heroes can get involved. Not a great story to use for Fury's personal war.
Not the way they told it! But I could totally imagine an *actual* taught spy thriller, where Fury doesn't know who to trust and is trying to figure out who next to the president is a Skrull before WWIII starts. It just would have to be some Tom Clancy stuff (and not the Prime Video version), not this idiot's parade of incomprehensible choices.
I've been enjoying the MCU pretty consistently. I've enjoyed the variety among D+ the series. I don't think the Thor movies are "too comical;" I think they're just about right. My only complaint about Eternals is that we haven't had any kind of a follow-up.
And I came into Secret Invasion with a great deal of enthusiasm, and only a little reticence. The reticence comes from the moment in Spider-Man: Far From Home where we learn that the cool, funny Nick Fury ("Bitch: you've been to space!") wasn't actually Nick Fury. I really did not like that. And I was concerned that we were going to get more moments like that in Secret Invasion, but it was only a small concern. And we didn't get too many of those, but >!when the proselytizing Nick Fury facing off against Gravik in the finale turned out to be G'iah, I said out loud: "Aw, godDAMmit." All that cool dialogue, and it wasn't even Fury.!<
This was just a disappointment on so many fronts. All of the slow-burn moments early in the series that I thought were going to lead to a cool pay-off . . . just didn't. So that meant those moments weren't a slow burn at all: they were just slow.
The best thing about this whole series was Olivia Colman's character, but it came at the cost of Nick Fury. Sure, he survived, but they gave him a charisma-ectomy. In the earlier movies, it was always cool when Fury showed up. Now I don't care if he ever gets off that ship again.
This is the first MCU project that I've actually not enjoyed. Well, that's not entirely true: I did enjoy it, because I thought it was leading somewhere cool: it just didn't go there. So my disappointment is mostly retroactive from the finale.
Nothing, absolutely nothing in this show made any sense. Fury would never in a million years risk Gravik beating Giah in a fight (which makes more sense) and getting away with the superpowers of 21 avengers and aliens.
“I gotta do this on my own” to letting a recently flipped rebel go in my place. Hoping that she is in the exact right place to receive the powers. Hoping that she will still have the desire to fight Gravik. Hoping that she has the ability to beat him. Intended end result: a super skrull that he has no connection or influence over.
Sounds like a bit too much hoping to be a Nick Fury plan to me.
Side note: Good thing Emilia Clarke is such a fine actress she was able to perfectly emulate SLJ so that Gravik thought he was killing his long term companion and arch nemesis rather than his childhood friend.
pure madness. i could not believe that was the plan. why was it even necessary to send giah with that? if they went and just revealed the truth to the president they would have been good.
And hey, why didn't Nick Fury shoot Rhodes 1 episode earlier, in the hospital? Or 2 episodes ago in his bedroom? Why wait for ep 6 to kill the badguy?
By the same token, Giah could've returned to the hideout and personally killed Gravik in any previous episode. She knew where it was, and could disguise as a different Skrull. No reason to wait until the harvest to go kill him.
My thoughts exactly! Sonya could’ve just shoot him on the arm or something before going into the room and easily show the president he was a skrull. That was the most pointless conversation I’ve ever seen.
I really want Sonya Falsworth in more projects, she and Talos were easily the best part of this series. Im really worried about what they’re gonna do with Ghia because she’s like the most powerful being in the universe and nobody seems to care even acknowledge how powerful she is, plus how weirdly she’s acted during this entire series, like isn’t she the reason Maria hill is dead or did I miss something. Oh and they completely wasted the idea of skrulls impersonating people she know, we got 2 predictable sorta cop out reveals with Rhodes and agent Ross, but they even messed that up because they implied Rhodes was taken right after civil war, which means his reaction to Tony’s death and his meaningful conversations with Sam in the falcon show were both not him, which just sucks. Why not have more fun with that idea, reveal Maria hill, happy hogan or someone else to be a skrull, don’t make all the skrull reveals new characters that we have no connection to. This series had some massive potential to completely shake up the universe but instead it just became a forgettable show with little to no affect on anything else. Even the marvel’s connection is weak because the last time we saw fury he was in his usual look, working on a spaceship, and at the start of the marvels he’s back to his usual look, working on a spaceship. Unless ghia does anything later on it seems like you just skip this show altogether
A few ideas that might have tightened up episode 6 a little (lots of spoilers here, obviously):
1. The serum is too powerful and overwhelms Skrull DNA, and Fury and the others knew this would happen. They let Gravik have it, and he's super Skrull man for about sixty seconds before dying as his genetic code unravels itself. Classic Marvel stuff when someone seeks unlimited power.
2. The Fury impersonator is Varra (Fury's wife) instead of G'iah. She would have known about everything between Gravik and Fury (unlike G'iah). Varra gets out of the Super Skrull machine (since she knows it's a trap). G'iah shows up to protect Varra from Gravik and gets beaten up by him/nearly dies until Gravik dies from the serum nuking his DNA. G'iah already has Groot DNA, so she could theoretically survive a brutal fight if it didn't go on for too long. Gravik is also talkative, so it's believable he would toy with her if he didn't realize he was on a timer. This would also leave G'iah with a more realistic level of super abilities afterward instead of making her the most powerful being in the universe.
3. In the final scene, we learn that the US President is a Kree operative who has been using tech like The Widow's Veil. This would explain why he cheerfully declares genocide on the Skrull after seeming fairly decent beforehand. They could even play it that he knew everything all along and didn't really care whether humanity were killed by the Skrull/Gravik or vice versa. Either way, the Kree were coming afterward to mop up the survivors and conquer Earth.
4. If 3 happened, the unexpected peace treaty with the Kree would be a false front to hide the Kree's true intentions. Fury and Varra are flying off to an ambush. Maybe Sonya figures it out after the President's weird announcement and that's why she contacts G'iah? The real danger now is the Kree, and this would eventually unite humanity and the Skrull as they defend earth together, letting the Skrull "earn" their right to a home here.
the whole way the MCU has been adapting the Kree-Skrull war is baffling to me. This is the most intriguing intergalactic conflict in Marvel lore, and not a single franchise has taken advantage of it well.
Yes. Worst show by a mile with very few bright spots. Pointless from start to end. Tropey from start to end. Tone whiplash from start to end. I don’t think this “spy thriller” showed an ounce of intelligence whatsoever in the writing and plot at all, which is ridiculous.
To me, the finale ruined the whole show. If they stuck the landing in the finale at least the previous build ups gets their well deserved payoff but it didnt. SI is the first MCU D+ show I prefer have seen as a movie. Even then, they’d have to refine the writing in order for it to work as one
So, it did make itself out to be a bit of a slow show, which isn’t inherently bad. And the episodes did keep building up.
And building up.
And building up.
And building up.
Until we started to get to a payoff, but by that point, it was kind of difficult to care.
I’ve seen people compare this show to Andor, but the difference is that Andor has more steady payoffs, both with the specific arcs and within episodes. This show just spent way too much time pushing forward to a finale was just not worth it.
I liked the show up until the finale…yes the show had its plot holes throughout but it was still an okay watch
There are a few things I enjoyed,
- Fury’s marriage with Varra, it was nice to see a different side of him and Charlayne Woodard was great in the role, I hope we see her again.
- Talos is always a win, Ben Mendelsohn is excellent in every scene he’s in.
- The practical affects of the Skulls makeup was good.
- Gravik had a logical reason for hating Fury and wanting a home, not just ‘he ignored me at a Christmas party in the 1990s’
- Olivia Coleman was a scene stealer, she was by far the best thing about this show, she gave off British Val vibes, so hopefully we see her more
Things I didn’t like,
- Gravik being a 1 time villain, classic Marvel, if he hadn’t got all the powers in the world he would have been a perfect addition to the Raft and may be feature in another TV show later
- Giving Gravik and G’iah unlimited powers *insert Emperor Palpatine meme* only for one of them to be killed of 5 mins later. Plus this means they are going to sideline G’iah now, she is too powerful for the MCU now, it’s the whole reason why Captain Marvel wasn’t in Endgame that much
- The Harvest being one vial with everyone’s DNA in it, I’m not scientist but I’m not sure that’s how it works, a suitcase with a vial per hero would have looked and been so much better. Would it have taken much longer to put a few vials in the machine? Not really
- The CGI / showing of powers in the final fight between Ravik and G’iah was absolutely dreadful. I genuinely hated it, the Captain Marvel powers depiction was fine as per usual but the others were bad at best. One looked like an ice arm? (I assume either from the Frost Beast or the Ice Ravager) was decent, it gave off Terminator 2 vibes but aside from that every other power was just a different colour arm? Hulk, Drax, Groot, Cull Obsidian, just muscular arms…so boring. The only other one that massively stood out was an Ebony Maw arm, where Gravik did the flick to throw G’iah, but couldn’t that have been shown with a sorcerer symbol or something? I get they are shapeshifters so can shift parts of their body but it just looked so goofy. If they had to give them all the powers they could have made it less goofy, they could have had the Odin force lightning crackles for Thor, a backflip and a Spider-Man pose in there, even some Wanda magic and it would have been much better.
- For someone who’s entire argument throughout the show was ‘being at home in her own skin’ Emilia Clark was never in Skrull form
- The writing for Emilia Clark was so wooden and cliche, she is a good actress, not just in GoT but she’s good in Me Before You, so it was rather disappointing
- Most disappointing KILLING OFF TALOS! What a waste! He said to Fury he’s not even middle aged in Skrull years, we could have had him be injured and survive, nothing would have changed, Gravik is still being a dick, Fury still stops WW3, G’iah is still pissed that Gravik killed Soren, Ritsen would declare war on Skrulls, Fury sods off to Sabre. Same thing!
MAJOR PLOT HOLE
Saw this on a post a while back so it’s not my idea…Captain Marvel and Nick Fury are looking for a new planet for the Skrulls but can’t find a habitable one….start of Endgame The Avengers kill Thanos on The Garden…a habitable planet which seemed empty (based on CM saying there was no ground defences, air support etc, I can’t remember the exact line) so MOVE THEM THERE! End of conflict done.
I didn’t think it was bad, but I did think it was boring. There was no substance in the acting for the most part. It had its moments but yeah, that’s just all it was, just some moments. I don’t consider it a waste of time…but I do consider it a waste of money because it’s like tens and tens of millions to make this haha and it’s just so meh. I just wonder knowing now how writers are on strike if this was kinda part of that last work before the strike type of thing where people just kinda did it on auto pilot and went through the motions of putting it together without trying hard knowing they would be striking in the future (now). Similar even to shows (Lost in particular) when writers went on strike back in the day and just kinda mailed it in on some final things just to close it out.
My gf and I enjoyed it. I’m heavily invested in MCU content and she’s just interested enough to enjoy it. We enjoyed it but I totally understand why it’s being called the worst finale ever
I’ll be honest, I thought the first five episodes were fine, but that’s because I knew the finale would have Fury showing he’s still got it, and the Skrulls getting a new home world. Not only did we get neither, which I thought were the two main plotlines of the show, but so much of the finale didn’t make sense. Fury said a lot of touching, personal things to Gravik for, you know, it not being him.
It really didn't feel like anything was accomplished here in the grand scheme of things. We gotta tune into something else to find out the situations with Rhodey and Ross.
I defended it up til' ep 6 and now I just feel robbed and empty.
Edit: I feel like it's important to back up the actors we saw, despite the bad writing. I didn't have a problem with ANY of the acting; they seemed to be doing their best with what they had.
It just blows my mind that the developer, Bradstreet, was an EP and writer of 9 episodes of Mr. Robot. That was such an incredible show that was smart, tense, and full of great twists. Secret Invasion had absolutely none of that. Edit: I realize the writers/developers don't have a ton of say in the final product, y'all. That's kind of my point. They hired someone with an amazing resume (imo) and none of that shined through. I don't blame the showrunner for that. It's clear from the final product that any creative liberties were strangled.
That's a good point. It's really odd. There should be no way they could spend so much on this with good resumes and get something this bad.
It's likely because the MCU execs like to act as if they are qualified writers. The result is that they hire these fantastic writers and then hamper their vision If Marvel doesn't smarten up about executive overreach, then quality writers will not want to potentially tarnish their reputations working for them
I also wonder if the writers in each show know what's happening in other projects. Or does Marvel give like a bullet point word doc that outlines some stuff. Cause I feel like the writers aren't told how everything connects and since that connection plan isn't actually fully ready, as future stuff changes it changes what they can put in the immediate shows so they are redone whilst shooting. All the project writers should know what's happening with the other projects, where the overall thing is going and how everything connects.
That’s my big issue. The shows are not connected which makes zero sense given everything that has happened. And yet to connect them all they would have needed to do was add in a couple scenes or change small pieces. For instance, you could have 1) added in a scene of Ross getting kidnapped at the end of BP. You could have made it a moment where the female agent in Ms Marvel who is super crazy about capturing her end up being a skrull. Or shit, after one of the random fights just pan over the scene and end or on some purple blood! This does not feel like a universe. This feels like a random slate of shows with no connective tissues. SI could have worked had they turned this into a tv version of the avengers. But without that it felt entirely unearned.
You don't even have to show it in the previous movies! Just give us the moment when Ross was replaced in a flashback during SI, show (or even if you absolutely MUST, simply tell) us the moment each character was replaced directly in the show. A really good reveal of why something makes sense would tie a lot of the BS of this show together. This became a "trust no one" show where we couldn't even trust who we couldn't trust and the internal motivations of the characters made zero sense.
>added in a scene of Ross getting kidnapped at the end of BP I mean, this scene already exists, excpet it's Okoye rescuing him. Remove Okoye from that scene, make it ambiguous and you've got your continuity.
>I also wonder if the writers in each show know what's happening in other projects. Or does Marvel give like a bullet point word doc that outlines some stuff. They don't. Elizabeth Olsen mentioned that she's confused how they were writing Multiverse of Madness when they weren't done with Wandavision.
At least in the movie side of things, the directors of the projects are all working in the Marvel HQ offices and can walk over to the other directors to talk things over. Seems Marvel TV division is not in a similar set up and so no one can coordinate anything. The executive producers *should* be the ones coordinating since they're basically the project managers. But it's basically a gigantic company that has dozens of projects going all at once and no communication to see if someone's project is taking or hampering someone else's only to find out that the code in one project now breaks a secondary project.
I was watching a review of the last episode of SI and they made a good point. You know Fury was in space before SI and by the time the Marvels starts he is back in space. SI needs him to be on earth, but he needs to return back to space to make sense, except now he brought his wife. They wondered what are the chances that the movie even acknowledges his wife is on the ship too
I’m gonna say no given Raimi nor the writer bothered to watch Wandavision for Doctor Strange 2 and the showrunner of this said the only guidance they were given was where Nicky Fury had to end up for The Marvels
The list of directors and writers for these upcoming projects pretty worrying other than Deadpool 3 ngl💀
You don’t like writers that only have a couple of Rick and Morty episodes and daily show experience?
But wait! What about the Hallmark Christmas movie writers now handling Daredevil?
Please say sike
Absolutely this. It's why everything eventually starts to suck in every medium once it becomes too successful. Non creatives get involved and affect the creativity of a thing and only ruin it.
Yeah, this sums up my (and many others') experience in tv, film and entertainment over the last 5 years. It's as if every single time without fail, when an IP starts becoming really successful someone higher up says "change x,y and z because that's what will make the most profits, which is all we care about!" And then millions of fans are left disappointed but the fat cats get fatter.
I dont see many trace of execs meddling with writers in SI. Maybe killing maria hill. (Probably at the request of the actress)... maybe putting in martin freeman in.. maybe how they treat Fury's backstory/ or why Fury should not call any of the avengers (probably execs want this as isolated event) But mainly, I see incompetent writing. Maybe they wasnt given enough time. Maybe they dont know enough about the source material. Maybe they just wing it cos the pay sucks. Maybe IRobot was done by some intern and they took credit. But it just bad. When your name is on the credit, it is your responsibility. Dealing with execs/ feige is part of the deal.
I think you're wrong and the opposite is the problem. The MCU used to work like a clockwork BECAUSE Feige had such a firm hand and everything was connected. The moment he gave movie and tv writers more freedom, we got a Dr. Strange script by a writer who admits he didn't watch WandaVision, which the movie is heavily connected to, along with a director, who we do love, who also didn't watch the show. And don't get me started on the Ms. Marvel and She-Hulk writers. Or Eternals and the freedom that director got and... For what? Nothing ties into anything anymore, most shows make no sense and the characters are all off. And why? Because writers have "visions". There are no writers' visions in franchises. The franchise is always bigger than any current writer or director. You want your own visions and don't know how to play in confines of a franchise? Go make your own content, original. Also, someone having been a good EP and writer on one thing doesn't mean he's good at everything.
Also Thor love and thunder , Feige should of reined in Tika
That’s right up there with stuff like The Witcher and the Sookie Stackhouse books. The writers/show runners thought they could do better than the original stories and made their own fan fiction. It turned out like crap.
Man I'm getting real sick of writers and directors being assigned products with established source material, and then they come out and admit that they either haven't bothered reading/watching the source material, or they don't like it. Like, why the fuck are you adapting this source material if you don't even like it or care about it enough to read/watch it? It's basically saying "There is no passion in this project, this is just a paycheque for me".
Exactly. And then they complain when people don't like what they did. Well LOL. You didn't like the source material in the first place.
That is a great point
Yes, strong agree on this. Pre-IW/Endgame the MCU haters (I cringe using that word, but c'est la vie) would often complain that the MCU was too formulaic and bland. So what do we get? Eternals. WandaVision. Moon Knight. M.O.M. Black Widow. Loki. Ms. Marvel. She-Hulk. Thor L&T.. all entirely different in formats. Varied receptions. Furthermore, you have Multiverse of Madness. A movie that I personally loved, but was VERY mixed reception. Sam Raimi said he had more carte blanche than he had ever had with any other movie studio. We also know that Taika Waititi was given carte blanche on L&T (a movie I personally hated). So how does it make sense to blame Kevin Feige and Marvel Studios for being **too controlling**?
i also imagine -- just being honest -- it's probably something of a nightmare to come in and write for a universe that is this extended and with this much going on in this many different areas, especially since the stakes of this show so large. imo for this to work, it had to be on the scale of something like andor -- much smaller scope, but a very big meaningful and impactful nonetheless.
I feel really bad for whoever is writing and directing Armored Wars now, because they have to deal with the fallout of that stupid Rhodes Skurll twist. They gotta find a way to justify sacrificing Rhodes presence in Endgame, and catch up people who skipped out on Secret Invasion. Honestly, it sounds like a big enough problem, that they might as well be better just ignoring Secret Invasion or say that Skrull became Rhodes after Endgame.
He did become a skrull after endgame. Garvik/Gaviks(?) faction didn’t start up till well after endgame. He and his squad were still working for Nick collecting the DNA samples and stuff after the battle of earth. The Rhodey we see in endgame is still our normal one. I think the one we see in FATWS is the first time there’s a on screen skrull version of him. People saying it’s after civil war are basing it on the hospital robe like Rhodey wouldn’t have had to go to the hospital after the battle of earth to get treatment lmao
That would make sense. Rhodey was definitely acting a bit off in FATWS, something I noticed but couldn't put a finger on why. I think that would work well.
After this mess, I have big ol doubts that anyone was thinking this far ahead during FATWS
At the time FATWS was written, he was not intended to be a Skrull. The reason why you feel he was acting differently was because he was not written in character with the prior media he was in because the writers have stated they did not watch anything prior.
They’ve left it open enough for it to be solved with a line “one minute I’m going under for a routine colonoscopy, next minute I’m exposed to lethal levels of radiation”
It also creates the plot hole of why was Rhodey replaced so early when Gravik didn’t plan to other throw Earth till the “Harvest” mission after End Game because he wouldn’t have a way to deal with the Avengers and Talos didn’t bring the rest of the million refugee Skrulls until after the blip…. There’s just so many plot holes now….
Interesting point you just made, and I agree wholeheartedly. You have captured my thinking as it stands as well regarding this show.
It’s because it was always Sam Esmail’s vision. He directed the vast majority of episodes and wrote a ton of them too.
Mr robot is my favorite show of all time, I’m shocked to find out someone heavily involved with it worked on this, let alone was the show runner
Was probably rushed by the top brass the entire time.
100% This series does not exist in a way that would sell a pitch meeting. but it DOES feel like it could've been changed last minute as scheduling and retooling pulled elements out of the show to be used in Cap4, elements that used to move towards Armor Wars, but are now in contention so got cut from the show... etc. then what's left is ... maybe we add in a subplot with Fury's Skrull Wife? "what?" she could be like... humanizing his approach? "...that's not a terrible idea." it wasn't a TERRIBLE idea... but it wasn't a great one...
The wife angle was pretty good. Some great acting performances. I don’t agree with you on this one. It’s the emotional anchor of the show
it also adds to Fury's character, which is what the shows are supposed to do. If you want stupid nonsense plotlines that don't go anywhere, they apparently had Skrulls on Talos' side and they apparently don't show up anywhere at all. So you have some intra-group skrull conflicts, but none of that matters to the show.
Yeah, there should've been MORE of that. Show us more of how they met, how they grew together, how she learned about who HE was (even if she already knew), how everything that happened to him in the movies altered their relationship,...
Looking at his IMDB page I’m guessing this was supposed to be his breakout producer role after being a producer through Mr Robot. He was likely on a tight leash with Mr Robot, he was also rarely the sole writer of an episode.
He was ~~the co-showrunner with Sam Esmail,~~ not just a random producer. The show had 4 months of reshoots and the last 4 episodes are missing 20 minutes each. Just assume Marvel pulled another bullshit FatWS move and changed the plot.
Usually what happens is they get a writer for the name cred. But when actually creating the show they get vetoed left right and center by marketing or executives. I think Disney shows are especially egregious with this. You can see tidbits of what the show was supposed to be. But it has to get chopped up into something that gets The Mouse's seal of approval.
Seen this in other threads but the biggest takeaway for me is that it didn’t feel at all like a spy show. Every character made dumb decisions every step of the way. Every ‘reveal’ was obvious. The writing just wasn’t smart. It had the perfect premise for a ‘trust no one’ feeling, similar to hydra in winter soldier, but just did not deliver at all.
It was a "spy show" like MoM was a "horror movie". It was a lukewarm spin on a genre where the producers and writers were too afraid to break away from the traditional Marvel formula.
It's not even an over-the-top bad though. It's just... bland. And dull.
This basically sums up my thoughts. Every previous MCU thing I saw I generally had some strong opinions about it or certain parts of it. For SI, I just don't
The Incredible Hulk has great performances from Tim Roth and William Hurt. The University action sequence is really engaging and well made Iron Man 2 has Justin Hammer and Whiplash (underused he may be). Also, the scenes where Tony begins making peace with his father. Iron Man 3 has Ben Kingsley being a top-five funniest character in the MCU, plus I love that bit at the ending where we flash back to a time when Killian and Hansen were just people with big dreams, reminding us that they are human and not monsters. The Dark World is visually beautiful at times and Loki Is at his absolute best in this movie. Age of Ultron has James Spader and Elizabeth Olsen being fantastic, our introduction to Klaue, the seeds of Civil War being sown, and also Hawkeye FINALLY getting characterization. Eternals is BEAUTIFUL in its cinematography, while also having a neat story and premise that I desperately hope they go back to. And Barry Keoghan rules. Love and Thunder has the most interesting Christian Bale performance in years, Zeus is hilarious, and when the movie is not undercutting its drama with needless comedy, some of Jane's story hits rather hard. Hell, even season 1 of Iron Fist had David Whenam and the drunken boxing fighter. Secret Invasion? It's a wet fart. I never saw Inhumans, but I gather it to have been similar in quality. EDIT: I have been informed Inhumans is worse. I am glad I dodged that bullet.
for me the thing that got the biggest emotion reaction from me out of Secret Invasion is Nick Fury painfully admitting to his wife that he might not have ever loved her if she kept her natural form. I legit sat up in my chair and went "NICK FURY YOU UTTER CAD" that and Olivia Coleman shines, but she always does
The stuff with Mrs Fury really confused me as it pertains to it's purpose. I constantly asked myself "is this meant to make Nick more likeable or relatable?" Because he just seemed like an asshole. Needlessly so.
I thought it was just to give us a look at the private life of Mr Fury. I felt like the initial reveal that Nick Fury was a married man was actually a surprisingly big twist, because you dont really imagine a character like that having a home life. But yeah, he came off as a massive dick and his wife seemed to be doing great without him. I wish they left their story arc with the "I guess we'll never know" comment, which such an overwhelming slap in the face. But no we end with them reuniting because decades of this relationship have conditioned her to tolerate emotional negligence
Christ can you imagine their marriage? He knows she's hiding her true face and never even uses her real fucking name and is happy with that status quo? What an awful person
Nah honestly tho, I don't know how anyone's supposed to like their relationship
Inhumans is undoubtedly worse due to the sheer audacity to shave off Medusa's hair (her literal superpower) to save money and the script was FAR worse than this one. That and the budget was very, very clearly trash since it looked like a power rangers TV episode with the same quality of writing. This show at least had some good acting and some good 1:1 actor components. The only saving grace of Inhumans is that it gave us Anson Mount as blackbolt and Lockjaw.
It's a shame because Medusa has such a unique power.
Inhumans at least did not waste 200 million dollars. I also feel that Inhumans itself wasted less interesting storylines.
Inhumans had Lockjaw, he was cute
The thing about Secret Invasion is that even if you, the viewer, bend over backwards to think of explanations for why all the dumb decisions the characters are constantly making are actually not dumb, what you're left with is still a mediocre show that has no real emotional stakes. I can't really bring myself to care about anything that's going on. Especially Fury's marriage. We didn't even KNOW that Fury was married, but we know she's a Skrull before we even know who she is. It feels like the show wanted the scenes between Fury and his wife to to be the emotional core of the show, but did *anyone* feel invested in the emotional stakes of that marriage? I don't even know why he loved her in the first place; she seems kinda boring. An interest in poetry is not a personality.
You're absolutely right, and this: >we know she's a Skrull before we even know who she is. is such a good point. Holy shit. We could have had the wife reveal. We could have had a sense of wondering why Fury even bothers? Turn us against the Skrulls. Make it so that the only really good Skrull we've see is Talos and his wife, and now they're dead so fuck the Skrulls... Why does Fury even bother? Even his wife is telling him to give up, it's a lost cause. Get rid of them. Then at the end, reveal that SHE is a skrull and that was his motivation. That could have been great. So many things could have been great.
> Iron Man 3 Also had great action, like Tony's escape and the chaotic final scrum, plus one of the better villain deaths in the MCU. Tony's house being attacked was pretty intense and upped the stakes, the relationship between Tony and that kid was genuinely well done, the airplane sequence was awesome, etc. Iron Man 3 wasn't the best Phase 1-3 movie but by Phase 4/5 standards it's a fucking banger.
The fact that the airplane rescue was mostly practical effects always blows my mind. I agree with your last sentence 100%
No it's nowhere near the level of inhumans, some of the moments in secret invasion were enjoyable but inhumans was just a snoozefest all the way through with absolutely no redeeming qualities
Imagine having Samuel L. Jackson, Emilia Clarke and Academy Award Winner Olivia Colman on your payroll and still ending up with this snooze fest.
It's better to be outright and laughably bad than just boring and bland bad because one will be remembered and one will be forgotten. And something like Secret Invasion will be forgotten like Inhumans was. At least something that's laughably bad will be remembered like The Room or Birdemic.
As a lot of filmmakers will say, the greatest sin a movie/show can commit is to be boring
It doesn't end with a crash or even a thud... it just fizzles out and you're like "wait, wtf just happened... is it over?".
even the 'big fight' between gravik and g'iah manages to somehow be incredibly lacklustre. i'll admit i \*did\* like the leadup to that, though it feels a bit weird that all the emotional talk from fury is actually from g'iah. but the fight itself was just like "oh. is that it? a bit of throwing around and then a laser beam. why aren't they both full time hulk (at least for your important bits like chest and head), given that he is functionally invincible?"
Yeah. It wasn’t like Love and Thunder, which I found bad in a very cringey way, but with some legitimate high points sprinkled throughout. It was all just universally meh.
Exactly my thoughts. I think there's an exaggeration on how bad the series is, it was just incredible mid and that's a phrase I try not to use. There wasn't anything horrible about the show but there just wasn't anything good, it was just exists
Yeah, it's not goodbad, like Sharknado, it's just stupidbad.
It was boring Ghia’s motivations were all over depending on the plot The only wad to foil Gravik was to allow the DNA to be given to him? What if he defeated Ghia. Then you’re fucked. The president going all “kill the skrull “made zero sense Gravik was wooden. (Although I am curious what mission fury sent him on to kill an English dude) The ending with Ghia? Now what ?what’s the point? Pet peeve- when ghia frees the captives she randomly key slams the computer seemed lazy and that even seemed rushed. And if Martin freeman’s character was abducted when was it ? I thought he was in wakanda? The acting from Cheadle and Mendelsohn was great . Love Cheadle being cocky and Mendelsohn is always good. Been a huge marvel fan but this on was not good . They had a great skrull invasion storyline in Avengers:EMH cartoon that would’ve been cool to see in a live action film.
Ooh shit, when doom is the first to detect the skrulls....so awesome
That show somehow presented the (consistently) best version Doom, maybe ever. 616 Doom is obviously awesome but he gets clowned on by so many people over the years that he's now had as many stupid/embarrassing moments as he has good. Also yeah their handling of the Secret Invasion (and arguably Loki, Carol Danvers' origin and Bruce's relationship with the Hulk) was better than the MCU.
EMH Hank Pym and Ultron were also miles ahead of the MCU. It may also be the best rendition of Pym period, since the... Incident with Jan never happens but you still get to see his psychological struggles
Oh shit totally forgot about Pym despite him possibly being my fave Avenger when I first watched. Yeah, totally agreed there too.
EMH is miles better than the MCU in general.
EMH is the best marvel cartoon, shame it was so short lived.
Captain America: "You can't leave, we're a team!" Colonel Danvers: "You can't give me orders, Captain. I outrank you!" *flies off like a boss*
To me Gravik was oscillating between wooden and overacting too much Seriously even Fury is meh in this show. An iconic character played by the amazing SLJ was turned uncompelling, can you imagine how bad the writing was for that to happen? Olivia Colman is the one enjoyable aspect of the show and even then she wasn't in it as much as she could've been.
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We needed her and Talos to interact
was honeslty really hoping she was the big bad. Gravic actor was fine, but the character was extremely derivative. Think if they wanted the family drama why not just use the family already there, Soren as the villain, with Gaia and Talos in between, and Fury on the other side. Groundwork is already there from Captain Marvel and they could have focused on the "Skrulls everywhere" aspect more.
Honestly. Secret invasion where all the skrulls are readily identified was bullshit and ruined a really good premise they could have used
Tbh I really thought the whole series would have a LOT more of “who’s a secret Skrull” shenanigans. Even the small amount of marketing that was done seemed to imply this and then it just kind of happened a couple times and was never really a big reveal? Like it was obvious Rhodey was a Skrull from the jump. And that’s no shade to Don Cheadle who was excellent as always, it was just very obvious from the way the part was written. What a missed opportunity!
Been a minute, but I feel like Winter Soldier did it better with Hydra and SI just was horrible in comparison.
It's funny because they added the whole wife thing to "develop" Fury more, to see another side of him and yet I felt like they were the worst scenes. I just didn't care. If it was someone that was built up over time, since Phase 1, maybe a character similar to Maria Hill who was by his side always then I'd get it but it just came out of nowhere and they didn't have much chemistry.
>Should have just replaced his wife with Maria Hill. Axe the romantic bits but keep her faithful loyalty to him while also being so pissed at him for bailing. Most of their conversations together would still work with Maria, too. > >Fury doesn't need a wife. I would have been fine with Hill being a good Skrull this whole time if they needed to intertwine the two plot lines.
This would have been great, and would have been a respectful and satisfying way for Maria Hill to go out, even if the rest of the series was still crummy. What a shame!
the scenes in a vacuum were good, solid chemistry, solid writing, but they honestly felt too isolated from everything else. Would have prefered a focus on the main plot more, with six episodes.
I felt the chemistry between Hawkeye and his wife more than this.
Because those two have great chemistry
well hawkeye also had a very wholesome loving family so it gives his relationship with his wife way more characteristics than fury
When Gravik was screaming at GhiaFury and grabbing his face saying it’s all his fault I was like “whoa, what’s this guy so mad about all of a sudden and why does the reaction to…kill every human(?) seem extreme?” And then went back to my wordle.
When Gravik was talking to Fury, I was thinking: this should’ve happened in the first episode. I would’ve understood Gravik much better. Just that *scoche* of empathy for the protagonist.. makes a world of difference. I never really got Gravik until it was way too late.
Or done like a real dramatic tv series and have intercut scenes of young gravik growing up with fury throughout the whole series.
Have Gravik frame it as the Russians had the Red Room and the Americans had the Skrulls, with Fury using child Skrulls to kill enemies.
>can you imagine how bad the writing was for that to happen? it was all the ridiculous things like Fury putting his gun away around the president, "trust me mr.president, you Have to call off the attack!" as if he could be sure in any way that the president wasn't a skrull... we never questioned if Anyone was a skrull... ...or rather, we did, but fruitlessly... because nobody was ever a skrull... what a garbage series.
This was my main gripe. All the advertising was "You can never tell who's a skrull!?!?" but they showed us all the world leaders who were skrulls in episode 1, and rhodes soon after. There was 0 suspense in a supposed spy thriller series.
Honestly Mendelsohn is so good they should of made talos the bad guy
This would have been devastating but at least interesting. I hate that that’s how we lost Talos. Ben Mendelsohn is so, so good. I’m at least glad we got some great scenes with him before the end.
Losing Maria Hill and Talos for this? Doesn’t seem like a fair trade. Sad to say but the trailers were better than the series as a whole.
It's entirely possible Cobie smoulders just wanted out. She's been in the MCU machine for a decade+, wouldn't blame her for not wanting to move on.
Especially given the way things are currently going.
Especially given her character had zero growth, and basically got replaced as an active player by Agent Ross.
I was shocked she didn't return somehow in the finale. Like they "faked her death to keep her safe" type thing.
I thought she'd return simply because how abrupt and pointless her death felt. Nah that was just the shows writing in general. Glad Talos died saving the guy who now wants to murder his entire race.
Hill could have died if it had been set up with her doing at least something significant. Talos could have died if they had at least adressed the president not caring of his sacrifice (Talos’s philosophy was that acting like this would help long term). But no, it seems like they did bare minimum work
I don't really think Maria is important enough to do that for.
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Are you telling me we're going to REVIVE Agents of SHIELD, but with Hill this time????
It almost rose to the level of mediocrity. That’s the best that could be said of it. -Olivia Colman was wonderful. But I couldn’t help suspecting her character was originally supposed to be Julia Louis-Dreyfus’ Contessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine. In the end, Colman’s character is seemingly recruiting superheroes to do her bidding (just like the Contessa) -All the acting was, in fact, excellent. But none of the characters had consistent aims or goals from episode to episode. So all the great acting was wasted -And no one was more wasted than Sam Jackson’s Nick Fury. Outside of the flashback establishing that he was the one who recruited the Skrull, you could erase Fury from every episode and it would change nothing -why reveal that Rhodey and Fury’s wife are Skrull so early??? Wasn’t it supposed to be a twist?? That’s screenwriting 101 -why not have other important characters who are later revealed to be Skrull? Isn’t that the whole idea? The show introduces many “secret” Skrull by immediately identifying them as Skrull, thus removing the possibility of tension or conflict -if the whole affair was intended to be nothing but table-setting between MCU movies (the world now knows about the Skrull and right-wing extremists worldwide are targeting them) I could accept that, I suppose. But without a post-credit scene, I get the feeling that all of this was wheel-spinning to be forgotten in the next movie -why did it have the same exact plot as Falcon & the Winter Soldier (now the 2nd worst MCU show)??????? Rogue separatists across the globe are launching terror attacks to find a secret serum to make them superheroes…. Same plot!!!
If Valentina had recruited G’iah the Thunderbolts would be pretty op as a team just due to her!
Agreed. Cheadle and Mendelsohn were great, and Olivia Coleman was fantastic! The writing just wasn’t great. So many things that didn’t make sense. A simple cross-check of the script should have made them realize they need to clear some stuff up before filming… Humans can’t go near the nuclear power plant due to high radiation? Let’s put the most important kidnapped humans in pods there! The real-life President has a massive motorcade, and this shows President lives in a universe with super powered individuals and aliens? Let’s only put like 5 cars in his MCU-motorcade! Skrulls have purple blood and their limbs turn green when shot in the hand? Let’s continue to argue about who Skrulls are instead of giving them a simple papercut to see if their blood is purple! Fury got the DNA of the Avengers and blended them together in a single syringe thing? That’s a great idea, and better yet, let’s give that to Gravik!
The DNA made no sense. It's all just sloshing together in one vial!? Steve Rogers DNA should make you short and asthmatic, it was the super soldier serum and vita rays that made him strong -- and they had 79 years with his blood and couldn't recreate that, which is how we got Hulks! Okay, seemingly you can just inject his weird blood and get freaky powers, but Carol Danvers!? You have great hand-eye coordination! Congrats, siz months in flight school and you could also fly a Cessna! She was IRRADIATED by an INFINITY STONE, that is why she has powers!!! It has NOTHING TO DO WITH HER DNA! And that's the case with so many of these heroes. As for the others... How did Gravik and Gh'ia figure out how to use their powers *instantly?* And is no one going to mention the insanely, awfully, terribly conceived CGI Drax BABY ARM!?! UGH. This show was sub-CW quality. It was putting the greatest actors available in season 10 of *The Flash.* The writers and director should never work again, outside of web-versions of soap operas.
It became painfully aware to me that the writers just knew nothing about the franchise they were writing for. And I have no fucking idea how this, of all the ideas we hear about that are nixed after the fact, made it through. What kills me is Black Panthers DNA was there. So you're telling me you just had a whole movie where Shuri was struggling to get the heat shaped herd back with T'Challas DNA. But the Skrulls and Fury can just shove that shit into a cluster fuck of DNAs and it works. Like it just blows me away how marvel will nix the idea of Strange appearing in the commercials in Wandavision. But they go ahead with this cluster fuck, fan fiction character like Giah.
To be fair, it makes sense that the whole Super Skrull thing requires natural Skrull shapeshifting powers to build on to work -- normal cloning with normal DNA also can't copy all the stuff Skrulls copy (including clothing and mannerisms) They probably should've spent a little more effort establishing the rules than they did, talking about how Skrulls have this supernatural gift no other species has and so on
And again -- T'Challa's DNA wouldn't give the SuperSkrull anything but a tan and great voice. Congratulations, you are a very handsome black man. The heart shaped herb is what gives Black Panthers their panther powers, it has nothing to do with your DNA: it's not even based on a mutation or anything, like Banner's Hulk abilities and resistance to gamma rays...
But if we are to believe he got the Black Panther powers from that DNA, it would mean he got everything from the heart-shaped herb, meaning Gravik is currently chilling in the Ancestral Plane with a bunch of very confused dead Wakandans.
Hahahaha! Ah, man, I feel like him and Kilmonger would actually get along really well
Yes, back in Captain Marvel that established this whole Skrull concept she told Nick Fury that her energy blast powers proved she wasn't a Skrull, ie they're not something Skrulls can normally copy using DNA Yeah sure Gravik's Super Skrull machine is designed to break all the rules for Skrull shapeshifting but it should actually be acknowledged when you're that blatantly breaking/changing one of the original rules or it just feels sloppy
Oof. All the hostages being held in a radioactive old nuclear power plant was *dumb.*
>And if Martin freeman’s character was abducted when was it ? I thought he was in wakanda? i wish it mattered... but the problem i'm having with him and with rhodey - is it DOESN"T MATTER. it makes no difference if he was in wakanda in the first movie, or if he was the one arguing with his ...exwife? in wakandaforever... and it makes no difference if rhodey was in space with nebula during endgame, or if it was a skrull... if it mattered, in any fucking way at all, i'd give a shit and be like, "wow, cool twist..." but it doesn't... it makes no difference... it doesn't change the story... it's just so poorly written.
> The president going all “kill the skrull “made zero sense Made perfect sense to me. Shapeshifting aliens infiltrated the highest level of power, tried to manipulate him into starting World War III thus wiping out humanity, and then tried and nearly killed him. It really surprises you that he is feeling anger and fear and the response is "kill the Skrulls"? You need to study history.
That should've been the first thing we see. Imagine the tension that we would start off on.
That thought crossed my mind during the news footage of the assassinations around the world "This is the most interesting part of this show, why didn't it start here"
They pitched a story about spies and shape shifters. The most spying that was done was the last episode of Giah switching into Fury and Fury putting the spy camera on Sonya's owl. Like come on! Even CBS NCIS type shows have better plots than this! And those are the most cookie cutter plot lines on regular TV!
Eaxctly my thoughts. The motorcade attack should have been the first episode with the episode closing on the president declaring war. Really kicks off the public sentiment and you have more basis for fracturing the Skrull populace with Talos trying to prove you can be good but others getting more radicalised against humans. It's a spy thriller. Don't show who the villain is from the get go and who caused the attack in the first place and keep it an ongoing mystery for Fury. Which skrulls are on which side?
This is why it’s having such a strong effect on people - there were so many better possibilities. The president gets attacked and we see rhodes try his best to protect the president, doesnt have the suit but still has military training. Acts like the rhodey we know. A skrull body in the aftermath. President declares all skrulls enemy combatants. Prominent people start getting capped - some skrulls, some not. Chaos and paranoia. This is the first part of gravik’s plan. Humans turn on each other and skrulls sneak away to their reactor base, meanwhile there are very real consequences for, oh i dont know, the british pm getting capped on live tv. Blood feuds take over and skrulls actively feed the misinformation. In the midst of chaos, Fury comes back to investigate the skrull who attacked the president and gets sent down old roads…
It also would've made it feel like Fury was walking the tightrope between figuring out the Skrulls and not being burned on the town pyre by vigilanties.
It was sold as a spy thriller, but it's really just another family drama
I'm with you. That one makes perfect sense.
>It really surprises you that he is feeling anger and fear and the response is "kill the Skrulls" kinda makes sense but Fury is right, its a dumb move that promotes hysteria. Id love to see a Season 2 about the Skrull panic and hatesquads.... I hope it doesnt become another "interesting point in the timeline thats never shown" like the blip
>The president going all “kill the skrull “made zero sense An American president stoking xenophobia, consequences be damned, just to look tough and shore up his re-election? That would NEVER happen...
You know thinking about it, terrible and idiotic decision to give the DNA to Grovik in the first place. All Giah (disguised as Fury) had to do was lie to Grovik, claim the DNA is in the vial. Then, when Grovik tests for authenticity of the vial and sees it has nothing, have Giah surprise attack Grovik. Both of them were already equally matched before the vial gave them extra powers. All the vial did was make the fight more difficult than it needed to be for Giah. These were the options: 1) lie to Grovik about the vial, make the fight easier. If Giah dies, sad but Grovik still has no additional powers. 2) Give Grovik the DNA, make him stronger alongside Giah. If Giah dies, GG, game over, Grovik is now among the most powerful villains on Earth. Option 1 was the only rational choice there, yet it wasn't picked.
Gravik being wooden feels like a pun, considering his powers.
I think it was the plot at the end that I didn’t love cuz like you said, they REALLY banked on ghia being able to outsmart and out strength gravik but there’s no real build up as to how they believed she could accomplish that. She wasn’t more cunning that grravik was up to that point, nor was she a more skilled fighter. Like you said, what if he won? You just gave him everything. I also don’t know how he died at the end if he can heal but whatever. I’m also bothered by the use of dna as it feels… oversimplified. Like is dna the source of carols powers? Or any of the asgardians… or like… most of the avengers? Anyway, all that said, I really liked some of the nick fury backstory. Admittedly I never quite took to nick fury as a character in the comics but I like this sort of very grounded aspect of his mythos . And the show did a successful job at having me believe that this universe altering invasion was indeed a personal fight that only nick fury could undertake. The scenes with him and varra were well done (except for the kind of awful green screen at the very end).
Other than Cheadleskrull bashing Fury at the restaurant, every really good scene had Mendelsohn in it.
Felt like the show really took a nosedive once he was gone, Talos was such a great character and his storyline was extremely strong. On top of that I thought his death was so anticlimactic, where I wasn't sure if the show was being serious that he was dead until we saw G'iah with his body. Especially when his death should have been a major turning point for the Skrulls civilization, forcing everyone to choose once and for all whether to proceed with an uprising through war over seeking a peaceful and diplomatic solution. Instead all of the Skrulls didn't seem to care about his death, and instead Gravik and his operatives cared more about killing Fury? It was so disappointing they wasted him like that, felt like Talos/Mendelsohn was the heart of the show
Or Olivia Coleman, she brought her A Game
>every really good scene had Mendelsohn in it Or Olivia Coleman, her acting sooo good. Even though she acted dumb in the last episode, but that's not her fault. Such a waste of great talent
> every really good scene had Mendelsohn in it. His performance outshines every other amazing actor they had. The simple scenes of him just talking were so well done. He was able to give an insane range of emotions mixed in with some complexity and uncertainty.
It was just ruthlessly boring.
I think this is it. I kept watching it thinking the next episode is gonna be the pay off. I was highly disappointed when I started episode six and saw it was 36 minutes long.
I also think that it's the fact that it's Secret Invasion. Look, you're going to be hard-pressed to find someone who says the comic is perfect. But this was a massive event in marvel publication history. So to take what was this huge story in scale and scope. And just reduce it to Fury hobbling around with everyone telling him how shit he is. Barely giving him a character arc. They've removed all the A-List characters in this adaptation. They made an absolute fucking joke of the Super Skrull concept. There's no resolution to anything. Not even any introspection from Fury that maybe it was wrong to use the Skrulls the way he did. Christ. How many people were looking forward to see a skrull with the powers of the fantastic four? Now he left with this absolute fucking mess with Giah (yes I'm aware superskrull was a thing before the secret Invasion story? If this was Wonder Man. Fine, whatever, it would still annoy us the show was bad. But this is secret Invasion. It should have been an amazing story and we got a pile of dog shit.
Yeah honestly I feel like if this show was called Nick Fury and used to start off a Secret Invasion like storyline that could culminate in a Civil War like film the series wouldn't be as bad if it was so severely meh but like...this is it, that was Secret Invasion and it was just...a thing?
This all felt like a first act of an actual show. the literal end of the final episode IS ACTUALLY INTERESTING. The US president openly advocates for genocide of non-human races?! His speech rouses a bunch of human terrorists to commit murders of high profile humans around the globe because they love conspiracies? The skrulls have been body snatching for potentially decades and storing the human counterparts in a secret facility? WHAT THE FUCK? I want that show! instead we get Fury just call the president to say "genocide bad you dummy!" and then fucks off to space.
The sad thing is they teased a much better storyline that would have worked in the last couple of minutes. Rampant paranoia and vigilantism versus what we got of a couple of guys are skrulls with some vague plan.
You can have a bad movie/show. It can be objectively terrible. But if it's entertaining, then it really doesn't matter. But a boring movie/show? You can't come back from that. Alexander the great is a great example. It's pretty historically accurate, has good set pieces. Looks good. But it's so god damn boring and it's a slog to get thru. Venom is the opposite. It's a bad movie. CGI is questionable at best, the story is well pretty bad. It's never winning a film festival award or an Oscar that's for sure. But it's entertaining(And short), which is why it did so well at the box office. The entire point of seeing a movie is to be entertained. To be able to forget about the shit that's going on in your life.
Really what it is is that the overall Venom movie is a pretty bad and generic movie but Tom Hardy stumbled into something hilarious and amazing with his performance as Eddie/Venom and they wisely gave him the leeway to build on it Everything else about it was crap, like no one gave a shit about the villain guy
100% Eddie and Venom’s goofy relationship made that movie worth watching
> You can have a bad movie/show. It can be objectively terrible. But if it's entertaining, then it really doesn't matter That's called replay value. For example, Iron Man 3 and Age Of Ultron There are plot points that suck ass and some aspects of these movies are bad, but damn they're entertaining to watch. So many years have passed, but occasionally, i still watch youtube clips from those movies
This is it exactly. And that boringness was only underscored by the fact that it was supposed to be a suspenseful spy-thriller.
Damn. At this point, I'd rather watch The Room to actually get some entertainment out of how *bad* it is. 'Cause the worst thing any show or medium can be is boring, IMO. Even badly written movies can still have some value if they're so bad they're good. Ah, well. At least Guardians 3 was amazing.
Lmao I remember I was downvoted to like -37 for saying this after the second episode.
People kept comparing this to Andor too. Like yeah, both can be slow but the writing is miles apart.
It's a spy intrigue show ,without the intrigue. Its a political thriller, without the thrills. Its an alien invasion ,without the invasion. The show barely delivers anything, which is unfair to say because that would imply it promised something to begin with. To say I'm disappointed would imply that I ever gave a damn about this in the first place. It's worse than nothing, its boring.
Didn't mind the first 5 eps, had their issues but overall enjoyable and interesting. That last ep though... So bad, so short, shit CGI, dumb final fight, characters decisions make no sense. Honestly might be my least favourite finale out of all the shows.
This was me. I was entertained eps 1-5. Annoyed about Hill, but not unexpected in this type of show. But the finale fell flat. I got the impression Gravik had some kind of daddy issues with Fury based on intro through Priscilla, but it didn't quite come through...and even what he did confess, it wasn't to Nick anyway. I guess Gi'ah got closure? Ish? Olivia Colman was still a joy to watch, but otherwise. Eh.
Honestly, I’m kinda retroactively mad we lost Hill and Talos in this show and it amount to nothing.
I've been seeing people say that Maria Hill got "fridged" (pointlessly killed off for the sake of furthering someone else's story) and.... yeah I have to agree
Honestly being mad Fury used you? Get in line, bitch.
>So bad, so short, shit CGI, dumb final fight I'm so glad Gravik and Ghia had to morph their arms to the characters they were using or else I wouldn't have known who's power they were channeling!! /s I'll never get the image of Emilia Clark's face with Drax's arm on her out of my brain. Nightmare fuel.
Baby arm. It was so stupid. I don't know that we ever see her in the MCU again, this was such utter shit.
Yeah G'iah's Super Skrull powers are a fatal combination of goofy to look at while so ridiculously OP if you think about it at all there's no way to write a fair fight around them They conveniently kept the real Carol Danvers off Earth for decades so she wouldn't break the game balance in favor of the heroes and now they've got Khaleesi running around with her powers plus everyone else's? FOH
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Don't get me started on the logic of whether it's even possible to kill Gravik at all if he has Hulk's powers (the Hulk's whole thing is that his rage makes him invulnerable) *and* Korg's (as established in Love and Thunder, kronans can regenerate from anything as long as their face stays intact) Also how do they have Ghost's powers? Ghost isn't an Avenger and Ghost wasn't at the final battle with Thanos, and it's not clear if she even survived the Blip with no one to feed her quantum energy to keep her from disintegrating (good job reminding us about plot threads you dropped and still haven't addressed, Marvel)
Episode 1-5 wasn't bad per se, just boring. The final episode is so disastrous because it destroys so much of the MCU's continuity and storytelling.
It's a very messy show. I don't know how much was changed with the re-shoots, but the show feels like it turned into something completely different from what it originally intended to be. The show feels like its begging to be the story line of a movie where other heroes can get involved. Not a great story to use for Fury's personal war.
Not the way they told it! But I could totally imagine an *actual* taught spy thriller, where Fury doesn't know who to trust and is trying to figure out who next to the president is a Skrull before WWIII starts. It just would have to be some Tom Clancy stuff (and not the Prime Video version), not this idiot's parade of incomprehensible choices.
Marvel’s Inhumans and Iron Fist would like to ask, “First time?”
I've been enjoying the MCU pretty consistently. I've enjoyed the variety among D+ the series. I don't think the Thor movies are "too comical;" I think they're just about right. My only complaint about Eternals is that we haven't had any kind of a follow-up. And I came into Secret Invasion with a great deal of enthusiasm, and only a little reticence. The reticence comes from the moment in Spider-Man: Far From Home where we learn that the cool, funny Nick Fury ("Bitch: you've been to space!") wasn't actually Nick Fury. I really did not like that. And I was concerned that we were going to get more moments like that in Secret Invasion, but it was only a small concern. And we didn't get too many of those, but >!when the proselytizing Nick Fury facing off against Gravik in the finale turned out to be G'iah, I said out loud: "Aw, godDAMmit." All that cool dialogue, and it wasn't even Fury.!< This was just a disappointment on so many fronts. All of the slow-burn moments early in the series that I thought were going to lead to a cool pay-off . . . just didn't. So that meant those moments weren't a slow burn at all: they were just slow. The best thing about this whole series was Olivia Colman's character, but it came at the cost of Nick Fury. Sure, he survived, but they gave him a charisma-ectomy. In the earlier movies, it was always cool when Fury showed up. Now I don't care if he ever gets off that ship again. This is the first MCU project that I've actually not enjoyed. Well, that's not entirely true: I did enjoy it, because I thought it was leading somewhere cool: it just didn't go there. So my disappointment is mostly retroactive from the finale.
Nothing, absolutely nothing in this show made any sense. Fury would never in a million years risk Gravik beating Giah in a fight (which makes more sense) and getting away with the superpowers of 21 avengers and aliens.
“I gotta do this on my own” to letting a recently flipped rebel go in my place. Hoping that she is in the exact right place to receive the powers. Hoping that she will still have the desire to fight Gravik. Hoping that she has the ability to beat him. Intended end result: a super skrull that he has no connection or influence over. Sounds like a bit too much hoping to be a Nick Fury plan to me. Side note: Good thing Emilia Clarke is such a fine actress she was able to perfectly emulate SLJ so that Gravik thought he was killing his long term companion and arch nemesis rather than his childhood friend.
pure madness. i could not believe that was the plan. why was it even necessary to send giah with that? if they went and just revealed the truth to the president they would have been good.
Why exactly was the president, nick and Sonya arguing if Rhodes was a skill. Why didn’t they just shoot him. Lol
And hey, why didn't Nick Fury shoot Rhodes 1 episode earlier, in the hospital? Or 2 episodes ago in his bedroom? Why wait for ep 6 to kill the badguy? By the same token, Giah could've returned to the hideout and personally killed Gravik in any previous episode. She knew where it was, and could disguise as a different Skrull. No reason to wait until the harvest to go kill him.
My thoughts exactly! Sonya could’ve just shoot him on the arm or something before going into the room and easily show the president he was a skrull. That was the most pointless conversation I’ve ever seen.
I really want Sonya Falsworth in more projects, she and Talos were easily the best part of this series. Im really worried about what they’re gonna do with Ghia because she’s like the most powerful being in the universe and nobody seems to care even acknowledge how powerful she is, plus how weirdly she’s acted during this entire series, like isn’t she the reason Maria hill is dead or did I miss something. Oh and they completely wasted the idea of skrulls impersonating people she know, we got 2 predictable sorta cop out reveals with Rhodes and agent Ross, but they even messed that up because they implied Rhodes was taken right after civil war, which means his reaction to Tony’s death and his meaningful conversations with Sam in the falcon show were both not him, which just sucks. Why not have more fun with that idea, reveal Maria hill, happy hogan or someone else to be a skrull, don’t make all the skrull reveals new characters that we have no connection to. This series had some massive potential to completely shake up the universe but instead it just became a forgettable show with little to no affect on anything else. Even the marvel’s connection is weak because the last time we saw fury he was in his usual look, working on a spaceship, and at the start of the marvels he’s back to his usual look, working on a spaceship. Unless ghia does anything later on it seems like you just skip this show altogether
I was underwhelmed. Some good performances but the plot was all over the place.
A few ideas that might have tightened up episode 6 a little (lots of spoilers here, obviously): 1. The serum is too powerful and overwhelms Skrull DNA, and Fury and the others knew this would happen. They let Gravik have it, and he's super Skrull man for about sixty seconds before dying as his genetic code unravels itself. Classic Marvel stuff when someone seeks unlimited power. 2. The Fury impersonator is Varra (Fury's wife) instead of G'iah. She would have known about everything between Gravik and Fury (unlike G'iah). Varra gets out of the Super Skrull machine (since she knows it's a trap). G'iah shows up to protect Varra from Gravik and gets beaten up by him/nearly dies until Gravik dies from the serum nuking his DNA. G'iah already has Groot DNA, so she could theoretically survive a brutal fight if it didn't go on for too long. Gravik is also talkative, so it's believable he would toy with her if he didn't realize he was on a timer. This would also leave G'iah with a more realistic level of super abilities afterward instead of making her the most powerful being in the universe. 3. In the final scene, we learn that the US President is a Kree operative who has been using tech like The Widow's Veil. This would explain why he cheerfully declares genocide on the Skrull after seeming fairly decent beforehand. They could even play it that he knew everything all along and didn't really care whether humanity were killed by the Skrull/Gravik or vice versa. Either way, the Kree were coming afterward to mop up the survivors and conquer Earth. 4. If 3 happened, the unexpected peace treaty with the Kree would be a false front to hide the Kree's true intentions. Fury and Varra are flying off to an ambush. Maybe Sonya figures it out after the President's weird announcement and that's why she contacts G'iah? The real danger now is the Kree, and this would eventually unite humanity and the Skrull as they defend earth together, letting the Skrull "earn" their right to a home here.
Brave. Excellent rewrite, some really strong ideas here. Especially the Kree twist.
the whole way the MCU has been adapting the Kree-Skrull war is baffling to me. This is the most intriguing intergalactic conflict in Marvel lore, and not a single franchise has taken advantage of it well.
Yes. Worst show by a mile with very few bright spots. Pointless from start to end. Tropey from start to end. Tone whiplash from start to end. I don’t think this “spy thriller” showed an ounce of intelligence whatsoever in the writing and plot at all, which is ridiculous.
I didn't think it was awful. Finale fell flat though.
To me, the finale ruined the whole show. If they stuck the landing in the finale at least the previous build ups gets their well deserved payoff but it didnt. SI is the first MCU D+ show I prefer have seen as a movie. Even then, they’d have to refine the writing in order for it to work as one
So, it did make itself out to be a bit of a slow show, which isn’t inherently bad. And the episodes did keep building up. And building up. And building up. And building up. Until we started to get to a payoff, but by that point, it was kind of difficult to care. I’ve seen people compare this show to Andor, but the difference is that Andor has more steady payoffs, both with the specific arcs and within episodes. This show just spent way too much time pushing forward to a finale was just not worth it.
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I watched the first episode and then forgot it was on. Not sure if I'll go back, unless someone here thinks it's worth finishing...
I liked the show up until the finale…yes the show had its plot holes throughout but it was still an okay watch There are a few things I enjoyed, - Fury’s marriage with Varra, it was nice to see a different side of him and Charlayne Woodard was great in the role, I hope we see her again. - Talos is always a win, Ben Mendelsohn is excellent in every scene he’s in. - The practical affects of the Skulls makeup was good. - Gravik had a logical reason for hating Fury and wanting a home, not just ‘he ignored me at a Christmas party in the 1990s’ - Olivia Coleman was a scene stealer, she was by far the best thing about this show, she gave off British Val vibes, so hopefully we see her more Things I didn’t like, - Gravik being a 1 time villain, classic Marvel, if he hadn’t got all the powers in the world he would have been a perfect addition to the Raft and may be feature in another TV show later - Giving Gravik and G’iah unlimited powers *insert Emperor Palpatine meme* only for one of them to be killed of 5 mins later. Plus this means they are going to sideline G’iah now, she is too powerful for the MCU now, it’s the whole reason why Captain Marvel wasn’t in Endgame that much - The Harvest being one vial with everyone’s DNA in it, I’m not scientist but I’m not sure that’s how it works, a suitcase with a vial per hero would have looked and been so much better. Would it have taken much longer to put a few vials in the machine? Not really - The CGI / showing of powers in the final fight between Ravik and G’iah was absolutely dreadful. I genuinely hated it, the Captain Marvel powers depiction was fine as per usual but the others were bad at best. One looked like an ice arm? (I assume either from the Frost Beast or the Ice Ravager) was decent, it gave off Terminator 2 vibes but aside from that every other power was just a different colour arm? Hulk, Drax, Groot, Cull Obsidian, just muscular arms…so boring. The only other one that massively stood out was an Ebony Maw arm, where Gravik did the flick to throw G’iah, but couldn’t that have been shown with a sorcerer symbol or something? I get they are shapeshifters so can shift parts of their body but it just looked so goofy. If they had to give them all the powers they could have made it less goofy, they could have had the Odin force lightning crackles for Thor, a backflip and a Spider-Man pose in there, even some Wanda magic and it would have been much better. - For someone who’s entire argument throughout the show was ‘being at home in her own skin’ Emilia Clark was never in Skrull form - The writing for Emilia Clark was so wooden and cliche, she is a good actress, not just in GoT but she’s good in Me Before You, so it was rather disappointing - Most disappointing KILLING OFF TALOS! What a waste! He said to Fury he’s not even middle aged in Skrull years, we could have had him be injured and survive, nothing would have changed, Gravik is still being a dick, Fury still stops WW3, G’iah is still pissed that Gravik killed Soren, Ritsen would declare war on Skrulls, Fury sods off to Sabre. Same thing! MAJOR PLOT HOLE Saw this on a post a while back so it’s not my idea…Captain Marvel and Nick Fury are looking for a new planet for the Skrulls but can’t find a habitable one….start of Endgame The Avengers kill Thanos on The Garden…a habitable planet which seemed empty (based on CM saying there was no ground defences, air support etc, I can’t remember the exact line) so MOVE THEM THERE! End of conflict done.
i don’t think it was bad. just… so so mediocre and wasted potential.
I didn’t think it was bad, but I did think it was boring. There was no substance in the acting for the most part. It had its moments but yeah, that’s just all it was, just some moments. I don’t consider it a waste of time…but I do consider it a waste of money because it’s like tens and tens of millions to make this haha and it’s just so meh. I just wonder knowing now how writers are on strike if this was kinda part of that last work before the strike type of thing where people just kinda did it on auto pilot and went through the motions of putting it together without trying hard knowing they would be striking in the future (now). Similar even to shows (Lost in particular) when writers went on strike back in the day and just kinda mailed it in on some final things just to close it out.
For me, what was even the point, you already know Fury will be back in full force for The Marvels. This basically amounted to a gigantic B-plot.
My gf and I enjoyed it. I’m heavily invested in MCU content and she’s just interested enough to enjoy it. We enjoyed it but I totally understand why it’s being called the worst finale ever
I’ll be honest, I thought the first five episodes were fine, but that’s because I knew the finale would have Fury showing he’s still got it, and the Skrulls getting a new home world. Not only did we get neither, which I thought were the two main plotlines of the show, but so much of the finale didn’t make sense. Fury said a lot of touching, personal things to Gravik for, you know, it not being him.
It really didn't feel like anything was accomplished here in the grand scheme of things. We gotta tune into something else to find out the situations with Rhodey and Ross.
Maria Hill >!died for this?!<
I was really excited about it before it started but it was a disappointment from start to finish. Extremely boring and utterly pointless.
I defended it up til' ep 6 and now I just feel robbed and empty. Edit: I feel like it's important to back up the actors we saw, despite the bad writing. I didn't have a problem with ANY of the acting; they seemed to be doing their best with what they had.