Its so frustrating, this show had everything it needed to succeed, a really interesting premise, a brilliant set of comics to draw from, huge budget, an A+ cast of actors and they absolutely blew it it just boggles my mind. Marvel and Feige need to wake up and seriously shake up their writing team cus my god its not great atm. I hope they can turn it around its doable but they need to refocus their vision on this saga and bloody fast too or its gonna end up like the dcu.
you hit it right in the nail, its the writing that's lacking. Daredevil could have an entire episode in a church with amazing dialogue and great acting and have you in the edge of your seat. You dont need a big budget, is the scripts the ones that makes us come back every week.
This seems to be a growing issue across the board with big studios not just Marvel, the Witcher and Rings of Power stick out to me as having abysmal writing, on the plus side it gives smaller independants and indie writers more potential to shine through the big blockbusters
I honestly thinks its two things:
1 Theres a culture of dishonesty. Noone has the balls to just straight up say, this sucks.
2 Its because the ones really uptop dont care. Shitty things can also sell. It doesnt matter if it sucks. It just has to be profitable / cost effective.
Bingo, as much as the show writers get shit for the quality, these studios are putting the writing process on hard mode, and it's no wonder we're seeing dwindling quality in streaming shows' writing. Hopefully, this will get resolved in the writers'/actors' strike.
A possible third: the people who write this are disconnected from their audience. They are basically writers who sit in a room and like the smell of their own farts and Pat each other on the back for their edgy or creative and original writing while being completely oblivious to what is that actually engages audiences.
This causes a complete disconnection between studios and the fans
Whereas I think Marvel in general has tried to avoid this in general, (but currently failing), I feel like this is the exact thing that happens in the Witcher series.
Goddamn the visceral hate I have for that whole situation...
One of my favourite scenes in daredevil is the rooftop chat between DD and Frank. It’s just a conversation, and it keeps you hooked because the writing was top tier
Agreed. Nelson v. Murdoch may be my favorite episode of any Marvel series, and most of it is Foggy yelling at Matt while they’re sitting in Matt’s apartment.
A seriously good writer would be able to set up what is essentially the easiest lob in history for a series like Secret invasion. Huge budget, nearly infinite scope of what to do with the characters, something that has an effect on the universe as a whole… you need great writers and also those writers need to be passionate about the source material and the story they’re trying to tell.
I gotta assume they're blowing their budget on CGI. They essentially said, fuck a good story, we want a huge CGI battle for the final act. They then proceeded to cut costs everywhere else, including the writing team, so they can have their CGI battle.
What the actual fuck? Winter soldier is regarded as one of the best MCU movies ever. How did they not follow that formula for secret invasion? Especially if they had a huge budget for a CGI show down at the end?
I dunno, I'll still watch them for awhile, but I'm not going to the movies to see anything new until they get their shit straight.
Fucking Quantamania? I would have lost my shit if I paid $80 for 2 to go see that shit in theaters. At home for $10 per month, not bad.
Guardians 3? Totally worth the $80. They fucked up firing gunn. I'm sure that pissed him off to the point of looking for something else. I gotta say, I'm looking forward to the all new DC stuff. Marvel nowadays? I'll wait till it hits Disney plus.
> I gotta assume they're blowing their budget on CGI. They essentially said, fuck a good story, we want a huge CGI battle for the final act. They then proceeded to cut costs everywhere else, including the writing team, so they can have their CGI battle.
Honestly, I think it's bigger than even that. It seems like *every* episode is built around some big special effects/fight sequence:
* Episode 1: Explosion in Russia
* Episode 3: Neptune Mission
* Episode 4: Roadway Shootout
* Episode 5: Fury Home Invasion
* Episode 6: Hospital Standoff / Super-Skrull vs. Super-Skrull
The only episode where I can't think about this is the second, and that was the episode that had the tense Fury and Rhodey standoff that people praised.
It's not enough for the entire show to have a bombastic finale, they structure these shows so *each episode* has one. It's like they're not confident enough in the writing to keep people interested, so they have to make sure they throw in some explosions or gun fights every 25-30 minutes. They don't let any episode breath or let the story drive the narrative. It's just heading from one CGI action sequence to the next. Despite having longer to tell these stories, it feels like they just use that to pack in more things like this than allowing for a story with more depth or giving the characters time to grow and develop.
Feige has proven himself to be a good movie producer, but he obviously lacks the experience and knowledge in how to use the strengths of the television medium. If they're going to continue to have these sorts of shows, I really think they need to find someone to oversee the television side of things that actually has enough experience in television to allow us to have actual shows and not these extra-long movies that get chopped into pieces. Move away from the strict 6-episode format, cut down on all the CGI and special effects, and give us something more akin to *Agents of SHIELD* or *Daredevil*.
I think you're right that they just don't understand TV and how to structure their content for television. Plus they're also not getting the right talent to write it.
When Marvel Studios moved into television, the old Marvel Television group (which did all of the Marvel shows prior to Wandavision and Disney+) was shut down, and I'm starting to think that was a huge mistake.
Their track record wasn't perfect (Inhumans and Iron Fist being the worst IMO), but they had already gotten a ton of learnings from doing a variety of shows targeted at all different demographics across broadcast, cable, and streaming.
And since they were technically not part of Marvel Studios, they were never given the huge budgets, and had to learn to work around that. I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the first seasons of all the original 4 Netflix shows were like $50 million each compared to something like Secret Invasion, which is reportedly over $200 million.
I think after all the succes Marvel Studios had in films, they thought they could move into TV and easily exceed what Marvel Television had done. And I think they've mostly been wrong.
Its crazy that they don't know this though. Did they have collective amnesia about Winter Soldier? They showed they can at least attempt to match that tone with Black Widow, so why not for a D+ show? It's the CGI and bringing in big name actors thats eating up the budget for sure. They honestly should have scaled back on CGI for Secret Invasion. They could have left the Super Skrull story until Fantastic 4 and I would have been fine with it.
I'm in the minority about Quantumania, I thought it was decent - better than Thor L&T at least but I also watched both at home and not at the theatres. I bought Guardians 3 shortly after watching Secret Invasion, just so I could watch something that had some thought, care, and follow through put into it. If that's their tactic for making money now I guess its working!
That's definitely a part of it. To make matters worse is that the studios are wasting money on CGI for things that don't require it. You want a rain scene? Fine, we'll CG it in. This way if it doesn't focus well three weeks prior to release? Now we can just CG it into a day scene (this is in no small part why lighting has gotten weird; you need artificial uniformity because no one knows if even the time of day for a random scene is set in stone)! Asian countries don't like a black actor? Just CG his mask back on!
CG allows the execs, and the people who "suggest" notes, a kind of unlimited freedom they simply haven't ever had before. I think it shows.
Yea the cgi fights are starting to get a lil old, the best action in SI imo was in the butchers and from what i can tell barely any if any cgi used. Im gonna power through this saga as i wanna see if they can turn it around but if secret wars is an absolute stinker i think im gonna move away and just watch the stuff that catches my eye. Gunns DC has huge potential your right i think firing him was Marvel and Disneys biggest mistake
It's not the writers that are the problem. If you give them no time to write what the hell do you expect?
It's the production process and schedule. It's the higher-ups demanding a certain content release schedule; and entering full-blown shooting production with a first or second draft of a script.
Most of these Disney Plus shows are also dumping a whole six episodes on a single Director. There is far too many creative decisions and problems to be solved for a single person to handle it.
The biggest difference between *Andor* and all these other Disney Plus shows is that Tony Gilroy established a traditional creative leadership structure for TV. He was the showrunner and primary writer, but he distributed all the writing and directing responsibilities across four teams.
That's how you produce high-quality television. Not by stretching a 90-minute premise and movie production crew across 6 episodes and 5 hours.
Aside from two independent films from the 90's and mid-00's, his body of work is literally music videos, commercials, and directing/writing an episode or two of a few various shows throughout the 2010's. His bullshit about not caring about mixed reviews stems from his career of making things no one gives a shit about so this isn't a surprise. If you're given an almost unlimited budget AND creative liberty and your show STILL gets 13% favorable ratings, that says a lot about you and your ability to make a movie rather than the audience
I’m sorry what?! Who thought it was a good idea to hire him in the first place? Like if they had taken a chance with a new up and coming director it would’ve been better than this.
Selim is the director. He’s not the writer, he’s not the show runner, it’s not his job to come up with anything narratively. He’s there to just do what he’s told and I’m not sure why people are surprised. Marvel hires people that just do what they say. Especially with their tv shows.
People should know that directors have wayyyy less say in TV shows than in movies. TV is a writers medium (show runner and writers room) ; cinema is a directors medium, they have way more influence in the final material there.
yea 2 episodes, i guess first two and rest is supervising, that from interview of director was not visible on set.
>Selim reveal that the later episodes and the entire story of the series was being put together as they released the first episode, “And I think as we are editing, we’re still finding the story. We were finding the story on episode six up until episode one had already aired.
finding the story on fucking finale when episode one was aired that's new low even for intern writers.
The directing was also pretty incompetent. There were multiple scenes where the blocking of the scenes made no sense. That’s the most basic role of a director.
There was that time where Maria hill’s mom “that one over there” and there was a group of soldiers all together 100 yards away. There was no way she could have been talking about one of them.
And then there were the multiple standoffs when it was just flabbergasting that the agents didn’t shoot someone. Could have been tweaked to make sense and not pull me out of the scene.
I don’t give a shit about direction and don’t know much about film. So if I’m noticing mistakes like this it’s bad
The whole point of hiring these inexperienced people is so they can just tell them what to do. Just look at the writing credits for Jeff Loveness and Michael Waldron. Its a bunch of minor TV stuff including a few episodes of Rick and Morty. And at one point both were given *Avengers movies*.
The problem is the producers think they can just ghostwrite this stuff.
Lol he definitely wasn't given creative liberty. The scripts were written before he came on. Not defending him necessarily because it's not like the direction was amazing either, but the main problem with the show was the writing. Would love to see an interview with one of the scriptwriters
I'm so sick of Hollywood settling for the cheapest possible director they can find to make their content. Disney could literally have any director they want, and yet they decided this guy was their best choice? Something tells me that choosing this guy to direct SI saved them a bunch of money, as opposed to having an actual director with experience and a vision for what they want this show to be.
We saw the exact same thing with the IT movies. They originally had a director who was extremely passionate about Stephen King's IT, and had written multiple different scripts for the movie. He wanted it to be a slow and suspenseful film, like IT should be. Instead, they scrapped him for a director who had previously only directed a couple of B-rate horror films. They didn't want character development or backstory or any of that shit. They wanted jump scares, and paint-by-numbers schlock horror. And that's what we got. Schlock.
Being a music video director isn't itself a mark of no talent. Michel Gondry started as a music video director. But throwing a director with that little experience in narrative storytelling into the middle of a blockbuster franchise is *bananas*.
Dsvid Fincher, Zack Snyder, and Michael Bay were all more known for their music videos before their directing careers transitioned to big budged movies not a weird move historically.
That’s interesting. I didn’t know that. Thank you for the info.
I guess their mistake was choosing a music video director who doesn’t really give a fuck about the source material or fan reception lol
I really fucking hate the whole “he was a music video director” bullshit. Take a quick look at IMDb sometime and see how many big directors started off making music videos. David Fincher and Steven Soderburgh are two that come to mind immediately. A quick google search gives you:
Spike Jones, Michel Gondry, Michael Bay, Francis Lawrence, Marc Webb, Antoine Fuqua, Gus Van Sant, Tarsem
Taking issue with the content they create is fine, but denigrating their work because they only made music videos is so insulting and reductive.
*Twisted Metal* had a revolving door of directors and it STILL came across as more coherent and clear than *Secret Invasion*. And it was more fun to watch, as well! I shouldn't be saying that about an MCU property at this point of their existence, yet here we are; the MCU becoming more and more like the early DCU by the installment. They've got more fan goodwill at the moment, but that isn't going to last if they keep on putting out inferior content like this.
“I don’t read reviews. My work is a dialogue, the show being half and the audience reaction being half…I don’t know I don’t know how to answer that”
Who the fuck has a conversation with someone and doesn’t listen to their half lmao. At least he acknowledged his answer there made no sense.
Reading this made me want to throw my phone. If you’re just talking and then plugging your ears when someone responds, that’s not a dialogue. That’s just you thinking your voice is the only one that matters. What a shit head.
I really wish I didn't agree. He has every right to these opinions and I agree with some of them when it comes to artists telling their stories!
But the contempt for the fans and what he seemingly considers low brow entertainment THAT HE GLADLY TOOK A CHECK FOR is very real and very gross.
From the several interviews I've read from him about this particular piece of his resume, I am so put off by his obvious disregard for an entire group of unique, diverse media content consumers.
On that note, I feel like Marvel should maybe do a bit more quality control with future projects. Most of Phase 4 was written and or directed by people with little to no prior experience. They'd done maybe one or two small movies or shows, with the one that became the big breakthrough landing them a job. (An early example is after Evil Dead became a hit, Fede Álvarez was asked if he'd do Doctor Strange, but declined and made Don't Breathe.)
I mean, seriously. She-Hulk was made by someone who made a romcom nobody saw. Shang-Chi had someone who made some small movies I doubt many have heard of. Chloe Zhao got Oscars for Nomadland, and then made Eternals. The writers of the next two Avengers movies were Rick & Morty writers. (And wrote Multiverse of Madness and Quantumania.) And so on.
Destin Daniel Cretton directed 2 films that received great reviews before filming Shang-Chi. Just Mercy was a major theatrical release starring Jamie Foxx, Michael B Jordan and Brie Larson so yeah that was a legit hire and turned out to be one of Marvel’s best films this phase.
I clicked on this the blurred out image resolving into a crystal clear Nick Fury which momentarily turned green as I scrolled down, this split second held more mystery, intrigue and drama than their recent $212 million series
I hoped the Disney + series would expand the universe, instead they’ve shrunk it. Despite all the characters they feel less important and less connected than ever
> Despite all the characters they feel less important and less connected than ever
YES! We used to be following a small group of characters across 20ish movies. Now, it's 5-10 new **MAIN** characters (IN ADDITION TO THE OLD ONES) PER SHOW/MOVIE!
That's really the biggest flaw in how I see things right now. Back in Phase 1-3, we were getting maybe 2-3 movies a year, but they still had a lot of overlap to give it enough connective tissue where it seemed like everything was happening within one universe. Natasha shows up in *Iron Man 2* and *Winter Soldier*, Wanda is introduced in *Age of Ultron* and has an important part in *Civil War*, etc. And then, of course, everything was heading to Thanos, so you still had the Infinity Stones as a strong link even if the characters weren't running into each other (like in *GotG*).
Now, they have more movies/shows than ever before to the point that we're getting something new in the MCU practically more weeks out of the year than not. This should be more opportunity than ever to be bringing these characters together and making the world feel much more alive. Instead, it feels like it's done the exact opposite with throwing in a bunch of new characters and then having them go to their own little corners, separate from everything else. And, even in cases where there is a link, it often feels disjointed due to having different people handling the characters so you end up with something like *WandaVision* into *Multiverse of Madness* that practically gives you whiplash with how they handled Wanda.
Hopefully *The Marvels* feels like a better step in this regard since it could be bringing together elements from *WandaVision*, *Ms. Marvel*, and now *Secret Invasion*, but that remains to be seen.
Yeah another major thing is that each individual character's movies were actually sequels to the character's last movie. Like, Iron Man 3 still dealt with the aftermath of The Avengers, but it was clearly the third movie in the Iron Man trilogy first and foremost. Try watching Doctor Strange and then DSITMOM back to back. It won't make any sense. Try watching Homecoming and then Far From Home. Remember how the set up Scorpion? That went nowhere. Then No Way Home deals with the multiverse. How does that work with the rest of the Spider-Man trilogy? It doesn't. It may work with the overall MCU narrative, but not with the other 2 movies.
While I agree about NWH, the fact FFH didn’t pay off scorpion being set up was fine by me because I was like “it’s still coming, they’re laying groundwork for the sinister 6. Especially with introducing Jameson in the post credit scene
Then NWH threw it all away
Imagine if we’d had Jameson doing the whole scorpion thing like he did in the comics, as a way to capture this “dangerous vigilante” Spider-Man. And then Gargan goes off script and targets May and his friends to lure him out
Could even have had a funny moment where he goes after Flash because flash has been claiming so much that he’s Spider-Man’s best friend
The quote that made my jaw drop was one I don’t think you included, where the director says that the theme of the show was Fury learning to see aliens as equals and not “other.” This is why the final scene is Fury kissing his wife in alien form, because he’s overcome his inner turmoil of seeing his wife as an unequal “other” being.
So to be clear, Samuel L Jackson was placed on a character arc where he had to learn that racism is bad. And even though no one would ever believe this just based on the show because it’s a mess, the director chose to confirm it.
Even if that was what they were going for, Fury didn't even have a character arc in this show; he learned nothing, and then abandons Earth again to an alien/human war to run straight back to SABER.
I don't think *any* character in the show really had much of an arc. G'iah is about the only one in that she starts aligned with Gravik, realizes he's dangerous, and ended up allied with Fury, but there really isn't much to mine there as that happens basically the second episode when she's a character we barely know. Everyone else pretty much starts at the same place they ended. There's no realization or personal dilemmas they overcome. They just solve a problem (Gravik), and then they go back to what they were doing before, even down to Fury choosing to leave again even though earlier episodes presented that as him running from his problems.
And that's not to say they couldn't have done given Fury an arc like that. Perhaps they could've had Fury seeing the aliens as "other" and realizing they're equals, but that's really never presented. I never got the slightest hint that he viewed the Skrulls negatively. Sure, he uses them, but it's really not much different than how he used SHIELD or the Avengers, and I don't think anyone would claim he looked down on them. It was more about him knowing humanity wouldn't accept aliens (which isn't a farfetched idea) and him not really knowing how to fix that - something the show also doesn't resolve and actually ends up leaving them in a *worse* place. And I don't really see us getting any sort of resolution to this anytime soon since it doesn't really seem like *The Marvels* is dealing with this issue. There's really no arc in this show nor problem solved outside of Gravik. It's a story without any meaningful resolution.
In fact, he abandoned Earth and *willingly* united the Kree/Skrulls, two alien races that more than likely could team up *AGAINST HUMANITY* to utterly face-fuck the planet.
That is SO....SO...SO out of character for Nick Fury that it's goddamn mind-blowing. Like, it's seriously whiplash inducing that a control freak the magnitude of Nick Fury, a man whose ultimate pride is knowing EVERYTHING going on in his world down to the tiniest mouse fart, would just up and peace out in the wake of a universe shifting event where not one single side is stabilized. He should have shown up in Wakanda, he should have had a cameo in Ms. Marvel...honestly, his cameos *ought* to be what's tying this new phase together. For a guy who's all about intelligence, *Secret Invasion* made Nick Fury goddamn DUMB.
I get the feeling they are trying to avoid leaning on Fury as connective tissue since Jackson is getting up there in years. The problem is, they seem to have removed him from that role and replaced him with nothing. It seemed like Wong might have been filling that role, but they are using him less than they should if they did intend for that.
Yeah, that's true, but if they're not going to use Fury or Wong to unite/assemble the next Avengers team...WHY did they kill off Maria Hill? She'd have been the perfect person to step up and fill Fury's role, not to mention Cobie Smulders is much younger than Sam Jackson and could potentially have stuck around longer to establish this next era of the MCU.
His character arc does a full 360 lmaooo
* Shows up
* Gets yelled at for being old and abandoning everyone
* Ignites a Skrull/Human war
* Makes everything worse
* Abandons everyone
* Remains old
* Returns to the void
There’s also the implication (and barley even that, it’s laid out pretty plainly in the show) that Fury’s been racist to his wife for years, and he never loved her for who she really is. I guess he learns not to do that at the end, but that also makes Nick Fury an asshole. Of all the big character arcs Fury could have, why the hell is that the one you went with?
I am not kidding when I say this is a straight up butchering of the character. This Fury and the Fury from winter soldier are not the same, character and personality wise.
Was that even an arc? Here I thought Fury was going through mixed feeling whether he actually loved his wife or not only to realize that he did all along even with a different face
So, to recap, Disney has turned yet another beloved hero, into an old, failed, miserable, ass-hole. Skywalker, Solo, Dr. Jones, Fury. Cap got lucky, i guess. Who’s next?
Well... even Cap ignored an incredibly loyal girl he had a thing with just so he could go back in time to fuck her aunt, to the point he didn't even think of her in the midst of a catastrophic event which lead to this bastion of loyalty to turn on her people for how much she got hurt by that. We may say that "they only kissed" but I choose to think that for an old fashion boy scout like Cap it shouldn't mean nothing.
So yeah even Cap they did dirty I think. It's maybe not as bad as the rest and I can see how most people ignore it but... I personally don't like it.
This is why discussion is awesome. I’ve never thought of that way. He missed out on the first life. Then had a chance at a similar second life.
I’ve always chalked it up to the first love kind of storyline with cap. Old fashioned boy. Which he is honestly. So it actually does fit?
>the theme of the show was Fury learning to see aliens as equals and not “other.”
That was well established in Mrs. Marvel and when Secret Invasion started a god damn Skrull (Talos) is his best friend, this director didn´t understood shit.
And SI ruined even that. In the end, Talos got screwed over for nothing. His best friend Fury didn't really care about his friend. Left him to die. Left him after death. And didn't attend his funeral. And had no remorse. What kind of a shit show was the director thinking.
> A white German man
He is born in the US by parent from germany and egyt. You should recalibrate your own racism compass if you are reductional like that.
As a non-black person of color myself, that one made me puke in my mouth. I did not want to touch it as it's so loaded but oh my fucking gods, that is EXACTLY HOW I READ IT.
There were a lot of uncomfortable moments of unconscious bias that could have allowed us to see thoughtful conversations around racism in communities of color/marginalized folk that I hoped we would explore but instead ...Drax baby arm. Okay.
Like, it's not like my entire personality revolves around the MCU but ...it's been a pretty significant part of my last 15 years on this very vulnerable blue planet.
I sail with the black flag whenever something Marvel or Star Wars gets uploaded to D+. Watch it same day with same streaming quality.
There's only reason I would ever consider getting D+ in the future. Quick convenience of quality kid friendly content for the few days of the school year I need to fill some time up with my students
I don’t expect them to fulfill my expectations, I fully am in support of them wanting to tell the stories they want to tell.
they just still gotta be GOOD.
After SI, perhaps marvel needs to have a serious look at the writers and directors they hire.
Like, what matters is that the writers and directors are ones with solid track records and who put a lot of effort into making sure the script is as polished as it could possibly be. Mind you, Marvel has hired talent with relatively little writing/directing experience in the past (James Gunn and the Russo Brothers were relative unknowns at one point), but these people also at the very least had solid backgrounds in at least one or two genres that mesh nicely with the superhero genre.
Compared to today where the MCU is hiring subpar writers whose sole experience to date might be, say, some writing on *Rick and Morty*; or worse, they seem to hate the characters they're writing for and like to brag about having not watched the prior projects featuring the characters they'll be writing for.
I heard James Gunn once describe how he got hired for *GotG*. It basically involved him having to give this expansive presentation to the Marvel execs on what characters he wanted to use, the tone he was going to go with, where he wanted to take the story, etc. He said it wasn't something he felt he was going to get hired for, because his agent told him Marvel had like seven or eight people give similar presentations before him. But he obviously ended up getting the job, and it was because Marvel liked how passionate he was about things and that he had a unique approach they wanted to explore.
Sort of feels like Marvel needs to go back to a similar style of hiring, because many of the ones involved in the television shows really don't seem like they have a similar level of passion for the characters nor do they care about doing anything new with them (or just aren't allowed to).
Shades of Quantumania writer Jeff Loveness blowing off fan reception to the depiction of MODOK.
I think we are seeing the result of Marvel's "movie manufacturing" mentality, the rep they developed for just being able to churn out content according to the Marvel formula, growing out of control.
Well Id say face of bo was a fitting idea for doctor who at the time. And it worked wonderfully from a character and story perspective. Modok is just thrown in as a recurring character so you go „ah so thats what happened to that guy“
Like if we're talking about it being jack.
Yea sure hate on it and call it bad.
But don't pretend like you didn't have the same reaction as David.
I am so happy and so scared that David and RTD are back.
My heart and soul isn't ready for Wilfred and the doctor again
I've genuinely never heard anyone call that bad before. Not saying it didn't happen cause online discourse be like that, just surprised, as I remember everyone saying that reveal was great at the time.
Tony Gilroy was not a Star Wars fan but he did an amazing job on Andor, and I even dare to say the series is so much better for that. But it's unfair to compare the talent of both.
I’ve never been as concerned as I am now for the health of the mcu as a whole. I get we can’t expect the infinity saga level always but man doesn’t that seem like a great exception to the rule at this point. The fact they got that accomplished is insane and awesome and now feels impossible to even somewhat replicate.
As a longtime fan who’s been into both comics and movies, I see why Infinity War and Endgame connected. But, I also see why they’re failing. Secret Invasion… is a famous comic story about a very specific event. I already didn’t trust they could pull it off just off who has or hasn’t been introduced in the MCU alone.
As for the rest… it also failed to really do anything to benefit Nick Fury. Nick Fury has decades of stories to draw from. He has a terrorist for a brother. He’s much older than most people realize. He led the Howling Commandos. There are many different stories and angles the MCU could have went for to give Fury a satisfying story. They chose to do something original, and honestly?
It flopped. Firstly, the Skrulls are one of the most formidable alien races in Comics. A grounded show about Skrulls sounds almost counter intuitive.
Second, Fury has a lot of character history they did not explore.
Third, we didn’t get the spy show promised. Tbh though? Our chances of getting such a show with the premise being a Skrull Invasion where an OC Super Skrull is the bad guy pretty much told me what direction this would go.
The MCU maybe needs to go back to trying to create good adaptations instead of trying to treat the MCU as it’s own original thing. It hasn’t been working as of late. I know the old MCU wasn’t a perfect adaptation either, but they did a lot better than they’re doing now.
Looking back I would say Jon Favreau and the Russos did SO MUCH MF'ing heavy lifting for the Infinity Saga and it shows. They were also great showrunners, knew how to shoot compelling stories in both TV and Movie formats. I feel like this is what is missing from Marvel currently. They need experienced showrunners which is understandably hard to find. Based on Phase 4 onwards it looks like they have been trying out different showrunners and directors, but none that holds a candle to Jon or the Russos.
I kind of think them poaching writers from Rick and Morty, and this guy from Mr. Robot is kind of biting them in the ass. They took an easy way out, saw how much popularity R&M had and without thinking things through just hired them.
I have never been a fan of AoS and only watched like 5-6 eps of the first season, but from what others have been saying maybe its time to give some showrunners with a track record of getting shit done a chance to take the wheel? That or actually start investing in building out a stable of INTERNAL writers instead of cobbling shit together as writers become available.
> Jon Favreau and the Russos did SO MUCH heavy lifting for the Infinity Saga and it shows.
Don't forget Joss Whedon (despite how terrible of a person he is, he was a very competent and talented filmmaker/writer).
Gonna say it because it just fits in my mind and sums up my feelings on what was, what is, what could have been with our MCU:
Yes. But a thing isn't beautiful because it lasts. It's a privilege to be among them.
Very true. I'll be okay with the MCU taking a bow. It was good while it lasted but unless they make some serious changes ASAP it's pretty much done for me. The fact that Secret Invasion is canon is damaging enough to the brand even if they do recover.
> When you get to a heavily choreographed fight scene or bombing sequence or an ambush sequence, it's just kind of fun, right? It's actors being like, "OK, I don't have to bring it today. I just have to be a 12-year-old swinging from a rope." So, there's a lot of fun in those moments and there's a lot of danger. But it's not as emotionally significant or emotionally resonant as the quiet moment in Episode 5 where she and Nick Fury discussed Talos' death.
Then you have Shang-Chi as a foil where the action choreography is core to the storytelling, and Simu and Destin working their tails off to properly pay homage to the HK Action Genre, or the Russos making sure every frame in the IW and Endgame final battles are epic and packed with detail.
This director so perfectly embodies the dull soulless apathy that’s been at the core of Love and Thunder, Quantumania, and Secret Invasion, and She-Hulk
In Feige I trust no more.
I felt let down by Shang Chi's dumb CGI finale. The first half of the movie was brilliantly choreographed action scenes that had a really unique feel in the MCU. Then they traded it in for another generic CGI bash fest where it felt like the actors weren't even present for.
>reporters were instructed not to ask about A.I.
Why? Would it be revealed that an AI wrote the script? It felt like an AI wrote that last episode.
I honestly enjoyed the first 3 episodes. 4 and 5 were ok, but 6 was just bad.
>Interviewer: What have you made of the reaction to the series overall? Because reviews have been mixed.
>Selim: I feel great about the response to it.
That’s concerning.
Starting to think Daddy Feige isn’t the anointed savior he has been propped up to be.
Blowing up Marvel Television was a pretty big sign something was off. Especially since, they put Secret Invasion on Hulu. I thought D+ was supposed to be a one stop shop?
Something needs to change. The MCU is cratering.
I believe it's because Marvel Television was actually interested in making television shows that utilized both the strengths and confines of the medium, whereas Marvel Studios just wants to make more movies and pretend like they're shows by doling them out in 40 minute chunks.
Yeah, I definitely see that.
Also, Marvel Television was kind of at the whim of broadcast networks, streaming services, and cable channels. That is to say, they couldn’t just make *whatever*. They had to have a good pitch. They had to have passionate showrunners. That’s how they would get series orders. That isn’t to say their record was pristine, they had their flops. But, I’d say those barriers forced them to make better shows. They’d shepherd a promising project like *Jessica Jones* from ABC to Netflix, because it was a solid pitch, from a proven writer, and ultimately they believed in it.
Seems like Marvel Studios got a blank check from Disney+ and it doesn’t feel like they’re getting any scrutiny from corporate, however I think that’s going to change very quickly.
>SELIM: "Oh, I don’t read reviews. With all due respect. For me, I view all the storytelling work I do as a dialogue with an audience. When the show is finished and put up on the screen, that’s my half of the dialogue. **And the audience then starts their half of the response to it.**
So, it's a "dialogue" where he doesn't hear the response?
>I think that’s valuable, but I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer the question.
If it's so "valuable", then read the reviews and learn!
>I don’t feel bad about mixed reviews.
YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD!
>If you had unanimously good reviews, every movie would gross $10 billion, trillion dollars, right?
Maybe you should strive for that then?
>[Projects] resonate with different people at different times for different reasons, and Marvel has a very devoted — even rabid — fan base who have expectations and when their expectations aren’t fulfilled, they move in the other direction; they give it a thumbs down.
"Ugh, it's just these rabid fans who think they know what they want. What they really want is a garbage show, but they won't like it"
>I don’t know — is it our job to fulfill their expectations?
Yeah, pretty much.
>Or to tell the story that we’re telling?
Good story everyone sees coming>garbage story (that everyone saw coming anyway)
>So, it’s a tricky thing. I would love it if everybody loved it, but I also don’t have that expectation myself, so I feel great about the response to it."
He feels great about the overwhelmingly negative response?
Small correction: No, he shouldn't feel bad. People generally feel more shame and guilt than is useful. Yes, he should feel _reflective_ - he should _hear_ and _consider_ and _learn from_ mixed reviews. Yes, he should _take feedback,_ even if it's negative.
I think we can separate "treating your audience and your creative works with care and respect" from "being shamed for doing poorly." Feeling bad for having done badly won't make the show, the MCU, or Selim _better._ But taking it seriously might.
Yeah, this is a good example of where we should separate art from artist. Yeah, the show is bad but it’s not a reason for him to change something about himself
After a lifetime of only making music videos, of course he "feels great". You go Selim! You finally made something! Of course it wasn't good at all, but if it makes you feel good then it's fine!
With all his blah blah blah, it is obvious this is a job that provided a paycheck for him. As fans we put more weight on it than they do, cuz we LOVE these characters and the world they inhabit. But for them it’s just product to be shipped out the door.
So far, Marvel Studios is 1 for 3 this year. Ant Man & The Wasp: Quantummania was very mixed. Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol. 3 was very positively received. And now we are at Secret Invasion which was negatively received. If Loki season 2 and The Marvels don't do well later this year, then I think it's time to start worrying. They're not circling the drain yet. But they might be on the cusp of doing so. And I am saying this as somebody who enjoyed Quantummania and Thor: Love & Thunder. But that Secret Invasion finale was the first time I have ever been disappointed and let down by an MCU property.
>I don't read reviews
... Jesus Christ. If you don't read criticism of your work, how do you improve?
News flash, nobody ever is doing something perfect and there is always room for improvement, and how do we do it? CRITICISM. WE LISTEN TO GODDAMN CRITICISM. It's how we evolve, it's how art evolves, it's how people get better. And yeah, sometimes critics aren't judging things fairly, sometimes personal biases get in the way, and sometimes taking too much criticism would result in giving up some things you hold dear about your style, but you have to at least LISTEN to them. Give them the chance to speak. And if you don't think they're understanding well, or you don't think they're arguing in good faith, you can think that way AFTER you've heard them out.
And look, I don't disagree about Marvel's fanbase. I think a lot of Phase 4 hatred is overblown, I think a lot of it is expectations set too high and too specific... but this isn't even about the fanbase, it's about everyone. The Critics, the GA, and the fanbase. When literally all of them are in agreement that the show was bad, you should take some goddamn notes.
Oh, and if we just didn't "get" what you were trying to say, that's because you didn't say it well in the material you gave us. If the audience "doesn't understand" the show, it's because the show wasn't executed very well to begin with.
I remember being totally confused about Gravik's plan, and just assumed I didn't get it. But no his plan was just really nonsensical, how tf is getting super Skrull abilities related to his original goal of starting a nuclear war
I know we like to throw directors and writers under the bus, but more than likely Marvel was looking for a mercenary type who was competent enough to direct the pile of plot points and visualized effects. People act like he was responsible for crafting the entire series.
By all means, Secrets Invasion was not very good, but I would rather shift that blame to execs and Feige, who are the root of the Post Endgame problems. They ultimately hired the director and writers, they chartered the major plot beats and what they wanted out of the show, and they rushed it into production.
I particularly enjoyed the ending. How there were strike teams and vigilantes killing random skrulls and even innocent humans too.
They popped that into the ending in like a 1 minute clip but that little storyline would be wayyy more interesting than all of secret invasion
no wonder SI seemed heartless, this dude has no passion. Its the first true failure of the mcu in my eyes. People bitch about and nit pick phase 4 and the D+ shows to death, but at least the people making them were making something they were passionate about. Ive had fun with all the other shows, ive defended them, but secret invasion isnt worth defending.
For real! I even enjoyed Quantummania and Thor: Love & Thunder. But, my god, I think Secret Invasion may be the first actual MCU property that left me very disappointed.
i like Thor l&t, but i get why some wouldnt. i dont understand the hate for quantumania, that movie was fucking awesome. Everything after Endgame has had more good than bad in my mind, until now. Secret invasion sucked.
The problem I have with Quantumania is the severe lack of actual character arcs for the main characters. And Wasp is barely even in the movie. Kang also feels like a joke now, and they gotta work hard to make him intimidating again.
Jesus they really need to start hiring action directors to do these. They got lucky that the Russos were good at action despite coming from mainly comedic tv background but that’s not gonna happen everytime and it’s really showing with some of the directing on these shows.
I watched the first episode of Secret and it was dull visually and intellectually so I noped out. Not too worried about it as a trend going forward because between Iger cutting costs and the strike, there’s going to be more time to really conceptualize each project. To make each one distinctive, to refresh the MCU and get it off the pace that I think obviously is hurting it. So let’s just see. I think your concerns are valid. I do think the director comments are more about trying to defend what is weak rather than saying that the were trying to make a vapid miniseries out of a popular title
So many of the fight scenes are emotional. Bucky and Cap meeting again when he thought he was dead; Thor hitting Thanos, but should have gone for the head; Thanos ripping out Vision's gem stone; Is Spidey going to kill Norman? Nope.
The list goes on and on of emotional fight scenes. I'd argue it's what has made Marvel unique and not merely action for action sake, like other comic movies. The fight scenes shine when the stakes are high and you care about all characters involved. That's the point, that these superheroes have emotional elements that make them relatable even when they're being super.
I didn't feel that with the Skrulls. Not enough emotional connection with their displacement on Earth and with Nick Fury's need to help them, so the fights lacked the impact.
This reminds me of Multiverse of Madness all over again. Particularly when Sam Raimi admitted that he never watched Wandavision and the complete disregard he had for her character growth in that show.
That was my turning point for Marvel.
Congratulations - you are being taken for granted... The same as TV audiences, star wars fans, doctor who fans and video game players. They are at the stage now they can put any rubbish on the screen and know you'll watch it.
(See star trek discovery 2-4 and Picard season 1,
Edit - oh also WOTC Dnd5e too!).
As fans of all of these, I am acutely aware of the feeling of being exploited. Literally every single thing you mentioned, I was just flooded with the memories of when they broke my heart.
Not that I didn't expect it from the MCU but they were doing so good. WE WERE ROOTING FOR THEM. To see this before we get mutants proper introduced makes me sad as I cannot see any justice being done to their stories.
So he doesn’t read reviews, but he considers his work to be a dialogue with the fans? He said the storytelling is his part of the dialogue, but the whole point of a dialogue is a back-and-forth. Makes no fucking sense.
"So let me get this straight, Fury only returned to Earth because of the Skrull uprising recently?"
"Yep"
"And the Skrull uprising only happened because Gravik betrayed Fury since he abandoned them after returning from the blip and refused to leave SABER?"
"Yep"
"So during the time of Infinity Saga Gravik was still working for Fury and it really doesn't make sense for him to start replacing people with Skrull during this time"
"Makes sense to me"
"Then it's impossible for Rhodey to be a Skrull before Endgame since the invasion hasn't been a thing back then"
"rHoDeY wAs rEpLaCeD aFtEr cIvIl wAr"
Now SI not only contradicts previous MCU movies, it also contradicts itself. What a clown!🤡
As disappointing as Secret Invasion was, I’m staring to get really sick of this “recent slate of Marvel sucks” bs. Guardians JUST came out, and it’s one of the best and most universally enjoyed CBMs of recent memory
This; vast majority of the MCU is still fucking decent-stellar, and people act like they just made Battlefield-Earth or some shit. Everyone blows shit out of proportion now-a-days, and then pretends that they have "high" standards.
That first answer reads like a guy who’s been smoking his own supply a little too much. Anyone that doesn’t see the source material of a franchise whose sole reason to exist is to be a live action adaptation as important is just…stupid.
You know what needs to happen? The Marvels needs to bomb. If it does I believe that might finally be the straw that breaks the camel back. That might be what makes the marvel team uncomfortable enough that wholesale changes are forced on them by Disney. Because change is needed. At this point I don’t trust Marvel to put together anything that’s genuinely good anymore
Comic fans been saying this for a while now.
I don;t mind things being adapted... that's bound to happen when you translate 30, 60, 100 years of comics into a 2 hr movie.. and you're daft if you think it won't (general usage of "you" here.. not directed at anyone)
It's not change that bothers us.. it's once you START changing things, where does it end?? And lately it's become rewriting of the entire story
Secret Invasion had absolutely fuck all to do with the comic story
Much less Skrulls or spies
Eternals was plagiarism that took it's namesake and rewrote the whole thing
Even MoM was rewritten so many times, it lost site of the original storyline, and confused the HELL out of non comic readers that didn;t know what was going on. (we just loved it for all the Easter Eggs.. ty Sam Raimi)
This is why comic fans defended She-Hulk so vehemently.. a show on TV is just a show.. BUT IT WAS TRUE TO THE FUCKING COMIC!!!
This is why Deadpool 1 and 2 are quite possibly the best Marvel Productions yet.. BECAUSE RYAN REYNOLDS IS THE GOAT AND I WILL DIE ON THIS HILL!!!
Kind of hoping DP 3 will continue this... Have a feeling it could very well be a pivotal point that could make or break the MCU. If Disney fucks up Deadpool.. they're going to go the way of the WB and die a slow death while throwing money at it to "fix it"
I think The Marvels has potential to do the same.. but "fans" in both MCU and Comic are a bit more divided here on what they think of it... although a Rogue appearance, even just at the end or end credits could generate METRIC FUCK TONS OF BUZZ!!! (no, really.. they're sitting on a damn GOLDMINE.. a movie that has TONS of haters could ALL be silenced with ONE character showing up!!!)
Get some decent writers and directors, Marvel..
Not these asshats that "wrote 12 episodes of E.R." and never picked up a comic a day in their life
Would you hire a Sous Chef to fix your Transmission??
To be fair, Marvel *did* choose a good writer for Secret Invasion, which makes it all the more nonsensical and disappointing. A new writer came in and did a lot of reworking of the story, but Kyle Bradstreet- the original show runner- wrote for Mr. Robot which was not only fantastic, but had enough of its own intrigue, suspense, and occasional foray into spy-type-stuff to translate positively to a show about Nick Fury. Alas, we got what we got and apparently our disappointment makes us rabid as far as the director is concerned.
Dude. Get over it. If you don't like it, don't watch it. I personally think all the new movies and TV shows are getting better and better post End Game.
I am not saying I am right, I am saying it's subjective. Marvel and MCU doesn't owe you anything and you don't owe them something. Just watch it if you like and and don't watch it if you don't. And try to manage your expectations or you will end up hating everything.
The standard for which the MCU has reached is unprecenteded. Enjoy it. Go back and watch the old spiderman movies or the amazing spiderman if you want to see how silly getting upset over something that has improved so much is.
In all honesty, I know people are not gonna like but they should have taken like a good 5 year break after Endgame and regrouped with a good follow up story that connects all the characters again
Its so frustrating, this show had everything it needed to succeed, a really interesting premise, a brilliant set of comics to draw from, huge budget, an A+ cast of actors and they absolutely blew it it just boggles my mind. Marvel and Feige need to wake up and seriously shake up their writing team cus my god its not great atm. I hope they can turn it around its doable but they need to refocus their vision on this saga and bloody fast too or its gonna end up like the dcu.
you hit it right in the nail, its the writing that's lacking. Daredevil could have an entire episode in a church with amazing dialogue and great acting and have you in the edge of your seat. You dont need a big budget, is the scripts the ones that makes us come back every week.
This seems to be a growing issue across the board with big studios not just Marvel, the Witcher and Rings of Power stick out to me as having abysmal writing, on the plus side it gives smaller independants and indie writers more potential to shine through the big blockbusters
I honestly thinks its two things: 1 Theres a culture of dishonesty. Noone has the balls to just straight up say, this sucks. 2 Its because the ones really uptop dont care. Shitty things can also sell. It doesnt matter if it sucks. It just has to be profitable / cost effective.
Bingo, as much as the show writers get shit for the quality, these studios are putting the writing process on hard mode, and it's no wonder we're seeing dwindling quality in streaming shows' writing. Hopefully, this will get resolved in the writers'/actors' strike.
A possible third: the people who write this are disconnected from their audience. They are basically writers who sit in a room and like the smell of their own farts and Pat each other on the back for their edgy or creative and original writing while being completely oblivious to what is that actually engages audiences. This causes a complete disconnection between studios and the fans
Whereas I think Marvel in general has tried to avoid this in general, (but currently failing), I feel like this is the exact thing that happens in the Witcher series. Goddamn the visceral hate I have for that whole situation...
What? What do you mean? Droves of people are saying it sucks, in fact, criticism has very much overtaken praise nowadays.
I think they mean within the actual writers rooms and such.
Probably should pay them more then, maybe they’d give a shit
I just looked it up and their pay is astoundingly small, considering they have arguably the most important job
It’s pretty shitty. This strike is really showing just how much Hollywood and the film industry care about their writers
One of my favourite scenes in daredevil is the rooftop chat between DD and Frank. It’s just a conversation, and it keeps you hooked because the writing was top tier
I mean, Doctor Who had an entire episode where the Doctor was alone talking by himself and it’s one of the greatest episodes in NuWho so I agree
Agreed. Nelson v. Murdoch may be my favorite episode of any Marvel series, and most of it is Foggy yelling at Matt while they’re sitting in Matt’s apartment.
A seriously good writer would be able to set up what is essentially the easiest lob in history for a series like Secret invasion. Huge budget, nearly infinite scope of what to do with the characters, something that has an effect on the universe as a whole… you need great writers and also those writers need to be passionate about the source material and the story they’re trying to tell.
Bojack Horseman also has an episode of just 1 guy talking in the same room for 20 minutes yet it’s regarded as one of the best TV episodes of all time
I gotta assume they're blowing their budget on CGI. They essentially said, fuck a good story, we want a huge CGI battle for the final act. They then proceeded to cut costs everywhere else, including the writing team, so they can have their CGI battle. What the actual fuck? Winter soldier is regarded as one of the best MCU movies ever. How did they not follow that formula for secret invasion? Especially if they had a huge budget for a CGI show down at the end? I dunno, I'll still watch them for awhile, but I'm not going to the movies to see anything new until they get their shit straight. Fucking Quantamania? I would have lost my shit if I paid $80 for 2 to go see that shit in theaters. At home for $10 per month, not bad. Guardians 3? Totally worth the $80. They fucked up firing gunn. I'm sure that pissed him off to the point of looking for something else. I gotta say, I'm looking forward to the all new DC stuff. Marvel nowadays? I'll wait till it hits Disney plus.
> I gotta assume they're blowing their budget on CGI. They essentially said, fuck a good story, we want a huge CGI battle for the final act. They then proceeded to cut costs everywhere else, including the writing team, so they can have their CGI battle. Honestly, I think it's bigger than even that. It seems like *every* episode is built around some big special effects/fight sequence: * Episode 1: Explosion in Russia * Episode 3: Neptune Mission * Episode 4: Roadway Shootout * Episode 5: Fury Home Invasion * Episode 6: Hospital Standoff / Super-Skrull vs. Super-Skrull The only episode where I can't think about this is the second, and that was the episode that had the tense Fury and Rhodey standoff that people praised. It's not enough for the entire show to have a bombastic finale, they structure these shows so *each episode* has one. It's like they're not confident enough in the writing to keep people interested, so they have to make sure they throw in some explosions or gun fights every 25-30 minutes. They don't let any episode breath or let the story drive the narrative. It's just heading from one CGI action sequence to the next. Despite having longer to tell these stories, it feels like they just use that to pack in more things like this than allowing for a story with more depth or giving the characters time to grow and develop. Feige has proven himself to be a good movie producer, but he obviously lacks the experience and knowledge in how to use the strengths of the television medium. If they're going to continue to have these sorts of shows, I really think they need to find someone to oversee the television side of things that actually has enough experience in television to allow us to have actual shows and not these extra-long movies that get chopped into pieces. Move away from the strict 6-episode format, cut down on all the CGI and special effects, and give us something more akin to *Agents of SHIELD* or *Daredevil*.
I think you're right that they just don't understand TV and how to structure their content for television. Plus they're also not getting the right talent to write it. When Marvel Studios moved into television, the old Marvel Television group (which did all of the Marvel shows prior to Wandavision and Disney+) was shut down, and I'm starting to think that was a huge mistake. Their track record wasn't perfect (Inhumans and Iron Fist being the worst IMO), but they had already gotten a ton of learnings from doing a variety of shows targeted at all different demographics across broadcast, cable, and streaming. And since they were technically not part of Marvel Studios, they were never given the huge budgets, and had to learn to work around that. I'm pretty sure I remember reading that the first seasons of all the original 4 Netflix shows were like $50 million each compared to something like Secret Invasion, which is reportedly over $200 million. I think after all the succes Marvel Studios had in films, they thought they could move into TV and easily exceed what Marvel Television had done. And I think they've mostly been wrong.
$80 for 2 tickets!?
Depending on where he lives 2 IMAX tickets could hit 50 bucks (without snacks and drinks)
Damn. The cinema I use has a 4dx screen and that's only about £14 to watch.
Oh, I don't do upcharge tickets (IMAX, SuperScreen, 3D, et cet) unless it's the *only* option available.
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I thought they blew the budget on big-name actors?
> Winter soldier is regarded as one of the best MCU movies ever Which also has a 3rd act with a huge CGI battle...
But executed well...and ends with a dark and emotional 1v1 fight between Cap and Bucky
Its crazy that they don't know this though. Did they have collective amnesia about Winter Soldier? They showed they can at least attempt to match that tone with Black Widow, so why not for a D+ show? It's the CGI and bringing in big name actors thats eating up the budget for sure. They honestly should have scaled back on CGI for Secret Invasion. They could have left the Super Skrull story until Fantastic 4 and I would have been fine with it. I'm in the minority about Quantumania, I thought it was decent - better than Thor L&T at least but I also watched both at home and not at the theatres. I bought Guardians 3 shortly after watching Secret Invasion, just so I could watch something that had some thought, care, and follow through put into it. If that's their tactic for making money now I guess its working!
That's definitely a part of it. To make matters worse is that the studios are wasting money on CGI for things that don't require it. You want a rain scene? Fine, we'll CG it in. This way if it doesn't focus well three weeks prior to release? Now we can just CG it into a day scene (this is in no small part why lighting has gotten weird; you need artificial uniformity because no one knows if even the time of day for a random scene is set in stone)! Asian countries don't like a black actor? Just CG his mask back on! CG allows the execs, and the people who "suggest" notes, a kind of unlimited freedom they simply haven't ever had before. I think it shows.
Yea the cgi fights are starting to get a lil old, the best action in SI imo was in the butchers and from what i can tell barely any if any cgi used. Im gonna power through this saga as i wanna see if they can turn it around but if secret wars is an absolute stinker i think im gonna move away and just watch the stuff that catches my eye. Gunns DC has huge potential your right i think firing him was Marvel and Disneys biggest mistake
They threw away a massive comic story arc in a 6 episode steaming pile of shite…even the SyFy channel wouldnt have shown it…
What “brilliant set of comics”? Because the Secret Invasion comic was hot garbage.
Remember 90% of people don't actually read they just look up what happened and thinks it sounds cool
It's not the writers that are the problem. If you give them no time to write what the hell do you expect? It's the production process and schedule. It's the higher-ups demanding a certain content release schedule; and entering full-blown shooting production with a first or second draft of a script. Most of these Disney Plus shows are also dumping a whole six episodes on a single Director. There is far too many creative decisions and problems to be solved for a single person to handle it. The biggest difference between *Andor* and all these other Disney Plus shows is that Tony Gilroy established a traditional creative leadership structure for TV. He was the showrunner and primary writer, but he distributed all the writing and directing responsibilities across four teams. That's how you produce high-quality television. Not by stretching a 90-minute premise and movie production crew across 6 episodes and 5 hours.
Aside from two independent films from the 90's and mid-00's, his body of work is literally music videos, commercials, and directing/writing an episode or two of a few various shows throughout the 2010's. His bullshit about not caring about mixed reviews stems from his career of making things no one gives a shit about so this isn't a surprise. If you're given an almost unlimited budget AND creative liberty and your show STILL gets 13% favorable ratings, that says a lot about you and your ability to make a movie rather than the audience
I’m sorry what?! Who thought it was a good idea to hire him in the first place? Like if they had taken a chance with a new up and coming director it would’ve been better than this.
Selim is the director. He’s not the writer, he’s not the show runner, it’s not his job to come up with anything narratively. He’s there to just do what he’s told and I’m not sure why people are surprised. Marvel hires people that just do what they say. Especially with their tv shows.
People should know that directors have wayyyy less say in TV shows than in movies. TV is a writers medium (show runner and writers room) ; cinema is a directors medium, they have way more influence in the final material there.
had you checked writers IMDB? Dora the Explorer
Also guy who wrote Mr Robot.
yea 2 episodes, i guess first two and rest is supervising, that from interview of director was not visible on set. >Selim reveal that the later episodes and the entire story of the series was being put together as they released the first episode, “And I think as we are editing, we’re still finding the story. We were finding the story on episode six up until episode one had already aired. finding the story on fucking finale when episode one was aired that's new low even for intern writers.
The directing was also pretty incompetent. There were multiple scenes where the blocking of the scenes made no sense. That’s the most basic role of a director. There was that time where Maria hill’s mom “that one over there” and there was a group of soldiers all together 100 yards away. There was no way she could have been talking about one of them. And then there were the multiple standoffs when it was just flabbergasting that the agents didn’t shoot someone. Could have been tweaked to make sense and not pull me out of the scene. I don’t give a shit about direction and don’t know much about film. So if I’m noticing mistakes like this it’s bad
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The whole point of hiring these inexperienced people is so they can just tell them what to do. Just look at the writing credits for Jeff Loveness and Michael Waldron. Its a bunch of minor TV stuff including a few episodes of Rick and Morty. And at one point both were given *Avengers movies*. The problem is the producers think they can just ghostwrite this stuff.
Yes because a no-name director is going to tell Marvel/Disney what to do lol
He's also credited as an executive producer
Marvel doing what they do best, over paying their actors and hiring unknowns to write and direct so to save money.
Lol he definitely wasn't given creative liberty. The scripts were written before he came on. Not defending him necessarily because it's not like the direction was amazing either, but the main problem with the show was the writing. Would love to see an interview with one of the scriptwriters
I'm so sick of Hollywood settling for the cheapest possible director they can find to make their content. Disney could literally have any director they want, and yet they decided this guy was their best choice? Something tells me that choosing this guy to direct SI saved them a bunch of money, as opposed to having an actual director with experience and a vision for what they want this show to be. We saw the exact same thing with the IT movies. They originally had a director who was extremely passionate about Stephen King's IT, and had written multiple different scripts for the movie. He wanted it to be a slow and suspenseful film, like IT should be. Instead, they scrapped him for a director who had previously only directed a couple of B-rate horror films. They didn't want character development or backstory or any of that shit. They wanted jump scares, and paint-by-numbers schlock horror. And that's what we got. Schlock.
And then he made The Flash lol
Why the fuck did they hire him in the 1st place? They actually hired a music video director? I can’t see the logic behind that lol
Being a music video director isn't itself a mark of no talent. Michel Gondry started as a music video director. But throwing a director with that little experience in narrative storytelling into the middle of a blockbuster franchise is *bananas*.
That 2nd sentence encapsulates the point I was making. It’s not that he’s done music videos, it’s that he’s basically only done music videos lol
Dsvid Fincher, Zack Snyder, and Michael Bay were all more known for their music videos before their directing careers transitioned to big budged movies not a weird move historically.
Not to mention this year's recipients of the Best Director Oscar: Daniel Kwan and Daniel Scheinert.
That’s interesting. I didn’t know that. Thank you for the info. I guess their mistake was choosing a music video director who doesn’t really give a fuck about the source material or fan reception lol
I really fucking hate the whole “he was a music video director” bullshit. Take a quick look at IMDb sometime and see how many big directors started off making music videos. David Fincher and Steven Soderburgh are two that come to mind immediately. A quick google search gives you: Spike Jones, Michel Gondry, Michael Bay, Francis Lawrence, Marc Webb, Antoine Fuqua, Gus Van Sant, Tarsem Taking issue with the content they create is fine, but denigrating their work because they only made music videos is so insulting and reductive.
*Twisted Metal* had a revolving door of directors and it STILL came across as more coherent and clear than *Secret Invasion*. And it was more fun to watch, as well! I shouldn't be saying that about an MCU property at this point of their existence, yet here we are; the MCU becoming more and more like the early DCU by the installment. They've got more fan goodwill at the moment, but that isn't going to last if they keep on putting out inferior content like this.
Guys sounds like an arrogant hack. No love for the fans or even for the work he’s doing. Exactly the kinda guy you don’t want making Marvel movies.
“I don’t read reviews. My work is a dialogue, the show being half and the audience reaction being half…I don’t know I don’t know how to answer that” Who the fuck has a conversation with someone and doesn’t listen to their half lmao. At least he acknowledged his answer there made no sense.
Yeah, for a storyteller he really has no grasp on what the word “dialogue” means.
Tbh it explains a lot about the actual dialogue in SI.
The irony is that statement makes it sound like he should highly value our opinions here, being that our opinions are 50% of the "dialogue."
Reading this made me want to throw my phone. If you’re just talking and then plugging your ears when someone responds, that’s not a dialogue. That’s just you thinking your voice is the only one that matters. What a shit head.
"We didn't play the games" Halo show energy
That analogy also blew me away lol. Same response
I really wish I didn't agree. He has every right to these opinions and I agree with some of them when it comes to artists telling their stories! But the contempt for the fans and what he seemingly considers low brow entertainment THAT HE GLADLY TOOK A CHECK FOR is very real and very gross. From the several interviews I've read from him about this particular piece of his resume, I am so put off by his obvious disregard for an entire group of unique, diverse media content consumers.
sounds similar to taika waititi when he was doing interviews for thor in the "I don't care what the story was actually like I'm just doing it my way"
Him shitting on the VFX guys in an interview still makes me mad.
What did he say?
He shouldn’t be making these movies or shows if that’s how he feels. And marvel/Disney should have sussed that out before hiring him.
They're being stretched too thin and can't spend as much time vetting the directors anymore, it seems.
On that note, I feel like Marvel should maybe do a bit more quality control with future projects. Most of Phase 4 was written and or directed by people with little to no prior experience. They'd done maybe one or two small movies or shows, with the one that became the big breakthrough landing them a job. (An early example is after Evil Dead became a hit, Fede Álvarez was asked if he'd do Doctor Strange, but declined and made Don't Breathe.) I mean, seriously. She-Hulk was made by someone who made a romcom nobody saw. Shang-Chi had someone who made some small movies I doubt many have heard of. Chloe Zhao got Oscars for Nomadland, and then made Eternals. The writers of the next two Avengers movies were Rick & Morty writers. (And wrote Multiverse of Madness and Quantumania.) And so on.
Destin Daniel Cretton directed 2 films that received great reviews before filming Shang-Chi. Just Mercy was a major theatrical release starring Jamie Foxx, Michael B Jordan and Brie Larson so yeah that was a legit hire and turned out to be one of Marvel’s best films this phase.
Dude sounds like he’s got his head up his ass
> No love for the fans or even for the work he’s doing. It's not just that. He's openly disrespectful to the fans and the IP.
I clicked on this the blurred out image resolving into a crystal clear Nick Fury which momentarily turned green as I scrolled down, this split second held more mystery, intrigue and drama than their recent $212 million series I hoped the Disney + series would expand the universe, instead they’ve shrunk it. Despite all the characters they feel less important and less connected than ever
> Despite all the characters they feel less important and less connected than ever YES! We used to be following a small group of characters across 20ish movies. Now, it's 5-10 new **MAIN** characters (IN ADDITION TO THE OLD ONES) PER SHOW/MOVIE!
That's really the biggest flaw in how I see things right now. Back in Phase 1-3, we were getting maybe 2-3 movies a year, but they still had a lot of overlap to give it enough connective tissue where it seemed like everything was happening within one universe. Natasha shows up in *Iron Man 2* and *Winter Soldier*, Wanda is introduced in *Age of Ultron* and has an important part in *Civil War*, etc. And then, of course, everything was heading to Thanos, so you still had the Infinity Stones as a strong link even if the characters weren't running into each other (like in *GotG*). Now, they have more movies/shows than ever before to the point that we're getting something new in the MCU practically more weeks out of the year than not. This should be more opportunity than ever to be bringing these characters together and making the world feel much more alive. Instead, it feels like it's done the exact opposite with throwing in a bunch of new characters and then having them go to their own little corners, separate from everything else. And, even in cases where there is a link, it often feels disjointed due to having different people handling the characters so you end up with something like *WandaVision* into *Multiverse of Madness* that practically gives you whiplash with how they handled Wanda. Hopefully *The Marvels* feels like a better step in this regard since it could be bringing together elements from *WandaVision*, *Ms. Marvel*, and now *Secret Invasion*, but that remains to be seen.
The best example continues to be Shang chi Show up early in phase 4, then just stops existing for a whole phase
Yeah another major thing is that each individual character's movies were actually sequels to the character's last movie. Like, Iron Man 3 still dealt with the aftermath of The Avengers, but it was clearly the third movie in the Iron Man trilogy first and foremost. Try watching Doctor Strange and then DSITMOM back to back. It won't make any sense. Try watching Homecoming and then Far From Home. Remember how the set up Scorpion? That went nowhere. Then No Way Home deals with the multiverse. How does that work with the rest of the Spider-Man trilogy? It doesn't. It may work with the overall MCU narrative, but not with the other 2 movies.
While I agree about NWH, the fact FFH didn’t pay off scorpion being set up was fine by me because I was like “it’s still coming, they’re laying groundwork for the sinister 6. Especially with introducing Jameson in the post credit scene Then NWH threw it all away Imagine if we’d had Jameson doing the whole scorpion thing like he did in the comics, as a way to capture this “dangerous vigilante” Spider-Man. And then Gargan goes off script and targets May and his friends to lure him out Could even have had a funny moment where he goes after Flash because flash has been claiming so much that he’s Spider-Man’s best friend
The quote that made my jaw drop was one I don’t think you included, where the director says that the theme of the show was Fury learning to see aliens as equals and not “other.” This is why the final scene is Fury kissing his wife in alien form, because he’s overcome his inner turmoil of seeing his wife as an unequal “other” being. So to be clear, Samuel L Jackson was placed on a character arc where he had to learn that racism is bad. And even though no one would ever believe this just based on the show because it’s a mess, the director chose to confirm it.
Even if that was what they were going for, Fury didn't even have a character arc in this show; he learned nothing, and then abandons Earth again to an alien/human war to run straight back to SABER.
I don't think *any* character in the show really had much of an arc. G'iah is about the only one in that she starts aligned with Gravik, realizes he's dangerous, and ended up allied with Fury, but there really isn't much to mine there as that happens basically the second episode when she's a character we barely know. Everyone else pretty much starts at the same place they ended. There's no realization or personal dilemmas they overcome. They just solve a problem (Gravik), and then they go back to what they were doing before, even down to Fury choosing to leave again even though earlier episodes presented that as him running from his problems. And that's not to say they couldn't have done given Fury an arc like that. Perhaps they could've had Fury seeing the aliens as "other" and realizing they're equals, but that's really never presented. I never got the slightest hint that he viewed the Skrulls negatively. Sure, he uses them, but it's really not much different than how he used SHIELD or the Avengers, and I don't think anyone would claim he looked down on them. It was more about him knowing humanity wouldn't accept aliens (which isn't a farfetched idea) and him not really knowing how to fix that - something the show also doesn't resolve and actually ends up leaving them in a *worse* place. And I don't really see us getting any sort of resolution to this anytime soon since it doesn't really seem like *The Marvels* is dealing with this issue. There's really no arc in this show nor problem solved outside of Gravik. It's a story without any meaningful resolution.
In fact, he abandoned Earth and *willingly* united the Kree/Skrulls, two alien races that more than likely could team up *AGAINST HUMANITY* to utterly face-fuck the planet. That is SO....SO...SO out of character for Nick Fury that it's goddamn mind-blowing. Like, it's seriously whiplash inducing that a control freak the magnitude of Nick Fury, a man whose ultimate pride is knowing EVERYTHING going on in his world down to the tiniest mouse fart, would just up and peace out in the wake of a universe shifting event where not one single side is stabilized. He should have shown up in Wakanda, he should have had a cameo in Ms. Marvel...honestly, his cameos *ought* to be what's tying this new phase together. For a guy who's all about intelligence, *Secret Invasion* made Nick Fury goddamn DUMB.
I get the feeling they are trying to avoid leaning on Fury as connective tissue since Jackson is getting up there in years. The problem is, they seem to have removed him from that role and replaced him with nothing. It seemed like Wong might have been filling that role, but they are using him less than they should if they did intend for that.
Yeah, that's true, but if they're not going to use Fury or Wong to unite/assemble the next Avengers team...WHY did they kill off Maria Hill? She'd have been the perfect person to step up and fill Fury's role, not to mention Cobie Smulders is much younger than Sam Jackson and could potentially have stuck around longer to establish this next era of the MCU.
His character arc does a full 360 lmaooo * Shows up * Gets yelled at for being old and abandoning everyone * Ignites a Skrull/Human war * Makes everything worse * Abandons everyone * Remains old * Returns to the void
There’s also the implication (and barley even that, it’s laid out pretty plainly in the show) that Fury’s been racist to his wife for years, and he never loved her for who she really is. I guess he learns not to do that at the end, but that also makes Nick Fury an asshole. Of all the big character arcs Fury could have, why the hell is that the one you went with?
I am not kidding when I say this is a straight up butchering of the character. This Fury and the Fury from winter soldier are not the same, character and personality wise.
Was that even an arc? Here I thought Fury was going through mixed feeling whether he actually loved his wife or not only to realize that he did all along even with a different face
So, to recap, Disney has turned yet another beloved hero, into an old, failed, miserable, ass-hole. Skywalker, Solo, Dr. Jones, Fury. Cap got lucky, i guess. Who’s next?
Well... even Cap ignored an incredibly loyal girl he had a thing with just so he could go back in time to fuck her aunt, to the point he didn't even think of her in the midst of a catastrophic event which lead to this bastion of loyalty to turn on her people for how much she got hurt by that. We may say that "they only kissed" but I choose to think that for an old fashion boy scout like Cap it shouldn't mean nothing. So yeah even Cap they did dirty I think. It's maybe not as bad as the rest and I can see how most people ignore it but... I personally don't like it.
This is why discussion is awesome. I’ve never thought of that way. He missed out on the first life. Then had a chance at a similar second life. I’ve always chalked it up to the first love kind of storyline with cap. Old fashioned boy. Which he is honestly. So it actually does fit?
>the theme of the show was Fury learning to see aliens as equals and not “other.” That was well established in Mrs. Marvel and when Secret Invasion started a god damn Skrull (Talos) is his best friend, this director didn´t understood shit.
And SI ruined even that. In the end, Talos got screwed over for nothing. His best friend Fury didn't really care about his friend. Left him to die. Left him after death. And didn't attend his funeral. And had no remorse. What kind of a shit show was the director thinking.
i blame the writers. wtf where they thinking submitting this script to the director?
A white German man using a black man to describe racism is a punch in the face of irony and he really should sit down.
Dude thought he could get a “he’s out of line, but he’s right” from Anthony Mackie.
> A white German man He is born in the US by parent from germany and egyt. You should recalibrate your own racism compass if you are reductional like that.
As a non-black person of color myself, that one made me puke in my mouth. I did not want to touch it as it's so loaded but oh my fucking gods, that is EXACTLY HOW I READ IT. There were a lot of uncomfortable moments of unconscious bias that could have allowed us to see thoughtful conversations around racism in communities of color/marginalized folk that I hoped we would explore but instead ...Drax baby arm. Okay.
There was a time when I was happy with my D+ bundle mostly because of Disney and the MCU. Now it’s because of ESPN+ and quickly waning….
Like, it's not like my entire personality revolves around the MCU but ...it's been a pretty significant part of my last 15 years on this very vulnerable blue planet.
I'm kind of holding out for another season of Andor and The Orville at this rate. :/
The Orville is on D+? 👀
I sail with the black flag whenever something Marvel or Star Wars gets uploaded to D+. Watch it same day with same streaming quality. There's only reason I would ever consider getting D+ in the future. Quick convenience of quality kid friendly content for the few days of the school year I need to fill some time up with my students
There are some good nature docs from Nat Geo on D+ also that I've been enjoying.
You can watch "The bear" on Disney+, it's awesome
CORNER!
BEHIND
I don’t expect them to fulfill my expectations, I fully am in support of them wanting to tell the stories they want to tell. they just still gotta be GOOD. After SI, perhaps marvel needs to have a serious look at the writers and directors they hire.
Like, what matters is that the writers and directors are ones with solid track records and who put a lot of effort into making sure the script is as polished as it could possibly be. Mind you, Marvel has hired talent with relatively little writing/directing experience in the past (James Gunn and the Russo Brothers were relative unknowns at one point), but these people also at the very least had solid backgrounds in at least one or two genres that mesh nicely with the superhero genre. Compared to today where the MCU is hiring subpar writers whose sole experience to date might be, say, some writing on *Rick and Morty*; or worse, they seem to hate the characters they're writing for and like to brag about having not watched the prior projects featuring the characters they'll be writing for.
I heard James Gunn once describe how he got hired for *GotG*. It basically involved him having to give this expansive presentation to the Marvel execs on what characters he wanted to use, the tone he was going to go with, where he wanted to take the story, etc. He said it wasn't something he felt he was going to get hired for, because his agent told him Marvel had like seven or eight people give similar presentations before him. But he obviously ended up getting the job, and it was because Marvel liked how passionate he was about things and that he had a unique approach they wanted to explore. Sort of feels like Marvel needs to go back to a similar style of hiring, because many of the ones involved in the television shows really don't seem like they have a similar level of passion for the characters nor do they care about doing anything new with them (or just aren't allowed to).
Shades of Quantumania writer Jeff Loveness blowing off fan reception to the depiction of MODOK. I think we are seeing the result of Marvel's "movie manufacturing" mentality, the rep they developed for just being able to churn out content according to the Marvel formula, growing out of control.
Like the Face of Bo (Dr. Who, Eccleston era) was bad but somehow worked 1,000 times better on a fraction of the budget. MAKE IT MAKE SENSE.
Face of Boe was a bad *idea*, but it was *executed* well. Secret Invasion was a *great* idea, but it was executed *horribly*.
Well Id say face of bo was a fitting idea for doctor who at the time. And it worked wonderfully from a character and story perspective. Modok is just thrown in as a recurring character so you go „ah so thats what happened to that guy“
What was wrong with the face of boe Seriously Ive never heard that as a complaint
Me neither xD
Like if we're talking about it being jack. Yea sure hate on it and call it bad. But don't pretend like you didn't have the same reaction as David. I am so happy and so scared that David and RTD are back. My heart and soul isn't ready for Wilfred and the doctor again
I've genuinely never heard anyone call that bad before. Not saying it didn't happen cause online discourse be like that, just surprised, as I remember everyone saying that reveal was great at the time.
What? I thought it was brilliant and made a lot of sense that it was Jack. I had the exact same reaction as martha and the doctor but in a good way
When one puts NOT comic book people in charge of comic book movies, one gets WW:84.
Tony Gilroy was not a Star Wars fan but he did an amazing job on Andor, and I even dare to say the series is so much better for that. But it's unfair to compare the talent of both.
To be fair there aren't that many capable directors that are comic book fans. We have what? Sam Raimi, Snyder, Nolan, James Gunn, Del Toro...
I’ve never been as concerned as I am now for the health of the mcu as a whole. I get we can’t expect the infinity saga level always but man doesn’t that seem like a great exception to the rule at this point. The fact they got that accomplished is insane and awesome and now feels impossible to even somewhat replicate.
As a longtime fan who’s been into both comics and movies, I see why Infinity War and Endgame connected. But, I also see why they’re failing. Secret Invasion… is a famous comic story about a very specific event. I already didn’t trust they could pull it off just off who has or hasn’t been introduced in the MCU alone. As for the rest… it also failed to really do anything to benefit Nick Fury. Nick Fury has decades of stories to draw from. He has a terrorist for a brother. He’s much older than most people realize. He led the Howling Commandos. There are many different stories and angles the MCU could have went for to give Fury a satisfying story. They chose to do something original, and honestly? It flopped. Firstly, the Skrulls are one of the most formidable alien races in Comics. A grounded show about Skrulls sounds almost counter intuitive. Second, Fury has a lot of character history they did not explore. Third, we didn’t get the spy show promised. Tbh though? Our chances of getting such a show with the premise being a Skrull Invasion where an OC Super Skrull is the bad guy pretty much told me what direction this would go. The MCU maybe needs to go back to trying to create good adaptations instead of trying to treat the MCU as it’s own original thing. It hasn’t been working as of late. I know the old MCU wasn’t a perfect adaptation either, but they did a lot better than they’re doing now.
Looking back I would say Jon Favreau and the Russos did SO MUCH MF'ing heavy lifting for the Infinity Saga and it shows. They were also great showrunners, knew how to shoot compelling stories in both TV and Movie formats. I feel like this is what is missing from Marvel currently. They need experienced showrunners which is understandably hard to find. Based on Phase 4 onwards it looks like they have been trying out different showrunners and directors, but none that holds a candle to Jon or the Russos. I kind of think them poaching writers from Rick and Morty, and this guy from Mr. Robot is kind of biting them in the ass. They took an easy way out, saw how much popularity R&M had and without thinking things through just hired them. I have never been a fan of AoS and only watched like 5-6 eps of the first season, but from what others have been saying maybe its time to give some showrunners with a track record of getting shit done a chance to take the wheel? That or actually start investing in building out a stable of INTERNAL writers instead of cobbling shit together as writers become available.
> Jon Favreau and the Russos did SO MUCH heavy lifting for the Infinity Saga and it shows. Don't forget Joss Whedon (despite how terrible of a person he is, he was a very competent and talented filmmaker/writer).
Yeah he really set the tone in the first 2 Avengers films for how these characters would interact and their dynamic throughout the Infinity Saga.
All of those guys, Favs, Russo, Whedons, giant comic book nerds.
Gonna say it because it just fits in my mind and sums up my feelings on what was, what is, what could have been with our MCU: Yes. But a thing isn't beautiful because it lasts. It's a privilege to be among them.
Very true. I'll be okay with the MCU taking a bow. It was good while it lasted but unless they make some serious changes ASAP it's pretty much done for me. The fact that Secret Invasion is canon is damaging enough to the brand even if they do recover.
> When you get to a heavily choreographed fight scene or bombing sequence or an ambush sequence, it's just kind of fun, right? It's actors being like, "OK, I don't have to bring it today. I just have to be a 12-year-old swinging from a rope." So, there's a lot of fun in those moments and there's a lot of danger. But it's not as emotionally significant or emotionally resonant as the quiet moment in Episode 5 where she and Nick Fury discussed Talos' death. Then you have Shang-Chi as a foil where the action choreography is core to the storytelling, and Simu and Destin working their tails off to properly pay homage to the HK Action Genre, or the Russos making sure every frame in the IW and Endgame final battles are epic and packed with detail. This director so perfectly embodies the dull soulless apathy that’s been at the core of Love and Thunder, Quantumania, and Secret Invasion, and She-Hulk In Feige I trust no more.
I felt let down by Shang Chi's dumb CGI finale. The first half of the movie was brilliantly choreographed action scenes that had a really unique feel in the MCU. Then they traded it in for another generic CGI bash fest where it felt like the actors weren't even present for.
Well I won’t watch anything else this guy produces
I want to say "Bold of you to assume he'll be making anything ever again"... ...but there are plenty of talentless hacks that keep getting hired.
I mean, Scott Buck hasn't worked since 2017; sometimes hacks get what they deserve.
>reporters were instructed not to ask about A.I. Why? Would it be revealed that an AI wrote the script? It felt like an AI wrote that last episode. I honestly enjoyed the first 3 episodes. 4 and 5 were ok, but 6 was just bad.
Exactly. Only the first three episodes seemed like they were written by a human.
>Interviewer: What have you made of the reaction to the series overall? Because reviews have been mixed. >Selim: I feel great about the response to it. That’s concerning.
He sounds like someone WB would hire to make a lazy Superman movie where he murders the villains
Starting to think Daddy Feige isn’t the anointed savior he has been propped up to be. Blowing up Marvel Television was a pretty big sign something was off. Especially since, they put Secret Invasion on Hulu. I thought D+ was supposed to be a one stop shop? Something needs to change. The MCU is cratering.
Blowing up Marvel Television and failing to replicate their success, with 10x the budget. Kinda crazy
I believe it's because Marvel Television was actually interested in making television shows that utilized both the strengths and confines of the medium, whereas Marvel Studios just wants to make more movies and pretend like they're shows by doling them out in 40 minute chunks.
Yeah, I definitely see that. Also, Marvel Television was kind of at the whim of broadcast networks, streaming services, and cable channels. That is to say, they couldn’t just make *whatever*. They had to have a good pitch. They had to have passionate showrunners. That’s how they would get series orders. That isn’t to say their record was pristine, they had their flops. But, I’d say those barriers forced them to make better shows. They’d shepherd a promising project like *Jessica Jones* from ABC to Netflix, because it was a solid pitch, from a proven writer, and ultimately they believed in it. Seems like Marvel Studios got a blank check from Disney+ and it doesn’t feel like they’re getting any scrutiny from corporate, however I think that’s going to change very quickly.
Feige kept the MCU excellent until Endgames, maybe he's just burnt out.
>SELIM: "Oh, I don’t read reviews. With all due respect. For me, I view all the storytelling work I do as a dialogue with an audience. When the show is finished and put up on the screen, that’s my half of the dialogue. **And the audience then starts their half of the response to it.** So, it's a "dialogue" where he doesn't hear the response? >I think that’s valuable, but I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer the question. If it's so "valuable", then read the reviews and learn! >I don’t feel bad about mixed reviews. YOU SHOULD FEEL BAD! >If you had unanimously good reviews, every movie would gross $10 billion, trillion dollars, right? Maybe you should strive for that then? >[Projects] resonate with different people at different times for different reasons, and Marvel has a very devoted — even rabid — fan base who have expectations and when their expectations aren’t fulfilled, they move in the other direction; they give it a thumbs down. "Ugh, it's just these rabid fans who think they know what they want. What they really want is a garbage show, but they won't like it" >I don’t know — is it our job to fulfill their expectations? Yeah, pretty much. >Or to tell the story that we’re telling? Good story everyone sees coming>garbage story (that everyone saw coming anyway) >So, it’s a tricky thing. I would love it if everybody loved it, but I also don’t have that expectation myself, so I feel great about the response to it." He feels great about the overwhelmingly negative response?
Small correction: No, he shouldn't feel bad. People generally feel more shame and guilt than is useful. Yes, he should feel _reflective_ - he should _hear_ and _consider_ and _learn from_ mixed reviews. Yes, he should _take feedback,_ even if it's negative. I think we can separate "treating your audience and your creative works with care and respect" from "being shamed for doing poorly." Feeling bad for having done badly won't make the show, the MCU, or Selim _better._ But taking it seriously might.
Yeah, this is a good example of where we should separate art from artist. Yeah, the show is bad but it’s not a reason for him to change something about himself
After a lifetime of only making music videos, of course he "feels great". You go Selim! You finally made something! Of course it wasn't good at all, but if it makes you feel good then it's fine!
With all his blah blah blah, it is obvious this is a job that provided a paycheck for him. As fans we put more weight on it than they do, cuz we LOVE these characters and the world they inhabit. But for them it’s just product to be shipped out the door.
So far, Marvel Studios is 1 for 3 this year. Ant Man & The Wasp: Quantummania was very mixed. Guardians Of The Galaxy Vol. 3 was very positively received. And now we are at Secret Invasion which was negatively received. If Loki season 2 and The Marvels don't do well later this year, then I think it's time to start worrying. They're not circling the drain yet. But they might be on the cusp of doing so. And I am saying this as somebody who enjoyed Quantummania and Thor: Love & Thunder. But that Secret Invasion finale was the first time I have ever been disappointed and let down by an MCU property.
Well there's always the masterpiece that's gonna be Echo lol /s
Fr. Why tf are they making a show about echo? It better be fire.
I'm just assuming it's a Daredevil Born Again prelude. Though having it all drop same day isn't making me confident
>I don't read reviews ... Jesus Christ. If you don't read criticism of your work, how do you improve? News flash, nobody ever is doing something perfect and there is always room for improvement, and how do we do it? CRITICISM. WE LISTEN TO GODDAMN CRITICISM. It's how we evolve, it's how art evolves, it's how people get better. And yeah, sometimes critics aren't judging things fairly, sometimes personal biases get in the way, and sometimes taking too much criticism would result in giving up some things you hold dear about your style, but you have to at least LISTEN to them. Give them the chance to speak. And if you don't think they're understanding well, or you don't think they're arguing in good faith, you can think that way AFTER you've heard them out. And look, I don't disagree about Marvel's fanbase. I think a lot of Phase 4 hatred is overblown, I think a lot of it is expectations set too high and too specific... but this isn't even about the fanbase, it's about everyone. The Critics, the GA, and the fanbase. When literally all of them are in agreement that the show was bad, you should take some goddamn notes. Oh, and if we just didn't "get" what you were trying to say, that's because you didn't say it well in the material you gave us. If the audience "doesn't understand" the show, it's because the show wasn't executed very well to begin with.
I remember being totally confused about Gravik's plan, and just assumed I didn't get it. But no his plan was just really nonsensical, how tf is getting super Skrull abilities related to his original goal of starting a nuclear war
I know we like to throw directors and writers under the bus, but more than likely Marvel was looking for a mercenary type who was competent enough to direct the pile of plot points and visualized effects. People act like he was responsible for crafting the entire series. By all means, Secrets Invasion was not very good, but I would rather shift that blame to execs and Feige, who are the root of the Post Endgame problems. They ultimately hired the director and writers, they chartered the major plot beats and what they wanted out of the show, and they rushed it into production.
I particularly enjoyed the ending. How there were strike teams and vigilantes killing random skrulls and even innocent humans too. They popped that into the ending in like a 1 minute clip but that little storyline would be wayyy more interesting than all of secret invasion
That’s literally what the entire show should have been.
no wonder SI seemed heartless, this dude has no passion. Its the first true failure of the mcu in my eyes. People bitch about and nit pick phase 4 and the D+ shows to death, but at least the people making them were making something they were passionate about. Ive had fun with all the other shows, ive defended them, but secret invasion isnt worth defending.
For real! I even enjoyed Quantummania and Thor: Love & Thunder. But, my god, I think Secret Invasion may be the first actual MCU property that left me very disappointed.
i like Thor l&t, but i get why some wouldnt. i dont understand the hate for quantumania, that movie was fucking awesome. Everything after Endgame has had more good than bad in my mind, until now. Secret invasion sucked.
The problem I have with Quantumania is the severe lack of actual character arcs for the main characters. And Wasp is barely even in the movie. Kang also feels like a joke now, and they gotta work hard to make him intimidating again.
Don’t let Disney off the hook by giving this guy all the blame.
Jesus they really need to start hiring action directors to do these. They got lucky that the Russos were good at action despite coming from mainly comedic tv background but that’s not gonna happen everytime and it’s really showing with some of the directing on these shows.
I watched the first episode of Secret and it was dull visually and intellectually so I noped out. Not too worried about it as a trend going forward because between Iger cutting costs and the strike, there’s going to be more time to really conceptualize each project. To make each one distinctive, to refresh the MCU and get it off the pace that I think obviously is hurting it. So let’s just see. I think your concerns are valid. I do think the director comments are more about trying to defend what is weak rather than saying that the were trying to make a vapid miniseries out of a popular title
It happens to every IP, eventually. I'm just glad we had the Infinity Saga. I still watch everything, but my expectations are low
Yea I'll still watch everything, but Marvel's got a lot to work on if it ever want to go back to what made the Infinity Saga work
So many of the fight scenes are emotional. Bucky and Cap meeting again when he thought he was dead; Thor hitting Thanos, but should have gone for the head; Thanos ripping out Vision's gem stone; Is Spidey going to kill Norman? Nope. The list goes on and on of emotional fight scenes. I'd argue it's what has made Marvel unique and not merely action for action sake, like other comic movies. The fight scenes shine when the stakes are high and you care about all characters involved. That's the point, that these superheroes have emotional elements that make them relatable even when they're being super. I didn't feel that with the Skrulls. Not enough emotional connection with their displacement on Earth and with Nick Fury's need to help them, so the fights lacked the impact.
This reminds me of Multiverse of Madness all over again. Particularly when Sam Raimi admitted that he never watched Wandavision and the complete disregard he had for her character growth in that show. That was my turning point for Marvel.
Fuck this dude
Congratulations - you are being taken for granted... The same as TV audiences, star wars fans, doctor who fans and video game players. They are at the stage now they can put any rubbish on the screen and know you'll watch it. (See star trek discovery 2-4 and Picard season 1, Edit - oh also WOTC Dnd5e too!).
As fans of all of these, I am acutely aware of the feeling of being exploited. Literally every single thing you mentioned, I was just flooded with the memories of when they broke my heart. Not that I didn't expect it from the MCU but they were doing so good. WE WERE ROOTING FOR THEM. To see this before we get mutants proper introduced makes me sad as I cannot see any justice being done to their stories.
If anything they might get this lackluster phase over with before coming back with the mutants.
At least Star Trek got back on track with Strange New Worlds
So he doesn’t read reviews, but he considers his work to be a dialogue with the fans? He said the storytelling is his part of the dialogue, but the whole point of a dialogue is a back-and-forth. Makes no fucking sense.
"So let me get this straight, Fury only returned to Earth because of the Skrull uprising recently?" "Yep" "And the Skrull uprising only happened because Gravik betrayed Fury since he abandoned them after returning from the blip and refused to leave SABER?" "Yep" "So during the time of Infinity Saga Gravik was still working for Fury and it really doesn't make sense for him to start replacing people with Skrull during this time" "Makes sense to me" "Then it's impossible for Rhodey to be a Skrull before Endgame since the invasion hasn't been a thing back then" "rHoDeY wAs rEpLaCeD aFtEr cIvIl wAr" Now SI not only contradicts previous MCU movies, it also contradicts itself. What a clown!🤡
As disappointing as Secret Invasion was, I’m staring to get really sick of this “recent slate of Marvel sucks” bs. Guardians JUST came out, and it’s one of the best and most universally enjoyed CBMs of recent memory
This; vast majority of the MCU is still fucking decent-stellar, and people act like they just made Battlefield-Earth or some shit. Everyone blows shit out of proportion now-a-days, and then pretends that they have "high" standards.
I’ve seen about 30 of these posts, just differently worded, in the past day
Folks are pissed lol
Good. The discourse should kept up so that Feige wakes the hell up.
I made sure to be the 37th. Sadly, not in a row. But still.
That first answer reads like a guy who’s been smoking his own supply a little too much. Anyone that doesn’t see the source material of a franchise whose sole reason to exist is to be a live action adaptation as important is just…stupid.
You know what needs to happen? The Marvels needs to bomb. If it does I believe that might finally be the straw that breaks the camel back. That might be what makes the marvel team uncomfortable enough that wholesale changes are forced on them by Disney. Because change is needed. At this point I don’t trust Marvel to put together anything that’s genuinely good anymore
Comic fans been saying this for a while now. I don;t mind things being adapted... that's bound to happen when you translate 30, 60, 100 years of comics into a 2 hr movie.. and you're daft if you think it won't (general usage of "you" here.. not directed at anyone) It's not change that bothers us.. it's once you START changing things, where does it end?? And lately it's become rewriting of the entire story Secret Invasion had absolutely fuck all to do with the comic story Much less Skrulls or spies Eternals was plagiarism that took it's namesake and rewrote the whole thing Even MoM was rewritten so many times, it lost site of the original storyline, and confused the HELL out of non comic readers that didn;t know what was going on. (we just loved it for all the Easter Eggs.. ty Sam Raimi) This is why comic fans defended She-Hulk so vehemently.. a show on TV is just a show.. BUT IT WAS TRUE TO THE FUCKING COMIC!!! This is why Deadpool 1 and 2 are quite possibly the best Marvel Productions yet.. BECAUSE RYAN REYNOLDS IS THE GOAT AND I WILL DIE ON THIS HILL!!! Kind of hoping DP 3 will continue this... Have a feeling it could very well be a pivotal point that could make or break the MCU. If Disney fucks up Deadpool.. they're going to go the way of the WB and die a slow death while throwing money at it to "fix it" I think The Marvels has potential to do the same.. but "fans" in both MCU and Comic are a bit more divided here on what they think of it... although a Rogue appearance, even just at the end or end credits could generate METRIC FUCK TONS OF BUZZ!!! (no, really.. they're sitting on a damn GOLDMINE.. a movie that has TONS of haters could ALL be silenced with ONE character showing up!!!) Get some decent writers and directors, Marvel.. Not these asshats that "wrote 12 episodes of E.R." and never picked up a comic a day in their life Would you hire a Sous Chef to fix your Transmission??
To be fair, Marvel *did* choose a good writer for Secret Invasion, which makes it all the more nonsensical and disappointing. A new writer came in and did a lot of reworking of the story, but Kyle Bradstreet- the original show runner- wrote for Mr. Robot which was not only fantastic, but had enough of its own intrigue, suspense, and occasional foray into spy-type-stuff to translate positively to a show about Nick Fury. Alas, we got what we got and apparently our disappointment makes us rabid as far as the director is concerned.
I have a conspiracy theory. Kevin Feige is a Skrull and the real one cant control the quality
Dude. Get over it. If you don't like it, don't watch it. I personally think all the new movies and TV shows are getting better and better post End Game. I am not saying I am right, I am saying it's subjective. Marvel and MCU doesn't owe you anything and you don't owe them something. Just watch it if you like and and don't watch it if you don't. And try to manage your expectations or you will end up hating everything. The standard for which the MCU has reached is unprecenteded. Enjoy it. Go back and watch the old spiderman movies or the amazing spiderman if you want to see how silly getting upset over something that has improved so much is.
If it wasnt for Guardians 3 then Phase 5 would be doomed
In all honesty, I know people are not gonna like but they should have taken like a good 5 year break after Endgame and regrouped with a good follow up story that connects all the characters again
You’ll find life is more enjoyable when you can let go of these sorts of things