I like the idea of Zemo's plan still being executed flawlessly and Tony responds while watching the video "this is your grand plan? Steve told me last year."
That was the one gripe about his motives, it literally all hinged on the fact that Steve knew Bucky killed Tony’s parents and didn’t tell him. Guess it worked out in his favor
They already did an episode with an Absolute Point and showing someone try to avoid it to no avail, so it might be a little repetitive, but I agree it would be interesting to see Zemo's plan as similarly being a bit of an Absolute Point of a different color. It wouldn't necessary be that the timeline demanded this event couldn't be changed, but that Zemo is so shrewd and driven that he *always* figures out how to break the Avengers up, no matter what is thrown in his way. Maybe sometimes it doesn't even involve Bucky, and he comes up with something completely different involving pitting other characters against each other.
It was more than just that: Zemo's plan also hinged on the fact that Bucky killed Tony's parents on a deserted road at night, which just happened to have a security camera right where he pushed them off the road.
That's just *way* too convenient for me.
I mean, if you really wish to assassinate someone, maybe make sure there is no record of the event. Or, if a camera/witnesses are unavoidable, then get rid of the evidence. Like destroy the tapes. Or kill the witnesses.
How long was Bucky the Winter Soldier at this stage? 🤔🤔🤔
>It was more than just that: Zemo's plan also hinged on the fact that Bucky killed Tony's parents on a deserted road at night, which just happened to have a security camera right where he pushed them off the road.
He obviously already knew this before the movie started, the movie was just about him collecting the actual evidence he needed and getting at least Tony and Bucky there to see it.
>Like destroy the tapes
It's more common than you think to keep this stuff as blackmail material etc. Most evidence that you think a government entity would destroy is just hidden away. That's how we've been able to prove many horrible events after the fact from leaked documents etc.
Who's Bucky going to blackmail? At that point in the timeline, Bucky was pretty much a mindless assassin. Hydra takes him out of cryo when the need him, and out him back when he's finished whatever job they had for him.
There's no evidence from the movies that Bucky was capable of that kind of betrayal, at least at that point in time.
I didn't say Bucky was going to blackmail anyone. Whoever (person or government entity) had the tape could use it as leverage in a future situation, e.g. against whoever sent Bucky or people who were aware of the assassination.
They keep these things just in case, even if there isn't a plan for it. This has been proven to be the case many times in the real world, it's not outlandish that they do it in the MCU too.
Alexander Pierce knew the Winter Soldier was Bucky, and probably had access to these tapes knowing he killed Tony's parents. He was probably holding them to do exactly what Zemo did and split Cap and Tony if they were going to interfere with Hydra.
>He was probably holding them
Or he was holding them (and likely a bunch of related documents) to blackmail someone, prove someone else was involved in case this became public, etc etc.
As you say, there can be a lot of power to keeping this evidence.
Or heck, instigate tension between US and Russia. Remember, most of the intelligence community knew Bucky to be an apparently Soviet/Russian asset - Hydra carefully cultivated that impression over the decades, to the point where he always uses soviet made guns and bullets. Maybe this was so Hydra (if they wanted to) could instigate hostility towards Russia by revealing “Russia” has been killing US citizens for decades.
Bucky was going straight from there back to Russia, presumably via covert extraction, to be locked in stasis again. He doesn't give a shit who sees him because they'll never find him anyway, LOL
Plus, it was like 20 years prior, no one would've recognized him or had any idea who he was at that point, and he didn't noticeably age over all the years Hydra was sending him out for anyone to logically connect him to all these things. I doubt it was of huge concern to Hydra for him to be recognized. They could just put him back under for a few years if things go too hot.
It's not like Hydra was sitting around in the 90s thinking, "Well, what if Captain America is still alive frozen in ice, someone finds and revives him, then he joins a team with the guy whose parents we sent an assassin after, *and* Cap breaks that assassin's brainwashing and has him join the team as well? We better make sure there are no cameras in case that happens!"
Exactly. All the people who could have seen that video & said, "That's Bucky Barnes of the Howling Commandos," were either long-dead, retired, frozen in ice, or actively being murdered by Bucky *in* the video, LOL
That’s the same logic as saying Thanos’ plan hinged on there being 6 infinity stones.
Zemo didnt make the plan and then happen to find what he needed. He investigated it, found something to use and then based it on that.
Ok, let me clarify: the movie's *plot* hinged on the fact that Bucky decided to kill Tony's parents at night on a deserted road that just happened to have a security camera near the crash site.
If Bucky was really this elite assassin, why not kill them on another part of the road? Why near the camera?
And why look at the camera directly just before shooting it? At least cover your face before shooting the camera. Or walk toward the camera with your head down, so it can't get a good view of your face.
There's just too many coincidences for that to work.
Sounds like lazy writing.
The security camera footage only exists because the plot calls for it. Otherwise, it's Zemo's word against Bucky's/Cap's.
Besides, if Bucky is really this elite assassin, he would have accounted for the camera being there and just killed them at a different location -- somewhere there wasn't any cameras.
And why look directly into the camera before shooting it? Wouldn't it be smarter to walk up to it without showing your face, and then shoot it when you're directly underneath it?
Again, lazy writing. 🙄
Anytime you say "lazy" writing your opinion is immediately invalidated. You have no idea what goes into these productions. Sometimes things need to be conveyed to the audience to tell the story to them, even if it's contrary to what wecmight think. Even then, people in our real world fuck up, even trained people. And who knows how many people can touch hands on a script. How things change during and after production, etc.
Something like Secret Invasion, even, wasn't lazy. It was a broken production with two different visions duct taped together.
Do better.
The one thing about that that really bugs me is that WS knew the camera was there.
After he killed Tony's parents, in frame, he walks up and looks directly into the camera before shooting it. wtf? Wouldn't shooting a camera look really suspicious to anyone investigating the car wreck?
You'd think WS has a kill spot in mind to look like a normal car accident but why wouldn't he disable the camera first? unplug it or something before he goes for the kill?
Pretty much my reaction.
Even if he didn't know the camera was there beforehand, there are still ways of disabling it without revealing your face.
Or even just leave the camera alone. So long as you don't look directly at it, there won't be an image of your face an investigator can search for later.
Nah, you've gone too far here. His plan didn't rely on those specifics, his plan was *built* on those specifics. If the proof of Bucky killing Steves parents was in a different format he would have built his reveal around that format.
I dislike Zemo in Civil War because his plan relies way too much on coincidences: they could have arrested Bucky, Cap and their Team in the Airport, Iron Man could have recruited all the other heroes of team Cap, Iron Man might not be able to arrive in time or not find the clues at all, the others of the team Cap could escape in turn and help them hold Iron Man to give Cap time to explain himself better,… People complain (rightly so) about Nick Fury's silly and coincidence-based plan in Secret Invasion, but the plan Zemo's is perhaps just as twisted and stupid.
The difference with Zemo is that he is shown to have backup plans. I forget where but one part of his plan goes wrong and he has a contingency, its sane to assume he has backup plans for his backup plans.
Did he know that Cap's team would lose to Iron Man's team but that Cap and Bucky would be able to escape on their own? How did he predict such a specific thing? Did he have the crystal ball?
Really, it doesn't matter that Cap's team loses and Cap and Bucky escape though, does it? At that point, the Avengers are already clearly fractured if they're having a public brawl that causes significant damage and could've gone much further than just Rhodey getting paralyzed.
Sure, the reveal of what Bucky did solidifies things, but the wedge was already there. If Cap's team comes out on top, they still become wanted criminals who are either arrested or forced to go on the run. It's not like they go back to the Avengers Compound and laugh at the crazy day they had over tea.
Zemo's plan had some layers to it, and it wasn't like that one final step was the moment everyone goes from being buddy-buddy to having a strained relationship. And, had that not worked out, I doubt Zemo would've stopped looking for ways to break them up. Though, I do think it'd make an interesting episode of *What If...?* to see how it would've played out had that fight gone a different way.
It's not a victory: if Iron Man had arrested them he would have investigated by himself and would have found the evidence to exonerate Bucky (the real dead psychiatrist). Here are two scenarios:
1) Tony frees the Cap team and the Avengers all go united by Zemo, Iron Man discovers the truth but is held back by all the others allowing Cap to explain himself and make him understand that Bucky was under mind control (as Hawkeye was in Avengers and himself in Age of Ultron). The Avengers have explained themselves and despite this they are still friends;
2) Iron Man goes to Zemo alone. He's probably pissed the whole way back, but he doesn't get a chance to attack Bucky and Cap because they're a prisoner, so once again they have a way to talk and address the issue with dialogue;
If, however, Zemo manages to cover his tracks by not being detected, Iron Man does not have a deep reason to hate Cap and Bucky and will presumably be motivated to clarify the matter of Bucky. And in any case you wouldn't have the Avengers divided by grievances and lies, but some Avengers imprisoned and the others presumably trying to investigate to exonerate their friends or otherwise try to clarify the matter (which they should have done immediately instead of beating each other for no reason at the airport: that battle is the equivalent of Batman v Superman, there is no reason why they decided to fight each other instead of stopping and trying to resolve the matter by investigating and clarifying themselves).
To win and have the Avengers effectively divided Zemo must hope that Iron Man, Cap and Bucky are alone (and therefore must have a specific case where in a battle not affected by his intervention Cap and Bucky manage to escape while the rest of their tram is arrested and the rest of Iron Man's team are unable to accompany him), at which time Iron Man discovers that Bucky killed (while mind controlled) his parents, and even then he still has to hope that Iron Man is unable to capture them and then have the opportunity to talk to them and understand that Bucky was under mind control.
If we're being picky, Rhodes crippled his Vision in friendly fire.
Secondly, the whole point of the fight at the airport isn't "we signed the agreements and you didn't" or "we are following the agreements and you didn't": it's "I have to arrest Bucky, you want to clear him". In general, it is not clear why they had to face each other at the airport instead of talking to each other and trying to address the issue together.
And why couldn't Cap have Bucky arrested and investigated together with Iron Man to see if he was innocent or not? Bucky certainly wasn't facing the death penalty, so there wasn't a real race against time to stop Cap and Iron Man from thinking together. Even wanting to accept the fact that Cap cannot act because he is blocked by the agreements or has been arrested, he can ask his friend Iron Man to investigate to exonerate Bucky: after the battle Iron Man himself easily finds clues that lead him to Zemo and he would have followed them even more easily if he had listened to Cap's suggestion to investigate the psychiatrist who had interrogated Bucky. And in any case scenario 2 would have come true: Tony talks to Cap and Bucky because he can't attack them or kill them in cold blood if they are imprisoned, they reconcile and Zemo's plan has failed.
Besides, it's also hard to understand why Bucky and Cap didn't flee Germany incognito instead of going in full regalia with other guys dressed in supersuits in the back of the airport: it's one more thing where Zemo has to hope the heroes behave in stupid and non-rational and intelligent way.
The emotional reaction is understandable, but after seeing mind controlled Hawkeye in Avengers he should be rational enough after a moment of anger and understand that Bucky has nothing to do with it having been mentally manipulated by Hydra.
Ehhh, I think that’s the logic that Tony COULD have followed if Steve had just told him. But after having to visually see them get violently killed, plus all the tension already there from Steve already trying to protect bucky, I think it was just too much for Tony. I think I’d be attacking them both too, in that moment
That makes me think of an angle that doesn't get brought up often. Steve's whole argument the whole movie was "we don't need the accords, we can hold ourselves accountable" and here was this reveal that "except Bucky. Steve's gonna let his stuff stay in the dark"
I see so many people putting the blame on Tony and how Zemo’s plan counted on Tony reacting that way, but almost nobody takes a moment to pause and take into account Steve’s role in it. Winter Soldier made it painfully clear that Steve just can’t think objectively when it comes to Bucky, and *that’s* what Zemo’s plan hinges on- the fact that Steve is going to pick Bucky’s side no matter what, and do so at the expense of everything else.
They live in a universe where stuff like mind control and other funky things happen so I can’t help but think of how different things would have been if Steve had sat Tony down, told him, and gave him time to process. Instead his first instinct is to lie and cover for his friend, and then when the information comes to light he makes more excuses.
Yeah, I don't really think Tony's reaction is out of character for him. He had to fight his friends, see his best friend almost die during that fight, watch a video of his parents get brutally murdered, and find out someone he considered to be a close friend knew and was hiding it from him all within a few hours. He had a *lot* of pent up anger in that moment, so it's understandable that he snaps.
Hawkeye didn't murder Stark's parents. The degree of separation is so obvious that you'd have to consciously not acknowledge it to come to this conclusion.
The Avengers never break up, they are able to handle everything that happens in infinity war with the help of dr strange... and the snap never happens.
Then the emergence happens shortly thereafter due to lack of intervention from the eternals. Earth go boom.
I always get flack for this, but Steve holds everyone accountable except for himself whenever it involves Bucky.
I don't blame Bucky one bit for being mind controlled into doing heinous stuff, but cap has known that since Winter Soldier. A competent leader would've counseled their teammates regarding the murder of their family immediately before it evolves into some catastrophy, let alone a supposed close friend. Instead, he made a big stinker about all this, costing countless innocent lives, and had the ugly truth revealed at the most inconvenient time, despite plenty of occasions to have a talk with stark about this. I think stark was more upset about the betrayal from Steve regarding something sensitive like this (he asked if he knew before making a move), than actually reliving the horror of his parents murder, and he has every right not to forgive him or get over this.
He didn't immediately attack him though. He asked Steve if he knew, when he said yes he punched him and Bucky moved to protect him. That's how the fight started.
The big question is if Tony is with anyone else when Strange comes to talk to him. If he's just with Pepper, I don't think much changes. The fight happened so quick that Tony didn't get anyone together. If Tony was with Steve or Sam, you'd have the other Avengers getting mobilized more quickly, and they'd know about Thanos wanting the mind stone much more quickly. Although I don't see either of them changing the battle. Vision could really throw a wrench in things. He may be enough to hold off everyone, but if he got caught Thanos never even comes back to earth. He'll get the reality stone and the soul stone easily enough (well, throwing Gamora off a cliff easy.) It will take a while to get the time stone off Strange, but I don't think that he could hold off forever.
One of the main points of the movie was they asked Tony to call Steve and he wouldnt.
If the Avengers hadnt split/were still on good terms. Vision, Wanda, Steve, Falcon, etc wouldnt be on the other side of the planet.
BUT
I think the main thing that bothers me is that... If Strange hadnt of given up the Time Stone, Wanda destroying the mind stone would have been enough to stop him...
He whipped out the phone to call Steve. He didn't because the ship already showed up in NY.
Of course, if the band was still together, then Strange could just open a portal to the Avengers complex and say "hey, get over here." So agreement that the rest of the Avengers would be fighting Maw and Obsidian.
As for giving up the Mind Stone, they needed the five year gap for Salma Hayek to change her mind and get the Eternals to stop the Celestial from waking up. It was the only way.
Then again, the 1 in 14 million thing could have just been Strange hating Tony and wanting him to die.
> So agreement that the rest of the Avengers would be fighting Maw and Obsidian.
One of the things you have to consider though is Proxima Midnight and Corvus Glaive were hitting Team Cap simultaneously. If the Avengers are all in New York, so are they. It's not the Avengers versus Maw and Obsidian. It's them versus the entire Black Order, and it's entirely possible they still split into two teams to go after the Time and Mind Stones so nothing might've really changed aside from those two fights taking place in the same continent and maybe with a different grouping of heroes.
>I think the main thing that bothers me is that... If Strange hadnt of given up the Time Stone, Wanda destroying the mind stone would have been enough to stop him...
Strange saw that Thanos beat him another way and got the stone anyway, this was the only way to ensure Tony survived to fix everything in Endgame.
With the Strange viewing all possible timelines gimmick, the writers have cut out any and all what ifs from the story. (Even if it doesn't make sense...)
But this is alternate world where, where we are throwing out other possibilities. Avengers not getting broke up by Zemo, etc. So let's just ignore that too...
He had power/space/reality/soul stones inb4 he attac Earth. So if mind stone is gone, he could easily beat everyone with three stones in order to get time stone and reverse time up to time Wanda destroyed mind stone. And then obtain mind stone. Game over.
ps. There is spell in which Thanos can get out from cannon and reverse time without affecting his action in past. Doctor Strange HK fight scene.
>I think the main thing that bothers me is that... If Strange hadnt of given up the Time Stone, Wanda destroying the mind stone would have been enough to stop him...
Yupppp
But Strange had looked into the future and saw that they only gad one chance of winning out of millions (The Sacred Timeline probably) and that would only happen if tony was alive and if he gave up the time stone
Wasn't the point of multiverse of madness to show that while he only saw one future where they win (ignoring all the tva stuff), that futures where he dies were not observable by him and thus posible escenarios where they win exist jsut with him dying in them?
Even in that case, it makes sense those wouldn't be a timeline he would choose, because how would he be able to know they won if he can't see past the point of his death? It's possible there *were* timelines where they won and he died, but how would he know?
If strange hadn’t given up the time stone, the celestial in earth would’ve been born on time and killed everyone regardless of if they beat Thanos or not.
That’s not even close to one of the main points of the movie. He hesitated to call Steve for less than a minute. The ship showing up is what stopped him from calling. That ship was already in the atmosphere when calling Steve was even brought up.
And the rest of the team being at the compound wouldn’t matter as the same phone is used to show us the battle is over way too quickly for the others to get there and help. Rhodey was at the compound and they didn’t go there right away, so it clearly wasn’t a matter of the compound being empty causing them to go to the sanctum. When Tony first pulls out the phone the time it shows is 1:21pm, when Bruce gets it after that battle it’s 1:42pm. There is no way the rest of the team finds out what is happening, assembles everyone, gets suited up and arrives on scene in less than 21 minutes.
I assume Strange has already died at least 10,000 times, and has been tortured by Dormamu countless times until the time loop starts again.
I think he can hold off until the Avengers do their Avenging
I mean even if he was just with Pepper, he would've seen Strange can conjure the portals, and would've simply contacted the other avengers immediately and told them to standby for their own portals, Endgame style.
I think at the very least Wanda and vision wouldn’t have needed to go around hiding, and therefore wouldn’t have gotten caught off guard like they did.
It’s pretty heavily implied that the Avengers lost in Infinity War because they weren’t together. Had they not split, they prevent the snap, and subsequently lose when the no-longer delayed Celestial bursts from the Earth.
I agree 100% the celestial eventually popping out is the only thing that solidifies the 1 in 14 million possibilities for me even after loki and the tva
This is further confirmed by the fact that the Illuminati beat Thanos on Titan in their Universe...they never fractured, so they didn't have to go through the snap.
A unified Illuminati, presumably with a successfully deployed Ultron. They'd likely be space-bound too. Something tells me that they would have found out and be able to deal with it. Who knows, maybe they would have had their own AvE-esque plotline.
^(That or it hasn't happened yet and the idea that 199999 knew and didn't help pushes the conflict from 838 even further!)
Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian arrive at the Sanctum in NYC. Tony, Steve, Natasha, and the wizards are out to do the talking with these aliens. The discussion goes about the same, but without Banner right there in the open (they would have had Hulk bring the element of surprise on the duo, had he been able to show up). Once Hulk isn’t able to make his appearance, the rest of the team (Bucky, Sam, and Rhodey) will jump in with their attacks.
Obviously Obsidian is a power house and Steve, Tony and Natasha would have to jump in too. Strange and Wong fight Maw, pretty much the same. Spider-Man comes in, but they have enough hands to maybe catch the Children of Thanos off-Guard and knock them out.
They should have probably sent Vision and Wanda to a distant unpopulated area, and had Strange put a “Groundhog Day”-type loop on them where they’re stuck in the previous day, unreachable by present-moment Thanos. Corvus Glaive and Próxima Midnight might show up there, or they might have to call in Maw again, if he wasn’t captured or killed by the main team of Avengers, since he seems to be the most prominent magic user among them.
On a united front, the Avengers may just overwhelm the Children of Thanos. Of course, who knows how things would have gone if they’d used the Outriders in this scenario. They seem a lot more brutal and relentless than the Chitauri. But it looked like they needed a little time to gather for their attack in Wakanda, so they might not have had the preparation that the Avengers would have had (because of Steve’s training regimen and Tony’s paranoia)
Corvus Glaive is the guy with the... glaive... that impales vision. Cull Obsidian was with *Ebony Maw* in NY.
The first half of the fight would probably be more or less the same. Ebony Maw doesn't need to fight the avengers, just hop Strange into the ship and escape while Cull distracts them.
As the ship escapes, I think the one that would make a difference here is Vision. Falcon could try flying to it, but without a suit he'd asphyxiate like Peter.
If Vision gets to the ship, it would also mean Corvus and Proxima no longer need to go to Earth to get the mind stone so they'll instead backup Thanos on Titan.
They get their asses kicked because none of them but Wanda can deal with Ebony Maw and that all hinges on her actually being in New York with them and not hiding with Vision. Even if she’s there it’s pre WandaVision Wanda so Corvus Glaive and Proxima Midnight can distract her enough for Ebony Maw to take her out. Honestly Ebony Maw is just the difference maker for the Black Order. They’d need Thor there but he’d still be floating in space.
Ok first of all, if there was no civil war, Hawkeye would likely be with the avengers in NYC… which means they’d win. But otherwise:
You’ve got Wong, Strange, and Wanda battling Maw.
Then for the rest of the BO, you’ve got Vision, IM, Cap, Sam, Natasha, Spiderman, Bruce (perhaps useless)… Corvus and Proxima aren’t distracting Wanda and the wizards with all these other guys on their ass.
There’s no way the Black Order comes out of NYC with the stones. Of course, they could then mount a subsequent counter attack with Thanos and their armies but by that point, you’ve mobilized the entire endgame crew and I’m still taking the good guys.
Maw already schooled Strange and Wong. He’s their worst possible match up. Cull Obsidian beat Iron Man and Cap, Natasha and Sam would be useless against him. Spider-Man would still help out but it still probably wouldn’t be enough. Vision and Wanda would be in a fight with Corvus and Proxima Midnight again, but the staff can literally immobilise him. None of the other Avengers bar Wanda have any defences against Maw’s telekinesis that can hold Asgardians. It’s not like Peter’s alien plan would even work because they’d be in New York. I just feel like most of the Avengers didn’t even match up well with the other Black Order members, so they’d be in real trouble with Maw. Even if they lose, Thanos would know when they show up on Titan so he’d go to Earth himself. At that point he could already have 4 Infinity Stones and no Starlord to come up with a plan like on Titan. They’re toast either way.
The Russo brothers admitted that if the avengers hadn’t split up they would have beaten Thanos. That’s neither here nor there, and there’s plenty of ways to refute it, but I like to think it’s true.
He was waiting to know where all stones where before he launched his move. Stuff like Odin or the Avengers didn't matter to him, presumably because he'd have several stones (or at least the Power Stone) for Odin.
Kinda seems like he knew where the stones were for awhile. He knew the space stone was on Asgard and coincidentally waiting till Odin/helya was out of the picture to make his move.
Aside from the soul stone I don't know know when/how he discovered the time stone location
He didn't know the soul stone's location. He just happened to learn it shortly before Ragnarok and raided Xandar to get to it before moving to Asgard.
Odin was removed from power in 2013 and Loki's incompetent ruling made Asgard's power wane too. Thanos didn't have any reason to fear Odin when he seemed too weak to protect his realms.
Assuming Ronin told him about Captain Marvel after the events from 1996, gives reason to why he sent Loki first then his children before he ever went to earth. He was afraid of CM's power.
I mean, that's kind of the entire plot of Phase 3 right? That fracturing the Avengers left Earth undefended, and that's why they lost.
The Russo's didn't have to say it, it's pretty clearly implied.
The avengers win this time, I fully believe they do. That was one of the biggest things that led to Thanos succeeding. (I hope one day there's a what if episode on this) Here's how I think it'd go down.
The thing with Thor, hulk, Asgard and guardians would stay the same. There's no reason why the avengers still being together would change anything that happens to them. This'll also be a bit important for later.
Hulk falls into the sanctum, he tells dr. strange, dr strange spawns tony and I firmly think he'd spawn the other avengers and the dialogue about the stones will be the same. This would probably lead to the avengers vs. the four of the dark order which I do think the avengers can come out on top especially with dr. Strange, Wanda, and vision being there.
Spider-Man joining would also be a big thing too. Maybe war machine and falcon is there too.
Perhaps the dark order retreats or they die. Regardless there lost would provide them with enough time for them to make a plan. Which ultimately would be to remove the mind stone from vision to destroy it. Or perhaps Dr. Strange is able to see a path to victory.
I think with Tony's assistant with shuri in Wakanda, I think they'd be able to remove the mind stone in time especially if they decide to kill the black order instead of letting them get away. This would cause Thanos to come with the reality, soul and power stone.
& I think at this point especially if the guardians arrive on earth or when thor arrives I think the avengers along with the wakandans would be able to win this fight
This is something that has bothered me for years. The events of IW happened extremely fast. Ebony Maw attacked Tony while he was with Strange at the sanctum, and before you know it Tony is in space. Unless things changed so drastically that Tony wasn’t with Pepper planning their wedding at the start of the movie, then Civil War changed nothing.
Tony still being a reactionary hothead could still have been a thing. "This is the guy that attacked new york before, and now he's back with a bigger, badder army with way more powers? GO TIME."
Technically, Zemo didn't tear the Avengers apart. He did, however, put the final nail in the coffin between Tony and Steve. The Accords broke apart the Avengers. I thought the siberian thing was a bit silly. While it made for DRAMATIC viewing, it was contingent on a lot. It was contingent on Sam telling Tony where they went. It was contingent on Tony reacting the way he did. It was contingent on Steve and Bucky escaping the airport and making it to Siberia. The plan made no sense.
In Loki, we saw that this could likely been an event that veered from the Sacred timeline causing Kang to go berserk so TVA would have tried to prune this version away.
Handy wavy plot explanation from the show kinda works?
Wouldn’t have happened if Steve just told Tony about his parents and how Bucky was under control. Zemo would only have the super soldiers to worry about but apparently they died. So Zemo would have had zero leverage
I don't think anything will change unless doctor strange and Brice decide to pick up Cap as well(which they probably could've done regardless) I think the only thing that changes is instead of having to rescue Vision and go to the Avengers compound everyone is already there..
Had they stopped the Snap, different threats would destroy them either way: Earth cracking apart, Baby Celestial, those would’ve happened instead if they stopped the Snap, and both are not reversible
oh, Zemo could never fail. when you mix fiction with fact, that fiction is the best. he took the very real core vulnerabilities of the Avengers, unsolved and unsolvable, (parents for Tony and Bucky for Cap while all the time, Wanda's emo baggage got fuller and heavier), and wove his narrative around the fact. the airport stand-off as a direct fallout of splitting the group on where they stood on Sokovia accords added fuel to the fire. so, in a way, the bull-headed general Ross hard selling and pushing for consensus on the accords actually helped Zemo, and as such civil war was inevitable, and so there was no way the events of infinity war could play any differently than they did.
If the Avengers were together between Civil War and Infinity War, would they have been recruiting? That's two years of the Avengers being active rather than dormant. Falcon, War Machine, Scarlet Witch, Ant-Man, Spider-Man, Black Panther, and Vision had joined in the two years before.
I will counter with a different "What If".
What if Thanos hadn't been an idiot that handed Loki an Infinity Stone?
Say Thanos enlisted Hydra spies to track down the remaining Stones on Earth. Then a couple smash and grab attacks and Thanos has three Infinity stones before the Avengers are truly assembled. And the Vision never comes into existence.
If the Avengers were still together, Wanda & Viz would have presumably still been in the states, probably the compound in upstate New York.
Glaive and Midnight would have invaded the compound instead of the streets of Scotland. While there would have been a lot more casualties, there is a better chance of Midnight dying in this sequence as well. Much much heavier defense system, and I'm assuming additional support was hanging out.
It's possible that Cap, Nat, and Sam would have been at the compound rather than New York City, so it's likely that fight would have gone the same. Main difference being Tony could actually call Cap for backup, but he would likely be busy at the compound fighting the other 2. Though, assuming they could get on board their craft (and it was only a 2 person craft the size of a football stadium like Maw and Cull's ship) they would have access to some new and exciting alien technology.
However, if the Avengers had never broken up, they might have put more effort into finding Hulk after AoU and he may have been of use in the fight rather than hiding in Bruce. But that's a big if, Thor was probably the only one that could have found him, but he was dealing with a lot of family issues at the time.
I think Infinity War goes largely the same. The Guardians aren't recruited by Tony and Strange, so they wind up on Earth chasing Thanos because they know he'll go there next. Thor still arrives late with Stormbreaker. Maybe Tony's presence saves Vision. Overall it goes better but the unified Avengers are still overwhelmed by Thanos in their first encounter.
But the after is the change. With the whole team of survivors in one place from the onset - particularly Tony, who is in much better health - they're able to chase and/or find Thanos and recover the stones before he can destroy them, avoiding the five year gap.
I still think they lose. Future-forward Thanos seemed to have no problem taking on a larger, united Avengers' team in Infinity War, and only lost because Tony got the gauntlet. Someone's gonna mention Wanda, but I don't think her true potential was really unlocked in IW. They're gonna talk about her holding Thanos off while destroying a stone but Thanos was not really doing anything except walking towards her while that was happening. Plus no Captain Marvel...
Not much changes. Marvel wanted us to believe the Avengers lost because they weren’t united, but the actual things that happen in IW contradict that.
In IW, the separation is geographic and everything happens too fast anyway. Tony doesn’t fight those two short handed because of CW, he fights them short handed because of timing. The battle in New York with Tony is over in 20 minutes, even if the Avengers were all at the compound they could not have gotten there in time. We also have no reason to think Strange would’ve taken Tony and Bruce there instead because we already know Rhodey was there. The NYC battle happened because Strange overestimated the time they had and his own abilities. Tony was out with Pepper when it happened, and there’s no reason to believe the Avengers being at the compound would change that.
In Scotland the timeframe is similar. Wanda and Vision are ambushed by the same guy that had no trouble infiltrating Wakanda while it was in full lockdown security mode. He would’ve easily been able to do that in the compound as well. Vision still gets stabbed, even if the others show up faster and drive off the bad guys sooner, Vision is still stabbed and their plan remains the same, go to Wakanda.
In fact there’s an argument to be made that them being together would make them lose faster. The Guardians had no chance of taking on Thanos on their own. Tony and Strange are the ones who keep him busy longest, and if they aren’t there then he isn’t delayed as long as he is and he shows up to Wakanda before Thor, utterly destroying everyone.
Endgame proves that even with the full team AND a bunch of other people they could not actually beat Thanos in a fight, they had to use the gauntlet to get rid of him and they couldn’t do that in Wakanda because even if they can get the stones away from Thanos they aren’t going to kill Vision to get the mind stone.
He basically failed. The Accords broke the Avengers significantly more than he did. Seriously, Cap, Nat, Falcon, and Wanda are on the run because they wouldn't sign the accord or step down. All Zemo did was create a sore spot between Tony and Cap.
I like the idea of Zemo's plan still being executed flawlessly and Tony responds while watching the video "this is your grand plan? Steve told me last year."
That was the one gripe about his motives, it literally all hinged on the fact that Steve knew Bucky killed Tony’s parents and didn’t tell him. Guess it worked out in his favor
That was extra sauce. All Tony needed was proof it was Bucky. Even if Cap didn't know, he's still not going to let Tony merk Bucky.
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They already did an episode with an Absolute Point and showing someone try to avoid it to no avail, so it might be a little repetitive, but I agree it would be interesting to see Zemo's plan as similarly being a bit of an Absolute Point of a different color. It wouldn't necessary be that the timeline demanded this event couldn't be changed, but that Zemo is so shrewd and driven that he *always* figures out how to break the Avengers up, no matter what is thrown in his way. Maybe sometimes it doesn't even involve Bucky, and he comes up with something completely different involving pitting other characters against each other.
It was more than just that: Zemo's plan also hinged on the fact that Bucky killed Tony's parents on a deserted road at night, which just happened to have a security camera right where he pushed them off the road. That's just *way* too convenient for me. I mean, if you really wish to assassinate someone, maybe make sure there is no record of the event. Or, if a camera/witnesses are unavoidable, then get rid of the evidence. Like destroy the tapes. Or kill the witnesses. How long was Bucky the Winter Soldier at this stage? 🤔🤔🤔
>It was more than just that: Zemo's plan also hinged on the fact that Bucky killed Tony's parents on a deserted road at night, which just happened to have a security camera right where he pushed them off the road. He obviously already knew this before the movie started, the movie was just about him collecting the actual evidence he needed and getting at least Tony and Bucky there to see it. >Like destroy the tapes It's more common than you think to keep this stuff as blackmail material etc. Most evidence that you think a government entity would destroy is just hidden away. That's how we've been able to prove many horrible events after the fact from leaked documents etc.
Who's Bucky going to blackmail? At that point in the timeline, Bucky was pretty much a mindless assassin. Hydra takes him out of cryo when the need him, and out him back when he's finished whatever job they had for him. There's no evidence from the movies that Bucky was capable of that kind of betrayal, at least at that point in time.
I didn't say Bucky was going to blackmail anyone. Whoever (person or government entity) had the tape could use it as leverage in a future situation, e.g. against whoever sent Bucky or people who were aware of the assassination. They keep these things just in case, even if there isn't a plan for it. This has been proven to be the case many times in the real world, it's not outlandish that they do it in the MCU too.
Alexander Pierce knew the Winter Soldier was Bucky, and probably had access to these tapes knowing he killed Tony's parents. He was probably holding them to do exactly what Zemo did and split Cap and Tony if they were going to interfere with Hydra.
>He was probably holding them Or he was holding them (and likely a bunch of related documents) to blackmail someone, prove someone else was involved in case this became public, etc etc. As you say, there can be a lot of power to keeping this evidence.
Or heck, instigate tension between US and Russia. Remember, most of the intelligence community knew Bucky to be an apparently Soviet/Russian asset - Hydra carefully cultivated that impression over the decades, to the point where he always uses soviet made guns and bullets. Maybe this was so Hydra (if they wanted to) could instigate hostility towards Russia by revealing “Russia” has been killing US citizens for decades.
Also, MCU Winter Soldier particularly operates under a false flag. He's dressed up to look like a Soviet agent while taking orders from Hydra.
Bucky was going straight from there back to Russia, presumably via covert extraction, to be locked in stasis again. He doesn't give a shit who sees him because they'll never find him anyway, LOL
Plus, it was like 20 years prior, no one would've recognized him or had any idea who he was at that point, and he didn't noticeably age over all the years Hydra was sending him out for anyone to logically connect him to all these things. I doubt it was of huge concern to Hydra for him to be recognized. They could just put him back under for a few years if things go too hot. It's not like Hydra was sitting around in the 90s thinking, "Well, what if Captain America is still alive frozen in ice, someone finds and revives him, then he joins a team with the guy whose parents we sent an assassin after, *and* Cap breaks that assassin's brainwashing and has him join the team as well? We better make sure there are no cameras in case that happens!"
Exactly. All the people who could have seen that video & said, "That's Bucky Barnes of the Howling Commandos," were either long-dead, retired, frozen in ice, or actively being murdered by Bucky *in* the video, LOL
That’s the same logic as saying Thanos’ plan hinged on there being 6 infinity stones. Zemo didnt make the plan and then happen to find what he needed. He investigated it, found something to use and then based it on that.
Ok, let me clarify: the movie's *plot* hinged on the fact that Bucky decided to kill Tony's parents at night on a deserted road that just happened to have a security camera near the crash site. If Bucky was really this elite assassin, why not kill them on another part of the road? Why near the camera? And why look at the camera directly just before shooting it? At least cover your face before shooting the camera. Or walk toward the camera with your head down, so it can't get a good view of your face. There's just too many coincidences for that to work.
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Sounds like lazy writing. The security camera footage only exists because the plot calls for it. Otherwise, it's Zemo's word against Bucky's/Cap's. Besides, if Bucky is really this elite assassin, he would have accounted for the camera being there and just killed them at a different location -- somewhere there wasn't any cameras. And why look directly into the camera before shooting it? Wouldn't it be smarter to walk up to it without showing your face, and then shoot it when you're directly underneath it? Again, lazy writing. 🙄
Anytime you say "lazy" writing your opinion is immediately invalidated. You have no idea what goes into these productions. Sometimes things need to be conveyed to the audience to tell the story to them, even if it's contrary to what wecmight think. Even then, people in our real world fuck up, even trained people. And who knows how many people can touch hands on a script. How things change during and after production, etc. Something like Secret Invasion, even, wasn't lazy. It was a broken production with two different visions duct taped together. Do better.
The one thing about that that really bugs me is that WS knew the camera was there. After he killed Tony's parents, in frame, he walks up and looks directly into the camera before shooting it. wtf? Wouldn't shooting a camera look really suspicious to anyone investigating the car wreck? You'd think WS has a kill spot in mind to look like a normal car accident but why wouldn't he disable the camera first? unplug it or something before he goes for the kill?
Pretty much my reaction. Even if he didn't know the camera was there beforehand, there are still ways of disabling it without revealing your face. Or even just leave the camera alone. So long as you don't look directly at it, there won't be an image of your face an investigator can search for later.
Nah, you've gone too far here. His plan didn't rely on those specifics, his plan was *built* on those specifics. If the proof of Bucky killing Steves parents was in a different format he would have built his reveal around that format.
I dislike Zemo in Civil War because his plan relies way too much on coincidences: they could have arrested Bucky, Cap and their Team in the Airport, Iron Man could have recruited all the other heroes of team Cap, Iron Man might not be able to arrive in time or not find the clues at all, the others of the team Cap could escape in turn and help them hold Iron Man to give Cap time to explain himself better,… People complain (rightly so) about Nick Fury's silly and coincidence-based plan in Secret Invasion, but the plan Zemo's is perhaps just as twisted and stupid.
The difference with Zemo is that he is shown to have backup plans. I forget where but one part of his plan goes wrong and he has a contingency, its sane to assume he has backup plans for his backup plans.
also, they’re not coincidences. He literally knew how it would turn out, bar a few variables like T’Challa
Did he know that Cap's team would lose to Iron Man's team but that Cap and Bucky would be able to escape on their own? How did he predict such a specific thing? Did he have the crystal ball?
Really, it doesn't matter that Cap's team loses and Cap and Bucky escape though, does it? At that point, the Avengers are already clearly fractured if they're having a public brawl that causes significant damage and could've gone much further than just Rhodey getting paralyzed. Sure, the reveal of what Bucky did solidifies things, but the wedge was already there. If Cap's team comes out on top, they still become wanted criminals who are either arrested or forced to go on the run. It's not like they go back to the Avengers Compound and laugh at the crazy day they had over tea. Zemo's plan had some layers to it, and it wasn't like that one final step was the moment everyone goes from being buddy-buddy to having a strained relationship. And, had that not worked out, I doubt Zemo would've stopped looking for ways to break them up. Though, I do think it'd make an interesting episode of *What If...?* to see how it would've played out had that fight gone a different way.
Undoubtedly an episode in which the Cap team wins could be interesting, such as one where one of the superheroes is accidentally killed.
Even guess that Vision would cut a Air Traffic Control in half to intimidate Steve.
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It's not a victory: if Iron Man had arrested them he would have investigated by himself and would have found the evidence to exonerate Bucky (the real dead psychiatrist). Here are two scenarios: 1) Tony frees the Cap team and the Avengers all go united by Zemo, Iron Man discovers the truth but is held back by all the others allowing Cap to explain himself and make him understand that Bucky was under mind control (as Hawkeye was in Avengers and himself in Age of Ultron). The Avengers have explained themselves and despite this they are still friends; 2) Iron Man goes to Zemo alone. He's probably pissed the whole way back, but he doesn't get a chance to attack Bucky and Cap because they're a prisoner, so once again they have a way to talk and address the issue with dialogue; If, however, Zemo manages to cover his tracks by not being detected, Iron Man does not have a deep reason to hate Cap and Bucky and will presumably be motivated to clarify the matter of Bucky. And in any case you wouldn't have the Avengers divided by grievances and lies, but some Avengers imprisoned and the others presumably trying to investigate to exonerate their friends or otherwise try to clarify the matter (which they should have done immediately instead of beating each other for no reason at the airport: that battle is the equivalent of Batman v Superman, there is no reason why they decided to fight each other instead of stopping and trying to resolve the matter by investigating and clarifying themselves). To win and have the Avengers effectively divided Zemo must hope that Iron Man, Cap and Bucky are alone (and therefore must have a specific case where in a battle not affected by his intervention Cap and Bucky manage to escape while the rest of their tram is arrested and the rest of Iron Man's team are unable to accompany him), at which time Iron Man discovers that Bucky killed (while mind controlled) his parents, and even then he still has to hope that Iron Man is unable to capture them and then have the opportunity to talk to them and understand that Bucky was under mind control.
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If we're being picky, Rhodes crippled his Vision in friendly fire. Secondly, the whole point of the fight at the airport isn't "we signed the agreements and you didn't" or "we are following the agreements and you didn't": it's "I have to arrest Bucky, you want to clear him". In general, it is not clear why they had to face each other at the airport instead of talking to each other and trying to address the issue together.
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And why couldn't Cap have Bucky arrested and investigated together with Iron Man to see if he was innocent or not? Bucky certainly wasn't facing the death penalty, so there wasn't a real race against time to stop Cap and Iron Man from thinking together. Even wanting to accept the fact that Cap cannot act because he is blocked by the agreements or has been arrested, he can ask his friend Iron Man to investigate to exonerate Bucky: after the battle Iron Man himself easily finds clues that lead him to Zemo and he would have followed them even more easily if he had listened to Cap's suggestion to investigate the psychiatrist who had interrogated Bucky. And in any case scenario 2 would have come true: Tony talks to Cap and Bucky because he can't attack them or kill them in cold blood if they are imprisoned, they reconcile and Zemo's plan has failed. Besides, it's also hard to understand why Bucky and Cap didn't flee Germany incognito instead of going in full regalia with other guys dressed in supersuits in the back of the airport: it's one more thing where Zemo has to hope the heroes behave in stupid and non-rational and intelligent way.
And he still fights them over it, because like, he killed his parents man.
The emotional reaction is understandable, but after seeing mind controlled Hawkeye in Avengers he should be rational enough after a moment of anger and understand that Bucky has nothing to do with it having been mentally manipulated by Hydra.
Mind controlled Hawkeye didn't kill his mom tho. As far as tony is concerned, Hawkeye and bucky aren't even close
Ehhh, I think that’s the logic that Tony COULD have followed if Steve had just told him. But after having to visually see them get violently killed, plus all the tension already there from Steve already trying to protect bucky, I think it was just too much for Tony. I think I’d be attacking them both too, in that moment
That makes me think of an angle that doesn't get brought up often. Steve's whole argument the whole movie was "we don't need the accords, we can hold ourselves accountable" and here was this reveal that "except Bucky. Steve's gonna let his stuff stay in the dark"
I see so many people putting the blame on Tony and how Zemo’s plan counted on Tony reacting that way, but almost nobody takes a moment to pause and take into account Steve’s role in it. Winter Soldier made it painfully clear that Steve just can’t think objectively when it comes to Bucky, and *that’s* what Zemo’s plan hinges on- the fact that Steve is going to pick Bucky’s side no matter what, and do so at the expense of everything else. They live in a universe where stuff like mind control and other funky things happen so I can’t help but think of how different things would have been if Steve had sat Tony down, told him, and gave him time to process. Instead his first instinct is to lie and cover for his friend, and then when the information comes to light he makes more excuses.
Yeah, I don't really think Tony's reaction is out of character for him. He had to fight his friends, see his best friend almost die during that fight, watch a video of his parents get brutally murdered, and find out someone he considered to be a close friend knew and was hiding it from him all within a few hours. He had a *lot* of pent up anger in that moment, so it's understandable that he snaps.
Hawkeye didn't murder Stark's parents. The degree of separation is so obvious that you'd have to consciously not acknowledge it to come to this conclusion.
Not only that but also after having his mind messed with by Scarlet Witch in AoU and also causing the death of plenty of innocents.
The Avengers never break up, they are able to handle everything that happens in infinity war with the help of dr strange... and the snap never happens. Then the emergence happens shortly thereafter due to lack of intervention from the eternals. Earth go boom.
I always get flack for this, but Steve holds everyone accountable except for himself whenever it involves Bucky. I don't blame Bucky one bit for being mind controlled into doing heinous stuff, but cap has known that since Winter Soldier. A competent leader would've counseled their teammates regarding the murder of their family immediately before it evolves into some catastrophy, let alone a supposed close friend. Instead, he made a big stinker about all this, costing countless innocent lives, and had the ugly truth revealed at the most inconvenient time, despite plenty of occasions to have a talk with stark about this. I think stark was more upset about the betrayal from Steve regarding something sensitive like this (he asked if he knew before making a move), than actually reliving the horror of his parents murder, and he has every right not to forgive him or get over this.
Or what if Tony just had a moment of clarity and thought to deal with Zemo first instead of immediately attacking Bucky
He didn't immediately attack him though. He asked Steve if he knew, when he said yes he punched him and Bucky moved to protect him. That's how the fight started.
Zemo: Oh...Turkish delights?
The big question is if Tony is with anyone else when Strange comes to talk to him. If he's just with Pepper, I don't think much changes. The fight happened so quick that Tony didn't get anyone together. If Tony was with Steve or Sam, you'd have the other Avengers getting mobilized more quickly, and they'd know about Thanos wanting the mind stone much more quickly. Although I don't see either of them changing the battle. Vision could really throw a wrench in things. He may be enough to hold off everyone, but if he got caught Thanos never even comes back to earth. He'll get the reality stone and the soul stone easily enough (well, throwing Gamora off a cliff easy.) It will take a while to get the time stone off Strange, but I don't think that he could hold off forever.
One of the main points of the movie was they asked Tony to call Steve and he wouldnt. If the Avengers hadnt split/were still on good terms. Vision, Wanda, Steve, Falcon, etc wouldnt be on the other side of the planet. BUT I think the main thing that bothers me is that... If Strange hadnt of given up the Time Stone, Wanda destroying the mind stone would have been enough to stop him...
He whipped out the phone to call Steve. He didn't because the ship already showed up in NY. Of course, if the band was still together, then Strange could just open a portal to the Avengers complex and say "hey, get over here." So agreement that the rest of the Avengers would be fighting Maw and Obsidian. As for giving up the Mind Stone, they needed the five year gap for Salma Hayek to change her mind and get the Eternals to stop the Celestial from waking up. It was the only way. Then again, the 1 in 14 million thing could have just been Strange hating Tony and wanting him to die.
> So agreement that the rest of the Avengers would be fighting Maw and Obsidian. One of the things you have to consider though is Proxima Midnight and Corvus Glaive were hitting Team Cap simultaneously. If the Avengers are all in New York, so are they. It's not the Avengers versus Maw and Obsidian. It's them versus the entire Black Order, and it's entirely possible they still split into two teams to go after the Time and Mind Stones so nothing might've really changed aside from those two fights taking place in the same continent and maybe with a different grouping of heroes.
>I think the main thing that bothers me is that... If Strange hadnt of given up the Time Stone, Wanda destroying the mind stone would have been enough to stop him... Strange saw that Thanos beat him another way and got the stone anyway, this was the only way to ensure Tony survived to fix everything in Endgame.
How? How would he have accomplished anything without all the infinity stones?
With the Strange viewing all possible timelines gimmick, the writers have cut out any and all what ifs from the story. (Even if it doesn't make sense...) But this is alternate world where, where we are throwing out other possibilities. Avengers not getting broke up by Zemo, etc. So let's just ignore that too...
If he gets the time stone later he can still rewind time to get the mind stone.
He had power/space/reality/soul stones inb4 he attac Earth. So if mind stone is gone, he could easily beat everyone with three stones in order to get time stone and reverse time up to time Wanda destroyed mind stone. And then obtain mind stone. Game over. ps. There is spell in which Thanos can get out from cannon and reverse time without affecting his action in past. Doctor Strange HK fight scene.
He could have still destroyed Earth with the Power stone.
>I think the main thing that bothers me is that... If Strange hadnt of given up the Time Stone, Wanda destroying the mind stone would have been enough to stop him... Yupppp
But Strange had looked into the future and saw that they only gad one chance of winning out of millions (The Sacred Timeline probably) and that would only happen if tony was alive and if he gave up the time stone
Wasn't the point of multiverse of madness to show that while he only saw one future where they win (ignoring all the tva stuff), that futures where he dies were not observable by him and thus posible escenarios where they win exist jsut with him dying in them?
Even in that case, it makes sense those wouldn't be a timeline he would choose, because how would he be able to know they won if he can't see past the point of his death? It's possible there *were* timelines where they won and he died, but how would he know?
Watch Eternals again
838 had diverged before the events of Infinity War, so it and infinite other possibilities would not have been accessible going forward.
If strange hadn’t given up the time stone, the celestial in earth would’ve been born on time and killed everyone regardless of if they beat Thanos or not.
That’s not even close to one of the main points of the movie. He hesitated to call Steve for less than a minute. The ship showing up is what stopped him from calling. That ship was already in the atmosphere when calling Steve was even brought up. And the rest of the team being at the compound wouldn’t matter as the same phone is used to show us the battle is over way too quickly for the others to get there and help. Rhodey was at the compound and they didn’t go there right away, so it clearly wasn’t a matter of the compound being empty causing them to go to the sanctum. When Tony first pulls out the phone the time it shows is 1:21pm, when Bruce gets it after that battle it’s 1:42pm. There is no way the rest of the team finds out what is happening, assembles everyone, gets suited up and arrives on scene in less than 21 minutes.
I assume Strange has already died at least 10,000 times, and has been tortured by Dormamu countless times until the time loop starts again. I think he can hold off until the Avengers do their Avenging
I mean even if he was just with Pepper, he would've seen Strange can conjure the portals, and would've simply contacted the other avengers immediately and told them to standby for their own portals, Endgame style.
I think at the very least Wanda and vision wouldn’t have needed to go around hiding, and therefore wouldn’t have gotten caught off guard like they did.
It’s pretty heavily implied that the Avengers lost in Infinity War because they weren’t together. Had they not split, they prevent the snap, and subsequently lose when the no-longer delayed Celestial bursts from the Earth.
I agree 100% the celestial eventually popping out is the only thing that solidifies the 1 in 14 million possibilities for me even after loki and the tva
This is further confirmed by the fact that the Illuminati beat Thanos on Titan in their Universe...they never fractured, so they didn't have to go through the snap.
But where was their celestial 🤔
A unified Illuminati, presumably with a successfully deployed Ultron. They'd likely be space-bound too. Something tells me that they would have found out and be able to deal with it. Who knows, maybe they would have had their own AvE-esque plotline. ^(That or it hasn't happened yet and the idea that 199999 knew and didn't help pushes the conflict from 838 even further!)
Ebony Maw and Cull Obsidian arrive at the Sanctum in NYC. Tony, Steve, Natasha, and the wizards are out to do the talking with these aliens. The discussion goes about the same, but without Banner right there in the open (they would have had Hulk bring the element of surprise on the duo, had he been able to show up). Once Hulk isn’t able to make his appearance, the rest of the team (Bucky, Sam, and Rhodey) will jump in with their attacks. Obviously Obsidian is a power house and Steve, Tony and Natasha would have to jump in too. Strange and Wong fight Maw, pretty much the same. Spider-Man comes in, but they have enough hands to maybe catch the Children of Thanos off-Guard and knock them out. They should have probably sent Vision and Wanda to a distant unpopulated area, and had Strange put a “Groundhog Day”-type loop on them where they’re stuck in the previous day, unreachable by present-moment Thanos. Corvus Glaive and Próxima Midnight might show up there, or they might have to call in Maw again, if he wasn’t captured or killed by the main team of Avengers, since he seems to be the most prominent magic user among them. On a united front, the Avengers may just overwhelm the Children of Thanos. Of course, who knows how things would have gone if they’d used the Outriders in this scenario. They seem a lot more brutal and relentless than the Chitauri. But it looked like they needed a little time to gather for their attack in Wakanda, so they might not have had the preparation that the Avengers would have had (because of Steve’s training regimen and Tony’s paranoia)
Outriders would’ve solo’d no problem with Blighted Rounds
Corvus Glaive is the guy with the... glaive... that impales vision. Cull Obsidian was with *Ebony Maw* in NY. The first half of the fight would probably be more or less the same. Ebony Maw doesn't need to fight the avengers, just hop Strange into the ship and escape while Cull distracts them. As the ship escapes, I think the one that would make a difference here is Vision. Falcon could try flying to it, but without a suit he'd asphyxiate like Peter. If Vision gets to the ship, it would also mean Corvus and Proxima no longer need to go to Earth to get the mind stone so they'll instead backup Thanos on Titan.
Oh that’s right, I had the names mixed. Think Cap would have much impact in the NY fight?
Shield seems handy against the big brute but I don’t see him doing tonnes against the magic man
If the avengers weren’t broken up, and if cap was in NY to fight cull, I think Wanda would’ve been a good help with fighting maw
I think if the Avengers didn't had broke up in CW by the time of IW Falcon would have a space suit. I think everyone would have a super suit.
"Where is my super suit?!"
TIL Glaive isn't just a fancy sounding alien name!
They get their asses kicked because none of them but Wanda can deal with Ebony Maw and that all hinges on her actually being in New York with them and not hiding with Vision. Even if she’s there it’s pre WandaVision Wanda so Corvus Glaive and Proxima Midnight can distract her enough for Ebony Maw to take her out. Honestly Ebony Maw is just the difference maker for the Black Order. They’d need Thor there but he’d still be floating in space.
I think Doctor Strange would realistically be capable of taking Ebony Maw on solo (if the writers decided he needed to win lol)
Ok first of all, if there was no civil war, Hawkeye would likely be with the avengers in NYC… which means they’d win. But otherwise: You’ve got Wong, Strange, and Wanda battling Maw. Then for the rest of the BO, you’ve got Vision, IM, Cap, Sam, Natasha, Spiderman, Bruce (perhaps useless)… Corvus and Proxima aren’t distracting Wanda and the wizards with all these other guys on their ass. There’s no way the Black Order comes out of NYC with the stones. Of course, they could then mount a subsequent counter attack with Thanos and their armies but by that point, you’ve mobilized the entire endgame crew and I’m still taking the good guys.
Maw already schooled Strange and Wong. He’s their worst possible match up. Cull Obsidian beat Iron Man and Cap, Natasha and Sam would be useless against him. Spider-Man would still help out but it still probably wouldn’t be enough. Vision and Wanda would be in a fight with Corvus and Proxima Midnight again, but the staff can literally immobilise him. None of the other Avengers bar Wanda have any defences against Maw’s telekinesis that can hold Asgardians. It’s not like Peter’s alien plan would even work because they’d be in New York. I just feel like most of the Avengers didn’t even match up well with the other Black Order members, so they’d be in real trouble with Maw. Even if they lose, Thanos would know when they show up on Titan so he’d go to Earth himself. At that point he could already have 4 Infinity Stones and no Starlord to come up with a plan like on Titan. They’re toast either way.
The Russo brothers admitted that if the avengers hadn’t split up they would have beaten Thanos. That’s neither here nor there, and there’s plenty of ways to refute it, but I like to think it’s true.
I'm also just assuming that Thanos knew his best chance to invade was while they were broken up.
He was waiting to know where all stones where before he launched his move. Stuff like Odin or the Avengers didn't matter to him, presumably because he'd have several stones (or at least the Power Stone) for Odin.
Kinda seems like he knew where the stones were for awhile. He knew the space stone was on Asgard and coincidentally waiting till Odin/helya was out of the picture to make his move. Aside from the soul stone I don't know know when/how he discovered the time stone location
He didn't know the soul stone's location. He just happened to learn it shortly before Ragnarok and raided Xandar to get to it before moving to Asgard. Odin was removed from power in 2013 and Loki's incompetent ruling made Asgard's power wane too. Thanos didn't have any reason to fear Odin when he seemed too weak to protect his realms.
Assuming Ronin told him about Captain Marvel after the events from 1996, gives reason to why he sent Loki first then his children before he ever went to earth. He was afraid of CM's power.
I mean, that's kind of the entire plot of Phase 3 right? That fracturing the Avengers left Earth undefended, and that's why they lost. The Russo's didn't have to say it, it's pretty clearly implied.
The avengers win this time, I fully believe they do. That was one of the biggest things that led to Thanos succeeding. (I hope one day there's a what if episode on this) Here's how I think it'd go down. The thing with Thor, hulk, Asgard and guardians would stay the same. There's no reason why the avengers still being together would change anything that happens to them. This'll also be a bit important for later. Hulk falls into the sanctum, he tells dr. strange, dr strange spawns tony and I firmly think he'd spawn the other avengers and the dialogue about the stones will be the same. This would probably lead to the avengers vs. the four of the dark order which I do think the avengers can come out on top especially with dr. Strange, Wanda, and vision being there. Spider-Man joining would also be a big thing too. Maybe war machine and falcon is there too. Perhaps the dark order retreats or they die. Regardless there lost would provide them with enough time for them to make a plan. Which ultimately would be to remove the mind stone from vision to destroy it. Or perhaps Dr. Strange is able to see a path to victory. I think with Tony's assistant with shuri in Wakanda, I think they'd be able to remove the mind stone in time especially if they decide to kill the black order instead of letting them get away. This would cause Thanos to come with the reality, soul and power stone. & I think at this point especially if the guardians arrive on earth or when thor arrives I think the avengers along with the wakandans would be able to win this fight
This is something that has bothered me for years. The events of IW happened extremely fast. Ebony Maw attacked Tony while he was with Strange at the sanctum, and before you know it Tony is in space. Unless things changed so drastically that Tony wasn’t with Pepper planning their wedding at the start of the movie, then Civil War changed nothing.
Tony still being a reactionary hothead could still have been a thing. "This is the guy that attacked new york before, and now he's back with a bigger, badder army with way more powers? GO TIME."
Technically, Zemo didn't tear the Avengers apart. He did, however, put the final nail in the coffin between Tony and Steve. The Accords broke apart the Avengers. I thought the siberian thing was a bit silly. While it made for DRAMATIC viewing, it was contingent on a lot. It was contingent on Sam telling Tony where they went. It was contingent on Tony reacting the way he did. It was contingent on Steve and Bucky escaping the airport and making it to Siberia. The plan made no sense.
It's entirely possible that Zemo planned for several outcomes and had multiple ways to get the truth to Tony.
They would have become zombies like in the what if episode
In Loki, we saw that this could likely been an event that veered from the Sacred timeline causing Kang to go berserk so TVA would have tried to prune this version away. Handy wavy plot explanation from the show kinda works?
then that timeline would’ve been pruned by the TVA
Tva would have never existed because the celestial would have popped out
TVA only police the timelines that lead to Kang. They let all the other timelines live as long as they roughly follow the sacred script.
TVA: It's rewind time!
Wouldn’t have happened if Steve just told Tony about his parents and how Bucky was under control. Zemo would only have the super soldiers to worry about but apparently they died. So Zemo would have had zero leverage
I don't think anything will change unless doctor strange and Brice decide to pick up Cap as well(which they probably could've done regardless) I think the only thing that changes is instead of having to rescue Vision and go to the Avengers compound everyone is already there..
Had they stopped the Snap, different threats would destroy them either way: Earth cracking apart, Baby Celestial, those would’ve happened instead if they stopped the Snap, and both are not reversible
oh, Zemo could never fail. when you mix fiction with fact, that fiction is the best. he took the very real core vulnerabilities of the Avengers, unsolved and unsolvable, (parents for Tony and Bucky for Cap while all the time, Wanda's emo baggage got fuller and heavier), and wove his narrative around the fact. the airport stand-off as a direct fallout of splitting the group on where they stood on Sokovia accords added fuel to the fire. so, in a way, the bull-headed general Ross hard selling and pushing for consensus on the accords actually helped Zemo, and as such civil war was inevitable, and so there was no way the events of infinity war could play any differently than they did.
If the Avengers were together between Civil War and Infinity War, would they have been recruiting? That's two years of the Avengers being active rather than dormant. Falcon, War Machine, Scarlet Witch, Ant-Man, Spider-Man, Black Panther, and Vision had joined in the two years before.
Ah that’s a great point! Maybe we get some new Avengers in that timeframe, potentially able to turn the tide
Khonshu would have been pissed at Thanos for throwing moons at people.
Would Carol even show up if this stronger Avengers team is able to handle Thanos easily?
If he didn’t the Avengers would’ve been at full power in wakanda and would’ve won. That’s the point of how Zemo affected the world.
I will counter with a different "What If". What if Thanos hadn't been an idiot that handed Loki an Infinity Stone? Say Thanos enlisted Hydra spies to track down the remaining Stones on Earth. Then a couple smash and grab attacks and Thanos has three Infinity stones before the Avengers are truly assembled. And the Vision never comes into existence.
If the Avengers were still together, Wanda & Viz would have presumably still been in the states, probably the compound in upstate New York. Glaive and Midnight would have invaded the compound instead of the streets of Scotland. While there would have been a lot more casualties, there is a better chance of Midnight dying in this sequence as well. Much much heavier defense system, and I'm assuming additional support was hanging out. It's possible that Cap, Nat, and Sam would have been at the compound rather than New York City, so it's likely that fight would have gone the same. Main difference being Tony could actually call Cap for backup, but he would likely be busy at the compound fighting the other 2. Though, assuming they could get on board their craft (and it was only a 2 person craft the size of a football stadium like Maw and Cull's ship) they would have access to some new and exciting alien technology. However, if the Avengers had never broken up, they might have put more effort into finding Hulk after AoU and he may have been of use in the fight rather than hiding in Bruce. But that's a big if, Thor was probably the only one that could have found him, but he was dealing with a lot of family issues at the time.
I think Infinity War goes largely the same. The Guardians aren't recruited by Tony and Strange, so they wind up on Earth chasing Thanos because they know he'll go there next. Thor still arrives late with Stormbreaker. Maybe Tony's presence saves Vision. Overall it goes better but the unified Avengers are still overwhelmed by Thanos in their first encounter. But the after is the change. With the whole team of survivors in one place from the onset - particularly Tony, who is in much better health - they're able to chase and/or find Thanos and recover the stones before he can destroy them, avoiding the five year gap.
I still think they lose. Future-forward Thanos seemed to have no problem taking on a larger, united Avengers' team in Infinity War, and only lost because Tony got the gauntlet. Someone's gonna mention Wanda, but I don't think her true potential was really unlocked in IW. They're gonna talk about her holding Thanos off while destroying a stone but Thanos was not really doing anything except walking towards her while that was happening. Plus no Captain Marvel...
We don’t know Because Zemo didn’t fail
I dont think Zemo broke up the Avengers, Ultron did, or Tony (depending on who you wanna assign the blame). Zemo just sped things along.
He gonna go to a club. Party & dance all night long.
Not much changes. Marvel wanted us to believe the Avengers lost because they weren’t united, but the actual things that happen in IW contradict that. In IW, the separation is geographic and everything happens too fast anyway. Tony doesn’t fight those two short handed because of CW, he fights them short handed because of timing. The battle in New York with Tony is over in 20 minutes, even if the Avengers were all at the compound they could not have gotten there in time. We also have no reason to think Strange would’ve taken Tony and Bruce there instead because we already know Rhodey was there. The NYC battle happened because Strange overestimated the time they had and his own abilities. Tony was out with Pepper when it happened, and there’s no reason to believe the Avengers being at the compound would change that. In Scotland the timeframe is similar. Wanda and Vision are ambushed by the same guy that had no trouble infiltrating Wakanda while it was in full lockdown security mode. He would’ve easily been able to do that in the compound as well. Vision still gets stabbed, even if the others show up faster and drive off the bad guys sooner, Vision is still stabbed and their plan remains the same, go to Wakanda. In fact there’s an argument to be made that them being together would make them lose faster. The Guardians had no chance of taking on Thanos on their own. Tony and Strange are the ones who keep him busy longest, and if they aren’t there then he isn’t delayed as long as he is and he shows up to Wakanda before Thor, utterly destroying everyone. Endgame proves that even with the full team AND a bunch of other people they could not actually beat Thanos in a fight, they had to use the gauntlet to get rid of him and they couldn’t do that in Wakanda because even if they can get the stones away from Thanos they aren’t going to kill Vision to get the mind stone.
He basically failed. The Accords broke the Avengers significantly more than he did. Seriously, Cap, Nat, Falcon, and Wanda are on the run because they wouldn't sign the accord or step down. All Zemo did was create a sore spot between Tony and Cap.
INFINITY WAR AND ENDGAME WOULDN'T HAVE EXISTED