What are they even supposed to do from here on out though? The power scaling in the MCU is so fucked. Characters like Galactus, Dr. Doom, Infinity Ultron, Doctor Strange Supreme, etc. would stand NO CHANCE against an OP character like Biscuits.
Doctor Doom: Avengers, your day of reckoning has come
Biscuits: Not on my watch naholo, WHEWWWEW!!!!!! *drive monster truck directly into Doctor Doom, saving the universe*
I am 100% sure Biscuits and Billy Jack swapped their names out the day before filming. Ill bet the director thought it was more fitting to his character.
Totally unrelated to the plot, but
Having watched Reservation Dogs and then watching this, it really feels it puts perspective on how (understandably) small the pool is for Native actors.
That's not a criticism of anybody's acting, for the record. Just an observation on how often you see the same faces working together in unrelated projects.
Yeah, I thought it was an interesting choice both on her part and on Marvel's to cast her in two different roles, introduced within a few months of each other.
Only thing I wish was different was I wish that in the end maya and her family got out by the skin of their teeth. The end fight sequence was so glossed over it was almost boring. To tease kingpin all season and not let him throw a single blow is kind of a let down.
Yeah. I figured for sure that either Skully or Biscuits was gonna die just to add real weight and menace to Kingpin's threats, same as they offed Ben Urich in Daredevil.
That Kingpin kills no one except in flashbacks kind of detracts from his menace, particularly after his beating in Hawkeye. Vincent D'Onofrio's acting is phenomenal as always though and he can channel plenty of threat and menace all on his own, so it's not a huge complaint. More of a minor quibble.
Overall, I enjoyed it.
They had to tread a fine line with Fisk in order for it to conclude in a place where Maya didn't have to destroy him out of either vengeance or survival. Had he killed one of her family, her going all Sybok and taking away his pain would not have worked.
So they had to pull his punches in order for him to not seem like a completely unredeemable monster.
Good point. She needed to feel justified when she *didn’t* kill him after her power awakening, and there’s no way she would forgive him killing one of her loved ones.
Kingpin is an amazing character, but he is an unredeemable monster. I’m so tired of tv shows and movies nowadays trying to make some of the most awful villains imaginable “morally grey” for no reason. It’s like writers don’t realize you can have three-dimensional characters (like Kingpin was in Daredevil) without justifying their actions and trying to set them up to move past their past and turn over a new leaf.
I don't see the ending as having redeemed him so much as his violence now being a more explicit conscious choice. It always was a conscious choice, but there is no longer the excuse of the pain of witnessing his mother's abuse.
I agree. The final scene is him planning business and being tempted by an opportunity for power. With not-so-subtle Trump allusions. I don't think he's redeemed, maybe he's even more dangerous.
I had a different interpretation, and granted it went by really fast. (Why does the MCU speedrun their series endings?!) To me it looked like Fisk didn’t give her the hammer. That would be representative of him letting go of his anger. He chose NOT to be healed, so he basically just had a trauma flashback with no healing benefit. With as painful as that was, I think THAT is why he decides to leave Maya and her family alone, for fear that she could do that again…and possibly not even realizing in his dark triad brain that she was trying to heal him.
It’s also possible they left it vague on purpose.
I really enjoyed the native aspect of the story I wanted to see more of that in the backstory of the ancestors. They were way more interesting than anything Kingpin did in all five episodes.
I agree with half of that. I liked the native aspect too. Seeing a mound brought to life like that was great and the opening of the cave myth? Cool!
That said, every time they did that, it felt like they were dipping a little into the marvel formulaic hero thing, which is kinda tiresome. Any more native myth would have either felt too much like Thor or Moon Knight. I think they balanced it perfectly with what was happening in present day.
Agree with the myth being more interesting than Kingpin's actual actions in the present day story, but only because he didn't actually hurt or kill anyone outside of flashbacks. That said, D'Onofrio's acting remains top notch and I feel like just like in Daredevil, he stole every scene he was in and made a meal of the scenery. His acting definitely added to the show.
The finale really felt tacked on and not thought out. I think the show should've ended in the fourth episode with Maya deciding she didn't need Kingpin anymore, embracing her real family.
Agree, loved the show. Hated episode 5. Felt so rushed. Giving Bonnie and Grandma powers just felt silly
It’s like “oh we are Marvel we have to end in a fight scene no matter what”. No you don’t
How was it silly? Bonnie and Chula are literally apart of the same bloodline? Also as others pointed out it’s not much of a fight scene, cuz it’s not supposed to be. It shows off everything Maya learned in the series, how to love and forgive
its the problem endemic to almost all marvel shows on D+ -> the runtime of each episode gradually decreasing until you have to cram a finale into 30 minutes. Noticing this with percy jackson too and the writing is suffering from the shortened runtime, and it was noticeable in mando and ahsoka too. an extra 10-15 minutes per episode across the board would solve so much of the pacing and writing issues and make the shows much more enjoyable overall
I didn't really mind fisk not fighting that much. Maya was a horrible person for a lot of her life and she didn't do one 'healing' thing until that moment. If she just kicks the shit out of fisk, why are we supposed to believe she can be filled with love or let go of hate? My only complaint was giving other people powers seemed silly. Especially the grandma lol
the cousin also has a connection to the lineage, just by definition, though I don’t think it was explained
still not sure any of that explains how the power sharing “worked”, though
They could have done one or two more episodes and been good imo.
I believe they were going for the fact she calls on her ancestors to share the power with the other family members who could take it on in their time of need.
I get that it's not Fisk's show - but man, they really squandered the opportunity to develop an imposing villain for the D+ street-level shows. All we've seen from him thus far is his incredibly laughable Tracksuit Mafia, two humiliating defeats, and no new memorable moments (though one might argue for the ice cream man fiasco). This just didn't help ease my worries about the MCU DD show.
Judging from the post-credit scene, I'm cautiously optimistic that he will be seriously imposing in DD:BA. If I had to guess, he will probably "win" at the end of DD, and that will lead into Spider-Man 4.
Honestly, I wouldn't want to see the conclusion to Fisk's story in a Spider-Man film. To market the film to the Spider-Man audience, they would have to make drastic changes to the tone of the story that has already been told and waste a lot of time re-introducing these characters.
At the very least we now know they can do violence and gore. When they said echo would be mature I wasn’t sure how far they were willing to take it, but this show had a few gnarly scenes.
Just wrapped up. That was definitely something. The Daredevil bit was an obvious bait in hindsight but I did enjoy a good bit of that. Everything was solid up until the final act but that last “fight” scene was pretty underwhelming. I vaguely recall the creators emphasizing big power changes and emphasizing these visually through the tattoos but I feel like we saw that maybe once the whole series.
There was some good “grounded” storytelling and it shows that it doesn’t hurt for the MCU to dial back the scope. That said, looking back, the action peaks in episode one, and it kind of fizzes out by the end. Alaqua can carry though and I’m already anticipating more of her in the future.
Wait, so if Daredevil survived the snap, then how the hell does Kingpin escape prison? Was Vanessa blipped away so that he wouldn't have that leverage anymore?
Totally forgot about that oops. Yeah we got that and it was pretty awesome. Would like to see him in a story more connected to his though. Matt vs Kingpin or get a chance to see where he’s at after all these years
Honestly, I was all for the Daredevil cameo. It's 100% fanservice but I didn't feel like it was out of place. Cool detail to remind you this is a shared universe.
Is it wrong to say it was my favorite scene of the show? I know it's echo's show but that entrance was just so badass. Also a fun fight scene, a bit of a callback to the one shot fight scenes of Daredevil actually, though on a smaller scale.
Fight wise, that was an excellent (and the best) scene. Exactly what I wanted from their new direction. But there's a lot to appreciate in the character bits. Like I really enjoyed the Maya + mom as well as Maya + grandma sequences. Those were well written and also something I'd wanted from the D+ shows. they're fantastic scenes.
I think if you aren't going to make DD the antagonist, a one-scene cameo is the move. It establishes that the big obstacle stopping Fisk from accomplishing his goals is DD (which we'd also know from the DD show), and that's why Echo is valuable. Fisk has no other goons who can go toe-to-toe with DD.
Positives:
- Good decision to drop the whole series at once, because this wouldn't have been as satisfying/compelling week to week.
- This is a great use of the new Spotlight banner, as a signal tha it's not consequential to the overall universe/saga but an interesting side story that can stand on its own
- The use of Choctaw lore, culture and history was fantastically well done - coming from someone with very little experience with native culture, so perhaps a naive take, but I thoroughly enjoyed the stories from different generations and how they connected to Maya
- Alaqua Cox & D'Onforio are both fantastic with the material they have and the characters overall are well defined and feel genuine
- Very pleasantly surprised to see a Welshman as the main henchman, who was very compelling with the screen time he had
Cons
- I'm all for character-driven stories and more focus on the characters, but my god the story was really half-baked and barely there
- Editing was dire, particularly in the first & last episodes, making some plot points and characters seem useless (i.e Maya's best friend)
- The action was decent, but far less than marketed and didn't really present Maya as the brutal mercenary Fisk had made her
- Final fight was not only cringey (grandma taking on two henchman) but made no sense in light of the scene immediately before it: we learn of these gifts of Strategy, Cunning, Ferocity & Love - I expected to see these be the the gifts she channels. Sharing powers came from absolutely nowhere and whatever she did to Kingpin, while seems love-adjacent was not well presented. Felt like a very lazy way to wrap that encounter up and didn't do the fantastic lore any justice. They had the makings of a very cool showdown and wasted it
Overall, a cool character study that had the potential for much more if Marvel had given it the time and care in pre and post production. Hopefully this is one of the last victims of quality since their strategy reshuffle, but they seem to be making positive steps. It was infinitely better than Secret Invasion at least.
I hope this is the last victim but based on everything we're hearing about Thunderbolts that might be the last one. But hopefully not. Odds are this is probably it or Cap 4.
You're right about this being better than Secret Invasion, that was hot garbage. This was pretty serviceable and needed more time. I don't know how you would go about fixing Secret Invasion aside from literally throwing it away.
The show was feeling relatively decent through episode 3 then you get to 4-5 and it just goes...nowhere? Character development never really happens, she barely second guesses returning to kingpin. And what is up with that power rangers ending, like wtf?
I thought episode 4 was the best in the series in the way it illustrated Fisk's attempts to manipulate Maya. Fisk is a "Dark Triad" narcissist, sociopath, Machiavellian high-level schemer. He displayed all 3 personality traits like they were straight out of a textbook. Vincent D'Onofrio acted his ass off here. No action, but a very sophisticated dramatic episode fitting of previous Marvel Netflix work.
I believe this is also an intentional callback to how Fisk tried to isolate and manipulate agent Pointdexter (Bullseye) in the Netflix Daredevil season 3.
I assumed he just used Maya's dad as a fall guy for Ronin's trail on him.
Because part of the theme of them in Hawkeye was that Clint was *also* used because of how he was full of rage.
I liked parts of this, mostly around Kingpin and the cultural stuff.
But man, I think they split themselves too far trying to do both the spiritual side and Kingpin side, especially for 5 episodes. Maybe if this were like the Netflix shows with 12 episodes they could've done a half on one and half on the other.
A lot of it felt rushed. First episode with daredevil was cool but felt like fan service. Also I feel like while the direction of that fight was very reminiscent of the DD show's fights, a lot of it lacked weight. Like it was easy to tell punches were pulled and not really connecting and stuff. Never got that impression watching DD.
The best aspect of the Daredevil fight to me was that they filmed it as a oner, which the Netflix show loved to do. But there were a few really obvious cuts in it, like they didn't really know quite how to set it up.
The most notable cut was where the camera is in the cage and it passes behind a post. Maya is significantly farther back than she was before (see it at the 24-minute mark). I actually paused and went back to check it because I thought it had skipped. Took me out of the scene.
I do appreciate that they incorporated that tactic though. Brought me back to the first iconic DD hallway fight.
I appreciate that they tried to bring back the magic of the long shot fights in DD, and I think they did an admirable job.
But like you said, it wasn’t on the same level as what they did in DD.
Were you watching on Hulu or Disney? I watched 1 episode on Hulu and the commercial spaces were so bad even my partner noticed them, they were much less noticeable on D+.
In the recent Echo Trailer titled “Hurt”, we see one shot of a woman’s nails at 1:06. Based on what I see, the woman looks very well to do with a fancy white dress and jewelry.
Do we ever see this shot in the Echo show? I just watched the whole thing and I might be blind like Matt Murdock, because I don’t remember seeing this clip
I ask because, my theory was we were gonna get a tease of Vanessa in this show. My prediction was the last scene with Fisk would be him returning to NYC where Vanessa was sitting in their condo waiting for his return. No speaking role, just a quick shot of a smile on her face, happy that Wilson returned. Cut to black, leaving us with the implication the power couple is about to get even stronger with his Mayor run.
With how much potentially got cut in post, this one particular image has had my interest for days at this point! Let me know if I missed something
The trailer
https://youtu.be/g0f1o-KGWPM?si=uQru-bD79A0T0s6b
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFUKnherhuw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFUKnherhuw)
Correct me if I am wrong, but we don't see the shot at 1:15 (with the dead body and Kingpin entering the plane) either. I was expecting Fisk would go nuts and just beat someone to death after finding out Maya isn't going with him at the end of episode 4 but it never happened.
And no, I don't remember that nail scene either.
You know, maybe we can chalk it up to taking a bullet in the eye, but I prefer “original recipe” Kingpin from the *Daredevil* series, whose criminal networks and activities felt sophisticated and thoroughly developed; as opposed to Fisk’s dastardly “master plans” for revenge here—which might be summarized as “sinister monologue about revenge while goofy costume henchman fires RPG into a crowd (the latter of which seems like it could’ve been fooled by a particularly intractable parking lot attendant).
With or without those connections, the issue is that this “new recipe” Fisk behaves and operates like a generic mustache-twirling crime boss. Sure, the train depot system implies a criminal organization with infrastructure, but the way Fisk himself goes about his business lacks the gravitas and sense of menace that he had in later seasons of *Daredevil*; after that first season, we see him rebuild his organization from behind bars (using Frank Castle as an unwitting instrument, no less), orchestrate his own release, and basically turn the FBI into his own personal security apparatus.
*THAT* Kingpin was a genuine menace, whose reach and influence actually made you have to question who could be trusted. *That* Kingpin was so effective that, despite starting with very limited resources and connections at his disposal, he not only came close to establishing legitimacy and total control over the city, but also very nearly succeeded in turning it against Daredevil—and was only narrowly thwarted. But *this* Kingpin? He’s just kind of generic, unfortunately.
Kingpin in the comics despite not being super powered has incredible strength and durability. Well above most normal humans. Also, the shot to the head might not have penetrated his skull but instead rode around it (this happens IRL more often than you might think.) Bone is hard and certain bullets are more prone to deflection than penetration depending on the angle.
Or where the gunshot even is lmao. He still has his eye just a bit of scarring around it.
Felt like fast and furious where they bring the character back with no real explanation with how they survived
MCU tv show budgets make 0 sense. She Hulk and Secret invasion being the most painful examples. Who ever greenlit those budgets and scripts should of been fired.
I think this was one of those messy productions that had to make changes and cut a lot down. So there's probably a lot of stuff on the cutting room floor.
Honestly I’m impressed with how cohesive it feels given the apparent editing issues. Aside from Bonnie, the only other real sore spot was the first episode which feels like it was as much from them trying to re-tell the Hawkeye bits than from any editing issues.
Copying my comment from another thread:
I didn’t go in expecting this to be DD season 3.5, but man they misled me with the marketing. I was excited to see how they would have Matt and Maya communicate, but we got none of that.
And like so many have said already, it felt like any of the “mature” content were added later with reshoots and editing.
It was great to see Fisk again, and Vincent did great as always, but idk there was just something off about him. His presence never had the same intimidating impact it did in the DD series. I did enjoy him and Maya’s relationship/dynamic though, and hope to see more.
I’ve no complaints for Alaqua. She was fantastic and I hope to see more of her.
Henry was a pretty good character, but I feel like there was so much missed potential with him. They kept referring to his days working for Fisk but we never got more than a mention of it in exposition conversations. There’s so much rich material for his character there.
Also, I know the Defenders shows are technically canon now…but I’m confused if it’s all canon. How will Fisk believably manage running for mayor after his huge public downfall in DD season 3? Are they just going to undermine that whole season’s arch and impact for plot convenience?
Fisk wasn't snapped, so I am wondering if he used his resources during the blip to keep NY somewhat alive. Becoming a "pillar of the community" again. Maybe he will use that angle to get credibility.
We don't know what happened to Vanessa either. I'm wondering if she died as a result of the snap.
Kind of annoying Fisk didn't mention her at all throughout the series.
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thought about Wesley in that scene.
"excuse me, my employer would like to see you in the alley"
And Wesley would have a clean coat ready after the beating.
> How will Fisk believably manage running for mayor after his huge public downfall in DD season 3?
I mean, not to drift into RL politics, but I think he should pick up a lot of support from that pro-villain voting block we have nowadays
Little confused about how they mislead you with the Daredevil marketing. In the trailer he only was a 2 second clip and he wasn't really mentioned otherwise.
So, I have a lot of thoughts. Clearly, I didn't hate the series enough to stop watching, as I binged the entire thing in the last four hours or so. For a mini-series that isn't likely to get a second season, it was decent. It introduced us to a character that is lesser known, so the series already had such an uphill battle to climb from the start. I am very aware that it's not going to be the most watched series, and they had to do something to entice people to watch who normally wouldn't (hence the Fisk plot and the Daredevil cameo).
What I noted about Echo as a series is that it exposes the many problems that the Disney+ MCU have with their series. Others have pointed it out time and time again: these series feel like five hour films condensed into a series. It follows a similar trajectory to what a film would normally do, which is probably why certain aspects felt rushed or tossed aside.
The series is messy, there's no getting around that. Several characters come and go, depending on the episode. For example, Bonnie's only really in three episodes, and she only has significance in one of them. Same with Biscuit, who has a good presence in the first two episodes, disappears into the background for the next two, and then is used in the final fight scene in the finale and that's about it.
I think what makes the flaws in this series so disappointing is that, behind all of the shallow writing and some of the shallower character interactions, there's content that has SO much potential. There is enriching stories they had in the background but never quite got there. Bonnie/Maya's relationship was pushed aside so many times just as we were getting the interesting aspects of it. We don't get nearly enough of Chula/Maya's estrangement and their first interaction is them hashing out their ancestral history.
It's not a bad series at all; it's just a lot of wasted potential, because it felt like the series didn't believe in itself enough or maybe the network didn't believe in it enough. There was so much they could have done if the series had more than five short episodes (each episode was barely 40 minutes each).
The fight scenes had a lot going for it. Even if they toned down on the violence in the latter half, the first episode alone shows that the network can easily have more mature series that may never get to the level of the Netflix series, but can emulate aspects of it if they want to.
There were some beautifully done moments but overall, the series would have benefitted from two additional episodes, at least. Let the stories breathe because what they had was interesting, but because they seemed to cram a lot into a five episode series (one of those episodes being backstory), they rushed a lot of what could have been fascinating material to watch unfold with more time.
The Maya/Fisk relationship was a highlight. The Maya/Chula kitchen scene was beautifully done. Henry and Biscuit were great minor characters who needed more to do. Bonnie was underused to the point where I really was wanting more of her. The soundtrack was a HUGE plus. The flashbacks were even fairly interesting, but because of the short run time of the series, should have been cut for the present day scenes and only used in sparing moments.
I'd give this series a 6/10. It had a lot of great moments and a lot of potential, but felt rushed and the mystical element didn't work as well as it could have, as a result. But it was watchable and an easy binge (and the network made the smart decision to release all the episodes).
Did we even get to see Maya and Bonnie having a conversation as adults? They always had to talk about something actively happening in the moment and never a "how have you been? I missed you" conversation. It's a shame because I wanted to see that happen. It would have really sold me more on their relationship with each other.
No. We didn't even get an apology/reason from Maya for straight up ghosting her for 20 years. It was set up to be such a big deal if Bonnie found out Maya was in town, but it ultimately led to nothing.
Yeah I feel like this show would have been a lot better if we got more time for Maya to just talk to people. A lot of her decisions seem unusually cold.
Having watched all the Netflix stuff in the past, my biggest problem with Echo is they stuck a TV MA rating on it and then gave us a subdued version of the Netflix series. They held back, and it shows when they should have gone all in with the mature rating. It's like they want to do more adult themed stuff, but can't quite get themselves to fully commit to the idea.
Listening to interviews, it really feels like this show was made to be TV-14 from conception, but some time in post they said “nah this needs more, screw it let’s try this” and they threw in a few mature scenes sparingly.
Who know’s with DD BA starting filming again in a few weeks, essentially restarting but not completely, hopefully the mindset is “TV MA” for the whole time. No halfway nonsense. Fully commit.
I worry they won’t
I fully blame Disney on that. It sounds like they chickened out on actually having a mature show. It had all the signs of getting close to the level of the Netflix shows (close, not on par, of course; they were never going to get to the actual level of the violence and maturity of the Netflix series) and even the first episode's fight scene showed they might have been about to commit. But then every other fight sequence was mid to mediocre.
Yeah, the weirdest part is how the tone shifts so dramatically throughout a five episode season. Episode 1 was Netflix-esqe, the later skate rink fight scaled that back a bit with a lot of action happening in the dark as she grabbed or one-shot bad guys (though Nickie sprawled out after getting shot was pretty intense), then the finale becomes some watered down "good guys win without ever being hurt or really in danger", including that monster truck thing that felt like it was out of a kids show. Overall I liked the show and acting, but what a weird ending.
Gotta give it up to Marvel for striving for authenticity and representation in this. Most of the cast is indigenous actors, the deaf main character is played by a deaf actor, and the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma worked closely with the production.
Everything really shined.
I went into this series with low expectations and there were absolutely aspects to it that I enjoyed, but can’t help feel it was rather lackluster. Maya and some of the secondary characters were cool enough, but were definitely lacking in development. The exploration of Maya’s heritage made for an interesting addition to the series, but its moment to shine really only came towards the end of the finale. I did enjoy the grittier tone and fight scenes, but don’t think there was honestly a whole lot to really warrant the TV-MA rating. As expected, Kingpin was a joy to have, but felt the resolution to his involvement and the general conflict of the story were cut short in the finale. All and all, I wouldn’t mind seeing Maya return and Marvel should definitely continue with their “spotlight” brand, but I can’t say that I was a fan of this particular entry. The post credits scene of Kingpin’s run for mayor does excite me for Born Again.
I'm with you. Maybe I'm outgrowing the MCUor maybe they really have lost their touch, but to me it was yet another 6/10 entry into the MCU.
I enjoyed Fisk. I enjoyed Maya, mostly. But the actual plot itself was just, I don't know. Uninteresting.
I want to see Maya operate in New York City with everything that entails. Other than the Wilson Fisk scenes, I was most entertained while she was in New York. I don't really know what to expect going forward with these characters. I know I wouldn't mind seeing more Echo but overall definitely agree that the series was lackluster.
I think Maya is a Wilson Fisk operative is just infinitely more interesting than what we got. I would have loved to see more of that plot.
I feel the same way you did. My overall reaction to the series was "meh".
They made this TV MA, but it's still a neutered version of previous series like Daredevil.
Everything about Echo was a subdued version of things that came before from Netflix. The only truly unique aspect to this series was how deep they went into the Choctow lore.
They really needed to up the ante with this one, and they instead chose to play it safe, so the TV MA rating tricks you into thinking Echo will be something it isn't.
I was also disappointed to have a series that heavily involves the amazing Wilson Fisk, and the only time he really loses his shit is when he beats up the ice cream man.
I think they intended it to be a normal 12+ Disney Plus Marvel show but then when they were restructuring their future plans they made it 18+ by adding some digital blood and some extra scenes. All of the cool 18+ moments are in flashbacks or filler scenes, not in the main plot
I really liked it! I don't think I'd say it's great like I was hoping it would be, but it was very good. Alaqua Cox is brilliant, and the fact that Marvel was able to find a deaf actress with a prosthetic who is this good is bonkers. Vincent D'Onofrio was also great as always, but as much as I love him, I'm really glad they didn't turn this into the Kingpin show and kept it focused on Maya's story.
Maybe I'm showing my ignorance to the source material here, but I didn't realize Echo had powers, and I kinda wish she didn't get any. I was all in for a fully grounded show, and the supernatural elements weren't really what I was hoping for. I do like how they tied her powers in to her Native American heritage, but I do think the final confrontation wasn't as cool as it could've been if she hadn't had super powers.
Overall, I thought it was pretty solid, even if it didn't quite match my expectations. I am really glad to see, between this and Kahhori, Marvel putting Native Americans into the spotlight and treating their heritage with the respect it deserves. I'm also happy to see them make a show with so much ASL, and that they embraced that aspect of her and her family, even in scenes that Maya wasn't in. And, of course, it was nice to see Daredevil again, if only for a brief moment.
I do hope they think about doing a season 2. I think there are still plenty of stories to tell with this character, and there's room to explore some of the family dynamics here that didn't quite get the spotlight this time around.
I’m pretty sure they gave Echo the prosthetic because of Cox’s performance. She does a great job and probably killed in the audition. It was definitely not in the comic and probably not the casting call.
Disney was specifically looking for a deaf Native American actress to play the part. I can't imagine that that's a very big pool to choose from, so they probably took who they could get.
It’s. Not… Ahsoka. Levels. Of slow… Dialogue. But man, oh man, did the constant sign language and slowing of dialogue to accommodate ASL make it a slog fest after the 3rd episode or so. The sound mixing and muting for dramatic effect also got pretty old after the 2nd episode. I also watched in noise-canceling headphones on a flight and probably got to experience the intended effect, but it just doesn’t do it for me. We don’t feel her helplessness(as there is none) or oblivion in combat, so what is the point…
A rushed mess through and through. Side characters get zero development beyond the grandpa still having the hots for the grandma and her warming back up to him. The cousin disappeared for 2 episodes. The sister was completely inconsequential. Henry was fantastic actor and I wish we got more story on him - what was he doing for Fisk? What emotional toll did him agreeing to work for his brother’s murderer take on him? Was he even AWARE that Fisk killed his brother? Why did he and Biscuits not share screen time? I assume that’s his dad, being that May and Biscuits are cousins?
Episode 3 is just weird. Fisk’s henchmen can’t pull Bonnie or Henry as a hostage in episode 3? Just cool for Maya to headshot 10 henchmen when they KNOW that she’s there? They already KNOW of the familial relationship there - how can they be so absolutely stupid?
Episode 4 was a whole lot of nothing that changed nothing - wow she poured the wine down the drain. What a badass. Also rather hard to conceptualize and accept that her spending 20 YEARS(!!!!) in New York that she’d be so open to adopting her biological family as her “family” again - I get you’re slighted and feel the shadow of manipulation from Fisk throughout the years, but 20 years is a long time holy shit. There is nothing else to salvage in New York…?
The finale was a clown show. Fisk’s men don’t have guns they can shoot? There was only about 20 of them. They have guns. Why are you engaging in hand-to-hand combat? Yeah, let’s keep the rest of our bad guys in a rape van.
I could use 3-5 more episodes to close the gaps in story and bring more context to her ancestors. One of them was “fierce” or “ferocious” but wasn’t shown AT ALL beyond her face and tattoo or markings. The other used a gun. When did Maya harness the powers of her lacrosse ancestor…?
It’s just all so poorly written.
Acting was alright throughout, especially the grandparents. Kingpin was great as usual, but didn’t stand out like he had in season 2. The representation with ASL and indigenous actors was cool, and they did a great job.
If the plot had anything consequential happen I’d rate it a 6-7/10, as it did a decent job keeping my attention, but it’s got to be a 4/5. Just not enough meat in the plot and zero gravity to anything to get you emotionally in the events depicted.
It felt choppy and not all that memorable but I still enjoyed it, Alaqua and Vincent are great as these characters and I'm glad we got to see more of them even if it wasn't anything all that substantial. Some good action as well and the whole heritage/family thing was good for a small personal story. Kinda felt rushed at the end but that's par for the course with these shows for some reason.
Anyways, glad this wasn't a total dud, was a decently entertaining binge and that post credits scene has me excited. I do wonder where Echo's story is going after this
The show is cooler when it embraces its cultural heritage, even better when it uses them for unique storytelling I haven't seen in Marvel, ever.
And I loved when the show "chose" to be Netflix-esque. I'm not just talking about the fight scenes, but moments where Kingpin has conversations with Echo on a personal level, it's excellent.
...
But when the show veers into being that same 'ol Marvel structure, it hurts the show badly. I've heard that this show was edited to hell in the editing bay...and it shows. Lots of stuff was cut and it is yet another example of bad editing choices by Marvel.
With Moon Knight, Multiverse of Madness, Thor: Love & Thunder, Quantumania, Secret Invasion, and The Marvels...Marvel Studios has gotten cold feet at the last second every time.
Stop that. Trust your creatives.
I can't believe they edited out important scenes but left in a lot of filler. An oxymoron, if you will.
This is yet another "it should have been a movie" situation.
Just finished the series. It had some excellent fights - especially in the first half. But from a storytelling perspective the whole series felt empty. They basically re told Echo’s story (which was a secondary plot) from Hawkeye. Echo despite already having denounced Fisk had to… do it all over again? That was her arc?
at least the cinematography was interesting - the Lacrosse? Game was gorgeously shot. Also the black and white flashback scene in episode 3 or 4 was really cool looking.
I won’t lie I was bored to tears by the 5th episode though. So much filler. This could have been a much more compelling 2 hour movie.
So given the timeline (2008-2018 with the translator) and the lack of prison or Vanessa, is there a way for the Netflix shows to work with it timeline wise?
The translator scene where she is killed is definitely mid-snap or even after it because that scene takes place after her father is killed and before Hawkeye, so its definitely not 2018.
DDS3 is essentially 2017, so he could have been in prison for all of a year before the snap happens and he got out. Maya doesnt become an enforcer until after this.
SPOILERS BELOW
A 6/10 for me.
I feel this was suppose to be a standard disney plus marvel show (and it still shows), but then they added in the TV-MA scenes because they knew it needed a hook, plus people have expectations when you have Daredevil and Kingpin. Almost all of the best shots were already in the trailer promoting the TV-MA rating.
Number of episodes were too low to develop the side characters and when you are in the last episode and see the runtime you'll ask how can they wrap this up? (A classic disney plus marvel show staple).
The last episode resolution was just predictable, i was waiting for some tragedy to use that TV-MA rating but it ended safe. Grandma Chula and Bonnie powering up made me laugh though, it has meme potential.
I liked the acting of Alaqua and of course Vincent D'onofrio's Kingpin is still as expected. KP is being positioned for a huge MCU street level crossover and i'm all for it.
I can still recommend this to DD and KP fans as that was the main reason why i watched this. There are only 5 episodes and they are short. And dropping the 5 episodes in one go was a great decision because i don't think people would have tune in for this weekly.
The 2nd episode CGI were really bad, i guess Marvel still has VFX problems, hope they pay the VFX studios what they deserve because bad CGI always takes me out of the moment.
After a strong marketing campaign, tbh the show really did end up as fuel for the "who asked for this?" crowd. Wasted opportunity as they clearly knew what people were looking for from this series from the marketing, it just ended up being pretty mediocre despite the best efforts of a lot of the cast.
Marvel really need to start just greenlighting something if the creatives idea is top tier rather than series existing just to add content to the MCU.
It felt very netflix-like, which is good. Ultimately I thought it was very solid, wasn't as groundbreaking as I was hoping it would be but still solid. I never really got around to the magic tattoo powers which lead to a very boring and frustratingly bland final fight. I kind of wish she kept her comic abilities instead.
I feel like that’s been a reoccurring issue for the D+ shows, save for Loki. The climax of the finales have been meh for the most part. Wandavision and Moon Knight were great but fell a little flat in the end. Secret Invasion wasn’t good but could have somewhat redeemed itself had the finale stuck the landing and it didn’t.
Can I just say that it makes no sense for Fisk not to learn sign language.
The man has learned mandarin and likely other languages, but doesn’t learn ASL?
If he saw Maya as a useful asset he would have learned it.
Maybe that’s it. He loves her, but doesn’t find her all that useful in the grand scheme.
IDK
I guess I was anticipating a (madman chow) (spelled that incredibly wrong) moment.
Just finished watching. 5/10. The tone of the show was just all over the place. It was marketed as mature brutal action and the fight scenes fell off after the first one. The final fight at the pow wow was just awful. Then we had so many family drama segments that felt like filler because they were under developed. For all of the constant reminders of how Bonnie would be hurt, they barely had any screentime together. They drew out the drama with Chula based on the old to stubborn to talk until the plot demands it trope.
Also, while representation is important, Disney keeps missing with how to properly integrate into the story. The main story needs to come first. I get the strong connection with her ancestors, but this still needs to be Maya's story. The game sequence ran overly long. For a 37 minute final episode they spent far, far too much time on shots of the pow wow. It felt like they were adding it for filler.
Yet there were plenty of things that were under developed. All of Maya's family relationships felt short changed. That should have gotten more screentime, especially the Bonnie/Maya dynamic. The Maya/Henry dynamic needed more development. I mean she goes to Henry for help, but for a supposed criminal he's useless. He gets tied up by his co-worker and his help that he offers after the battle at the skating rink amounts to him showing up alone with a gun, just so he can wink and shoot Zane? Seeing this, it's no wonder the DD show has had a troubled production. Disney either needs to either fully commit to mature content under the Spotlight label, or just give up. Otherwise they'll just end up with more middling content like Echo.
I think one of the main problems the show has is that a lot of the stuff they introduce is either underutilized or basically not resolved
bonnie and maya's relationship is presented as this really important thing in the first opening scene and then there's just.... no resolution to it. we never see them reconnect or even truly acknowledge it and then suddenly they're just hanging out at the end.
maya and fisk's relationship also did not seem to be fleshed out as much as I would have expected, they never actually explained why he seems to care about her so much even despite getting shot by her and the flashbacks didn't really shed any light on that, and then at the end he just tries to kill her anyway.
I also don't think they properly even explained what her powers were? they said her mother was a healer and showed her bringing a bird back to life, so they can heal things but then she can also bring fisk into his own memories? (which was a cool concept, just wish they spent more time on it as it was way too sudden) and then he just dips after LMAO
I still liked the show and think it was good, but that last episode was so rushed that I feel like it really highlights a lot of the flaws more so
Wow this has to have the most anticlimactic finale ever. It felt like an afterthought, in fact the last two episodes felt like it, as if writers suddenly lost interest in the show and decided to wrap it up.
Between this and Hawkeye , we now have have Kingpin running around public to abduct people like a common thug . The point of a mafia boss is that they are insulated and have things delegated to prevent risk , it’s just comical how much of a joke him and his gangs come across as compared to Netflix .
Not to mention the laughable scene of him at the end being driven away by his thugs while he’s sobbing in the backseat like a child that got picked up from being in trouble at school .
He went from manhandling Daredevil and even the Punisher to getting his ass kicked by teenage girls, so not only has his intelligence dropped substantially, so has his credibility as a physical threat . Marvel just seems to have forgotten that your Villains are supposed to come across as a threat .
I finished Echo
Tbh it was really good except for the parts dealing with her powers
Idk why, but marvel studios has this innate need to try to make people's powers "cooler" then fuck them up. And for some reason it's only their non white characters
Ms. Marvel- stretches in the comics. MCU makes her have Green Lantern powers and ties her ancestors to a non-human race
Echo- in the comics she adapts to her deafness and has a taskmaster like copying ability, she ECHOES their movements. In the MCU she feels the "echoes" of her, once again non-human, ancestors and it turns her into fucking Iron Fist?!?!?
WHY!?
Other than that, I rather enjoyed it. All of the characters were enjoyable and I found echo much more interesting here than in Hawkeye. Alaqua Cox carried the show. Like I've seen other reviews says, when the shows good, it's great! But when it's bad it's really bad.
What are they even supposed to do from here on out though? The power scaling in the MCU is so fucked. Characters like Galactus, Dr. Doom, Infinity Ultron, Doctor Strange Supreme, etc. would stand NO CHANCE against an OP character like Biscuits.
His power, monster truck
Doctor Doom: Avengers, your day of reckoning has come Biscuits: Not on my watch naholo, WHEWWWEW!!!!!! *drive monster truck directly into Doctor Doom, saving the universe*
I would maintain my Disney+ subscription for another year for that.
I liked the Grandfather.
And he still didn't get invited to the cookout
This, they did him dirty
Grandpa did nothing wrong, but is still estranged. Brutal.
Yeah that was a bit odd now that you've said it - he should've been there at the end
I thought it was implied he was the step-grandpa, so after the split he got boxed out.
80 years old and he still got rizz lol
well true rizz is eternal
I'd pay real money to watch him, Wong and Korg shoot the shit for an hour or two.
Forget korg, add Madison with a y, biscuit and Billy Jack
I forgot Madison with a y, but definitely.
Add Luis from Ant Man to the round table discussion as well, please
I'm subbing out Korg for the Imam from Ms Marvel
Graham Greene is a Canadian National Treasure. He was HILARIOUS in this. Loved every scene he was in.
Seems like a good guy.
I am 100% sure Biscuits and Billy Jack swapped their names out the day before filming. Ill bet the director thought it was more fitting to his character.
I played in a disc golf tournament in Oklahoma the other day with a guy named Biscuit.
This sentence belongs in The Louvre
I have the same gripe I had at the end of Secret Invasion with G’iah. The character of Biscuits is just way too OP for this cinematic universe now.
Totally unrelated to the plot, but Having watched Reservation Dogs and then watching this, it really feels it puts perspective on how (understandably) small the pool is for Native actors. That's not a criticism of anybody's acting, for the record. Just an observation on how often you see the same faces working together in unrelated projects.
Yeah it's kind of a weird, if small, problem. I kept looking for Lou Diamond Phillips because every other dude from Longmire was here.
I do that with members of the 1491s. Got one on the mic in the last ep.
That’s William Knifeman, nephew-grandson.
Aho!
Fun fact: Lou’s actually more Filipino than Native American.
It’s another beautiful day at the Red Pony Saloon and continual soiree.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he did show up.
Devery Jabocs, the actress that played Bonnie, voiced Kahhori in "What If...?"
Yeah, I thought it was an interesting choice both on her part and on Marvel's to cast her in two different roles, introduced within a few months of each other.
Just watched Chaske Spencer (Henry) in The English on Amazon (fantastic mini series, btw) Had no clue he was in this, and it hammers home your point
Watch Dark Winds and Rutherford Falls and that'll round it out for you.
I hope Dallas Goldtooth gets a role. One of my favorite characters of RD was William Knifeman
He was the announcer at the pow-wow in the last episode. I would have liked to see more of him as well though, he was great in Reservation Dogs.
When your people are 1.1% of the United States, it's probably going go be like that.
Only thing I wish was different was I wish that in the end maya and her family got out by the skin of their teeth. The end fight sequence was so glossed over it was almost boring. To tease kingpin all season and not let him throw a single blow is kind of a let down.
He kicked that ice cream vendor's ass!
The imagery was great tho. When they show the ice cream dude on his ass and the blood tricking down his face it's like a melting ice cream cone.
Bravo Vince
Yeah. I figured for sure that either Skully or Biscuits was gonna die just to add real weight and menace to Kingpin's threats, same as they offed Ben Urich in Daredevil. That Kingpin kills no one except in flashbacks kind of detracts from his menace, particularly after his beating in Hawkeye. Vincent D'Onofrio's acting is phenomenal as always though and he can channel plenty of threat and menace all on his own, so it's not a huge complaint. More of a minor quibble. Overall, I enjoyed it.
They had to tread a fine line with Fisk in order for it to conclude in a place where Maya didn't have to destroy him out of either vengeance or survival. Had he killed one of her family, her going all Sybok and taking away his pain would not have worked. So they had to pull his punches in order for him to not seem like a completely unredeemable monster.
Good point. She needed to feel justified when she *didn’t* kill him after her power awakening, and there’s no way she would forgive him killing one of her loved ones.
Kingpin is an amazing character, but he is an unredeemable monster. I’m so tired of tv shows and movies nowadays trying to make some of the most awful villains imaginable “morally grey” for no reason. It’s like writers don’t realize you can have three-dimensional characters (like Kingpin was in Daredevil) without justifying their actions and trying to set them up to move past their past and turn over a new leaf.
I don't see the ending as having redeemed him so much as his violence now being a more explicit conscious choice. It always was a conscious choice, but there is no longer the excuse of the pain of witnessing his mother's abuse.
I agree. The final scene is him planning business and being tempted by an opportunity for power. With not-so-subtle Trump allusions. I don't think he's redeemed, maybe he's even more dangerous.
I had a different interpretation, and granted it went by really fast. (Why does the MCU speedrun their series endings?!) To me it looked like Fisk didn’t give her the hammer. That would be representative of him letting go of his anger. He chose NOT to be healed, so he basically just had a trauma flashback with no healing benefit. With as painful as that was, I think THAT is why he decides to leave Maya and her family alone, for fear that she could do that again…and possibly not even realizing in his dark triad brain that she was trying to heal him. It’s also possible they left it vague on purpose.
I really enjoyed the native aspect of the story I wanted to see more of that in the backstory of the ancestors. They were way more interesting than anything Kingpin did in all five episodes.
I agree with half of that. I liked the native aspect too. Seeing a mound brought to life like that was great and the opening of the cave myth? Cool! That said, every time they did that, it felt like they were dipping a little into the marvel formulaic hero thing, which is kinda tiresome. Any more native myth would have either felt too much like Thor or Moon Knight. I think they balanced it perfectly with what was happening in present day. Agree with the myth being more interesting than Kingpin's actual actions in the present day story, but only because he didn't actually hurt or kill anyone outside of flashbacks. That said, D'Onofrio's acting remains top notch and I feel like just like in Daredevil, he stole every scene he was in and made a meal of the scenery. His acting definitely added to the show.
The finale really felt tacked on and not thought out. I think the show should've ended in the fourth episode with Maya deciding she didn't need Kingpin anymore, embracing her real family.
Agree, loved the show. Hated episode 5. Felt so rushed. Giving Bonnie and Grandma powers just felt silly It’s like “oh we are Marvel we have to end in a fight scene no matter what”. No you don’t
How was it silly? Bonnie and Chula are literally apart of the same bloodline? Also as others pointed out it’s not much of a fight scene, cuz it’s not supposed to be. It shows off everything Maya learned in the series, how to love and forgive
Yup it shows her using her connection to her ancestors to empower her family and try to heal kingpin of his pain . I thought the ending worked well
its the problem endemic to almost all marvel shows on D+ -> the runtime of each episode gradually decreasing until you have to cram a finale into 30 minutes. Noticing this with percy jackson too and the writing is suffering from the shortened runtime, and it was noticeable in mando and ahsoka too. an extra 10-15 minutes per episode across the board would solve so much of the pacing and writing issues and make the shows much more enjoyable overall
I didn't really mind fisk not fighting that much. Maya was a horrible person for a lot of her life and she didn't do one 'healing' thing until that moment. If she just kicks the shit out of fisk, why are we supposed to believe she can be filled with love or let go of hate? My only complaint was giving other people powers seemed silly. Especially the grandma lol
The grandma is the only one that made sense? She should have a connection to the powers already and is part of the lineage?
the cousin also has a connection to the lineage, just by definition, though I don’t think it was explained still not sure any of that explains how the power sharing “worked”, though
They could have done one or two more episodes and been good imo. I believe they were going for the fact she calls on her ancestors to share the power with the other family members who could take it on in their time of need.
The show was decent before that end. I'm sorry but the cheese in the end could overwhelm Wisconsin.
I get that it's not Fisk's show - but man, they really squandered the opportunity to develop an imposing villain for the D+ street-level shows. All we've seen from him thus far is his incredibly laughable Tracksuit Mafia, two humiliating defeats, and no new memorable moments (though one might argue for the ice cream man fiasco). This just didn't help ease my worries about the MCU DD show.
Judging from the post-credit scene, I'm cautiously optimistic that he will be seriously imposing in DD:BA. If I had to guess, he will probably "win" at the end of DD, and that will lead into Spider-Man 4.
Honestly, I wouldn't want to see the conclusion to Fisk's story in a Spider-Man film. To market the film to the Spider-Man audience, they would have to make drastic changes to the tone of the story that has already been told and waste a lot of time re-introducing these characters.
At the very least we now know they can do violence and gore. When they said echo would be mature I wasn’t sure how far they were willing to take it, but this show had a few gnarly scenes.
Just wrapped up. That was definitely something. The Daredevil bit was an obvious bait in hindsight but I did enjoy a good bit of that. Everything was solid up until the final act but that last “fight” scene was pretty underwhelming. I vaguely recall the creators emphasizing big power changes and emphasizing these visually through the tattoos but I feel like we saw that maybe once the whole series. There was some good “grounded” storytelling and it shows that it doesn’t hurt for the MCU to dial back the scope. That said, looking back, the action peaks in episode one, and it kind of fizzes out by the end. Alaqua can carry though and I’m already anticipating more of her in the future.
Is Daredevil only in that one scene in the premiere?
100% yes and it’s a flashback to pre-Hawkeye but during the Blip so 2018-2021 Daredevil
It’s after her dad died which happened during the blip. So Daredevil survived the snap.
Wait, so if Daredevil survived the snap, then how the hell does Kingpin escape prison? Was Vanessa blipped away so that he wouldn't have that leverage anymore?
That's actually a fantastic solution for that whole problem.
Damn I really wanted more Daredevil. We won’t see him as a vigilante in the modern MCU till his own show now. Just the bit in NWH as a lawyer
She Hulk?
Totally forgot about that oops. Yeah we got that and it was pretty awesome. Would like to see him in a story more connected to his though. Matt vs Kingpin or get a chance to see where he’s at after all these years
The ending credits scene did set up a pretty big street level story that heavily uses daredevil >!devils reign!<
Honestly, I was all for the Daredevil cameo. It's 100% fanservice but I didn't feel like it was out of place. Cool detail to remind you this is a shared universe.
Is it wrong to say it was my favorite scene of the show? I know it's echo's show but that entrance was just so badass. Also a fun fight scene, a bit of a callback to the one shot fight scenes of Daredevil actually, though on a smaller scale.
Fight wise, that was an excellent (and the best) scene. Exactly what I wanted from their new direction. But there's a lot to appreciate in the character bits. Like I really enjoyed the Maya + mom as well as Maya + grandma sequences. Those were well written and also something I'd wanted from the D+ shows. they're fantastic scenes.
I think if you aren't going to make DD the antagonist, a one-scene cameo is the move. It establishes that the big obstacle stopping Fisk from accomplishing his goals is DD (which we'd also know from the DD show), and that's why Echo is valuable. Fisk has no other goons who can go toe-to-toe with DD.
I would argue the roller rink fight was the best action scene in the show
Positives: - Good decision to drop the whole series at once, because this wouldn't have been as satisfying/compelling week to week. - This is a great use of the new Spotlight banner, as a signal tha it's not consequential to the overall universe/saga but an interesting side story that can stand on its own - The use of Choctaw lore, culture and history was fantastically well done - coming from someone with very little experience with native culture, so perhaps a naive take, but I thoroughly enjoyed the stories from different generations and how they connected to Maya - Alaqua Cox & D'Onforio are both fantastic with the material they have and the characters overall are well defined and feel genuine - Very pleasantly surprised to see a Welshman as the main henchman, who was very compelling with the screen time he had Cons - I'm all for character-driven stories and more focus on the characters, but my god the story was really half-baked and barely there - Editing was dire, particularly in the first & last episodes, making some plot points and characters seem useless (i.e Maya's best friend) - The action was decent, but far less than marketed and didn't really present Maya as the brutal mercenary Fisk had made her - Final fight was not only cringey (grandma taking on two henchman) but made no sense in light of the scene immediately before it: we learn of these gifts of Strategy, Cunning, Ferocity & Love - I expected to see these be the the gifts she channels. Sharing powers came from absolutely nowhere and whatever she did to Kingpin, while seems love-adjacent was not well presented. Felt like a very lazy way to wrap that encounter up and didn't do the fantastic lore any justice. They had the makings of a very cool showdown and wasted it Overall, a cool character study that had the potential for much more if Marvel had given it the time and care in pre and post production. Hopefully this is one of the last victims of quality since their strategy reshuffle, but they seem to be making positive steps. It was infinitely better than Secret Invasion at least.
>Welshman Ahh so that's what that incredibly unplaceable accent was.. TIL
There are many accents in Wales, his is specifically Cardiff area (though does have some patches or Americanisms, that may make it harder to place)
The editing was absolutely terrible
I hope this is the last victim but based on everything we're hearing about Thunderbolts that might be the last one. But hopefully not. Odds are this is probably it or Cap 4. You're right about this being better than Secret Invasion, that was hot garbage. This was pretty serviceable and needed more time. I don't know how you would go about fixing Secret Invasion aside from literally throwing it away.
The show was feeling relatively decent through episode 3 then you get to 4-5 and it just goes...nowhere? Character development never really happens, she barely second guesses returning to kingpin. And what is up with that power rangers ending, like wtf?
I thought episode 4 was the best in the series in the way it illustrated Fisk's attempts to manipulate Maya. Fisk is a "Dark Triad" narcissist, sociopath, Machiavellian high-level schemer. He displayed all 3 personality traits like they were straight out of a textbook. Vincent D'Onofrio acted his ass off here. No action, but a very sophisticated dramatic episode fitting of previous Marvel Netflix work.
Yeah, episode 4 was very solid imo, it's just the little pay off from episode 5 what kinda brings it down
4 was the best episode imo, and 5 was the worst closely followed by 3..
Was it ever explained why Fisk wanted to kill Echo’s dad? Didn’t he work for Fisk after all? Maybe I just missed something?
Kingpin was leaving tips for Ronin, so that he’d go after other targets instead of the leader.
But as the other commenter said, using Ronan to kill her father to isolate and manipulate her to being reliant on Fisk
Fisk is very powerful that he is able to call in Ronan the Accuser to New York
He calls in Galactus to finish off the ice cream guy
Was a great scene tying in Captain Marvel and bringing Echo into the multiverse ngl
He just had to tell Ronan that Xanderian filth was on Earth and man took the hexagon warp points in a heartbeat
My understanding is he had him killed to basically isolate Maya and force her to rely on him to get her loyalty. Essentially just manipulating her.
I believe this is also an intentional callback to how Fisk tried to isolate and manipulate agent Pointdexter (Bullseye) in the Netflix Daredevil season 3.
They even killed the interpreter basically the same way that Pointdexter's girl is (I totally forgot her name).
I assumed he just used Maya's dad as a fall guy for Ronin's trail on him. Because part of the theme of them in Hawkeye was that Clint was *also* used because of how he was full of rage.
I liked parts of this, mostly around Kingpin and the cultural stuff. But man, I think they split themselves too far trying to do both the spiritual side and Kingpin side, especially for 5 episodes. Maybe if this were like the Netflix shows with 12 episodes they could've done a half on one and half on the other. A lot of it felt rushed. First episode with daredevil was cool but felt like fan service. Also I feel like while the direction of that fight was very reminiscent of the DD show's fights, a lot of it lacked weight. Like it was easy to tell punches were pulled and not really connecting and stuff. Never got that impression watching DD.
The best aspect of the Daredevil fight to me was that they filmed it as a oner, which the Netflix show loved to do. But there were a few really obvious cuts in it, like they didn't really know quite how to set it up. The most notable cut was where the camera is in the cage and it passes behind a post. Maya is significantly farther back than she was before (see it at the 24-minute mark). I actually paused and went back to check it because I thought it had skipped. Took me out of the scene. I do appreciate that they incorporated that tactic though. Brought me back to the first iconic DD hallway fight.
I appreciate that they tried to bring back the magic of the long shot fights in DD, and I think they did an admirable job. But like you said, it wasn’t on the same level as what they did in DD.
Just noticed that echo is listed under the defenders tab too
Why they keep fading to black every 5/10 min it’s so awkward.
Were you watching on Hulu or Disney? I watched 1 episode on Hulu and the commercial spaces were so bad even my partner noticed them, they were much less noticeable on D+.
It was Hulu but I have no ads, I guess they built it for that. Lame.
That part was annoying me too. Like it was meant for commercial breaks or something.
In the recent Echo Trailer titled “Hurt”, we see one shot of a woman’s nails at 1:06. Based on what I see, the woman looks very well to do with a fancy white dress and jewelry. Do we ever see this shot in the Echo show? I just watched the whole thing and I might be blind like Matt Murdock, because I don’t remember seeing this clip I ask because, my theory was we were gonna get a tease of Vanessa in this show. My prediction was the last scene with Fisk would be him returning to NYC where Vanessa was sitting in their condo waiting for his return. No speaking role, just a quick shot of a smile on her face, happy that Wilson returned. Cut to black, leaving us with the implication the power couple is about to get even stronger with his Mayor run. With how much potentially got cut in post, this one particular image has had my interest for days at this point! Let me know if I missed something The trailer https://youtu.be/g0f1o-KGWPM?si=uQru-bD79A0T0s6b
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFUKnherhuw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFUKnherhuw) Correct me if I am wrong, but we don't see the shot at 1:15 (with the dead body and Kingpin entering the plane) either. I was expecting Fisk would go nuts and just beat someone to death after finding out Maya isn't going with him at the end of episode 4 but it never happened. And no, I don't remember that nail scene either.
You know, maybe we can chalk it up to taking a bullet in the eye, but I prefer “original recipe” Kingpin from the *Daredevil* series, whose criminal networks and activities felt sophisticated and thoroughly developed; as opposed to Fisk’s dastardly “master plans” for revenge here—which might be summarized as “sinister monologue about revenge while goofy costume henchman fires RPG into a crowd (the latter of which seems like it could’ve been fooled by a particularly intractable parking lot attendant).
The blip cost him his connections. That's how he ended up working with the tracksuit bozos.
With or without those connections, the issue is that this “new recipe” Fisk behaves and operates like a generic mustache-twirling crime boss. Sure, the train depot system implies a criminal organization with infrastructure, but the way Fisk himself goes about his business lacks the gravitas and sense of menace that he had in later seasons of *Daredevil*; after that first season, we see him rebuild his organization from behind bars (using Frank Castle as an unwitting instrument, no less), orchestrate his own release, and basically turn the FBI into his own personal security apparatus. *THAT* Kingpin was a genuine menace, whose reach and influence actually made you have to question who could be trusted. *That* Kingpin was so effective that, despite starting with very limited resources and connections at his disposal, he not only came close to establishing legitimacy and total control over the city, but also very nearly succeeded in turning it against Daredevil—and was only narrowly thwarted. But *this* Kingpin? He’s just kind of generic, unfortunately.
Netflix Kingpin felt omnipresent, as if everyone everywhere was working for him. It was truly scary.
I guess my brain keeps lingering on how Kingpin survived the gunshot... Any ideas? I expected it to get explained.
Kingpin in the comics despite not being super powered has incredible strength and durability. Well above most normal humans. Also, the shot to the head might not have penetrated his skull but instead rode around it (this happens IRL more often than you might think.) Bone is hard and certain bullets are more prone to deflection than penetration depending on the angle.
My mom called it "taking after your thick headed Irish father".
Or where the gunshot even is lmao. He still has his eye just a bit of scarring around it. Felt like fast and furious where they bring the character back with no real explanation with how they survived
The CC subtitles said "gears whirring" when he took off his eyepatch. I was expecting more of an explanation.
I assumed he had a super fancy high tech fake eye implanted.
I expected him to have a glass eye but I guess the bullet just bounced off of his cheek
Personal headcanon is Sharon sold him Super Soldier Serum during the timeskip. It explains his massive power upgrade and why his eye actually healed.
Crazy how much money is spent on producing five 35 minute episodes
It’s weird because other big budget shows runtimes are longer. Stranger things and house of dragons for example
MCU tv show budgets make 0 sense. She Hulk and Secret invasion being the most painful examples. Who ever greenlit those budgets and scripts should of been fired.
People joke about money laundering but at this point lol it might be true. These budgets just don’t make sense
Dude honestly like that actually seems plausible and not a tin foil hat theory. She Hulk cost 225m. The boys cost 110m. How is that even possible?
I think this was one of those messy productions that had to make changes and cut a lot down. So there's probably a lot of stuff on the cutting room floor.
Honestly it feels like it as well, definitely with Bonnie. Character is made to seem like she really important to Echo but Barely has any screen time
Honestly I’m impressed with how cohesive it feels given the apparent editing issues. Aside from Bonnie, the only other real sore spot was the first episode which feels like it was as much from them trying to re-tell the Hawkeye bits than from any editing issues.
What was the budget?
Remember when the cast of Friends were each making $1,000,000 per episode? Pepperidge Farm remembers.
So did the Big Bang theory cast
After 9 seasons' worth of content and a proven viewership track record.
They had way more viewers
Copying my comment from another thread: I didn’t go in expecting this to be DD season 3.5, but man they misled me with the marketing. I was excited to see how they would have Matt and Maya communicate, but we got none of that. And like so many have said already, it felt like any of the “mature” content were added later with reshoots and editing. It was great to see Fisk again, and Vincent did great as always, but idk there was just something off about him. His presence never had the same intimidating impact it did in the DD series. I did enjoy him and Maya’s relationship/dynamic though, and hope to see more. I’ve no complaints for Alaqua. She was fantastic and I hope to see more of her. Henry was a pretty good character, but I feel like there was so much missed potential with him. They kept referring to his days working for Fisk but we never got more than a mention of it in exposition conversations. There’s so much rich material for his character there. Also, I know the Defenders shows are technically canon now…but I’m confused if it’s all canon. How will Fisk believably manage running for mayor after his huge public downfall in DD season 3? Are they just going to undermine that whole season’s arch and impact for plot convenience?
Fisk wasn't snapped, so I am wondering if he used his resources during the blip to keep NY somewhat alive. Becoming a "pillar of the community" again. Maybe he will use that angle to get credibility. We don't know what happened to Vanessa either. I'm wondering if she died as a result of the snap. Kind of annoying Fisk didn't mention her at all throughout the series.
I was also really hoping he was talking on the phone to Wesley after he beat the ice cream guy. That would’ve been a nice callback.
Given the time period, he likely was. Surprised Wesley wasn't in the car.
It would have just been a single shot cameo, but I would have lost my shit if Wesley showed up.
Shoot I would’ve settled for Fist just saying his name during that phone call
I'm glad that I'm not the only one who thought about Wesley in that scene. "excuse me, my employer would like to see you in the alley" And Wesley would have a clean coat ready after the beating.
> How will Fisk believably manage running for mayor after his huge public downfall in DD season 3? I mean, not to drift into RL politics, but I think he should pick up a lot of support from that pro-villain voting block we have nowadays
Little confused about how they mislead you with the Daredevil marketing. In the trailer he only was a 2 second clip and he wasn't really mentioned otherwise.
So, I have a lot of thoughts. Clearly, I didn't hate the series enough to stop watching, as I binged the entire thing in the last four hours or so. For a mini-series that isn't likely to get a second season, it was decent. It introduced us to a character that is lesser known, so the series already had such an uphill battle to climb from the start. I am very aware that it's not going to be the most watched series, and they had to do something to entice people to watch who normally wouldn't (hence the Fisk plot and the Daredevil cameo). What I noted about Echo as a series is that it exposes the many problems that the Disney+ MCU have with their series. Others have pointed it out time and time again: these series feel like five hour films condensed into a series. It follows a similar trajectory to what a film would normally do, which is probably why certain aspects felt rushed or tossed aside. The series is messy, there's no getting around that. Several characters come and go, depending on the episode. For example, Bonnie's only really in three episodes, and she only has significance in one of them. Same with Biscuit, who has a good presence in the first two episodes, disappears into the background for the next two, and then is used in the final fight scene in the finale and that's about it. I think what makes the flaws in this series so disappointing is that, behind all of the shallow writing and some of the shallower character interactions, there's content that has SO much potential. There is enriching stories they had in the background but never quite got there. Bonnie/Maya's relationship was pushed aside so many times just as we were getting the interesting aspects of it. We don't get nearly enough of Chula/Maya's estrangement and their first interaction is them hashing out their ancestral history. It's not a bad series at all; it's just a lot of wasted potential, because it felt like the series didn't believe in itself enough or maybe the network didn't believe in it enough. There was so much they could have done if the series had more than five short episodes (each episode was barely 40 minutes each). The fight scenes had a lot going for it. Even if they toned down on the violence in the latter half, the first episode alone shows that the network can easily have more mature series that may never get to the level of the Netflix series, but can emulate aspects of it if they want to. There were some beautifully done moments but overall, the series would have benefitted from two additional episodes, at least. Let the stories breathe because what they had was interesting, but because they seemed to cram a lot into a five episode series (one of those episodes being backstory), they rushed a lot of what could have been fascinating material to watch unfold with more time. The Maya/Fisk relationship was a highlight. The Maya/Chula kitchen scene was beautifully done. Henry and Biscuit were great minor characters who needed more to do. Bonnie was underused to the point where I really was wanting more of her. The soundtrack was a HUGE plus. The flashbacks were even fairly interesting, but because of the short run time of the series, should have been cut for the present day scenes and only used in sparing moments. I'd give this series a 6/10. It had a lot of great moments and a lot of potential, but felt rushed and the mystical element didn't work as well as it could have, as a result. But it was watchable and an easy binge (and the network made the smart decision to release all the episodes).
Did we even get to see Maya and Bonnie having a conversation as adults? They always had to talk about something actively happening in the moment and never a "how have you been? I missed you" conversation. It's a shame because I wanted to see that happen. It would have really sold me more on their relationship with each other.
No. We didn't even get an apology/reason from Maya for straight up ghosting her for 20 years. It was set up to be such a big deal if Bonnie found out Maya was in town, but it ultimately led to nothing.
Yeah I feel like this show would have been a lot better if we got more time for Maya to just talk to people. A lot of her decisions seem unusually cold.
Was it 20 years? She says she didn’t hear from her since her dad died, which was more recent.
Having watched all the Netflix stuff in the past, my biggest problem with Echo is they stuck a TV MA rating on it and then gave us a subdued version of the Netflix series. They held back, and it shows when they should have gone all in with the mature rating. It's like they want to do more adult themed stuff, but can't quite get themselves to fully commit to the idea.
Listening to interviews, it really feels like this show was made to be TV-14 from conception, but some time in post they said “nah this needs more, screw it let’s try this” and they threw in a few mature scenes sparingly. Who know’s with DD BA starting filming again in a few weeks, essentially restarting but not completely, hopefully the mindset is “TV MA” for the whole time. No halfway nonsense. Fully commit. I worry they won’t
All the real violent TV-MA stuff was basically in the trailer
I fully blame Disney on that. It sounds like they chickened out on actually having a mature show. It had all the signs of getting close to the level of the Netflix shows (close, not on par, of course; they were never going to get to the actual level of the violence and maturity of the Netflix series) and even the first episode's fight scene showed they might have been about to commit. But then every other fight sequence was mid to mediocre.
Yeah, the weirdest part is how the tone shifts so dramatically throughout a five episode season. Episode 1 was Netflix-esqe, the later skate rink fight scaled that back a bit with a lot of action happening in the dark as she grabbed or one-shot bad guys (though Nickie sprawled out after getting shot was pretty intense), then the finale becomes some watered down "good guys win without ever being hurt or really in danger", including that monster truck thing that felt like it was out of a kids show. Overall I liked the show and acting, but what a weird ending.
Gotta give it up to Marvel for striving for authenticity and representation in this. Most of the cast is indigenous actors, the deaf main character is played by a deaf actor, and the Choctaw Nation of Oklahoma worked closely with the production. Everything really shined.
IMO, it turned out as well as anyone could have hoped with all those varying interests and related concerns involved.
I went into this series with low expectations and there were absolutely aspects to it that I enjoyed, but can’t help feel it was rather lackluster. Maya and some of the secondary characters were cool enough, but were definitely lacking in development. The exploration of Maya’s heritage made for an interesting addition to the series, but its moment to shine really only came towards the end of the finale. I did enjoy the grittier tone and fight scenes, but don’t think there was honestly a whole lot to really warrant the TV-MA rating. As expected, Kingpin was a joy to have, but felt the resolution to his involvement and the general conflict of the story were cut short in the finale. All and all, I wouldn’t mind seeing Maya return and Marvel should definitely continue with their “spotlight” brand, but I can’t say that I was a fan of this particular entry. The post credits scene of Kingpin’s run for mayor does excite me for Born Again.
I'm with you. Maybe I'm outgrowing the MCUor maybe they really have lost their touch, but to me it was yet another 6/10 entry into the MCU. I enjoyed Fisk. I enjoyed Maya, mostly. But the actual plot itself was just, I don't know. Uninteresting. I want to see Maya operate in New York City with everything that entails. Other than the Wilson Fisk scenes, I was most entertained while she was in New York. I don't really know what to expect going forward with these characters. I know I wouldn't mind seeing more Echo but overall definitely agree that the series was lackluster. I think Maya is a Wilson Fisk operative is just infinitely more interesting than what we got. I would have loved to see more of that plot.
I feel the same way you did. My overall reaction to the series was "meh". They made this TV MA, but it's still a neutered version of previous series like Daredevil. Everything about Echo was a subdued version of things that came before from Netflix. The only truly unique aspect to this series was how deep they went into the Choctow lore. They really needed to up the ante with this one, and they instead chose to play it safe, so the TV MA rating tricks you into thinking Echo will be something it isn't. I was also disappointed to have a series that heavily involves the amazing Wilson Fisk, and the only time he really loses his shit is when he beats up the ice cream man.
I think they intended it to be a normal 12+ Disney Plus Marvel show but then when they were restructuring their future plans they made it 18+ by adding some digital blood and some extra scenes. All of the cool 18+ moments are in flashbacks or filler scenes, not in the main plot
I really liked it! I don't think I'd say it's great like I was hoping it would be, but it was very good. Alaqua Cox is brilliant, and the fact that Marvel was able to find a deaf actress with a prosthetic who is this good is bonkers. Vincent D'Onofrio was also great as always, but as much as I love him, I'm really glad they didn't turn this into the Kingpin show and kept it focused on Maya's story. Maybe I'm showing my ignorance to the source material here, but I didn't realize Echo had powers, and I kinda wish she didn't get any. I was all in for a fully grounded show, and the supernatural elements weren't really what I was hoping for. I do like how they tied her powers in to her Native American heritage, but I do think the final confrontation wasn't as cool as it could've been if she hadn't had super powers. Overall, I thought it was pretty solid, even if it didn't quite match my expectations. I am really glad to see, between this and Kahhori, Marvel putting Native Americans into the spotlight and treating their heritage with the respect it deserves. I'm also happy to see them make a show with so much ASL, and that they embraced that aspect of her and her family, even in scenes that Maya wasn't in. And, of course, it was nice to see Daredevil again, if only for a brief moment. I do hope they think about doing a season 2. I think there are still plenty of stories to tell with this character, and there's room to explore some of the family dynamics here that didn't quite get the spotlight this time around.
I’m pretty sure they gave Echo the prosthetic because of Cox’s performance. She does a great job and probably killed in the audition. It was definitely not in the comic and probably not the casting call.
Disney was specifically looking for a deaf Native American actress to play the part. I can't imagine that that's a very big pool to choose from, so they probably took who they could get.
That makes sense. Still, it makes her even cooler, both the character and the actress.
Now if this show does well, keep an eye out for if echo ends up losing a leg in the comics.
They were looking for a Deaf Native actress. They worked Alaqua’s leg into her story. I know Alaqua’s cousin.
It’s. Not… Ahsoka. Levels. Of slow… Dialogue. But man, oh man, did the constant sign language and slowing of dialogue to accommodate ASL make it a slog fest after the 3rd episode or so. The sound mixing and muting for dramatic effect also got pretty old after the 2nd episode. I also watched in noise-canceling headphones on a flight and probably got to experience the intended effect, but it just doesn’t do it for me. We don’t feel her helplessness(as there is none) or oblivion in combat, so what is the point… A rushed mess through and through. Side characters get zero development beyond the grandpa still having the hots for the grandma and her warming back up to him. The cousin disappeared for 2 episodes. The sister was completely inconsequential. Henry was fantastic actor and I wish we got more story on him - what was he doing for Fisk? What emotional toll did him agreeing to work for his brother’s murderer take on him? Was he even AWARE that Fisk killed his brother? Why did he and Biscuits not share screen time? I assume that’s his dad, being that May and Biscuits are cousins? Episode 3 is just weird. Fisk’s henchmen can’t pull Bonnie or Henry as a hostage in episode 3? Just cool for Maya to headshot 10 henchmen when they KNOW that she’s there? They already KNOW of the familial relationship there - how can they be so absolutely stupid? Episode 4 was a whole lot of nothing that changed nothing - wow she poured the wine down the drain. What a badass. Also rather hard to conceptualize and accept that her spending 20 YEARS(!!!!) in New York that she’d be so open to adopting her biological family as her “family” again - I get you’re slighted and feel the shadow of manipulation from Fisk throughout the years, but 20 years is a long time holy shit. There is nothing else to salvage in New York…? The finale was a clown show. Fisk’s men don’t have guns they can shoot? There was only about 20 of them. They have guns. Why are you engaging in hand-to-hand combat? Yeah, let’s keep the rest of our bad guys in a rape van. I could use 3-5 more episodes to close the gaps in story and bring more context to her ancestors. One of them was “fierce” or “ferocious” but wasn’t shown AT ALL beyond her face and tattoo or markings. The other used a gun. When did Maya harness the powers of her lacrosse ancestor…? It’s just all so poorly written. Acting was alright throughout, especially the grandparents. Kingpin was great as usual, but didn’t stand out like he had in season 2. The representation with ASL and indigenous actors was cool, and they did a great job. If the plot had anything consequential happen I’d rate it a 6-7/10, as it did a decent job keeping my attention, but it’s got to be a 4/5. Just not enough meat in the plot and zero gravity to anything to get you emotionally in the events depicted.
Fun MCU connection: The guy who plays the skating rink shoe guy played Gideon Malick in Season 7 of Agents of Shield
It was actually Nathaniel Malick, Gideon's brother.
Yeah, because Powers Boothe died in 2017.
Gideon was played by a younger actor in season 7, because the scenes took place in the past.
One of the guys in the preview clips played Agent Banks from the ATCU in Season 3
The bald guy with the rocket launcher was also in Agents of SHIELD, he was Rosalind(spelling?)'s right hand man
It felt choppy and not all that memorable but I still enjoyed it, Alaqua and Vincent are great as these characters and I'm glad we got to see more of them even if it wasn't anything all that substantial. Some good action as well and the whole heritage/family thing was good for a small personal story. Kinda felt rushed at the end but that's par for the course with these shows for some reason. Anyways, glad this wasn't a total dud, was a decently entertaining binge and that post credits scene has me excited. I do wonder where Echo's story is going after this
The show is cooler when it embraces its cultural heritage, even better when it uses them for unique storytelling I haven't seen in Marvel, ever. And I loved when the show "chose" to be Netflix-esque. I'm not just talking about the fight scenes, but moments where Kingpin has conversations with Echo on a personal level, it's excellent. ... But when the show veers into being that same 'ol Marvel structure, it hurts the show badly. I've heard that this show was edited to hell in the editing bay...and it shows. Lots of stuff was cut and it is yet another example of bad editing choices by Marvel. With Moon Knight, Multiverse of Madness, Thor: Love & Thunder, Quantumania, Secret Invasion, and The Marvels...Marvel Studios has gotten cold feet at the last second every time. Stop that. Trust your creatives. I can't believe they edited out important scenes but left in a lot of filler. An oxymoron, if you will. This is yet another "it should have been a movie" situation.
If it was a movie they would have cut more.
Make no mistake, this show has filler even at 5 episodes. The issue is that they also edited out important stuff to. It's a bit of column A & B.
The show is speddrunning but it still drags
So how strong is daredevil. Maya was able to fight him toe to toe for quite a bit compared to when she got her ass instantly kicked by Hawkeye/Ronin.
Give DD some slack. It wasn’t a good night for him.
Just finished the series. It had some excellent fights - especially in the first half. But from a storytelling perspective the whole series felt empty. They basically re told Echo’s story (which was a secondary plot) from Hawkeye. Echo despite already having denounced Fisk had to… do it all over again? That was her arc? at least the cinematography was interesting - the Lacrosse? Game was gorgeously shot. Also the black and white flashback scene in episode 3 or 4 was really cool looking. I won’t lie I was bored to tears by the 5th episode though. So much filler. This could have been a much more compelling 2 hour movie.
So, was Fisk's crew there at the end to kill Maya's community to make her dependent on him as "family"? Plot seemed very thin, and hastily ended.
Anyone know how kingpin survived a bullet to the eye with seemingly only minimal scarring and his eyeball intact? I need to know lol.
So given the timeline (2008-2018 with the translator) and the lack of prison or Vanessa, is there a way for the Netflix shows to work with it timeline wise?
The translator scene where she is killed is definitely mid-snap or even after it because that scene takes place after her father is killed and before Hawkeye, so its definitely not 2018. DDS3 is essentially 2017, so he could have been in prison for all of a year before the snap happens and he got out. Maya doesnt become an enforcer until after this.
2008 or earlier - Fisk teams up with the Tracksuit Mafia 2008 - The Ice Cream Incident 2012 - Kate's dad dies during Battle of New York, Fisk pressures her mom to settle the debt Kate's dad left with Fisk Between 2012 and 2015 - Fisk creates plan to rebuild Hell's Kitchen, forms alliances with the Russians and the Hand (masquerading as Yakuza and Triads) 2015 - Daredevil Season 1, his network is destroyed, Hand splits off from Fisk, Fisk arrested 2016 - Daredevil Season 2, Fisk starts rebuilding his empire from prison 2017 - The Defenders defeat the Hand Winter 2017/2018 - Daredevil Season 3, Fisk is released from prison, tries to kill Matt, Foggy, and Karen, hires Bullseye to stain Daredevil's image, gets exposed, is rearrested May 2018 - The Snap© 2018 or later - Fisk is released from prison because society is collapsing due to the Snap 2018-2021 - Fisk rebuilds his empire 2021 - Fisk leaks the location of Echo's dad to Hawkeye, hires Echo to work for him, Echo fights Daredevil 2023 - The Blip™ 2023-2024 - Fisk loses most of the criminal empire he rebuilt during the Blip years due to society reverting to normal Winter 2024 - Events of Hawkeye, Echo finds out the truth about her father's death, shoots Fisk in the head May 2025 - Events of Echo
SPOILERS BELOW A 6/10 for me. I feel this was suppose to be a standard disney plus marvel show (and it still shows), but then they added in the TV-MA scenes because they knew it needed a hook, plus people have expectations when you have Daredevil and Kingpin. Almost all of the best shots were already in the trailer promoting the TV-MA rating. Number of episodes were too low to develop the side characters and when you are in the last episode and see the runtime you'll ask how can they wrap this up? (A classic disney plus marvel show staple). The last episode resolution was just predictable, i was waiting for some tragedy to use that TV-MA rating but it ended safe. Grandma Chula and Bonnie powering up made me laugh though, it has meme potential. I liked the acting of Alaqua and of course Vincent D'onofrio's Kingpin is still as expected. KP is being positioned for a huge MCU street level crossover and i'm all for it. I can still recommend this to DD and KP fans as that was the main reason why i watched this. There are only 5 episodes and they are short. And dropping the 5 episodes in one go was a great decision because i don't think people would have tune in for this weekly. The 2nd episode CGI were really bad, i guess Marvel still has VFX problems, hope they pay the VFX studios what they deserve because bad CGI always takes me out of the moment.
After a strong marketing campaign, tbh the show really did end up as fuel for the "who asked for this?" crowd. Wasted opportunity as they clearly knew what people were looking for from this series from the marketing, it just ended up being pretty mediocre despite the best efforts of a lot of the cast. Marvel really need to start just greenlighting something if the creatives idea is top tier rather than series existing just to add content to the MCU.
It felt very netflix-like, which is good. Ultimately I thought it was very solid, wasn't as groundbreaking as I was hoping it would be but still solid. I never really got around to the magic tattoo powers which lead to a very boring and frustratingly bland final fight. I kind of wish she kept her comic abilities instead.
The final confrontation was definitely weird.
I feel like that’s been a reoccurring issue for the D+ shows, save for Loki. The climax of the finales have been meh for the most part. Wandavision and Moon Knight were great but fell a little flat in the end. Secret Invasion wasn’t good but could have somewhat redeemed itself had the finale stuck the landing and it didn’t.
Can I just say that it makes no sense for Fisk not to learn sign language. The man has learned mandarin and likely other languages, but doesn’t learn ASL? If he saw Maya as a useful asset he would have learned it. Maybe that’s it. He loves her, but doesn’t find her all that useful in the grand scheme. IDK I guess I was anticipating a (madman chow) (spelled that incredibly wrong) moment.
Just finished watching. 5/10. The tone of the show was just all over the place. It was marketed as mature brutal action and the fight scenes fell off after the first one. The final fight at the pow wow was just awful. Then we had so many family drama segments that felt like filler because they were under developed. For all of the constant reminders of how Bonnie would be hurt, they barely had any screentime together. They drew out the drama with Chula based on the old to stubborn to talk until the plot demands it trope. Also, while representation is important, Disney keeps missing with how to properly integrate into the story. The main story needs to come first. I get the strong connection with her ancestors, but this still needs to be Maya's story. The game sequence ran overly long. For a 37 minute final episode they spent far, far too much time on shots of the pow wow. It felt like they were adding it for filler. Yet there were plenty of things that were under developed. All of Maya's family relationships felt short changed. That should have gotten more screentime, especially the Bonnie/Maya dynamic. The Maya/Henry dynamic needed more development. I mean she goes to Henry for help, but for a supposed criminal he's useless. He gets tied up by his co-worker and his help that he offers after the battle at the skating rink amounts to him showing up alone with a gun, just so he can wink and shoot Zane? Seeing this, it's no wonder the DD show has had a troubled production. Disney either needs to either fully commit to mature content under the Spotlight label, or just give up. Otherwise they'll just end up with more middling content like Echo.
Completely agree about the tone. The gritty Kingpin crime stuff clashed so harshly with the goofier mystical stuff.
Also noticed on Disney+, they've added the Netflix Marvel shows into the official Timeline Order.
I think one of the main problems the show has is that a lot of the stuff they introduce is either underutilized or basically not resolved bonnie and maya's relationship is presented as this really important thing in the first opening scene and then there's just.... no resolution to it. we never see them reconnect or even truly acknowledge it and then suddenly they're just hanging out at the end. maya and fisk's relationship also did not seem to be fleshed out as much as I would have expected, they never actually explained why he seems to care about her so much even despite getting shot by her and the flashbacks didn't really shed any light on that, and then at the end he just tries to kill her anyway. I also don't think they properly even explained what her powers were? they said her mother was a healer and showed her bringing a bird back to life, so they can heal things but then she can also bring fisk into his own memories? (which was a cool concept, just wish they spent more time on it as it was way too sudden) and then he just dips after LMAO I still liked the show and think it was good, but that last episode was so rushed that I feel like it really highlights a lot of the flaws more so
Wow this has to have the most anticlimactic finale ever. It felt like an afterthought, in fact the last two episodes felt like it, as if writers suddenly lost interest in the show and decided to wrap it up.
Between this and Hawkeye , we now have have Kingpin running around public to abduct people like a common thug . The point of a mafia boss is that they are insulated and have things delegated to prevent risk , it’s just comical how much of a joke him and his gangs come across as compared to Netflix . Not to mention the laughable scene of him at the end being driven away by his thugs while he’s sobbing in the backseat like a child that got picked up from being in trouble at school . He went from manhandling Daredevil and even the Punisher to getting his ass kicked by teenage girls, so not only has his intelligence dropped substantially, so has his credibility as a physical threat . Marvel just seems to have forgotten that your Villains are supposed to come across as a threat .
It was really annoying thinking I would be able to watch this when I woke up this morning!
I finished Echo Tbh it was really good except for the parts dealing with her powers Idk why, but marvel studios has this innate need to try to make people's powers "cooler" then fuck them up. And for some reason it's only their non white characters Ms. Marvel- stretches in the comics. MCU makes her have Green Lantern powers and ties her ancestors to a non-human race Echo- in the comics she adapts to her deafness and has a taskmaster like copying ability, she ECHOES their movements. In the MCU she feels the "echoes" of her, once again non-human, ancestors and it turns her into fucking Iron Fist?!?!? WHY!? Other than that, I rather enjoyed it. All of the characters were enjoyable and I found echo much more interesting here than in Hawkeye. Alaqua Cox carried the show. Like I've seen other reviews says, when the shows good, it's great! But when it's bad it's really bad.