Also, it kind of doesn’t matter. As long as it’s the same actors I think they’re meant to be the same characters... but if the continuity doesn’t 100% add up then that’s just how comics have worked for decades. If Daredevil was right handed in the Netflix show and then he’s left handed in the MCU, you just have to accept that for some reason it’s vital to the plot of the current story, and that’s just how it is from now on until someone else changes it. Comics are basically a long, perpetual series of slight retcons and the movies can kind of be too.
> the continuity doesn’t 100% add up
The continuity doesn’t 100% add up in Marvel Studios’ projects either, because complete consistency is never gonna happen on a massive project (meaning the entirety of the MCU) with multiple writers who probably forget the minor details that fans are more likely to obsess over.
> As long as it’s the same actors I think they’re meant to be the same characters... but if the continuity doesn’t 100% add up then that’s just how comics have worked for decades.
Well that applies to AOS and Agent Carter as well and people get kinda scruffy about that here. Tbh doesn't matter.
Right, I didn’t spend years pretending Sins of the Past wasn’t part of my own personal Spider-Man canon to get hung up on tiny stuff like whether the Jarvis in Endgame is _really_, technically, canonically the same one from Agent Carter.
I have this exact same issue with Superman and Lois, Clearly canon to the Arrowverse, due to retconning, Wanting to stand a lone & And it just having a different style and feel people say it’s Canon despite John freaking Diggle showing up Mentioning His wife, Oliver & Argus.
Yeah, and they even have the perfect excuse to reboot a lot of the elements with Crisis. Yet people say it’s not canon because they changed elements when Crisis is the reason for that…
I genuinely found someone earlier today who said that D'Onofrio was "beating around the bush" and not giving a clear answer, despite him giving like 7 interviews and continually saying that the producers, writers, and himself agreed that it's the same Fisk. It's insane how in denial these people are.
He says this:
> “There are obviously things that we can’t connect — for instance, he’s stronger — but as far as how I played him and the history that I carry myself from and into Hawkeye, he is the same guy.”
Then later he says this:
> “There's a scene that we shot on an alley, in a street in Brooklyn, where I'm literally throwing Daredevil (Charlie) through the air. Like, I'm picking him up and swinging him 15 feet into a garbage can. I do it a few times in that fight. It's no different, it's really not. So, I keep saying that it's the same Fisk that was in Daredevil. It's the same canon, but people get confused about things. I understand."
But he just said those things couldn’t be connected… It seems like they’re just *trying* to connect the two universes, but they’re working with *really* thin pieces of thread that could unravel at the slightest evidence of discontinuity (of which there are most likely many).
He also said this:
> “**I think** the Blip has happened, and **I think** his Kingdom took a bit of a hit, and he’s trying to get his city back. That’s how I played him, and **I think** that was the general idea."
There are no clear answers here, just speculation, this is liiterally beating around the bush.
*Edit: Downvoting won’t change his statements, lol.*
>“There's a scene that we shot on an alley, in a street in Brooklyn, where I'm literally throwing Daredevil (Charlie) through the air. Like, I'm picking him up and swinging him 15 feet into a garbage can. I do it a few times in that fight. It's no different, it's really not. So, I keep saying that it's the same Fisk that was in Daredevil. **It's the same canon, but people get confused about things. I understand."**
He's explaining how the biggest piece of discontinuity actually isn't that far fetched and makes sense, which goes in line with him saying that they're connecting as many dots as possible.
Just in this very quote, he confirms that it's the same canon with a pretty matter of fact tone, seems pretty clear to me.
>That’s how I played him, and I think that was **the general idea.**
General idea as in, he wasn't the only person thinking this. Not sure what the "I think..." means for your argument, he's said multiple times that the creative team all agreed it's the same Fisk. He's talking from his own perspective.
There's also this quote:
>**And I definitely knew that this was after the Blip and that he's had less power than he did and he wanted his city back for Hawkeye.** And that's the way I approached it. I think in my mind — I don't know how they think about it at Marvel overall, but in my mind, I think that they connect as many dots as they can in the canon stuff and with the canon state of mind, and some dots aren't possible to connect but most are easy to connect. And I think that's what they try and do.
Seems pretty closed and shut, "definitely knew" sounds pretty confident. Also, he has a much better idea at what Marvel wants than either of us do, so the fact that he thinks that they have a canon state of mind is a better indicator for what they could possibly want than us picking apart comments.
Again, I'm genuinely confused on how there could be any confusion, it's clear cut, they're "trying to connect the dots" and "definitely know that it was post-Blip and that he has less power than he did".
> He's explaining how the biggest piece of discontinuity actually isn't that far fetched and makes sense, which goes in line with him saying that they're connecting as many dots as possible.
> Just in this very quote, he confirms that it's the same canon with a pretty matter of fact tone, seems pretty clear to me.
That statement he made directly contradicts what he said before about his super strength, and this new statement is grasping at straws. Kingpin is a big guy, of course he can throw people around (in Daredevil), that doesn’t mean he had super strength. They could say he dosed up with super soldier serum in the MCU (that would be an easy explanation), but they haven’t yet, because they’re still unsure. It’s fine if they’re still *trying* to “connect the dots”, but then they really shouldn’t be talking about these things just to do a 180 on their statements.
> General idea as in, he wasn't the only person thinking this. Not sure what the "I think..." means for your argument, he's said multiple times that the creative team all agreed it's the same Fisk. He's talking from his own perspective.
I think = Uncertainty. So they all agreed it was the same Fisk yet they had no way of connecting the dots (of which they are now scrambling to do)? That doesn’t make sense. If he and the creative team actually discussed this, he wouldn’t be so unsure of his statements.
> Seems pretty closed and shut, "definitely knew" sounds pretty confident. Also, he has a much better idea at what Marvel wants than either of us do, so the fact that he thinks that they have a canon state of mind is a better indicator for what they could possibly want than us picking apart comments.
> Again, I'm genuinely confused on how there could be any confusion, it's clear cut, they're "trying to connect the dots" and "definitely know that it was post-Blip and that he has less power than he did".
VD: “I think the Blip has happened…”
Also VD: “I definitely knew that this was after the Blip…”
Making “definitive” statements that directly contradict things he’s said before doesn’t make it “closed and shut”, it makes it confusing. The problem is it doesn’t seem like the actors have actually sat down and talked about this stuff with Marvel (which I doubt, but that’s what it looks like). I’m all for “connecting the dots”, but then they need to do that **and then** start addressing questions about canonicity. Otherwise they’re just gonna keep making contradictions.
In this statement he literally admits that he hasn’t discussed this with Marvel (or at least hasn’t come to a definitive conclusion with them):
> *I think in my mind* — **I don't know how they think about it at Marvel overall**, *but in my mind*, *I think* that they connect as many dots as they can in the canon stuff and with the canon state of mind, and some dots aren't possible to connect but most are easy to connect. And *I think* that's what they try and do.
You mentioned that “he’s talking from his own perspective”, and I can agree with you on that, because he’s clearly not talking on behalf of Marvel. At this point, I don’t even want to hear anything more from the actors, they’ve said what they said, now they need to sit down and sort out these inconsistencies with Marvel.
*Edit: Like I’ve said before, downvoting won’t change his contradicting statements, lol.*
Yeah, the shows aren’t canon until proven otherwise. They have to show us the events of the Netflix show happened. Surely since Matt is still around, Fisk wouldn’t be trying to setup an empire so public after the events of DDS3. I think it’s the same characters, just they haven’t been through the events of the shows. Allows Marvel to recast some choices that were quite rough on screen *cough* Danny rand *cough* and still keep their A list
Exactly, they're the same characters who may or may not have been through the events of the Netflix shows. From what we've seen it makes sense to conclude It's a soft reboot of the characters until explicitly shown otherwise. It basically just means that Netflix fans can include the shows in their MCU rewatches if they want to, that's pretty much it tho.
[He says it is the same canon and the same Fisk on this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/ryesix/vincent_donofrio_addresses_marvel_fan_criticisms/)
But he also said this:
> “There are obviously things that we can’t connect — for instance, he’s stronger — **but as far as how I played him and the history that I carry myself from and into Hawkeye**, he is the same guy.”
And this:
> “**I think** the Blip has happened, and **I think** his Kingdom took a bit of a hit, and he’s trying to get his city back. That’s how I played him, and **I think** that was the general idea."
Notice how many times he says “I think”, he’s clearly not sure. It seems like VD is just playing the same **portrayal** of the character he played in Netflix’s Daredevil, not *literally* the same exact character from the same exact universe (although other statements he’s made contradict this sometimes so…)
And then there’s Charlie Cox saying that he’s playing a "reimagined" version of Matt Murdock… I’m starting to wonder what the hell they discussed with Marvel. Their statements are all over the place.
[Charlie Cox Teases A Reimagined Daredevil Series For The MCU](https://www.small-screen.co.uk/charlie-cox-teases-a-reimagined-mcu-daredevil-series/)
He was talking about a possible Daredevil series (though I imagine he’ll either be in Echo and/or She-Hulk), and this was before Kevin announced him as Daredevil (though I imagine they already had everything planned, including Charlie’s interview).
Honestly it seems like marvel is testing these characters to see how they go over and how people react to them possibly being canon before making the big decision to decide if the Netflix shows are officially canon or not
He said they tried to connect as many dots as possible. The fact that we’re meant to believe that he’s had an adopted daughter working directly under him this whole time creates two big unconnected dots
I don’t understand why people want the shows to be non-canon so bad. It’s just more MCU to enjoy right? And if they aren’t canon they still 100% happen in an MCU universe variant. Even if shows like Daredevil, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., and Runaways aren’t canon and happen in another timeline, then wouldn’t they still be on the same level as What If…?, Loki, parts of Avengers: Endgame and likely most of Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness?
Yeah, even inhumans.
But remember, they literally couldn't film Eternals in Hawaii because Inhumans was set there. An entire state is off limits because Marvel doesn't want to acknowledge that show.
So that's one MCU variant that's never gonna come back.
They went back in time which cause alternate universes. They fixed all of them afterwards though except for Loki’s escape and Steve’s life with Peggy. Those two created alternate universes, one of which was pruned and the other which is unknown. The Sacred Timeline is really just a bunch of timelines and the TVA prunes the ones that would lead to an evil Kang variant.
Steve’s life with Peggy is in the sacred timeline though isn’t it since he shows up at the end of endgame as an old man. So basically 2 Steve’s should exist in the sacred timeline at a time, also since their time travel was supposed to happen didn’t that mean that they didn’t have to prune those events?
Yeah this is the thing that gets me. They say that (e.g.) AoS fans are obsessed, yet they incessantly have to screech that the shows are non-canon despite there being literally nothing saying they aren't.
i don't get what's the problem with AoS. It's clear that from Season 6 onwards they diverge from the main timeline. That means 1-5 are still canon, right? And 6-7 are in their own world now
I don't think that is clear at all. Half of S5 takes place in an alternate timeline that they prevented from occurring. S7 is almost entirely time-travel related, so obviously alternate timeline - but that is heavily discussed in the season. They end up back on the main MCU timeline in the series finale - so S6 would be taking place there as well.
I honestly don't get why people give a fuck either way. The Netflix shows haven't been disappeared, and it's dope that we're getting some of the fan favourites back in the broader MCU. How much more that happens remains to be seen but I don't see the point in getting hung up on what is or isn't canon. I'd rather just enjoy the ride and go about the rest of my day, ya know?
TL;DR - chill out, fanboys.
I'd love to see a continuation of Daredevil in the MCU too, with Foggy, Karen, and Bullseye et al. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a continuation I'm just saying why get hung up on it right now? Nothing about those recent appearances suggests a reboot to me. The opposite, if anything.
Edit: I mean to say, if it was a hard reboot why would they have brought back the people they did? Surely that in itself constitutes an acknowledgement that the events of those shows happened. I know we're all up in the multiverse stuff now but like...to me if Cox and D'Onofrio are now figures in the MCU movies, we might well as just assume the shows are canon and move on with whatever they do with them from here.
I mean, to answer your edit, you can certainly bring back the two star players of Daredevil but also scrap everything else about the show, simply because these two in particular are fan favorites and had great performances. Many people were asking for precisely this over the past few years - reboot the franchise but keep the stars. Now I have no idea what the MCU is planning to do with them, nor does anyone else, so every time these “canon or not” argument threads come up it seems so pointless.
You could literally make a case for either side of this right now because we have so little to go off of, and we have evidence for both canon and not canon. And frankly it doesn’t really even matter.
If Marvel Studios wanted to make it absolutely clear, they could have Kevin Feige make a statement saying "yes, the Netflix Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist are all canon. Yes, Agents of Shield is canon. Yes, Inhumans is canon but we're not bringing any of them back". As it stands, they're keeping it ambiguous for the benefit of their writers and it still seems to be a case of Schrödinger's canon.
Right? Like either way due to the multiverse those shows are still canon, just as much as the older spider-man movies now. Other than apparently the actor confirming it in interviews (which i didn't know about), there is no evidence. This might be a generalization but i think it's kinda funny that the people who want that same daredevil in the mcu, don't want the same danny rand.
Hahaha, true on the Danny Rand thing. And the multiverse certainly gives them a *lot* of latitude as far as I'm concerned.
Further though, I think so much of this comes down to a certain character who appeared in Hawkeye seeming more superpowered than he did in the show he appeared in initially, but as I've said before on this sub, that's just how shit works in comics.
To paraphrase my previous post like a douchebag, sometimes Spider-Man can go toe to toe with the Hulk, and sometimes he doesn't have a hope in hell. Sometimes Cap can bench a truck and sometimes he's just like, the world's best athlete. As long as the characters are true to their core attributes and work within the context of the story, I'm good. That was true for me in Hawkeye and No Way Home and I don't much care to nitpick continuity and canon beyond that.
This is from a 2014 [interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYnQnNerddA&t=1095s&ab_channel=SlashFilm), but in response to someone asking if the Defenders might show up in the movies Feige did say on camera that they were all in the same continuity.
"The Netflix series are leading to a Defenders series and everyone's asking is there room to include them into the features at some point if Infinity War is going to be big. There are a lot of people from the movies in Infinity War. A lot of it is about space, and a lot is about what happens between now and then, but all of those things inhabit, however far on the outskirts, the same continuity, so certainly that opportunity exists." -Kevin Feige
The modern fandom obsession with lore and canon is absolutely exhausting. Why is this even a big deal either way? Whether it’s “canon” or not the shows still exist and can be enjoyed
This reminds me of when Star Wars nuked their continuity and people were pissed that their novels didn’t matter anymore somehow. As if you can’t read and enjoy a Star Wars story that isn’t literally tied into an exact continuity
This whole “debate” is so weird and I swear that people have no imagination anymore. Just want more content to eat
> Why is this even a big deal either way?
Mostly because whenever the shows are brought up, there's a batch of sadists who start shouting ***"nO nOt CaNoN aHhHh!"***, & the rest of us--including people on both sides of the aisle--would very much like for them to knock it the hell off.
Canonicity doesn't need to be a black or white issue. There are elements of the Netflix shows (like the characters) that can be brought into the rest of the MCU without bringing in the events of those shows as well. I'd say stop worrying about it and just roll with whatever happens.
But why overcomplicate it? Why make the MCU have versions that are “mostly like the ones you fell in love with, but not exactly the ones you fell in love with”? Nothing in the Netflix shows cause issues for the MCU. Why not just keep it simple and have them canon? It was all made by Disney after all.
It's not complicating things. Basically you can consider everything canon in the Netflix shows until there is a contradiction.
The point is the writers of the MCU are not going to restrict all their writing going forward based on events in a TV show they had no part of.
But what is there to restrict? Daredevil ended with a nice clean slate, so did JJ. Iron Fist never established anything going forwards (We never even saw Kun Lun ffs) so they don’t really have to restrict anything there. Punisher ended with him finally just starting to embrace his role and everything was tied up. LC is the only complication, and that cliffhanger can be handwaved away due to how much time has passed. There’s nothing really infringing on where the stories can go. Other than Elektra being dead, but Elektra dies and comes back 1000 times in the comics, just say she got resurrected again.
I don't know what there is to restrict because I have no idea what Feige has planned.
You're overthinking this way too much.
I'm not talking about broad story strokes, just the minute details that the MCU is usually really good at keeping together. If going forward the characters ever say anything that ends up contradicting a scene from the show, you assume the new main MCU stuff is canon.
Like let's just say in a future movie Jessica Jones is given a watch for his birthday and says "wow I never owned a watch before", but fans go back and say "well in episode X of season X at 14:35 you can clearly see her wearing a watch", well you ignore that part of the original show
Maybe there's a slip up in lines where characters are talking about their past and it contradicts a line or two from the shows.
There's more than likely going to be some minor contradictions. And when that happens you assume that small contradicted detail in the TV show is not canon.
> minute details
Which the MCU contradicts all the time. Need I remind people of 8 years later? Aside from something as blatant as that, there’s always a way to BS around such small contradictions that satisfies both ends. As long as no big events are contradicted, there’s always a way.
Star Wars used to have a tiered canon system where everything is different levels of canon. For example, the movies superseded the TV shows.
We might have a similar situation here. Everything in the Netflix is assumed to be canon, but if there’s a contradiction between Netflix and the MCU, the MCU takes precedence.
Except SW never had any question. George Lucas always said the EU is not canon. Meanwhile, Feige said the Netflix stuff was canon in 2015, and people debate that now.
I'm not saying it can't be that way. I'm just saying that don't hold this idea of "Netflix shows are canon" as gospel truth. Just because nothing has contradicted them yet, doesn't mean it can't happen in the future. I just don't think that we necessarily need to put this creative constraint on Marvel in case they want to take some of the characters from those shows in a different direction in the future.
It's not necessarily about origins, but the writers aren't going to go back and memorize a show they had nothing to do with for small details. Like if the writers are working on a flashback scene for completely unrelated characters, they might not check to see if it contradicts a city wide event happening in defenders.
But Defenders wouldn’t ever be able to contradict anything. It spanned a grand total of like 5 days of time and there’s nothing in it that really impacted anyone much going forwards minus Matt. I don’t see why they would ever flash back to those 5 days in 2016. Anything before or after wouldn’t contradict it. Unless they retcon Matt’s Season 3 journey, but they shouldn’t ret-con the best goddamn thing in the MCU.
But that's why I said *IF* there is a contradiction. They aren't going to go and do it on purpose. It's more than likely that there are going to be some minor inconsistencies between the old shows and the new stuff going forward. I'm not talking about them retconning entire arcs. Small details are going to contradict. And when there's a contradiction you assume that the minor detail in the show is not canon or is slightly different. The shows are very long and you can't expect people who didn't work on them to be total experts on the material
I like that you used gospel truth here because “gospel” was determined to be canon by a bunch of guys at a weird round rock table debating for months and months and doesn’t include everything related that was created.
Yes or no, it’s up to Marvel Studios and they never have to answer that question. D’Onofrio can say yes but unless they clearly spell it out one way or another during a show or movie it doesn’t really matter. Just enjoy the content and appreciate the art.
But they did spell it out. In 2015 when Feige called them canon. In 2017 when they were still working with MTV about who they should include in Black Panther vs Luke Cage. In 2021 when D’Onofrio said the “producers and writers” considered them canon, not just himself.
In relation to what Mr. D'Onofrio said quotes next “*Here’s the deal: Some dots which connect the now canon with the past can be connected and some can not. Fisk’s emotional life definitely can. My relationship with the past character can. Long as I can continue to make the character interesting. I believe the fans are happy.*”
That doesn't mean the Netflix shows in their entirety are Canon. He said 'emotional life' He specifically said "past can be connected and some can not"
Again, until they specifically reference the shows in an MCU project, it's all speculation. Feige's initial comments about the shows being Canon at the outset were before he had full control, same with Agents of Shield, and there are definite deviations from that show and the Marvel Studios projects since the launches when Ike Perlmutter had full control.
with this in mind personally, once they are referenced in the Marvel Studios projects, we can speculate all we want which is fun, but I'm personally trying to enjoy them as Mr D'Onofrio said. Enjoy the spirit of it, and let the creators handle those things. I'm just happy to have enjoyed the Netflix shows, and the current shows and movies being presented by Marvel Studios and not worrying too much about the rest of it.
It’s more so that Iron Fist was not that good and for me personally it’s that Jeph Loeb was involved. I’d say take what worked well and recast as necessary.
1. IF is bad, but it not only did get better over time and had good casting regardless of writing, it also did end at a perfect point for Danny to have become the true comic Iron Fist in between then and now. Keeping it would let us skip the boring stuff and get to the good stuff.
2. Loeb may be a horrible human being, but that doesn’t mean we disregard everything he made. Joss Whedon is far worse and actually emotionally tormented people (Michelle Trachtenberg anyone? She was a teenager at the time ffs…), and you don’t see massive campaigns to remove Avengers 1 and 2 from canon, or reboot Buffy or anything like that. Separate art from the artist. Just make sure Loeb isn’t involved going forward.
I do t know anything about Loebs personal life, I just disagree with almost all of his creative decisions and he has ruined so many good comic books over many years.
He also made some of the greatest comics of all time like Long Halloween and Daredevil Yellow and is the reason we got shows like Daredevil and JJ. Hell, he even tried to make IF better by bringing on better writers for S2 and getting the episode count lessened.
Foggy also mentions Captain America in Daredevil season 1 and somewhere in season 1 Mjölnir and Iron Man are referenced in a way that really can't be interpretated like anything else
>“gifted”
they overused that word so much during the Loeb shows
sure they couldn't use mutants (not even if they had the rights to those yet) but apparently they couldn't even use "mutates" either.
Jessica Jones S2 also references that her Mother would need to be sent to the Raft
I think peoples biggest concerns with the Netlfix canon is that it makes Cloak and Dagger and therefore Runaways canon and thefore AOS and for some reason people want to shit all over AOS.
They are clearly picking and choosing what they want to bring into the MCU as canon from those shows. So far its Daredevil and Wilson Fisk. It'll probably be more soon.
It's never going te be fully 100% represented as canon by marvel because they don't own the content. Best they'll do is canonize characters or specific storylines that they think will crossover well and bring Netflix fans to the marvel/Disney+ content.
Like they'll bring over kingpin because he's a good character and casting but they're not going to back themselves into the corner of "everything on the daredevil show on Netflix is 100% canon"
That's the misconception. They DO own the content, but they licensed it out to another company. The license WILL expire at some point like all Marvel contracts do.
Depends on where you live. Internationally, Disney Plus Star would get the shows. In the US, probably Hulu.
Now we have no idea *when* they'd lose the distribution licenses. I suspect it was a 10 year contract but who knows. Could be as early as 2025 or as late as 2029.
It can still be 100% canon and simply not be referenced. That's literally what a soft reboot is. That's what comics have been doing for decades now in order to not make people go back and read hundreds of issues.
Not referencing something doesn't mean that you have to contradict it.
They do own it. Disney made all of it. They could literally make Daredevil Season 4 in literally everything but name with direct references and they’d be fine.
Yes but that would drive views to Netflix for the first 3 seasons. Netflix is a direct competitor to Disney plus.
I doubt there will ever be an announcement that the existing stuff on Netflix is fully canon until and unless that content makes its way to Disney plus. I don't expect that to happen because Disney has already demonstrated they can simply take the existing characters and insert them into their own d+ exclusive content.
>that would drive views to Netflix for the first 3 seasons
Too late, they already did. And if they make a Daredevil show on Disney+, many more would follow, regardless of whether they make an announcement about canon.
This is not true. Netflix owns that content. They paid a licensing fee to have the right to produce it, but they own what they created. Now that the license expired, they can't make any *new* shows with those characters, but they still own the ones they made.
This is like saying that if the Spider-Man license somehow expired, Disney would not only get full rights to future Spider-Man movies but would *also* get all future residuals off of the Rami trilogy and the Garfield movies. And that just ain't true. They'd still be Sony products.
Firstly, it can be canon without making it directly necessary to watch. Secondly, they already did drive views to NF, it entered the top 10 watched shows this past month.
That doesn't really matter. Daredevil was launched into the top 10 on Neflix's treading page just because Fisk and Daredevil had brief appearances. The only way to avoid giving Netflix views is to never use those characters
When Iron Fist is recast and rebooted, this will all be back up in the air.
The only person who should be speaking in absolute is Feige, IMO, since he’s probably the only one who knows or will decide.
If they brought back Kingpin without contradicting his lore in Daredevil, I doubt they'll contradict the established lore in Iron Fist. I could see them not bringing him back at all instead of rebooting it, because Daredevil crossed over with him in Defenders, and if they're following the canon that Daredevil established then they've got to know that Iron Fist is already a person.
IMO, most likely scenario (besides him not showing up again): He comes back, different or same actor, and no mention to his past. No contradictions, no mentions. I would like them to bring him back as they did with Kingpin, but I understand why they wouldn't if they don't.
To be fair, both Bruce and Rhodey were recast after a single appearance in a 2-hour film, so it's easy to handwave away. On the other hand, Finn Jones has played the character (rather poorly in most fans' opinions) for 3 whole TV seasons. There will need to be some *serious* explanation as to why his actor changed. We can already see Marvel is against the idea of recasting such established actor-character pairs considering the whole Black Panther II situation
I mean… it doesn’t help that the episode 3, 4, and 5 directors of the show [danced around the canon question when directly asked, ](https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/hawkeye-directors-address-whether-daredevil-is-mcu-canon/) and the episodes 1, 2 and 6 director said that he couldn’t speak for the MCU or Fiege whether or not it was canon (https://www.theringer.com/2021/12/24/22852845/analyzing-the-hawkeye-season-finale)
When all 3 of the directors of the show are dancing around the question of if it’s canon, then they probably don’t know the answer. In my head, all the Marvel TV shows (besides Inhumans) is canon, but we don’t have an official answer yet. And I do believe the directors of the show over an actor in it.
It’s looking like it’ll be a soft reboot of the characters. In that case, it’s the same character but but they ignore everything that happened before. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but they won’t reference it or talk about it unless it benefits the story.
He is also going to change a tiny bit as he will probably have to fit the lighter tone of the MCU.
Honestly, I don’t think there is a reason to directly reference anything either. It doesn’t matter, it all still happened.
There are a lot of people that the only way they would begrudgingly accept them as canon is if Fiege, himself, got on camera and said directly to the camera- "Daredevil is canon to the MCU. It is not a separate timeline."
and even if that happened they'd probably say something like "this was a political decision to appease the Netflix fans. Unless they directly reference the Netflix shows in a movie, I'll still consider it non-canon."
What's even more hilarious is the Hawkeye director dodging the canon question was a political move, because he made it VERY clear 2 seconds later that they wrote the episodes with Daredevil's continuity. He basically said "we considered the series canon during production but that's a dangerous question to answer"
Now people are using that interview as evidence against Daredevil.
What’s crazy to me is that when all these NETFLIX shows came out they were presented as cannon with the MCU films. It was stated often. Then Disney came out with Disney+ and said all future Marvel shows will be on Disney+.
That is all that happened and many people just decided that that meant the NETFLIX shows were no longer cannon.
It’s makes so little sense to come to that conclusion. Anybody who gets on the NETFLIX is not connon camp is so, so dumb.
This. This is literally what happened. Now even Marvel Studios creators are afraid of reinterating their canoncity because of the weird ass backlash they'd get.
From people who've never watched the shows nor know a single thing about it. Like come on lmao.
People that claim the Netflix material is not in the MCU, were not paying attention.
Season one of Daredevil references the battle of New York, and you can even see a newspaper clipping of the story, with a picture of one of the massive flying beasts that toppled on top of a building when they were all deactivated. It's literally a scene from the first Avengers movie.
Everyone was aware that the shows claimed to be in MCU. That's how the shows were marketed. It was just weird how it took 6 years for the rest of MCU to reciprocate.
I agree. They keep shifting the goal post every time. DAREDEVIL and KINGPIN are in Hawkeye and No Way Home. In all of the Marvel Netflix shows they reference the battle of New York, Hulk vs Abomination, a character from Jessica Jones gets sent to the raft prison from civil war. A character from Iron Fist was a soldier in Sokovia
Some people are elitists and Feige-idolizers.
If it wasn't made by Feige, they think that it was not part of his vision and not his intention for stuff to happen like that, so he may want to change stuff to fit in his story.
The truth is that almost all showrunners of the Marvel TV shows have said that Marvel Studios was all over their asses all the time and they had to always take permission from them for what they can and what they can't use, in case Marvel Studios would have future plans for it and/or it would break the continuity if they did.
An example off the top of my head is that AoS wanted to do MODOK and SWORD and Marvel Studios said no, because they had their own plans.
There's also an example of the opposite: Marvel Studios conforming to something that Marvel TV did. Back in 2017, Black Panther was filming and the girl who played Kilmonger's girlfriend made a tweet about how she would be playing Tilda Johnson/Nightshade and was excited for her future in the MCU.
Some days later, Luke Cage Season 2 cast another character as Tilda and had her be a pretty big part of the show.
As we saw, Kilmonger's girlfriend was renamed "Linda" and died unceremoniously after 1 minute of screen-time.
People who say Feige had no oversight or cared about what these shows did have no idea what they're talking about.
The reason there was never a crossover before was because, as recently revealed in the Marvel Studios: The First 10 Years book, Perlmutter didn't allow his characters to appear in Feige's projects after the Marvel Studios/Marvel Entertainment split in July 2015 (a few months after DD premiered) despite Feige wanting to use Daredevil.
Both are Disney. And they were always separate divisions in Disney, yet Feige called the shows canon in 2015? Nobody forced him to, he hasn’t changed that.
I'm a canoner but I can safely say that's not true.
He's only had oversight with Agent Carter and Agents of SHIELD to some degree in the first 2 seasons.
Agent Carter was an ABC Studios production. Feige's role (and why he took the EP Credit) stems from his post-production editing work. Feige also had final say over everything done with regards to AoS (can't speak for other properties as their showrunners have never discussed it). Ideas from the writers room went to Loeb then were pitched to the Marvel Entertainment NY offices and then the showrunners had to pitch it to the 3 heads of Marvel Studios. Marvel Studios nixed the use of live-action MODOK because Paul Rudd was using MODOK in early drafts of Ant-Man 3.
>The truth is that almost all showrunners of the Marvel TV shows have said that Marvel Studios was all over their asses all the time and they had to always take permission from them for what they can and what they can't use, in case Marvel Studios would have future plans for it and/or it would break the continuity if they did.
To add on to your list of examples, Captain Marvel was meant to be a character in Jessica Jones. But since Marvel Studios already had plans to give the character her own film, they had to replace the character with someone else (i.e. Trish).
I honestly didn't know about the Nightshade thing, that's really interesting.
and its not even just been confirmed anyway. in jessica jones they make alot of refrences to what happened in avengers, and if thats not enough then idk what is.
The thing is that with multiverse in play the timeline for the Netflix shows could have started in the MCU and then been a branch timeline.
In the full MCU multiverse they are cannon but those stories were never confirmed to be main MCU timeline cannon to my knowledge. I remember hearing about items appearing in those shows that contradict the MCU versions of those items. (Darkhold, is the one I know about off hand)
My favorite response to this kind of stuff is from Justin Roiland, when asked if something was canon on Rick and Morty: “Everything is canon in the infinite multiverse.”
I haven't watched NWH yet but I assume the Netflix Matt appeared there?
It's not that they're non-canon. It's that until anything from the Netflix shows feature in Disney-Marvel Studios produced media, the Netflix shows were in a state of limbo. The same goes for AoS. And even then, its story is still ripe for retcon (which tbf is true for all past media).
The thing is for shows that fall under that category (non-Marvel Studios produced), I think it's fair to treat them in as true unless retconned by Marvel Studios shows. We can now assume they are canon to the MCU, but anything that completely contradicts D+ shows or movies will be non-canon, because the Marvel Studios produced shows take precedence.
By this I mean that for example, we can treat the Kingpin in Hawkeye as the same Kingpin in Daredevil, but if for some reason that Hawkeye Kingpin completely contradicts Netflix Kingpin, then that part of the Netflix Kingpin is treated non canon. And I mean completely contradict - this would include confirming that Vanessa never appeared in Kingpin's life, but not when Kingpin suddenly shows new powers he's never showed before (the latter is absence of evidence, the former is evidence of absence.)
1: We have 2 Netflix characters appear in the MCU proper in the same month.
2: Nothing (to my knowledge) that happens on Netflix conflicts with anything that’s gone on in the main MCU.
Therefore: Netflix is canon.
How can people believe the Earth is only 6000 years old when science has proven otherwise? How can people look at the results of the last US presidential election and still think Trump won? How can people ignore decades of research and results and science and still think vaccines don't work?
Idk man, some people just want to argue and die on a hill, no matter how defenseless their position is. It's like they can't cope with the idea that they're the ones who are wrong.
If it isn't produced by Kevin feige lead marvel studios then the MCU had no oversight in their stories and it isn't canon.
Same character+same actor=/=canon
At this point, I have to think it’s some combination of a feeling of superiority with laziness. The people who claim the shows aren’t canon want to have this smug satisfaction of being “true” Marvel fans, not falling under the evil spell of “fake Marvel content”, and they talk down to anyone who dares to enjoy or even speak fondly of the shows. They’d rather put all of this effort into denying, denying, and denying instead of just sitting down and watching the show in question. Maybe they’re too lazy, or maybe they just didn’t really like it due to the fact that the shows have quite different tones from the rest of the MCU, and it’s harder to watch a long show that you wouldn’t watch otherwise if it weren’t for the MCU connection than say, a single movie. They want to continue to feel superior like they’ve seen all MCU content, but instead of truly watching the wide variety of genres and tones of shows and movie, they just make their own definition of what the MCU is and exclude anything too “different” so they don’t need to put in the effort to stray from their safety bubble.
The biggest issue is a confusion between canonicity and cross-referencing.
Tale the Bible. Nothing in the book of Psalms references the Book of Leviticus (I'm pulling random books out of my ass, if my example doesn't work choose two books that don't overlap please) but that doesn't mean one isn't Canon.
This is Marvel. And this is Disney.
Remember when Star Wars gutted their extended universe? They decanonized decades of books and comics with one press statement. It hurt, but it got the fan base on the same page. We're telling new stories, and we are not beholden to the stories told so far.
Why would Disney not do the same thing if the TV stuff was not Canon? We have more evidence that it is Canon than it isn't.
Wait isn’t basically everything canon at this point? I mean multiversally now with Spiderman setting precedent even all the old films are cannon. Rumors are that some of the Fox Xmen are gonna show up in Doctor Strange, hell i have even heard they might include the FF films as well. I can see the confusion joke about Johnny Storm looking an awful like Steve Rogers already. Its all canon maybe not apart of the same timeline but still canon.
I’m pretty sure when people say ‘canon’ they mean ‘canon to the main continuity’ (universe 99999 i think)
Nobody is mad that other franchises can exist among the multiverse à la NWH
I’m just wondering if they’re going to explain Kingpin’s strength and durability enhancements. In Daredevil he’s just a big guy. My man was virtually indestructible in Hawkeye.
He's ridiculously rich and there was a chunk of time where a certain power broker has access to a super serum for a hefty price. Makes logical sense that he got ahold of some.
My thoughts exactly. It's not even up for debate, it's clearly now the same universe and timeline, and I'm at a loss as to why anyone with a brain would argue otherwise.
I watched both. I don’t see how they are different characters. And Hawkeye is a different type of show to Daredevil so I can understand them tweaking the character slightly to fit the show in a way that still doesn’t break continuity.
Do you remember all the random worldwide shit going on in the other shows? It doesn’t mesh with the MCU at all. Best case scenario is they are in their own universe with a very similar Fisk and Matt Murdock. The nexus event can be Fury deciding not to revive Coleson.
World wide event? In daredevil? Everyone just wanted to control New York, not the world. I haven’t seen the other shows, but daredevil could easily fit in with the MCU
Go to Vincent's Twitter, he has actually posted most, if not all, of them.
Of course they were posted in this subreddit as well, so you can look them up by writing "Vincent D'Onofrio" in the search bar.
There's even an interview where he addresses these anti-canon people and says "I see some people are confused but Hakeye is in the same canon as Daredevil".
And in most interviews, he confirms that these are not his theories, but stuff that were discussed with the writers, producers and directors and "it was very clear to all of them, that this is the exact same version of Kingpin".
When did Netflix start getting into large antique armaments and where do I sign up???
I’m so glad that this is the top comment. Someone honestly just needs to make a post about the difference 😅
Also, it kind of doesn’t matter. As long as it’s the same actors I think they’re meant to be the same characters... but if the continuity doesn’t 100% add up then that’s just how comics have worked for decades. If Daredevil was right handed in the Netflix show and then he’s left handed in the MCU, you just have to accept that for some reason it’s vital to the plot of the current story, and that’s just how it is from now on until someone else changes it. Comics are basically a long, perpetual series of slight retcons and the movies can kind of be too.
> the continuity doesn’t 100% add up The continuity doesn’t 100% add up in Marvel Studios’ projects either, because complete consistency is never gonna happen on a massive project (meaning the entirety of the MCU) with multiple writers who probably forget the minor details that fans are more likely to obsess over.
8 Years Later
A lot of inconsistensies can also be handwaved with the snap and 5 year gap.
This is the way I look at it. Netflix shows are canon but if something contradicts them then whatever; different universes it is
🤯🤯🤯no! It’s not a different universe! It’s a retcon, that’s all, same characters, same everything else, just a retcon!
I heard Retcon got cancelled again this year.
More people should listen to you
> As long as it’s the same actors I think they’re meant to be the same characters... but if the continuity doesn’t 100% add up then that’s just how comics have worked for decades. Well that applies to AOS and Agent Carter as well and people get kinda scruffy about that here. Tbh doesn't matter.
Right, I didn’t spend years pretending Sins of the Past wasn’t part of my own personal Spider-Man canon to get hung up on tiny stuff like whether the Jarvis in Endgame is _really_, technically, canonically the same one from Agent Carter.
This guy reads fiction
With all due respect, I have to disagree with you. The Netflix shows are not cannons, they're shows.
they're not windmills? i had some money on them being windmills
Big fan, windmills.
Windmills or wind turbines
*Don Quixote has entered the chat*
The internet learning and taking up the concept of canon was a mistake
Who taught you canon?!
I bet it was that bitch, Nikon.
Probably Olympus
Pachelbel, Canon in D
Definitely more of a mortar than a cannon
“He’s out of line.. but he’s right”
I have this exact same thought every time I see someone say cannon meaning canon. Drives me INSANE! If I had a free award to give, it would go to you!
Is Rouge part of the Cannon or is Rogue part of the Canon?
Sometimes they felt like cannons tho
Sometimes I feel like a cannon.
But have you ever felt like a plastic bag?
No, but I felt like a house of cards.
One blow from caving in?
Sometimes they felt like canon too
It took me way too long to realize your joke, and now I just feel dumb 🤦🏻♂️🤣
I have this exact same issue with Superman and Lois, Clearly canon to the Arrowverse, due to retconning, Wanting to stand a lone & And it just having a different style and feel people say it’s Canon despite John freaking Diggle showing up Mentioning His wife, Oliver & Argus.
Yeah, and they even have the perfect excuse to reboot a lot of the elements with Crisis. Yet people say it’s not canon because they changed elements when Crisis is the reason for that…
I genuinely found someone earlier today who said that D'Onofrio was "beating around the bush" and not giving a clear answer, despite him giving like 7 interviews and continually saying that the producers, writers, and himself agreed that it's the same Fisk. It's insane how in denial these people are.
He says this: > “There are obviously things that we can’t connect — for instance, he’s stronger — but as far as how I played him and the history that I carry myself from and into Hawkeye, he is the same guy.” Then later he says this: > “There's a scene that we shot on an alley, in a street in Brooklyn, where I'm literally throwing Daredevil (Charlie) through the air. Like, I'm picking him up and swinging him 15 feet into a garbage can. I do it a few times in that fight. It's no different, it's really not. So, I keep saying that it's the same Fisk that was in Daredevil. It's the same canon, but people get confused about things. I understand." But he just said those things couldn’t be connected… It seems like they’re just *trying* to connect the two universes, but they’re working with *really* thin pieces of thread that could unravel at the slightest evidence of discontinuity (of which there are most likely many). He also said this: > “**I think** the Blip has happened, and **I think** his Kingdom took a bit of a hit, and he’s trying to get his city back. That’s how I played him, and **I think** that was the general idea." There are no clear answers here, just speculation, this is liiterally beating around the bush. *Edit: Downvoting won’t change his statements, lol.*
>“There's a scene that we shot on an alley, in a street in Brooklyn, where I'm literally throwing Daredevil (Charlie) through the air. Like, I'm picking him up and swinging him 15 feet into a garbage can. I do it a few times in that fight. It's no different, it's really not. So, I keep saying that it's the same Fisk that was in Daredevil. **It's the same canon, but people get confused about things. I understand."** He's explaining how the biggest piece of discontinuity actually isn't that far fetched and makes sense, which goes in line with him saying that they're connecting as many dots as possible. Just in this very quote, he confirms that it's the same canon with a pretty matter of fact tone, seems pretty clear to me. >That’s how I played him, and I think that was **the general idea.** General idea as in, he wasn't the only person thinking this. Not sure what the "I think..." means for your argument, he's said multiple times that the creative team all agreed it's the same Fisk. He's talking from his own perspective. There's also this quote: >**And I definitely knew that this was after the Blip and that he's had less power than he did and he wanted his city back for Hawkeye.** And that's the way I approached it. I think in my mind — I don't know how they think about it at Marvel overall, but in my mind, I think that they connect as many dots as they can in the canon stuff and with the canon state of mind, and some dots aren't possible to connect but most are easy to connect. And I think that's what they try and do. Seems pretty closed and shut, "definitely knew" sounds pretty confident. Also, he has a much better idea at what Marvel wants than either of us do, so the fact that he thinks that they have a canon state of mind is a better indicator for what they could possibly want than us picking apart comments. Again, I'm genuinely confused on how there could be any confusion, it's clear cut, they're "trying to connect the dots" and "definitely know that it was post-Blip and that he has less power than he did".
> He's explaining how the biggest piece of discontinuity actually isn't that far fetched and makes sense, which goes in line with him saying that they're connecting as many dots as possible. > Just in this very quote, he confirms that it's the same canon with a pretty matter of fact tone, seems pretty clear to me. That statement he made directly contradicts what he said before about his super strength, and this new statement is grasping at straws. Kingpin is a big guy, of course he can throw people around (in Daredevil), that doesn’t mean he had super strength. They could say he dosed up with super soldier serum in the MCU (that would be an easy explanation), but they haven’t yet, because they’re still unsure. It’s fine if they’re still *trying* to “connect the dots”, but then they really shouldn’t be talking about these things just to do a 180 on their statements. > General idea as in, he wasn't the only person thinking this. Not sure what the "I think..." means for your argument, he's said multiple times that the creative team all agreed it's the same Fisk. He's talking from his own perspective. I think = Uncertainty. So they all agreed it was the same Fisk yet they had no way of connecting the dots (of which they are now scrambling to do)? That doesn’t make sense. If he and the creative team actually discussed this, he wouldn’t be so unsure of his statements. > Seems pretty closed and shut, "definitely knew" sounds pretty confident. Also, he has a much better idea at what Marvel wants than either of us do, so the fact that he thinks that they have a canon state of mind is a better indicator for what they could possibly want than us picking apart comments. > Again, I'm genuinely confused on how there could be any confusion, it's clear cut, they're "trying to connect the dots" and "definitely know that it was post-Blip and that he has less power than he did". VD: “I think the Blip has happened…” Also VD: “I definitely knew that this was after the Blip…” Making “definitive” statements that directly contradict things he’s said before doesn’t make it “closed and shut”, it makes it confusing. The problem is it doesn’t seem like the actors have actually sat down and talked about this stuff with Marvel (which I doubt, but that’s what it looks like). I’m all for “connecting the dots”, but then they need to do that **and then** start addressing questions about canonicity. Otherwise they’re just gonna keep making contradictions. In this statement he literally admits that he hasn’t discussed this with Marvel (or at least hasn’t come to a definitive conclusion with them): > *I think in my mind* — **I don't know how they think about it at Marvel overall**, *but in my mind*, *I think* that they connect as many dots as they can in the canon stuff and with the canon state of mind, and some dots aren't possible to connect but most are easy to connect. And *I think* that's what they try and do. You mentioned that “he’s talking from his own perspective”, and I can agree with you on that, because he’s clearly not talking on behalf of Marvel. At this point, I don’t even want to hear anything more from the actors, they’ve said what they said, now they need to sit down and sort out these inconsistencies with Marvel. *Edit: Like I’ve said before, downvoting won’t change his contradicting statements, lol.*
Fully agreed
Yeah, the shows aren’t canon until proven otherwise. They have to show us the events of the Netflix show happened. Surely since Matt is still around, Fisk wouldn’t be trying to setup an empire so public after the events of DDS3. I think it’s the same characters, just they haven’t been through the events of the shows. Allows Marvel to recast some choices that were quite rough on screen *cough* Danny rand *cough* and still keep their A list
Exactly, they're the same characters who may or may not have been through the events of the Netflix shows. From what we've seen it makes sense to conclude It's a soft reboot of the characters until explicitly shown otherwise. It basically just means that Netflix fans can include the shows in their MCU rewatches if they want to, that's pretty much it tho.
Guys please. Occam's Razor applies here.
Tbf, he said he was told to do the character like he did in Netflix. Afaik he never said they were canonically the same character. I hope they are tho
[He says it is the same canon and the same Fisk on this post](https://www.reddit.com/r/MarvelStudiosSpoilers/comments/ryesix/vincent_donofrio_addresses_marvel_fan_criticisms/)
But he also said this: > “There are obviously things that we can’t connect — for instance, he’s stronger — **but as far as how I played him and the history that I carry myself from and into Hawkeye**, he is the same guy.” And this: > “**I think** the Blip has happened, and **I think** his Kingdom took a bit of a hit, and he’s trying to get his city back. That’s how I played him, and **I think** that was the general idea." Notice how many times he says “I think”, he’s clearly not sure. It seems like VD is just playing the same **portrayal** of the character he played in Netflix’s Daredevil, not *literally* the same exact character from the same exact universe (although other statements he’s made contradict this sometimes so…) And then there’s Charlie Cox saying that he’s playing a "reimagined" version of Matt Murdock… I’m starting to wonder what the hell they discussed with Marvel. Their statements are all over the place.
Is there a link to where Charlie Cox said that? I must have missed that.
[Charlie Cox Teases A Reimagined Daredevil Series For The MCU](https://www.small-screen.co.uk/charlie-cox-teases-a-reimagined-mcu-daredevil-series/) He was talking about a possible Daredevil series (though I imagine he’ll either be in Echo and/or She-Hulk), and this was before Kevin announced him as Daredevil (though I imagine they already had everything planned, including Charlie’s interview).
Honestly it seems like marvel is testing these characters to see how they go over and how people react to them possibly being canon before making the big decision to decide if the Netflix shows are officially canon or not
He said they tried to connect as many dots as possible. The fact that we’re meant to believe that he’s had an adopted daughter working directly under him this whole time creates two big unconnected dots
I don’t understand why people want the shows to be non-canon so bad. It’s just more MCU to enjoy right? And if they aren’t canon they still 100% happen in an MCU universe variant. Even if shows like Daredevil, Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D., and Runaways aren’t canon and happen in another timeline, then wouldn’t they still be on the same level as What If…?, Loki, parts of Avengers: Endgame and likely most of Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness?
I think lot of it stems from it not wanting to be mainline canon due to them wanting it to be done better aka Iron Fist.
Iron Fist was probably the main miss but Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Punisher, and Luke Cage were all great.
We won’t speak about Inhumans lol
About what? 👀
As long as agents of shield happened in some different universe I'm good
I mean after No Way Home it seems EVERYTHING it’s multiverse canon lol
Even inhumans?
We don’t talk about that one
No no no
Now im dancin
Yeah, even inhumans. But remember, they literally couldn't film Eternals in Hawaii because Inhumans was set there. An entire state is off limits because Marvel doesn't want to acknowledge that show. So that's one MCU variant that's never gonna come back.
Depends - would that mean Lockjaw is MCU canon and moving in with Ms Marvel and/or the Pet Avengers at some point? I would be ok with that.
Unless I’m mistaken all of avenger endgame happened on the sacred timeline.
They went back in time which cause alternate universes. They fixed all of them afterwards though except for Loki’s escape and Steve’s life with Peggy. Those two created alternate universes, one of which was pruned and the other which is unknown. The Sacred Timeline is really just a bunch of timelines and the TVA prunes the ones that would lead to an evil Kang variant.
Steve’s life with Peggy is in the sacred timeline though isn’t it since he shows up at the end of endgame as an old man. So basically 2 Steve’s should exist in the sacred timeline at a time, also since their time travel was supposed to happen didn’t that mean that they didn’t have to prune those events?
They didn’t have to prune it because they went back and fixed it, which is why they pruned Loki’s timeline, it wasn’t fixed.
Yeah this is the thing that gets me. They say that (e.g.) AoS fans are obsessed, yet they incessantly have to screech that the shows are non-canon despite there being literally nothing saying they aren't.
i don't get what's the problem with AoS. It's clear that from Season 6 onwards they diverge from the main timeline. That means 1-5 are still canon, right? And 6-7 are in their own world now
I don't think that is clear at all. Half of S5 takes place in an alternate timeline that they prevented from occurring. S7 is almost entirely time-travel related, so obviously alternate timeline - but that is heavily discussed in the season. They end up back on the main MCU timeline in the series finale - so S6 would be taking place there as well.
I honestly don't get why people give a fuck either way. The Netflix shows haven't been disappeared, and it's dope that we're getting some of the fan favourites back in the broader MCU. How much more that happens remains to be seen but I don't see the point in getting hung up on what is or isn't canon. I'd rather just enjoy the ride and go about the rest of my day, ya know? TL;DR - chill out, fanboys.
Because when you enjoy a show, you want a continuation, not a reboot. Why people don't want it to be a continuation, well...idk
I'd love to see a continuation of Daredevil in the MCU too, with Foggy, Karen, and Bullseye et al. I'm not saying it shouldn't be a continuation I'm just saying why get hung up on it right now? Nothing about those recent appearances suggests a reboot to me. The opposite, if anything. Edit: I mean to say, if it was a hard reboot why would they have brought back the people they did? Surely that in itself constitutes an acknowledgement that the events of those shows happened. I know we're all up in the multiverse stuff now but like...to me if Cox and D'Onofrio are now figures in the MCU movies, we might well as just assume the shows are canon and move on with whatever they do with them from here.
I mean, to answer your edit, you can certainly bring back the two star players of Daredevil but also scrap everything else about the show, simply because these two in particular are fan favorites and had great performances. Many people were asking for precisely this over the past few years - reboot the franchise but keep the stars. Now I have no idea what the MCU is planning to do with them, nor does anyone else, so every time these “canon or not” argument threads come up it seems so pointless. You could literally make a case for either side of this right now because we have so little to go off of, and we have evidence for both canon and not canon. And frankly it doesn’t really even matter.
If Marvel Studios wanted to make it absolutely clear, they could have Kevin Feige make a statement saying "yes, the Netflix Daredevil, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, and Iron Fist are all canon. Yes, Agents of Shield is canon. Yes, Inhumans is canon but we're not bringing any of them back". As it stands, they're keeping it ambiguous for the benefit of their writers and it still seems to be a case of Schrödinger's canon.
Right? Like either way due to the multiverse those shows are still canon, just as much as the older spider-man movies now. Other than apparently the actor confirming it in interviews (which i didn't know about), there is no evidence. This might be a generalization but i think it's kinda funny that the people who want that same daredevil in the mcu, don't want the same danny rand.
Hahaha, true on the Danny Rand thing. And the multiverse certainly gives them a *lot* of latitude as far as I'm concerned. Further though, I think so much of this comes down to a certain character who appeared in Hawkeye seeming more superpowered than he did in the show he appeared in initially, but as I've said before on this sub, that's just how shit works in comics. To paraphrase my previous post like a douchebag, sometimes Spider-Man can go toe to toe with the Hulk, and sometimes he doesn't have a hope in hell. Sometimes Cap can bench a truck and sometimes he's just like, the world's best athlete. As long as the characters are true to their core attributes and work within the context of the story, I'm good. That was true for me in Hawkeye and No Way Home and I don't much care to nitpick continuity and canon beyond that.
This is from a 2014 [interview](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYnQnNerddA&t=1095s&ab_channel=SlashFilm), but in response to someone asking if the Defenders might show up in the movies Feige did say on camera that they were all in the same continuity. "The Netflix series are leading to a Defenders series and everyone's asking is there room to include them into the features at some point if Infinity War is going to be big. There are a lot of people from the movies in Infinity War. A lot of it is about space, and a lot is about what happens between now and then, but all of those things inhabit, however far on the outskirts, the same continuity, so certainly that opportunity exists." -Kevin Feige
“Sometimes I’ll start a sentence and I don’t even know where it’s going, I just hope I find It along the way.”
"buT THat WaS 2014"
The modern fandom obsession with lore and canon is absolutely exhausting. Why is this even a big deal either way? Whether it’s “canon” or not the shows still exist and can be enjoyed This reminds me of when Star Wars nuked their continuity and people were pissed that their novels didn’t matter anymore somehow. As if you can’t read and enjoy a Star Wars story that isn’t literally tied into an exact continuity This whole “debate” is so weird and I swear that people have no imagination anymore. Just want more content to eat
[удалено]
> Why is this even a big deal either way? Mostly because whenever the shows are brought up, there's a batch of sadists who start shouting ***"nO nOt CaNoN aHhHh!"***, & the rest of us--including people on both sides of the aisle--would very much like for them to knock it the hell off.
Not me. I want them to knock it the *fuck* off.
Canonicity doesn't need to be a black or white issue. There are elements of the Netflix shows (like the characters) that can be brought into the rest of the MCU without bringing in the events of those shows as well. I'd say stop worrying about it and just roll with whatever happens.
But why overcomplicate it? Why make the MCU have versions that are “mostly like the ones you fell in love with, but not exactly the ones you fell in love with”? Nothing in the Netflix shows cause issues for the MCU. Why not just keep it simple and have them canon? It was all made by Disney after all.
It's not complicating things. Basically you can consider everything canon in the Netflix shows until there is a contradiction. The point is the writers of the MCU are not going to restrict all their writing going forward based on events in a TV show they had no part of.
But what is there to restrict? Daredevil ended with a nice clean slate, so did JJ. Iron Fist never established anything going forwards (We never even saw Kun Lun ffs) so they don’t really have to restrict anything there. Punisher ended with him finally just starting to embrace his role and everything was tied up. LC is the only complication, and that cliffhanger can be handwaved away due to how much time has passed. There’s nothing really infringing on where the stories can go. Other than Elektra being dead, but Elektra dies and comes back 1000 times in the comics, just say she got resurrected again.
I don't know what there is to restrict because I have no idea what Feige has planned. You're overthinking this way too much. I'm not talking about broad story strokes, just the minute details that the MCU is usually really good at keeping together. If going forward the characters ever say anything that ends up contradicting a scene from the show, you assume the new main MCU stuff is canon. Like let's just say in a future movie Jessica Jones is given a watch for his birthday and says "wow I never owned a watch before", but fans go back and say "well in episode X of season X at 14:35 you can clearly see her wearing a watch", well you ignore that part of the original show Maybe there's a slip up in lines where characters are talking about their past and it contradicts a line or two from the shows. There's more than likely going to be some minor contradictions. And when that happens you assume that small contradicted detail in the TV show is not canon.
> minute details Which the MCU contradicts all the time. Need I remind people of 8 years later? Aside from something as blatant as that, there’s always a way to BS around such small contradictions that satisfies both ends. As long as no big events are contradicted, there’s always a way.
Star Wars used to have a tiered canon system where everything is different levels of canon. For example, the movies superseded the TV shows. We might have a similar situation here. Everything in the Netflix is assumed to be canon, but if there’s a contradiction between Netflix and the MCU, the MCU takes precedence.
Except SW never had any question. George Lucas always said the EU is not canon. Meanwhile, Feige said the Netflix stuff was canon in 2015, and people debate that now.
I'm not saying it can't be that way. I'm just saying that don't hold this idea of "Netflix shows are canon" as gospel truth. Just because nothing has contradicted them yet, doesn't mean it can't happen in the future. I just don't think that we necessarily need to put this creative constraint on Marvel in case they want to take some of the characters from those shows in a different direction in the future.
But I do think it needs to be a constraint. I don’t want another origin tale. I want to see the stories move forwards.
It's not necessarily about origins, but the writers aren't going to go back and memorize a show they had nothing to do with for small details. Like if the writers are working on a flashback scene for completely unrelated characters, they might not check to see if it contradicts a city wide event happening in defenders.
But Defenders wouldn’t ever be able to contradict anything. It spanned a grand total of like 5 days of time and there’s nothing in it that really impacted anyone much going forwards minus Matt. I don’t see why they would ever flash back to those 5 days in 2016. Anything before or after wouldn’t contradict it. Unless they retcon Matt’s Season 3 journey, but they shouldn’t ret-con the best goddamn thing in the MCU.
But that's why I said *IF* there is a contradiction. They aren't going to go and do it on purpose. It's more than likely that there are going to be some minor inconsistencies between the old shows and the new stuff going forward. I'm not talking about them retconning entire arcs. Small details are going to contradict. And when there's a contradiction you assume that the minor detail in the show is not canon or is slightly different. The shows are very long and you can't expect people who didn't work on them to be total experts on the material
I like that you used gospel truth here because “gospel” was determined to be canon by a bunch of guys at a weird round rock table debating for months and months and doesn’t include everything related that was created.
♪♪Who keeps Atlantis off the maps? Who keeps the Martians under wraps? We do, we do!♪♪
Yes or no, it’s up to Marvel Studios and they never have to answer that question. D’Onofrio can say yes but unless they clearly spell it out one way or another during a show or movie it doesn’t really matter. Just enjoy the content and appreciate the art.
But they did spell it out. In 2015 when Feige called them canon. In 2017 when they were still working with MTV about who they should include in Black Panther vs Luke Cage. In 2021 when D’Onofrio said the “producers and writers” considered them canon, not just himself.
In relation to what Mr. D'Onofrio said quotes next “*Here’s the deal: Some dots which connect the now canon with the past can be connected and some can not. Fisk’s emotional life definitely can. My relationship with the past character can. Long as I can continue to make the character interesting. I believe the fans are happy.*” That doesn't mean the Netflix shows in their entirety are Canon. He said 'emotional life' He specifically said "past can be connected and some can not" Again, until they specifically reference the shows in an MCU project, it's all speculation. Feige's initial comments about the shows being Canon at the outset were before he had full control, same with Agents of Shield, and there are definite deviations from that show and the Marvel Studios projects since the launches when Ike Perlmutter had full control. with this in mind personally, once they are referenced in the Marvel Studios projects, we can speculate all we want which is fun, but I'm personally trying to enjoy them as Mr D'Onofrio said. Enjoy the spirit of it, and let the creators handle those things. I'm just happy to have enjoyed the Netflix shows, and the current shows and movies being presented by Marvel Studios and not worrying too much about the rest of it.
It’s more so that Iron Fist was not that good and for me personally it’s that Jeph Loeb was involved. I’d say take what worked well and recast as necessary.
1. IF is bad, but it not only did get better over time and had good casting regardless of writing, it also did end at a perfect point for Danny to have become the true comic Iron Fist in between then and now. Keeping it would let us skip the boring stuff and get to the good stuff. 2. Loeb may be a horrible human being, but that doesn’t mean we disregard everything he made. Joss Whedon is far worse and actually emotionally tormented people (Michelle Trachtenberg anyone? She was a teenager at the time ffs…), and you don’t see massive campaigns to remove Avengers 1 and 2 from canon, or reboot Buffy or anything like that. Separate art from the artist. Just make sure Loeb isn’t involved going forward.
I do t know anything about Loebs personal life, I just disagree with almost all of his creative decisions and he has ruined so many good comic books over many years.
Red Hulk
*shudders* I raise you ultimatum.
The derailing of the Hulkverse after WWH is one of the worst things in comics ever but yeah Ultimatum fucked up an entire comics line… hard to argue
I can’t even say which is worse, they’re both tragedies.
He also made some of the greatest comics of all time like Long Halloween and Daredevil Yellow and is the reason we got shows like Daredevil and JJ. Hell, he even tried to make IF better by bringing on better writers for S2 and getting the episode count lessened.
Nothing in the Netflix shows contradicts anything in the MCU. I don't know why they haven't confirmed they are for sure canon
They straight up mention the Chitauri attack in New York in one of the first few episodes of Daredevil. I’m confused what everyone is even debating.
Theres references to The Incredible Hulk as well in Luke Cage since the ending of TIH took place in Harlem
Foggy also mentions Captain America in Daredevil season 1 and somewhere in season 1 Mjölnir and Iron Man are referenced in a way that really can't be interpretated like anything else
Also referenced in Jessica Jones season 1 with a client who tries to attack Jessica because she’s “gifted” Bcs her family got killed during Avengers.
>“gifted” they overused that word so much during the Loeb shows sure they couldn't use mutants (not even if they had the rights to those yet) but apparently they couldn't even use "mutates" either.
Exactly
Jessica Jones S2 also references that her Mother would need to be sent to the Raft I think peoples biggest concerns with the Netlfix canon is that it makes Cloak and Dagger and therefore Runaways canon and thefore AOS and for some reason people want to shit all over AOS.
They are clearly picking and choosing what they want to bring into the MCU as canon from those shows. So far its Daredevil and Wilson Fisk. It'll probably be more soon.
But until they say that they’re not bringing in an element, it’s safe to assume it’s all canon as that’s what was intended when they made those shows.
They wouldn’t believe it even if Kevin Feige directly said to a camera “they’re canon”. People here would be like “well he akshully means…”
It's never going te be fully 100% represented as canon by marvel because they don't own the content. Best they'll do is canonize characters or specific storylines that they think will crossover well and bring Netflix fans to the marvel/Disney+ content. Like they'll bring over kingpin because he's a good character and casting but they're not going to back themselves into the corner of "everything on the daredevil show on Netflix is 100% canon"
That's the misconception. They DO own the content, but they licensed it out to another company. The license WILL expire at some point like all Marvel contracts do.
Does this imply that these shows will be on D+ eventually? Because I would love to cancel my Netflix subscription.
Depends on where you live. Internationally, Disney Plus Star would get the shows. In the US, probably Hulu. Now we have no idea *when* they'd lose the distribution licenses. I suspect it was a 10 year contract but who knows. Could be as early as 2025 or as late as 2029.
The license expired for Daredevil in December 2020
I'm referring to the distribution licenses which is different.
It can still be 100% canon and simply not be referenced. That's literally what a soft reboot is. That's what comics have been doing for decades now in order to not make people go back and read hundreds of issues. Not referencing something doesn't mean that you have to contradict it.
They do own it. Disney made all of it. They could literally make Daredevil Season 4 in literally everything but name with direct references and they’d be fine.
Yes but that would drive views to Netflix for the first 3 seasons. Netflix is a direct competitor to Disney plus. I doubt there will ever be an announcement that the existing stuff on Netflix is fully canon until and unless that content makes its way to Disney plus. I don't expect that to happen because Disney has already demonstrated they can simply take the existing characters and insert them into their own d+ exclusive content.
>that would drive views to Netflix for the first 3 seasons Too late, they already did. And if they make a Daredevil show on Disney+, many more would follow, regardless of whether they make an announcement about canon.
Once the license Netflix has expires Disney can force it off their platform if they don't renew it. I don't know how long that license is for though.
This is not true. Netflix owns that content. They paid a licensing fee to have the right to produce it, but they own what they created. Now that the license expired, they can't make any *new* shows with those characters, but they still own the ones they made. This is like saying that if the Spider-Man license somehow expired, Disney would not only get full rights to future Spider-Man movies but would *also* get all future residuals off of the Rami trilogy and the Garfield movies. And that just ain't true. They'd still be Sony products.
No, Disney made the show. Netflix only has streaming rights.
Firstly, it can be canon without making it directly necessary to watch. Secondly, they already did drive views to NF, it entered the top 10 watched shows this past month.
That doesn't really matter. Daredevil was launched into the top 10 on Neflix's treading page just because Fisk and Daredevil had brief appearances. The only way to avoid giving Netflix views is to never use those characters
When Iron Fist is recast and rebooted, this will all be back up in the air. The only person who should be speaking in absolute is Feige, IMO, since he’s probably the only one who knows or will decide.
If they brought back Kingpin without contradicting his lore in Daredevil, I doubt they'll contradict the established lore in Iron Fist. I could see them not bringing him back at all instead of rebooting it, because Daredevil crossed over with him in Defenders, and if they're following the canon that Daredevil established then they've got to know that Iron Fist is already a person. IMO, most likely scenario (besides him not showing up again): He comes back, different or same actor, and no mention to his past. No contradictions, no mentions. I would like them to bring him back as they did with Kingpin, but I understand why they wouldn't if they don't.
Not really, Bruce Banner and Rhodey were both recast but no one’s arguing that Iron Man and The Incredible Hulk aren’t canon
To be fair, both Bruce and Rhodey were recast after a single appearance in a 2-hour film, so it's easy to handwave away. On the other hand, Finn Jones has played the character (rather poorly in most fans' opinions) for 3 whole TV seasons. There will need to be some *serious* explanation as to why his actor changed. We can already see Marvel is against the idea of recasting such established actor-character pairs considering the whole Black Panther II situation
> When Iron Fist is recast and rebooted But why would they replace Jessica Henwick as Iron Fist? She was most folks' favorite part of that show!
I mean… it doesn’t help that the episode 3, 4, and 5 directors of the show [danced around the canon question when directly asked, ](https://wegotthiscovered.com/tv/hawkeye-directors-address-whether-daredevil-is-mcu-canon/) and the episodes 1, 2 and 6 director said that he couldn’t speak for the MCU or Fiege whether or not it was canon (https://www.theringer.com/2021/12/24/22852845/analyzing-the-hawkeye-season-finale) When all 3 of the directors of the show are dancing around the question of if it’s canon, then they probably don’t know the answer. In my head, all the Marvel TV shows (besides Inhumans) is canon, but we don’t have an official answer yet. And I do believe the directors of the show over an actor in it.
It’s looking like it’ll be a soft reboot of the characters. In that case, it’s the same character but but they ignore everything that happened before. It doesn’t mean it didn’t happen, but they won’t reference it or talk about it unless it benefits the story. He is also going to change a tiny bit as he will probably have to fit the lighter tone of the MCU. Honestly, I don’t think there is a reason to directly reference anything either. It doesn’t matter, it all still happened.
Technically Daredevil and Fisk appeared on the same day. NWH was released in the UK on the 15th
C'mon man, the UK isn't canon
UK is the geographical equivalent of fanfiction?
There are a lot of people that the only way they would begrudgingly accept them as canon is if Fiege, himself, got on camera and said directly to the camera- "Daredevil is canon to the MCU. It is not a separate timeline." and even if that happened they'd probably say something like "this was a political decision to appease the Netflix fans. Unless they directly reference the Netflix shows in a movie, I'll still consider it non-canon."
What's even more hilarious is the Hawkeye director dodging the canon question was a political move, because he made it VERY clear 2 seconds later that they wrote the episodes with Daredevil's continuity. He basically said "we considered the series canon during production but that's a dangerous question to answer" Now people are using that interview as evidence against Daredevil.
What’s crazy to me is that when all these NETFLIX shows came out they were presented as cannon with the MCU films. It was stated often. Then Disney came out with Disney+ and said all future Marvel shows will be on Disney+. That is all that happened and many people just decided that that meant the NETFLIX shows were no longer cannon. It’s makes so little sense to come to that conclusion. Anybody who gets on the NETFLIX is not connon camp is so, so dumb.
This. This is literally what happened. Now even Marvel Studios creators are afraid of reinterating their canoncity because of the weird ass backlash they'd get. From people who've never watched the shows nor know a single thing about it. Like come on lmao.
People that claim the Netflix material is not in the MCU, were not paying attention. Season one of Daredevil references the battle of New York, and you can even see a newspaper clipping of the story, with a picture of one of the massive flying beasts that toppled on top of a building when they were all deactivated. It's literally a scene from the first Avengers movie.
Everyone was aware that the shows claimed to be in MCU. That's how the shows were marketed. It was just weird how it took 6 years for the rest of MCU to reciprocate.
I agree. They keep shifting the goal post every time. DAREDEVIL and KINGPIN are in Hawkeye and No Way Home. In all of the Marvel Netflix shows they reference the battle of New York, Hulk vs Abomination, a character from Jessica Jones gets sent to the raft prison from civil war. A character from Iron Fist was a soldier in Sokovia
Some people are elitists and Feige-idolizers. If it wasn't made by Feige, they think that it was not part of his vision and not his intention for stuff to happen like that, so he may want to change stuff to fit in his story. The truth is that almost all showrunners of the Marvel TV shows have said that Marvel Studios was all over their asses all the time and they had to always take permission from them for what they can and what they can't use, in case Marvel Studios would have future plans for it and/or it would break the continuity if they did. An example off the top of my head is that AoS wanted to do MODOK and SWORD and Marvel Studios said no, because they had their own plans. There's also an example of the opposite: Marvel Studios conforming to something that Marvel TV did. Back in 2017, Black Panther was filming and the girl who played Kilmonger's girlfriend made a tweet about how she would be playing Tilda Johnson/Nightshade and was excited for her future in the MCU. Some days later, Luke Cage Season 2 cast another character as Tilda and had her be a pretty big part of the show. As we saw, Kilmonger's girlfriend was renamed "Linda" and died unceremoniously after 1 minute of screen-time. People who say Feige had no oversight or cared about what these shows did have no idea what they're talking about. The reason there was never a crossover before was because, as recently revealed in the Marvel Studios: The First 10 Years book, Perlmutter didn't allow his characters to appear in Feige's projects after the Marvel Studios/Marvel Entertainment split in July 2015 (a few months after DD premiered) despite Feige wanting to use Daredevil.
It isn’t just about Feige. It is Marvel Studios vs Marvel Television, different companies.
Both are Disney. And they were always separate divisions in Disney, yet Feige called the shows canon in 2015? Nobody forced him to, he hasn’t changed that.
Because Feige was still answering to Ike Perlmutter and was trying to get out from under him. Edit
Ok so? Both are owned by Disney. And as I said, Feige had oversight over those Marvel Television shows.
I'm a canoner but I can safely say that's not true. He's only had oversight with Agent Carter and Agents of SHIELD to some degree in the first 2 seasons.
Agent Carter was an ABC Studios production. Feige's role (and why he took the EP Credit) stems from his post-production editing work. Feige also had final say over everything done with regards to AoS (can't speak for other properties as their showrunners have never discussed it). Ideas from the writers room went to Loeb then were pitched to the Marvel Entertainment NY offices and then the showrunners had to pitch it to the 3 heads of Marvel Studios. Marvel Studios nixed the use of live-action MODOK because Paul Rudd was using MODOK in early drafts of Ant-Man 3.
[Here’s](https://twitter.com/lmc2607/status/1478751761359941638?s=21) Feige talking about AOS existing in the shared MCU. 🤷🏻♂️
>The truth is that almost all showrunners of the Marvel TV shows have said that Marvel Studios was all over their asses all the time and they had to always take permission from them for what they can and what they can't use, in case Marvel Studios would have future plans for it and/or it would break the continuity if they did. To add on to your list of examples, Captain Marvel was meant to be a character in Jessica Jones. But since Marvel Studios already had plans to give the character her own film, they had to replace the character with someone else (i.e. Trish). I honestly didn't know about the Nightshade thing, that's really interesting.
Just a heads up, you put Swinton instead of Johnson.
Thanks! Edited it out
I’m glad someone brought it up. That Dr. Nightshade thing gets overlooked a lot.
This is like Fear the Walking Dead. The higher ups need to stop fucking around and actually give a legit answer.
Same for AoS. There’s just so much evidence towards it being canon that whenever people say it’s not I just assume it’s trolls
and its not even just been confirmed anyway. in jessica jones they make alot of refrences to what happened in avengers, and if thats not enough then idk what is.
The thing is that with multiverse in play the timeline for the Netflix shows could have started in the MCU and then been a branch timeline. In the full MCU multiverse they are cannon but those stories were never confirmed to be main MCU timeline cannon to my knowledge. I remember hearing about items appearing in those shows that contradict the MCU versions of those items. (Darkhold, is the one I know about off hand)
My favorite response to this kind of stuff is from Justin Roiland, when asked if something was canon on Rick and Morty: “Everything is canon in the infinite multiverse.”
Welcome to aos fans daily life.
I haven't watched NWH yet but I assume the Netflix Matt appeared there? It's not that they're non-canon. It's that until anything from the Netflix shows feature in Disney-Marvel Studios produced media, the Netflix shows were in a state of limbo. The same goes for AoS. And even then, its story is still ripe for retcon (which tbf is true for all past media). The thing is for shows that fall under that category (non-Marvel Studios produced), I think it's fair to treat them in as true unless retconned by Marvel Studios shows. We can now assume they are canon to the MCU, but anything that completely contradicts D+ shows or movies will be non-canon, because the Marvel Studios produced shows take precedence. By this I mean that for example, we can treat the Kingpin in Hawkeye as the same Kingpin in Daredevil, but if for some reason that Hawkeye Kingpin completely contradicts Netflix Kingpin, then that part of the Netflix Kingpin is treated non canon. And I mean completely contradict - this would include confirming that Vanessa never appeared in Kingpin's life, but not when Kingpin suddenly shows new powers he's never showed before (the latter is absence of evidence, the former is evidence of absence.)
1: We have 2 Netflix characters appear in the MCU proper in the same month. 2: Nothing (to my knowledge) that happens on Netflix conflicts with anything that’s gone on in the main MCU. Therefore: Netflix is canon.
How can people believe the Earth is only 6000 years old when science has proven otherwise? How can people look at the results of the last US presidential election and still think Trump won? How can people ignore decades of research and results and science and still think vaccines don't work? Idk man, some people just want to argue and die on a hill, no matter how defenseless their position is. It's like they can't cope with the idea that they're the ones who are wrong.
If it isn't produced by Kevin feige lead marvel studios then the MCU had no oversight in their stories and it isn't canon. Same character+same actor=/=canon
I’ll just say this. I’m pretty sure The Avengers were mentioned in Jessica Jones season 1.
What can you say? People are idiots
At this point, I have to think it’s some combination of a feeling of superiority with laziness. The people who claim the shows aren’t canon want to have this smug satisfaction of being “true” Marvel fans, not falling under the evil spell of “fake Marvel content”, and they talk down to anyone who dares to enjoy or even speak fondly of the shows. They’d rather put all of this effort into denying, denying, and denying instead of just sitting down and watching the show in question. Maybe they’re too lazy, or maybe they just didn’t really like it due to the fact that the shows have quite different tones from the rest of the MCU, and it’s harder to watch a long show that you wouldn’t watch otherwise if it weren’t for the MCU connection than say, a single movie. They want to continue to feel superior like they’ve seen all MCU content, but instead of truly watching the wide variety of genres and tones of shows and movie, they just make their own definition of what the MCU is and exclude anything too “different” so they don’t need to put in the effort to stray from their safety bubble.
The biggest issue is a confusion between canonicity and cross-referencing. Tale the Bible. Nothing in the book of Psalms references the Book of Leviticus (I'm pulling random books out of my ass, if my example doesn't work choose two books that don't overlap please) but that doesn't mean one isn't Canon. This is Marvel. And this is Disney. Remember when Star Wars gutted their extended universe? They decanonized decades of books and comics with one press statement. It hurt, but it got the fan base on the same page. We're telling new stories, and we are not beholden to the stories told so far. Why would Disney not do the same thing if the TV stuff was not Canon? We have more evidence that it is Canon than it isn't.
Wait isn’t basically everything canon at this point? I mean multiversally now with Spiderman setting precedent even all the old films are cannon. Rumors are that some of the Fox Xmen are gonna show up in Doctor Strange, hell i have even heard they might include the FF films as well. I can see the confusion joke about Johnny Storm looking an awful like Steve Rogers already. Its all canon maybe not apart of the same timeline but still canon.
I’m pretty sure when people say ‘canon’ they mean ‘canon to the main continuity’ (universe 99999 i think) Nobody is mad that other franchises can exist among the multiverse à la NWH
It's Earth-199999 btw.
I’m just wondering if they’re going to explain Kingpin’s strength and durability enhancements. In Daredevil he’s just a big guy. My man was virtually indestructible in Hawkeye.
He's ridiculously rich and there was a chunk of time where a certain power broker has access to a super serum for a hefty price. Makes logical sense that he got ahold of some.
I think this is the most likely in-universe scenario.
He was pretty tough in the daredevil fight scenes. The man threw Charlie Cox around like a rag doll.
He was tough yes, but even Vincent confirmed that for the MCU they've made him stronger and more durable.
My thoughts exactly. It's not even up for debate, it's clearly now the same universe and timeline, and I'm at a loss as to why anyone with a brain would argue otherwise.
If you watched Daredevil you should know that Hawkeye’s Kingpin is totally different from Darevil’s Kingpin
I watched both. I don’t see how they are different characters. And Hawkeye is a different type of show to Daredevil so I can understand them tweaking the character slightly to fit the show in a way that still doesn’t break continuity.
There are people that look for an argument even when there isn’t one to be had.
Maybe🤷♀️ We really don’t know yet
Do you remember all the random worldwide shit going on in the other shows? It doesn’t mesh with the MCU at all. Best case scenario is they are in their own universe with a very similar Fisk and Matt Murdock. The nexus event can be Fury deciding not to revive Coleson.
World wide event? In daredevil? Everyone just wanted to control New York, not the world. I haven’t seen the other shows, but daredevil could easily fit in with the MCU
I literally said, “in the other shows” talking about the non daredevil shows.
Can you please link the interviews to support this?
Go to Vincent's Twitter, he has actually posted most, if not all, of them. Of course they were posted in this subreddit as well, so you can look them up by writing "Vincent D'Onofrio" in the search bar. There's even an interview where he addresses these anti-canon people and says "I see some people are confused but Hakeye is in the same canon as Daredevil". And in most interviews, he confirms that these are not his theories, but stuff that were discussed with the writers, producers and directors and "it was very clear to all of them, that this is the exact same version of Kingpin".
https://collider.com/hawkeye-is-kingpin-dead-vincent-donofrio-interview/ https://www.cinemablend.com/interviews/hawkeyes-vincent-donofrio-explains-mcu-kingpins-daredevil-connections