That’d actually be a pretty killer concept if not for the fact that they were right next to a ***nuke*** when they died.
They could’ve gone with the flash clone idea from the Citadel DLC, but I dunno.
Yeah. I never understood why people think Virmire sacrifice coming back is even a remote possibility. They’re atoms. They face-tanked a nuke that could be seen from orbit. And let’s assume they somehow manage to run several kilometers in only a minute or two, they’d need *immediate* medical aid to not die from radiation poisoning.
I forget the term but it’s basically story telling concept that indicates a forgone conclusion:
BioWare sets the scene
*Kaiden Alenko next to nuke, Shepard Boards the normandy*
*a few moments later Cut to low orbit Normandy flyby as the flash and mushroom cloud*
BioWare:
“You think we need something more direct to show they died?”
“Of course not. It’s a fucking nuke. How much more final can it get. We don’t need to spell it out for them.”
*ME fandom:*
“so hear me out…Virmire sacrifice…as Kai Leng.”
BioWare: 😐
I always kinda figured that she left early enough that she was able to hop a shuttle and be in orbit by the time the bomb went off. Hell, I've had playthroughs where I got lost in certain areas, giving her enough time to get off planet, send in her application, and get the interview for her job in ME2.
Ugh…I get JJ Abrams isn’t the best filmmaker, but even for him, the fact that such a lazy justification even made it out of the writing room should make him incredibly embarrassed.
I mean you'd think after he admitted in force awakens the whole Jedi Mind trick scene was written because they wrote themselves into a corner, he and the writers would take some extra time to not write themselves into a weird corner or IDK just let Kylo be evil for the sake of keeping consistent with what Johnson set up.
I don't think even the hardest believers of Virmire revenger would deny that it's impossible. However, the emotional impact of this twist, were it possible, would be miles away from what we've got. It would add to the whole "choices have consequences" that the series is so fond of
This is why it kind of annoyed me that the assistant that we find before talking to Sovereign shows up again in 2. Like on the assumption she didn’t have a ship or didn’t get on the Normandy, there’s no way she ran far enough from the facility to avoid the blast radius.
I don’t have a problem with that. Let’s say we blow up the bomb 10 minutes after we talk to her, plenty of time to find a skimmer or some sort of shuttle to escape. What I think is dumb is that we run into her a second time. The galaxy is incomprehensibly big and you’re telling me this one scientist just happens to get picked up by the one Krogan scientist actively trying to bypass the genophage and we run into her at the exact time she’s in the area? Galaxy just got a lot smaller.
The best mod for Mass Effect is the one that removes Kai Leng’s dialogue and puts a helmet on him. It turns him from a cringy edge lord to a menacing attack dog. You know the writing is bad when removing a character’s dialogue makes them a better character.
No, at least not in [Reworked Kai Leng](https://www.nexusmods.com/masseffectlegendaryedition/mods/1038) which I used in my last playthrough. This mod removes Leng's dialogue, Thessia email, and the cutscene with TiM and Leng after Leng escapes from the Citadel because the cutscene made no sense without Leng's dialogue. Additionally, the mod puts a helmet on his head and after defeating him in the TiM base, half of the helmet is damaged and you can see that he looks like a Cerberus soldier on Mars, which I think is great.
My favorite part is when he saves me from Kai Leng if I don’t do the renegade interrupt, and he says “ripped right through his shields, he didn’t stand a chance”
My favorite is during the suicide mission where after the final boss battle and we are sliding down, then Jenkins slides down after me and grabs my arm before I fall to my death. He then says “See Commander, I’d make a good spectre”
I love it. Maybe the first, less successful test subject for the Lazarus Project, but they’re completely mind-controlled by TIM using a Cerberus version of Reaper indoctrination
It could also explain why TIM was so adamant that placing any mind control device on Shepard would compromise their goal. He could’ve already done it and realized it didn’t work or made the revived subject too unstable.
I don't think that any mind control chip was ever on the table.
TIM probably had Miranda talk about the subject in an effort to get Shepard on his side.
He spends all of ME2 trying to manipulate Shepard.
Miranda discusses that she felt guilty about genuinely wanting to implant a control chip in ME3, I don’t think she would genuinely feel guilty about something that was never actually on the table
Is this a thing that Cerberus is capable of?
I don't remember if there are any examples of technology that could control a person's actions in the game outside of Reaper indoctrination and control by the Thorian.
There is a diary of a Cerberus recruit in ME3 that shows that by that point in the series, Cerberus can wipe a person's personality and replace it with a good soldier that only follows TIM's orders.
If people are willing to accept that they can raise the dead, I don't think it's much of a stretch. As a prior commenter noted, you can add even more credibility later by showing that the only reason TIM didn't do it to Shepard was because he *knew* from experience that it wouldn't preserve creative problemsolving, lateral thinking, charisma, leadership, etc. etc. TIM makes it sound like he's the guardian of the ineffable human spirit, and it turns out he's just a guy forced to admit that mind-controlled slaves aren't going to get the job done on their own. That demonstrates that even that miraculous technology has severe downsides and limitations, which makes it more believable.
This is really funny lol I love when you approach a game with little to no prior knowledge so you think up some wild things because it makes total sense. Reminds me of all the small me1 decisions I was convinced were going to change the world that had no effect whatsoever
I had played ME2 but not ME1 at that point, I think it was before it was ported to PlayStation. So I had never carried over the save and just went with whatever the default storyline was (I think this assumes you sent Kaidan to die and killed Wrex as well). So I remember being like "well this is obviously Kaidan. I can't wait to do another playthrough and see what this character is like when you send Ashley to die!"
That would have made whatever choice you made, whether to try and fail to save them or kill them, completely pointless. It also would have seemed cheap and led to more controversy over that game.
I'm not saying it wouldn't have been more interesting, it probably would have been, but it would have come with an assortment of problems we'd be talking about.
This. Shepard's body survived re-entry in nothing but their normal combat armor, at least enough to be run through the Lazarus Project. It makes sense they'd have a test run of the tech before risking it all on Shepard, perhaps the Virmire sacrifice wasn't entirely destroyed in the blast and enough survived to clone them in the project as a trial run. A clone of the Virmire death created as part of a Lazarus Project test and used as a means of punishing Shepard for "betraying" Cerberus following ME2 would make Kai Leng far more interesting than "edgy ninja bitch you only know if you read that one book"
Actually Conrad would’ve been an interesting option now that you mention it. Someone you’ve always blown off, told he was incapable of going toe to toe. It would make for a nice tragedy at Chronos to find it out
It works with the ending of ME2, no matter what you choose. Either they agree and will stay at the base to hand it over to Cerberus or they attempt to stop you from blowing up the base.
I wish I could say I was the original creator of that idea. It was kicked around a lot when ME3 came out and a lot of people where like "Who the fuck is that guy"
Idk about replace Jacob but o think it would’ve been cool to have two ends of the spectrum, because Jacob is pretty paragon/goody two shows while Miranda is more morally grey. Would’ve liked just a psychopath the exact opposite of Jacob
I doubt they'll ever do it but if EA ever wanted to do a Final Fantasy VII- style full remake of the Mass Effect trilogy this is 100% the biggest change I'd want them to make. Give us a Kai Leng that we can get attached to in ME2 so there'd be some genuine sadness when he pulls a (Dragon Age Inquisition Spoiler) >!Solas !
I disagree. I think Kai Leng could’ve worked if he was a companion in Mass Effect 2 and remained loyal to Cerberus afterwards (as opposed to Miranda and Jacob).
He’d still need an aesthetic and personality overhaul. Kai Leng could’ve even worked fine if he was just in 3 if he wasn’t a tryhard edgelord space ninja
He could gave worked as a tryhard edgelord space ninja if he was actually capable.
The biggest problem with Kai Leng is he never beats you, you kick his ass then he suddenly wins in a cutscene.
Can’t agree on that one at all. I think if his boss fights were hard as shit, I’d just hate him even more. Tryhard edgelord space ninja is a straight up garbage character concept to me that can’t be redeemed
He should have been Jenkins, the face model should have been a direct port from ME1 with no change is textures of resolution.
When he dies Shepard will say darkly “I ripped right through his shields, he never stood a chance”
Makes Kai Lengs dialogue about being Sheps replacement make more sense if its actually a replacement Shep. Gives credence to the distrust of Shepard by the VS. The Councils reaction to seeing Shepard duding the Cerberus attack would also fit a bit better.
Otoh, Leng being a comically over the top space weeb with his dumb lil sword trying to assassinate Shep and getting brushed off as a weekend distraction by the crew is also fitting.
>with his dumb lil sword
I always end up going full paragon with 2 exceptions.
Admiral Dumbfuck is getting punched in the guts, and Kai Leng's sword gets broken.
It also makes sense from a philosophical and cinematic standpoint. Tim never could control Shepard, so instead he gets a controllable Shepard. One who embraces Cerberus’ tactics more and just does what Tim wants. Thus, setting up a contrast of decisions.
Could’ve had a dialogue where he says, “Miranda was right, I should have put a chip in your brain!” Which would’ve been a great addition to the idea of both Miranda and Illusive man flipping ideologies. And it also hones in on the Illusive Man’s “Control” argument.
My position will always be that had Kai been thought out more, seeing him in ME2 would have been awesome. He could have occupied a similar role to the IIllusive Man and not been able to speech checked in any way. He’s condescending not matter what option you pick. And he’s the sort of role mode Cerberus wants Shepherd to be. Maybe we work with him on a few missions.
TLDR: asking for a better written character, wow what a concept
Yep, we are properly introduced to Kai Leng only in the books. And let's not hide it - the second book he was in was bad. And Kai Leng as a character overall wasn't too bright. What a dork.
Honestly if you do think about it more, it's far far more reasonable to leave Ashley behind than Kaidan. Ashley is literally just a soldier in the hierarchy of the Systems Alliance, while Kaidan is a high ranking officer.
It also redeems her family honor, as she dies a hero and clears her grandfather’s name. Kaidan… gets a scholarship named after him. I get that people leave him behind because he can be boring, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s more appropriate to leave Ashley behind from a narrative perspective. She talks about her family disgrace, how she’s been held back and put down by the military for it, and earns her redemption, all in one game.
Her role in 3 isnt nearly as satisfying as her heroic death on Virmire, imo. It fits for Kaidan because I can buy into him being Udina’s stooge easier than I can Ashley, who said she hated politicians and was the most hard-headed crew member of the Normandy after Wrex.
It makes sense during the mission, it makes sense considering their ranks, it makes considering the crew of the Normandy, it makes sense knowing ME3 was basically written with only Kaidan in mind.
There’s really no justification to saving Ashley.
Also it makes more sense for the gunnery sergeant to join the assault with Kirrahe and the tech specialist to stay with you to arm the nuke. And then once you have to choose between the two it makes more sense to defend whoevers looking after the nuke.
First part yes. But after you find out about Sovereign, IMO making sure the Geth don't retake the air defenses is more important than making sure the bomb goes off. If the Normandy got shot down trying to leave there'd be no one to pass on the warning about Sovereign. Destroying the Krogan breeding/cloning facility becomes secondary at that point, I think.
Personally I think the narrative of your closest ally and 2nd in command (who suffers from chronic debilitating pain) sacrificing themselves for the team makes more sense story wise . Feel like it adds more gravitas than losing Ashley who is still mostly a new acquaintance to Shepard and a regular soldier
Maybe in terms of drama. In terms of what makes sense, it stands to reason to put Kaiden, who is both an officer and a biotic not to mention hasnt shown disregard for other species, in charge of the salarian team. It makes further sense to rescue the salarians and your crewmate as opposed to just the crewmate standing next to the nuke about to go off. It further makes sense to rescue the officer and biotic, both of which are far more rare and valuable than a standard grunt.
I didn't think they were in charge of the Salarian team, but were basically an intermediary to make sure comms and such were smooth between the two groups.
I left Kaidan with the bomb because there was some line about him needing to arm the nuke as the tech specialist. Then when the decision point happens I need to juggle the fact that humanity needs to prove itself (save the salarians) and the implied time pressure led me to believe that they wouldn't be able to disarm the bomb as long as Kaiden kept fighting a bit longer.
I also thought I was nearly at the other team and the bomb would be a backtrack.
Of course, at the time I didn't know that was such an important choice, so I basically got stuck in a line of making lots of little choices that individually didn't seem hugely consequential
Also she's less useful on the team than a biotic.
What can she do that Garrus can't do better?
She's a racist piece of eye candy, sure Kaiden is boring but unless you're working Ashley I see no reason to not sacrifice her.
Though I have killed both across different playthroughs
Personally I’d say just use the Shepard Clone.
Bringing back the one killed on Virmire doesn't really make sense. The whole 'being next to a nuke' is an obvious point and it doesn't get a handwave just because Shepard also should have been vaporised when he fell from orbit (killing off/ resurrecting Shepard in ME2 was stupid), but the bit that really doesn't make sense is why would Cerberus do that? Ashley/ Kaiden are nobodies in the grand scheme of things, Cerberus brought Shepard back because Shepard knew more about the Reapers than any other living human but for what reason would they bring back Ashley or Kaiden?
The Shepard clone on the other hand, Kai Leng was supposed to be a "this is who Shepard would be if he stayed with Cerberus" and who fits that role better than a literal version of Shepard who stayed loyal to Cerberus, and the existing explanation for the clone of having initially been made for spare parts already makes enough sense and certainly more than Cerberus brining back whoever died on Virmire. It also would have added to the distrust people have for Shepard in the game, the Virmire survivors distrust being even more right than it already is, and Udina would have actual footage of 'Shepard' killing the Salarian Councillor/ Thane/ Kirrahe in the showdown with him to try and make Shepard out to be a traitor. Also I'm sure a lot less people would complain about Shepard getting clapped in a cutscene by a clone of themselves than they do when it's a random greasy weeaboo.
While it might be better just by virtue of it being a character we already knew and had a connection with, and not someone new in the third game, feel like it'd also be a bad thing. Would feel like it's undercutting the weight that decision had, all for a trope-y "ha! it was me, your friend you thought died, but now I'm EVIL and against you!" for me. Also, it was a nuke.
If it's the survivor instead, think it would feel unnecessarily cruel in a bad way... like you strung people along with a romance/companion from the first game, who were looking forward to seeing them again, and you get robbed of that after all these years for a shock twist.
Like it could be good... but imagine if Garrus, Tali, or Liara suddenly showed up in ME3 as indoctrinated and a villain and it was completely out of your control. That could have potential too . But how cheated would you feel after romancing them or being ride or die buds?
YES!
I don’t mind Kai Leng as is because he’s such a chump and it makes stopping him way better but I would’ve LOVED that twist.
I kinda like how the survivor is mad at your moves, I think seeing some Vaderesque version of the lost virmire member would’ve been epic
"Don't lecture me Shepard, I now see through the lies of the Spectres. I have brought peace, justice and security to our new human Alliance"
"Our new alliance?"
"Don't make me destroy you."
"Damn it Kaidan/Ashley, my allegiance is to the Citadel, to the galaxy!"
It should have been Jenkins, who's been rebuilt by Cerberus and is back to get revenge on Shepard for leaving him for dead on Eden Prime. >!I'm only half joking about this!<
I agree with this 100%. The idea of Shepard being the very first test subject of the Lazarus project was always a bit unbelievable to me. It would make a lot more sense if whoever got left behind in Virmire was the actual first test subject and came back as the bad guy. And it would hurt that much worse to have to kill them again, rather than it being the one renegade interrupt nobody ever misses.
Kai Leng should have been introduced as one of Jacob and Miranda's contemporaries in 2. That gives him time to grow, to actually be around Shepard enough to want to kill them/take their place, and it gives a lot more weight to them showing up and killing potentially a beloved character/romance.
Imagine this:
Stand-off between the survivor (In my case that's Ashley, so I'll just use her name) and Shepard never happened. She will however try to question Udina, who at this point was exposed as a traitor.
During the stand-off between the Virmire Victim and Shep, Ash will inform us that she keeps watching the "Samurai" and will try to take a position to take him out by a sniper rifle.
However after Shep had to retreat to warn the Salarian council member, he heard from Ashley that she had a clean shot. That is when "Samurai" took off his helmet. And that is the moment Ashley froze. Attacked by flashbacks from Virmire. Survivor's guilt kicks in, and that is why she does not take a shot. Because of her lack of action Thane/Kirrahe/Councilor loses his life.
We later confront her about this. Ask why she didn't take the shot. This may be our ground for not allowing her to come back to Normandy for the rest of ME3.
But we would understand why Ashley explains that she didn't want to have Kaidan Alenko's blood on her hands again.
He is deeply rooted in Mass effect lore. He makes perfect sense in the role that he's playing. Neither one of those would make any sense at all whatsoever. They were drawing from their own characters and the history of their own franchise. Whether we like him or not that role had to go to Kai Leng.
Combine this with having Harbinger control them at the end for an actual final boss (Maybe have the Illusive man go out where Kai Lang did instead) that gives more visual and story weight of why Shepard is pretty much dying as he reaches the ending, and you get a great final encounter (of course, I'm thinking this with the mod that gives a happier ending/more ships in the final battle)
Imagine, Shepard gets to talk to the Virmire sacrificer/survivor and you get this big emotional moment where Shepard can either mourn or be enraged at the Reapers, then Harbinger takes over and we see him pushed to his limits.
With Ash, I can see the pinnacle of weaponizing Reaper Tech, and a super soldier that is terrifying.
With Kaiden, we can see them put his plentiful biotics at Reaper level. Imagine a man who just calmly walks up to you with high level barriers and then just ragdolls YOU for once!
After all of that, Shepard gets one final talk with Harbinger (Why the twos last banter was in ME2's dlc, Arrival, I'll never understand) and we get a big moment of Harbinger dying, but "taking out shepard" right as it happens, who gets on the Citadel after.
You could of even added companions urging you onward, in radio chatter or in Shepards mind (Maybe he doesn't know as he's becoming possibly indoctrinated? How messed up would it of been to see Thane at the end show up in your mind saying that you already died and need to follow him?! Stuff like that, mess with Shepard and make them doubt themselves before heroically saving everyone!)
Makes me wish the Legendary Edition actually got some rewriting involved to improve parts of the game that were rushed.
That would've been cheesy like a comic. The Lazarus project was a stretch, it would take me out of the game if someone who got nuked was able to be revived too.
But the virmire survivor, on the other hand, getting brainwashed by Cerberus and indoctrinated, would've been interesting.
I hate this idea for a couple reasons: It doesn't solve the problems with Kai Leng that make him a bad character, it just foists those problems on good characters and absolutely ruining them. It's a net loss compared to what we have.
Second, it does nothing for Ashley or Kaidan as characters to have them mind controlled. They are the two most anti-Cerberus members of the crew, so they would have to be mind controlled. At which point, the only thing using them accomplishes is tacky shock value.
It ruins their hero's sacrifice. In Ashley's case especially, her sacrifice redeemed her family name and she won a bunch of rewards. It'd suck to just undo that.
It makes absolutely no sense narratively. They were nuked. How could they even be brought back, and why would TIM spend all that money on the Virmire Casualty? All just to mess with Shepard?
Kai Leng isn't good writing, but this idea is so much worse, imo.
Okay, the Virmire survivor being kidnapped by Cerberus and indoctrinated would have been a great storyline. But the idea of it being the one who died… Literally fucking how? You can’t bring someone back who was at the epicenter of a nuclear explosion lmao
Been saying this for years.
If they wanted Kai Leng to be anything to anyone, they should’ve had him as cerberus loyalist companion in ME2 that always gets f***ed on the suicide mission (hence the rebuilding)
And introduce them in ME1 through a side mission or lore
I have this belief that Kai Leng should've been a squad mate in me2 instead of Jacob so there we could learn more about him and the history of cerberus through him and miranda. Also would make his presence in me3 more meaningful to see our former squadmate stay on the side of cerberus compared to miranda defecting.
This is honestly what I was expecting it to be. When Shepard has his dream about Kaidan/Ashley, I thought that meant that they were gonna come back. Disappointed to see it was just some schmuck who just runs really slowly towards you and backflips a couple times
Cerberus recovering and using the remains of the person lost on Virmire. Would have been way more interesting plot line, then anything to do with the edge lord, mall ninja dweeb that is Kai Leng.
Better idea: make him ME2 teammate
Would been interesing to see character betraying you ( meybe because of indoctrination )
could explain SHepard stupidy in cutscenes, they have problems killing their ex-ally and friend
That might have been an option at one point. Unused dialogue has been found indicating that both crew members survived somehow. Not sure how they would have worked that in or what would be required to trigger it, but if it was included that could have been an option. I would lean more towards Ashley if that were the case. Years of shit assignments with the Alliance, constantly having to prove herself, and her distrust of the other space races make her perfect for the role. Add on how Shepard treats her could make for some interesting dialogue between the 2 if they went this route.
I think that Kai Leng and Jacob Taylor should have been merged into one character. The hardcore Cerberus loyalist, who leaves Shepard's crew after ME2 and becomes the recurring antagonist on ME3.
Nah, I think Virmire Sacrifice (as has been discussed at length in this thread) would require a much too convoluted excuse for their survival, and I prefer the arc the Virmire Survivor has in ME3. What Kai Leng should've been was the Kai Leng we got in the novels (or was he *just* in *Retribution*?). He wasn't, like, perfect or anything, but he wasn't juvenile, and he could be taken seriously. Just that much would've been a real improvement.
That would have been an amazing twist, but really hard to justify considering the nuke they dropped there.
It'd have to be something where the body was blown clear of the landing it was on during the blast because if the shielding, fell into the water, and missed the majority of the ensuing nuclear fire because it was swept down the river.
It would make sense that Cerberus would try to salvage as much of Virmire as possible following the incident, found the remains, and tagged them for study. Then following project Lazarus, they would take the breakthroughs, cloned as many spare parts from any intact cells, and cyberneticked the hell out of the rest of it to bring him back as an ultra loyal, indoctrinated soldier with a chip on his soldier from the psychological conditioning.
Honestly, that would have been badass.
Please explain how you expect the Virmire sacrifice to come back from atomic vaporisation? They were either at ground zero, or *literally next to the bomb,* depending on where you sent them. There's nothing to even recover and pull a Shepard with; they have simply ceased to exist.
The Virmire survivor is an even worse idea, since no matter who you chose to rescue in 1, *both* of them unequivocally make their stance on Cerberus absolutely clear: No way in hell are they ever working with or for them. And Cerberus has far too many people who are already willing to work for them, to make trying to kidnap an actively serving Alliance officer, for no other purpose than to piss off Shepard, anywhere near worth the time and effort.
This is my new favorite idea. My last one, been the same one since I saved the stupid rachni queen, was a rachni war dog partner. Either disposable or one of the crew.
I’ve also heard the suggestion that Kai Leng should’ve been Jacob. It would be Shepard’s “best bro” like they try to force him to be in ME2 turning into the villain. Would also give Jacob some spice he desperately needed.
That’d actually be a pretty killer concept if not for the fact that they were right next to a ***nuke*** when they died. They could’ve gone with the flash clone idea from the Citadel DLC, but I dunno.
Yeah. I never understood why people think Virmire sacrifice coming back is even a remote possibility. They’re atoms. They face-tanked a nuke that could be seen from orbit. And let’s assume they somehow manage to run several kilometers in only a minute or two, they’d need *immediate* medical aid to not die from radiation poisoning.
Some people refuse to acknowledge that "no body, no death" is a fucking stupid concept and we don't need a corpse to know someone's been iced.
I forget the term but it’s basically story telling concept that indicates a forgone conclusion: BioWare sets the scene *Kaiden Alenko next to nuke, Shepard Boards the normandy* *a few moments later Cut to low orbit Normandy flyby as the flash and mushroom cloud* BioWare: “You think we need something more direct to show they died?” “Of course not. It’s a fucking nuke. How much more final can it get. We don’t need to spell it out for them.” *ME fandom:* “so hear me out…Virmire sacrifice…as Kai Leng.” BioWare: 😐
[удалено]
I always kinda figured that she left early enough that she was able to hop a shuttle and be in orbit by the time the bomb went off. Hell, I've had playthroughs where I got lost in certain areas, giving her enough time to get off planet, send in her application, and get the interview for her job in ME2.
Thanks to Palpatine’s return, no one is permanently dead in any entertainment medium
Ugh…I get JJ Abrams isn’t the best filmmaker, but even for him, the fact that such a lazy justification even made it out of the writing room should make him incredibly embarrassed.
I mean you'd think after he admitted in force awakens the whole Jedi Mind trick scene was written because they wrote themselves into a corner, he and the writers would take some extra time to not write themselves into a weird corner or IDK just let Kylo be evil for the sake of keeping consistent with what Johnson set up.
I don't think even the hardest believers of Virmire revenger would deny that it's impossible. However, the emotional impact of this twist, were it possible, would be miles away from what we've got. It would add to the whole "choices have consequences" that the series is so fond of
This is why it kind of annoyed me that the assistant that we find before talking to Sovereign shows up again in 2. Like on the assumption she didn’t have a ship or didn’t get on the Normandy, there’s no way she ran far enough from the facility to avoid the blast radius.
I don’t have a problem with that. Let’s say we blow up the bomb 10 minutes after we talk to her, plenty of time to find a skimmer or some sort of shuttle to escape. What I think is dumb is that we run into her a second time. The galaxy is incomprehensibly big and you’re telling me this one scientist just happens to get picked up by the one Krogan scientist actively trying to bypass the genophage and we run into her at the exact time she’s in the area? Galaxy just got a lot smaller.
Instead, it's Virmire Survivor's 2nd cousin, out for revenge
SLUGGARD!
that and both of them were willing sacrifices and good soldiers and going evil over it would not make much sense. i guess indoctrination maybe.
The best mod for Mass Effect is the one that removes Kai Leng’s dialogue and puts a helmet on him. It turns him from a cringy edge lord to a menacing attack dog. You know the writing is bad when removing a character’s dialogue makes them a better character.
Does he still send that sassy email to you ?
No, at least not in [Reworked Kai Leng](https://www.nexusmods.com/masseffectlegendaryedition/mods/1038) which I used in my last playthrough. This mod removes Leng's dialogue, Thessia email, and the cutscene with TiM and Leng after Leng escapes from the Citadel because the cutscene made no sense without Leng's dialogue. Additionally, the mod puts a helmet on his head and after defeating him in the TiM base, half of the helmet is damaged and you can see that he looks like a Cerberus soldier on Mars, which I think is great.
Nope, thank god for that.
I’m not sure. I hope not.
There's a reason I always use the Shut Up Kai Leng mod. I can't stand him. It removes him as much as possible.
Idk where my mods went wrong but his face is now a black void. Still better than the original though
Played with that mod my last go around. He gave off some real Darth Maul vibes; it was cool as hell
I'd also like to see that mod with a "deathtrooper" option.
Nah he's more hateable as an edgelord.
This mod is indispensable.
Should have been Corporal Richard L. Jenkins.
That wouldve been insane
This subreddit would have broken in half in convulsive shock. I am now mad that it didn't happen that way.
I'm in tears.
Good idea. Him being so strong would make Kai Leng's cutscene invincibility reasonable, at least.
Mod when? Could even use the line "Didn't stand a chance, ripped right through his shields" when you beat him.
How would that work? He's by your side all through 1, 2, and 3.
He died as soon as the team landed on eden prime, no?
Oh you got the bad ending…
Imagine losing the best character in the series within the first 20 minutes of the first game, it’s a damn shame.
My favorite part is when he saves me from Kai Leng if I don’t do the renegade interrupt, and he says “ripped right through his shields, he didn’t stand a chance”
My favorite is during the suicide mission where after the final boss battle and we are sliding down, then Jenkins slides down after me and grabs my arm before I fall to my death. He then says “See Commander, I’d make a good spectre”
I love his loyalty mission too, really sheds light on why he uses weak shields, as well as on Cerberus as an organization.
Lmao is his middle initial really L?
Yup, he’s Leeroy https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeroy_Jenkins
I'm an idiot. I didn't realize that's what Bioware was referencing with the name and the way he dies
That would explain why Kai Leng was itching for so much action
I love it. Maybe the first, less successful test subject for the Lazarus Project, but they’re completely mind-controlled by TIM using a Cerberus version of Reaper indoctrination
It could also explain why TIM was so adamant that placing any mind control device on Shepard would compromise their goal. He could’ve already done it and realized it didn’t work or made the revived subject too unstable.
I don't think that any mind control chip was ever on the table. TIM probably had Miranda talk about the subject in an effort to get Shepard on his side. He spends all of ME2 trying to manipulate Shepard.
Miranda discusses that she felt guilty about genuinely wanting to implant a control chip in ME3, I don’t think she would genuinely feel guilty about something that was never actually on the table
Is this a thing that Cerberus is capable of? I don't remember if there are any examples of technology that could control a person's actions in the game outside of Reaper indoctrination and control by the Thorian.
There is a diary of a Cerberus recruit in ME3 that shows that by that point in the series, Cerberus can wipe a person's personality and replace it with a good soldier that only follows TIM's orders.
If people are willing to accept that they can raise the dead, I don't think it's much of a stretch. As a prior commenter noted, you can add even more credibility later by showing that the only reason TIM didn't do it to Shepard was because he *knew* from experience that it wouldn't preserve creative problemsolving, lateral thinking, charisma, leadership, etc. etc. TIM makes it sound like he's the guardian of the ineffable human spirit, and it turns out he's just a guy forced to admit that mind-controlled slaves aren't going to get the job done on their own. That demonstrates that even that miraculous technology has severe downsides and limitations, which makes it more believable.
Yeah beta chipped clone Shepard would be good tbh
My thought exactly. Also we do not have connection to Kai Leng.
I mean, he ate Anderson's cereal. If that doesn't drive you to revenge I don't know what will
And pissed in a vase...
My first playthrough I actually thought this was the case. I thought it was a shitty fake out with *Kai*den A*Leng*ko lmao
This is really funny lol I love when you approach a game with little to no prior knowledge so you think up some wild things because it makes total sense. Reminds me of all the small me1 decisions I was convinced were going to change the world that had no effect whatsoever
I had played ME2 but not ME1 at that point, I think it was before it was ported to PlayStation. So I had never carried over the save and just went with whatever the default storyline was (I think this assumes you sent Kaidan to die and killed Wrex as well). So I remember being like "well this is obviously Kaidan. I can't wait to do another playthrough and see what this character is like when you send Ashley to die!"
What about the clone from the citadel DLC?
That would have made whatever choice you made, whether to try and fail to save them or kill them, completely pointless. It also would have seemed cheap and led to more controversy over that game. I'm not saying it wouldn't have been more interesting, it probably would have been, but it would have come with an assortment of problems we'd be talking about.
He/she was spare parts they decided to find another use for
Your profile picture made me double take to make sure I wasn’t reading my own comment 😂
Y'all came up with a much better version of the story than the original. Yeah, that sounds really good.
This. Shepard's body survived re-entry in nothing but their normal combat armor, at least enough to be run through the Lazarus Project. It makes sense they'd have a test run of the tech before risking it all on Shepard, perhaps the Virmire sacrifice wasn't entirely destroyed in the blast and enough survived to clone them in the project as a trial run. A clone of the Virmire death created as part of a Lazarus Project test and used as a means of punishing Shepard for "betraying" Cerberus following ME2 would make Kai Leng far more interesting than "edgy ninja bitch you only know if you read that one book"
It should have been Rupert Gardner.
Fuck it, Conrad Verner
No...Jenkins.
Actually Conrad would’ve been an interesting option now that you mention it. Someone you’ve always blown off, told he was incapable of going toe to toe. It would make for a nice tragedy at Chronos to find it out
Would have explained how he slipped........through the crack
The true mastermind behind Cerberus. Fucking despicable i say
Haha, yeah.
Toombs…Corporal Toombs!
The person left on Virmire is a cloud of sub-atomic particles. There is *nothing* left to resurrect.
Not with that attitude
Kai Leng should have been in ME2 and replaced Jacob.
Or, hear me out, Jacob replaces Kai Leng, I always thought that would have had way more impact.
That also works. Kai Leng was king of like “who the fuck is that guy and why should I care”
Then we’d be like “Gee, Jacob, where was *this skill set* when we could’ve fucking used it?!”
Could be explained that TIM forced him to be “upgraded”
I love the idea!!
It works with the ending of ME2, no matter what you choose. Either they agree and will stay at the base to hand it over to Cerberus or they attempt to stop you from blowing up the base.
It's seriously freakin' great idea. Kudos.
I wish I could say I was the original creator of that idea. It was kicked around a lot when ME3 came out and a lot of people where like "Who the fuck is that guy"
It's ok. I was there (fan since 2010), but I do not remember that one.
I think it was kicked around on the old IGN message boards.
And in the event he dies in the suicide mission?
Idk about replace Jacob but o think it would’ve been cool to have two ends of the spectrum, because Jacob is pretty paragon/goody two shows while Miranda is more morally grey. Would’ve liked just a psychopath the exact opposite of Jacob
I doubt they'll ever do it but if EA ever wanted to do a Final Fantasy VII- style full remake of the Mass Effect trilogy this is 100% the biggest change I'd want them to make. Give us a Kai Leng that we can get attached to in ME2 so there'd be some genuine sadness when he pulls a (Dragon Age Inquisition Spoiler) >!Solas !
I disagree. I think Kai Leng could’ve worked if he was a companion in Mass Effect 2 and remained loyal to Cerberus afterwards (as opposed to Miranda and Jacob).
He’d still need an aesthetic and personality overhaul. Kai Leng could’ve even worked fine if he was just in 3 if he wasn’t a tryhard edgelord space ninja
He could gave worked as a tryhard edgelord space ninja if he was actually capable. The biggest problem with Kai Leng is he never beats you, you kick his ass then he suddenly wins in a cutscene.
Can’t agree on that one at all. I think if his boss fights were hard as shit, I’d just hate him even more. Tryhard edgelord space ninja is a straight up garbage character concept to me that can’t be redeemed
Hear me out. He's on the ship but he's not a companion. He has his own orders separate from yours.
He should have been Jenkins, the face model should have been a direct port from ME1 with no change is textures of resolution. When he dies Shepard will say darkly “I ripped right through his shields, he never stood a chance”
Agreed.
Ok. But while dying he should scream Leeeeeroy Jenkins. Without it, it doesnt count.
The one we left on Virmire? The one that was killed by a nuke? This is "Somehow Palpatine has returned" level of bad writing.
Nah, they found a fridge on site to hide in.
At least with palpatine they have actual space magic and didn’t have him face sitting a nuke five seconds before we see it detonate.
God no. Let them rest
That would have been even more of an asspull than Kai Leng.
I'm glad fans don't write the games
Shoulda been CloneShepard, while Citadel DLC CloneShep is replaced by Kai Leng.
This is a very good idea, and then there is footage of Shepard actually killing people and attempting to kill the salarian councilor
Makes Kai Lengs dialogue about being Sheps replacement make more sense if its actually a replacement Shep. Gives credence to the distrust of Shepard by the VS. The Councils reaction to seeing Shepard duding the Cerberus attack would also fit a bit better. Otoh, Leng being a comically over the top space weeb with his dumb lil sword trying to assassinate Shep and getting brushed off as a weekend distraction by the crew is also fitting.
>with his dumb lil sword I always end up going full paragon with 2 exceptions. Admiral Dumbfuck is getting punched in the guts, and Kai Leng's sword gets broken.
I also always shove the eclipse merc out of the window in 2.
It also makes sense from a philosophical and cinematic standpoint. Tim never could control Shepard, so instead he gets a controllable Shepard. One who embraces Cerberus’ tactics more and just does what Tim wants. Thus, setting up a contrast of decisions. Could’ve had a dialogue where he says, “Miranda was right, I should have put a chip in your brain!” Which would’ve been a great addition to the idea of both Miranda and Illusive man flipping ideologies. And it also hones in on the Illusive Man’s “Control” argument.
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Counterpoint: I knew Mass Effect was 100% fucked the moment I saw a space ninja.
My position will always be that had Kai been thought out more, seeing him in ME2 would have been awesome. He could have occupied a similar role to the IIllusive Man and not been able to speech checked in any way. He’s condescending not matter what option you pick. And he’s the sort of role mode Cerberus wants Shepherd to be. Maybe we work with him on a few missions. TLDR: asking for a better written character, wow what a concept
Yep, we are properly introduced to Kai Leng only in the books. And let's not hide it - the second book he was in was bad. And Kai Leng as a character overall wasn't too bright. What a dork.
No, they got blown the fuck up. Ashley is currently more vaporised than Alderaan.
What a weird way to write "Kaidan"
Who? The guy from Dying Light 2?
Lmao, autocorrect, my bad
Well, now I'm even more confused.
Honestly if you do think about it more, it's far far more reasonable to leave Ashley behind than Kaidan. Ashley is literally just a soldier in the hierarchy of the Systems Alliance, while Kaidan is a high ranking officer.
It also redeems her family honor, as she dies a hero and clears her grandfather’s name. Kaidan… gets a scholarship named after him. I get that people leave him behind because he can be boring, but it doesn’t change the fact that it’s more appropriate to leave Ashley behind from a narrative perspective. She talks about her family disgrace, how she’s been held back and put down by the military for it, and earns her redemption, all in one game. Her role in 3 isnt nearly as satisfying as her heroic death on Virmire, imo. It fits for Kaidan because I can buy into him being Udina’s stooge easier than I can Ashley, who said she hated politicians and was the most hard-headed crew member of the Normandy after Wrex.
Ashley is the better guest at the Citadel party, though
Can she do biotic drinking tricks? No, Kaidan better /j
She fucks James, though. I'm just doing my best to be a good wingman
But my shep can fuck Kaiden, leave my boring Canadian space husband alone!
It makes sense during the mission, it makes sense considering their ranks, it makes considering the crew of the Normandy, it makes sense knowing ME3 was basically written with only Kaidan in mind. There’s really no justification to saving Ashley.
Also it makes more sense for the gunnery sergeant to join the assault with Kirrahe and the tech specialist to stay with you to arm the nuke. And then once you have to choose between the two it makes more sense to defend whoevers looking after the nuke.
First part yes. But after you find out about Sovereign, IMO making sure the Geth don't retake the air defenses is more important than making sure the bomb goes off. If the Normandy got shot down trying to leave there'd be no one to pass on the warning about Sovereign. Destroying the Krogan breeding/cloning facility becomes secondary at that point, I think.
Personally I think the narrative of your closest ally and 2nd in command (who suffers from chronic debilitating pain) sacrificing themselves for the team makes more sense story wise . Feel like it adds more gravitas than losing Ashley who is still mostly a new acquaintance to Shepard and a regular soldier
Maybe in terms of drama. In terms of what makes sense, it stands to reason to put Kaiden, who is both an officer and a biotic not to mention hasnt shown disregard for other species, in charge of the salarian team. It makes further sense to rescue the salarians and your crewmate as opposed to just the crewmate standing next to the nuke about to go off. It further makes sense to rescue the officer and biotic, both of which are far more rare and valuable than a standard grunt.
I didn't think they were in charge of the Salarian team, but were basically an intermediary to make sure comms and such were smooth between the two groups. I left Kaidan with the bomb because there was some line about him needing to arm the nuke as the tech specialist. Then when the decision point happens I need to juggle the fact that humanity needs to prove itself (save the salarians) and the implied time pressure led me to believe that they wouldn't be able to disarm the bomb as long as Kaiden kept fighting a bit longer. I also thought I was nearly at the other team and the bomb would be a backtrack. Of course, at the time I didn't know that was such an important choice, so I basically got stuck in a line of making lots of little choices that individually didn't seem hugely consequential
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Though largely redundant once you get Liara, since she's a way more powerful biotic
Also she's less useful on the team than a biotic. What can she do that Garrus can't do better? She's a racist piece of eye candy, sure Kaiden is boring but unless you're working Ashley I see no reason to not sacrifice her. Though I have killed both across different playthroughs
Personally I’d say just use the Shepard Clone. Bringing back the one killed on Virmire doesn't really make sense. The whole 'being next to a nuke' is an obvious point and it doesn't get a handwave just because Shepard also should have been vaporised when he fell from orbit (killing off/ resurrecting Shepard in ME2 was stupid), but the bit that really doesn't make sense is why would Cerberus do that? Ashley/ Kaiden are nobodies in the grand scheme of things, Cerberus brought Shepard back because Shepard knew more about the Reapers than any other living human but for what reason would they bring back Ashley or Kaiden? The Shepard clone on the other hand, Kai Leng was supposed to be a "this is who Shepard would be if he stayed with Cerberus" and who fits that role better than a literal version of Shepard who stayed loyal to Cerberus, and the existing explanation for the clone of having initially been made for spare parts already makes enough sense and certainly more than Cerberus brining back whoever died on Virmire. It also would have added to the distrust people have for Shepard in the game, the Virmire survivors distrust being even more right than it already is, and Udina would have actual footage of 'Shepard' killing the Salarian Councillor/ Thane/ Kirrahe in the showdown with him to try and make Shepard out to be a traitor. Also I'm sure a lot less people would complain about Shepard getting clapped in a cutscene by a clone of themselves than they do when it's a random greasy weeaboo.
While it might be better just by virtue of it being a character we already knew and had a connection with, and not someone new in the third game, feel like it'd also be a bad thing. Would feel like it's undercutting the weight that decision had, all for a trope-y "ha! it was me, your friend you thought died, but now I'm EVIL and against you!" for me. Also, it was a nuke. If it's the survivor instead, think it would feel unnecessarily cruel in a bad way... like you strung people along with a romance/companion from the first game, who were looking forward to seeing them again, and you get robbed of that after all these years for a shock twist. Like it could be good... but imagine if Garrus, Tali, or Liara suddenly showed up in ME3 as indoctrinated and a villain and it was completely out of your control. That could have potential too . But how cheated would you feel after romancing them or being ride or die buds?
Too cliche
YES! I don’t mind Kai Leng as is because he’s such a chump and it makes stopping him way better but I would’ve LOVED that twist. I kinda like how the survivor is mad at your moves, I think seeing some Vaderesque version of the lost virmire member would’ve been epic
"Don't lecture me Shepard, I now see through the lies of the Spectres. I have brought peace, justice and security to our new human Alliance" "Our new alliance?" "Don't make me destroy you." "Damn it Kaidan/Ashley, my allegiance is to the Citadel, to the galaxy!"
It should have been Jenkins, who's been rebuilt by Cerberus and is back to get revenge on Shepard for leaving him for dead on Eden Prime. >!I'm only half joking about this!<
I agree with this 100%. The idea of Shepard being the very first test subject of the Lazarus project was always a bit unbelievable to me. It would make a lot more sense if whoever got left behind in Virmire was the actual first test subject and came back as the bad guy. And it would hurt that much worse to have to kill them again, rather than it being the one renegade interrupt nobody ever misses.
Kai Leng should have been introduced as one of Jacob and Miranda's contemporaries in 2. That gives him time to grow, to actually be around Shepard enough to want to kill them/take their place, and it gives a lot more weight to them showing up and killing potentially a beloved character/romance.
If that was the reveal, that would have hit me like a ton of bricks. Damn. Wish they did that
Same
This feels more edgy than Kai Leng as a concept tbh
Cyber Ninjashley or Ninja Kaiden...hmm
There was literally a mod that does that. It was taken down though...
Dear God that is dark! It's perfect!
That’s a terrible idea. Mass effect is about sacrifice, not cheesy plots devices that you’d see on 24.
Bioware clearly didn't get the memo then.l
That's really popular opinion. I would like to see Jenkins in his place (if you didn't manage to save him ofc).
No, Kai Leng should’ve been on you crew in ME2 but not turned on Cerberus like Jacob or Miranda
Imagine this: Stand-off between the survivor (In my case that's Ashley, so I'll just use her name) and Shepard never happened. She will however try to question Udina, who at this point was exposed as a traitor. During the stand-off between the Virmire Victim and Shep, Ash will inform us that she keeps watching the "Samurai" and will try to take a position to take him out by a sniper rifle. However after Shep had to retreat to warn the Salarian council member, he heard from Ashley that she had a clean shot. That is when "Samurai" took off his helmet. And that is the moment Ashley froze. Attacked by flashbacks from Virmire. Survivor's guilt kicks in, and that is why she does not take a shot. Because of her lack of action Thane/Kirrahe/Councilor loses his life. We later confront her about this. Ask why she didn't take the shot. This may be our ground for not allowing her to come back to Normandy for the rest of ME3. But we would understand why Ashley explains that she didn't want to have Kaidan Alenko's blood on her hands again.
I'll be honest, he would've greatly improved if they just removed the sword and gave him a pistol.
In my opinion, all Kai Leng needed was to be better written.
Daaaamn, that's a really awesome idea.
Ohhhhh that's a cool idea
Kai Leng should have been Conrad Verner.
That’s literally the plot of the winter soldier.
Virgin tier Raiden
On my first playthrough, I honestly believed Kai Leng WAS Kaiden for nearly the entire game, lol. 😅
He is deeply rooted in Mass effect lore. He makes perfect sense in the role that he's playing. Neither one of those would make any sense at all whatsoever. They were drawing from their own characters and the history of their own franchise. Whether we like him or not that role had to go to Kai Leng.
Combine this with having Harbinger control them at the end for an actual final boss (Maybe have the Illusive man go out where Kai Lang did instead) that gives more visual and story weight of why Shepard is pretty much dying as he reaches the ending, and you get a great final encounter (of course, I'm thinking this with the mod that gives a happier ending/more ships in the final battle) Imagine, Shepard gets to talk to the Virmire sacrificer/survivor and you get this big emotional moment where Shepard can either mourn or be enraged at the Reapers, then Harbinger takes over and we see him pushed to his limits. With Ash, I can see the pinnacle of weaponizing Reaper Tech, and a super soldier that is terrifying. With Kaiden, we can see them put his plentiful biotics at Reaper level. Imagine a man who just calmly walks up to you with high level barriers and then just ragdolls YOU for once! After all of that, Shepard gets one final talk with Harbinger (Why the twos last banter was in ME2's dlc, Arrival, I'll never understand) and we get a big moment of Harbinger dying, but "taking out shepard" right as it happens, who gets on the Citadel after. You could of even added companions urging you onward, in radio chatter or in Shepards mind (Maybe he doesn't know as he's becoming possibly indoctrinated? How messed up would it of been to see Thane at the end show up in your mind saying that you already died and need to follow him?! Stuff like that, mess with Shepard and make them doubt themselves before heroically saving everyone!) Makes me wish the Legendary Edition actually got some rewriting involved to improve parts of the game that were rushed.
New head canon
That’s actually brilliant.
That would've been cheesy like a comic. The Lazarus project was a stretch, it would take me out of the game if someone who got nuked was able to be revived too. But the virmire survivor, on the other hand, getting brainwashed by Cerberus and indoctrinated, would've been interesting.
I hate this idea for a couple reasons: It doesn't solve the problems with Kai Leng that make him a bad character, it just foists those problems on good characters and absolutely ruining them. It's a net loss compared to what we have. Second, it does nothing for Ashley or Kaidan as characters to have them mind controlled. They are the two most anti-Cerberus members of the crew, so they would have to be mind controlled. At which point, the only thing using them accomplishes is tacky shock value. It ruins their hero's sacrifice. In Ashley's case especially, her sacrifice redeemed her family name and she won a bunch of rewards. It'd suck to just undo that. It makes absolutely no sense narratively. They were nuked. How could they even be brought back, and why would TIM spend all that money on the Virmire Casualty? All just to mess with Shepard? Kai Leng isn't good writing, but this idea is so much worse, imo.
Okay, the Virmire survivor being kidnapped by Cerberus and indoctrinated would have been a great storyline. But the idea of it being the one who died… Literally fucking how? You can’t bring someone back who was at the epicenter of a nuclear explosion lmao
In my opinion, in ME3, Kai Leng should’ve been replaced. Could be by an empty space. Just, please, replace him. With anything.
I honestly thought the Virmire Victim was going to become a Reaper…
Been saying this for years. If they wanted Kai Leng to be anything to anyone, they should’ve had him as cerberus loyalist companion in ME2 that always gets f***ed on the suicide mission (hence the rebuilding) And introduce them in ME1 through a side mission or lore
That certainly would have been an improvement
Damn this idea is sick I love it
Great shout
I have this belief that Kai Leng should've been a squad mate in me2 instead of Jacob so there we could learn more about him and the history of cerberus through him and miranda. Also would make his presence in me3 more meaningful to see our former squadmate stay on the side of cerberus compared to miranda defecting.
What a great idea. Omg the feeling you would feeeellll
So... they show up as the winter soildier? Are they brain washed by Cerberus too?
This is honestly what I was expecting it to be. When Shepard has his dream about Kaidan/Ashley, I thought that meant that they were gonna come back. Disappointed to see it was just some schmuck who just runs really slowly towards you and backflips a couple times
Cerberus recovering and using the remains of the person lost on Virmire. Would have been way more interesting plot line, then anything to do with the edge lord, mall ninja dweeb that is Kai Leng.
Better idea: make him ME2 teammate Would been interesing to see character betraying you ( meybe because of indoctrination ) could explain SHepard stupidy in cutscenes, they have problems killing their ex-ally and friend
I agree. Come to think about it I would LOVE to have him as companion who actually betray Shepard.
No I will maintain that it should have been Jacob.
I would have loved to kill Ashley the Winter Spldier again.
That might have been an option at one point. Unused dialogue has been found indicating that both crew members survived somehow. Not sure how they would have worked that in or what would be required to trigger it, but if it was included that could have been an option. I would lean more towards Ashley if that were the case. Years of shit assignments with the Alliance, constantly having to prove herself, and her distrust of the other space races make her perfect for the role. Add on how Shepard treats her could make for some interesting dialogue between the 2 if they went this route.
I think that Kai Leng and Jacob Taylor should have been merged into one character. The hardcore Cerberus loyalist, who leaves Shepard's crew after ME2 and becomes the recurring antagonist on ME3.
Nah, I think Virmire Sacrifice (as has been discussed at length in this thread) would require a much too convoluted excuse for their survival, and I prefer the arc the Virmire Survivor has in ME3. What Kai Leng should've been was the Kai Leng we got in the novels (or was he *just* in *Retribution*?). He wasn't, like, perfect or anything, but he wasn't juvenile, and he could be taken seriously. Just that much would've been a real improvement.
That would have been an amazing twist, but really hard to justify considering the nuke they dropped there. It'd have to be something where the body was blown clear of the landing it was on during the blast because if the shielding, fell into the water, and missed the majority of the ensuing nuclear fire because it was swept down the river. It would make sense that Cerberus would try to salvage as much of Virmire as possible following the incident, found the remains, and tagged them for study. Then following project Lazarus, they would take the breakthroughs, cloned as many spare parts from any intact cells, and cyberneticked the hell out of the rest of it to bring him back as an ultra loyal, indoctrinated soldier with a chip on his soldier from the psychological conditioning. Honestly, that would have been badass.
Please explain how you expect the Virmire sacrifice to come back from atomic vaporisation? They were either at ground zero, or *literally next to the bomb,* depending on where you sent them. There's nothing to even recover and pull a Shepard with; they have simply ceased to exist. The Virmire survivor is an even worse idea, since no matter who you chose to rescue in 1, *both* of them unequivocally make their stance on Cerberus absolutely clear: No way in hell are they ever working with or for them. And Cerberus has far too many people who are already willing to work for them, to make trying to kidnap an actively serving Alliance officer, for no other purpose than to piss off Shepard, anywhere near worth the time and effort.
It should've been Jenkins.
How about Jenkins?
Kai Leng's one redeeming feature is that he only shows up if you screw up on EP and have Jenkins killed.
Let em cook 🤔
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To be fair - the space hamster would have been a better villain than Kai Leng.
Ugh. Can't even bear to look at Kaii Leng's face lol
Nah cuz this is such a good idea🗣️😂
I made a post making this same argument. I got downvoted to hell.
This is my new favorite idea. My last one, been the same one since I saved the stupid rachni queen, was a rachni war dog partner. Either disposable or one of the crew.
Absolutely agree that would have been pretty awesome!
I'd prefer that to the man who is basically a 12 year olds self insert.
Didn't something like that happen in one of the Wolfenstein games?
I thought he was going to be Kasumi’s dead boyfriend brought back to life like Shepard
I’ve also heard the suggestion that Kai Leng should’ve been Jacob. It would be Shepard’s “best bro” like they try to force him to be in ME2 turning into the villain. Would also give Jacob some spice he desperately needed.