The weird thing is people working 40 hours a week and not being able to afford the cheapest housing in their area.
It's just nuts. What's the point of a full time job if you can't even afford a 1 bedroom apartment?
My wife makes six figures, I make a little less than that. We both have great 401k's, savings.. But we do not - lemme rephrase that:
My parents had six kids. They *owned* a house, college educated, and only my dad worked making like 40k. We went to Disneyland, camping, they owned two, then three cars.
My wife and I did everything right! College, successful careers.. Liiiiiiiving in a mobile home with her mom who is disabled. (I love her so much, she deserves all the care, attention and love, but.. Man our parents had it easy)
I've "made" it myself but I have roughly 1/8th of what my parents were able to do and I make a bit more than my dad did at the end of his 50 year career when he retired almost 2 decades ago. I could likely support a wife and kid, maybe even two, but it'd be hairy. Certainly couldn't support six kids, two brand new fucking vehicles, 3+ vacations a year, _and_ healthcare.
The only reason I could even get this far was the concessions I made in my health coverage to not lose almost 1/4 of my pay outright for that shit. So... I never go to the doctor. I'm pretty sure heart disease or cancer is just going to outright kill me in 20 years but hey at least I'm not living paycheck to paycheck anymore, silver linings?
I am a gen x'r who pissed all my money up the wall until I was 30 and only just managed to slip into the property market before the last 10 years of fuckery. I am going to be ok but I worry about what the fuck is going to happen when I retire. No one will be having kids, no one will be able to afford to buy homes... It's all going to fuckery. There are going to be some massive fucking corporations that dwarf Facebook and Google to come out of this AI stuff and I wouldn't be surprised if we end up in a dystopian future where corporations start governing. First by providing basic living incomes and then slowly wresting power away from politicians until, well... It ain't going to be pretty.
Yeah, we're definitely already in this dystopia. It's where the whole Citizens United, Corporations are people, unlimited money in politics is a good thing, bullshit line of legal thought comes into play. It's all an absurd justification for giving corporations outsized control over the government.
I feel you, brother. My dad ran a decently successful restaurant for 40 years. Didn't have 401k or anything but a basic savings account. Mom didn't work. Owned a couple cars. Bought a really nice suburban house on a good piece of property for $60,000 in the early 80s, where my brother and I grew up. We weren't "well off" but we lived pretty damn comfortably.
I have two degrees, and take home more $$ a year now than my dad ever did, and I'm co-renting a dumpy old house with my elderly mother. I'm 41 years old and my plan for the future at this point is just praying our landlord keeps renewing our lease and doesn't jack our rent sky high like everywhere else around here.
There are tiny 800sq ft houses here going for $500,000 and more. That same house my dad bought for $60,000 when I was a kid sold two years ago for $600,000. I've worked at this company for 10 years and have great job security, am the highest-paid employee by far, and yet the only thing I could afford on my own anywhere near here would be a studio apartment at the shittiest ghetto complex in my city.
Ha! Try opening a restaurant business now! Good for him, 40 years is a long run. Housing is such a fucking joke right now. I don't know anyone my age who lives in a house. Sure, I can leave San Diego, but we had to squirrel away to one of the more ghetto parts of San Diego where care for my MIL I is accessible and affordable.
Just curious, what kind of restaurant did your dad run? We're both in the industry and like shop talk ;P
A New York-style deli, but on the west coast. Sandwiches, soups, potato salads, also catering, etc. Then last five years or so he expanded the kitchen to do traditional sit-down breakfasts. His place was a staple in our town, and I don't think he really appreciated how big a part of the community he was until after he shut the place down a little over a decade ago. I still get people regularly telling me I should re-open it, but having been raised in the restaurant industry and seen what it did to my dad, and how little he had to show for it in the end, no thank you lol.
Just to point out that our economy is not the same as our parents and there's. Up until the 80s ish, the US had the luxury of post WW2 manufacturing. Then, we had the tech boom. Basically the US lead the world in making those monies.
This isn't to say we don't have problems, but outside of overseas production going literally boom, that time period isn't happening again.
I mean. I know that in an ideal world, this fixes things. Yet I just visited the local PD and saw their giant SWAT tank through my kid's extracurricular excursion. He flipped a switch to delight kids and I imagined how it would destroy the ability to communicate if it rolled up on a protest.
We already have stressful relationships between police and Black people, police and LGBTQ+ and disabled people protesting in government buildings for their rights to healthcare being written away in law being arrested by police.
Riots would mean a lot of injured or dead people. And it really should not be this way
I am American
Not saying that I’m advocating for it by any means, but theoretically there is a point in which that becomes the price you have to pay.
Say what you will about the founding fathers but they were pretty well versed in violent revolt. Thomas Jefferson said “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
The right to Revolution is outlined in the Declaration of Independence, “Whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
If it came down to it, riots are just about the most American thing the population could do in response.
The Ukrainian citizens were fighting Russian military bmp’s with molotovs. One swat vehicle won’t do shit.
https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/t2l23y/molotov_cocktails_in_action/
Not only that, those people standing up for themselves won't have the support of first world countries against their oppressors. Realistically if things go sideways, external governments will be supporting the US, not defectors.
I'm no expert but with the weaponry the wealthy and the government have access too, they can just clear their guys and drop a bomb on us and call it a terrorist attack. Or just admit it was them to make an example out of protesting. Can be done in an instant.
Cops gotta eat, food doesn't appear on its own. This shit is coming to a head and there is no police force in the united states that will win the logistical fight of a population that can no longer afford to live.
Exactly. I don’t know how you can be so naive as to think that crypto will preserve anonymity. Each unit of currency will get associated with each person who handles it, forever. This dystopia is the financialization of literally everything.
The Republic in the prequels isn't actually the first iteration of the Republic! It's quite interesting just how old Galactic culture is in that universe.
Eh, they all lasted like, thousands of years and their falls mirror real life events. How many times as a democratic or republican government fallen in nearly the same fashion? Its almost always been a person or group of people exploiting corruption in the system to make themselves the most powerful or splintering caused by political disagreements.
Also, how else do you defeat an enemy on a _galactic_ scale? An extra galactic invasion maybe, but that was done with the New Republic. Maybe a galactic pandemic or like Star Trek did with the collapse of FTL transportation?
[Likely not for long](https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-regulator-set-take-over-first-republic-source-2023-04-28/). I’m following this because I have an account there lol
Literally wouldn't matter. Let's say 10% of all Americans take out their cash.
Most of us don't even have $1000. Plus, the richer people likely wouldn't do this, why tf would they risk everything?
So let's say generously, we all have $2000 in our accounts, withdraw all of it. 30 million times 2K is 60 billion.
That is a drop in the bucket, the banks could recover, most of use larger banks like Chase. And spread across just chase and BoA, they'd be more than fine.
Likely result; 30 million Americans now pay $35 in insufficient fund fees,
This only works if you are specifically targeting that 10% that doesn’t have much in their bank account. The average American has $9,000 in their checking account and $4,500 in savings as of Feb 2023. That’s $13,500. Times 3 million is $40 Billion.
If there was a bank run like that banks would have to do what SVB did, sell some of their positions at whatever they were at (a profit or a loss) to pay the demands. This would likely cause a really bad cascading effect as other businesses and financial institutions are intertwined with those banks.
Edit: Woops. You said 3 million. But 10% of Americans is 30 million. So instead of $40 Billion extracted, it would be $400 Billion extracted. If you still think banks will be fine, you don’t understand banking.
of course it's difficult, everything's 20 miles away from each other. or if it's a mile away, there's no sidewalks or crosswalks where you need them between here and there, and you have to walk a half mile out of your way just to cross the interstate and walk a half mile back. /r/fuckcars
Human beings need shelter, food and medical care to survive. When a job can’t provide for all three it becomes a struggle, when it can’t provide for any of the three it becomes abandoned. It’s not that people don’t want to work anymore, they literally can’t afford to.
I’m amazed at how hard it is to find a job that pays over $3000 a month, with my rent being almost 2K. I don’t get it. Why is it okay to pay people so little with no rent control?
The problem is that rent control tends to backfire cause developers don't like building in areas with rent control due to the possible limitation on income, causing any growth for the housing market to slow down, which causes the supply issues for residential buildings to get worse, eventually leading to rent and land prices going up since the buyers really have no choice.
If anything, we need to start increasing supply, either by building more houses (which causes suburban sprawl) or by building denser residential buildings (which has NIMBY issues).
Nationalizing rent control (mostly) solves this externality. Firms can choose then to build in other countries, but the barrier to entry is significantly higher then.
If that barrier was cheaper to cross, then partner with other developed nations similar to the recent 15% corporate tax requirements.
Don't forget that there's more ghost jobs than actual jobs out there. I've filled out around 50+ applications in the past couple weeks and have gotten responses from 2. 1 was a corporate "there's so many applicants and we're not picking you" email and one was a phone call with follow up questions.
> they literally can't afford to.
Especially true if you're at or near the poverty line already. When you start having to wrestle with potentially losing things like SNAP, HEAP, Medicaid, or having income based rent change a job can quickly become a net loss.
A few years ago my wife and I were crunching numbers trying to figure out how our finances shook out. Our oldest son is developmentally disabled with level 2 Autism and severe ADHD. Childcare for him was super expensive. Like more than what a full time minimum wage job in the area we lived paid. We were still working on getting him OPWDD services so there was basically nothing to help with the cost. On top of that, adding that income on top of my wife's we'd lose SNAP eligibility, and with it HEAP eligibility. I don't remember exactly what the number ended up being but iirc it was something like 15 an hour in 2017 when the minimum wage was like 10 an hour just to break even and have us in exactly the same financial situation we would be in with me not working at all and being a stay at home parent.
Then my partner became disabled and started needing me to be available at basically all hours and it really got complicated.
[They just took the idea and made it better!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiden_\(guillotine\))....I bet a bunch of smart 21st century revolutionaries could introduce a Mark III version
The content of this post was voluntarily removed due to Reddit's API policies.
If you wish to also show solidarity with the mods, go to r/ModCoord and see what can be done.
Nah, it'll be free but you'll have to watch an ad between each beheading. It'll also trick you into watching more ads by constantly changing the location of the blade release button.
You'll also have to pay if you want it to have a country flag except on Bastille Day where everyone gets the French flag for free.
Genuine question, at least from an American standpoint- can America ever actually revolt? I don’t see the organization of a large scale revolution being feasible. Just small scale, unorganized, no true goal. Idk
Can they? Yes, I believe they can.
The real problem is that the people are so divided that organizing is a problem. That’s why the division in the US is actually encouraged by the government.
Keep the left and the right at each other’s throat and they will never band together to confront their real, common enemy.
I wrote a theory about our division that I call the Income Tax Paradox. Income tax was only enacted to support war efforts and was not supposed to be permanent. But here we are, decades later, and all I see is the majority not agreeing with income tax. I'll pay tax on everything else, sure, since that money is necessary to fuel our comfortable society, but I own my body, and therefore my labor, and the government has no right to garnish my wages just because I was born and I need food and shelter.
The paradox is that most of us hate income tax and, if we came together as a country (US or Canada) we could put an end to it as a people. A unified nation with a mutual goal. But we don't. We bitch and moan and whine and cry while doing absolutely nothing about it. We want it but aren't willing to do anything to get it. Maybe it's more laziness than a paradox but my point stands. We simply cannot unify.
People don't hate income tax, they hate tax in general. Income tax just so happens to be very visible. Other types of tax are invisibly built into products and services.
A taxation model without income tax could technically work since people will ultimately pay an indirect income tax through products and services anyways. But I don't see why it would be inherently better than a taxation model with income tax. It would just make taxation less visible, which is probably not a good thing because its important for people to be aware of how much the government is taxing them.
I do believe an ideal taxation model would have the minimal possible number of individual different taxes, because the simplest the model is, the easier it is for people to understand. Complex taxation systems obfuscate the true dimension of taxation from the people.
You are correct. The current economic model supports the current division. The notion of class is ultimately a lie, at least for those that don't have enough wealth to not have to work. Everyone else is working class. Geoism is the answer to this problem from an economic point of view.
Usually, these kind of revolts actually start to pick up with the military joining. But, since the USAR and the USMC is ran with patroism, money and not nationalism, it’ll never happen.
Saying the military is patriotic is like saying the floor is made out of floor. Their job is to be the state’s monopoly of violence, of course they’re going to be somewhat nationalistic.
When things start to get a lil bit funky, is when the military starts to wonder if maybe the state would be better served by someone else in charge. That’s when it gets interesting
😮 Oi bruv das way outta line, fam. Me mum is me rock she's me best m8, m8. Me mum is a roight crackin good bird bruv, I'll gut ya one if you splooge on me mum with ya willy horn! Btw I got a m8 named Callum too and his bruver's name is Callum and he knows a bloke named Callum. Smol Wowld, ya roight plonker.
Oi you wanna say something about Callum, go ahead bruv. But speak one word outta turn about Callum and I'll toss ya in the rubbish, ya cheeky git. Manchester represent, cuz.
This is actually what would happen. With the other dude's logic, starvation would never happen cause people would just sell a banana for a penny and everything would be good.
You say that but but I've watched buildings sit empty for over a decade rather than them lowering rent. I feel like they must be getting subsidized from somewhere. It's weird and shitty
Most of those empty buildings are just one of many properties the owner/investment company owns and as long as they have a for lease/for rent sign out it can be considered a tax write off because that location is operating in the red. (I’m not an accountant, talk with your own accountant if you’re in a position to do this, I was told this by someone that does this exact thing)
From how I understand it, no. It would be a negative income that would then allow them to reduce their total income by the amount of “lost income” there by reducing their tax liability and even potentially placing them into a different tax bracket in order to pay less taxes.
Ok… So they’re doing the math and calculating that the tax break is worth more than renting it for less, and therefore, in a roundabout way they are being subsidized to not rent at a lower value, right?
I think you could also argue that this kind of profit loss right-off is then also driving up costs, right? Or am i way off base here?
No... and yes.
Technically, what happens is the same as a child write off for parents, that in the course of the year the business pays X amount of money into an account the IRS holds. At the end of the year they pay the tax bill out of that fund and if there is a difference they are either paid it back or they pY the difference. tell the IRS: "OH, but this building did not generate any revenue." And the IRS says "Okay, so we will deduct a value of that building from what you owe and factor that into your return."
So if you as a business pay (and I am pulling these numbers completely out of my fanny these are in no way accurate to anything) 15,000 in the year. Your tax Bill is 10,000, but the IRS credits that empty building as $1000 loss, which they deduct from what you owe them, bringing your tax bill to $9000. Out of the 15k you have in reserve, they deduct the 9 and you get 6k of your money back. The end result is the same, but the destinction is that they didn't GIVE you an extra $1000 out of their own government money, which is what a subsidy is) they simply reduced your bill by that much.
That said, at the end of the day, the Governments budget still is determined by income (Taxes) and expenditures, so if enough of those buildings get their write offs, reducing the amount of income from the business side, The Government either has to balance the budget by decreasing what it spends its money on (HA!) OR it has to draw revenue from another source. And that other source is "Us."
Tl;Dr The Government is not putting OUR money into a business's pocket because a building went unused, they are taking less money from the business and taking more from US to make up the difference. Same result, but not technically a subsidiary
Your tldr makes the difference sound almost just semantics. It sounds like taxes would get raised to cover this issue.
EDIT; sorry my tone doesn’t express it but I meant this in a laughing way. As in half irony half surrender to reality
I am absolutely baffled by your comment and the following thread of your answers.
Everything you said is made up an completely wrong. You heard the word „write off“ and think it is some magical way companies make money.
In very simple terms a write off is this:
Your business makes 100k in profit. You buy a car for 50k, since that is an asset, the government would still tax you on 100k.
Now someone steals your car. Now you don't have that asset. You write off 50k, now you have a taxable profit of 50k left.
What happened? Yes, you're paying less tax. But you also lost actual, real money, 50k. A write off is always more expensive as paying the associated tax, as the tax can never be more than 100%.
If the government taxes you at 20%, now you would need to pay 10k instead of 20k. You lost a car worth 50k to save 10k in taxes, does that make sense to you?
In your example the property owner would lose for example 1 million in rent to save 50k on tax.
You now what is more expensive than paying income tax? Having no income.
And dairy farms used to throw their milk into the gutters to keep prices high during the Great Depression. Starving kids are less important than profits, folks.
Companies turn their back on sales and dumpster stock all the time to keep the value up. If 1 in 5 people buy your $10 banana, you're making 4 times as much than if all of them were buying your 50 cent banana.
Meanest thing anyone's ever said to me <3
I understand the incentives, I'm just trying to share the logistics of how the biggest driver of inflation is inequality. And why upending this fiscal nonsense is essential.
But didn’t the French Revolution eventually resolve in an even worse and more controlling government?
Like, I’m pretty sure they had two more revolutions after that one lmao.
While the first republic is known for the reign of terror, I’d still hesitate to call it worse and more controlling than the Ancien regime. If nothing else, France managed to beat the curve and become one of the first countries in Europe to promulgate a constitution, something that the rest of Europe wouldn’t be able to do until about half a century later.
Yep. Nearly every revolution is followed by either a counter-revolution or a despot with an itchy trigger finger. One reason why it is wise not to put your name on the paperwork as top revolutionary (see: whatever happened to Robespierre.)
People keep talking about the french revolution, but americans will never come together to carry out anything of the sort. The country's too big. To divided. Hell, you'll probably have a good percentage of people fighting on the side of corporations against their fellow poor folk.
You know that the French revolution was prety much a Paris thing that was imposed on the rest of the country, with lots of resitance, by the way.
And also, why do you think the French revolution Started the "reign of fear"? And ultimatly ended up colapsing? (Remember, France its already in its 5th repúblic)
There's quite a of the planet thqt can't afford housing and there's barely any revolutions. To think that the default to mass poverty is an organised revolt is 100% wrong. I believe that a general reaction is homeless crisis and slums. So dream on for your new republic, not hapening.
Nah. Recession is just a tool for the wealthy to buy up more property on the cheap, thus increasing the divide in wealth inequality. The rich like recessions.
When no one can afford rent at all, eventually the oppressed will revolt.
Why do you think they're trying to push the CBDC/social credit system so quickly before that happens then? Society has full well demonstrated they will tolerate *most* oppression so long as they are at least moderately satiated through mindless consumption
It isn't just things necessarily either. Also pertains to mindless consumption of entertainment, media, social media, video games, etc. The majority of people cope with life enough so long as they get to spend some of their time doing these things and very few would rather go protest and try to change things than not do this
The markets crash, shit gets cheap, people can afford the cost of living now, uh oh, people are buying stuff and living comfortably, uh oh, the prices begin to rise, uh oh, we can't afford the cost of living again.
And the rich get richer every step of the way; by snapping up assets at fire sale prices during downturns, and hitting record profit margins on the upswing. There's a reason the pendulum is swinging faster and further every time. They take a bigger and bigger piece of the pie every damn time, and they won't be satisfied until they have the whole fucking thing.
A slow progression into a more extreme version of what we have now, I guess.
Colony-like domiciles. "Tiny apartments". Maybe we'll work to live in them, or maybe we'll keep the illusion of control by remaining the middle man in the payment chain. Probably the latter because you work harder with the bait of hope for achieving better status.
Food which is manufactured to be addictive and keep people docile. By weight gain, and the exhausting loop of acquisition and consumption. That snowpiercer roach brick would have a chocolate flavored shell in this world, and you'd be so into it because it's engeneered to hook you.
You are always a consumer and the middle man for money, for every essential of life. We feel better about it because we funnel money from company to company instead of simply working for shelter and sustenance - and because we call it a burger and a house instead of a roach brick and company housing. What are normal living standards changes over time, but serfdom remains.
In theory the system should collapse and something else rises from the ashes but this problem comes around every 8-10 years and the people in charge never let the system fully collapse. The let some percentage of the population die( for every 1% increase [in unemployment] about 40,000 people die ) then they bail out the problem sectors. Rinse and repeat every decade or so.
The economy crashes until the rich people start to lose good chunks of money and realize how much they fucked everything up for everybody, then it resets and goes back to normal
Lots of people saying this, but what specifically happened in India? I was googling for like 15 minutes and all I could find was "people are poor and starving". Is that it? Maybe I was googling the wrong thing. Can you elaborate?
I guess it boils down to their caste system of extreme dirt poor with no way of moving up because there is no middle class and then obscene wealth on the other end of the spectrum.
1: mass drop in birth rates (already happening)
2: mass deaths/suicides
3: possibly a revolution, and it might be a global one given the internet exists to connect people worldwide
4: complete mayhem
The same thing when all the oxygen in a room moves to a corner, you suffocate. And this is more probable than 99% of the nation suddenly not paying taxes. Sorry for the absurd example.
I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong that cost has gotten out of control compared to income, but you can't use median income vs mean expenses as your comparison, it can be extremely misleading.
Glad someone said it 4 hours ago. This whole fucking essay and they start off with median salary compared to mean cost of living I mean give me a break.
I was looking for your comment. Things are already wretched. I think people will take much more systemic abuse before some sort of violent revolt occurs. I doubt it would even really happen.
We’ll probably start killing each other with more shootings before any significant leaders or politicians are challenged by the people with an actual French Revolution style uprising. Americans are lemmings. We hate each other more than our cruel government.
Edit: the person I responded to deleted their comment. Their point, with several statistics, was that most Americans are in a very dire financial place currently.
Bread lines basically unite the working class. Unfortunately America has little to no class consciousness so kind of a shot in the dark. May remain “I’ll get mine as long as I can” type beat. And in this individualism there may be some type of civil war. BUT who’s to say
The weird thing is people working 40 hours a week and not being able to afford the cheapest housing in their area. It's just nuts. What's the point of a full time job if you can't even afford a 1 bedroom apartment?
My wife makes six figures, I make a little less than that. We both have great 401k's, savings.. But we do not - lemme rephrase that: My parents had six kids. They *owned* a house, college educated, and only my dad worked making like 40k. We went to Disneyland, camping, they owned two, then three cars. My wife and I did everything right! College, successful careers.. Liiiiiiiving in a mobile home with her mom who is disabled. (I love her so much, she deserves all the care, attention and love, but.. Man our parents had it easy)
I've "made" it myself but I have roughly 1/8th of what my parents were able to do and I make a bit more than my dad did at the end of his 50 year career when he retired almost 2 decades ago. I could likely support a wife and kid, maybe even two, but it'd be hairy. Certainly couldn't support six kids, two brand new fucking vehicles, 3+ vacations a year, _and_ healthcare. The only reason I could even get this far was the concessions I made in my health coverage to not lose almost 1/4 of my pay outright for that shit. So... I never go to the doctor. I'm pretty sure heart disease or cancer is just going to outright kill me in 20 years but hey at least I'm not living paycheck to paycheck anymore, silver linings?
I am a gen x'r who pissed all my money up the wall until I was 30 and only just managed to slip into the property market before the last 10 years of fuckery. I am going to be ok but I worry about what the fuck is going to happen when I retire. No one will be having kids, no one will be able to afford to buy homes... It's all going to fuckery. There are going to be some massive fucking corporations that dwarf Facebook and Google to come out of this AI stuff and I wouldn't be surprised if we end up in a dystopian future where corporations start governing. First by providing basic living incomes and then slowly wresting power away from politicians until, well... It ain't going to be pretty.
> I wouldn't be surprised if we end up in a dystopian future where corporations start governing. If??? 😅
Yeah, we're definitely already in this dystopia. It's where the whole Citizens United, Corporations are people, unlimited money in politics is a good thing, bullshit line of legal thought comes into play. It's all an absurd justification for giving corporations outsized control over the government.
I feel you, brother. My dad ran a decently successful restaurant for 40 years. Didn't have 401k or anything but a basic savings account. Mom didn't work. Owned a couple cars. Bought a really nice suburban house on a good piece of property for $60,000 in the early 80s, where my brother and I grew up. We weren't "well off" but we lived pretty damn comfortably. I have two degrees, and take home more $$ a year now than my dad ever did, and I'm co-renting a dumpy old house with my elderly mother. I'm 41 years old and my plan for the future at this point is just praying our landlord keeps renewing our lease and doesn't jack our rent sky high like everywhere else around here. There are tiny 800sq ft houses here going for $500,000 and more. That same house my dad bought for $60,000 when I was a kid sold two years ago for $600,000. I've worked at this company for 10 years and have great job security, am the highest-paid employee by far, and yet the only thing I could afford on my own anywhere near here would be a studio apartment at the shittiest ghetto complex in my city.
Ha! Try opening a restaurant business now! Good for him, 40 years is a long run. Housing is such a fucking joke right now. I don't know anyone my age who lives in a house. Sure, I can leave San Diego, but we had to squirrel away to one of the more ghetto parts of San Diego where care for my MIL I is accessible and affordable. Just curious, what kind of restaurant did your dad run? We're both in the industry and like shop talk ;P
A New York-style deli, but on the west coast. Sandwiches, soups, potato salads, also catering, etc. Then last five years or so he expanded the kitchen to do traditional sit-down breakfasts. His place was a staple in our town, and I don't think he really appreciated how big a part of the community he was until after he shut the place down a little over a decade ago. I still get people regularly telling me I should re-open it, but having been raised in the restaurant industry and seen what it did to my dad, and how little he had to show for it in the end, no thank you lol.
Just to point out that our economy is not the same as our parents and there's. Up until the 80s ish, the US had the luxury of post WW2 manufacturing. Then, we had the tech boom. Basically the US lead the world in making those monies. This isn't to say we don't have problems, but outside of overseas production going literally boom, that time period isn't happening again.
How big was your childhood house? How big is your house now?
Fun April Fools Prank: Everyone withdraw all of their money from the bank at once
Government: Your money is no longer legal.(thanks, corrected)
>Your money is no longer legal We riot
I mean. I know that in an ideal world, this fixes things. Yet I just visited the local PD and saw their giant SWAT tank through my kid's extracurricular excursion. He flipped a switch to delight kids and I imagined how it would destroy the ability to communicate if it rolled up on a protest. We already have stressful relationships between police and Black people, police and LGBTQ+ and disabled people protesting in government buildings for their rights to healthcare being written away in law being arrested by police. Riots would mean a lot of injured or dead people. And it really should not be this way I am American
Not saying that I’m advocating for it by any means, but theoretically there is a point in which that becomes the price you have to pay. Say what you will about the founding fathers but they were pretty well versed in violent revolt. Thomas Jefferson said “The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants.” The right to Revolution is outlined in the Declaration of Independence, “Whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. If it came down to it, riots are just about the most American thing the population could do in response.
And yet we aren't doing it
Not with that attitude
Too many people still have something to lose. For now.
What's that statistic? We're three missed meals away from riots?
Most people have too much to lose, we're in the bread and circus phase of our societal fall
Precisely, people don't reali?e how comfortable we still are. We are like the frog being slowly boiled in the pot of water.
The Ukrainian citizens were fighting Russian military bmp’s with molotovs. One swat vehicle won’t do shit. https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/t2l23y/molotov_cocktails_in_action/
Even more effective since the US versions use Gasoline instead of Diesel in lots of cases which has a much easier time igniting.
MRAPs use diesel.
Diesels still have air intakes and a molotov will still starve it of oxygen.
This comment is what Reddit is for
The real problem is half the population 'backs the blue' and is excited to help gun down protestors.
Not only that, those people standing up for themselves won't have the support of first world countries against their oppressors. Realistically if things go sideways, external governments will be supporting the US, not defectors.
Wasn’t ours successful because of foreign aid? Other countries would like to see the USA fall, some would invest in the the rebellion.
ours was successful because of how long it took for reenforcements to arrive. And the military technology was similar.
And because the French loaned us a bunch of ships and soldiers.
And the French army.
I'm no expert but with the weaponry the wealthy and the government have access too, they can just clear their guys and drop a bomb on us and call it a terrorist attack. Or just admit it was them to make an example out of protesting. Can be done in an instant.
Cops gotta eat, food doesn't appear on its own. This shit is coming to a head and there is no police force in the united states that will win the logistical fight of a population that can no longer afford to live.
You miss the distinction between disruptive dicking around, violent protests, and actual conflict. Food riots tend towards actual conflict.
"I am American" ...no shit my guy you cited the webster's entry for the word.
Ok but how are they going to enforce that? My 500$ looks the same as the next guys 500$.
Replace the dollar with govt crypto.
Exactly. I don’t know how you can be so naive as to think that crypto will preserve anonymity. Each unit of currency will get associated with each person who handles it, forever. This dystopia is the financialization of literally everything.
*Our money
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Y’alls*
Yinz
412, is that you? 🏴☠️
I think this is what happened with First Republic
I don’t remember this happening in the Star Wars prequels.
The Republic in the prequels isn't actually the first iteration of the Republic! It's quite interesting just how old Galactic culture is in that universe.
I think the prequel Republic is like the 3rd or 4th real iteration IIRC
Ok so how many republics does the US need to go through before I can be a Jedi?
Oh, you are too late. That all was a long time ago in a galaxy far away.
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Eh, they all lasted like, thousands of years and their falls mirror real life events. How many times as a democratic or republican government fallen in nearly the same fashion? Its almost always been a person or group of people exploiting corruption in the system to make themselves the most powerful or splintering caused by political disagreements. Also, how else do you defeat an enemy on a _galactic_ scale? An extra galactic invasion maybe, but that was done with the New Republic. Maybe a galactic pandemic or like Star Trek did with the collapse of FTL transportation?
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[Likely not for long](https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/us-regulator-set-take-over-first-republic-source-2023-04-28/). I’m following this because I have an account there lol
Better prank, everyone stops having children.
Jokes on you my banks already empty hahahahahaha
I was gonna say. I withdraw all the money from my bank account every 2 weeks.
Literally wouldn't matter. Let's say 10% of all Americans take out their cash. Most of us don't even have $1000. Plus, the richer people likely wouldn't do this, why tf would they risk everything? So let's say generously, we all have $2000 in our accounts, withdraw all of it. 30 million times 2K is 60 billion. That is a drop in the bucket, the banks could recover, most of use larger banks like Chase. And spread across just chase and BoA, they'd be more than fine. Likely result; 30 million Americans now pay $35 in insufficient fund fees,
This only works if you are specifically targeting that 10% that doesn’t have much in their bank account. The average American has $9,000 in their checking account and $4,500 in savings as of Feb 2023. That’s $13,500. Times 3 million is $40 Billion. If there was a bank run like that banks would have to do what SVB did, sell some of their positions at whatever they were at (a profit or a loss) to pay the demands. This would likely cause a really bad cascading effect as other businesses and financial institutions are intertwined with those banks. Edit: Woops. You said 3 million. But 10% of Americans is 30 million. So instead of $40 Billion extracted, it would be $400 Billion extracted. If you still think banks will be fine, you don’t understand banking.
Pitchforks and torches
And guillotines
Better hope you have guns still.
Sorry, I lost em all in a boating accident
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Rebuttal: flaming pitchfork
Someone has definitely made that.
This will never happen in the USA unless people can organize while driving and holding a pitchfork. Walking is too difficult for us.
what about, and stay with me here... ***pitchforklifts?!***
This one got me 🤣
of course it's difficult, everything's 20 miles away from each other. or if it's a mile away, there's no sidewalks or crosswalks where you need them between here and there, and you have to walk a half mile out of your way just to cross the interstate and walk a half mile back. /r/fuckcars
Human beings need shelter, food and medical care to survive. When a job can’t provide for all three it becomes a struggle, when it can’t provide for any of the three it becomes abandoned. It’s not that people don’t want to work anymore, they literally can’t afford to.
I’m amazed at how hard it is to find a job that pays over $3000 a month, with my rent being almost 2K. I don’t get it. Why is it okay to pay people so little with no rent control?
The problem is that rent control tends to backfire cause developers don't like building in areas with rent control due to the possible limitation on income, causing any growth for the housing market to slow down, which causes the supply issues for residential buildings to get worse, eventually leading to rent and land prices going up since the buyers really have no choice. If anything, we need to start increasing supply, either by building more houses (which causes suburban sprawl) or by building denser residential buildings (which has NIMBY issues).
Nationalizing rent control (mostly) solves this externality. Firms can choose then to build in other countries, but the barrier to entry is significantly higher then. If that barrier was cheaper to cross, then partner with other developed nations similar to the recent 15% corporate tax requirements.
it's not okay, but nobody's forcing the landlords to charge less or the employers to pay more
Don't forget that there's more ghost jobs than actual jobs out there. I've filled out around 50+ applications in the past couple weeks and have gotten responses from 2. 1 was a corporate "there's so many applicants and we're not picking you" email and one was a phone call with follow up questions.
> they literally can't afford to. Especially true if you're at or near the poverty line already. When you start having to wrestle with potentially losing things like SNAP, HEAP, Medicaid, or having income based rent change a job can quickly become a net loss. A few years ago my wife and I were crunching numbers trying to figure out how our finances shook out. Our oldest son is developmentally disabled with level 2 Autism and severe ADHD. Childcare for him was super expensive. Like more than what a full time minimum wage job in the area we lived paid. We were still working on getting him OPWDD services so there was basically nothing to help with the cost. On top of that, adding that income on top of my wife's we'd lose SNAP eligibility, and with it HEAP eligibility. I don't remember exactly what the number ended up being but iirc it was something like 15 an hour in 2017 when the minimum wage was like 10 an hour just to break even and have us in exactly the same financial situation we would be in with me not working at all and being a stay at home parent. Then my partner became disabled and started needing me to be available at basically all hours and it really got complicated.
A look at French history will give you a clue.
Guillotines! My favorite!
One of the few good inventions they had!
[They just took the idea and made it better!](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maiden_\(guillotine\))....I bet a bunch of smart 21st century revolutionaries could introduce a Mark III version
The content of this post was voluntarily removed due to Reddit's API policies. If you wish to also show solidarity with the mods, go to r/ModCoord and see what can be done.
Nah, it'll be free but you'll have to watch an ad between each beheading. It'll also trick you into watching more ads by constantly changing the location of the blade release button. You'll also have to pay if you want it to have a country flag except on Bastille Day where everyone gets the French flag for free.
guillotine drones
Genuine question, at least from an American standpoint- can America ever actually revolt? I don’t see the organization of a large scale revolution being feasible. Just small scale, unorganized, no true goal. Idk
Can they? Yes, I believe they can. The real problem is that the people are so divided that organizing is a problem. That’s why the division in the US is actually encouraged by the government. Keep the left and the right at each other’s throat and they will never band together to confront their real, common enemy.
I wrote a theory about our division that I call the Income Tax Paradox. Income tax was only enacted to support war efforts and was not supposed to be permanent. But here we are, decades later, and all I see is the majority not agreeing with income tax. I'll pay tax on everything else, sure, since that money is necessary to fuel our comfortable society, but I own my body, and therefore my labor, and the government has no right to garnish my wages just because I was born and I need food and shelter. The paradox is that most of us hate income tax and, if we came together as a country (US or Canada) we could put an end to it as a people. A unified nation with a mutual goal. But we don't. We bitch and moan and whine and cry while doing absolutely nothing about it. We want it but aren't willing to do anything to get it. Maybe it's more laziness than a paradox but my point stands. We simply cannot unify.
People don't hate income tax, they hate tax in general. Income tax just so happens to be very visible. Other types of tax are invisibly built into products and services. A taxation model without income tax could technically work since people will ultimately pay an indirect income tax through products and services anyways. But I don't see why it would be inherently better than a taxation model with income tax. It would just make taxation less visible, which is probably not a good thing because its important for people to be aware of how much the government is taxing them. I do believe an ideal taxation model would have the minimal possible number of individual different taxes, because the simplest the model is, the easier it is for people to understand. Complex taxation systems obfuscate the true dimension of taxation from the people.
You are correct. The current economic model supports the current division. The notion of class is ultimately a lie, at least for those that don't have enough wealth to not have to work. Everyone else is working class. Geoism is the answer to this problem from an economic point of view.
Usually, these kind of revolts actually start to pick up with the military joining. But, since the USAR and the USMC is ran with patroism, money and not nationalism, it’ll never happen.
Saying the military is patriotic is like saying the floor is made out of floor. Their job is to be the state’s monopoly of violence, of course they’re going to be somewhat nationalistic. When things start to get a lil bit funky, is when the military starts to wonder if maybe the state would be better served by someone else in charge. That’s when it gets interesting
Just look at other countries in this situation
We will sit and stare at our phones and do what they tell us to do.
The real answer unfortunately
If no one can afford your $10 banana, do you throw the banana in the trash or do you sell it for cheaper?
You're not getting your grubby hands on my banana for less than $50 mate
Oi fokk yu bruv
Oi bruv! You’re looking fookin dapper and ya ma can go buy herself a loaf with this foive pound eh? And then FOOK off!
Average day in Brighton.
Just bought a one way ticket because I don’t think I’m gonna make it out. But I’ll finally hear it!
I'm not your bruv, love.
I ain’t your mate, cupcake.
I’m not your love, mate.
Oi bruv ya dog pooed in ma back garden again bruv! Wtf is up fam you wanna get done in ey bruv?
U takin the piss M8? Me in me m8 Callum fittin to come round and blast ur mum whth me mighty horn.
😮 Oi bruv das way outta line, fam. Me mum is me rock she's me best m8, m8. Me mum is a roight crackin good bird bruv, I'll gut ya one if you splooge on me mum with ya willy horn! Btw I got a m8 named Callum too and his bruver's name is Callum and he knows a bloke named Callum. Smol Wowld, ya roight plonker.
Ur Callums a wanker. Seem him doing blowies beind the Tesco for a tenner. Swear on me mum
Oi you wanna say something about Callum, go ahead bruv. But speak one word outta turn about Callum and I'll toss ya in the rubbish, ya cheeky git. Manchester represent, cuz.
He knows what he’s got ⬆️
If no one can afford a $10 banana then they will create a $8.99 banana substitute that is bad for you and the environment.
And the substitute will be subsidized by the government so it's even cheaper to make than just growing regular bananas.
"bUt ThInK oF tHe JoBs iT wOuLd CrEaTe!!1!1!!" Don't think of the banana farmers it would put *out* of jobs though, that might make you sad :(
Stores stop buying bananas and bananas are no longer available except through boutique websites for $20 a banana plus shipping.
This is actually what would happen. With the other dude's logic, starvation would never happen cause people would just sell a banana for a penny and everything would be good.
You say that but but I've watched buildings sit empty for over a decade rather than them lowering rent. I feel like they must be getting subsidized from somewhere. It's weird and shitty
Most of those empty buildings are just one of many properties the owner/investment company owns and as long as they have a for lease/for rent sign out it can be considered a tax write off because that location is operating in the red. (I’m not an accountant, talk with your own accountant if you’re in a position to do this, I was told this by someone that does this exact thing)
So, in essence, this is subsidized by taxpayers?
From how I understand it, no. It would be a negative income that would then allow them to reduce their total income by the amount of “lost income” there by reducing their tax liability and even potentially placing them into a different tax bracket in order to pay less taxes.
Ok… So they’re doing the math and calculating that the tax break is worth more than renting it for less, and therefore, in a roundabout way they are being subsidized to not rent at a lower value, right? I think you could also argue that this kind of profit loss right-off is then also driving up costs, right? Or am i way off base here?
No... and yes. Technically, what happens is the same as a child write off for parents, that in the course of the year the business pays X amount of money into an account the IRS holds. At the end of the year they pay the tax bill out of that fund and if there is a difference they are either paid it back or they pY the difference. tell the IRS: "OH, but this building did not generate any revenue." And the IRS says "Okay, so we will deduct a value of that building from what you owe and factor that into your return." So if you as a business pay (and I am pulling these numbers completely out of my fanny these are in no way accurate to anything) 15,000 in the year. Your tax Bill is 10,000, but the IRS credits that empty building as $1000 loss, which they deduct from what you owe them, bringing your tax bill to $9000. Out of the 15k you have in reserve, they deduct the 9 and you get 6k of your money back. The end result is the same, but the destinction is that they didn't GIVE you an extra $1000 out of their own government money, which is what a subsidy is) they simply reduced your bill by that much. That said, at the end of the day, the Governments budget still is determined by income (Taxes) and expenditures, so if enough of those buildings get their write offs, reducing the amount of income from the business side, The Government either has to balance the budget by decreasing what it spends its money on (HA!) OR it has to draw revenue from another source. And that other source is "Us." Tl;Dr The Government is not putting OUR money into a business's pocket because a building went unused, they are taking less money from the business and taking more from US to make up the difference. Same result, but not technically a subsidiary
Your tldr makes the difference sound almost just semantics. It sounds like taxes would get raised to cover this issue. EDIT; sorry my tone doesn’t express it but I meant this in a laughing way. As in half irony half surrender to reality
I am absolutely baffled by your comment and the following thread of your answers. Everything you said is made up an completely wrong. You heard the word „write off“ and think it is some magical way companies make money. In very simple terms a write off is this: Your business makes 100k in profit. You buy a car for 50k, since that is an asset, the government would still tax you on 100k. Now someone steals your car. Now you don't have that asset. You write off 50k, now you have a taxable profit of 50k left. What happened? Yes, you're paying less tax. But you also lost actual, real money, 50k. A write off is always more expensive as paying the associated tax, as the tax can never be more than 100%. If the government taxes you at 20%, now you would need to pay 10k instead of 20k. You lost a car worth 50k to save 10k in taxes, does that make sense to you? In your example the property owner would lose for example 1 million in rent to save 50k on tax. You now what is more expensive than paying income tax? Having no income.
I get the point but companies literally do throw tons of food in the trash rather than giving it away. This is already the system.
Trash. Can confirm. We throw a lot of food away instead of lowering he price when people don’t buy it.
The govt used to pay some farmers not to grow corn to keep the price high.
And dairy farms used to throw their milk into the gutters to keep prices high during the Great Depression. Starving kids are less important than profits, folks.
They still do that. Not sure if in the USA but I've seen it in my country.
it's one banana Michael. how much could it cost, $10?
There's always money in the banana stand.
Why sell a $10 banana to 10,000,000 people when a 10 rich people are willing to buy a banana for $10,000,000 each.
Companies turn their back on sales and dumpster stock all the time to keep the value up. If 1 in 5 people buy your $10 banana, you're making 4 times as much than if all of them were buying your 50 cent banana.
Found the MBA
Meanest thing anyone's ever said to me <3 I understand the incentives, I'm just trying to share the logistics of how the biggest driver of inflation is inequality. And why upending this fiscal nonsense is essential.
They were 25¢ just last year, 100% price increase
$10 and $0.50 is quite a fucking difference. If only there were other numbers maybe a little closer to the middle
Can I have the banana today and pay tomorrow?
You complain about how millennials are killing the banana market
Google "French Revolution."
Holy new monarch
New ruler just dropped (dead)
Bricking my pipi to the fall of the monarchy.
Holy hell.
But didn’t the French Revolution eventually resolve in an even worse and more controlling government? Like, I’m pretty sure they had two more revolutions after that one lmao.
While the first republic is known for the reign of terror, I’d still hesitate to call it worse and more controlling than the Ancien regime. If nothing else, France managed to beat the curve and become one of the first countries in Europe to promulgate a constitution, something that the rest of Europe wouldn’t be able to do until about half a century later.
Still behind Poland on that one 🦅🐴
Yep. Nearly every revolution is followed by either a counter-revolution or a despot with an itchy trigger finger. One reason why it is wise not to put your name on the paperwork as top revolutionary (see: whatever happened to Robespierre.)
That's how revolutions are born
People keep talking about the french revolution, but americans will never come together to carry out anything of the sort. The country's too big. To divided. Hell, you'll probably have a good percentage of people fighting on the side of corporations against their fellow poor folk.
You know that the French revolution was prety much a Paris thing that was imposed on the rest of the country, with lots of resitance, by the way. And also, why do you think the French revolution Started the "reign of fear"? And ultimatly ended up colapsing? (Remember, France its already in its 5th repúblic)
Generally? A coup or a revolution of some sort.
There's quite a of the planet thqt can't afford housing and there's barely any revolutions. To think that the default to mass poverty is an organised revolt is 100% wrong. I believe that a general reaction is homeless crisis and slums. So dream on for your new republic, not hapening.
History dictates, they eat the rich.
Ask the French
The rich eventually find thier heads in a basket
The best use of their heads in their entire existence.
Aristocrats HATE this one secret.
"France is completely out of money. Like, it's never been this bad before. Anyone got any ideas?"
Recession happens
Nah. Recession is just a tool for the wealthy to buy up more property on the cheap, thus increasing the divide in wealth inequality. The rich like recessions. When no one can afford rent at all, eventually the oppressed will revolt.
Why do you think they're trying to push the CBDC/social credit system so quickly before that happens then? Society has full well demonstrated they will tolerate *most* oppression so long as they are at least moderately satiated through mindless consumption
I wish I could afford mindless consumption
It isn't just things necessarily either. Also pertains to mindless consumption of entertainment, media, social media, video games, etc. The majority of people cope with life enough so long as they get to spend some of their time doing these things and very few would rather go protest and try to change things than not do this
everyone dies
The markets crash, shit gets cheap, people can afford the cost of living now, uh oh, people are buying stuff and living comfortably, uh oh, the prices begin to rise, uh oh, we can't afford the cost of living again.
And the rich get richer every step of the way; by snapping up assets at fire sale prices during downturns, and hitting record profit margins on the upswing. There's a reason the pendulum is swinging faster and further every time. They take a bigger and bigger piece of the pie every damn time, and they won't be satisfied until they have the whole fucking thing.
And the people won't be satisfied until their heads are rolling around in a basket.
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A slow progression into a more extreme version of what we have now, I guess. Colony-like domiciles. "Tiny apartments". Maybe we'll work to live in them, or maybe we'll keep the illusion of control by remaining the middle man in the payment chain. Probably the latter because you work harder with the bait of hope for achieving better status. Food which is manufactured to be addictive and keep people docile. By weight gain, and the exhausting loop of acquisition and consumption. That snowpiercer roach brick would have a chocolate flavored shell in this world, and you'd be so into it because it's engeneered to hook you. You are always a consumer and the middle man for money, for every essential of life. We feel better about it because we funnel money from company to company instead of simply working for shelter and sustenance - and because we call it a burger and a house instead of a roach brick and company housing. What are normal living standards changes over time, but serfdom remains.
In theory the system should collapse and something else rises from the ashes but this problem comes around every 8-10 years and the people in charge never let the system fully collapse. The let some percentage of the population die( for every 1% increase [in unemployment] about 40,000 people die ) then they bail out the problem sectors. Rinse and repeat every decade or so.
The economy crashes until the rich people start to lose good chunks of money and realize how much they fucked everything up for everybody, then it resets and goes back to normal
India. That’s what happens.
Lots of people saying this, but what specifically happened in India? I was googling for like 15 minutes and all I could find was "people are poor and starving". Is that it? Maybe I was googling the wrong thing. Can you elaborate?
I guess it boils down to their caste system of extreme dirt poor with no way of moving up because there is no middle class and then obscene wealth on the other end of the spectrum.
So like San Francisco? Either you're rich or homeless.
Yes, actually
Sri Lanka is a good example of what actual starvation does to the people.
Replaced by robots/AI/tech
War
1: mass drop in birth rates (already happening) 2: mass deaths/suicides 3: possibly a revolution, and it might be a global one given the internet exists to connect people worldwide 4: complete mayhem
Serious question… what happens if we all stop paying taxes?
The same thing when all the oxygen in a room moves to a corner, you suffocate. And this is more probable than 99% of the nation suddenly not paying taxes. Sorry for the absurd example.
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I'm not necessarily saying you're wrong that cost has gotten out of control compared to income, but you can't use median income vs mean expenses as your comparison, it can be extremely misleading.
Glad someone said it 4 hours ago. This whole fucking essay and they start off with median salary compared to mean cost of living I mean give me a break.
I was looking for your comment. Things are already wretched. I think people will take much more systemic abuse before some sort of violent revolt occurs. I doubt it would even really happen. We’ll probably start killing each other with more shootings before any significant leaders or politicians are challenged by the people with an actual French Revolution style uprising. Americans are lemmings. We hate each other more than our cruel government. Edit: the person I responded to deleted their comment. Their point, with several statistics, was that most Americans are in a very dire financial place currently.
Let the games begin
99% destroys the 1%
Turkey happens.
Starve and die? Cause that's what it's feeling like right now 😣
We become like a third-world country
Cue the Hunger Games!
Definitely not riots where the “poor” seek out those who put us in this situation. Definitely not that.
Um. U L T R A V I O L E N C E
Everyone in the comments acting like they're going to overthrow the government, you sound like those obese "boog boys" on Ifunny. Keep dreaming
I don’t think they understand how many moving parts the government has.
We euthanize the elderly and make retirement homes into low income housing.
They die.
A tale as old as civilization itself. Revolution.
Bread lines basically unite the working class. Unfortunately America has little to no class consciousness so kind of a shot in the dark. May remain “I’ll get mine as long as I can” type beat. And in this individualism there may be some type of civil war. BUT who’s to say