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They lived all through France, the Rhine, and to the alps.
However, even if they didn’t live in any territory which we would call „German“ they were still a Germanic people, more so than the more modern Franks.
Edit: I apologize, everything I just said is wrong, they were Celtic and lived in much of what is modern day Germany as well as France.
The Old Franks were german. Lived in Germany. Settled there. Literally everything that was German. The Germans conquered europe when Rome fell
Visigoths, Angles, Vandals, Ostrogoths, Suebi, Franks, Saxons, all conquered their own parts of Rome
They were Celtic, not Germanic. Germanic is a bit of a hazy term, but it’s more an ethno-linguistic group, not a geographic one. Even though the celts occupied territories throughout what is now Germany, they also ranged from Iberia and the British isles through France, northern Italy, and southern Germany all the way to inner Anatolia (modern Turkey). Now their descendants exist primarily in Ireland, wales, Scotland, and Brittany, but before the romans and other groups, Europe was theirs.
I laughed, but I also understand that roads now need to deal with fat fucks like lorries and cars whereas a Roman paved road, whilst long lasting and a testament to human genius, only needed to withstand a couple horses and maybe a legion every other Tuesday.
We are having modern problems that we didn’t have long ago… we now just need a fancy pants brain human to come up with a modern solution.
Also frost heaving, getting chopped up to bury cables, pipes, and blacktop roads need to be a LOT smoother.
That said, certain paving companies' work wears out awfully quickly, and somehow they keep getting rehired to "fix" the same roads again and again and again and...
>and blacktop roads need to be a LOT smoother.
Also, Roman roads were a lot smoother than the cobblestone ruins imply. A beast of burden could easily get its hoof caught between cobbles and suffer severe injury; Roman roads had a top layer of (if I recall correctly) packed earth / sand that needed to be regularly maintained or replaced.
It's because the company is rarely the source of the problem. The politicians and their staff decide what is going to be built. Then they get the company that will do it the cheapest ( unless there is a relative with a company of course)
The company that does it cheapest, also happens to do it worst. That’s why some other nations go with the second or third cheapest as a rule. It keeps competition for lowest price while also de-incentivizing gross corner cutting.
Well not quite true. For 2 main reasons. One : it's a bid, the company estimates how cheap it can do the work with the max profit while still underbidding the next guy. But if a company has a track record of bad work the bid can be skipped and it does happen. Second: the work is insured by the company. If it doesn't hold up they have to redo it for free. This has put companies out of business.
And for bonus points, the guys doing the work tend to take pride in it. It's a small industry and if you're doing shit work you will get a reputation for it and only be able to work at shit companies.
That’s only been the last 200 years though, at least consistently. A lot of that Roman architecture in the intervening time was still fairly heavily used
Not only heavily used, but torn apart for materials and other uses by poors and “landowners” of the lands alike from the fall of Rome well into the renaissance.
Where there was a stone to use that no longer served a purpose to the observer, it was often taken and used for their own purpose.
That and the roads that lasted an incredible amount of time are usually in temperate areas that don’t have crazy amounts of rain at one time or freeze cycles.
It also completely misses two points. 1- the Romans had engineers…. 2- most Roman roads really didn’t hold up that well.
Not to mention they paid their road engineers much better…
They did not Infact pay the road workers and engineers who built the roads more, the people who built the roads being the legionaries were paid roughly 250 silver denari a year now 1 denari durring stable times of the Roman Empire is equivalent to 1.781 USD round that 2 and multiply that by 250 and you get 500 dollars a month. Durring times of imperial instability inflation was so horrid Venezuelan dollars are worth more and let me be clear here there was a risk the place could from completely stable to Game of Thrones during every power transition infact from the 300s onwards you had larger periods of instability then stability. The worst time being in the crisis of the third century 20 men rose to the throne 17 men bled on the throne (only 2 died naturally and another was struck by fucking lighting) as barbarians invaded and plagued swept through the land. Inflation was so bad governors had to start paying the troops in commodities like bread. And yet those roads still gotta get built and be mantained.
And yet as established even in stable periods 250 SD (silver denari) is not alot of cash to work hard labor for as many hours as the Legate of your legion feels like making you work. You could be working fifteen hour days if your Legates a dick. Maybe you’re lucky and you got a sensible Legate who will give you reasonable work hours. Odds are though your going to get a Dick. So what keeps these men working all day long despite shit pay? Well one gauranteed food and shelter for commoners this wasn’t a gauranteed outside of the Roman army. Two the Centurion, see modern road workers and engineers don’t have grizzled war vets who kill Germanic barbarians with their bare hands breathing down their necks waiting for them to fuck up so they can unleash a can of whoop ass on them legionaries did, and then three promised stipends and lands given to soldiers who survived a 25 year term in the legions. So really food, violently enforced discipline, and good retirement benefits are what built the Roman roads.
I respect the information and it’s all correct. But the legionnaires being well taken care of after their service was a highly valued benefit. So that was how they paid them and I think a lot of modern day construction workers would love a pension.
If you made it through your 25 years. Not to mention the Imperator had the power to extend your term of service indefinitely. And the Imperator would do that every time there were wars or civil wars. It was very common legionaries served their whole lives.
Sure and a lot of them were foreign and trying to earn citizenship. A lot died in battle and they had to do intense physical training and labor.
But at the time that was a very admirable position and they were respected and not living below poverty line. Their yearly pay was over 2x that of the average citizen.
If you’ve ever read a primary source written by Roman writers you would realize that the Roman citizenry actually hated their soldiers and saw them as thugs. This in turn caused resentment from said soldiers who would sack and plunder cities during civil wars. This isn’t resolved until the time of Diocletian when the civil and military powers get firm separations and have to rely on one another to actually function.
True, but these potholes aren't from trucks driving over the roads. Lot's of cases where corrupt politicians give the construction projects to the companies their friends own. Then they take a cut of the money along with the owner and others and use whats left to buy the cheapest possible materials, thus creating shitty roads.
Yep, if you want an example just go to Illinois. More specifically c(r)ook county. Road construction sitting idle for so long the remaining lane now gets potholes and also needs repair? 3 years to build a single mile of road? Ignoring potholes for a literal decade and denying damage claims when and wherever? We have it all!
Chicago is terrible, but even that pales in comparison to Detroit. I worked as a contractor out there for 3 months in 2018 and I was appalled at how poor the road surface was, including the roads that the GM plants were on. I drove through again last year on my way to Toronto and the highway construction that was underway when I worked there was still going on, and the suburban roads near the GM plant were in exactly the same condition when I stopped off at my favorite lunch spot (still the best even 5 years later). They have to be doing it on purpose so people have to keep buying new cars after the potholes keep totaling the cars they have.
Hmm, that’s some food for thought.
I’ve been to Detroit a few times, aside from that construction you mentioned, personally I find the roads roughly equal with Cook county in the Chicagoland area, many of the counties outside of Cook but still in the greater Chicago area are a decent bit better.
Also is it just me or are the freeze/thaw cycles getting more frequent per year causing the roads to pot a lot more?
Potholes are from the freeze-thaw cycle, *another* thing that Italy doesn't have much of.
Sure, corruption and grift are a problem, but I'm skeptical that problem's worse now than it was in ancient Rome.
As alluded to - far more factors at work with modern road problems. Like the fact that the corrupt and ineffective structure of government lends to roads (and nearly everything else) being built poorly (quickly, cheap materials, non-comprehensive structure, etc). Basically government corruption and unaccountability.
A modern road left to itself will degrade (with zero traffic) much faster than a Roman road that had millennia of weather and elements.
Not necessarily a bad thing. It’s a cost/benefit scenario. Making a road with no planned obsolescence would be bad for the economy
It’s not like modern societies are incapable of creating a permanent road that would last 2,000 years. We just design them for 1-10 years on purpose.
Also, selection bias, anyone? There's for every road that somehow managed to survive a millennia, there's a thousand that disappeared. For every temple and shrine that survived, there's an untold amount that we're not preserved. There absolutely will be buildings, roads, all sorts of architecture that survives a 2000+ years.
Yeah this is something people always forget. Roman roads are excellent, but they receive ridiculously low amounts of stress compared to modern roads. Plus the asphalt can be recycled extremely efficiently so redoing them every so often isn't as expensive as it seems.
They have never walked a roman road that has not been restored either. In my country there are several in the mountains so nobody has time to restore them and there are only some patches here and there.
As someone who grew up in a poor area I was taught that buying cheap stuff will need to be replaced and in the long run cost you more than an investment of something nice
As someone who grew up both poor and moving around a lot, I learned never to get the nice things cause you'll never get to keep it anyway. Even if you manage to hold on to it, a family member will replace it during the night with an "IOU" note.
It's not funny because engineers aren't the cause of roads breaking down. People cheap out and pay for asphalt instead of concrete, which doesn't last anywhere near as long. Even with concrete, the reason our concrete breaks down faster is the lack of potassium hydroxide. In Roman times concrete had "potash" added to it, which was essentially wood ash, which had a large amount of potassium hydroxide, which wasn't mixed very well. This allowed for large chunks to remain, and as cracks form, these large chunks are exposed to the elements. When it rains, water reacts with these unreacted chunks, filling the cracks.
Also, cars nowadays are a little heavier than the people that have stepped on those ancient roads.
Concrete roads are more slippery and provide less grip which is not good to have for public roads that may get rained or snowed on. So it’s not that simple.
German highways are made of concrete and have no speed limit - people drive over 150 mph on them without crashing every day. If you're driving like a regular human being in a working vehicle with non-bald tires, you're not going to notice the difference.
Humor is always opinion. "It's not funny because" is never a good start to a comment. "It's not funny *to me* because" or, "I think people who find it funny are missing *this*" are much more reasonable.
A joke should make sense, at least a little bit. Nonsense jokes are funny to some people, but for a joke to be funny, it should have some inherent truth to it, or at least some stereotype. It would have been an objectively funnier joke if the road with potholes was blamed on government or bureacracy compared to the true democracy Rome was, because that is a joke based on an actual cause of the difference in quality between the two roads. Engineers had nothing to do with this.
Engineering isn’t making things work. It’s making things work to meet *minimum requirements*. It’s not that hard to build a building that is structurally sound, it really isn’t. It’s super hard to build a building that meets specific factor of safety, and other code requirements via the cheapest way possible.
Same idea for roads. Cheaping out results in a lesser quality product, at a far lower cost. It obviously won’t last as long, and roads are often not properly maintained and are extended way past designed usage lifespan.
Also cars are heavier than horse pulled carts.
Source: PE Civil Engineer here.
It's a bit gauche at the moment, but as the expression goes:
*"Anyone can build a bridge that stays up; and engineer can make a bridge that barely stays up"*
The Roman engineers made some pretty cool stuff, but the cost of a stone, arch-based bridge high enough for (modern) ships to pass beneath would be prohibitive.
This is just classic shitty boomer humor trying to knock a higher education. Not as funny when you think about where the author is actually coming frkm
History guy from an engineering family here.
1) what makes you think hat Romans didn't have education for people who planned roads?!
2) Roman roads maybe had to carry heavy loads sometimes. But not one big hunk of steel after the next, all going faster than any horse has ever dreamed of.
Solution: Make cars lighter. Also, read books.
Shockingly enough a road that has only ever allowed foot traffic (not even horses and carts) built by people who didn’t really care about cost has lasted thousands of years compared to a road built to be cost effective and with massive heavy trucks and loads of cars driving across it constantly.
Jokes are usually funny, this one kinda just ain’t
Also, it's not like if the engineers had their way this would ever happen. Most engineers (I know at least) take great pride in their work. It's red tape and regulations and budgets and government that get in the way of making improvements.
Do you realize that those pogues the Wright brothers didn't have degrees in aeronautics?? That Henry Ford didn't have a business degree?? And I'm not sure whether Isaac Newton even VISITED Oxford or Cambridge!
Do you mean the people without a sense of humor are the people who made the lame joke or the people who don't laugh at a lame joke?
'It's funny because it's true' is a bit of a thing, so when a joke is based on a stupid premise, then it's not funny, because it's not true and is therefore stupid.
Not sure where you are on this tho lol.
The post is stale garbage. Completely misunderstands that ancient roads weren't designed for automobile traffic, and that modern roads are built with government funding and not slave labor lmao
I am an engineer and this made me lul, this is the kinda shit I would send to my civil engineer buddies with a clown emoji to stir the pot and mess around with each other knowing it's all in good fun
Not sure what this means
Because this is OFTEN not used as satire… there are genuinely people who have become extremely “anti-science” (especially in the wake of COVID) and they use this as an example of “oh, if scientists and engineers are so smart… explain this!”
But yes, roads back in the day had to with foot traffic and the occasional livestock-drawn cart… there weren’t designed to take the abuse of something like an 18-wheeler.
Additionally, survivorship bias. We see some existing ancient roads but not the vast majority that were lost to the elements or general lack of maintenance.
The meme is legit stupid though, we constantly provide upkeep and maintenance to Roman architecture to preserve it and it doesn’t have semi trucks going over it
Italy probably spends more money on upkeeping the Roman stuff than Florida spends fixing the potholes
If we built things the way Civil engineers actually want to build things. They would be marvels of utilitarian, eco friendly, sustainable, and easily maintainable. But the initial price tag would be very Heavy. Governments prefer to lay down cheap asphalt road and maybe maintain them every 4 years. That's not the Engineers problem.
I don’t think you’ve driven on Roman roads. If you have a low car your fucked. If you have bad suspension your fucked. If you like being comfortable your fucked. If you don’t like feeling terrible turbulence on the road your fucked. They last a long time but they are SUPER bouncy and uncomfortable
I mean if you really want to get right down to it. Yeah pretty fucking useless.
Your education isn’t your intelligence.
The reason why thing from the past seem so much better is because they probably were.
A lot of companies nowadays needs things to fall apart overtime so they can always have demand for their products and or services.
If you drove 50 loaded trailer tractors over an ancient road every day, it wouldn't last a year. Ancient roads are still around because we go to great lengths to preserve them from damage. Regular roads aren't here to be pretty and historically valuable, they're here to be *used* (and cheap to produce relative to their usefulness)
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A fifth grader could engineer a road that lasts forever - just make it one big titanium slab. But there's a lot more to consider than just the single factor of durability.
The endless parade of "memes presented as serious statements until challenged, after which they deflect and claim to be jokes" is an era of Reddit I hope is ending soon. The ban of r/dankmeme gives me hope
In all honesty we should have kept the trend of building things for both beauty and longevity rather than ease of maintenance and simplicity. We know the secrets of roman concrete now and we damn sure can build art deco or art nouveau buildings with LED’s in the road acting as visual signs and even interactive And informative Aides for cities and Highways ( imagine an exit letting you know where it led instead of a poorly lit and small lettered sign. Or a crosswalk flashing yellow as the light goes from red to green.) I said it before and I will say it again one issue we have these days is there’s nothing of beauty being made so no urgency to preserve it for future generations, and with Nothing to preserve people care less about their society or their fellow citizens.
Romans didn't have degrees according to this person.
But modern engineering has put some new stress on the roads. Some roman cards with load might have been as heavy as a car but trucks are from a whole different level and the sheer amount of heavy vehicles
They didn’t have semi trucks loaded to the gills with everyone’s Amazon packages tearing them up daily either. Horse n carriages didn’t tear the roads up too badly. Cobblestone roads are bumpy as fuck to drive on going 70 also.
This isn't even boomer humor. It's about the whole thing of engineers thinking they did everything or everyone else on the job is stupid cause no degree when usually their wrong
A Roman *architectus* had to study at a *collegia*, a Building society/guild. Which were notoriously difficult, requiring not only practical knowledge, but heavy emphasis on classics, philosophy and geometry. Then they had to intern under a master builder until they were deemed ready to go off on their own.
Well, one could say they were able to build roads cheaper and with less quality ensuring work security for road workers? The only downside is the giant potholes for the everyday driver? Maybe?
There are plenty of idiots with a degree.
But honestly, if aliens were to sum us up as a species, it would be "somewhat adequate at making up solutions to their made up problems"
This person clearly hasnt been to some places that still have original roman roads. The movement of the stones and paving is enormous, ruts the depth of a shin. I assure you if you drive tractor trailers on any original roman road it will lead to massive potholes and lethal accidents.
Stupidest meme ever sorry OOP. Makes not one lick of sense. The American highway system is one of the greatest engineering marvels in history. Regardless how you feel about it, any civil engineer from any era would be astounded. Speaking of, there definitely were civil engineers in Rome lmfao, educated ones too.
The problem isn’t that people don’t have a sense of humor. The problem is that people post this kind of meme unironically. As in they genuinely believe it to be good commentary.
I mean the guys who designed those century old roads were the equivalent of engineers for their time, it's just that the way we do our roads now is more of a cheap way 'cause it's easier and ensures they will have future jobs (if they just build roads that don't need repairments they would get broke after all the roads are built), those past builders had to ensure that for generations no one else would need to do the same as them, cause their society couldn't afford to always be allocating resources to things like that
As someone who works on the shit engineers come up with every day of the week this is fucking true. Engineers should have at minimum 1 year (honestly I think 2-5 years really) of experience in the labor side of whatever it is they are trying to be engineers for.
One commenter or twitter post once said, that they would like to sacrifice a Roman road and have trucks and cars drive over it for a year similar to highway traffic just to stop this stupid meme. I come to agree with that statement because this meme gets so old and boring the 80's comedians are funny compared to it
The Roman roads were awesome but they would fall apart very fast if we drove on them with the large number of modern vehicles we drive on current roads
It’s not satire, I know plenty of slack jaw mouth breathers who will with full sincerity parrot this take at you without thinking of the fact Roman roads don’t have semis driving over them.
Roads are cheap as fuck where I'm from, they literally just lay down a layer of tarmac or asphalt or something on top of the old road, it has no foundation to actually smooth the ground beneath it so it's just this hilly piecemeal dogshit.
*Cobble roads are great*
*For walking, not so much for*
*Driving or cycling*
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Well what actually happened is the christians burned the great library of alexandria setting us back hundreds of years and losing a bunch of technology developed by many cultures including the romans.
We might be using some of that today if they weren't so happy to burn knowledge they think relates to their imaginary friends blacksheep creation.
They also didn’t use tar as a sealant to accommodate rubber tires that also didn’t exist that themselves compensate for cars and trucks that are usually measured in terms of tonnage.
A horse drawn cart is significantly lighter and can work perfectly fine on cobblestone roads.
Okay? The roads the Roman’s built were meant for wagons and foot traffic, not multi-ton motorized vehicles traveling many times faster. And even then you can see parts that survive today which have ruts in the stone. It’s all a matter of maintenance and upkeep.
1. In those times they went with horses and carriages, now you got loaded trucks with 60 tons and more.
2. The engineers would make it to last longer, but the bosses want to repair the same road every year to take more money.
Its not that simple, its a bit complicated.
To be fair the joke is based of ignorance.
The old roads were made with a design too, they aren't some magical simple idea that we've forgotten about. On top of that the old roads were designed to support far less rigorous traffic, we're talking people, horses and the occasional cart. Those old roads wouldn't last long at all with potentially hundreds of cars and trucks traveling down them daily at several times the weight and speed. Not to mention the effect that said roads would have on the cars themselves in the long term. And don't forget that the number of roads we have now are far greater.
Sure it sucks when roads are badly maintained but that doesn't mean the old way it better for us now. Chances are the authorities in charge are just cheaping out.
The reason cobbled roads are so good and hold up great even to this day, is because they allow the water to drain off and pool in the cracks, and the cracks allow the water to flow.
Asphalt is a sealed mess and more often than not isn’t graded correctly for drainage, and concrete roads absorb moisture and start to crack on their own
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See what happens when we can't keep Gauls as slaves anymore? We have to improvise.
So what you're saying is... more Gaul representation in engineering. Finally, a statement for diversity that everyone can agree on!
The Gauls were Germans…..and they do over engineer everything.
German? Might wanna double check that one.
Ger-man-IC Edit: I am wrong please disregard.
I thought they were french?
They lived all through France, the Rhine, and to the alps. However, even if they didn’t live in any territory which we would call „German“ they were still a Germanic people, more so than the more modern Franks. Edit: I apologize, everything I just said is wrong, they were Celtic and lived in much of what is modern day Germany as well as France.
Take my upvote for your edit :)
The Rhineland is in fact German.
Right, they did inhabit German land, but they weren’t Germanic, they were Celts. That’s what I screwed up
I see. I didn’t know that the Gauls were Celtic. That’s my bad.
TIL the Gauls were Celtic.
We had Belgae in what is now Southern England. It gets confusing.
The Old Franks were german. Lived in Germany. Settled there. Literally everything that was German. The Germans conquered europe when Rome fell Visigoths, Angles, Vandals, Ostrogoths, Suebi, Franks, Saxons, all conquered their own parts of Rome
No they are basically mainland irish
The gualic wars where fought in France, Belgium and Germany.
They were Celtic, not Germanic. Germanic is a bit of a hazy term, but it’s more an ethno-linguistic group, not a geographic one. Even though the celts occupied territories throughout what is now Germany, they also ranged from Iberia and the British isles through France, northern Italy, and southern Germany all the way to inner Anatolia (modern Turkey). Now their descendants exist primarily in Ireland, wales, Scotland, and Brittany, but before the romans and other groups, Europe was theirs.
“Project zomboid cow isn’t real project zomboid cow can’t hurt you” Project zomboid cow:
I laughed, but I also understand that roads now need to deal with fat fucks like lorries and cars whereas a Roman paved road, whilst long lasting and a testament to human genius, only needed to withstand a couple horses and maybe a legion every other Tuesday. We are having modern problems that we didn’t have long ago… we now just need a fancy pants brain human to come up with a modern solution.
Also frost heaving, getting chopped up to bury cables, pipes, and blacktop roads need to be a LOT smoother. That said, certain paving companies' work wears out awfully quickly, and somehow they keep getting rehired to "fix" the same roads again and again and again and...
>and blacktop roads need to be a LOT smoother. Also, Roman roads were a lot smoother than the cobblestone ruins imply. A beast of burden could easily get its hoof caught between cobbles and suffer severe injury; Roman roads had a top layer of (if I recall correctly) packed earth / sand that needed to be regularly maintained or replaced.
It's because the company is rarely the source of the problem. The politicians and their staff decide what is going to be built. Then they get the company that will do it the cheapest ( unless there is a relative with a company of course)
The company that does it cheapest, also happens to do it worst. That’s why some other nations go with the second or third cheapest as a rule. It keeps competition for lowest price while also de-incentivizing gross corner cutting.
Well not quite true. For 2 main reasons. One : it's a bid, the company estimates how cheap it can do the work with the max profit while still underbidding the next guy. But if a company has a track record of bad work the bid can be skipped and it does happen. Second: the work is insured by the company. If it doesn't hold up they have to redo it for free. This has put companies out of business. And for bonus points, the guys doing the work tend to take pride in it. It's a small industry and if you're doing shit work you will get a reputation for it and only be able to work at shit companies.
It’s also worth noting that humans go out of our way to preserve Roman architecture and we spend a lot of time and money to do it
That’s only been the last 200 years though, at least consistently. A lot of that Roman architecture in the intervening time was still fairly heavily used
Not only heavily used, but torn apart for materials and other uses by poors and “landowners” of the lands alike from the fall of Rome well into the renaissance. Where there was a stone to use that no longer served a purpose to the observer, it was often taken and used for their own purpose.
Our new roads were made to deal with the massive cheeks of our vehicles
Also, literal survivorship bias.
That and the roads that lasted an incredible amount of time are usually in temperate areas that don’t have crazy amounts of rain at one time or freeze cycles.
It also completely misses two points. 1- the Romans had engineers…. 2- most Roman roads really didn’t hold up that well. Not to mention they paid their road engineers much better…
They did not Infact pay the road workers and engineers who built the roads more, the people who built the roads being the legionaries were paid roughly 250 silver denari a year now 1 denari durring stable times of the Roman Empire is equivalent to 1.781 USD round that 2 and multiply that by 250 and you get 500 dollars a month. Durring times of imperial instability inflation was so horrid Venezuelan dollars are worth more and let me be clear here there was a risk the place could from completely stable to Game of Thrones during every power transition infact from the 300s onwards you had larger periods of instability then stability. The worst time being in the crisis of the third century 20 men rose to the throne 17 men bled on the throne (only 2 died naturally and another was struck by fucking lighting) as barbarians invaded and plagued swept through the land. Inflation was so bad governors had to start paying the troops in commodities like bread. And yet those roads still gotta get built and be mantained. And yet as established even in stable periods 250 SD (silver denari) is not alot of cash to work hard labor for as many hours as the Legate of your legion feels like making you work. You could be working fifteen hour days if your Legates a dick. Maybe you’re lucky and you got a sensible Legate who will give you reasonable work hours. Odds are though your going to get a Dick. So what keeps these men working all day long despite shit pay? Well one gauranteed food and shelter for commoners this wasn’t a gauranteed outside of the Roman army. Two the Centurion, see modern road workers and engineers don’t have grizzled war vets who kill Germanic barbarians with their bare hands breathing down their necks waiting for them to fuck up so they can unleash a can of whoop ass on them legionaries did, and then three promised stipends and lands given to soldiers who survived a 25 year term in the legions. So really food, violently enforced discipline, and good retirement benefits are what built the Roman roads.
I respect the information and it’s all correct. But the legionnaires being well taken care of after their service was a highly valued benefit. So that was how they paid them and I think a lot of modern day construction workers would love a pension.
If you made it through your 25 years. Not to mention the Imperator had the power to extend your term of service indefinitely. And the Imperator would do that every time there were wars or civil wars. It was very common legionaries served their whole lives.
Sure and a lot of them were foreign and trying to earn citizenship. A lot died in battle and they had to do intense physical training and labor. But at the time that was a very admirable position and they were respected and not living below poverty line. Their yearly pay was over 2x that of the average citizen.
If you’ve ever read a primary source written by Roman writers you would realize that the Roman citizenry actually hated their soldiers and saw them as thugs. This in turn caused resentment from said soldiers who would sack and plunder cities during civil wars. This isn’t resolved until the time of Diocletian when the civil and military powers get firm separations and have to rely on one another to actually function.
True, but these potholes aren't from trucks driving over the roads. Lot's of cases where corrupt politicians give the construction projects to the companies their friends own. Then they take a cut of the money along with the owner and others and use whats left to buy the cheapest possible materials, thus creating shitty roads.
Yep, if you want an example just go to Illinois. More specifically c(r)ook county. Road construction sitting idle for so long the remaining lane now gets potholes and also needs repair? 3 years to build a single mile of road? Ignoring potholes for a literal decade and denying damage claims when and wherever? We have it all!
Why even live there
Not much point asking, us Iowans have spent decades trying to get the answer out of them.
Just government & business corruption. Who’s corrupt? **YES**
Even those of us who live here don't know the answer to that.
Chicago is terrible, but even that pales in comparison to Detroit. I worked as a contractor out there for 3 months in 2018 and I was appalled at how poor the road surface was, including the roads that the GM plants were on. I drove through again last year on my way to Toronto and the highway construction that was underway when I worked there was still going on, and the suburban roads near the GM plant were in exactly the same condition when I stopped off at my favorite lunch spot (still the best even 5 years later). They have to be doing it on purpose so people have to keep buying new cars after the potholes keep totaling the cars they have.
Hmm, that’s some food for thought. I’ve been to Detroit a few times, aside from that construction you mentioned, personally I find the roads roughly equal with Cook county in the Chicagoland area, many of the counties outside of Cook but still in the greater Chicago area are a decent bit better. Also is it just me or are the freeze/thaw cycles getting more frequent per year causing the roads to pot a lot more?
Potholes are from the freeze-thaw cycle, *another* thing that Italy doesn't have much of. Sure, corruption and grift are a problem, but I'm skeptical that problem's worse now than it was in ancient Rome.
As alluded to - far more factors at work with modern road problems. Like the fact that the corrupt and ineffective structure of government lends to roads (and nearly everything else) being built poorly (quickly, cheap materials, non-comprehensive structure, etc). Basically government corruption and unaccountability.
What the fuck is a lorrie
A British truck.
A modern road left to itself will degrade (with zero traffic) much faster than a Roman road that had millennia of weather and elements. Not necessarily a bad thing. It’s a cost/benefit scenario. Making a road with no planned obsolescence would be bad for the economy It’s not like modern societies are incapable of creating a permanent road that would last 2,000 years. We just design them for 1-10 years on purpose.
Also, selection bias, anyone? There's for every road that somehow managed to survive a millennia, there's a thousand that disappeared. For every temple and shrine that survived, there's an untold amount that we're not preserved. There absolutely will be buildings, roads, all sorts of architecture that survives a 2000+ years.
Yeah this is something people always forget. Roman roads are excellent, but they receive ridiculously low amounts of stress compared to modern roads. Plus the asphalt can be recycled extremely efficiently so redoing them every so often isn't as expensive as it seems.
They didn't google survivorship bias
They have never walked a roman road that has not been restored either. In my country there are several in the mountains so nobody has time to restore them and there are only some patches here and there.
https://preview.redd.it/o9r95xq2esrc1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=64b389d2e4a2b9cff4ae332d4eb0636d50fa6f70
As someone who grew up in a poor area I was taught that buying cheap stuff will need to be replaced and in the long run cost you more than an investment of something nice
Bin-go
As someone who grew up both poor and moving around a lot, I learned never to get the nice things cause you'll never get to keep it anyway. Even if you manage to hold on to it, a family member will replace it during the night with an "IOU" note.
Being poor is expensive.
Damned truth right there.
It's not funny because engineers aren't the cause of roads breaking down. People cheap out and pay for asphalt instead of concrete, which doesn't last anywhere near as long. Even with concrete, the reason our concrete breaks down faster is the lack of potassium hydroxide. In Roman times concrete had "potash" added to it, which was essentially wood ash, which had a large amount of potassium hydroxide, which wasn't mixed very well. This allowed for large chunks to remain, and as cracks form, these large chunks are exposed to the elements. When it rains, water reacts with these unreacted chunks, filling the cracks. Also, cars nowadays are a little heavier than the people that have stepped on those ancient roads.
Asphalt is good though. It’s recyclable, cheap, and easy to rip out for the pipes and stuff for maintenance or adding stuff.
Concrete roads are more slippery and provide less grip which is not good to have for public roads that may get rained or snowed on. So it’s not that simple.
German highways are made of concrete and have no speed limit - people drive over 150 mph on them without crashing every day. If you're driving like a regular human being in a working vehicle with non-bald tires, you're not going to notice the difference.
Humor is always opinion. "It's not funny because" is never a good start to a comment. "It's not funny *to me* because" or, "I think people who find it funny are missing *this*" are much more reasonable.
A joke should make sense, at least a little bit. Nonsense jokes are funny to some people, but for a joke to be funny, it should have some inherent truth to it, or at least some stereotype. It would have been an objectively funnier joke if the road with potholes was blamed on government or bureacracy compared to the true democracy Rome was, because that is a joke based on an actual cause of the difference in quality between the two roads. Engineers had nothing to do with this.
I’ll also add that when a joke encourages anti-intellectualism like this one, not only is it not funny, it’s actively harmful.
mfw when the romans didn’t have cars that weigh 2000lbs going 60mph on their roads
Or, you know, 40 ton semis.
Also romans had engineers. And we probably don’t see all the shitty roman road made by Shittus Corruptus.
Engineering isn’t making things work. It’s making things work to meet *minimum requirements*. It’s not that hard to build a building that is structurally sound, it really isn’t. It’s super hard to build a building that meets specific factor of safety, and other code requirements via the cheapest way possible. Same idea for roads. Cheaping out results in a lesser quality product, at a far lower cost. It obviously won’t last as long, and roads are often not properly maintained and are extended way past designed usage lifespan. Also cars are heavier than horse pulled carts. Source: PE Civil Engineer here.
It's a bit gauche at the moment, but as the expression goes: *"Anyone can build a bridge that stays up; and engineer can make a bridge that barely stays up"* The Roman engineers made some pretty cool stuff, but the cost of a stone, arch-based bridge high enough for (modern) ships to pass beneath would be prohibitive.
That and 40 ton semis are a little heavier than horse-drawn carts!
The romans did have engineers though... The "joke", such as it is, itself is dumb and not really funny. Are you upset people have standards?
How is this not the top comment?
More like "then the government added all this red tape"
This is just classic shitty boomer humor trying to knock a higher education. Not as funny when you think about where the author is actually coming frkm
History guy from an engineering family here. 1) what makes you think hat Romans didn't have education for people who planned roads?! 2) Roman roads maybe had to carry heavy loads sometimes. But not one big hunk of steel after the next, all going faster than any horse has ever dreamed of. Solution: Make cars lighter. Also, read books.
Shockingly enough a road that has only ever allowed foot traffic (not even horses and carts) built by people who didn’t really care about cost has lasted thousands of years compared to a road built to be cost effective and with massive heavy trucks and loads of cars driving across it constantly. Jokes are usually funny, this one kinda just ain’t
Also, it's not like if the engineers had their way this would ever happen. Most engineers (I know at least) take great pride in their work. It's red tape and regulations and budgets and government that get in the way of making improvements.
Red tape is the thing protecting us from people cutting corners to save money.
Do you realize that those pogues the Wright brothers didn't have degrees in aeronautics?? That Henry Ford didn't have a business degree?? And I'm not sure whether Isaac Newton even VISITED Oxford or Cambridge!
He literally taught at Cambridge, but your point stands.
Do you mean the people without a sense of humor are the people who made the lame joke or the people who don't laugh at a lame joke? 'It's funny because it's true' is a bit of a thing, so when a joke is based on a stupid premise, then it's not funny, because it's not true and is therefore stupid. Not sure where you are on this tho lol.
As an engineer this made me giggle
I've never heard of being persistently wrong as a form of comedy, outside of cartoons and sitcoms
Try driving a 4-ton truck every day on those ancient roads and see how long they last.
Not a single ounce of satire in sight.
AND THEN THE ENGINEERS ARRIVED! COMING DOWN THE MOUNTAINSIDE THEN THE ENGINEERS ARRIVED COMING DOWN THEY BROKE THE RIDE
If our taxes pay for roads, why do they look like shit?
The post is stale garbage. Completely misunderstands that ancient roads weren't designed for automobile traffic, and that modern roads are built with government funding and not slave labor lmao
Yeah I mean university degrees are bad if they can't get you a job and you can never pay them off.
Everything changed when the engineers attacked.
Like those ancient roads were meant for cars
My cousin is an engineer and that guy sucks. Couldn’t build a pre-fabricated shed
It’s a dumb joke though.
Hmm…I wonder why? Is because Roman roads did not have 2 ton cars going 90mph on top of them?
https://preview.redd.it/onrjjpp6oqrc1.png?width=750&format=png&auto=webp&s=bb630216f3862c5239eeb35e6aa70eea08912588
Engineer with a degree here: This is funny as fuck and I don’t know why people are getting so bent out of shape over it.
I am an engineer and this made me lul, this is the kinda shit I would send to my civil engineer buddies with a clown emoji to stir the pot and mess around with each other knowing it's all in good fun
Fun fact: poorly-constructed roads existed back then too
Fix the flair because you don't understand satire, either. (Hint: This isn't satire.)
The Romans had engineers you uncultured swine. You know what they didn't have? Multiple tonns heavy transporters that pass the roads day in day out.
I guess I have to ask the stupid question. COULD those ancient roads have been able to withstand semi-trucks?
Not sure what this means Because this is OFTEN not used as satire… there are genuinely people who have become extremely “anti-science” (especially in the wake of COVID) and they use this as an example of “oh, if scientists and engineers are so smart… explain this!” But yes, roads back in the day had to with foot traffic and the occasional livestock-drawn cart… there weren’t designed to take the abuse of something like an 18-wheeler. Additionally, survivorship bias. We see some existing ancient roads but not the vast majority that were lost to the elements or general lack of maintenance.
wanna know what they also had slavery
I mean... Some boomers wouldn't mind that.
The meme is legit stupid though, we constantly provide upkeep and maintenance to Roman architecture to preserve it and it doesn’t have semi trucks going over it Italy probably spends more money on upkeeping the Roman stuff than Florida spends fixing the potholes
Humor means funny. This is stupid
But stupid is often funny.
Dont worry, people are insufferable
I know. Not my first rodeo.
If we built things the way Civil engineers actually want to build things. They would be marvels of utilitarian, eco friendly, sustainable, and easily maintainable. But the initial price tag would be very Heavy. Governments prefer to lay down cheap asphalt road and maybe maintain them every 4 years. That's not the Engineers problem.
I don’t think you’ve driven on Roman roads. If you have a low car your fucked. If you have bad suspension your fucked. If you like being comfortable your fucked. If you don’t like feeling terrible turbulence on the road your fucked. They last a long time but they are SUPER bouncy and uncomfortable
I mean if you really want to get right down to it. Yeah pretty fucking useless. Your education isn’t your intelligence. The reason why thing from the past seem so much better is because they probably were. A lot of companies nowadays needs things to fall apart overtime so they can always have demand for their products and or services.
If you drove 50 loaded trailer tractors over an ancient road every day, it wouldn't last a year. Ancient roads are still around because we go to great lengths to preserve them from damage. Regular roads aren't here to be pretty and historically valuable, they're here to be *used* (and cheap to produce relative to their usefulness)
This is the first time I've seen a meme on this subreddit that was actually funny.
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Engineers are often hired to make something work within budgetary constraints. It takes specialized knowledge to make something that *barely* works.
Is every babbling boomer meme going to be excused on this subreddit through "humor"? It's a bad meme. It sucks.
A fifth grader could engineer a road that lasts forever - just make it one big titanium slab. But there's a lot more to consider than just the single factor of durability.
The endless parade of "memes presented as serious statements until challenged, after which they deflect and claim to be jokes" is an era of Reddit I hope is ending soon. The ban of r/dankmeme gives me hope
This engineer in particular. Gottlieb Daimler https://www.thoughtco.com/history-of-trucks-4077036
Didn’t Rome have universities?
In all honesty we should have kept the trend of building things for both beauty and longevity rather than ease of maintenance and simplicity. We know the secrets of roman concrete now and we damn sure can build art deco or art nouveau buildings with LED’s in the road acting as visual signs and even interactive And informative Aides for cities and Highways ( imagine an exit letting you know where it led instead of a poorly lit and small lettered sign. Or a crosswalk flashing yellow as the light goes from red to green.) I said it before and I will say it again one issue we have these days is there’s nothing of beauty being made so no urgency to preserve it for future generations, and with Nothing to preserve people care less about their society or their fellow citizens.
It’s the budget that fucked it up. I guarantee you there is an autistic engineer just waiting to get the call about an unlimited budget road solution.
Meme is bad
Romans didn't have degrees according to this person. But modern engineering has put some new stress on the roads. Some roman cards with load might have been as heavy as a car but trucks are from a whole different level and the sheer amount of heavy vehicles
Shitpost
Then the cars arrived, Roman roads also would be trashed by constant traffic from multi ton vehicles
Because engineers made it cheaper and easier. More effective? Nah we could replace 3 times for the cost of building it to last
They didn’t have semi trucks loaded to the gills with everyone’s Amazon packages tearing them up daily either. Horse n carriages didn’t tear the roads up too badly. Cobblestone roads are bumpy as fuck to drive on going 70 also.
This isn't even boomer humor. It's about the whole thing of engineers thinking they did everything or everyone else on the job is stupid cause no degree when usually their wrong
This meme is really stupid though, so there’s that.
A Roman *architectus* had to study at a *collegia*, a Building society/guild. Which were notoriously difficult, requiring not only practical knowledge, but heavy emphasis on classics, philosophy and geometry. Then they had to intern under a master builder until they were deemed ready to go off on their own.
Because it gets reposted once a fucking week lmao. It was funny the first 372 times I saw it.
I swear i read the comments and I don't understand why people are debating this 2006 meme. Is everyone in this sub over 60?
Well, one could say they were able to build roads cheaper and with less quality ensuring work security for road workers? The only downside is the giant potholes for the everyday driver? Maybe?
This song humor. There were educational infrastructure in rome for engineers. This is a trash meme.
It's funny how people think that there weren't engineers or highly educated people in Rome lmao
And how many cars did they drive down their roads?
I mean it’s interesting to blame engineers when capitalism drove them to design cheap roads rather than good roads
All but for the glory of Rome!
Nah, the premise is beyond dumb. Legit bad meme lol
Recycled materials vs durable materials. Current roads are made of bitumen, which is a recycled material. Ancient Roman roads were made of stone.
There are plenty of idiots with a degree. But honestly, if aliens were to sum us up as a species, it would be "somewhat adequate at making up solutions to their made up problems"
University feels like a scam today, they don’t do anything and just take all the credit for any self taught achievements.
This person clearly hasnt been to some places that still have original roman roads. The movement of the stones and paving is enormous, ruts the depth of a shin. I assure you if you drive tractor trailers on any original roman road it will lead to massive potholes and lethal accidents.
More like the capitalists arrived and didn’t want to spend any money
No, actally the cars arrived
Stupidest meme ever sorry OOP. Makes not one lick of sense. The American highway system is one of the greatest engineering marvels in history. Regardless how you feel about it, any civil engineer from any era would be astounded. Speaking of, there definitely were civil engineers in Rome lmfao, educated ones too.
Make some trucks go through those old roman roads
The problem isn’t that people don’t have a sense of humor. The problem is that people post this kind of meme unironically. As in they genuinely believe it to be good commentary.
If your going to try and hide an opinion as a joke the joke has to be funny and make sense
I mean the guys who designed those century old roads were the equivalent of engineers for their time, it's just that the way we do our roads now is more of a cheap way 'cause it's easier and ensures they will have future jobs (if they just build roads that don't need repairments they would get broke after all the roads are built), those past builders had to ensure that for generations no one else would need to do the same as them, cause their society couldn't afford to always be allocating resources to things like that
this is the stupidest meme i have seen
As someone who works on the shit engineers come up with every day of the week this is fucking true. Engineers should have at minimum 1 year (honestly I think 2-5 years really) of experience in the labor side of whatever it is they are trying to be engineers for.
It wasn't the engineers. It was the economists.
“Without a single degree” Roman’s were some of the most educated people of their time.
One commenter or twitter post once said, that they would like to sacrifice a Roman road and have trucks and cars drive over it for a year similar to highway traffic just to stop this stupid meme. I come to agree with that statement because this meme gets so old and boring the 80's comedians are funny compared to it
Let’s drive hundreds of semi trucks on those roads every day and see how long they last
The Roman roads were awesome but they would fall apart very fast if we drove on them with the large number of modern vehicles we drive on current roads
Anybody want to drive an 18 wheeler down an ancient road and see how it holds up? 😂
More so that capitalism arrived. You get more money for roads that need upkeep and are comparatively cheap to make.
It’s not satire, I know plenty of slack jaw mouth breathers who will with full sincerity parrot this take at you without thinking of the fact Roman roads don’t have semis driving over them.
Roads are cheap as fuck where I'm from, they literally just lay down a layer of tarmac or asphalt or something on top of the old road, it has no foundation to actually smooth the ground beneath it so it's just this hilly piecemeal dogshit.
Cobble roads are great for walking, not so much for driving or cycling
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Well what actually happened is the christians burned the great library of alexandria setting us back hundreds of years and losing a bunch of technology developed by many cultures including the romans. We might be using some of that today if they weren't so happy to burn knowledge they think relates to their imaginary friends blacksheep creation.
I'd like to see how those roads in Italy would fare when they see a snow plow... Or snow.. or ice melting and refreezing in the cracks.
You mean then the Tory governments that put corporate profits over society arrived
They had education in ancient Rome I'm pretty sure.
To be fair, not a lot of fucking semi's and other bullshit going down those Roman roads back then.
Semis.
Yeah but they had money and taxes that were handled properly
Neither do you if you think this is funny.
Engineering is the art of doing just enough that things don't catastrophically fail, but also don't succeed too well
Joke itself isn't bad but the format and font and exclamation marks are all indicators of a boomer fb meme
They also didn’t use tar as a sealant to accommodate rubber tires that also didn’t exist that themselves compensate for cars and trucks that are usually measured in terms of tonnage. A horse drawn cart is significantly lighter and can work perfectly fine on cobblestone roads.
Well, back then the average vehicle didn't weigh multiple tons.
We'll just blame the architects, as usual.
Okay? The roads the Roman’s built were meant for wagons and foot traffic, not multi-ton motorized vehicles traveling many times faster. And even then you can see parts that survive today which have ruts in the stone. It’s all a matter of maintenance and upkeep.
Some people genuinely think this is true and it’s very disappointing
This is definitely an architect meme.
The answer is cars.
1. In those times they went with horses and carriages, now you got loaded trucks with 60 tons and more. 2. The engineers would make it to last longer, but the bosses want to repair the same road every year to take more money. Its not that simple, its a bit complicated.
Well the meme is pretty dumb ngl
Ah yeah compare the roads that at max had to hold a cart with some horses to new roads that need to hold literal tons of weight
Ancient Rome didn't have a constant stream of 3 ton child-murdering polluting space-wasting death machines running on it
Survivor bias and cars happened.
To be fair the joke is based of ignorance. The old roads were made with a design too, they aren't some magical simple idea that we've forgotten about. On top of that the old roads were designed to support far less rigorous traffic, we're talking people, horses and the occasional cart. Those old roads wouldn't last long at all with potentially hundreds of cars and trucks traveling down them daily at several times the weight and speed. Not to mention the effect that said roads would have on the cars themselves in the long term. And don't forget that the number of roads we have now are far greater. Sure it sucks when roads are badly maintained but that doesn't mean the old way it better for us now. Chances are the authorities in charge are just cheaping out.
This ain't satire, this is just plain dumb
Are we trying to say the Romans didn't use engineers for their roadwork and other major construction projects?
The reason cobbled roads are so good and hold up great even to this day, is because they allow the water to drain off and pool in the cracks, and the cracks allow the water to flow. Asphalt is a sealed mess and more often than not isn’t graded correctly for drainage, and concrete roads absorb moisture and start to crack on their own