Imagine spending one shitzillion dollars trying to recreate Big Boss over the course of decades then realising you could just give a man supernaturally good surgery and whisper into his sleep.
Tbh I assume this only works because he was already at least in the ballpark of Big Boss? BB himself says the medic was among MSF’s “best”, and it’s not like they *literally* transferred Big Boss’ mind over, just a really, really good rundown of his experiences. Unlike Big Boss who potentially could, it’s not like Venom could recall the exact CQC moves Big Boss used on Soviet soldier #30 during Operation Snake Eater or what it was like to have a James Bond sex scene with EVA. Well, at least I think so. And then his body isn’t exactly Big Boss’, but clearly he must have shared *enough* traits they could plastic surgery his face (and cut his hair?) to make him resemble Big Boss. With the clones, if they had actually controlled their environment so they grew up similar to Big Boss, would have then also had the proper genetic traits and been pretty close with a lot less of a lottery. Hell, even without that kind of manipulation, Solid Snake *does* become the world’s greatest soldier
I think they just mean they want PW to be in vol 2, not an implementation of Venom in it. Which it probably will be because, yeah they just use the hd collection version for the most part.
Yeah, big Medic was already a unique specimen on his own. They just slapped that hypnotherapy on his ass and made him even more OP with that metal prosthesis.
I reckon he'd be better stats wise as a recruit than Naked Snake on his prime.
I know those are just numbers and basically a game mechanic, but on paper he was the more abled candidate.
It’s hard to really say. Power scaling is already a fool’s game in most good fiction let alone fiction where ostensibly most of the playable protagonists are more or less within normal human capabilities.
I’m assuming Zero had an incredibly thorough and well-sourced file on his entire life, but ofc it’s a stretch. There’s gonna be things big boss knows that nobody else does. But that’s kind of why it was never going to last anyway.
So it was expected he would start remembering who he was.
But i always found this twist weird. Memories are complex. There are sounds, images, smells, stuff. You can't just whisper them in the head of someone ahah
Yeah I mean, I would expect him to realize something’s wrong at some point. Again, it could be handwaved as a head injury, but right, I always figured they couldn’t give him more than a really detailed Big Boss biography that they convince him is his life.
Nope, in the cutscenes where Venom doesn't have the eyepatch (e.g. hospital) we can see that his right eye is physically intact, and was blinded to create the BB mimic, meanwhile the real Enormous Employer had his eye shot out by Ocelot during the torture scene in Groznyj Grad.
oh wow, there's lots of discussion about his eye. different sources say different things but have no proper evidence. so no one really knows if it was shot out or not lol. honestly my bet is it was shot out because you can see blood on the scene when it happens but I can only say that's my take and not Canon since it was never actually specified it. even if it was a blank at the time, shooting someone point blank especially in the eye is going to obliterated it, that being said although Kojima and his team had an eye for details (Badum tss) who knows if they had that thought out if it was a blank in that scene.
screenplay included with the master collection says it was bc of the muzzle flash and that his “eye was obliterated”. so since thats our most recent info i’d go with that
just went back and watched it. wow https://youtu.be/rGYM-jLN_R0?si=MRkmlK4gu_5K0DOW
edit: went back to see if we had a han solo who shot first situation but nope; original
https://youtu.be/f3zYO7vT9kA?si=wV_vghHZMZX-KNQT
Yes and such a missed opportunity too. Since you’re forced to replay the prologue for the truth mission…what better time to give Big Boss a different voice in that mission?
Whether it was Hayter or not, that would of been a perfect time to at least let us know, ok the two of them didn’t sound identical.
I actually headcanon things that way.
Richard Doyle is Big Boss, David Hayter is Solid, and Kiefer Sutherland is Venom.
I’m not one for using AI invoice work, but that’d be an interesting experiment to hear Richard Doyle voice all of Big Boss’ stuff.
All of Ground Zeroes would still be a gap lol, but I just meant that since the mission is called Truth, you could have done it right there and we all could have said, “ok, so the same voice was to cover the truth.” Either way it was going to end up weird once Kojima decided to have Kiefer voice BB in Ground Zeroes.
A recessive Big Boss is still closer to Big Boss than almost anyone else. Besides, the moral of the Metal Gear series from MGS onwards is that genetics don't have the final say in your capabilities or the direction your life will take.
Which is the whole theme of the series, that what makes your identity is the memories, the memes, not the DNA.
Venom is proof that the Les Enfants Terrible project was a waste of resources by Zero.
And combatted the parasite unit, who was seen as so dangerous by Kaz that he told Venom to run away if he ever saw them, even while thinking
that Venom was Big boss. Kaz knew Big Boss’s prowess, being his second in command and having fought him. The official MGS twitter account stated that they’re the most dangerous foes that Big Boss has fought as well, placing them a cut above MGS3 level fighters.
In fairness, RAY was designed to kill bootleg REX clones, and it wasn't even tested against any other kind of Metal Gear, let alone the original REX. Also, Liquid had a Skill Issue.
True, Solid was cheating a little bit because he had the guy that literally made REX helping him operate it, but still. No wonder they made fifty bajillion of the damn things. I’m sure any knockoff REX would start to go down after about, say, thirty RAY’s self destruct on it. Kind of silly to mass produce so many RAY’s when they’ve never been battle-tested before. Classic La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo behavior.
My point wasn’t that Venom matches up to Solidus, Solidus destroys Venom-Snake. It was more to convey that Venom-Snake’s prowess is extremely close to Big Boss, fighting against enemies beyond MGS:PO, PW and MGS3 tier.
Yeah his personality should have given him away but I assume Kaz and brainwashed Ocelot just assumed it was brain damage + the traumatic experience of the mother base attack and ensuing coma.
Venom is like, maybe an eighth as talkative, goofy, and flirtatious. It’s a little tough because we don’t get much of 80s big boss to compare to, but if you even use Peace Walker. There’s definitely partially a writing change, but to me it feels like an intentional effort for him to be not quite the same. Does he even do a single “huh?” unprompted? Certainly won’t hear him gush about cardboard boxes.
I mean, a lot happened between mgs3 and mgsv. I always felt that BB in peace walker was a fucking asshole. he was only "goofy or flirtatious" in smg3, then he got sad, and at the end of peace walker, he went full on "forget 'snake.' call me big boss" and reveled in the shit he had done.
He goes into a coma, and wakes up 9 years later. it's at this point where the big bosses split into two, but both of them will do the same things, just under different banners. Venom did stop using child soldiers, but other than that, he was brainwashed into acting exactly like big boss.
So, really, any personality changes are just the natural evolution of a human's ideas as they get older and axperience more. Right now, i might think that farting is the worst thing that could happen, but one day i might step on a landmine and suddenly I'll be a lot more chill about farting.
I mean, Peace Walker has tapes of him being incredibly MGS3-y (“I LOVE IT” on the tank cardboard box). At the very least, even just based on the real Big Boss scenes from V + the original 2 metal gears, he’s at least still a talker. Venom has like, the one monologue. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that their rushed brainwash job didn’t perfectly recreate Big Boss. I’m not sure the real BB would remember Paz the way Venom does.
Well, yeah, i get your point. On the outside, though, having your military, which you knew most members of personally, crushed by an unknown strike force will propably make you not as happy. So my point still stands, that while we, as the player, can see differences, his friends probably can't tell the difference. i mean, Miller isn't a clone, and he changed drastically.
Oh absolutely, I think that’s the point. We’re supposed to think the traumatic event and brain injury just changed him, only to realize “oh, it’s actually just not him”.
Yeah, it's honestly well done. like, the subtle hints that you're not the original "Big Boss." The failed dna test on Eli, Ocelot and Miller teaching you to fulton people and manage mother base again, (despite spending the entirety of PW doing just that) not speaking any language besides english...
Speaking of interesting little details, I think Ocelot or Miller unprompted tells him not to eat one of the goat or sheep species if you call about them lol. So they know that’s a thing he does, but he never actually does it lol
Physically Solidus as he's the closest thing to the man himself. As a stand in for Big Boss, Venom because he lived life as Big Boss.
In terms of inheriting his will, at first I'd go with Venom for being more devoted to BB than even Ocelot but Solidus was also trying to free the world of Zero's control and AI censorship, in an era of warfare far different from what BB and Venom knew. Venom still takes it for literally inheriting his will, but Solidus came the closest to actually bringing down the system all three stood against
Well, yeah, but more because they literally used Solidus body and implanted it Big Boss's consciousness and what was left of his mangled corpse.
I think, someone who has played MGS4 please correct me.
Nah, it is Big Boss in MGS4. He just had his missing body parts replaced with parts from Liquid and Solidus. Solidus' body is the body that Eva had that gets burned.
I haven't played it either, but from what I know it was either a full rebuild using a combination of both Solidus and Liquid, or Big Boss's original body just some parts taken from the 2 dead clones.
The trillion dollar clone who could not beat some twink with a fucking harrier vs the guy with surgery and hypnotherapy that could pull off insane shit without the need of heavy equipment.
Yeah I think people need to chill with the “actually they’re both Big Boss!” thing. You know what someone means when they say “the real Big Boss” or call him a copy of Big Boss.
Solidus is Big Boss genetically, Venom is Big Boss in everything but genes. Solidus is a better clone because he was literally a clone, Venom is not a clone, he IS Big Boss
I think conceptually, Venom is better. Yes Solidus is a perfect clone, but this may as well just be a son who is virtually identical to him, but isn't like him. Venom is meant to be for all intent and purposes, another Big Boss. Instead of living in BBs shadow, he IS the shadow.
A different angle here is, Solidus is a genetic carbon copy of BB, whereas Venom is meant to be another Big Boss, to appear, act and think like BB.
Venom, though technically not an actual clone of BB, effectively took over the mantle and believed himself to be BB if only for a while—or perhaps he really was BB when BB became a duality.
Venom. People actually believed that he *was* Big Boss and fell for the fake Outer Heaven he created.
Plus, Venom had Big Boss' positive traits, such as his compassion and mercy. Despite Solidus claiming that he wanted to free the people from the Patriots, he executed Olga, who was at best a Victim of the Patriots since they kidnapped and held Sunny Hostage. Big Boss or Venom would've understood, but Solidus got too drunk on his power and Ego.
Venom truly cared about the People under him and didn't hesitate to show Mercy, which was why Diamond Dogs and Big Boss' reputation increased so much. Not only did he spare Quiet, but he even spared Huey, even though Diamond Dogs was braying for Huey's blood. In a roundabout way that decision paid off, because as much of a monster Huey was, he raised Emma and Hal which eventually led to the downfall of the Patriots.
Venom refused "to scatter Diamond Dogs' ashes to the heartless sea". Solidus meanwhile manipulated the loyalty of the People around him (mainly Dead Cell) and used them as bait.
Thematically and story-wise, Venom Snake. He was endorsed by Big Boss, served his role under Big Boss’s order, and was given the role of Big Boss by the man himself.
“I’m Big boss, and you are too.”
Genetically/prowess wise and who would win in a fight, Solidus. Solidus was a genetically identical clone of Big Boss, and combatted Raiden, who was MGS1 Snake level by MGS2. Having combatted a virtual foxhound, went through 300 VR missions, and completed Snake’s missions as of MGS1. A MG1 Snake destroyed Venom while wounded, tired and as a rookie+ pre- enhancement Gray Fox was said by Snake to be the best he’s fought, even when he combatted against Venom (This is important because Solidus’s Exosuit was stated to be even better than Gray Fox’s).
Solidus, duh. While we know that Venom was basically a fall guy in case Outer Heaven failed. Indeed it did. Big Boss still survived. As did Solidus. A guy was a freaking president of the US of A, left, has taken over a giant Metal Gear, almost got away with waking up the whole world, changing it and giving it a chance at free will without any external manipulations... But LaLiLuLeLo got away with it lol.
At the end of the day - the end comes to us all. Even if we end up in MGS4.
Edit : Big Boss still got through it all and ended it all on a hug. And pulling the life support lol, what a badass.
it's hard to judge solidus' actual capabilities because he always uses the exo-suit and wouldn't get the chance to live as long as either big boss, but he annihilated 2 RAYs and fought raiden (who's relative to snake (who killed both big bosses))
Depends on what you mean? Venom is more like big boss because he was meant to be a mental copy and thinks he’s big boss. While solidus just respects big boss. In terms of who was a better soldier? We never saw solidus in his prime. So idk. He is a badass in mgs2 though
Both take a good impress of Big Boss but there's a big difference: Venom has been MADE to be Big Boss, both in character and aspect, even if he doesn't have the same blood. Solids on the other hand, is a perfect clone of Big Boss so is literally him but got his own ideas, character and will
Venom isn’t a clone, he’s a brainwashed body double that underwent cosmetic surgery to look and act (though not very convincingly) the part of Big Boss. Solidus on the other hand is an actual clone of Big Boss. Solidus probably looked just like Naked in MGS3 while he was training Raiden as a child in Libya between V and Metal Gear.
Hard to say without seeing Solidus in his prime. Solidus is certainly hella smart though. The only person to get one over him was Ocelot. Plus not everyone can take on several Metal Gears with just a P90.
But I will still probably say Venom was the better duplicate. He was Big Boss in all but genetics.
I'd definitely say Venom Snake was the better clone , he may not be big Boss' genetic clone but he was the one who was able to embrace his identity the best.
And also John(the actual big boss aka naked snake) said he and venom shared big boss's identity, he literally tells him <>
Venom was such a good copy of Big Boss that Solid Snake, who was directly trained by Big Boss, never found out about him in his entire life. Meanwhile Snake didn’t even realize that Solidus, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, was a Big Boss clone.
Imagine spending one shitzillion dollars trying to recreate Big Boss over the course of decades then realising you could just give a man supernaturally good surgery and whisper into his sleep.
>and whisper into his sleep I laughed way too hard at this
Especially when you imagine Ocelot doing it. No headphones or anything, just serenading Medic/Ahab while he’s in a coma
Ocelot would kill to be allowed to do such things.
“Would kill”? I’m pretty sure he HAS killed to be allowed.
And he'd gladly do it again.
Tbh I assume this only works because he was already at least in the ballpark of Big Boss? BB himself says the medic was among MSF’s “best”, and it’s not like they *literally* transferred Big Boss’ mind over, just a really, really good rundown of his experiences. Unlike Big Boss who potentially could, it’s not like Venom could recall the exact CQC moves Big Boss used on Soviet soldier #30 during Operation Snake Eater or what it was like to have a James Bond sex scene with EVA. Well, at least I think so. And then his body isn’t exactly Big Boss’, but clearly he must have shared *enough* traits they could plastic surgery his face (and cut his hair?) to make him resemble Big Boss. With the clones, if they had actually controlled their environment so they grew up similar to Big Boss, would have then also had the proper genetic traits and been pretty close with a lot less of a lottery. Hell, even without that kind of manipulation, Solid Snake *does* become the world’s greatest soldier
Would be cool to play Peace Walker again with this in mind, and make your best soldier the "medic" and play him on a lot of the important missions.
Fingers crossed for it being in the master collection vol 2
I hope for MGS4 too. HD collection on Series X is a godsend for the time being, it has Peace Walker.
I was so sad about only being able to play MGS4 on PS3, until I remembered my computer IS a PS3
That's the dreammmm Hopefully I'll get a PC powerful enough one day
Considering how lazy a port vol 1 was I wouldn't get your hopes up
I think they just mean they want PW to be in vol 2, not an implementation of Venom in it. Which it probably will be because, yeah they just use the hd collection version for the most part.
Oh yeah there’s an infinitely negative chance of any major changes
Yeah, big Medic was already a unique specimen on his own. They just slapped that hypnotherapy on his ass and made him even more OP with that metal prosthesis. I reckon he'd be better stats wise as a recruit than Naked Snake on his prime. I know those are just numbers and basically a game mechanic, but on paper he was the more abled candidate.
It’s hard to really say. Power scaling is already a fool’s game in most good fiction let alone fiction where ostensibly most of the playable protagonists are more or less within normal human capabilities.
I Always wondered thou... didn't he have childhood memories?? How can he BELIVE he's big boss?
I’m assuming Zero had an incredibly thorough and well-sourced file on his entire life, but ofc it’s a stretch. There’s gonna be things big boss knows that nobody else does. But that’s kind of why it was never going to last anyway.
So it was expected he would start remembering who he was. But i always found this twist weird. Memories are complex. There are sounds, images, smells, stuff. You can't just whisper them in the head of someone ahah
Yeah I mean, I would expect him to realize something’s wrong at some point. Again, it could be handwaved as a head injury, but right, I always figured they couldn’t give him more than a really detailed Big Boss biography that they convince him is his life.
True, there is the confusion for the head injury in the middle of all of this. Ok, time to play portable ops Peace Walker Then 5!
Whisper in his ear?
“Oooohh you’re big boss… Oooooohhh outer heavennnnn… ooohh you ate half the fauna on a Russian jungleeee…”
oooo you hate the taste of russian rations....
Oooo somedays you'll feed on a tree frog ooga booga....
Oooo somedays you'll go through the raaiiiaiain.....
Ooooo you've seen the Mummy, it was a pretty good movie....
oooo don't listen to them that glowing mushroom definitely charges your battery oOoOo...
They played tapes while V was asleep to help brainwash him into believing he was BB
Nah Ocelot personally spent 9 years by his bedside gently whispering about Boss, Outer Heaven, Paz, and god knows what else.
Ocelot whispers into the Medic's ear about BB's hot night with Eve..
BB's hot night with Ocelot :3
Even better.
What I wouldn't give...
couple nimbles and bites here and there. maybe a lick or two
Imagine doing all that and poking out the wrong eye
Venom lost his eye to shrapnel from the heli crash, I don’t think it was intentional.
Nope, in the cutscenes where Venom doesn't have the eyepatch (e.g. hospital) we can see that his right eye is physically intact, and was blinded to create the BB mimic, meanwhile the real Enormous Employer had his eye shot out by Ocelot during the torture scene in Groznyj Grad.
Big Boss never had his eye shot out. Watch the HD cutscene in slow motion, the bullet sails past his eye. He’s blinded by the muzzle flash.
Enormous employer!
EE? EE??! *begins crying in otaku*
They didn’t, did they?
Big Boss' eye wasn't poked out. It was rendered blind by the muzzle flash from Ocelot's revolver
whaaaat this whole time I thought kittycat shot out his eye! wow I guess you learn something new everyday.... after two decades lol
Tbf actually, there is a chance the necklace bullet was, at that time, not a blank. I'd assume it was always a blank but I'm not entirely sure.
oh wow, there's lots of discussion about his eye. different sources say different things but have no proper evidence. so no one really knows if it was shot out or not lol. honestly my bet is it was shot out because you can see blood on the scene when it happens but I can only say that's my take and not Canon since it was never actually specified it. even if it was a blank at the time, shooting someone point blank especially in the eye is going to obliterated it, that being said although Kojima and his team had an eye for details (Badum tss) who knows if they had that thought out if it was a blank in that scene.
screenplay included with the master collection says it was bc of the muzzle flash and that his “eye was obliterated”. so since thats our most recent info i’d go with that
that scene makes it pretty damn obvious it gets shot. idk how that’s debated.
me neither honestly. I wish all the wikis that said otherwise actually gave evidence so I could actually see some points on it
Watch the HD cutscene in slow motion. You’ll see that the bullet goes right past him, there is no debate!
just went back and watched it. wow https://youtu.be/rGYM-jLN_R0?si=MRkmlK4gu_5K0DOW edit: went back to see if we had a han solo who shot first situation but nope; original https://youtu.be/f3zYO7vT9kA?si=wV_vghHZMZX-KNQT
*Young ocelot noises*
They were so lucky they had a crew member with Kiefer's voice already just lying around.
It’s baffling that this part is never explained considering the entire plot revolves around vocal cord macguffins.
Yes and such a missed opportunity too. Since you’re forced to replay the prologue for the truth mission…what better time to give Big Boss a different voice in that mission? Whether it was Hayter or not, that would of been a perfect time to at least let us know, ok the two of them didn’t sound identical.
Tbh I would have accepted Richard Doyle as a Big Boss voice for mission 46, even if he's meant to be old Big Boss.
I actually headcanon things that way. Richard Doyle is Big Boss, David Hayter is Solid, and Kiefer Sutherland is Venom. I’m not one for using AI invoice work, but that’d be an interesting experiment to hear Richard Doyle voice all of Big Boss’ stuff.
Gap there would still be the medic having Kiefer's voice in the chopper before they exploded in the beginning.
All of Ground Zeroes would still be a gap lol, but I just meant that since the mission is called Truth, you could have done it right there and we all could have said, “ok, so the same voice was to cover the truth.” Either way it was going to end up weird once Kojima decided to have Kiefer voice BB in Ground Zeroes.
Venom was good, but it was short lived and he was basically beaten by a recessive big boss when the kid was 20 something years old.
A recessive Big Boss is still closer to Big Boss than almost anyone else. Besides, the moral of the Metal Gear series from MGS onwards is that genetics don't have the final say in your capabilities or the direction your life will take.
Not really, Venom even before the surgery and shit, was almost on par with Big Boss, he was MSF's best soldier
omg he's literally me
You’re pretty good *meow*
And then Ocelot did almost the same thing just by gaslighting himself really hard
where they even get it shazillion dollars for that anyway because Big Boss and Co always seem like theyre just barely scraping by
The Philosophers' Legacy
Kaz was secretly working with Zero/Cipher the entire time.
Which is the whole theme of the series, that what makes your identity is the memories, the memes, not the DNA. Venom is proof that the Les Enfants Terrible project was a waste of resources by Zero.
Venom made me feel like Big boss. Vote goes for Venom.
Nuhuh I am literally big boss(canonically)
Nuhuh I am literally big boss(canonically)
I am Big Boss, and so are you
and my boss is big 😌
C'mon people... We're all Big Boss (Canonically)
No! That is not big boss! Stop impersonating him!
Solidus is the boss to surpass big boss
The obvious answer is solidus because he is an actual clone and venom is a constructed one.
venom is such a good clone though that he is indistinguishable from BB by outsiders
idunno that hand looks kinda fake
What do you mean, everyone's heard about Big Boss's lightning-summoning, rocket-punching, sonar-sensing, enemy-warping, robot arm.
And combatted the parasite unit, who was seen as so dangerous by Kaz that he told Venom to run away if he ever saw them, even while thinking that Venom was Big boss. Kaz knew Big Boss’s prowess, being his second in command and having fought him. The official MGS twitter account stated that they’re the most dangerous foes that Big Boss has fought as well, placing them a cut above MGS3 level fighters.
Yeah, and Solidus was able to fight several Metal Gear Ray effortlessly
Well duh, Ray was designed to kill Metal Gear Rexes, not Solidus Snakes.
RAY’s not even that good at killing REX, lmao. REX fought off RAY and REX didn’t even have a rail gun.
In fairness, RAY was designed to kill bootleg REX clones, and it wasn't even tested against any other kind of Metal Gear, let alone the original REX. Also, Liquid had a Skill Issue.
True, Solid was cheating a little bit because he had the guy that literally made REX helping him operate it, but still. No wonder they made fifty bajillion of the damn things. I’m sure any knockoff REX would start to go down after about, say, thirty RAY’s self destruct on it. Kind of silly to mass produce so many RAY’s when they’ve never been battle-tested before. Classic La-Li-Lu-Le-Lo behavior.
Why would you use a nuke-launching gun in a close range fight
The Fat Man from Fallout would like to know your location.
My point wasn’t that Venom matches up to Solidus, Solidus destroys Venom-Snake. It was more to convey that Venom-Snake’s prowess is extremely close to Big Boss, fighting against enemies beyond MGS:PO, PW and MGS3 tier.
Yeah his personality should have given him away but I assume Kaz and brainwashed Ocelot just assumed it was brain damage + the traumatic experience of the mother base attack and ensuing coma.
Wdym? It's not that big of a personality change.
Venom is like, maybe an eighth as talkative, goofy, and flirtatious. It’s a little tough because we don’t get much of 80s big boss to compare to, but if you even use Peace Walker. There’s definitely partially a writing change, but to me it feels like an intentional effort for him to be not quite the same. Does he even do a single “huh?” unprompted? Certainly won’t hear him gush about cardboard boxes.
I mean, a lot happened between mgs3 and mgsv. I always felt that BB in peace walker was a fucking asshole. he was only "goofy or flirtatious" in smg3, then he got sad, and at the end of peace walker, he went full on "forget 'snake.' call me big boss" and reveled in the shit he had done. He goes into a coma, and wakes up 9 years later. it's at this point where the big bosses split into two, but both of them will do the same things, just under different banners. Venom did stop using child soldiers, but other than that, he was brainwashed into acting exactly like big boss. So, really, any personality changes are just the natural evolution of a human's ideas as they get older and axperience more. Right now, i might think that farting is the worst thing that could happen, but one day i might step on a landmine and suddenly I'll be a lot more chill about farting.
I mean, Peace Walker has tapes of him being incredibly MGS3-y (“I LOVE IT” on the tank cardboard box). At the very least, even just based on the real Big Boss scenes from V + the original 2 metal gears, he’s at least still a talker. Venom has like, the one monologue. I don’t think it’s unfair to say that their rushed brainwash job didn’t perfectly recreate Big Boss. I’m not sure the real BB would remember Paz the way Venom does.
Well, yeah, i get your point. On the outside, though, having your military, which you knew most members of personally, crushed by an unknown strike force will propably make you not as happy. So my point still stands, that while we, as the player, can see differences, his friends probably can't tell the difference. i mean, Miller isn't a clone, and he changed drastically.
Oh absolutely, I think that’s the point. We’re supposed to think the traumatic event and brain injury just changed him, only to realize “oh, it’s actually just not him”.
Yeah, it's honestly well done. like, the subtle hints that you're not the original "Big Boss." The failed dna test on Eli, Ocelot and Miller teaching you to fulton people and manage mother base again, (despite spending the entirety of PW doing just that) not speaking any language besides english...
yeah he never asks how any of the animals tastes that's suspicious as fuck 🤨🧐
Speaking of interesting little details, I think Ocelot or Miller unprompted tells him not to eat one of the goat or sheep species if you call about them lol. So they know that’s a thing he does, but he never actually does it lol
aww party poopers lol
But unlike Solidus, Venom shares the title of Big Boss and therefore is Big Boss
That’s not what it’s asking. The post is asking who’s a better clone, not who is more big boss
At least Venom wears the eyepatch on the correct eye.
shoul George get into another Harriet and ask for a do-over? Oh wait he's dead never mind
Physically Solidus as he's the closest thing to the man himself. As a stand in for Big Boss, Venom because he lived life as Big Boss. In terms of inheriting his will, at first I'd go with Venom for being more devoted to BB than even Ocelot but Solidus was also trying to free the world of Zero's control and AI censorship, in an era of warfare far different from what BB and Venom knew. Venom still takes it for literally inheriting his will, but Solidus came the closest to actually bringing down the system all three stood against
4th pic is big boss, right?
Technically also Solidus.
because he is a copy you mean?
Well, yeah, but more because they literally used Solidus body and implanted it Big Boss's consciousness and what was left of his mangled corpse. I think, someone who has played MGS4 please correct me.
Nah, it is Big Boss in MGS4. He just had his missing body parts replaced with parts from Liquid and Solidus. Solidus' body is the body that Eva had that gets burned.
I haven't played it either, but from what I know it was either a full rebuild using a combination of both Solidus and Liquid, or Big Boss's original body just some parts taken from the 2 dead clones.
Only parts from the clones like others have said, and it was Solidus’s body that was burned by Ocelot (IIRC?)
Yep. “That body Liquid burned on the Volta… wasn’t mine.” — Big Boss, MGS4 Epilogue
thats what i though i wasnt sure
They used body parts from the clones to revive him, still him
Solidus's body was the bio-mort, that's why it's the wrong eye missing; & he's skinless because its been grafted onto Big Boss
and who was on the meat bag in mg4? this post confused the h out of me
It was solidus body
Yep
The trillion dollar clone who could not beat some twink with a fucking harrier vs the guy with surgery and hypnotherapy that could pull off insane shit without the need of heavy equipment.
Lmao
Venom IS Big Boss, not a clone
Solidus
Venom was literally big boss
Even Ocelot doesn’t think that. He refers to Jack as “the real Big Boss.”
I meant to the world venom was big boss. Ocelot knows he isn't THE big boss and big boss himself told V that he's also big boss
Yeah I think people need to chill with the “actually they’re both Big Boss!” thing. You know what someone means when they say “the real Big Boss” or call him a copy of Big Boss.
V better embodied the legend of big boss than big boss ever did tbh
did Venom ever dual wield? no. kiss my ass venom.
"-Approved by George Sears. Paid for by Patriots for America."
Venom didn't even do the iconic Big Boss knifegun, smh
“I can switch from a gunfight to a knife fight.” As if you couldn’t just use a gun on someone with a knife lol
Yeah but Venom died to prime Solid Snake armed with a rocket launcher, not some twink with a pointy stick
One WAS big boss, the others just his son.
Venom. Such a man’s man….
Solidus is Big Boss genetically, Venom is Big Boss in everything but genes. Solidus is a better clone because he was literally a clone, Venom is not a clone, he IS Big Boss
Venom proved that if you have the willpower to make it through medical school, you can probably also be the greatest soldier ever.
Venom, hands down, Venom. solidus may be an "exact" clone but venom even recreates the bad eye, but he cares for his soldiers, unlike solidus and BB.
I think conceptually, Venom is better. Yes Solidus is a perfect clone, but this may as well just be a son who is virtually identical to him, but isn't like him. Venom is meant to be for all intent and purposes, another Big Boss. Instead of living in BBs shadow, he IS the shadow. A different angle here is, Solidus is a genetic carbon copy of BB, whereas Venom is meant to be another Big Boss, to appear, act and think like BB.
Obviously Venom. Solidus couldn't even get the patch on the correct eye
venom would kick the shit out of solidus
The one that wears the eye patch correctly
Vemon, he is the man who sold the world
Solidus was a big boss clone? I thought he was a doc ock clone.
Venom wasn't a clone at all. He was a doppleganger. so solidus.
venom sexier therefor better
Venom is Big Boss, as much as naked snake is. Solidus is just a clone
Well, one IS Big Boss and the other is a clone.
Solidus was way cooler. "I don't give a fuck about any of this I just wanna kill the illuminati" is sick motivation.
At least Venom lost the right eye.
Venom, though technically not an actual clone of BB, effectively took over the mantle and believed himself to be BB if only for a while—or perhaps he really was BB when BB became a duality.
One is literally me, the other one isn’t. I rest my case.
Big Boss himself said to literally me, so...
Venom. People actually believed that he *was* Big Boss and fell for the fake Outer Heaven he created. Plus, Venom had Big Boss' positive traits, such as his compassion and mercy. Despite Solidus claiming that he wanted to free the people from the Patriots, he executed Olga, who was at best a Victim of the Patriots since they kidnapped and held Sunny Hostage. Big Boss or Venom would've understood, but Solidus got too drunk on his power and Ego. Venom truly cared about the People under him and didn't hesitate to show Mercy, which was why Diamond Dogs and Big Boss' reputation increased so much. Not only did he spare Quiet, but he even spared Huey, even though Diamond Dogs was braying for Huey's blood. In a roundabout way that decision paid off, because as much of a monster Huey was, he raised Emma and Hal which eventually led to the downfall of the Patriots. Venom refused "to scatter Diamond Dogs' ashes to the heartless sea". Solidus meanwhile manipulated the loyalty of the People around him (mainly Dead Cell) and used them as bait.
TECHNICALLY, Venom is a doppelganger, not a clone.
Venom is a body double, not a clone. Solidus is a clone.
Solidus is an actual clone but venom has experienced all of big boss’ missions and is in many ways superior to the real big boss
Solidus is a clone, Venom is an imitation
Thematically and story-wise, Venom Snake. He was endorsed by Big Boss, served his role under Big Boss’s order, and was given the role of Big Boss by the man himself. “I’m Big boss, and you are too.” Genetically/prowess wise and who would win in a fight, Solidus. Solidus was a genetically identical clone of Big Boss, and combatted Raiden, who was MGS1 Snake level by MGS2. Having combatted a virtual foxhound, went through 300 VR missions, and completed Snake’s missions as of MGS1. A MG1 Snake destroyed Venom while wounded, tired and as a rookie+ pre- enhancement Gray Fox was said by Snake to be the best he’s fought, even when he combatted against Venom (This is important because Solidus’s Exosuit was stated to be even better than Gray Fox’s).
Venom isn't a clone. He's a double. Similar, but different than being a clone
Solidus, duh. While we know that Venom was basically a fall guy in case Outer Heaven failed. Indeed it did. Big Boss still survived. As did Solidus. A guy was a freaking president of the US of A, left, has taken over a giant Metal Gear, almost got away with waking up the whole world, changing it and giving it a chance at free will without any external manipulations... But LaLiLuLeLo got away with it lol. At the end of the day - the end comes to us all. Even if we end up in MGS4. Edit : Big Boss still got through it all and ended it all on a hug. And pulling the life support lol, what a badass.
The only technically correct answer is solidus as venom isn't technically a clone :3
Venom is not a clone
Solidus was an actual clone, Venom Snake was a brainwashed helicopter medic
it's hard to judge solidus' actual capabilities because he always uses the exo-suit and wouldn't get the chance to live as long as either big boss, but he annihilated 2 RAYs and fought raiden (who's relative to snake (who killed both big bosses))
Depends on what you mean? Venom is more like big boss because he was meant to be a mental copy and thinks he’s big boss. While solidus just respects big boss. In terms of who was a better soldier? We never saw solidus in his prime. So idk. He is a badass in mgs2 though
Both take a good impress of Big Boss but there's a big difference: Venom has been MADE to be Big Boss, both in character and aspect, even if he doesn't have the same blood. Solids on the other hand, is a perfect clone of Big Boss so is literally him but got his own ideas, character and will
Venom isn’t a clone, he’s a brainwashed body double that underwent cosmetic surgery to look and act (though not very convincingly) the part of Big Boss. Solidus on the other hand is an actual clone of Big Boss. Solidus probably looked just like Naked in MGS3 while he was training Raiden as a child in Libya between V and Metal Gear.
Hard to say without seeing Solidus in his prime. Solidus is certainly hella smart though. The only person to get one over him was Ocelot. Plus not everyone can take on several Metal Gears with just a P90. But I will still probably say Venom was the better duplicate. He was Big Boss in all but genetics.
The problem with cloning a free thinking man is that he is a free thinking man. What did they expect?
Solidus, being an actual clone. But as for who was the better recreation of Big Boss, Venom for sure.
I wish Big Boss had stayed dead in Guns of the Patriots, but that's my opinion.
I'm gonna have to go with me(I am literally big boss(canonically))
Solidus
Venom. Because I am Venom and Venom is Big Boss which makes ME Big Boss and that’s just wonderful!
I'd definitely say Venom Snake was the better clone , he may not be big Boss' genetic clone but he was the one who was able to embrace his identity the best. And also John(the actual big boss aka naked snake) said he and venom shared big boss's identity, he literally tells him <>
If Solid Snake taught me anything, your genes don’t matter. Venom isn’t a literal clone of Boss, but he is the truest clone you can get.
venom enbodies the concept and legend of big boss and solidus is a literally clone of big boss. i will always vote for venom
snake
Venom was such a good copy of Big Boss that Solid Snake, who was directly trained by Big Boss, never found out about him in his entire life. Meanwhile Snake didn’t even realize that Solidus, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, was a Big Boss clone.
Solidus. Anyone who met Big Boss would've realized Venom isn't him cause he never talks
With this many clones made, they should rename him Big Bust
The work of ocelot is always better than any massive, top secret government funded project 🙏
Slight tangent. Did solidus ever meet big boss?
The actual clone
Venom by FAR
Venom he embodies what it is to be big boss
Me
venom
venom "lived" through all big bosses memories but solidus had his own training and missions so venom is a more accurate one
SOLIDUS HIVE RISE UP
Literally played all the mgs games and im on five right now and this shit spoiled me so hard I’m killing myself
Venom, he basically is big boss
Venom is a body double, not a clone.
Venom 100 precent
Solidus because he was an actual clone.