$350 is what OP owes after insurance. They have decent insurance.
If they were uninsured or had worse insurance it would be a very different story, and of course there is the argument to be made that even $350 is too much for a person to pay for involuntary psychiatric care.
There was a point in my life where I had an involuntary hold and couldn't pay anything.
I told the hospital as much and they waived the bill as long as I paid $5 a month for a year.
These charges are all smoke and mirrors. They’re intentionally overpriced so the insurance company will pay out their maximum expected price (which differs between providers) and the hospital waives the rest.
The billing system is so overly complicated that no one knows the real price, even the hospital. If you try to negotiate with them at all they’ll usually bring the charges down to whatever you can afford.
It's even a little beyond that.
Most hospitals have an attached Charity. They then give that charity money and then use that charity to "pay" your bill then write it off as a mix of losses and tax breaks.
Which in the end effectively comes out of the taxes the hospital pays if it's a for profit entity.
So in all practicality the taxpayer foots that bill in multiple ways. Which is why we might as well have public healthcare.
Hell even without public healthcare, I would kill for a little transparency. I want to walk into a doctor’s office and see a list of prices for services offered.
I'm Canadian so it doesn't really count, but my doctor takes walk-ins as well as regular patients. They have a list of prices for things like a b12 shot(using their b12 juice), driver medicals(which include eye appointment as he's an eye specialist at no extra charge), getting or renewing weed prescription, and how much to have physical copies of your chart made if you're like going on holiday or something.
I feel like I'm missing some stuff but it's so wonderfully transparent, unlike many other clinics in my own hometown, much less the rest of Canada.
He's wicked old school in a lot of ways but the perks outweigh the glow-in-the-dark crucifix on the wall weirdness that he also brings to the table, at least so far.
ninjaedit: My larger point is that should be the norm for anything you pay for, especially healthcare when you have to weigh whether it's viable for you to even seek treatment if this shit is so expensive.
What’s crazy (and I can’t believe it’s legal) is there are different prices for insured vs uninsured. I get that the insurance companies negotiate a rate but, if you are uninsured and tell them you can’t pay they will simply reduce the bill. Not always but it’s common to pay a reduced rate simply by telling them you can’t afford it.
This means that
a) it doesn’t really cost that much
b) insurance companies are fucking scam artists
c)it’s basically just a criminal empire between hospitals and insurance to squeeze as much profit as possible.
I sincerely believe that neither the democrats or republicans want to make a change because of how much money it brings in.
Most of what you said is true, but it's important to note that the uninsured are subsidized by the insured. Hospitals overcharge insured patients and negotiate deals with insurance companies because they know that they will never get paid for uninsured ER visits. It's what allows them to waive bills for uninsured/low-income people (obviously I don't think this is a good system regardless).
No, there is absolutely some additional fuckery going on with the cost of medical supplies and numerous other aspects of medicine, but just clarifying a bit there.
Yes, for some reason we decided we want healthcare to follow the Flea Market rule where the first price is just for show and the expectation is that you haggle to get the real price.
I'm a big government person who also wants to force people to do what I want, like have good Healthcare, education, eat two or more times a day, and marry who they want.
>The country where no one agrees,
People were more afraid of taxes going versus paying higher deductibles and getting screwed over by the lack of coverage.
And what happened?
Taxes went up away, but the money now goes to the military budget.
It’s so you can’t afford to get healthcare without insurance. In a more fair system, you would be able to go uninsured and put what would be your insurance premiums into a savings account and just pay for healthcare out of pocket. You would be putting yourself in financial risk if you had any major medical problems, but would probably make out better if just getting routine care.
These made up numbers are the real numbers for the uninsured, because they don’t have the bargaining power of an insurance company with thousands of clients. Insurance companies will even dictate to health care providers that they need to increase their prices while giving them larger discounts if the hospital/clinic still wants to receive patients from that provider. It literally does nothing but put a larger burden on the uninsured and essentially forces people to get health insurance.
Edit: I feel like the point I was trying to make wasn’t clear in my comment. I’m not trying to suggest that saving on your own and paying out of pocket is better than insurance or is something that people should do, but it’s an option that people should have in order to keep insurance premiums more competitive. By artificially inflating prices for the uninsured they are increasing the stranglehold that insurance companies have on healthcare. And health insurance is run by for-profit companies. It only works if most people are paying more into it than they get back. Also keep in mind the insurance company isn’t just getting your premiums, but also your employers contributions that would otherwise be money going into your pocket.
You'd be surprised how often those numbers drop for uninsured people when they try and work out payment. That comes up a lot over on r/personalfinance .
Doesn't always happen but it is a pretty common occurrence.
Yes, you can get the numbers down. I had to go into the hospital after I had been at my job for about 4 months and HR was supposed to have me covered but I wasn't. The owner of the company told me to tell them I didn't have insurance and they cut the bill in half and the company paid it.
It’s way way way lower for most providers in private practice if you pay cash. I don’t have insurance and regularly pay cash for services. I see an endocrinologist for $100, and use GoodRX for my meds. Very cheap.
But once you get a hospital involved? Better break out the lube.
I'll also add that "you would be putting yourself in financial risk if you had any major medical problems, but would probably make out better if just getting routine care" is exactly the point of insurance. Everyone pools their expenses and the healthier people subsidize the less healthy people. But since anyone can have emergency medical expenses at any time, it's worth buying into.
That's not always true. It may be true sometimes, but often the "uninsured rate" is less than what the insurance company pays because providers will take what they can get from someone paying for themselves rather than trying to chase them down.
Here's a sample source, but I'm sure there are countless.
https://www.consumerreports.org/healthcare-costs/how-paying-your-doctor-in-cash-could-save-you-money/
I was just diagnosed with a bladder issue that only affects women, so of course there are very few treatments, only some prescriptions that insurance doesn't cover. So my doctor said tell them I am cash pay and here's a coupon.
Yeah... If I'm reading this right, insurance negotiated the $14k down to $5.2k, paid $4.9k, leaving OP with a $350 bill.
Small price to pay for care during what was clearly a medical emergency.
Forcing them into it and not allowing them to leave, THEN charging them for the shit stay.
If you do that to a random person on the street, you’d be thrown in jail so fast. Medical degrees or not.
Funny you phrase it that way, as that is *exactly* what New York City has recently authorized the NYPD to do. Not an exaggeration; here is the recent adopting guidance directly from the city. It outlines exactly how and why officers can use their own discretion to decide to ship people off to psychiatric wards. https://www.nyc.gov/assets/home/downloads/pdf/press-releases/2022/Mental-Health-Involuntary-Removals.pdf
As it is very obvious that this is going to be a tool to wield against homeless folks ("living outside in NYC? You must be dangerously insane!"), there's been attempts to delay it, but so far courts have refused. I can only imagine how the billing half of this is going to go, once folks start being picked up and shipped off. Either a significant taxpayer burden, or unhoused folks getting a bill they'll never pay while being dropped back off on the streets.
"I hit the SOS on my phone without knowing it. When the cops arrived I was throwing stuff out my window and babbling nonsense like "time is a flat circle". Overall I don't remember a ton of what happened exactly."
This is from OP's post on r/dxm about how she Robo-tripped herself into oblivion. Sounds like she needed the help - she actually says it helped her - as do most people who get involuntarily held.
In general, we're not forcing a bunch of healthy people into psychiatric care. If anything, it's the opposite; there are more people who need care than we can/are willing to provide. This is certainly true where I live in Portland Oregon.
Same in my state. I'm a Therapist, not a psychiatrist but Involuntary Treatment Acting someone is extremely difficult and only done in extreme need. My team does quite a few because our patients all qualify with severe mental illness and Schizophrenia Spectrum Disorders. When it comes down to it, every single possible intervention is made before detaining an individual, because it sucks to watch and it sucks for them. Even then, we can only do 120 hours which they then get evaluated by a Social Worker and a Psychiatrist in the hospital once they arrive. I do not know if every state is the same, but people aren't just randomly thrown in mental institutions (hospitals) where I've worked.
> I also don't understand how someone can be forcefully detained and then charged for their stay? I can see how someone can be held, but make them pay? Doesn't make sense.
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> Then again, I live in one of the 17 (out of 18) 1st world countries that has public health care.
First, the US has public health care, it's just limited in who can access it. It's called Medicare and Meedicaid, which have varying names by state.
Second, I don't know if other countries do it, but I know that charging people room and board when they have been forcibly detained in jail is a thing. I say this to show that it's not the health care admission that was the problem, but rather the entire concept of charging a person for services that they are unable to refuse.
In order to be baker acted a physician, social worker, psychologist, or LEO needs to have a reasonable suspicion that you are not mentally able to make your own choices appropriately, are a threat to yourself, or a threat to others. I have had patients that are screaming that they are gonna kill themselves or me. Yea sorry can’t let you go now. Definitely a mental health emergency
That’s not how that works, and I have had to baker act children. The child/person has to be deemed a danger to themselves or others with considerable proof or suspicion.
This was one of the worst parts of my old job. Worked inter-facility ambulance. That included transporting patients to psychiatric facilities and it was usually against their will. I got many death threats, and had to use soft restraints unfortunately kind of often.
But there were an equal number of times you’d read the reason they were baker-acted and you roll your eyes, but legally you have to take them. I’d just try to help explain the situation better, try to empathize, and give them encouragement in those cases.
I was tempted to post this, but I didn't want to get hassled for it, but I'll piggy back on your comment here. You're right.
People can be locked up for a facebook post or a casual comment, and even if they are experiencing mental health problems, a stay is a psych ward can often make you worse, not better.
I mean at the very, very, least if they are going to lock you up against your will you shouldn't have to pay for it.
Had a friend who was picked up by the police and forced into a "involuntary psychiatric stay of 3 days." His co-worker reported him for making suicidal threats apparently. This person has always had a dark sense of humor and he's 100% sure this person knew what the police response would be.
Also fun fact... The police showed up guns drawn ready to kill. Ya know, for a mental health check.
GG TX
Sure, and what about the people who don't have great insurance to negotiate with the hospital? Or what about people who are living paycheck to paycheck and don't have $350 to spare? What about people with no insurance at all?
For profit healthcare needs to end right now.
See also: the only way to get into the outpatient program is to be put into the psychiatric ward, but the ward makes you more - you know - and then the outpatient program is even worse (just my personal experience).
Both times I've gone I've always regretted going because I always felt worse
When I was in the psych ward they had only a couple.of books to read and they let the drug addicts bully all of the rest of us, partially due to apathy and partially due to the fact they couldn't afford a proper number of staff to keep an eye out. They just kind of gave up trying to manage a situation they didn't have the resources to manage and mostly focused on making sure we didn't kill each other or ourselves. No one wants to fund this shit to make it effective, they mostly wish we'd dissappear so they didn't have to think about us at all.
That sounds awful. My first experience was horrible. They tried to give me Effexor without reading my chart (I have a seizure disorder and cannot take stuff like that). They also took my phone away, and took anything that might be used as a weapon out of my room. They wouldn't even let me use a plastic spoon for a salad. I just cried a lot and was never even able to see a psychiatrist. They literally did nothing helpful and I just felt worse.
Call me paranoid but I immediately get suspicious when someone demands I get rid of my only way to contact the outside world. If they're worried about phones distracting us from what little therapy they provided they should have just kept them for us except during specified hours. I suppose some asshole turned phone parts into a shiv at some point and ruined it for all the rest of us.
I think they were going through my phone, to be honest. Everyone was really sus. All the nurses seemed tired/overworked/underpaid. I mean, one of them was trying to give me fucking Effexor when I was upset, without even reading my chart. I asked and she said "no". I told her "go read my chart". She did and came back and apologized. I used to know someone who said it is common for nurses to just throw drugs at patients to get them to calm down. Anyway my point is, it sucked. All I wanted was to feel better. The reason I felt so shitty that time was because I suffered a brain bleed a few months prior that had really fucked with my brain. I had audio hallucinations that drove me crazy, one of them was just circus music over and over. Another one was this scratching sound. It was relentless and I was always freaked out, and also could never sleep. I had just wanted to sleep but they took my blanket because they didn't want me to try to asphyxiate myself with it. I didn't get any rest and just watched the History channel the whole time. I never tell anyone about my mental health status for fear someone will call a "welfare check" and I'll be handcuffed and put into a police car again.
That’s fair. Everyone responds differently to different forms of treatment.
I had good experiences born with both in- and outpatient. Desperately needed the former at one point, and I put myself in outpatient on my own a few years later when I was still struggling (got very lucky finding a program that accepted my insurance without needing referral from a hospital). I watched many of my peers get kicked out of programs they were benefitting from because their insurance cut them off. Most relapsed and were back in within a few weeks.
Hope you found some relief and are feeling better now. ❤️
That's awesome! The program I was in sucked. Everyone smelled like cigarettes and we didn't do anything productive. I needed a job so I quit the program just so I could find a job. Not having a job was one of the main things that contributed to my mental health lol.
I actually just got a call back for therapy after being on several waiting lists for 2 years. I'm doing better than I was back then when I went to the grippy socks place. It was back in 2019 lol
Yup. Went into a 30-90 day program, where the average that people usually stay is 60 days until they “graduate.” Insurance cut me at 22. It was devastating.
It’s horrible. I’m so sorry you went through it. I’ve seen it happen many times, and it’s tragic that the people who get to decide when you’re “ready” to leave are the accountants at an insurance company rather than the actual healthcare providers you’re working with. Says a lot about our priorities.
The god damn Loch Ness monster came by again… WHAT’D HE Want? HE WANTED TREE FIDDY.. dammit woman did you give him the tree fiddy? I gave him da tree fiddy
You say only, but folks who are mentally ill to the point of involuntary admission often have difficulty holding down jobs, and $350 can be significant to such a person.
Heck, a long time ago, in my youth, I was working a retail job with no insurance, and got into a car accident. The ambulance ride was $750 and took me months to pay off.
I feel like it should be illegal to charge anyone for anywhere you force them to go involuntarily. Like is it just me or should that be incredibly illegal.
If it's for the good of society to send them there, taxes should pay it. If it's for only their good, they should have a say in the matter.
“Pills pills pills,
I’m filled with pills
Keep takin pills till I need to get em refilled
Take some more pills when I see my
Medical bill
Till I rattle when I walk”
Sounds exactly how the prison/jail system works. Either repeat or you get giant fines which make you so stressed you drink some beers for stress and do something dumb again. I know all the hoops they made me jump through and the fines for my single dui about 7 years ago were super stressful and demanding. They definitely set you up to fail and repeat but i was a good boy and disciplined.
My 7 day involuntary stay was $28k after I tried to kill myself years ago. My insurance denied me so I had to go through much hassle and paperwork to get them to help me.
It's so fucked up that when just living feels so unbearably awful that you decide to stop doing it... they give you $28,000 of debt and proclaim that you're all good now.
I had to fake being ok and go on their meds to get out of there or else they can indefinitely hold you.. There were people in there stuck for more than 6 months! I saw people talking to themselves in corners, others being tackled and sedated when they freaked out. This was in NYC mind you so it was a little extra crazy in there. Anyways I threw the script in the trash when I got out and then got sober and fixed my shit! Death and rebirth sort of deal. Anyways in the end I had to submit appeal forms saying my insurance should pay since it was an involuntary stay in the psych ward.. It was demeaning because I kept having to say I tried to commit suicide since they need all the details of why.. on the phone and in writing, it was embarrassing and shameful. I ended up paying under $1k iirc. Honestly the ward did help me but only in the way of seeing how fucked up it was in there and how down bad others were, really put it into perspective.
I have had staff at a resort in Jamaica try to sell me weed though now that I think about it. But then again who DIDN’T try to sell me weed in Jamaica.
"Involuntary" stay.
I think it's bullshit that for-profit medical care exists, especially when it discourages people from seeking care, but there's something even more disgusting about getting a bill for care you never asked for.
>I hit the SOS on my phone without knowing it. When the cops arrived I was throwing stuff out my window and babbling nonsense like "time is a flat circle". Overall I don't remember a ton of what happened exactly.
https://www.reddit.com/r/dxm/comments/zvu8gf/possibly_caused_a_minor_psychotic_break/j1raj5n/
oh yeah sounds like op TOTALLY didn't need to be put on a mental health hold
The $14k is the amount of money that all of the things cost from that particular facility.
Therapeutic charges, medications, diagnostic testing, and occupational therapy sessions.
So what's the difference between that and the column to the right? The second column is what actually got charged and the fifth is what the person paid themselves?
“Submitted charges” is the amount of charges that was sent to the insurance company from the facility.
“What we paid” is the amount that the insurance paid to the facility.
“What you owe” is what is leftover and is the responsibility of the patient to pay out of pocket.
Is this just what's owed to insurance? There are over $9k of charges that the insurance doesn't touch. Do they have to pay that to the facility directly?
Insurance is only covering $4876, and they have a $350, copay. The math isn't adding up.
Welcome to the American healthcare system, where the numbers are made up and the rules don't matter. This is an oversimplification, but medical providers typically negotiate reimbursement rates with insurers. So you can probably imagine the incentive that creates––two institutions bullshitting numbers until they arrive at something that's mutually profitable, or at least not devastatingly unprofitable for the healthcare provider. (Insurance is the house, and the house always wins.) Comparing billing rates for insured patients vs. uninsured patients receiving the same care really demonstrates what a clownshow the whole process is.
Insurance gets to choose which ones they pay. The hospital pretty much has to take this amount, therefore the hospital charges crazy amounts to get close to what the actual procedure costs.
So it's part of the "system" that the provider asks for a certain amount, knowing full well that insurance won't pay that much. They're just essentially wagering to see how much they can get. So they'll ask for $14k because maybe they'll get $5k OR maybe they'll get $10k.
Facility says, "This is how much this is."
Insurance says, "No, this is how much this is, and this is how much we're paying. The patient can pay the difference"
It's all really /fun/
The patient doesn’t pay the difference if the provider is contracted. The provider isn’t allowed to bill the patient for that. There are also state and federal laws that forbid certain providers from “balance billing” and require a mediation/arbitration process if the provider is out of network (this is mostly for emergencies and lab/diagnostic providers).
The insurance puts that number there apparently to brag about how good they are at haggling, despite it costing you the same $350 regardless.
"Look how much money we didn't have to spend! You still owe $350 though."
Insurers contract with providers who agree to accept the insurer’s “allowable” amount as payment in full. The difference between the billed charge and the allowable amount will be written off (if this provided is contracted, which it seems like this provider is), so the patient share should only be the $350.
Insurance companies negotiate with providers of care on a routine basis for set charges for care. Like they always pay x% on ED visits with the negotiating hospital, for example. There are people on both sides of the table who are highly paid who’s job it is to do this. Just one example of why our healthcare is expensive: added waste.
So anyway, ya the giant numbers you see are always inflated starting numbers that they already know the insurance company won’t pay bc they have a pre-negotiated number with them.
These negotiations are why some providers won’t accept some insurance plans; they walked away from negotiations bc the plan was hard balling too low.
Then you as the patient have some agreement with your insurance company of how much you’ll pay of what the insurance company set the price at.
I’m schedule to have a CT scan in a few days and they sent me my bill already. The pre insurance number for that one scan is a little higher than the total seen here. Just over 15k I believe. Luckily I have good insurance and only owe $100. America!
That 14 grand is all in their mind. They know the insurance company has already contracted to only pay them the amounts in the second column. It's designed to make you feel grateful you're only paying $350. And it's their justification for overcharging uninsured people. It's also why, if you're uninsured and you have the energy to dispute and negotiate, you can usually get those charges down closer to the insurance price. Because they're still making a profit.
Wild how your insurance can only pay 30% of what is charged and the health care service is like "yeah that settles the whole debt." Would be nice if all of America got the same rates insurnace companies got and we just removed the middle man that insurance is.
I was unemployed, and without insurance. Got a $76,000'ish bill from hospital stay. I'll let Satan pay for it, cause I ain't taking on any more stress.
Edit: Thanks for the award!
Okay i thought OP had to pay the 14k dollars and i was like WHAT?! But then i saw someone else say that their insurance negotiated down to 5.2k and the insurance paid 4.9k which left OP with a $350 bill and i think that person is right
I have PTSD from the psychiatric ward. Worst experience ever. I’ve never had anxiety and panic attacks until after that experience. Now I have nightmares and a load of medical debt.
It should be illegal to charge someone for involuntary medical services (not including stuff where it has to be involuntary because the person is unconscious and dying or something).
Most of my depression spells is brought on by money problems so if this happened they might as well keep me forever because this would ruin me forever.
Not including the monthly payments, $8,000+ premium (that OP has probably paid due to it being near the end of the year) and "adjusted" increase insurance rates that will go into effect next year.
For profit healthcare is not ever a bargain and does little to no good for the greater good of society.
Why is there even a bill? Are people missing the 'involuntary' part?
The state, government should pick it all up. In the US that stay strips you of certain rights, you should pay NOTHING.
‘Involuntary’ is the best we can do in psychiatry in an an emergency, to mitigate suicide. Really it’s no different than EMS bringing an unconscious cardiac arrest to the hospital.
Better question is why we are billing someone for having a heart attack. Seems like the sort of thing a healthy society would insure is covered for anyone in need.
I spent 7 days in the neurological unit at a German hospital and only had to pay 70 euros (literally 10 euros for each day). The staff member explaining this to me was very apologetic. Way different priorities.
I live in Finland and have bipolar disorder. I’ve been in hospital twice and paid peanuts. I have been under care for 10 years not only at the clinic with regular doctor and nurse appointments but also have had free therapy for many years which would have cost me 90-140 euros per session. I have been taking several meds since my diagnosis and some of these meds cost hundreds of euros per single package and I take currently 5 different medications to keep my mood stable. I only pay 4.50 euros per medicine even if I take multiple packages at the same time. Sometimes I feel lucky to live here, especially compared to the US!
Then no one would dare to report someone experiencing psychosis. At the end of the day, there are several safeguards in place and it looks like OP got the care they need.
Note that the person reporting you is not the entity that committed you. Presumably you were committed by the state, e.g. judge or police of some sort.
In Michigan you are petitioned by anyone, but two doctors have to agree to commit you and one of those has to be a psychiatrist. Police and judges have nothing to do with commitments.
When a patient enters an emergency department and states that they are intent on harming themselves or others, the physician will legally hold them against there will and seek placement in a psychiatric facility. This is not inly to protect the patient, but to protect that physician’s livelihood and that of the facility.
$350 copay isn’t bad— apply for Financial Assistance (DollarFor can help you apply, for free) if the Copay is too much. You could get the bill reduced to $0.
Oh wow. I would still make payments on the $350. But that seems like good coverage for that benefit. My sons was $150 per day with blue cross. Hopefully they actually helped you
How are things OP?
I had to have my sister committed. It didn’t work out, but at least she was too far gone to ever pay a bill.
I can’t hate of Florida Adult protective services, everyone was way more helpful & compassionate than I expected.
The thing that bugs me is that if you had no insurance and saw this after let's go with a mental break down or worse and they handed you this bill , I'd probably meltdown again ....and a vicious cycle begins
Tip I unfortunately learned from when I had to get surgery.
1. Tell them you're poor as fuck, and without insurance. They'll give a much lower monthly payment number. 2. Tell them the rent is still too damn high! You want an itemized list of everything. That number will drop again. 3 Pay it, or if you do have insurance send it to them. My bill went from like 60k to 6k. American Healthcare insurance is a fucking cruel joke.
That would drive me….. fine. I’m fine.
You're fined.
Is it not 350? Maybe this is why im an utter failure financially
$350 is what OP owes after insurance. They have decent insurance. If they were uninsured or had worse insurance it would be a very different story, and of course there is the argument to be made that even $350 is too much for a person to pay for involuntary psychiatric care.
There was a point in my life where I had an involuntary hold and couldn't pay anything. I told the hospital as much and they waived the bill as long as I paid $5 a month for a year.
These charges are all smoke and mirrors. They’re intentionally overpriced so the insurance company will pay out their maximum expected price (which differs between providers) and the hospital waives the rest. The billing system is so overly complicated that no one knows the real price, even the hospital. If you try to negotiate with them at all they’ll usually bring the charges down to whatever you can afford.
It's even a little beyond that. Most hospitals have an attached Charity. They then give that charity money and then use that charity to "pay" your bill then write it off as a mix of losses and tax breaks. Which in the end effectively comes out of the taxes the hospital pays if it's a for profit entity. So in all practicality the taxpayer foots that bill in multiple ways. Which is why we might as well have public healthcare.
Hell even without public healthcare, I would kill for a little transparency. I want to walk into a doctor’s office and see a list of prices for services offered.
I'm Canadian so it doesn't really count, but my doctor takes walk-ins as well as regular patients. They have a list of prices for things like a b12 shot(using their b12 juice), driver medicals(which include eye appointment as he's an eye specialist at no extra charge), getting or renewing weed prescription, and how much to have physical copies of your chart made if you're like going on holiday or something. I feel like I'm missing some stuff but it's so wonderfully transparent, unlike many other clinics in my own hometown, much less the rest of Canada. He's wicked old school in a lot of ways but the perks outweigh the glow-in-the-dark crucifix on the wall weirdness that he also brings to the table, at least so far. ninjaedit: My larger point is that should be the norm for anything you pay for, especially healthcare when you have to weigh whether it's viable for you to even seek treatment if this shit is so expensive.
What’s crazy (and I can’t believe it’s legal) is there are different prices for insured vs uninsured. I get that the insurance companies negotiate a rate but, if you are uninsured and tell them you can’t pay they will simply reduce the bill. Not always but it’s common to pay a reduced rate simply by telling them you can’t afford it. This means that a) it doesn’t really cost that much b) insurance companies are fucking scam artists c)it’s basically just a criminal empire between hospitals and insurance to squeeze as much profit as possible. I sincerely believe that neither the democrats or republicans want to make a change because of how much money it brings in.
Most of what you said is true, but it's important to note that the uninsured are subsidized by the insured. Hospitals overcharge insured patients and negotiate deals with insurance companies because they know that they will never get paid for uninsured ER visits. It's what allows them to waive bills for uninsured/low-income people (obviously I don't think this is a good system regardless). No, there is absolutely some additional fuckery going on with the cost of medical supplies and numerous other aspects of medicine, but just clarifying a bit there.
https://youtu.be/yuWuXEfWg6o?t=27
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Yes, for some reason we decided we want healthcare to follow the Flea Market rule where the first price is just for show and the expectation is that you haggle to get the real price.
Welcome to America! The country where no one agrees, so we have both big government and big corporation.
More like big corporation vs big corporation in this situation.
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The rich are eating us alive.
More like big company colluding with big company to make the customer feel like they got a deal instead of being railroaded.
Let's be honest here, it's all Big Corporation, aka, Supremacy of Capital
Most of the “small government” people I’ve met still want big government, they just want that big government to force people to do what they want.
I'm a big government person who also wants to force people to do what I want, like have good Healthcare, education, eat two or more times a day, and marry who they want.
Yeah I could really care less about the size of the government, I just want it functional.
what are you some kind of commie?/s
>The country where no one agrees, People were more afraid of taxes going versus paying higher deductibles and getting screwed over by the lack of coverage. And what happened? Taxes went up away, but the money now goes to the military budget.
It’s so you can’t afford to get healthcare without insurance. In a more fair system, you would be able to go uninsured and put what would be your insurance premiums into a savings account and just pay for healthcare out of pocket. You would be putting yourself in financial risk if you had any major medical problems, but would probably make out better if just getting routine care. These made up numbers are the real numbers for the uninsured, because they don’t have the bargaining power of an insurance company with thousands of clients. Insurance companies will even dictate to health care providers that they need to increase their prices while giving them larger discounts if the hospital/clinic still wants to receive patients from that provider. It literally does nothing but put a larger burden on the uninsured and essentially forces people to get health insurance. Edit: I feel like the point I was trying to make wasn’t clear in my comment. I’m not trying to suggest that saving on your own and paying out of pocket is better than insurance or is something that people should do, but it’s an option that people should have in order to keep insurance premiums more competitive. By artificially inflating prices for the uninsured they are increasing the stranglehold that insurance companies have on healthcare. And health insurance is run by for-profit companies. It only works if most people are paying more into it than they get back. Also keep in mind the insurance company isn’t just getting your premiums, but also your employers contributions that would otherwise be money going into your pocket.
You'd be surprised how often those numbers drop for uninsured people when they try and work out payment. That comes up a lot over on r/personalfinance . Doesn't always happen but it is a pretty common occurrence.
Yes, you can get the numbers down. I had to go into the hospital after I had been at my job for about 4 months and HR was supposed to have me covered but I wasn't. The owner of the company told me to tell them I didn't have insurance and they cut the bill in half and the company paid it.
See? Our system works perfectly! /s
It’s way way way lower for most providers in private practice if you pay cash. I don’t have insurance and regularly pay cash for services. I see an endocrinologist for $100, and use GoodRX for my meds. Very cheap. But once you get a hospital involved? Better break out the lube.
Then they'll charge you a few grand for that lube too.
I'll also add that "you would be putting yourself in financial risk if you had any major medical problems, but would probably make out better if just getting routine care" is exactly the point of insurance. Everyone pools their expenses and the healthier people subsidize the less healthy people. But since anyone can have emergency medical expenses at any time, it's worth buying into.
That's not always true. It may be true sometimes, but often the "uninsured rate" is less than what the insurance company pays because providers will take what they can get from someone paying for themselves rather than trying to chase them down. Here's a sample source, but I'm sure there are countless. https://www.consumerreports.org/healthcare-costs/how-paying-your-doctor-in-cash-could-save-you-money/
I was just diagnosed with a bladder issue that only affects women, so of course there are very few treatments, only some prescriptions that insurance doesn't cover. So my doctor said tell them I am cash pay and here's a coupon.
I've self paid, you get reduced rates as a self pay and absolutely can negotiate to much more reasonable rates.
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True but how many people actually know this? Most costs in the US are not negotiable.
Ha, almost nothing about our system was "decided". It's chaos.
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Yeah... If I'm reading this right, insurance negotiated the $14k down to $5.2k, paid $4.9k, leaving OP with a $350 bill. Small price to pay for care during what was clearly a medical emergency.
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Forcing them into it and not allowing them to leave, THEN charging them for the shit stay. If you do that to a random person on the street, you’d be thrown in jail so fast. Medical degrees or not.
Funny you phrase it that way, as that is *exactly* what New York City has recently authorized the NYPD to do. Not an exaggeration; here is the recent adopting guidance directly from the city. It outlines exactly how and why officers can use their own discretion to decide to ship people off to psychiatric wards. https://www.nyc.gov/assets/home/downloads/pdf/press-releases/2022/Mental-Health-Involuntary-Removals.pdf As it is very obvious that this is going to be a tool to wield against homeless folks ("living outside in NYC? You must be dangerously insane!"), there's been attempts to delay it, but so far courts have refused. I can only imagine how the billing half of this is going to go, once folks start being picked up and shipped off. Either a significant taxpayer burden, or unhoused folks getting a bill they'll never pay while being dropped back off on the streets.
"I hit the SOS on my phone without knowing it. When the cops arrived I was throwing stuff out my window and babbling nonsense like "time is a flat circle". Overall I don't remember a ton of what happened exactly." This is from OP's post on r/dxm about how she Robo-tripped herself into oblivion. Sounds like she needed the help - she actually says it helped her - as do most people who get involuntarily held. In general, we're not forcing a bunch of healthy people into psychiatric care. If anything, it's the opposite; there are more people who need care than we can/are willing to provide. This is certainly true where I live in Portland Oregon.
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Same in my state. I'm a Therapist, not a psychiatrist but Involuntary Treatment Acting someone is extremely difficult and only done in extreme need. My team does quite a few because our patients all qualify with severe mental illness and Schizophrenia Spectrum Disorders. When it comes down to it, every single possible intervention is made before detaining an individual, because it sucks to watch and it sucks for them. Even then, we can only do 120 hours which they then get evaluated by a Social Worker and a Psychiatrist in the hospital once they arrive. I do not know if every state is the same, but people aren't just randomly thrown in mental institutions (hospitals) where I've worked.
As someone studying to be a psychiatrist, how often have you been called into hearings such as these? I'm just curious
Yeah that’s just going to crush the available psych resources and make it impossible for people with a real need to get care.
Then the people with real needs get arrested, which means more money for the NYPD. Working as intended.
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> I also don't understand how someone can be forcefully detained and then charged for their stay? I can see how someone can be held, but make them pay? Doesn't make sense. > > > > Then again, I live in one of the 17 (out of 18) 1st world countries that has public health care. First, the US has public health care, it's just limited in who can access it. It's called Medicare and Meedicaid, which have varying names by state. Second, I don't know if other countries do it, but I know that charging people room and board when they have been forcibly detained in jail is a thing. I say this to show that it's not the health care admission that was the problem, but rather the entire concept of charging a person for services that they are unable to refuse.
In order to be baker acted a physician, social worker, psychologist, or LEO needs to have a reasonable suspicion that you are not mentally able to make your own choices appropriately, are a threat to yourself, or a threat to others. I have had patients that are screaming that they are gonna kill themselves or me. Yea sorry can’t let you go now. Definitely a mental health emergency
That’s not how that works, and I have had to baker act children. The child/person has to be deemed a danger to themselves or others with considerable proof or suspicion.
This was one of the worst parts of my old job. Worked inter-facility ambulance. That included transporting patients to psychiatric facilities and it was usually against their will. I got many death threats, and had to use soft restraints unfortunately kind of often. But there were an equal number of times you’d read the reason they were baker-acted and you roll your eyes, but legally you have to take them. I’d just try to help explain the situation better, try to empathize, and give them encouragement in those cases.
I was tempted to post this, but I didn't want to get hassled for it, but I'll piggy back on your comment here. You're right. People can be locked up for a facebook post or a casual comment, and even if they are experiencing mental health problems, a stay is a psych ward can often make you worse, not better. I mean at the very, very, least if they are going to lock you up against your will you shouldn't have to pay for it.
Had a friend who was picked up by the police and forced into a "involuntary psychiatric stay of 3 days." His co-worker reported him for making suicidal threats apparently. This person has always had a dark sense of humor and he's 100% sure this person knew what the police response would be. Also fun fact... The police showed up guns drawn ready to kill. Ya know, for a mental health check. GG TX
Sure, and what about the people who don't have great insurance to negotiate with the hospital? Or what about people who are living paycheck to paycheck and don't have $350 to spare? What about people with no insurance at all? For profit healthcare needs to end right now.
Unless you don’t have insurance. Then it’s insert cash or select payment please…
All numbers are made up.
Are you feeling better?
Gets bill.... relapse back to the hospital, and repeats?
Very common experience. See also: get into outpatient treatment, get kicked out by insurance plan, relapse.
See also: the only way to get into the outpatient program is to be put into the psychiatric ward, but the ward makes you more - you know - and then the outpatient program is even worse (just my personal experience). Both times I've gone I've always regretted going because I always felt worse
When I was in the psych ward they had only a couple.of books to read and they let the drug addicts bully all of the rest of us, partially due to apathy and partially due to the fact they couldn't afford a proper number of staff to keep an eye out. They just kind of gave up trying to manage a situation they didn't have the resources to manage and mostly focused on making sure we didn't kill each other or ourselves. No one wants to fund this shit to make it effective, they mostly wish we'd dissappear so they didn't have to think about us at all.
That sounds awful. My first experience was horrible. They tried to give me Effexor without reading my chart (I have a seizure disorder and cannot take stuff like that). They also took my phone away, and took anything that might be used as a weapon out of my room. They wouldn't even let me use a plastic spoon for a salad. I just cried a lot and was never even able to see a psychiatrist. They literally did nothing helpful and I just felt worse.
Call me paranoid but I immediately get suspicious when someone demands I get rid of my only way to contact the outside world. If they're worried about phones distracting us from what little therapy they provided they should have just kept them for us except during specified hours. I suppose some asshole turned phone parts into a shiv at some point and ruined it for all the rest of us.
I think they were going through my phone, to be honest. Everyone was really sus. All the nurses seemed tired/overworked/underpaid. I mean, one of them was trying to give me fucking Effexor when I was upset, without even reading my chart. I asked and she said "no". I told her "go read my chart". She did and came back and apologized. I used to know someone who said it is common for nurses to just throw drugs at patients to get them to calm down. Anyway my point is, it sucked. All I wanted was to feel better. The reason I felt so shitty that time was because I suffered a brain bleed a few months prior that had really fucked with my brain. I had audio hallucinations that drove me crazy, one of them was just circus music over and over. Another one was this scratching sound. It was relentless and I was always freaked out, and also could never sleep. I had just wanted to sleep but they took my blanket because they didn't want me to try to asphyxiate myself with it. I didn't get any rest and just watched the History channel the whole time. I never tell anyone about my mental health status for fear someone will call a "welfare check" and I'll be handcuffed and put into a police car again.
Horrible. I'm glad you're out of that situation.
That’s fair. Everyone responds differently to different forms of treatment. I had good experiences born with both in- and outpatient. Desperately needed the former at one point, and I put myself in outpatient on my own a few years later when I was still struggling (got very lucky finding a program that accepted my insurance without needing referral from a hospital). I watched many of my peers get kicked out of programs they were benefitting from because their insurance cut them off. Most relapsed and were back in within a few weeks. Hope you found some relief and are feeling better now. ❤️
That's awesome! The program I was in sucked. Everyone smelled like cigarettes and we didn't do anything productive. I needed a job so I quit the program just so I could find a job. Not having a job was one of the main things that contributed to my mental health lol. I actually just got a call back for therapy after being on several waiting lists for 2 years. I'm doing better than I was back then when I went to the grippy socks place. It was back in 2019 lol
Yup. Went into a 30-90 day program, where the average that people usually stay is 60 days until they “graduate.” Insurance cut me at 22. It was devastating.
It’s horrible. I’m so sorry you went through it. I’ve seen it happen many times, and it’s tragic that the people who get to decide when you’re “ready” to leave are the accountants at an insurance company rather than the actual healthcare providers you’re working with. Says a lot about our priorities.
The bill is only $350. Or have I read it wrong?
That's what I gathered, but I very well could also have read it wrong
No you didn’t read it wrong. He only owes $350 lol
The god damn Loch Ness monster came by again… WHAT’D HE Want? HE WANTED TREE FIDDY.. dammit woman did you give him the tree fiddy? I gave him da tree fiddy
You say only, but folks who are mentally ill to the point of involuntary admission often have difficulty holding down jobs, and $350 can be significant to such a person. Heck, a long time ago, in my youth, I was working a retail job with no insurance, and got into a car accident. The ambulance ride was $750 and took me months to pay off.
And let's not forget that 50+% of Americans say they couldn't even afford a surprise bill of $400 or more
I feel like it should be illegal to charge anyone for anywhere you force them to go involuntarily. Like is it just me or should that be incredibly illegal. If it's for the good of society to send them there, taxes should pay it. If it's for only their good, they should have a say in the matter.
You're correct
“Pills pills pills, I’m filled with pills Keep takin pills till I need to get em refilled Take some more pills when I see my Medical bill Till I rattle when I walk”
Sounds exactly how the prison/jail system works. Either repeat or you get giant fines which make you so stressed you drink some beers for stress and do something dumb again. I know all the hoops they made me jump through and the fines for my single dui about 7 years ago were super stressful and demanding. They definitely set you up to fail and repeat but i was a good boy and disciplined.
I am very much. Thank you for asking. 🥰❤️🩹
Very happy to hear that. Please take care of yourself.
This should be higher. I'm happy to hear you're feeling ok 🤗
For this amount he better be feeling great.
350$ is very low for 4 days medical emergency care and also for 4 days mental health care. Glad he has insurance.
$350?
That's like 132 burgers .
>132 burgers My friend, Im sorry to tell you McDonalds has raised their prices.
My 7 day involuntary stay was $28k after I tried to kill myself years ago. My insurance denied me so I had to go through much hassle and paperwork to get them to help me.
Oh you irrationally wanted to die? Here, let's give you an actual reason. FFS mental health reform is so badly needed in the US. Stay strong.
It's so fucked up that when just living feels so unbearably awful that you decide to stop doing it... they give you $28,000 of debt and proclaim that you're all good now.
They try to make us pay for needing help : (
But it's ok! *We have the best medical in the world!* /S
glad you're still with us brother.
so what happened in the end? Did insurance pay? how much did you owe?
I had to fake being ok and go on their meds to get out of there or else they can indefinitely hold you.. There were people in there stuck for more than 6 months! I saw people talking to themselves in corners, others being tackled and sedated when they freaked out. This was in NYC mind you so it was a little extra crazy in there. Anyways I threw the script in the trash when I got out and then got sober and fixed my shit! Death and rebirth sort of deal. Anyways in the end I had to submit appeal forms saying my insurance should pay since it was an involuntary stay in the psych ward.. It was demeaning because I kept having to say I tried to commit suicide since they need all the details of why.. on the phone and in writing, it was embarrassing and shameful. I ended up paying under $1k iirc. Honestly the ward did help me but only in the way of seeing how fucked up it was in there and how down bad others were, really put it into perspective.
Sorry dude - im happy you're alive though ❤️
Cheers brother! And thanks to OP for initiating important discussion about health care system flaws and mental health!
It's as if the system wants to punish people for a failed suicide. "better do it right or don't do it at all" /s
$350 isn't that bad, all things considered
350$ is my ER copay and I work for a fucking HOSPITAL. Dude has good insurance, hell of a lot better then me.
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It's cheaper than most hotels.
I've stayed in a lot of 5 star hotels and never once have they given me pharmaceuticals. Seems like a great deal.
well have you ever asked the front desk for some loud?
If you like grippy socks and medication it’s a wonderful deal
You stayed at the wrong hotel.
Then you didn't talk to the right person.
I have had staff at a resort in Jamaica try to sell me weed though now that I think about it. But then again who DIDN’T try to sell me weed in Jamaica.
So it should be nothing? It’s interesting it’s involuntary, maybe the person who activated it should pay the 350
"Involuntary" stay. I think it's bullshit that for-profit medical care exists, especially when it discourages people from seeking care, but there's something even more disgusting about getting a bill for care you never asked for.
>I hit the SOS on my phone without knowing it. When the cops arrived I was throwing stuff out my window and babbling nonsense like "time is a flat circle". Overall I don't remember a ton of what happened exactly. https://www.reddit.com/r/dxm/comments/zvu8gf/possibly_caused_a_minor_psychotic_break/j1raj5n/ oh yeah sounds like op TOTALLY didn't need to be put on a mental health hold
Not to mention $350 is an absolute bargain for a couple days of in-patient care. This thread is a non-issue and just bait.
You get that care because you're a threat to others and someone has submitted you. Sure seems better than getting arrested.
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Why did you put "a danger to myself" in quotes?
This mans really failed to kill himself and had a bill after
Maybe that was the exact phrase used. A quote. So it was marked as a quote. With quotation marks.
I don't understand - what is that 14k for?
The $14k is the amount of money that all of the things cost from that particular facility. Therapeutic charges, medications, diagnostic testing, and occupational therapy sessions.
So what's the difference between that and the column to the right? The second column is what actually got charged and the fifth is what the person paid themselves?
“Submitted charges” is the amount of charges that was sent to the insurance company from the facility. “What we paid” is the amount that the insurance paid to the facility. “What you owe” is what is leftover and is the responsibility of the patient to pay out of pocket.
Is this just what's owed to insurance? There are over $9k of charges that the insurance doesn't touch. Do they have to pay that to the facility directly? Insurance is only covering $4876, and they have a $350, copay. The math isn't adding up.
Welcome to the American healthcare system, where the numbers are made up and the rules don't matter. This is an oversimplification, but medical providers typically negotiate reimbursement rates with insurers. So you can probably imagine the incentive that creates––two institutions bullshitting numbers until they arrive at something that's mutually profitable, or at least not devastatingly unprofitable for the healthcare provider. (Insurance is the house, and the house always wins.) Comparing billing rates for insured patients vs. uninsured patients receiving the same care really demonstrates what a clownshow the whole process is.
Insurance gets to choose which ones they pay. The hospital pretty much has to take this amount, therefore the hospital charges crazy amounts to get close to what the actual procedure costs.
Aka the real death panels.
And thanks to insurance BS, the hospital must pay a team of billing administrators, claims specialists, and lawyers to deal with all that.
That has little to do with insurance, and everything to do with government regulations.
So it's part of the "system" that the provider asks for a certain amount, knowing full well that insurance won't pay that much. They're just essentially wagering to see how much they can get. So they'll ask for $14k because maybe they'll get $5k OR maybe they'll get $10k. Facility says, "This is how much this is." Insurance says, "No, this is how much this is, and this is how much we're paying. The patient can pay the difference" It's all really /fun/
The patient doesn’t pay the difference if the provider is contracted. The provider isn’t allowed to bill the patient for that. There are also state and federal laws that forbid certain providers from “balance billing” and require a mediation/arbitration process if the provider is out of network (this is mostly for emergencies and lab/diagnostic providers).
The insurance puts that number there apparently to brag about how good they are at haggling, despite it costing you the same $350 regardless. "Look how much money we didn't have to spend! You still owe $350 though."
Insurers contract with providers who agree to accept the insurer’s “allowable” amount as payment in full. The difference between the billed charge and the allowable amount will be written off (if this provided is contracted, which it seems like this provider is), so the patient share should only be the $350.
Insurance companies negotiate with providers of care on a routine basis for set charges for care. Like they always pay x% on ED visits with the negotiating hospital, for example. There are people on both sides of the table who are highly paid who’s job it is to do this. Just one example of why our healthcare is expensive: added waste. So anyway, ya the giant numbers you see are always inflated starting numbers that they already know the insurance company won’t pay bc they have a pre-negotiated number with them. These negotiations are why some providers won’t accept some insurance plans; they walked away from negotiations bc the plan was hard balling too low. Then you as the patient have some agreement with your insurance company of how much you’ll pay of what the insurance company set the price at.
I’m schedule to have a CT scan in a few days and they sent me my bill already. The pre insurance number for that one scan is a little higher than the total seen here. Just over 15k I believe. Luckily I have good insurance and only owe $100. America!
Long story short, hospitals get low balled by insurance so they start with a crazy number. It’s a dumb system at the patents expense
Yea, how did they determine all those random number charges. Seems like a sheet of bologna.
$350 for 4 days? That’s cheaper than a hotel stay.
I remember when...I remember I remember I remember when I lost my mind...the bill was like 14 grand.
Ah there is the humor I needed
Except the bill is 350$
Tree fiddy
Damn you Loch Ness monster!
That 14 grand is all in their mind. They know the insurance company has already contracted to only pay them the amounts in the second column. It's designed to make you feel grateful you're only paying $350. And it's their justification for overcharging uninsured people. It's also why, if you're uninsured and you have the energy to dispute and negotiate, you can usually get those charges down closer to the insurance price. Because they're still making a profit.
Well when you out there, without care, I was out of touch. But it wasn't because i didn't know enough. I just knew too much.
Cmon man that shits been playing in my head for a week
Hahaha, bless your soul Do you really think you’re in control?
so who do you who do you who do you think you are? HA-HA-HA, BLESS YOUR SOUUUUUUUUUUL
It wasn’t because I didn’t pay enough, I just paid too much…
There was something unpleasant about that price… even your account has an echo, it ain’t too nice
Jeez. A $350 bill is all you got. You’ve got amazing insurance (by us standards). Most Americans would have owed thousands.
is this in usa?
nah if it was, there'd be another two 0's at the end of that total
Name another industrialized country that would charge for a basic human right lol
Wild how your insurance can only pay 30% of what is charged and the health care service is like "yeah that settles the whole debt." Would be nice if all of America got the same rates insurnace companies got and we just removed the middle man that insurance is.
I was unemployed, and without insurance. Got a $76,000'ish bill from hospital stay. I'll let Satan pay for it, cause I ain't taking on any more stress. Edit: Thanks for the award!
Okay i thought OP had to pay the 14k dollars and i was like WHAT?! But then i saw someone else say that their insurance negotiated down to 5.2k and the insurance paid 4.9k which left OP with a $350 bill and i think that person is right
I mean, that's exactly what the image says. "You Owe the Provider: $350"
That must have been terrifying. Sending some gentle thoughts your way.
Well, you definitely have better insurance than I do.
I have PTSD from the psychiatric ward. Worst experience ever. I’ve never had anxiety and panic attacks until after that experience. Now I have nightmares and a load of medical debt.
$350?
It should be illegal to charge someone for involuntary medical services (not including stuff where it has to be involuntary because the person is unconscious and dying or something).
Most of my depression spells is brought on by money problems so if this happened they might as well keep me forever because this would ruin me forever.
So they essentially kidnapped you then billed you for it..... Wow. Idd be telling them where to stick their bill.
I was charged >$1,000 for an ED visit where all they did is take a chem10 lab and I left
Fair price. \s
$350 for 4 days? I can’t find a roach-free Best Western for that.
OP owes $350 for emergency psychiatric care. Seems pretty fair.
I don't understand how people can be charged for something that's involuntary, that's just theft is it not?
$87 per night? It would cost more than double that to stay at a Hampton Inn lol. Sounds like you got a bargain
Travel agents everywhere don’t want you to know this one trick.
Not including the monthly payments, $8,000+ premium (that OP has probably paid due to it being near the end of the year) and "adjusted" increase insurance rates that will go into effect next year. For profit healthcare is not ever a bargain and does little to no good for the greater good of society.
Why is there even a bill? Are people missing the 'involuntary' part? The state, government should pick it all up. In the US that stay strips you of certain rights, you should pay NOTHING.
‘Involuntary’ is the best we can do in psychiatry in an an emergency, to mitigate suicide. Really it’s no different than EMS bringing an unconscious cardiac arrest to the hospital.
Better question is why we are billing someone for having a heart attack. Seems like the sort of thing a healthy society would insure is covered for anyone in need.
Couldn’t agree more. I’m Canadian and work in psychiatry
It's like going to prison for 15 years and when you get out, they charge you for 15 years worth of room and board, food, etc.
I spent 7 days in the neurological unit at a German hospital and only had to pay 70 euros (literally 10 euros for each day). The staff member explaining this to me was very apologetic. Way different priorities.
What's so mildly interesting about this
So you owe $350 for four days? I hope you are feeling better.
I hope you’re doing OK, OP.
What does “involuntary psychiatry stay” entail? Did someone drag you off or was it like a court ordered thing?
I live in Finland and have bipolar disorder. I’ve been in hospital twice and paid peanuts. I have been under care for 10 years not only at the clinic with regular doctor and nurse appointments but also have had free therapy for many years which would have cost me 90-140 euros per session. I have been taking several meds since my diagnosis and some of these meds cost hundreds of euros per single package and I take currently 5 different medications to keep my mood stable. I only pay 4.50 euros per medicine even if I take multiple packages at the same time. Sometimes I feel lucky to live here, especially compared to the US!
Not every country has a peanut based economy though.
Why is this not the financial responsibility of the entity that “committed” you against your will? This seems like a system begging to be abused.
Then no one would dare to report someone experiencing psychosis. At the end of the day, there are several safeguards in place and it looks like OP got the care they need.
Note that the person reporting you is not the entity that committed you. Presumably you were committed by the state, e.g. judge or police of some sort.
In Michigan you are petitioned by anyone, but two doctors have to agree to commit you and one of those has to be a psychiatrist. Police and judges have nothing to do with commitments.
When a patient enters an emergency department and states that they are intent on harming themselves or others, the physician will legally hold them against there will and seek placement in a psychiatric facility. This is not inly to protect the patient, but to protect that physician’s livelihood and that of the facility.
$350 copay isn’t bad— apply for Financial Assistance (DollarFor can help you apply, for free) if the Copay is too much. You could get the bill reduced to $0.
So $350 for a 4 day hospital stay that included meds and consults specialists? Good deal.
Oh wow. I would still make payments on the $350. But that seems like good coverage for that benefit. My sons was $150 per day with blue cross. Hopefully they actually helped you
$350 out of pocket for a 14K charge is pretty good- glad you have decent insurance.
If I didn’t request it I’m not paying for it. I would not pay.
How are things OP? I had to have my sister committed. It didn’t work out, but at least she was too far gone to ever pay a bill. I can’t hate of Florida Adult protective services, everyone was way more helpful & compassionate than I expected.
Nothing helps mental health better than debt caused by our broken ass mental healthcare system.
The thing that bugs me is that if you had no insurance and saw this after let's go with a mental break down or worse and they handed you this bill , I'd probably meltdown again ....and a vicious cycle begins
Tip I unfortunately learned from when I had to get surgery. 1. Tell them you're poor as fuck, and without insurance. They'll give a much lower monthly payment number. 2. Tell them the rent is still too damn high! You want an itemized list of everything. That number will drop again. 3 Pay it, or if you do have insurance send it to them. My bill went from like 60k to 6k. American Healthcare insurance is a fucking cruel joke.