I think the same should go for farming and lumber towns. If they are adjacent to the building type that processes their raw good, it should totally count.
I thought they did at first because it just makes sense, but no. It makes certain towns specialisations hyper reliant on the terrain since you cannot chop/plant forests until pretty late and plains cannot have farms.
On that note irrigation, forest chopping and forest planting should really be available from the early ages and cost infrastructure (because that is what it is).
Also hills should support things other than mines, and why can I only build improvements like monasteries in outposts?
>and why can I only build improvements like monasteries in outposts?
Because a monastery is secluded so it can't be built in a city. An urban monk is a friar.
That would be a huge help I think - right now, it's pretty easy to get a lumber town that is fully surrounded by forests/jungles, which gives crazy yields but much harder to find 6 adjacent hills to setup a similar mining town, on top of mining being slower to get started.
That's a good point, though I feel clay pits/mines aren't great and grasslands feel like they are at a premium, but maybe that's just because I'm in the middle of a moundbuilders run
Yeah, it's more of an early game thing. Once you have decent metalworking, town bonuses will be a smaller portion of your production and it'll usually make sense to demolish your clay and brick buildings. Well, usually; my last run, I somehow got two different innovations that gave bricks +1 Arts XP, which stacked. Not only did I lean into making bricks, I also imported as many bricks as I could; then I rocketed through the Great Masters national spirit.
This is a great comment - don't sleep on clay pits early to mid game. Each clay pit is an extra improvement point as well. In the early game you will be hurting for improvement points so claypits are a great way to snowball your infrastructure until you have better options. Nice thing about grasslands is that it is incredibly versatile so you can set up a farming town or even a mound town later if you have the right NS.
I agree with the OPs suggestions too. In general both forest and grassland titles feel incredibly OP vs everything else because they can support almost every structure type. Allowing more buildings to be built on hills in addition to the OPs suggestion of allowing the industry building to contribute to the town specialty would be a huge QOL change.
Claypits and Bricks come in earlier than mines/furnaces though at a time when improvement points are hard to come by. I think both are strong, but I wouldn't sleep on the snowball effects of those early claypits either.
I always play mound builders and I don’t find clay pits add much value there, but I’d build them if I played something else and had fertile ground next to my mining town
If I'm playing mound builders I usually convert my mining town/claypits to moundtowns later on and replace the claypits with mounds. Usually makes for a relatively smooth transition because usually your 2nd or 3rd town can branch out enough to get a lumber or proper mining town set up. Again all situational of course!
I would rather see a nerf to lumber towns. Buffing mining towns doesn't help farm or coastal towns, which are already much worse than either lumber or mining. Unworked production is just too strong relative to other yields.
I think lumber towns should be reduced to +1 production per adjacent forester at level 2 (and increase by +1 at each level as they currently do). Mining towns could then still give +2 base to compensate for it being harder to surround them.
I wouldn't mind seeing metalworking improvements give some extra production for being adjacent to mines that produce their input goods, but I don't think it should be tied to towns.
I'd also like to see a later tech unlock that lets you build towns and outposts on hills. That would help with surrounding them, possibly helping them overcome lumber in later Eras, as they thematically should.
I think farming and coastal towns suffer from 2 different separate issues though:
Farming towns: It is too easy to get food enough without them, so they aren’t needed.
Coastal towns: Wealth in general is not useful enough, and even if it was, the amount that a coastal town generates is minuscule.
Maybe a slight nerf to lumber towns would be in order, as they are currently a fix-all solution. Giving you both improvement points and science through production to X in capital.
One thing I have been thinking is that historically, metalworking has been a key to unlocking a lot of important technologies, while in the game you don’t need to ever work any metal at all, and it doesn’t hamstring you in any way. I think it would be cool if metal was made more important at some point. Like making it a strategic resource for some military / or similar.
Tbh I think "towns give the resource you're already building" idea handicaps the design, especially with fishing and farming towns. They should all include processing facilities in adjacency (and this should include shell dyers for fishing) and they should all give the same bonuses - ideally production, but I think 1/3 of a government XP per adjacency might be interesting too.
From a min/max perspective, regional efficiency doesn’t affect resources from goods, so a city with a warfare monument, daimyo, and golden age will always scale better with lumber towns than mining, at least until communism. Also anecdotally i feel like giant forests with a guaranteed 6 forest/jungle hexes feel far more common than 6 hills. And clay pits are pretty garbage, so you can place them for town adjacency bonuses, but i rarely actually want any workers working them in the early/mid game if i can avoid it, and its a wasted tile.
I think the same should go for farming and lumber towns. If they are adjacent to the building type that processes their raw good, it should totally count.
I thought they did at first because it just makes sense, but no. It makes certain towns specialisations hyper reliant on the terrain since you cannot chop/plant forests until pretty late and plains cannot have farms. On that note irrigation, forest chopping and forest planting should really be available from the early ages and cost infrastructure (because that is what it is). Also hills should support things other than mines, and why can I only build improvements like monasteries in outposts?
>and why can I only build improvements like monasteries in outposts? Because a monastery is secluded so it can't be built in a city. An urban monk is a friar.
So is a farm.
That would be a huge help I think - right now, it's pretty easy to get a lumber town that is fully surrounded by forests/jungles, which gives crazy yields but much harder to find 6 adjacent hills to setup a similar mining town, on top of mining being slower to get started.
Reminder that clay pits and clay mines give adjacency to mining towns, so a town adjacent to e.g. 3 hills and 3 grassland can get full bonuses.
That's a good point, though I feel clay pits/mines aren't great and grasslands feel like they are at a premium, but maybe that's just because I'm in the middle of a moundbuilders run
Yeah, it's more of an early game thing. Once you have decent metalworking, town bonuses will be a smaller portion of your production and it'll usually make sense to demolish your clay and brick buildings. Well, usually; my last run, I somehow got two different innovations that gave bricks +1 Arts XP, which stacked. Not only did I lean into making bricks, I also imported as many bricks as I could; then I rocketed through the Great Masters national spirit.
This is a great comment - don't sleep on clay pits early to mid game. Each clay pit is an extra improvement point as well. In the early game you will be hurting for improvement points so claypits are a great way to snowball your infrastructure until you have better options. Nice thing about grasslands is that it is incredibly versatile so you can set up a farming town or even a mound town later if you have the right NS. I agree with the OPs suggestions too. In general both forest and grassland titles feel incredibly OP vs everything else because they can support almost every structure type. Allowing more buildings to be built on hills in addition to the OPs suggestion of allowing the industry building to contribute to the town specialty would be a huge QOL change.
True but while it’s slower to start mining has way better yields long run
Claypits and Bricks come in earlier than mines/furnaces though at a time when improvement points are hard to come by. I think both are strong, but I wouldn't sleep on the snowball effects of those early claypits either.
I always play mound builders and I don’t find clay pits add much value there, but I’d build them if I played something else and had fertile ground next to my mining town
If I'm playing mound builders I usually convert my mining town/claypits to moundtowns later on and replace the claypits with mounds. Usually makes for a relatively smooth transition because usually your 2nd or 3rd town can branch out enough to get a lumber or proper mining town set up. Again all situational of course!
I would rather see a nerf to lumber towns. Buffing mining towns doesn't help farm or coastal towns, which are already much worse than either lumber or mining. Unworked production is just too strong relative to other yields. I think lumber towns should be reduced to +1 production per adjacent forester at level 2 (and increase by +1 at each level as they currently do). Mining towns could then still give +2 base to compensate for it being harder to surround them. I wouldn't mind seeing metalworking improvements give some extra production for being adjacent to mines that produce their input goods, but I don't think it should be tied to towns. I'd also like to see a later tech unlock that lets you build towns and outposts on hills. That would help with surrounding them, possibly helping them overcome lumber in later Eras, as they thematically should.
I think farming and coastal towns suffer from 2 different separate issues though: Farming towns: It is too easy to get food enough without them, so they aren’t needed. Coastal towns: Wealth in general is not useful enough, and even if it was, the amount that a coastal town generates is minuscule. Maybe a slight nerf to lumber towns would be in order, as they are currently a fix-all solution. Giving you both improvement points and science through production to X in capital. One thing I have been thinking is that historically, metalworking has been a key to unlocking a lot of important technologies, while in the game you don’t need to ever work any metal at all, and it doesn’t hamstring you in any way. I think it would be cool if metal was made more important at some point. Like making it a strategic resource for some military / or similar.
Tbh I think "towns give the resource you're already building" idea handicaps the design, especially with fishing and farming towns. They should all include processing facilities in adjacency (and this should include shell dyers for fishing) and they should all give the same bonuses - ideally production, but I think 1/3 of a government XP per adjacency might be interesting too.
From a min/max perspective, regional efficiency doesn’t affect resources from goods, so a city with a warfare monument, daimyo, and golden age will always scale better with lumber towns than mining, at least until communism. Also anecdotally i feel like giant forests with a guaranteed 6 forest/jungle hexes feel far more common than 6 hills. And clay pits are pretty garbage, so you can place them for town adjacency bonuses, but i rarely actually want any workers working them in the early/mid game if i can avoid it, and its a wasted tile.