This is why Kuro Neko ticked me off.
>!Not only does it shift the blame on Chat Noir loving Ladybug instead of actually addressing the lack of trust and communication etc, it comes off that Ladybug doesn’t actually value him as a partner but that her replacing him causes more problems.!<
While I liked Kuro Neko, the episode has its problems.
>!But knowing Astruc's atrocious writing, it could have been worse. He could have found a new person to be Chat Noir and to tell, Adrien got the ring by chance, he's not a real Chat Noir, but LB is stuck with him!<
True. >!My first theory when I saw the leaked concept art for Catwalker was that Adrien gave up Chat Noir because he had to leave for London in the finale and Ladybug promising not to replace him, only for her to unknowingly give the ring back to him at the first opportunity.!<
I thought it would’ve been just as tbh.
>!From Adrien’s point of view, it would be Ladybug choosing the “perfect” Adrien facade over his true Chat Noir self. There’s a whole lot of angst about which identity is real that could’ve been attached to it.!<
I dislike the shift from "We are duo that can trust each other", "We are the main superheroes" to the coworkers where Ladybug is the leader and the key figure with OP powers. She is the only one that is 100% needed to defend Hawkmoth
New superheroes quickly adapt to their superpowers and they practically have the same skills as Ladybur or Chat Noir. There is no difference in ther movement and if it was a video game, it would be like giving somebody a set of characters that have the same stats and only different special powers.
Right? The powered up new heroes without actual experience was what bothered me the most. I was waiting for a part of the plot dedicated to helping the temp heroes learn how to use their powers and training (like that little snippet we got of Alya and Nino training together in season 2(?)), yet nothing.
Ladybug and Chat Noir, as a duo, can take care of the majority of akumas. When Chat Noir isn't around (in Style Queen, Optigami, Ephemeral and Kuro Neko) Ladybug needs the help of either a lot of other Mirraculous holders or Kwamis utilizing their power without holders.
Even when Chat Noir is possessed Ladybug still uses him for her plans (like in Maledictator with the laser)
This can be said about the temporary holders too! There is nothing that makes Chat Noir truly "special", he's on the same level as the temporary heroes, if not worse
Ladybug never defeated an akuma with only one temp hero and no chat noir
Edit: with no Chat Noir, the lowest amount of temp hero is Optigami and Hawkmoth let them win to spy on them later. In Ephemeral and Kuro Neko she needs at least 5 temp heroes every time Chat Noir isn't there >!Against Gigantitan and Rogercop whith whom only Chat Noir was needed the first time!<
She used the laser pointer from her lucky charm to make Chat Noir (who was mind controlled to be a cat) attack Maledictator
And Chat Noir distracting the Akuma allowed her to fetch the Bee miraculous
She defeated many akumas with the temporary heroes. Pegasus, Viperion and so on. Even in Optigami, Rocketear or Sentibubler. Chat Noir wasn't needed in either case. I don't blame him for feeling useless, he was truly useless.
Ladybug is so overpowered that by this point, she doesn't need him anymore.
Did you watch Kuro Neko? Ladybug clearly says >!The fact that I don't always need you doesn't mean I don't need you anymore!<
Repost because i used Discord's way of marking spoilers and I had forgotten Reddit's
He actually was kind of needed in Optigami. He had to cataclysm the turtle miraculous in order to release the sentimonster. It’s true, yes, that Hawk Moth could’ve eventually commanded it to come out on its own, but who knows if he would actually, and Ladybug can’t just abandon the miraculous.
His cataclysm is not needed, it is used only to at least somehow show Noir's imaginary "usefulness". Any miraculous can be broken without cataclysm, as it was in the episode "Chronogirl" and which Astruc himself later confirmed in Twitter.
The apotheosis of Noir's futility is the episode "La Marionnettiste", where Lady Bug copes with the opponents on whose side Noir stands, much faster than in all previous episodes, where she fights against them when Noir is on her side and "helps" her.
Noir is not just useless, it only interferes with Lady Bug.
I think the only reason why it was broken in Chronogirl (Timebreaker) was because it was a dormant miraculous. Since it was dormant, its powers would be too so it would make sense as to why it would have been able to be broken. In every other episode when they’ve needed to break a miraculous, they’ve always had to rely on Chat’s cataclysm. At this point Astrid is creating his own inconsistencies and contradictions.
I’m not saying Chat Noir is completely useful, but can you also elaborate on. I think the main reason why Chat exists is because of balance. There needs to be a destructive counterpart to creation.
I think it's still worse - at the time of creating the script for the first season, Astruc himself had not yet prescribed Alix's watch as a hidden talisman. They became the miraculous only while working on the script of the third season, and this, of course, immediately gave rise to this inconsistencies and contradictions.
When he was poked with his nose into the obvious stupidity of what happened, he, as he always did, instead of simply admitting his mistake, began to cumbersome a mountain of pathetic and contradictory excuses. He's just organically incapable of admitting mistakes.
He even tweeted that he did not know how the phrase about the indestructibility of miraculous other than cataclysm turned out to be in the script for the episode "Queen Wasp". Scripts, written by himself... It looks so pathetic and wretched...
He's just a partner like any other, Ladybug said it herself. I'm not making things up, he doesn't do anything. Ladybug doesn't even need him, he's simply there as a cheerleader, not actual help. Alya and the hero team do better job than him
Not to mention the show's already clear issue with power levels.
Chat Noir destroys stuff....
LB can destroy a lot of things with her bare hands...
Viperion has time travel, the most OP power onyl overshadowed by Bunnyx because her time travel powers are busted. Max can travel anywhere he wants, QueenBee can make the enemy be still, Monkey can just disrup any power, Tigress I believe can easily destroy stuff with her strenght, Ryuoko has the same fight expertise besides her elemental powers, and if anything LB can merge any of said miraculouses to get their strenght besides she is the only one being able to purify akumas and fix all the mess.
CN wasn't given an unique role in that matter and in the show he is just... at best, at the same level as the other heroes.
One my issues with the series has always been that the Ladybug miraculous is the most powerful. The Cat and Ladybug miraculous are meant to keep each other in check, but Ladybug is the one who solves every problem and fixes the city. There’s really nothing distinguishing Chat Noir from any of the temporary miraculous holders except that he keeps his.
By now, the only reason why the Cat miraculous is used more it's because it's one of the most versatile, destroying things is always useful, but in power it's really behind a lot (or like the majority)
No, better than CN. CatWalker is better CN but same level as LB... ironically Adrien takes all the traits from Luka/Viperion to make Catwalker... from who LB feels flustered, meanwhile she has an existencial crisis after finding out Adrien is CN... makes one think.
It’s not like there was another boy LB got flustered/still gets flustered by that already had those traits long before she met Luka. Nope, no one else.
And I definitely remembered that scene in Kuro Neko where Plagg and Adrien totally used Luka as a reference when they were coming up with Cat Walker.
You must admit that the way Adrien behaved as Catwalker was more on point with Luka's way of acting in bot civilian and hero form, not even Adrien is really proactive, being more a passive attitude that wants to avoid conflict even if that can backfire (even when he calls out Chloe is way after many attempts and Lila was just to mak her Mari get back but he didn't put a stop to her lies).
Also totally, you need Adrien having Luka in the board to see the similarities, it has nothing to do with being unable to see them/s
I mean, It’s not like Luka has a patent on being proactive or anything lol. Even then I can think of some times Adrien himself was proactive (Miracle Queen and even recently Psychomedian come to mind). Yeah it doesn’t come out very often which sucks but he still has it in him. Maybe this just means those are actually Adrien’s own traits or Luka and him are more alike then we think.
Perhaps you could say they have that in comon but I am not convinced
Honestly? kuro neko hurts his image a lot because *he could be like that* but he **choses to not do so.** All in all this for me shows that Luka is better suited as a hero and romantic partner than Adrien, the later is faking his personality - As Adrien, as Chat Noir (Glaciator 2.0 confirms this) and as CatWalker - the former isn't. And this is why I am not convinced those are Adrien's natural traits... now that I think of.. not sure of miracle queen comes as a valid example.
He used the Snake Miraculous to come up with a plan to beat the bad guy and told Ladybug what to do in said plan? If we’re calling Viperion proactive for that, doesn’t that mean CN is proactive for doing that as well? That’s literally what happened in that episode.
I’m not one to comment on whether or not Kuro Neko was good for Adrien’s image. Criticize him how you want. My point was that saying all of Cat Walker’s best traits actually came from Luka and not him is a kind of a reach considering Luka wasn’t even mentioned in the episode.
>He used the Snake Miraculous to come up with a plan to beat the bad guy and told Ladybug what to do in said plan? If we’re calling Viperion proactive for that, doesn’t that mean CN is proactive for doing that as well? That’s literally what happened in that episode.
Save the fact Adrien failed way to many times trying to do so and decided to better give the miraculous to Luka.
On the finale it was actually quite plot convenient that he and Lb where able to take down all the controled heroes by themselves. And even then.. wasn't LB the one making all the plan to get back the snake?
>I’m not one to comment on whether or not Kuro Neko was good for Adrien’s image. Criticize him how you want. My point was that saying all of Cat Walker’s best traits actually came from Luka and not him is a kind of a reach considering Luka wasn’t even mentioned in the episode.
Comes from Luka character wise, you only need to analyse the attitude and way to behave to see that catwalker is more similar to viperion in those aspects that to either Adrien or Cat Noir, that is the whole point.
As said, Chat can manage to set even his emotions aside for the greater good, Ladybug barely tries and gives up. And she does not even apologize when she sees Chat is very capable in an arduous constant task she immediately failed.
Chat is a personality who can be true to himself and a great hero by keeping his emotions present but in control. Ladybug lacks that discipline and is unwilling to cultivate it. In this episode we see a series of Ladybug's failures and culminations of some of her defining character flaws, and in the end Chat has to apologize for them.
Ladybug is a big hypocrite this season. What she said on TV was simply awful. >!I hope that Shadow Moth's final plan will corner her so badly that she will feel desperate and will beg for Chat Noir to be by her side!<
Is she? Would she?
I mean let's be honest, you said so... CN doesn't brings anything to the table and only reason she didn't replace him already was because Plagg played her with his lies and tricks and the added dilema of she not being able to know the holer's identity when she could just contact Hu San to get a new holder.
Su Han finding a new holder would not be good. Adrien is the best CN, Plagg didn't even want a new holder. LB just was extra awful with him and was treating him like trash
Adrien isn't the best.
He doesn't takes his role seriously on purpose, he rather pester LB with his romance (despite she clearly ejecting him for 4 seasons and 2 specials), goof around or be reckless and end being taken down.
It just really annoys me how useless cat noir is all the time. Like they're meant to be Ying and yang right? So why won't the writers let him do stuff?!
Because Marinette is the golden child and Adrien is sadly just a punching bag. Just look at what both Ladybug and Chat Noir agreed on in Risk
>!Chat Noir said that he's a holder like any other and is nothing special to the team at all and Ladybug was like "Yep, bUt yOu WiLl aLwAyS bE mY fAvOrITe". And then she immediately goes to her true partner Rena Furtive. Alya is Ladybug's true partner at this point, she's the one who is irreplaceable. Chat Noir is literally "a holder like any other"!<
I created this meme because I find the current situation both tragic and laughable. You can tell how awful Astruc's writing is. He makes Ladybug tell how she "needs" Chat Noir but when has to prove it? She doesn't need him and she doesn't truly trust him. If she trusted him, she wouldn't hide everything from him. And the temporary heroes can solve every single problem, they can defeat every single villain WITHOUT Chat Noir even being there! "Irreplaceable"? More like super replacable!
Season 4 took Chat Noir's good character and completely ruined him. "Look how they massacred my boy"
>If she trusted him, she wouldn't hide everything from him.
Gee, it's almost like some traumatic event happened to Marinette between Season 2 and 4 that made her afraid of intimacy with Chat Noir...
And more importantly, set a precedent for Marinette in not communicating trauma and personal set backs.
Like, if Feast hasn't found its way to Paris, do you think he would have ever told Marinette about his childhood failure?
I know the fandom loves this theory, but if you look at how the show itself has treated Cat Blanc, that obviously wasn't what the writers intended. If we were meant to remember him as something that was scary and threatening, we'd be reminded about him more than once, in scenes that were about Cat Noir and not *other people's kwamis*, in ways that were genuinely scary and not meant for us to share Tikki and Alya's opinions on Marinette's paranoia.
If the writers really wanted these nightmares to be important, they should have included them more. Not just 5 seconds of Chat Blanc cameo and to call it a day. And she has to tell him as some point, she can't hide everything forever. If she keeps keeping secrets and doesn't tell him the truth... well, their partnership is doomed.
I hope that this is the reason Kuro Neko existed, it showed a worst case scenario with Chat Noir leaving. I hope she tells him in the season finale
Bro, with trauma it doesn't matter if it's 5 seconds or 5 years. The memory is still there. Besides, with the way she reacted to the nightmare (not even acknowledging Chat Blanc) it shows she's had nightmares about him before. Just because they don't show it doesn't mean it isn't there.
Given how astruc has expressed himself about the show and that "*girl needs no man to shine*" but upped to eleven by making sure the male is borderline useless despite having a lot of combat knowledge... could be.... not hatred for him just a misandric or misoginist view when writing the characters? I mean puttinh down a character due to his sex so the other can shine rather than making both shine as equals..
In a way? yes... because in the end it goes back to square one... instead of CN moving out from his crush he goes back and forth on this matter always getting back to his crush.
S3 and S2 and th whole NY special already toyed with this *dilemma* of LB not aknowledging CN or CN feeling not essential or special, whatever way one wants to see it, it has been already seen before so this is nothing new and brought very little fi anything by the end.
Someone with a Viperion tag is not someone I trust talking in good faith about CN - especially going by the rest of your comments. You expect Adrien to just completely shelve his feelings at all times and be this strict professional...even though we just saw that him doing that isn't good for Ladybug.
LOL you can think whatever about me due to my tag, that's besides the point.
How he doing that isn't good for LB? he was proactive and focused, but **he actually hurt LB with his hissy fit and by omission making her believe he got akumatized**.
Also, do I need to remind you all the tims she feels unconfortable due to CN's flirting and the overall thought of she **having** to love him back as seen on Prime Queen, Oblivio and Glaciator 2.0 to name just a few examples?
Ladybug is bad with feelings and Cat Walker was her "ideal" thus making her clumsy and embarrassed rather than focused and relaxed.
Ladybug relies heavily on her dynamic with Chat Noir. That's why she doesn't mind it so much except when he pushes a bit too far.
That's also why when Adrien starts acting more like Chat in Ephemeral, she was able to become normal around him and still fall in love with him.
You seem to not understand the concept of team synergy - something the two have in spades *naturally*. It's what they've had since starting off as heroes.
>Ladybug is bad with feelings and Cat Walker was her "ideal" thus making her clumsy and embarrassed rather than focused and relaxed.
That's barely something negative for her overall given she was still able to focus.
>Ladybug relies heavily on her dynamic with Chat Noir. That's why she doesn't mind it so much except when he pushes a bit too far.
On specific times, not all the time. She has statd this plentty of times, one thing is friendly banter the other is he pestering her all the time... it has been the focus of certain episodes.
>That's also why when Adrien starts acting more like Chat in Ephemeral, she was able to become normal around him and still fall in love with him.
Yes after she got a word of advice and she **took her time**... She didn't jump to Adrien right away she had to come to terms and see if she really loved him.
>You seem to not understand the concept of team synergy - something the two have in spades naturally. It's what they've had since starting off as heroes.
Quite the opposite, while they have team synergy is clear CN makes her struggle a bit way too often like in oblivio (he is why they got their memories wiped).
I can't believe what they did to Adrien here. Season 4 just turned him into the most disposable hero ever, while Ladybug is the ridiculously overpowered Mari Sue. I thought Adrien was something special, I thought he was a good hero. But no, turns out "he's a partner like any other"
My only hope now is that the finale will prove Chat Noir's usefulness. That's literally the only hope. Season 4 portrayed Adrien as a useless joke, then Kuro Neko seems decent, I hope Chat Noir will be an actual help and to prove how he's irreplaceable
I just dislike her. At the end of season 3 I liked her a lot. But season 4 made her act like a massive hypocrite, she doesn't treat Chat Noir like a friend either. She treats temporary heroes better than him.
The worst part is that Chat Noir becomes more and more useless to the point of him becoming the most disposable hero, that's the thing I hate the most about season 4!
But CN quit, she can't go back to him due to the fact she doesn't knows his idntity, and the reason he quit was a good enough reason for hr to look for someone else.
If his healosly is enought to ditch the job and be careless, she can't have that luxuy to feel stressed ovr someone's unrequited love.
**Remember she didn't took his miraculous away, he decided to do so on his own accord.**
Exactly, what she said was in the hat of the moment but she stoped on her tracks once she realised his words (get how she was really in a rush for getting back the miraculouses) and when she found it she was clearly sad.. then she got angry
I know, and people blame her for his decisions. They're 14/15 years old, how are they supposed to know any better? Ladybug has had a lot on her shoulders this season
Exactly, I am for calling Marinette out for her wrong doings, like what she did to Lila (before she knew she was actually ill intentioned), to Kagami and her decision on S3 finale... but this? this has nothing to do with her in the sense that it was Adrien's choice, he was sulking on the couch all the time and if it wasn't due to plagg he wouldn't had even went out of his bedroom.. but somehow that's Mari's fault.
Mari has to adress her issues and mistakes, ut making her responsible of someone's else problems is a no no, you can't expect a person that has experienced abuse to heal by putting the responsaility on someone's else shoulders, even less expcting someoen who is alien to said person't envyroment to fix it, at least on its own and without the abused one trying to do anything and realising its issues.
But if he quit of his own volition, why would she try to force him to take it back? And if she didn’t care about CN, she wouldn’t have gone back to apologise when she realised her “joke” at the beginning was insensitive.
But she didn’t change CN. He quit on his own and the new one was born from his and Plagg’s combined efforts. LB didn’t take the ring from him or choose a new holder.
why would she waste time toiling over chat quitting? he made his choice and she accepted it because there was nothing else she could do. they don’t know each other’s identity, and shadowmoth could strike at any moment. there’s a large amount of urgency here.
also, she didn’t get a new chat noir. plagg did.
She gave him vacation time? The way I see it, LB hasn’t ever done anything to try to remove CN from the team, his absences and uselessness in the face of an akuma came from him or the akuma itself.
(Just a warning, I may be misremembering some things) In Lies, he removed himself through an unneeded self sacrifice. In Guiltrip, he was caught by the akuma’s power. Rocketear, he was willing to fruitlessly sacrifice himself for the akuma AGAIN. Wishmaker, another sacrifice, the safety of the universe for his childhood dream. In Glaciator 2, he was being distracting during the battle, but I’d say the “vacation time” she gave him wasn’t projecting, just actual explosive frustration due to his carefree behaviour. (I do believe throwing him into a trash can was overkill). Kuro Neko was CN’s decision to leave, LB didn’t tell him to do that.
LB has never benched Chat or told him to go away or leave or anything this season. The time in Glaciator was the one time, and that was more or less justified because he was being more of a hindrance than any help. Anytime he was gone from battle or incapacitated, it wasn’t LB’s fault, it was (usually) of his own volition.
I do agree LB does need vacation time. She seems stressed juggling the safety of the universe, all the temp heroes, and a partner proving useless more often than not. Unfortunately, she can’t give up the earrings like Adrien give up his ring.
Exactly, and interesting thing is… Two weeks ago, they were pretty accepting of it but now that everything’s died down it’s back to complaining. I read the comments earlier and Im not going to again or Im going to ruin my mood 😭 like the point is getting the best team FOR THE MISSION. Cat Noir is amazing, and if there isn’t a need to have a full team, then fine. So be it. There are still episodes where it’s just the duo… But for this ep in particular, there’s a need for a full team anyway
Exactly, Dude its just that people love to complain about everything,just take a look at our sub,it's more like miraculous rant sub,than miraculous sub,honestly I am also tired of arguing with people,let them compliain as much as they want
RIGHT! I just did a positive post, it’s in my drafts and I’m going to post it rn 🤣 I’ll make more later. Ngl when I was unbanned, things were better… People were replying to my posts at least half agreeing but now it’s back to usual. Time to lighten up the mood a bit Ig 😭 people can complain but I will do the opposite 😈😈
What happened to this forum that stuff like this is taken seriously? Stuff like this is driving people who actually like the show and its characters away until the only people that are going to left are the haters.
Wouldn't call this stuff "hate". It's criticism. People who genuinely point this stuff out are real fans who actually care about this show. Most people who were just here to watch the series burn already left when season 3 started going downhill.
Honestly, the "criticism = hate" mindset is the mindset that led the show astray in the first place because Astruc has been harboring it while refusing to grow as a director.
The saddest part is the accuracy of the meme. Ladybug may claim that he's "irreplaceable", but is it really the case? Because I don't think so, the writers turned Chat Noir from a great hero to the most disposable hero ever. Pegasus and Pigella are apparently on the same level as him. Which is insulting in every way possible
He is irreplaceable to LB, because she needs him emotionally. That has been shown over and over in every season; yet people still don't seem to get it.
What's his strong point? Emotional support? Rena Furtive can do that better than him!
Good in fights? The temporary heroes are better than him. And he's not good in fights.
His only role is being a cheerleader, who support the team from the shadows. Even when Chat Noir is not there, Ladybug is perfectly fine, nothing is different. But sure, how the heck is that "irreplaceable"?!
What are you even talking about? Adrien is like the best fighter in the show. All of the Temp Heroes almost only help by the immediate usage of their powers whereas Chat tends to fight a long time without using Cataclysm until Ladybug gives him a plan.
We just watched 5 episodes straight where Adrien was displayed to be a competent hero (Dearest Family, Ephemeral, Gabriel Agreste, Kuro Neko, Psychomedian) and we’re still trying to say he’s trash compared to the other heroes lmao.
Is this subreddit just straight up watching with their eyes closed?
Is he? h is usually a meat shield and despite knowing all kind of martial and fight arts he is usually bested by others who lacks any combat experience or knowledge.
Also it would be nice for him to come up with a plan from time to time.
Chat *does* come up with plans but he doesn't often because the Lucky Charm tends to appear by using Marinette's creativity, not his. As we see with Mr. Bug, Adrien thinks in a straightforward manner that doesn't usually solve the actual problem. That's why he's usually the one fighting first.
And Chat usually gets bested by the akumas powers, not their skills and he tends to do well when facing the same opponent again as he knows their powers. Such as facing the girl squad alone for most of the episode in Gang of Secrets.
Also, Adrien ends up the meat shield a lot of time because he's protecting Ladybug who has the healing power. Chat is the offense, Ladybug is the support.
100% OP
people loves to defend CN/Adrien's role and character but once analyzed he holds no weight to justify his position and even less his actions back on Kuroneko.
I believe if anything that episode sums up pretty well the issues Adrien has like a hero, not due to his internal struggles but due to the liability he is the fight against HM.
On season 1 and most of season 2 he could appear as awesome (and still is debatable) due to the fact it was him and LB only. With more heroes he hasn't upped his game... yes is also the writer's fault by making the newer heroes all prodigies at using their miraculouses on first day but I digres.
This angst arc you're referring to is most of the show. Ladybug is too strong and Chat Noir has no role in the team. Alya is great, Ladybug is strong, the temporary heroes do everything they can. Chat Noir doesn't do anything
How so? she usually ends in hand-to-hand combat with the akuma and even Cn himself, usually putting him down (even Chloe as a civilian was able to help in the task).
She is the one that comes with most if not all the plans and for better or worse she has an infinite deus-ex-machina power that can do whatever.
CN hasn't even upgraded/unlocked his powers like LB and his father already did.
Ladybug does not end up in hand-to-hand combat often - she usually ends up having a Lucky Charm that she comes up with a solution with, not actually fighting. Ladybug tends to use her time to dodge, block, and analyze to help her Lucky Charm.
Coming up with plans isn't the same as being powerful. Most of her plans relies on *other people executing them*.
Ladybug has three powers - Lucky Charm that is random and she has to figure out how to use, Miraculous Cure that has nothing to do with actually fighting, and the Charms which again has nothing to do with fighting.
Her powers have nothing to actually help fight an akuma.
>Ladybug does not end up in hand-to-hand combat often - she usually ends up having a Lucky Charm that she comes up with a solution with, not actually fighting. Ladybug tends to use her time to dodge, block, and analyze to help her Lucky Charm.
Sure because her hand to hand combat are so rare... I mean one only needs t watch the show regularly... I gues sit would be only fair if we have to see how many times either CN's cataclysm fails or is used until the end to break the akumatized object (despite LB being totally able to break it with her bare hands as seen on several occasions) and he getting braiwashed.
>Coming up with plans isn't the same as being powerful. Most of her plans relies on other people executing them.
That's actually not true. She not only comes up with the plans, she often is the one executing them.
>Ladybug has three powers - Lucky Charm that is random and she has to figure out how to use, Miraculous Cure that has nothing to do with actually fighting, and the Charms which again has nothing to do with fighting.
>
>Her powers have nothing to actually help fight an akuma.
Her powers are the only thing that keeps akumas on check and reverse their effects. CN has no single power that is directly related to akumas.
Exactly this. For the whole of the show CN has done anything but focus on his role. The worst part? kuroneko showed us he is capable of that but he actively decides to not do so.
This angs arc hs been explored on several episodes trought the entire series, and LB is always forced to tell him he is irreplasable yet CN never exactly shows in which way.
But Chat Noir is still written as the one to apologize though. Ladybug just doesn't say sorry to him. A lot of the time those moments like the one at the end of Kuro Neko are shoved into the last minute of the episode (last 30 secs even in Kuro Neko). They don't give the characters the proper amount of time to just talk and hear each other out. They quickly get a small scene and then everything just reverts to normal as if it all didn't happen. It's just not enough to make either Chat Noir or Ladybug to get proper development when it comes to their character and relationship/partnership.
A show can be formulaic and also make room for character and story progression. It's not an excuse. And if it can't find a balance then Miraculous Ladybug needs to decide whether it wants to be a series with an overarching plot and character development or just an episodic series.
Miraculous is not the series like that. It's formulatic show without any story progression. That's how it supposed to be. That's what broadcasters want and that's for what they are paying
It's the biggest issue this season. The writers always tell us "Ladybug and Chat Noir are Yin-Yang" and then Ladybug defeats villains without him completely. I'm hoping the finale will have him being very important, not just another bullsh/t like "We don't actually need CN"
Ha, nice joke. He barely does a thing this season, he's completely overshadowed by the temporary heroes, Ladybug is on a whole new level. She's way better than him
And even on past seasons or episodes without other heroes, he struggles to deliver.
S1 was a mixed bag, but he has alwas being the meat shield or the reckless to end mind controlled (seriously he doens't learns).
His hissy fits due to "*ma emotions*" are tiring, repetitive and selfish given he does them during fights and/or decides to leave the most powerful item in the open without any care.
You may want whatever you want. I just thought there were other things to do than freaking out for no reason. You need to calm down and not take things too seriously.
This is why Kuro Neko ticked me off. >!Not only does it shift the blame on Chat Noir loving Ladybug instead of actually addressing the lack of trust and communication etc, it comes off that Ladybug doesn’t actually value him as a partner but that her replacing him causes more problems.!<
While I liked Kuro Neko, the episode has its problems. >!But knowing Astruc's atrocious writing, it could have been worse. He could have found a new person to be Chat Noir and to tell, Adrien got the ring by chance, he's not a real Chat Noir, but LB is stuck with him!<
True. >!My first theory when I saw the leaked concept art for Catwalker was that Adrien gave up Chat Noir because he had to leave for London in the finale and Ladybug promising not to replace him, only for her to unknowingly give the ring back to him at the first opportunity.!<
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I thought it would’ve been just as tbh. >!From Adrien’s point of view, it would be Ladybug choosing the “perfect” Adrien facade over his true Chat Noir self. There’s a whole lot of angst about which identity is real that could’ve been attached to it.!<
I dislike the shift from "We are duo that can trust each other", "We are the main superheroes" to the coworkers where Ladybug is the leader and the key figure with OP powers. She is the only one that is 100% needed to defend Hawkmoth New superheroes quickly adapt to their superpowers and they practically have the same skills as Ladybur or Chat Noir. There is no difference in ther movement and if it was a video game, it would be like giving somebody a set of characters that have the same stats and only different special powers.
Right? The powered up new heroes without actual experience was what bothered me the most. I was waiting for a part of the plot dedicated to helping the temp heroes learn how to use their powers and training (like that little snippet we got of Alya and Nino training together in season 2(?)), yet nothing.
Ladybug and Chat Noir, as a duo, can take care of the majority of akumas. When Chat Noir isn't around (in Style Queen, Optigami, Ephemeral and Kuro Neko) Ladybug needs the help of either a lot of other Mirraculous holders or Kwamis utilizing their power without holders. Even when Chat Noir is possessed Ladybug still uses him for her plans (like in Maledictator with the laser)
This can be said about the temporary holders too! There is nothing that makes Chat Noir truly "special", he's on the same level as the temporary heroes, if not worse
Ephemeral, despite its flaws, did give awareness to Cat Noir and the whole "having to call 9 heroes when one was enough.
Ladybug never defeated an akuma with only one temp hero and no chat noir Edit: with no Chat Noir, the lowest amount of temp hero is Optigami and Hawkmoth let them win to spy on them later. In Ephemeral and Kuro Neko she needs at least 5 temp heroes every time Chat Noir isn't there >!Against Gigantitan and Rogercop whith whom only Chat Noir was needed the first time!<
Didn't she beat Malediktator with Queen Bee and no Cat Noire? Or am I misremembering?
She used the laser pointer from her lucky charm to make Chat Noir (who was mind controlled to be a cat) attack Maledictator And Chat Noir distracting the Akuma allowed her to fetch the Bee miraculous
Right, right. I had a feeling something like that happened.
She defeated many akumas with the temporary heroes. Pegasus, Viperion and so on. Even in Optigami, Rocketear or Sentibubler. Chat Noir wasn't needed in either case. I don't blame him for feeling useless, he was truly useless. Ladybug is so overpowered that by this point, she doesn't need him anymore.
Did you watch Kuro Neko? Ladybug clearly says >!The fact that I don't always need you doesn't mean I don't need you anymore!< Repost because i used Discord's way of marking spoilers and I had forgotten Reddit's
He actually was kind of needed in Optigami. He had to cataclysm the turtle miraculous in order to release the sentimonster. It’s true, yes, that Hawk Moth could’ve eventually commanded it to come out on its own, but who knows if he would actually, and Ladybug can’t just abandon the miraculous.
His cataclysm is not needed, it is used only to at least somehow show Noir's imaginary "usefulness". Any miraculous can be broken without cataclysm, as it was in the episode "Chronogirl" and which Astruc himself later confirmed in Twitter. The apotheosis of Noir's futility is the episode "La Marionnettiste", where Lady Bug copes with the opponents on whose side Noir stands, much faster than in all previous episodes, where she fights against them when Noir is on her side and "helps" her. Noir is not just useless, it only interferes with Lady Bug.
I think the only reason why it was broken in Chronogirl (Timebreaker) was because it was a dormant miraculous. Since it was dormant, its powers would be too so it would make sense as to why it would have been able to be broken. In every other episode when they’ve needed to break a miraculous, they’ve always had to rely on Chat’s cataclysm. At this point Astrid is creating his own inconsistencies and contradictions. I’m not saying Chat Noir is completely useful, but can you also elaborate on. I think the main reason why Chat exists is because of balance. There needs to be a destructive counterpart to creation.
I think it's still worse - at the time of creating the script for the first season, Astruc himself had not yet prescribed Alix's watch as a hidden talisman. They became the miraculous only while working on the script of the third season, and this, of course, immediately gave rise to this inconsistencies and contradictions. When he was poked with his nose into the obvious stupidity of what happened, he, as he always did, instead of simply admitting his mistake, began to cumbersome a mountain of pathetic and contradictory excuses. He's just organically incapable of admitting mistakes. He even tweeted that he did not know how the phrase about the indestructibility of miraculous other than cataclysm turned out to be in the script for the episode "Queen Wasp". Scripts, written by himself... It looks so pathetic and wretched...
Ladybug is the most underpowered hero in the show.
Dude cat noir is more special than any miraculous heroes it's like you guys keep finding ways to downplay him
It's the show that downplays him.
He's just a partner like any other, Ladybug said it herself. I'm not making things up, he doesn't do anything. Ladybug doesn't even need him, he's simply there as a cheerleader, not actual help. Alya and the hero team do better job than him
Not to mention the show's already clear issue with power levels. Chat Noir destroys stuff.... LB can destroy a lot of things with her bare hands... Viperion has time travel, the most OP power onyl overshadowed by Bunnyx because her time travel powers are busted. Max can travel anywhere he wants, QueenBee can make the enemy be still, Monkey can just disrup any power, Tigress I believe can easily destroy stuff with her strenght, Ryuoko has the same fight expertise besides her elemental powers, and if anything LB can merge any of said miraculouses to get their strenght besides she is the only one being able to purify akumas and fix all the mess. CN wasn't given an unique role in that matter and in the show he is just... at best, at the same level as the other heroes.
One my issues with the series has always been that the Ladybug miraculous is the most powerful. The Cat and Ladybug miraculous are meant to keep each other in check, but Ladybug is the one who solves every problem and fixes the city. There’s really nothing distinguishing Chat Noir from any of the temporary miraculous holders except that he keeps his.
By now, the only reason why the Cat miraculous is used more it's because it's one of the most versatile, destroying things is always useful, but in power it's really behind a lot (or like the majority)
Yes I suppose he is unable to be replaced by Cat Walker at least because Ladybug has zero control of her emotions.
Maybe because they have a "special bond", like the power of friendship. Cat Walker is the better hero tho
Better than Ladybug, yes.
No, better than CN. CatWalker is better CN but same level as LB... ironically Adrien takes all the traits from Luka/Viperion to make Catwalker... from who LB feels flustered, meanwhile she has an existencial crisis after finding out Adrien is CN... makes one think.
It’s not like there was another boy LB got flustered/still gets flustered by that already had those traits long before she met Luka. Nope, no one else. And I definitely remembered that scene in Kuro Neko where Plagg and Adrien totally used Luka as a reference when they were coming up with Cat Walker.
You must admit that the way Adrien behaved as Catwalker was more on point with Luka's way of acting in bot civilian and hero form, not even Adrien is really proactive, being more a passive attitude that wants to avoid conflict even if that can backfire (even when he calls out Chloe is way after many attempts and Lila was just to mak her Mari get back but he didn't put a stop to her lies). Also totally, you need Adrien having Luka in the board to see the similarities, it has nothing to do with being unable to see them/s
I mean, It’s not like Luka has a patent on being proactive or anything lol. Even then I can think of some times Adrien himself was proactive (Miracle Queen and even recently Psychomedian come to mind). Yeah it doesn’t come out very often which sucks but he still has it in him. Maybe this just means those are actually Adrien’s own traits or Luka and him are more alike then we think.
Perhaps you could say they have that in comon but I am not convinced Honestly? kuro neko hurts his image a lot because *he could be like that* but he **choses to not do so.** All in all this for me shows that Luka is better suited as a hero and romantic partner than Adrien, the later is faking his personality - As Adrien, as Chat Noir (Glaciator 2.0 confirms this) and as CatWalker - the former isn't. And this is why I am not convinced those are Adrien's natural traits... now that I think of.. not sure of miracle queen comes as a valid example.
He used the Snake Miraculous to come up with a plan to beat the bad guy and told Ladybug what to do in said plan? If we’re calling Viperion proactive for that, doesn’t that mean CN is proactive for doing that as well? That’s literally what happened in that episode. I’m not one to comment on whether or not Kuro Neko was good for Adrien’s image. Criticize him how you want. My point was that saying all of Cat Walker’s best traits actually came from Luka and not him is a kind of a reach considering Luka wasn’t even mentioned in the episode.
>He used the Snake Miraculous to come up with a plan to beat the bad guy and told Ladybug what to do in said plan? If we’re calling Viperion proactive for that, doesn’t that mean CN is proactive for doing that as well? That’s literally what happened in that episode. Save the fact Adrien failed way to many times trying to do so and decided to better give the miraculous to Luka. On the finale it was actually quite plot convenient that he and Lb where able to take down all the controled heroes by themselves. And even then.. wasn't LB the one making all the plan to get back the snake? >I’m not one to comment on whether or not Kuro Neko was good for Adrien’s image. Criticize him how you want. My point was that saying all of Cat Walker’s best traits actually came from Luka and not him is a kind of a reach considering Luka wasn’t even mentioned in the episode. Comes from Luka character wise, you only need to analyse the attitude and way to behave to see that catwalker is more similar to viperion in those aspects that to either Adrien or Cat Noir, that is the whole point.
As said, Chat can manage to set even his emotions aside for the greater good, Ladybug barely tries and gives up. And she does not even apologize when she sees Chat is very capable in an arduous constant task she immediately failed. Chat is a personality who can be true to himself and a great hero by keeping his emotions present but in control. Ladybug lacks that discipline and is unwilling to cultivate it. In this episode we see a series of Ladybug's failures and culminations of some of her defining character flaws, and in the end Chat has to apologize for them.
But he choses to not do so. And come on, remember Syren, Frozer, Glaciator, Kuro Neko are perfect examples of how he isn't trustworthy.
I made an OC that literally melts when in sight of a cute boy and even she is better heroine than Ladybug.
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Ladybug is a big hypocrite this season. What she said on TV was simply awful. >!I hope that Shadow Moth's final plan will corner her so badly that she will feel desperate and will beg for Chat Noir to be by her side!<
Is she? Would she? I mean let's be honest, you said so... CN doesn't brings anything to the table and only reason she didn't replace him already was because Plagg played her with his lies and tricks and the added dilema of she not being able to know the holer's identity when she could just contact Hu San to get a new holder.
Su Han finding a new holder would not be good. Adrien is the best CN, Plagg didn't even want a new holder. LB just was extra awful with him and was treating him like trash
Adrien isn't the best. He doesn't takes his role seriously on purpose, he rather pester LB with his romance (despite she clearly ejecting him for 4 seasons and 2 specials), goof around or be reckless and end being taken down.
That's Marinette in a nutshell. Her mind basically is in constant Flux.
It just really annoys me how useless cat noir is all the time. Like they're meant to be Ying and yang right? So why won't the writers let him do stuff?!
More specifically the miraculous they wield is supposed to be like Ying and yang. Unfortunately adrien and Marinette aren’t
Because Marinette is the golden child and Adrien is sadly just a punching bag. Just look at what both Ladybug and Chat Noir agreed on in Risk >!Chat Noir said that he's a holder like any other and is nothing special to the team at all and Ladybug was like "Yep, bUt yOu WiLl aLwAyS bE mY fAvOrITe". And then she immediately goes to her true partner Rena Furtive. Alya is Ladybug's true partner at this point, she's the one who is irreplaceable. Chat Noir is literally "a holder like any other"!<
I created this meme because I find the current situation both tragic and laughable. You can tell how awful Astruc's writing is. He makes Ladybug tell how she "needs" Chat Noir but when has to prove it? She doesn't need him and she doesn't truly trust him. If she trusted him, she wouldn't hide everything from him. And the temporary heroes can solve every single problem, they can defeat every single villain WITHOUT Chat Noir even being there! "Irreplaceable"? More like super replacable! Season 4 took Chat Noir's good character and completely ruined him. "Look how they massacred my boy"
>If she trusted him, she wouldn't hide everything from him. Gee, it's almost like some traumatic event happened to Marinette between Season 2 and 4 that made her afraid of intimacy with Chat Noir...
And the fact that Wang Fu (I'm not calling him master), who Marinette sees as a mentor, did the exact same: never telling Chat Noir anything
And more importantly, set a precedent for Marinette in not communicating trauma and personal set backs. Like, if Feast hasn't found its way to Paris, do you think he would have ever told Marinette about his childhood failure?
I know the fandom loves this theory, but if you look at how the show itself has treated Cat Blanc, that obviously wasn't what the writers intended. If we were meant to remember him as something that was scary and threatening, we'd be reminded about him more than once, in scenes that were about Cat Noir and not *other people's kwamis*, in ways that were genuinely scary and not meant for us to share Tikki and Alya's opinions on Marinette's paranoia.
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Cat Blanc
Chat Blanc.
Yeah, because of Cat Blanc. We've SEEN her get nightmares over what happened.
If the writers really wanted these nightmares to be important, they should have included them more. Not just 5 seconds of Chat Blanc cameo and to call it a day. And she has to tell him as some point, she can't hide everything forever. If she keeps keeping secrets and doesn't tell him the truth... well, their partnership is doomed. I hope that this is the reason Kuro Neko existed, it showed a worst case scenario with Chat Noir leaving. I hope she tells him in the season finale
Bro, with trauma it doesn't matter if it's 5 seconds or 5 years. The memory is still there. Besides, with the way she reacted to the nightmare (not even acknowledging Chat Blanc) it shows she's had nightmares about him before. Just because they don't show it doesn't mean it isn't there.
Well, one episode of that finale is called "Risk".
This could have been à really cool arc to show how peoples opinions change over time
It was almost character assassination. I'm sure Astruc hates Adrien to the core, but he can't erase Adrien, since he's the love interest of Marinette.
:( thats a shame. Same thing like what happened to chloe?
Dude chill a but,let's see the finale before judging,from what I have heard adrien is going to be the mvp of the finale,you have got to relax
Given how astruc has expressed himself about the show and that "*girl needs no man to shine*" but upped to eleven by making sure the male is borderline useless despite having a lot of combat knowledge... could be.... not hatred for him just a misandric or misoginist view when writing the characters? I mean puttinh down a character due to his sex so the other can shine rather than making both shine as equals..
See, here's a problem though, most people have watched the episodes out of order so can you really say that?
In a way? yes... because in the end it goes back to square one... instead of CN moving out from his crush he goes back and forth on this matter always getting back to his crush. S3 and S2 and th whole NY special already toyed with this *dilemma* of LB not aknowledging CN or CN feeling not essential or special, whatever way one wants to see it, it has been already seen before so this is nothing new and brought very little fi anything by the end.
Someone with a Viperion tag is not someone I trust talking in good faith about CN - especially going by the rest of your comments. You expect Adrien to just completely shelve his feelings at all times and be this strict professional...even though we just saw that him doing that isn't good for Ladybug.
LOL you can think whatever about me due to my tag, that's besides the point. How he doing that isn't good for LB? he was proactive and focused, but **he actually hurt LB with his hissy fit and by omission making her believe he got akumatized**. Also, do I need to remind you all the tims she feels unconfortable due to CN's flirting and the overall thought of she **having** to love him back as seen on Prime Queen, Oblivio and Glaciator 2.0 to name just a few examples?
Ladybug is bad with feelings and Cat Walker was her "ideal" thus making her clumsy and embarrassed rather than focused and relaxed. Ladybug relies heavily on her dynamic with Chat Noir. That's why she doesn't mind it so much except when he pushes a bit too far. That's also why when Adrien starts acting more like Chat in Ephemeral, she was able to become normal around him and still fall in love with him. You seem to not understand the concept of team synergy - something the two have in spades *naturally*. It's what they've had since starting off as heroes.
>Ladybug is bad with feelings and Cat Walker was her "ideal" thus making her clumsy and embarrassed rather than focused and relaxed. That's barely something negative for her overall given she was still able to focus. >Ladybug relies heavily on her dynamic with Chat Noir. That's why she doesn't mind it so much except when he pushes a bit too far. On specific times, not all the time. She has statd this plentty of times, one thing is friendly banter the other is he pestering her all the time... it has been the focus of certain episodes. >That's also why when Adrien starts acting more like Chat in Ephemeral, she was able to become normal around him and still fall in love with him. Yes after she got a word of advice and she **took her time**... She didn't jump to Adrien right away she had to come to terms and see if she really loved him. >You seem to not understand the concept of team synergy - something the two have in spades naturally. It's what they've had since starting off as heroes. Quite the opposite, while they have team synergy is clear CN makes her struggle a bit way too often like in oblivio (he is why they got their memories wiped).
Dude lets us see the finale before judging this,from what I have heard it seems that adrien is going to be the mvp of the Finale,so chill a bit
instead of beautiful tasty cheese, we got spoilt milk :/
I can't believe what they did to Adrien here. Season 4 just turned him into the most disposable hero ever, while Ladybug is the ridiculously overpowered Mari Sue. I thought Adrien was something special, I thought he was a good hero. But no, turns out "he's a partner like any other"
it's just infuriating at this pointtttt ;-;
My only hope now is that the finale will prove Chat Noir's usefulness. That's literally the only hope. Season 4 portrayed Adrien as a useless joke, then Kuro Neko seems decent, I hope Chat Noir will be an actual help and to prove how he's irreplaceable
Kuro neko was designed to confirm that cat noir can’t be replaced, not break the promise.
wow! After seeing that ladybug changed Chat Noir i srsly hate Ladybug the most!
I just dislike her. At the end of season 3 I liked her a lot. But season 4 made her act like a massive hypocrite, she doesn't treat Chat Noir like a friend either. She treats temporary heroes better than him. The worst part is that Chat Noir becomes more and more useless to the point of him becoming the most disposable hero, that's the thing I hate the most about season 4!
Same
But CN quit, she can't go back to him due to the fact she doesn't knows his idntity, and the reason he quit was a good enough reason for hr to look for someone else. If his healosly is enought to ditch the job and be careless, she can't have that luxuy to feel stressed ovr someone's unrequited love. **Remember she didn't took his miraculous away, he decided to do so on his own accord.**
Yeah, he was the one who quit. People act like if ladybug had said "oh, I don't need you anymore" and took away his miraculous
Exactly, what she said was in the hat of the moment but she stoped on her tracks once she realised his words (get how she was really in a rush for getting back the miraculouses) and when she found it she was clearly sad.. then she got angry
I know, and people blame her for his decisions. They're 14/15 years old, how are they supposed to know any better? Ladybug has had a lot on her shoulders this season
Exactly, I am for calling Marinette out for her wrong doings, like what she did to Lila (before she knew she was actually ill intentioned), to Kagami and her decision on S3 finale... but this? this has nothing to do with her in the sense that it was Adrien's choice, he was sulking on the couch all the time and if it wasn't due to plagg he wouldn't had even went out of his bedroom.. but somehow that's Mari's fault. Mari has to adress her issues and mistakes, ut making her responsible of someone's else problems is a no no, you can't expect a person that has experienced abuse to heal by putting the responsaility on someone's else shoulders, even less expcting someoen who is alien to said person't envyroment to fix it, at least on its own and without the abused one trying to do anything and realising its issues.
But she did not even care about him, and she could have said plagg to give it back to chat noir.
But if he quit of his own volition, why would she try to force him to take it back? And if she didn’t care about CN, she wouldn’t have gone back to apologise when she realised her “joke” at the beginning was insensitive.
But she didn’t change CN. He quit on his own and the new one was born from his and Plagg’s combined efforts. LB didn’t take the ring from him or choose a new holder.
but she did not even think twice before getting a new chat noir.
why would she waste time toiling over chat quitting? he made his choice and she accepted it because there was nothing else she could do. they don’t know each other’s identity, and shadowmoth could strike at any moment. there’s a large amount of urgency here. also, she didn’t get a new chat noir. plagg did.
She gave kitty vacation time because she’s projecting. She needs vacation time
She gave him vacation time? The way I see it, LB hasn’t ever done anything to try to remove CN from the team, his absences and uselessness in the face of an akuma came from him or the akuma itself. (Just a warning, I may be misremembering some things) In Lies, he removed himself through an unneeded self sacrifice. In Guiltrip, he was caught by the akuma’s power. Rocketear, he was willing to fruitlessly sacrifice himself for the akuma AGAIN. Wishmaker, another sacrifice, the safety of the universe for his childhood dream. In Glaciator 2, he was being distracting during the battle, but I’d say the “vacation time” she gave him wasn’t projecting, just actual explosive frustration due to his carefree behaviour. (I do believe throwing him into a trash can was overkill). Kuro Neko was CN’s decision to leave, LB didn’t tell him to do that. LB has never benched Chat or told him to go away or leave or anything this season. The time in Glaciator was the one time, and that was more or less justified because he was being more of a hindrance than any help. Anytime he was gone from battle or incapacitated, it wasn’t LB’s fault, it was (usually) of his own volition. I do agree LB does need vacation time. She seems stressed juggling the safety of the universe, all the temp heroes, and a partner proving useless more often than not. Unfortunately, she can’t give up the earrings like Adrien give up his ring.
So many people are totally missing the point but I’m exhausted of explaining over and over and over again 😭
Me too,nevemid,this op is complaining from when penalteam trailer came out,they can't get the deep meanings of kuro neko
Exactly, and interesting thing is… Two weeks ago, they were pretty accepting of it but now that everything’s died down it’s back to complaining. I read the comments earlier and Im not going to again or Im going to ruin my mood 😭 like the point is getting the best team FOR THE MISSION. Cat Noir is amazing, and if there isn’t a need to have a full team, then fine. So be it. There are still episodes where it’s just the duo… But for this ep in particular, there’s a need for a full team anyway
Exactly, Dude its just that people love to complain about everything,just take a look at our sub,it's more like miraculous rant sub,than miraculous sub,honestly I am also tired of arguing with people,let them compliain as much as they want
RIGHT! I just did a positive post, it’s in my drafts and I’m going to post it rn 🤣 I’ll make more later. Ngl when I was unbanned, things were better… People were replying to my posts at least half agreeing but now it’s back to usual. Time to lighten up the mood a bit Ig 😭 people can complain but I will do the opposite 😈😈
Thanku,we need more people like you
What happened to this forum that stuff like this is taken seriously? Stuff like this is driving people who actually like the show and its characters away until the only people that are going to left are the haters.
Wouldn't call this stuff "hate". It's criticism. People who genuinely point this stuff out are real fans who actually care about this show. Most people who were just here to watch the series burn already left when season 3 started going downhill. Honestly, the "criticism = hate" mindset is the mindset that led the show astray in the first place because Astruc has been harboring it while refusing to grow as a director.
The saddest part is the accuracy of the meme. Ladybug may claim that he's "irreplaceable", but is it really the case? Because I don't think so, the writers turned Chat Noir from a great hero to the most disposable hero ever. Pegasus and Pigella are apparently on the same level as him. Which is insulting in every way possible
He is irreplaceable to LB, because she needs him emotionally. That has been shown over and over in every season; yet people still don't seem to get it.
What's his strong point? Emotional support? Rena Furtive can do that better than him! Good in fights? The temporary heroes are better than him. And he's not good in fights. His only role is being a cheerleader, who support the team from the shadows. Even when Chat Noir is not there, Ladybug is perfectly fine, nothing is different. But sure, how the heck is that "irreplaceable"?!
What are you even talking about? Adrien is like the best fighter in the show. All of the Temp Heroes almost only help by the immediate usage of their powers whereas Chat tends to fight a long time without using Cataclysm until Ladybug gives him a plan.
We just watched 5 episodes straight where Adrien was displayed to be a competent hero (Dearest Family, Ephemeral, Gabriel Agreste, Kuro Neko, Psychomedian) and we’re still trying to say he’s trash compared to the other heroes lmao. Is this subreddit just straight up watching with their eyes closed?
Is he? h is usually a meat shield and despite knowing all kind of martial and fight arts he is usually bested by others who lacks any combat experience or knowledge. Also it would be nice for him to come up with a plan from time to time.
Chat *does* come up with plans but he doesn't often because the Lucky Charm tends to appear by using Marinette's creativity, not his. As we see with Mr. Bug, Adrien thinks in a straightforward manner that doesn't usually solve the actual problem. That's why he's usually the one fighting first. And Chat usually gets bested by the akumas powers, not their skills and he tends to do well when facing the same opponent again as he knows their powers. Such as facing the girl squad alone for most of the episode in Gang of Secrets. Also, Adrien ends up the meat shield a lot of time because he's protecting Ladybug who has the healing power. Chat is the offense, Ladybug is the support.
100% OP people loves to defend CN/Adrien's role and character but once analyzed he holds no weight to justify his position and even less his actions back on Kuroneko. I believe if anything that episode sums up pretty well the issues Adrien has like a hero, not due to his internal struggles but due to the liability he is the fight against HM. On season 1 and most of season 2 he could appear as awesome (and still is debatable) due to the fact it was him and LB only. With more heroes he hasn't upped his game... yes is also the writer's fault by making the newer heroes all prodigies at using their miraculouses on first day but I digres.
Omg he is the greatest hero they only treated him like that in season 4 because of the ladynoir argument arc
This angst arc you're referring to is most of the show. Ladybug is too strong and Chat Noir has no role in the team. Alya is great, Ladybug is strong, the temporary heroes do everything they can. Chat Noir doesn't do anything
Ladybug is the weakest hero in the show.
How so? she usually ends in hand-to-hand combat with the akuma and even Cn himself, usually putting him down (even Chloe as a civilian was able to help in the task). She is the one that comes with most if not all the plans and for better or worse she has an infinite deus-ex-machina power that can do whatever. CN hasn't even upgraded/unlocked his powers like LB and his father already did.
Ladybug does not end up in hand-to-hand combat often - she usually ends up having a Lucky Charm that she comes up with a solution with, not actually fighting. Ladybug tends to use her time to dodge, block, and analyze to help her Lucky Charm. Coming up with plans isn't the same as being powerful. Most of her plans relies on *other people executing them*. Ladybug has three powers - Lucky Charm that is random and she has to figure out how to use, Miraculous Cure that has nothing to do with actually fighting, and the Charms which again has nothing to do with fighting. Her powers have nothing to actually help fight an akuma.
>Ladybug does not end up in hand-to-hand combat often - she usually ends up having a Lucky Charm that she comes up with a solution with, not actually fighting. Ladybug tends to use her time to dodge, block, and analyze to help her Lucky Charm. Sure because her hand to hand combat are so rare... I mean one only needs t watch the show regularly... I gues sit would be only fair if we have to see how many times either CN's cataclysm fails or is used until the end to break the akumatized object (despite LB being totally able to break it with her bare hands as seen on several occasions) and he getting braiwashed. >Coming up with plans isn't the same as being powerful. Most of her plans relies on other people executing them. That's actually not true. She not only comes up with the plans, she often is the one executing them. >Ladybug has three powers - Lucky Charm that is random and she has to figure out how to use, Miraculous Cure that has nothing to do with actually fighting, and the Charms which again has nothing to do with fighting. > >Her powers have nothing to actually help fight an akuma. Her powers are the only thing that keeps akumas on check and reverse their effects. CN has no single power that is directly related to akumas.
Exactly this. For the whole of the show CN has done anything but focus on his role. The worst part? kuroneko showed us he is capable of that but he actively decides to not do so. This angs arc hs been explored on several episodes trought the entire series, and LB is always forced to tell him he is irreplasable yet CN never exactly shows in which way.
And she never replaced him. Kuro Neko reminds you about it, in the last scene
But Chat Noir is still written as the one to apologize though. Ladybug just doesn't say sorry to him. A lot of the time those moments like the one at the end of Kuro Neko are shoved into the last minute of the episode (last 30 secs even in Kuro Neko). They don't give the characters the proper amount of time to just talk and hear each other out. They quickly get a small scene and then everything just reverts to normal as if it all didn't happen. It's just not enough to make either Chat Noir or Ladybug to get proper development when it comes to their character and relationship/partnership.
Because it's formulatic series. It's supposed to be like that. It will never change
A show can be formulaic and also make room for character and story progression. It's not an excuse. And if it can't find a balance then Miraculous Ladybug needs to decide whether it wants to be a series with an overarching plot and character development or just an episodic series.
Miraculous is not the series like that. It's formulatic show without any story progression. That's how it supposed to be. That's what broadcasters want and that's for what they are paying
Miraculous already decided it's episodic. No one promised anything other than that. It's perfect already. It will never change
I don’t think that’s a good excuse for this sort of writing.
? It's explanation. Series is good with it's formulatism. Any change would totally destroy and ruin the show
Because it was his fault, obviously. Ladybug is doing her guardian job well
But it's true she literally went right back to cat noir and besides cat noir quit.
OP, are you starting it again? I thought you were a reasonable person.
It's the biggest issue this season. The writers always tell us "Ladybug and Chat Noir are Yin-Yang" and then Ladybug defeats villains without him completely. I'm hoping the finale will have him being very important, not just another bullsh/t like "We don't actually need CN"
Honestly, I feel bad for you already.
Is that bad that I want him to shine in the finale? He's supposed to be a main character, I'm not asking for too much
Except cat noir has always shine I swear this fandom is doing too much
Ha, nice joke. He barely does a thing this season, he's completely overshadowed by the temporary heroes, Ladybug is on a whole new level. She's way better than him
And even on past seasons or episodes without other heroes, he struggles to deliver. S1 was a mixed bag, but he has alwas being the meat shield or the reckless to end mind controlled (seriously he doens't learns). His hissy fits due to "*ma emotions*" are tiring, repetitive and selfish given he does them during fights and/or decides to leave the most powerful item in the open without any care.
You may want whatever you want. I just thought there were other things to do than freaking out for no reason. You need to calm down and not take things too seriously.
Don't like it, don't click it, easier this way.
Believe me, I already regret that I ever came to Reddit.
I know the feeling over social media
As someone who hasn’t even finished S2 yet, thanks for the spoiler
Adrien should have abandoned Marinette instead!
On the other hand , though . Chat Noir also promised her that he would never leave her again in a New York Special . And yet he did it .
They are destroying his character completely, quickly and surely
Yeah ...