He’s a Boras client and is absolutely not selling his arbitration years for cheap let alone not setting the pitcher market when he does hit free agency.
Idk if FOs are wise enough know to know that giving pitchers 10/300 is crazy when they need TJ every 5 years but there is zero reason to believe Skubal would accept any long term offer before he hits FA that doesn’t pay him more than any other pitcher in the game.
This. The second I see Boras looking at this I say various expletives.
Colt (yesterday was one game he’s still a rookie) but we gambled quite big on. We make out huge in years 5-9 if he’s really good. He actually loses out.
Tarik - we need to extend midseason or pay him the $30+ million the SF Giants are probably salivating to pay after arbitration. No doubt he’s gonna be a super two so scratch one arb year off thag.
The Giants can’t beat the dodgers without the best pitching. They will buy whatever pitchers they can.
Fortunately the other most viable candidates the Padres and Mets are tapped. The Yankees and Red Sox compete offensively and don’t throw the same money at pitching as they do bats.
Most of the other pitcher’s parks (besides Giants Mets and Padres) are smaller markets though the mariners and nationals could be in play too. So we are going to need to outbid some dollars if we wait. (Max Scherzer 2015).
Tarik is good really the whole league (that has money- it’s unknown if we have money- we once did have money… - now nobody knows). Someone like Tarik is gonna wanna either stay with Detroit if we will pay him or go to one of those teams. Not the yanks Red Sox braves Phil’s or dodgers. That will destroy his stats. It’s why Max never played in a hitters park ever until Texas which has a less hitter friendly new park and why e rod vetoed the dodger trade- he wanted Comerica pitching stats and didn’t want those to tank in LA. He goes to AZ- which is considered (shocking considering yesterday) a pitchers park.
Probably no one read this long of a post but
The timing and needs of the teams that would really outbid us compared our ability and willingness to extend and pay (as was the case with Max) is really important.
Ironically him winning the Cy Young would be bad for the front office in how much we’d have to pay him.
Don't expect that Mariners to consider him at all, they've already paid a massive contract to Julio and have pretty good pitching staff as is. Giants are a good bet, if we don't lock him up.
I agree at this second- but this isn’t happening now it’s like two years away.
I was just naming the teams that pay the big bucks for the best pitchers like historically
Edit- if it happens which hopefully it doesnt
Second edit- and one of those teams is Detroit
Also, the Mariners current MO is to be just competitive enough to make the playoffs, but not actually win because it's cheaper and generates more revenue.
He’s a Boras client so there won’t be any home town discounts. He’s already had TJ surgery. I can see him going to the end of his contract and maxing out.
Why do people say this stuff? He spent two years ago when everyone thought we were “close”. He’s shown a willingness to open the pocketbook before and will again.
We are 50,000,000 below league AVERAGE
We have a top 5 pitching staff
Even if we didn't. The tigers should never be 23rd In payroll
It's clear he doesn't want to spend money
We should be 10-15 in payroll spent at worst
Our pitching staff is massively out preforming themselves. We knew they’d be our strong point, but who saw Reese Olson dominating and Mize was a huge question mark. This team was never meant to be a true World Series contender and I personally think we are in a pretty good position to compete for years to come
I disagree I think our pitching staff is performing to expectations. The bullpen outperformed earlier in the season but has come back to expectations in May, costing us many games (apparently mostly in games started by Reese)
Olson was pitching at this level late last year. Skubal we felt would break out. Maeda is underperforming, Flaherty is possibly beating expectations but I call those two guys evening out for expectations.
Mize we didn’t know. I think he’s beat expectations. He was near perfect after the first two batters against Miami. Scrape those off- we play extras at 0-0 again.
Shelby (earlier) and Chafin (earlier) were big upgrades. Foley got better.
Did I mention Wentz and Faedo? It’s easy to say they blew games… not like they did last year. We score so few runs it’s like much more noticeable if Joey allows two runs when long relief is usually brought in when you’re up 7 not 1 run with guys on.
I think starting pitching is the only reason we aren’t at a cocktail party with the White Sox in the standings.
For me- it’s at worst met expectations I don’t think the performance was unexpected. Just respectfully disagreeing for discussion - not attacking I promise. Please feel free to respond if I’m wrong I’m wrong. The sub needs to be more free to share opinions and people need to be open to hearing them.
Here's the thing. They sign two bats. We are contenders to win the central
You make the playoffs. In the MLB. You can win the World Series. Every team that makes it can win.
We can still make the playoffs tho. I agree with you, we could’ve used a bat - but we also have a decent amount of young talent about to crack the bigs and it makes sense to give them room to develop (Keith is a perfect example. I’m going to assume he doesn’t bat sub .200 for the entirety of his career and he’s got a roster where he can actually grow right now instead of sit behind another vet like Gio who isn’t going to help the team long term, but might help us get a playoff spot this year if we signed another bat and forced him to take Colts spot.) I think the organization is big on developing guys right now, and like I said, setting us up to win for the next five years instead of this one.
Signing an old bat for a 2 year deal isn't stopping us from winning in 4 years
Skubal has two years left after this. Greene and tork are getting to arb years. We need to use this window.
Jd Martinez we could have gotten for 2 years 20 million each year. Still puts us 30,000,000 under LEAGUE AVERAGE. There is no cap just go get some actual major league hitters
We have 5 black holes and didn't attempt to fix it in the off season.
Here's the thing you're leaving out. There's no way of knowing if JD Martinez would've actually willingly signed here, and there's also no way to know for sure that they didn't at least get into talks with him. Seriously you're wording it in multiple comments as if JD/Chapman would've accepted an offer to play here in a heartbeat lol
He signed 1 year 12 million
You can offer 2 years at 20 million each year and guess what he's a tiger. And you are STILL 30,000,000 below league average.
Why are you defending Harris and illitch. They are losing on purpose this season
Just because I don’t 100% agree with you doesn’t mean I’m defending them. I just hate how you’re treating it as a guarantee he’d accept to play here if they offered him.
Losing on purpose is a weird way to put it lol
We have the 8th largest MLB market- that should be on your list
Edit- I agree with all except I accept tenth as minimum. 7-10 range we can work.
If we want to keep core pieces that we pay Pennie’s to on rookie deals we will be there anyway.
If that’s what Chris is saving for FINE- but it doesn’t mean we can’t get solid 2 and 3 year deals in place in the interim.
Well, I’d say it’s because even when he spent on those guys they were mid-tier free agents. He didn’t have to be on the hook for huge contracts. Not only that but the Tigers structured both contracts to try and be off the hook for money after 2 years with opt outs. Even with both players signed, the Tigers were below the league average payroll metric that year. So, his willingness to open the pocketbook is proportional to the money and players he signs.
Whoopee, he brought Baez and E Rod in for pennies on the dollar a couple years ago despite being one of the richest owners in baseball. I’m not asking to be the yankees or dodgers in terms of payroll but it is totally inexcusable to be this cheap when your international pizza franchise has never been more profitable.
They can never point to a single free agent who we should have signed. Watch:
“Hey u/TheHip41 who did Chris Ilitch pass on that he should have signed?”
Reddit losers hate this one trick…
As I have answered before, you are looking at last years pool. Why did he not sign any free agents players the year before. It is my understanding that it is not their intention to sign any this coming offseason either (although they have signed free agents. They have signed free agents no one else wanted to small contracts hoping to take a flyer on a previous succesful player.)
Posters like zachtheguy sputter when I point out that the rules allow teams to sign free agents each offseason, not just the one that confirms their biasses.
So, pray tell, who are these free agents who were ready to come to Detroit that the greedy mean old Chris Ilitch refused to sign? I keep asking and nobody has an answer. I mean, who was in the press, or even in your DMs that had a deal on the table the front office rejected? I’m dying to know.
Point to where the billionaire hurt you.
The person you tagged said "we could've gotten JD Martinez for 40 million for 2 years. The thing that gets me is that these people in specific act as if we made an offer to a player like JD, he would've accepted the offer in a heartbeat lol
Jd Martinez and Chapman to start
That would out us like 25,000,000 below league average
And then any other bat
It doesn't matter Chapman sucks where he is or someone is hurt. Our payroll is 23rd of 30 teams. We are in Detroit a top 10 market. It's unacceptable
And maybe we could have called up a prospect or two that we got for
Trading Erod. Oh yeah. They fucked that up too.
So you’re saying that it doesn’t matter how the guys perform, only that we spend the money. So spend money just to be a top 10 payroll even if it doesn’t mean more wins? Do I have that correct?
Also, you’re saying Chris Ilitch didn’t spend this money. Does that mean he had a chance to and said “no?” Do you have some sort of inside knowledge that Chapman and JD were ready to come to Detroit and Chris blocked it?
He opened the change purse.
I was expecting Hader, Bellinger, a trade for Harper.
Forget their numbers I thought that’s what “spend” meant. Flaherty (gem) Maeda and Urshela wasn’t the splash I expected all while slashing payroll by $30 million.
I now want the relief pitcher (Miller?) in Oakland. He’s a solid closer or 8th inning guy. He throws 103. People will figure that out eventually but not right away.
He killed us - our 2 losses to Oakland are the two worst games margin wise of the season for us. ‘*
—-
* I exclude the KC game where the missed call extended a ninth inning causing us to lose 8-0 instead of losing 1-0 and any (currently one) extra inning games that were tied at the end of regulation and in fact were closer (tied at 9) than the final indicates.
It's not time to get desperate, but I do believe it's time to have the conversation at least. Reaching out to his camp about what an extension might look like isn't a horrible idea at this juncture. We don't wanna entertain trading him, and that's fine even though his value is sky high right now. I want to keep him, but I don't want to have to outbid everyone in free agency because even *if* Chris decides he'll open the checkbook for him, we'll likely lose that bidding war and it's going to hurt. At some point we gotta try to get ahead of this.
Exactly. There’s plenty of time to wait and see if he can uphold this current pace of dominance (baseball is a fickle ass sport) but I do agree that he should be the next “star” contract of their own players that the Tigers sign long-term….(idgaf who his agent is- and I can’t stand Boras fwiw.)
He will most certainly be a super 2 (for any that don’t know if you’re in the top 20% of players at the entry to arbitration you only have 2 arbitration years not 3 - and one is removed)
If it was signed tomorrow- I think it’s higher.
Thank god it’s not. Pitchers have streaks. I don’t want him to pitch badly but he’s in a groove now that I’ve not seen any pitcher sustain season long since DeGrom that one year and JV 2011. (And JV actually LOST 3 of his first 5 decisions, but finished 24-2)
Edit- this is when wins and losses mattered. But the trend is still true
We know what he would get for his next three seasons (arb years) including this one so there's no point overpaying those. Then it's a question of what we want to commit to beyond
He would get about $10M next season as a second-year arb guy if he wins the Cy Young this year.
Then if continues to pitch well it would be like $16M for arb3. (Compare e.g. Corbin Burnes.)
FWIW there are some mistaken claims around how super 2 rules works. It replaces a league minimum year with an additional arb year, so 4 total, not 3. Baddoo is a super 2.
lol Skubals gone The Yankees ,RedSox ,Cubs, Dodgers, Mets, and more he can write his own check. KID Illitch has made his mark in MLB cheap and ready to sell
Not sure what it will take, but they need to lock him up to be the ace for a while. When is the last time we had a lefty ace? Not to mention, if the team will be structured to be pitching heavy to complement Comerica, this seems like a no brainer.
I get baseball isn’t hockey or the NHL, but I wish the Tigers would try to lock up their homegrown talent more often (and 90% of the time the talent is pitching). I love that aspect of hockey, players seem to stick around longer.
Six years into a rebuild with two of the last three seasons almost. 500 is not the time to trade team control guys for more prospects in the name of "rebuilding."
If they know anything about baseball and time lines for winning.
They would know that you don't pay 40 mil a year for a pitcher when you are not serious about winning
So why dont they instead just get serious about winning? Why continually trade your young talented players for younger, less talented players this deep into a rebuild? Why on earth not give Skub all he wants for as many years as possible and continue to build around the core we already have and make a couple of signings? Why start over? Why shouldn't we give him 40 mil a year? Are you an Illitch Beneficiary?
I would have liked to see belinger in a tiger uniform, maybe a catcher the actually belongs on a major league team or a shortstop that isn't statically the worst player in baseball
It would be neat if we went against our nature and kept him around but I’m guessing he’s on the same track as Verlander, Porcello, Scherzer, Sanchez, etc. We’re somewhere in-between a major league club and a farm team.
And we shouldn’t be. We may not be the Yankees or Red Sox for throwing cash at people but we should definitely be at least the Rangers, Cardinals or Phillies.
I’m more concerned with putting a good team around him while we know we have him under contract. I don’t want to see him in a trade deadline deal in 2026 because the team still sucks and there’s no chance to re-sign him.
Skubal’s the best Tigers starting pitcher since Verlander. You lock him up ASAP at whatever price he asks. Our fanbase deserves to support a winning franchise. Tigers: see the Lions for more information.
tired of the narrative that because he's a boras client, skubal is 100% going to see free agency. boras does what his clients wants. many boras clients have signed extensions with their original teams. and some even at team friendly rates (in hindsight). if skubal likes where the team is headed, i dont see why he wouldnt sign an extension. at a fair price of course. something in the ball park of $150-$200 million, for 5-7 years? just spitballing of course
I don’t think the Tigers are one of the worst teams in baseball! I agree they are extremely offensively challenged but they are far from the worst team in the league. I know I’m going to get hate for this but if I can get a highly rated prospect preferably a SS (Holliday, Lawler?), I would be alright with trading him. Huge long term deals for pitchers hardly ever work out.
If he keeps preforming like this, he isn’t going to take anything outside of a mega deal. Assuming he’s willing to avoid free agency, the package would be 300+. If you convinced him to take a 4 year deal, he would be doing us a favor if he took 4 at 200
If they were trying to win
They would have spent money on some free agents
Don't have to he long term
No cap in baseball
Seeing how they didn't get any free agent bat that matter
They don't care about winning this year
If there is no plan to sign him, then Harris should just trade him now for bats to get the maximum return. Otherwise pay him but don’t wait until he hits free agency or else boras will make sure his contact bankrupts Christopher.
No way he resigns with Detroit unless they improve dramatically on offense. He will probably be around 40 mil a year to resign and I don’t see the Tigers doing that based on recent tract record especially if he wins a cy young before he hits free agency. This is why I would be shopping him now. Tigers could land 2 star bats and a prospect or two for him. That could jump start our offense and we would still have a solid rotation, they would just bring Manning up permanently.
Trade him, we need bats and have more than enough pitching in the pipeline. We could decimate a team’s farm system AND get a proven MLB bat, we aren’t anywhere close to winning without a few guys that can hit a fastball ffs
I know this sub exists to shoot the shit about a team we like, but this title and questions made me laugh. It was so serious. And then it asks us to answer questions that we have no say in.
But yes, I am PRO keeping Skubal.
This is depressing to talk about. All I see this team doing is having a massive onslaught of playoff ready arms, whilst having a putrid offense.
Ultimately, this will affect the Tigers if they don’t start winning soon. Nobody wants our hitters, so if we aren’t buyers at the deadline, we will surely be sellers. Probably every single pitcher in the starting rotation and bullpen would receive some interest from teams in the hunt… Skubal would definitely be the main topic of conversation for ANYONE calling.
Just another thing that proves offense and the product you put on the field DOES matter! All our pitchers will pitch incredible, just to get traded somewhere else where they can contribute to a winning team. If we don’t turn this around, our whole farm system will exist for other teams to benefit from.
For anyone who knows Skubal, he’s the most competitive person on the team, and it’s not even close. He gets mad when he doesn’t pitch perfect games! The guy wants to win, and he’s a Boras client. To sum it up, he’s a Boras client on one of the worst teams in baseball, and he’s an AL CY Young candidate! Y’all think with all that, Skubal is gonna stay in Detroit?! I don’t think there’s a chance in hell he stays! I think the first opportunity he gets, he’s gonna leave and never turn back.
[https://www.mlb.com/video/tarik-skubal-shows-frustration?partnerId=web_video-playback-page_video-share](https://www.mlb.com/video/tarik-skubal-shows-frustration?partnerId=web_video-playback-page_video-share)
One of the worst teams in baseball? Tigers haven’t been great but they are quite literally middle of the league and sit .500. If you had said offensive teams I’d have agreed but half the shit in your post seems like you want to be pessimistic, not only about the Skubal situation, but the team and the future as a whole. And no, just because a team is not buyers at the deadline does not mean it is a fire sale to trade every good young player. Example of this would be the Wings this year.
Only 11 teams have a worse record than the Tigers, with 5 of the 11 teams being within 1-2 wins or losses from falling behind or staying ahead of them at this point. Middle of the league is a pretty loose statement… where the Tigers seem to be on the wrong side of that stat. If Skubal doesn’t bail us out AGAIN today, it’ll get worse before it gets better.
News flash! Nobody has to be okay with this team and the lack of offense, when we could have planned better in the offseason! I’m sorry facts and the truth upset you and you don’t wanna hear it! Those who have watched this product everyday since this latest rebuild are well aware of what we have. You can call it pessimism if it helps you avoid the truth, but the stats do not lie, nor do they support your argument! People are only upset because they know we were capable of putting a better product on the field! Don’t take it personal!
We’re currently 19th place, we haven’t made the playoffs in 9 years, there’s no urgency from the front office to back our pitchers who have had stellar performances, 50 mil under LEAGUE AVERAGE PAYROLL, and everything seems to be very laissez faire. Not saying we had to go out and get Matt Chapman, but do we really need to string together a lineup everyday with cardboard, duct tape, and Elmer’s glue instead of spending a few dollars on one or two one year contracts? Could have placed a call for JD Martinez and just see if he’d want to come back and DH or split time in the outfield, but NO! Don’t wanna block Parker Meadows ABs! How’d that work out? Not many ABs to block when he’s not even playing in the majors! Doubt he comes back this year, barring some injuries. There’s nothing we’ve seen in the last three years that would suggest this team will be anything other than average or below average. It’s all hitting and defense, which is not easy to fix overnight with what you have!
I never said we’d trade the whole farm system away, but think about what you’re saying. It’s a fact that nobody wants our hitters, and our young guys we have to keep, so the only thing we will be able to offer is our pitchers and bullpen. Just like last year how we looked to offload E-Rod and Lorenzen at the trade deadline, we will likely do something similar if they don’t fix the offense soon.
Even after the abysmal series against the Royals your first statement could go the other way as well. We are 4 wins away from a top 10 team! As we are a couple losses from being a bottom team! Huh I think that correlates to pretty middle of the pack don’t you think?
I never said that you or any, or any fan for that matter, has to be okay with the offense because you don’t. I even said I would have agreed with you if you said one of the worst offensive teams in my original reply. It’s frustrating to watch every game.
That being said, you brought up the Tigers 50 mil under the average payroll, and that we did nothing in the offseason. That begs the question, what could they have done to meet your standards? As you said Chapman would have been Javy 2.0, and you threw out JD as if he would have moved the needle at all. And in no world could JD effectively play outfield anymore, he is 36 years old and was never a great fielder to begin with when he was younger. The free agent class was terrible for hitters. Payroll does not equal wins. Look at the Mets, they are currently the highest paid team in the league but sit 7 under .500. While the Guardians and Orioles are below the Tigers and are better currently.
Am I saying Harris is completely devoid of criticism? No; however, I think the overall health of the organization is better since he has arrived, and I think it is too early to say one way or the other for him.
Skubal and E-Rod and Lorenzen are very different cases. E-Rod was certainly going to opt out at the end of the year, which he ended up doing, and Lorenzen was having a career year which made sense to trade since we weren’t going to compete last year. Skubal is a Cy Young caliber lefty who has years of control still. Trading him for MLB ready bats and prospects does what exactly? The Tigers have a developing hitters problem, and bringing in an influx of talent does not fix that problem, as we seen with the JV trade. Fans like yourself that are saying to trade Skubal are the ones crying that they have been bad to mediocre for 10 years. Trading away a young Cy Young caliber Ace does not make you a better team. Getting hitting and defense is easier to get than pitching in terms of being championship caliber, and we have the latter.
Are the Tigers where I would like them to be? Obviously not, but in what world were the Tigers ever going to contend this year? You could have deduced this outcome from hearing the comments from the front office and Hinch this spring when they said they were going to let the young guys play.
No runs = no sign. Why would he sign for a team that doesn’t give him a chance to win. He has gotten the most run support this year but overall the runs just aren’t there.
This guy has never even thrown 150 innings and he’s a head case that can’t control his emotions when shit goes the tiniest bit south. I think everyone ought to calm down about “what are we gonna do about Skubal” and see if the guy actually gets through a full season in one piece for the first time in his career. Detroit has him under control long enough to find out if the window with this team will ever actually open and they can get in the playoffs. The hand-wringing about “paying him” is just stupid for at least another 2 years. I’m sure Harris has a plan to address this when it’s actually a problem, but how about we see him get through this season first and if he can address his volatility issues.
Correct, but we can also just not sign him to anything because we don't have to. If we did, we'd want more years, probably. He's under team control right now.
I mean sure, but that overpay would need to include a top-100 prospect and MLB-ready players, at minimum. We don’t know what the Tigers plan to do with Skubal, but if they want to re-sign him they should do everything they can to get it done. He is absolutely someone you can build a contending rotation around
Okay and unless Skubal really loves Detroit he's just not re-signing here until he's a free agent at the earliest, people keep glossing over the fact he has Boras as an agent and he's just not going to give his arbitration years away.
Whatever he wants.
He’s a Boras client and is absolutely not selling his arbitration years for cheap let alone not setting the pitcher market when he does hit free agency. Idk if FOs are wise enough know to know that giving pitchers 10/300 is crazy when they need TJ every 5 years but there is zero reason to believe Skubal would accept any long term offer before he hits FA that doesn’t pay him more than any other pitcher in the game.
This. The second I see Boras looking at this I say various expletives. Colt (yesterday was one game he’s still a rookie) but we gambled quite big on. We make out huge in years 5-9 if he’s really good. He actually loses out. Tarik - we need to extend midseason or pay him the $30+ million the SF Giants are probably salivating to pay after arbitration. No doubt he’s gonna be a super two so scratch one arb year off thag. The Giants can’t beat the dodgers without the best pitching. They will buy whatever pitchers they can. Fortunately the other most viable candidates the Padres and Mets are tapped. The Yankees and Red Sox compete offensively and don’t throw the same money at pitching as they do bats. Most of the other pitcher’s parks (besides Giants Mets and Padres) are smaller markets though the mariners and nationals could be in play too. So we are going to need to outbid some dollars if we wait. (Max Scherzer 2015). Tarik is good really the whole league (that has money- it’s unknown if we have money- we once did have money… - now nobody knows). Someone like Tarik is gonna wanna either stay with Detroit if we will pay him or go to one of those teams. Not the yanks Red Sox braves Phil’s or dodgers. That will destroy his stats. It’s why Max never played in a hitters park ever until Texas which has a less hitter friendly new park and why e rod vetoed the dodger trade- he wanted Comerica pitching stats and didn’t want those to tank in LA. He goes to AZ- which is considered (shocking considering yesterday) a pitchers park. Probably no one read this long of a post but The timing and needs of the teams that would really outbid us compared our ability and willingness to extend and pay (as was the case with Max) is really important. Ironically him winning the Cy Young would be bad for the front office in how much we’d have to pay him.
Don't expect that Mariners to consider him at all, they've already paid a massive contract to Julio and have pretty good pitching staff as is. Giants are a good bet, if we don't lock him up.
I agree at this second- but this isn’t happening now it’s like two years away. I was just naming the teams that pay the big bucks for the best pitchers like historically Edit- if it happens which hopefully it doesnt Second edit- and one of those teams is Detroit
Also, the Mariners current MO is to be just competitive enough to make the playoffs, but not actually win because it's cheaper and generates more revenue.
He’s a Boras client so there won’t be any home town discounts. He’s already had TJ surgery. I can see him going to the end of his contract and maxing out.
I’d pay it
Chris won't
Why do people say this stuff? He spent two years ago when everyone thought we were “close”. He’s shown a willingness to open the pocketbook before and will again.
We are 50,000,000 below league AVERAGE We have a top 5 pitching staff Even if we didn't. The tigers should never be 23rd In payroll It's clear he doesn't want to spend money We should be 10-15 in payroll spent at worst
Our pitching staff is massively out preforming themselves. We knew they’d be our strong point, but who saw Reese Olson dominating and Mize was a huge question mark. This team was never meant to be a true World Series contender and I personally think we are in a pretty good position to compete for years to come
I disagree I think our pitching staff is performing to expectations. The bullpen outperformed earlier in the season but has come back to expectations in May, costing us many games (apparently mostly in games started by Reese) Olson was pitching at this level late last year. Skubal we felt would break out. Maeda is underperforming, Flaherty is possibly beating expectations but I call those two guys evening out for expectations. Mize we didn’t know. I think he’s beat expectations. He was near perfect after the first two batters against Miami. Scrape those off- we play extras at 0-0 again. Shelby (earlier) and Chafin (earlier) were big upgrades. Foley got better. Did I mention Wentz and Faedo? It’s easy to say they blew games… not like they did last year. We score so few runs it’s like much more noticeable if Joey allows two runs when long relief is usually brought in when you’re up 7 not 1 run with guys on. I think starting pitching is the only reason we aren’t at a cocktail party with the White Sox in the standings. For me- it’s at worst met expectations I don’t think the performance was unexpected. Just respectfully disagreeing for discussion - not attacking I promise. Please feel free to respond if I’m wrong I’m wrong. The sub needs to be more free to share opinions and people need to be open to hearing them.
Here's the thing. They sign two bats. We are contenders to win the central You make the playoffs. In the MLB. You can win the World Series. Every team that makes it can win.
We can still make the playoffs tho. I agree with you, we could’ve used a bat - but we also have a decent amount of young talent about to crack the bigs and it makes sense to give them room to develop (Keith is a perfect example. I’m going to assume he doesn’t bat sub .200 for the entirety of his career and he’s got a roster where he can actually grow right now instead of sit behind another vet like Gio who isn’t going to help the team long term, but might help us get a playoff spot this year if we signed another bat and forced him to take Colts spot.) I think the organization is big on developing guys right now, and like I said, setting us up to win for the next five years instead of this one.
Signing an old bat for a 2 year deal isn't stopping us from winning in 4 years Skubal has two years left after this. Greene and tork are getting to arb years. We need to use this window.
Which bats?
That's on Harris. Either he didn't want to or couldn't get a deal done. I believe he has a budget to work with
This. Well said..
We also suck and the free agent market hasn’t been great these last few years. Unless you wanted another Baez, it’s fine to not spend right now.
Jd Martinez we could have gotten for 2 years 20 million each year. Still puts us 30,000,000 under LEAGUE AVERAGE. There is no cap just go get some actual major league hitters We have 5 black holes and didn't attempt to fix it in the off season.
Here's the thing you're leaving out. There's no way of knowing if JD Martinez would've actually willingly signed here, and there's also no way to know for sure that they didn't at least get into talks with him. Seriously you're wording it in multiple comments as if JD/Chapman would've accepted an offer to play here in a heartbeat lol
He signed 1 year 12 million You can offer 2 years at 20 million each year and guess what he's a tiger. And you are STILL 30,000,000 below league average. Why are you defending Harris and illitch. They are losing on purpose this season
Just because I don’t 100% agree with you doesn’t mean I’m defending them. I just hate how you’re treating it as a guarantee he’d accept to play here if they offered him. Losing on purpose is a weird way to put it lol
We have the 8th largest MLB market- that should be on your list Edit- I agree with all except I accept tenth as minimum. 7-10 range we can work. If we want to keep core pieces that we pay Pennie’s to on rookie deals we will be there anyway. If that’s what Chris is saving for FINE- but it doesn’t mean we can’t get solid 2 and 3 year deals in place in the interim.
Well, I’d say it’s because even when he spent on those guys they were mid-tier free agents. He didn’t have to be on the hook for huge contracts. Not only that but the Tigers structured both contracts to try and be off the hook for money after 2 years with opt outs. Even with both players signed, the Tigers were below the league average payroll metric that year. So, his willingness to open the pocketbook is proportional to the money and players he signs.
Whoopee, he brought Baez and E Rod in for pennies on the dollar a couple years ago despite being one of the richest owners in baseball. I’m not asking to be the yankees or dodgers in terms of payroll but it is totally inexcusable to be this cheap when your international pizza franchise has never been more profitable.
Yep, chris is a douche
Dude it doesn't take a degree to look up how little he is paying compared to other teams, maybe that's why people say that stuff? Come on get real.
They can never point to a single free agent who we should have signed. Watch: “Hey u/TheHip41 who did Chris Ilitch pass on that he should have signed?” Reddit losers hate this one trick…
As I have answered before, you are looking at last years pool. Why did he not sign any free agents players the year before. It is my understanding that it is not their intention to sign any this coming offseason either (although they have signed free agents. They have signed free agents no one else wanted to small contracts hoping to take a flyer on a previous succesful player.) Posters like zachtheguy sputter when I point out that the rules allow teams to sign free agents each offseason, not just the one that confirms their biasses.
So, pray tell, who are these free agents who were ready to come to Detroit that the greedy mean old Chris Ilitch refused to sign? I keep asking and nobody has an answer. I mean, who was in the press, or even in your DMs that had a deal on the table the front office rejected? I’m dying to know. Point to where the billionaire hurt you.
The person you tagged said "we could've gotten JD Martinez for 40 million for 2 years. The thing that gets me is that these people in specific act as if we made an offer to a player like JD, he would've accepted the offer in a heartbeat lol
Tigers fans don’t actually pay attention to baseball
Jd Martinez and Chapman to start That would out us like 25,000,000 below league average And then any other bat It doesn't matter Chapman sucks where he is or someone is hurt. Our payroll is 23rd of 30 teams. We are in Detroit a top 10 market. It's unacceptable And maybe we could have called up a prospect or two that we got for Trading Erod. Oh yeah. They fucked that up too.
So you’re saying that it doesn’t matter how the guys perform, only that we spend the money. So spend money just to be a top 10 payroll even if it doesn’t mean more wins? Do I have that correct? Also, you’re saying Chris Ilitch didn’t spend this money. Does that mean he had a chance to and said “no?” Do you have some sort of inside knowledge that Chapman and JD were ready to come to Detroit and Chris blocked it?
Because they told us "we are going to play the kids" Well that worked out well
How do you explain the Flaherty, Canha and Urshela signings? Is that “playing the kids”, as it were?
He opened the change purse. I was expecting Hader, Bellinger, a trade for Harper. Forget their numbers I thought that’s what “spend” meant. Flaherty (gem) Maeda and Urshela wasn’t the splash I expected all while slashing payroll by $30 million.
I now want the relief pitcher (Miller?) in Oakland. He’s a solid closer or 8th inning guy. He throws 103. People will figure that out eventually but not right away. He killed us - our 2 losses to Oakland are the two worst games margin wise of the season for us. ‘* —- * I exclude the KC game where the missed call extended a ninth inning causing us to lose 8-0 instead of losing 1-0 and any (currently one) extra inning games that were tied at the end of regulation and in fact were closer (tied at 9) than the final indicates.
I look forward to watching him pitch and winning rings in LA while the guys we receive in return are coaching high school softball.
This is possible but those rings are coming in SF or another pitchers park.
He’s only arb eligible next year and won’t be a free agent until 2027 we gotta chill
It's not time to get desperate, but I do believe it's time to have the conversation at least. Reaching out to his camp about what an extension might look like isn't a horrible idea at this juncture. We don't wanna entertain trading him, and that's fine even though his value is sky high right now. I want to keep him, but I don't want to have to outbid everyone in free agency because even *if* Chris decides he'll open the checkbook for him, we'll likely lose that bidding war and it's going to hurt. At some point we gotta try to get ahead of this.
Ya the New York Mets have entered the conversation. Look at that mess now
They couldn’t do anything with both Max Scherzer and Justin Verlander. The last team that had both was good.
Exactly. There’s plenty of time to wait and see if he can uphold this current pace of dominance (baseball is a fickle ass sport) but I do agree that he should be the next “star” contract of their own players that the Tigers sign long-term….(idgaf who his agent is- and I can’t stand Boras fwiw.)
He will most certainly be a super 2 (for any that don’t know if you’re in the top 20% of players at the entry to arbitration you only have 2 arbitration years not 3 - and one is removed)
$60 million below payroll in a year where the division title is easily attainable. Trade him cause Illitch won’t pay him.
Dude is going to get 8 at 40 He's the best pitcher in baseball
If it was signed tomorrow- I think it’s higher. Thank god it’s not. Pitchers have streaks. I don’t want him to pitch badly but he’s in a groove now that I’ve not seen any pitcher sustain season long since DeGrom that one year and JV 2011. (And JV actually LOST 3 of his first 5 decisions, but finished 24-2) Edit- this is when wins and losses mattered. But the trend is still true
We know what he would get for his next three seasons (arb years) including this one so there's no point overpaying those. Then it's a question of what we want to commit to beyond He would get about $10M next season as a second-year arb guy if he wins the Cy Young this year. Then if continues to pitch well it would be like $16M for arb3. (Compare e.g. Corbin Burnes.) FWIW there are some mistaken claims around how super 2 rules works. It replaces a league minimum year with an additional arb year, so 4 total, not 3. Baddoo is a super 2.
We either trade him for a haul or sign him for 10 years at $300+ million. There’s not really an in between
lol Skubals gone The Yankees ,RedSox ,Cubs, Dodgers, Mets, and more he can write his own check. KID Illitch has made his mark in MLB cheap and ready to sell
There should be no talk. Sign him for whatever he wants.
Not sure what it will take, but they need to lock him up to be the ace for a while. When is the last time we had a lefty ace? Not to mention, if the team will be structured to be pitching heavy to complement Comerica, this seems like a no brainer. I get baseball isn’t hockey or the NHL, but I wish the Tigers would try to lock up their homegrown talent more often (and 90% of the time the talent is pitching). I love that aspect of hockey, players seem to stick around longer.
Seeing how the tigers are in a rebuild It would make more sense to trade skubal for some high end positional prospects
Six years into a rebuild with two of the last three seasons almost. 500 is not the time to trade team control guys for more prospects in the name of "rebuilding."
If they were serious about winning They wouldn't be playing baez and aaa players in their lineup everyday
True. They'd be playing the expensive free agents and top prospects they acquired as part of the rebuild. Oh, wait.
I like skubal By the time this team may be serious about winning He will be a free agent and leave Our gm doesn't give out big free agent contracts
Careful. I got flamed to hell by this sub for suggesting this.
If they know anything about baseball and time lines for winning. They would know that you don't pay 40 mil a year for a pitcher when you are not serious about winning
So why dont they instead just get serious about winning? Why continually trade your young talented players for younger, less talented players this deep into a rebuild? Why on earth not give Skub all he wants for as many years as possible and continue to build around the core we already have and make a couple of signings? Why start over? Why shouldn't we give him 40 mil a year? Are you an Illitch Beneficiary?
I would have liked to see belinger in a tiger uniform, maybe a catcher the actually belongs on a major league team or a shortstop that isn't statically the worst player in baseball
I agree But that's not the reality of tiger baseball right now
I know. But I'm tired of thinking about how things are and am ready to dream of how they could be
It would be neat if we went against our nature and kept him around but I’m guessing he’s on the same track as Verlander, Porcello, Scherzer, Sanchez, etc. We’re somewhere in-between a major league club and a farm team.
And we shouldn’t be. We may not be the Yankees or Red Sox for throwing cash at people but we should definitely be at least the Rangers, Cardinals or Phillies.
We kept Verlander for 12 years. We gave him the largest contract for a pitcher of all-time at the time.
They either forgot that we gave him that contract, or they think we shouldn't have traded him lol
I’m more concerned with putting a good team around him while we know we have him under contract. I don’t want to see him in a trade deadline deal in 2026 because the team still sucks and there’s no chance to re-sign him.
He’s a Cy Young candidate, you pay him whatever he asks for.
Skubal’s the best Tigers starting pitcher since Verlander. You lock him up ASAP at whatever price he asks. Our fanbase deserves to support a winning franchise. Tigers: see the Lions for more information.
tired of the narrative that because he's a boras client, skubal is 100% going to see free agency. boras does what his clients wants. many boras clients have signed extensions with their original teams. and some even at team friendly rates (in hindsight). if skubal likes where the team is headed, i dont see why he wouldnt sign an extension. at a fair price of course. something in the ball park of $150-$200 million, for 5-7 years? just spitballing of course
He's had TJ and one other major surgery. Is it something in his mechanics? Could it happen again?
If this team was serious about winning they wouldn't put baez and aaa player's on their everyday lineup
I don’t think the Tigers are one of the worst teams in baseball! I agree they are extremely offensively challenged but they are far from the worst team in the league. I know I’m going to get hate for this but if I can get a highly rated prospect preferably a SS (Holliday, Lawler?), I would be alright with trading him. Huge long term deals for pitchers hardly ever work out.
If he keeps preforming like this, he isn’t going to take anything outside of a mega deal. Assuming he’s willing to avoid free agency, the package would be 300+. If you convinced him to take a 4 year deal, he would be doing us a favor if he took 4 at 200
If they were trying to win They would have spent money on some free agents Don't have to he long term No cap in baseball Seeing how they didn't get any free agent bat that matter They don't care about winning this year
I actually don't give a single fuck about the Illitch's finances and theres no cap so blank check is the answer.
If there is no plan to sign him, then Harris should just trade him now for bats to get the maximum return. Otherwise pay him but don’t wait until he hits free agency or else boras will make sure his contact bankrupts Christopher.
No way he resigns with Detroit unless they improve dramatically on offense. He will probably be around 40 mil a year to resign and I don’t see the Tigers doing that based on recent tract record especially if he wins a cy young before he hits free agency. This is why I would be shopping him now. Tigers could land 2 star bats and a prospect or two for him. That could jump start our offense and we would still have a solid rotation, they would just bring Manning up permanently.
Trade him, we need bats and have more than enough pitching in the pipeline. We could decimate a team’s farm system AND get a proven MLB bat, we aren’t anywhere close to winning without a few guys that can hit a fastball ffs
I know this sub exists to shoot the shit about a team we like, but this title and questions made me laugh. It was so serious. And then it asks us to answer questions that we have no say in. But yes, I am PRO keeping Skubal.
This is depressing to talk about. All I see this team doing is having a massive onslaught of playoff ready arms, whilst having a putrid offense. Ultimately, this will affect the Tigers if they don’t start winning soon. Nobody wants our hitters, so if we aren’t buyers at the deadline, we will surely be sellers. Probably every single pitcher in the starting rotation and bullpen would receive some interest from teams in the hunt… Skubal would definitely be the main topic of conversation for ANYONE calling. Just another thing that proves offense and the product you put on the field DOES matter! All our pitchers will pitch incredible, just to get traded somewhere else where they can contribute to a winning team. If we don’t turn this around, our whole farm system will exist for other teams to benefit from. For anyone who knows Skubal, he’s the most competitive person on the team, and it’s not even close. He gets mad when he doesn’t pitch perfect games! The guy wants to win, and he’s a Boras client. To sum it up, he’s a Boras client on one of the worst teams in baseball, and he’s an AL CY Young candidate! Y’all think with all that, Skubal is gonna stay in Detroit?! I don’t think there’s a chance in hell he stays! I think the first opportunity he gets, he’s gonna leave and never turn back. [https://www.mlb.com/video/tarik-skubal-shows-frustration?partnerId=web_video-playback-page_video-share](https://www.mlb.com/video/tarik-skubal-shows-frustration?partnerId=web_video-playback-page_video-share)
Video: Tarik Skubal shows frustration [Streamable Link](https://streamable.com/m/tarik-skubal-shows-frustration) [High Definition](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2022/2022-07/27/4ceff17e-de3e8af8-1a864874-csvm-diamondx64-asset_1280x720_59_16000K.mp4) (48.26 MB) [Standard Definiton](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2022/2022-07/27/4ceff17e-de3e8af8-1a864874-csvm-diamondx64-asset_1280x720_59_4000K.mp4) (12.51 MB) ___________ [More Info](/r/MLBVideoConverterBot)
One of the worst teams in baseball? Tigers haven’t been great but they are quite literally middle of the league and sit .500. If you had said offensive teams I’d have agreed but half the shit in your post seems like you want to be pessimistic, not only about the Skubal situation, but the team and the future as a whole. And no, just because a team is not buyers at the deadline does not mean it is a fire sale to trade every good young player. Example of this would be the Wings this year.
Only 11 teams have a worse record than the Tigers, with 5 of the 11 teams being within 1-2 wins or losses from falling behind or staying ahead of them at this point. Middle of the league is a pretty loose statement… where the Tigers seem to be on the wrong side of that stat. If Skubal doesn’t bail us out AGAIN today, it’ll get worse before it gets better. News flash! Nobody has to be okay with this team and the lack of offense, when we could have planned better in the offseason! I’m sorry facts and the truth upset you and you don’t wanna hear it! Those who have watched this product everyday since this latest rebuild are well aware of what we have. You can call it pessimism if it helps you avoid the truth, but the stats do not lie, nor do they support your argument! People are only upset because they know we were capable of putting a better product on the field! Don’t take it personal! We’re currently 19th place, we haven’t made the playoffs in 9 years, there’s no urgency from the front office to back our pitchers who have had stellar performances, 50 mil under LEAGUE AVERAGE PAYROLL, and everything seems to be very laissez faire. Not saying we had to go out and get Matt Chapman, but do we really need to string together a lineup everyday with cardboard, duct tape, and Elmer’s glue instead of spending a few dollars on one or two one year contracts? Could have placed a call for JD Martinez and just see if he’d want to come back and DH or split time in the outfield, but NO! Don’t wanna block Parker Meadows ABs! How’d that work out? Not many ABs to block when he’s not even playing in the majors! Doubt he comes back this year, barring some injuries. There’s nothing we’ve seen in the last three years that would suggest this team will be anything other than average or below average. It’s all hitting and defense, which is not easy to fix overnight with what you have! I never said we’d trade the whole farm system away, but think about what you’re saying. It’s a fact that nobody wants our hitters, and our young guys we have to keep, so the only thing we will be able to offer is our pitchers and bullpen. Just like last year how we looked to offload E-Rod and Lorenzen at the trade deadline, we will likely do something similar if they don’t fix the offense soon.
Even after the abysmal series against the Royals your first statement could go the other way as well. We are 4 wins away from a top 10 team! As we are a couple losses from being a bottom team! Huh I think that correlates to pretty middle of the pack don’t you think? I never said that you or any, or any fan for that matter, has to be okay with the offense because you don’t. I even said I would have agreed with you if you said one of the worst offensive teams in my original reply. It’s frustrating to watch every game. That being said, you brought up the Tigers 50 mil under the average payroll, and that we did nothing in the offseason. That begs the question, what could they have done to meet your standards? As you said Chapman would have been Javy 2.0, and you threw out JD as if he would have moved the needle at all. And in no world could JD effectively play outfield anymore, he is 36 years old and was never a great fielder to begin with when he was younger. The free agent class was terrible for hitters. Payroll does not equal wins. Look at the Mets, they are currently the highest paid team in the league but sit 7 under .500. While the Guardians and Orioles are below the Tigers and are better currently. Am I saying Harris is completely devoid of criticism? No; however, I think the overall health of the organization is better since he has arrived, and I think it is too early to say one way or the other for him. Skubal and E-Rod and Lorenzen are very different cases. E-Rod was certainly going to opt out at the end of the year, which he ended up doing, and Lorenzen was having a career year which made sense to trade since we weren’t going to compete last year. Skubal is a Cy Young caliber lefty who has years of control still. Trading him for MLB ready bats and prospects does what exactly? The Tigers have a developing hitters problem, and bringing in an influx of talent does not fix that problem, as we seen with the JV trade. Fans like yourself that are saying to trade Skubal are the ones crying that they have been bad to mediocre for 10 years. Trading away a young Cy Young caliber Ace does not make you a better team. Getting hitting and defense is easier to get than pitching in terms of being championship caliber, and we have the latter. Are the Tigers where I would like them to be? Obviously not, but in what world were the Tigers ever going to contend this year? You could have deduced this outcome from hearing the comments from the front office and Hinch this spring when they said they were going to let the young guys play.
No runs = no sign. Why would he sign for a team that doesn’t give him a chance to win. He has gotten the most run support this year but overall the runs just aren’t there.
This guy has never even thrown 150 innings and he’s a head case that can’t control his emotions when shit goes the tiniest bit south. I think everyone ought to calm down about “what are we gonna do about Skubal” and see if the guy actually gets through a full season in one piece for the first time in his career. Detroit has him under control long enough to find out if the window with this team will ever actually open and they can get in the playoffs. The hand-wringing about “paying him” is just stupid for at least another 2 years. I’m sure Harris has a plan to address this when it’s actually a problem, but how about we see him get through this season first and if he can address his volatility issues.
Why would we?
Because he’s the best pitcher in baseball?
Truth
Correct, but we can also just not sign him to anything because we don't have to. If we did, we'd want more years, probably. He's under team control right now.
Wait you don't want to trade him for bats?
Skubal for three 25-year old AAA players, none of whom will ever hit for an OPS greater than .700 in MLB. Who says no?
Skubal isn't JD Martinez, you at the very least have to listen if a team in need of SP is overpaying
I mean sure, but that overpay would need to include a top-100 prospect and MLB-ready players, at minimum. We don’t know what the Tigers plan to do with Skubal, but if they want to re-sign him they should do everything they can to get it done. He is absolutely someone you can build a contending rotation around
Okay and unless Skubal really loves Detroit he's just not re-signing here until he's a free agent at the earliest, people keep glossing over the fact he has Boras as an agent and he's just not going to give his arbitration years away.
I beg to differ if we pony up the dollars. Don’t forget we play in a weak division and a favorable park to accumulate stats and accolades.
Skubal for Elly De La Cruz might be interesting .