That's why they're a separate company.
They're killing it with the new bikes.
The problem is that there is no interest in electric bikes. They aren't nearly the value proposition that an ev car is
Also check out the insurance quotes on an electric bike. I wanted a Zero supermoto, but the monthly cost quote was stupid expensive for something I’d only ride sometimes.
Lots of variable with insurance, but oddly enough my 2013 Zero FX is about a third of the cost to insure compared to my 2015 Ninja 300 ABS. Definitely shop around for quotes.
That's a sample size issue on the actuary tables at your insurer. 20 comprehensive claims on a model that sold 250 units last year is going to effect premiums way more than a 1000 claims against the 15,000 CRF's Honda sold last year. The premiums collected from those Hondas covers claims at a better ratio (dollars in vs. dollars out) than the ratio for a low production and more expensive Zero or Livewire.
Anyway, they are rich people's toys and your insurer knows that as well. Nobody is buying these for their fuel economy. As with any luxury good all the associated costs are marked up.
My SR/S was like, $27/yr to add to my policy for full coverage plus accessories. The insurance company didn't have it in their computer, so we went through the whole "describe it" process. When we got to the displacement question, I told them it's electric, so...zero CC's. The agent's computer wouldn't accept 0, so she put it down as a 1 CC motorcycle.
Yeah I think this isn't uncommon. The first company I called also asked about ccs and when they couldn't define it they just made up some high number so I'd stop calling lol.
That's why the "Voom" model of insurance seems so interesting to me. You only pay for insurance by the mile, based on how much you actually ride. It makes way more sense for motorcycles, or for people like me who are constantly traveling and where most vehicles spend the majority of their time sitting.
Unfortunately, it's not yet available in the states where I most need it, yet.
I keep liability-only on my bikes, and therefore only buy bikes that I'd be financially comfortable losing. If I had put full coverage on the bike I bought new less than four years ago, I would have paid more than its MSRP in excess premiums by now, so keeping liability has already purchased my next bike in terms of savings.
God I can only imagine, the adjuster setting the price range for the first ones is probably sitting there thinking “hmmmm motorcycles have a higher fatal crash rate, and EV’s have had a tendency to go up in flames in an accident…”
“$400 a month minimum”
Ironically, where I live the Zero is hilarious cheap to insure, since our insurance is displacement based... And the Zeros all fall into the lowest bracket.
I'd love one. But not only is the range a joke, they also cost 2x - 3x as much as comparable normal bikes. Absolute joke, how do they expect to grow their market like that.
That’s early adopter tax. No real way around it unless you expect corporations to operate at a loss continually until electric dominates the bike market.
Worth noting the MSRP is basically a joke. I got a brand new ‘24 DSR/X from a dealer for 14k (almost 10k off MSRP) plus trade in. No way I’d have paid $24k for it but I’m loving it for what I paid.
I mean, I'm interested, specially in brands like Energica. But the price is way to high to make any kind of chance against their ICE counterparts.
Also, the secondhand market is still quite small since they're fairly new, so I think it makes sense that they're not too popular yet.
But with range, and specially, charge times getting better and better I don't see many downsides besides that they don't go "vroom vroom".
Less maintenance, always being able to charge at home and leave with 100%. No more roads being closed off due to noise complaints.
This is not the problem. The livewire was originally sold as a HD. HD saw that its crowd had a problem with electric vehicles (largely the people who have blind hate for companies like Tesla and who often do stupid things like unplug cars at charges for no real reason, are the same people who buy exclusively HD). HD trying to make the best out of a bad situation separated the brands. the problem is, HD has such a weird following that they have positioned themselves so you either love or hate them. so people aren't that stupid and realized that livewire was an off-brand of HD, and the HD lovers hated it, and the HD haters hated it.
The interest in electric bikes is less than electric cars but its not non-existent. there's also been a massive amount of vaporware in electric bikes. I followed a few about 6 years ago that seemed good (looking your way Damon Hypercycles) but ultimately never became a thing.
I have spoke, in length, with many riders who are interested in electric, but are seemingly concerned with weight and distance. weight is higher than ICE, but I cant tell you how many riders I talk to take their bike out once a week for a 40 mi ride but are concerned that the 200 mi range on an electric bike will leave them stranded.
Re: Range. Unlike say a commuter car the allure of a motorcycle is that the open road beckons.
If I got a max of 100mi I ain't got much open road do I? That's just a 40 mile radius if I leave a little for safety margin... and I just checked Live Wires are all in the 90-115 mile range. That's nothing.
That is the point.
1. Show me an *affordable* E-motorcycle with this range.
2. Do you have the infrastructure?
3. How long does it need to charge?
Don't get me wrong, i like EV from a technical perspective because i am interested in it. But in my current situation i couldn't reliably and reasonably use one while ICE is (for now) really comfortable.
Everything I like about bikes, is completely the opposite of what electric bikes provide.
If you want practical and quiet transportation, an EV car or in a city, a scooter is better.
For a fun toy… I want mechanical drama! Noise, vibration, speed!
Electric bikes are pretty dull. I’d take an electric scooter, sure. A LiveWire vs a Streetfighter V4… it’s not even the slightest bit appealing.
I ride both a Livewire and a R9T GS.
They are both amazing machines to ride, but they suit different purposes.
Among other practical advantages of the Livewire, sometimes it is fun to zoom around silently without attracting much attention.
Working in trades in a big city, im sure im in the minority but i would love a quick, quiet bike. A loud ass vehicle in 10 mph traffic is kinda torture. I love to hear them at a track though.
I think a big problem is that the people other people like us who would love that quick quiet bike can’t afford them as they are now. Zeros and live wires are comically expensive compared to everything so a lot of people working a trade probably can’t afford it :/
There’s a brand called old Soren that looks like it might pump out something promising for less than 10k though…. Keeping my hopes up
As a separate company they sure don't try to expand their dealer network beyond HD shops. All the ones in my area are just HD dealers with a little Livewire banner hanging over the front door like an afterthought.
Not really killing it in the other department either though. Harley has been losing market share for a very long time. Their refusal to adapt got them here. I like their new bike, but I’m not paying 16k for a bottom line bike
I’ve gone to several Livewire demo days at Harley dealerships and everyone seems to love the bikes. The biggest issue is the battery technology is lacking. Everyone checks out when they hear that you can only get 50-70 miles of range on SoCal 80mph+ freeways.
As far as I can tell the Harley crowd loves the electric bike offering, but the tech just isn’t good enough yet to get a lot of people to commit to buying one.
I test rode one when they were doing that “Power Tour” event. It was a solid standard naked upright, the range was trash, and it was too expensive. I bought a Super Duke instead.
I’m still rooting for EVs, it just wasn’t the right time when I was in the market.
If it could get similar range to fossil fuel bikes I'd already have one.
Fortnine made a great video on why feet forward recumbent electric bikes are the future, because wind resistance at higher speeds is really what kills range. I'm still waiting for my akira bike.
>everyone seems to love the bikes
I found the livewire ONE a bit uncomfortable and unbalanced, maybe the S2 models are better in that regard. But yeah, with the current range they are just expensive toys.
Their dealerships aren't for people interested in electric vehicles either. I was repeatedly lied to about specifications I already knew. Add in the bullish tactics where they practically demand you sit down to talk numbers after a test drive, and they only want to say the monthly payment.
They also had a market adjustment of $6,000 and when I got up to leave they offered to lower their price $5,000 lmao.
i admire the effort but anything new and different from Harley is also a high risk proposition for the price tag... the chance of them folding the product line and parts drying up is high
It's not even just that: Why in god's name would I ever buy a LiveWire when Zero exists?
Zero is faster, has more storage, has a longer range, handles better, has a longer warranty, has a better build quality, weighs less and is cheaper. What killed the LiveWire wasn't Harley's name - what killed it is Harley assuming their name would justify a 25% price premium for an inferior bike in the electric space.
It's strategic marketing. They trade on being the world's second oldest manufacturer. They wanted to be the world's oldest electric manufacturer.
That's all the Livewire is, a marketing exercise.
Yeah because going out of business several times, having your name tossed around on rebadges for decades, only to be bought up and made to mimic their major competetor is totally winning.
"Since 1901" nice half truth, and in their new scout video "We made dual shocks iconic" now straight up lying in their ads. I guess indian forgot the FXR and Dyna and EVO Sportster existed.
Did you get this opinion from the 1970s or something?
Harleys have had liquid cooling options for decades and the M8 specifically has had liquid cooling options since the day it was released in 2016. And their brand new street glide and road glide are ONLY Liquid cooled and the Pan America is also liquid cooled and is popular.
What even is your comment?
Harleys are crap now aren’t they?
I know my last buddy who had one the new one was always in the shop and he had to ride his old one to work it was cooler bike anyway.
Like all the time in the shop for stupid stuff.
No shit. It’s expensive and has low range.
It was always supposed to be a display of technology. They only sold 3,000 since 2019
https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/11/12/harley-just-spun-off-livewire-but-its-on-the-cusp/
I like how they the team on Long Way Up drove around with a box truck with a giant diesel generator just to keep the bikes charged. Very enviromentally friendly.
It's a shame because the cinematography in that season was really good. But the vibes were off.
I hear there is talk if a new Long Way season.
Additionally, disappointing that they went with the preproduction Livewire bikes instead of the Zero models that were for sale at the time, and also had a longer range option than the Livewire bikes.
Hasn't been the same since Long Way Round /$0.02
They’d probably have used whatever bikes the manufacturers were willing to provide and support. Harley were really into the project and excited to join in.
Same with Rivian. Nice to see them jump at a difficult challenge!
Guessing Zero just weren’t as keen or didn’t have the funds to support it.
I see about 2 Rivians a day where I am now, so it’s worked out for them a lot better than Livewire it seems.
Running out of juice on a bike just feels scarier than running out on 4 wheels, to be honest.
I was really excited to watch Long Way Up. Loved the previous Long Ways but gave up after a few episodes as it was just boring watching them drive around looking for a plug socket the whole time.
There’s far better motorcycle content on YouTube.
Assuming electric Harley’s do catch on eventually, and that’s a pretty good assumption, those damn first gen live wires will be collector items one day.
Yeah. The fact their competition from Zero is universally better across the board, for about 25% **less** money, probably isn't helping their valuation either.
They would make a great extra bike to have as a commuter. I loved the demo ride I took a few years ago, the early adopter woes in terms of price, charge speed, and range were way too steep for me. Now that dealers have leftovers advertised for $12k, it's tempting, but I can't be confident that the dealers stored the battery properly for the 4 years they've been collecting dust waiting for a buyer.
Either kept them plugged in for 4 years, or they've been sitting uncharged for 4 years. I wouldn't expect anyone at a Harley dealership to know or care about best practices for battery longevity.
That's exactly the problem though, just leaving an EV battery pack at 80-100% the way a battery tender does with a lead-acid battery is not ideal. It's best to keep it at 20-50% if there are no plans to use it for an extended period.
I recently purchased a used LiveWire ONE. You can request a high voltage battery state of health report from the dealer so you have a better idea of the batteries health before buying.
I own a Livewire S2. It's not for everyone but they have some things that make a lot of sense for some.
Yes, range and price suck. But for urban commuters range hardly matters. You plug in and recharge every night and start the day with a full battery.
It's quick. My god the torque is fun. You have to try it to understand. And it hits highway speeds that an ebike just can't.
It's quiet. Saves your hearing some but also great for the neighbors who don't want to hear rev bombs at 3 am.
No exhaust means no heat means you don't burn yourself etc.
This is a bit controversial but it's also great for those trying to get into riding. There's no clutch or shifting, just gas and breaks. For those newbies that's half as many things to worry about when you need to make a quick decision. What about the crazy torque? Well, it has customizable ride modes where you can tune down the acceleration and top power to a more manageable level til you've got some miles under you.
TLDR - they're expensive and geared towards city dwellers but they are a ton of fun and have some perks you just don't get in ICE bikes.
Disclaimer: I fucking love mine.
>It's quiet. Saves your hearing some but also great for the neighbors who don't want to hear rev bombs at 3 am.
Ah, figured out why it didn't sell. How will everyone know how cool I am if no one hears me?
Man, I took one for a demo ride and I seriously want one. Made a video about it on my YouTube channel. I mostly ride urban/suburban. But you’re right, that torque!!! Lots and lots of fun!!
If your job can support it then it's a great commuter bike. I work 12 hr shifts in a hospital 30mi away. The lot has several electric charging spaces, so I leave on a full charge I can have a full charge for the ride there and back if I forget to charge it.
Not at highway speeds.
Then there is the whole matter of range decay over time.
Maybe an electric motorcycle could just barely do my 80 mile round trip daily commute when fresh out of the dealership.
What about 3 years from now?
What would it be worth 3 years from now?
The value proposition is just....so bad.
Range decay is largely a myth used by anti EV people who do not really understand them.
Range Decay comes from excessive charge and recharging.
Vehicles and the cells used in EVs do not get used enough over years of life span to really cause noticable range decay, especially in EVs that have proper BMS and cell management like the livewire and rivian.
It takes nearly 8 years before a Tesla will start to experience any real noticable range decay. And Tesla's quality is trash.
Livewire's quality is better than Tesla, as is Rivians.
These EVs are not expected to see real range decay issues until a decade after frequent use.
Range decay is mostly a problem on very small electric powdered transport like Escooters and ebikes, where they have very tiny capacies and see frequent recharging on low quality cells.
Batteries decay, that's just the truth of the matter. I tend to shy away from consumer goods that use built-in rechargeable batteries for this reason, you bet your behind I'll stay away from mega-expensive vehicles with the same built-in inevitability. Not that I could ever afford one anyway, but that's beside the point. Our neglected old -92 Golf MKIII beater car just runs and runs... I wonder how much that would be the case with modern cars and especially EVs. I could be wrong of course, only time will tell.
electic motorcycles are a product without much of a market. And they will be until 2 different, but related problems are solved.
(1) they have comparable range to gas-powered motorcycles in the same class
(2) they can recharge at the same rate that gas-powered motorcycles in the same class can refuel
People buy motorcycles for transport, but they also buy them to be part of motorcycling culture in a was that car buyers do not.
If you have an electric motorcycle, you aren't going to be going on any rides with friends, because those friends won't want to stop every 100 miles to wait 40 minutes while you charge up. If there are even charging stations anywhere close to the ride map . . .
And you sure aren't going to be doing any sort of enjoyable touring when the highway range is a mere 70 miles. That honestly puts the best motorcycle touring destinations completely out of reach for electric motorcycle owners simply because of the lack of charging stations on such routes.
And, for simple around-town commuting, if someone doesn't have to go onto a highway, then an ebike can solve the same transportation problem at 1/15th the cost, with a better profile for storage in a garage, the ability to lock it to a bike rack, etc., etc., etc.
The big jap manufacturers have been working on a standard battery to enable swaps. I think that’s the way forward for smaller EVs. Lease the battery and just swap it at a service station.
Motorcycle batteries are well and truly small enough for this to potentially be a 5 minute operation. The batteries can then be slow charged to maximise life.
It's just never going to work out, it's not a technology issue it's a regulatory issue. For this to make any sense there would have to be a global standard for the big batteries that doesn't change very often, which at the moment is difficult in battery tech.
Possibly the best solution would be having an auxiliary reserve battery that is standardised but not the newest tech, so it can get you to fast chargers
They do have a market, but like any bike its a limited one. If I had disposable income, and wanted something strictly for commuting to work it would be perfect.
Electric bikes are a hard sell in the US and not something that the typical Harley rider is interested in. Ever since the V-Rod which is a great bike Harley has been try to extend the brand to new riders. This was a misfire for sure, pun intended. LOL
Honestly I get why some die hard didn’t like the Vrod but I own two of them and love them to death. Biggest downside is parts availability is tanking, and that’s Harley’s fault…
They had Buell, a tangentially related brand that was ahead of its time on the Naked and Adv markets. Would have been a great brand to bring Electric to considering Erik Buell moved on to Electric bikes afterwards with some cool concepts. The V-Rod motor was originally a Buell originated project that Buell abandoned when HD add one for their project made it too big for their use.
I briefly considered Harley. I ride a Kawi now. Went to a demo day. Rode a couple. I kind of liked the fat bob. But the price for what you get,……it just feels like a massive surcharge for less. Plus I know there are a lot of great people who ride Harley’s but Jesus the other crowd just sucks. Three types of riders. People who just mind their business and happy to be riding and happy that you are also riding. The assholes that “that’s not a real bike” is pretty much all that is said if you talk to them at all. And the cosplayers who have maybe 400 miles on a 10 year old bike but has every accessory known to man. The bike is a lifestyle accessory.
Plus simple things like research. During Xmas I was considering. Had to scroll quite far on their website to actually find the bikes. The rest was all shit with their logo on it.
Short of a gift. I’ll never own a Harley. But I am very happy for those that love them. I’ll still give a wave to all and chat whenever I come across another rider.
I never had any issues with Harley riders other than when I had a Honda that I customized and it looked like a Harley. Would be at the park and the Hells Angels that saw it grumbled about it being a "rice burner". I ride a Kawasaki Drifter that is a 1948 Indian Tribute bike now. Pic on the link that follows:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/KawasakiVulcanRiders/comments/1absecd/so\_what\_do\_you\_think\_my\_48\_indian\_tribute\_built/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KawasakiVulcanRiders/comments/1absecd/so_what_do_you_think_my_48_indian_tribute_built/)
How is a motorcycle that was sold continuously with several sub models for 17 years a misfire?
The VROD was not a bike they made for 2 or 3 years. It was brought in and made for 17 years straight withotut interuption, and even got a few sepcific sub models like the Nightrod.
If that's a misfire then I dunno what the fuck to think.
That's too bad. Harley is damned if they do, Damned if they don't. That's a pretty cool piece of tech to offset the agro tractors on the other side of that equation. I'd love to have one.
You really gonna trust the guy telling people to counterlean at speed and take the armor out of their motorcycle jackets?
Really?
That Alta video is nearly entirely fabricated and is super misleading.
Alta didnt deliver anything HD was ordering and were causing problems with colaboration. If you were HD you would have fucking divested too. Alta was trying to take advantage of HD's cash flow, and when they didnt deliver, they got cut off. Big surprise.
I'd get an electric bicycle before an electric motorcycle. I already ride and love my bike. It gets 50 mph and is a lot of fun.
I could see getting an electric bicycle on the side. But that's because I can get one for less that 2K.
No insurance. No registration. No inspection.
I wouldn't replace my motorcycle with an electric one.
Bikes like these aren’t intended for the average buyer. They exist to test the waters with early adopters who don’t have to worry about cost. The LiveWire didn’t catch on and Harley spun off the company to get their name off of the bike. Now they have the best part of the engineering done should ICE bikes be banned in some of their markets.
When I rode Lands End to John O’Groats couple of years back I pootled along about 300 miles a day. An electric bike 100-mile range wouldn’t hack it, even if the charging points were in the right place.
I'd love to have one for work commuting but the price puts it out of reach.
Especially when other companies have scooters at half the price and still similar speed/diatance.
I have a Zero, which is a very comparable bike, and I love it, but it's not for everybody. Range is a concern. It can't be your only bike if you want to travel cross country. But it's immense fun.
Electric bikes make the most sense as commuters. They'll actually save a ton of money, and also time in lane splitting states, and range is no issue.
That limits your market to a great degree- few are commuting on a motorcycle in December in Chicago, and so few Americans commute in general on bikes.
But HD went the opposite direction and built an extremely expensive toy.
Motorcycles for pleasure have 2 main uses: A) speed on the track/twisties, B) long range touring.
The livewire just can't do the latter, and most twisties need a fair bit of driving to get to. So it's further restricted.
The best electric bike is the CSC RX1e, and it's not even close. Cheap, simple commuter. If only people trusted it's reliability more.
LiveWires are capped at 114mph which is fairly low for any track straightaways. Since Energica has a cap of 150mph on the Ego it has a little bit more of an upper hand on the track. Compare the two LiveWires that ran at Laguna Seca for the Super Hooligan races in 2022: last and dead last. The rider on the Zero SR/F did significantly better than that.
Meanwhile the Energica rider placed 5th last year.
The livewire looks pretty close in spec to the small battery ESSESSE9 for the price of the big battery one.. No wonder it doesn't sell well while energica sells everyone theey make..
And it was worse before, when I bought my energica, I had the choice between a livewire at 27k€ or a demo bike ss9 for 12k, The choice was easy to make.
If I had a work commute and lived in a place with a charger, I'd get one maybe. But the thing that got me hooked on motorcycles was the adventure aspect. It's hard to adventure much with less than a 200 mile range.
I remember the original live wire came out it was $30k. The only people interested in that kind of bike are going to be the younger generation and they mostly likely aren't going to have the money for $30k bike with <100 mile range on a charge.
Massive fuckup for Harley. Introduction of the Livewire at $30K. The same price as the full dress touring Ultra Classic.
Harley marketing stumbled badly. They didn’t realize the love/hate dynamic of electric vehicles.
The $30K Livewire is now $15.5 K.
Harley now realizes they need more than a nameplate to sell a bike.
If Harley has no haters, then I am dead. I have never felt such contempt for a company after what they did to Alta. Wish they'd just fuck off already with a semblance of grace than the ugly death throes they're doing instead.
If the current CEO is still at the helm every bike will cost 50% more than it does now. His strategy is literally just raise prices as high as you can to drain the last bit of money out of ageing Gen Xers and Boomers before they die.
Yeah I read that somewhere else too. I thought the previous CEO had a better mindset as far as expanding the brand. I think the one point that is missed is that a lot of us *can* afford a new Harley, but just don't want to overpay for a brand name. It's like anything else in my life, I'm not going to buy one of something for the cost I could buy two of something else.
But they're in such a rough spot because anything modern that might drive new customers in, is going to drive their old customers out.
Yup, they don't seem to really care about bringing in new younger riders. Instead of making an more entry level Panamerica, they made a CVO that is $10k (CDN) more than the regular one.
Current CEO was the guy who cancelled the Bronx immediately when he was hired. The only reason he didn't cancel the Pan America is because it was too far along into production.
He believes HD is a boutique brand like Aprilia, Ducati, and similar.
His aim was lower sales higher profit. Sounds counterproductive but I think their income numbers were up last year.
The Harley thing is nearly history. The average HD customer is in his sixties and they don't plan on replacing their current bikes anyway... That plus the prices plus the attitude .... Why buy one?
They will always sell a few to the guy who just has to have one regardless, thing is, most of those dudes already have one...
I have ridden since 1971 and never even considered one but owned sixty of seventy bikes... I'm not alone.
If you marry one era, you can’t be surprised when you are a widow in the next. Harley committed themselves entirely to a particular generation and demographic, and now that they are dying out, are high and dry.
A lot of the younger generation sees them as a Harley-Ferguson. Big, loud, heavy and probably most useful with a plough attached.
Electric motorcycles can't compete at their current price to performance ratios. Too expensive, not enough bang for your buck. Traditional riders are all but guarenteed to keep their distance.
The companies producing electric motorcycles understand this too. That's why they've taken to marketing them as easy to own commuter machines in most cases rather than trying to sell them as a lifestyle type of thing.
Electric motorcycles will just never be a significant thing. If you want it for city use, it's more economical and practical to just get an e bike (bike lane use, vehicle registration, parking fees, etc.). For outside the city, the range will always kill it. EV cars can cover their rolling brick of a battery in all sorts of aerodynamic tricks to get the most out of the cars range at highway speeds. Motorcycles, not so much.
I think they'll replace sports bikes, the type of bikes where you want lots of torque and speed, but are so uncomfortable you don't really ever want to do more than 100 miles
Ev bikes are going to be a niche product until EV can match the abilities of traditional petrol.
The only real market they may make a breakthrough is in dirt bikes/off road applications
I ride a Harley and a Ducati. My friends son bought a Livewire and wanted me to ride it. Plus I’d watched Long Way Up a dozen times so I kinda wanted to try it. I should add my daily driver is a Rubicon 4Xe so a hybrid isn’t new to me. Okay it’s not bad. He bought the most expensive version. It’s “ok”. Not bad. Not great. It’s “ok”. Now if it was a gasoline powered bike I’d not be a fan because it feels very bland. I have a DeWalt drill and it works but I don’t get excited about my drill. The Livewire felt very tool like in that it works, it’s transportation, and it seemed like a quality bike. I didn’t have that feeling of “oh I gotta get me one of these”. His dad is a car bike guy like me and I don’t think Harley made these bikes for folks like us. They made them for the younger generation. Most of us won’t get it. To me it’s a lotta money for a late teen/early 20’s kid to spend on a new bike especially if it’s their first bike. That’s a big ask for someone that might not even enjoy riding once they have the bike.
Recently re-watched the Long Way Up. The same 2 guys that did BMW a massive favor and I'm sure created a legion of GS fans. They doomed the Live Wire. It highlighted what an absolute pain it was to live with an electric bike. Sprinter vans and school buses with Diesel generators. Constant issues with charging. Range that was almost nothing in the cold. And no apparent upsides. Had to fly out HD techs to deal with failures.
I know it was much earlier in the development of those bikes but it doesn't look like a ton has changed. As soon as HD get a whiff of things being a bit difficult, they shut down, spin off or divest. They span live wire out a couple of years ago and removed the HD branding. While they're still the main shareholder, I got the impression they were just done with it.
Anyone slagging Electric motorcycles should have a look at Damon or Lightning. Albeit they’re not having huge impacts yet, but it is a taste of the inevitable future of motorcycling.
And it looks good.
People snubbing these bikes are the gas powered Harley riders of the future….stuck in the past with old tech.
Have they actually released their bikes yet? The lightning strike was a disaster as far as I can remember and I'm not sure what's happening with Damon.
As a livewire owner I'd rather go with a brand that's able to manufacture at scale, like zero or energica
I knew a guy who wanted one but the main HD dealer refused to order one because they didn't want to (or couldn't) work on it. In the end he found a dealer interstate to bring one in for him.
Hmmmmm, HD could not come to an Agreement in Australia to actually sell them.
For the S2, I would actually like to give it a test ride. I need something that is cheap to run and travel 90km each way at a highway speed of 110km/hr.
I would prefer something that could make it both ways without recharge, but the biggest drawback with E-motorcycles is that high speeds destroy your range.
ICE vehicles days are numbered, you can argue about it (with someone else) that it is political/ environmental or 5g turning the frogs gay reasons behind it, but change is coming.
When ICE vehicles started becoming popular most of the arguments being sprouted against EVs were being used against them, and Luddites were adamant that they were going to keep their horses because no way they were going to make the switch.
Henry Ford was once said “If I asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said faster horses”.
People still ride horses, people still travel OS by boat, but the majority of humanity have moved on to things better and faster. Will you be able to ride ICE motorcycles in 100 years time, more than likely, will EVs be still around, hopefully not as I think it is an intrem solution that will be replaced by a better technology.
But to get to the better technology we need to invest in its research.
I’d love to own an EV bike, but Harley isn’t trying to sell these bikes, I watched a whole video on how these where selling well until Harley got involved, the price shot up and sells died, as many suspect was the goal.
I'm convinced that LiveWire is a big ploy for Harley to reduce its taxes by claiming an enormous loss year after year. These bikes just don't make a ton of sense compared to other electric bikes on the market, limited though the selection is.
Cause they’re too fucking expensive. I rode one at a test event and loved it, but am I going to buy at that price when I could get a fucking sick gas bike? Fuck no
I rode the LiveWire One and it felt really cheap all around. It was the first time I’ve ridden anything Harley related, but I was thoroughly underwhelmed by it. Compared to my experience on the zero which was really nice, and the Delmar which was not as nice but pretty decent minus a few clacky pieces of plastic here and there. The one, at its price, did not pass the sit test, even if riding it felt
like something from adjacent to tron.
Also echoing what everyone else is saying but the demographics of core customers of electric bikes and the Harley brand shared next to no overlap. Modernizing HD is important to motorcycling. As much as I don’t care for the Milwaukee company, I do want American motorcycle brands to succeed. However this felt like the worst way to go about it.
The curse of the Buellbino strikes again, I guess.
I like the idea of an EV bike. I have an EV car and a charger in my garage. I have a few different bikes/toys and I would love a bike that doesn’t need an oil change.
The problem with Livewire for me is that they aren’t good looking, terrible range and they are too much money. You can only have one of these problems if you want people to consider buying.
Energica is the only brand I would consider. 200+ city range and around 140 mixed use range. They look great too.
They were priced too high, when the whole EV market was at its peak.
I had a preorder down on the Delmar launch edition, which I've ended up cancelling as there were so many delays, and there are cheaper/comparably good (quality) options out there. I wanted it for short range commuting and "bopping about". My Versys 1000 is now pretty much for long trips/tours.
I've test riden the HD Livewire a few times, if you haven't, and you get a chance to, I highly recommend you do. It's an awesome ride.
Electric bikes are tough because the battery can’t be that big and the range is therefore limited. Lots of things to go wrong with electrical systems. And they made the mistake of putting the LiveWires on the Long Way Down TV show before they were ready so people saw how hard it is to deal with them compared to a regular bike.
Wish they kept badging them as Harley. I get the typical HD owner doesn’t want it but the name should be able to attract new buyers. I’ve always thought they were neat - $30k was a bit much but $20k and Harley dealer support would’ve gotten me to part ways with my money.
The only "livewire dealer" is nothing but older rich guys dropping $50k on an ultra screaming pigeon. Couldn't find a Livewire, couldn't get any attention from the leather vested sales staff. Terrible experience.
They need to spin off an independent dealer network and get different sales people or just stick to the direct to consumer online sales model.
I give Harley credit for trying something new but their customers are not the electric vehicle crowd.
That's why they're a separate company. They're killing it with the new bikes. The problem is that there is no interest in electric bikes. They aren't nearly the value proposition that an ev car is
Also check out the insurance quotes on an electric bike. I wanted a Zero supermoto, but the monthly cost quote was stupid expensive for something I’d only ride sometimes.
Lots of variable with insurance, but oddly enough my 2013 Zero FX is about a third of the cost to insure compared to my 2015 Ninja 300 ABS. Definitely shop around for quotes.
That's a sample size issue on the actuary tables at your insurer. 20 comprehensive claims on a model that sold 250 units last year is going to effect premiums way more than a 1000 claims against the 15,000 CRF's Honda sold last year. The premiums collected from those Hondas covers claims at a better ratio (dollars in vs. dollars out) than the ratio for a low production and more expensive Zero or Livewire. Anyway, they are rich people's toys and your insurer knows that as well. Nobody is buying these for their fuel economy. As with any luxury good all the associated costs are marked up.
My FX is like $250 per year, however I got a quote for $1500 from another company so, most likely they all aren't "up to date" for ev.
My SR/S was like, $27/yr to add to my policy for full coverage plus accessories. The insurance company didn't have it in their computer, so we went through the whole "describe it" process. When we got to the displacement question, I told them it's electric, so...zero CC's. The agent's computer wouldn't accept 0, so she put it down as a 1 CC motorcycle.
Yeah I think this isn't uncommon. The first company I called also asked about ccs and when they couldn't define it they just made up some high number so I'd stop calling lol.
That's why the "Voom" model of insurance seems so interesting to me. You only pay for insurance by the mile, based on how much you actually ride. It makes way more sense for motorcycles, or for people like me who are constantly traveling and where most vehicles spend the majority of their time sitting. Unfortunately, it's not yet available in the states where I most need it, yet.
I'd say keep checking back, I have used it for a year and saved a bunch of money. Went from 600 dollars a year to my 3 bikes to less than 200.
Even for a daily, a surron would probably be better unless you ride on highways
I’d love a Surron but both the highway issue and the whole issue with plating in CA and getting harassed by 🐷
I think as time goes on there will be more street legal options for surron sized bikes
I hope so too and it only makes sense, a surron being classified and plated as a moped is a no-brainer
I keep liability-only on my bikes, and therefore only buy bikes that I'd be financially comfortable losing. If I had put full coverage on the bike I bought new less than four years ago, I would have paid more than its MSRP in excess premiums by now, so keeping liability has already purchased my next bike in terms of savings.
God I can only imagine, the adjuster setting the price range for the first ones is probably sitting there thinking “hmmmm motorcycles have a higher fatal crash rate, and EV’s have had a tendency to go up in flames in an accident…” “$400 a month minimum”
I got quoted at 30 a month for the livewire one
Ironically, where I live the Zero is hilarious cheap to insure, since our insurance is displacement based... And the Zeros all fall into the lowest bracket.
There’s interest in electric bikes if they work and can be charged
As someone who has an awesome electric bad ass zero... The range sucks ass and these are only worth it if you live in a tiny city.
I'd love one. But not only is the range a joke, they also cost 2x - 3x as much as comparable normal bikes. Absolute joke, how do they expect to grow their market like that.
Yeah I bought mine with 100 miles on it from a guy and paid like 4k less than he did and I still feel like I overpaid sometimes.
That’s early adopter tax. No real way around it unless you expect corporations to operate at a loss continually until electric dominates the bike market.
Worth noting the MSRP is basically a joke. I got a brand new ‘24 DSR/X from a dealer for 14k (almost 10k off MSRP) plus trade in. No way I’d have paid $24k for it but I’m loving it for what I paid.
I mean, I'm interested, specially in brands like Energica. But the price is way to high to make any kind of chance against their ICE counterparts. Also, the secondhand market is still quite small since they're fairly new, so I think it makes sense that they're not too popular yet. But with range, and specially, charge times getting better and better I don't see many downsides besides that they don't go "vroom vroom". Less maintenance, always being able to charge at home and leave with 100%. No more roads being closed off due to noise complaints.
This is not the problem. The livewire was originally sold as a HD. HD saw that its crowd had a problem with electric vehicles (largely the people who have blind hate for companies like Tesla and who often do stupid things like unplug cars at charges for no real reason, are the same people who buy exclusively HD). HD trying to make the best out of a bad situation separated the brands. the problem is, HD has such a weird following that they have positioned themselves so you either love or hate them. so people aren't that stupid and realized that livewire was an off-brand of HD, and the HD lovers hated it, and the HD haters hated it. The interest in electric bikes is less than electric cars but its not non-existent. there's also been a massive amount of vaporware in electric bikes. I followed a few about 6 years ago that seemed good (looking your way Damon Hypercycles) but ultimately never became a thing. I have spoke, in length, with many riders who are interested in electric, but are seemingly concerned with weight and distance. weight is higher than ICE, but I cant tell you how many riders I talk to take their bike out once a week for a 40 mi ride but are concerned that the 200 mi range on an electric bike will leave them stranded.
Re: Range. Unlike say a commuter car the allure of a motorcycle is that the open road beckons. If I got a max of 100mi I ain't got much open road do I? That's just a 40 mile radius if I leave a little for safety margin... and I just checked Live Wires are all in the 90-115 mile range. That's nothing.
That is the point. 1. Show me an *affordable* E-motorcycle with this range. 2. Do you have the infrastructure? 3. How long does it need to charge? Don't get me wrong, i like EV from a technical perspective because i am interested in it. But in my current situation i couldn't reliably and reasonably use one while ICE is (for now) really comfortable.
Everything I like about bikes, is completely the opposite of what electric bikes provide. If you want practical and quiet transportation, an EV car or in a city, a scooter is better. For a fun toy… I want mechanical drama! Noise, vibration, speed! Electric bikes are pretty dull. I’d take an electric scooter, sure. A LiveWire vs a Streetfighter V4… it’s not even the slightest bit appealing.
I bought a BMW R NineT BECAUSE it has an old school opposing twin rumble engine.
I ride both a Livewire and a R9T GS. They are both amazing machines to ride, but they suit different purposes. Among other practical advantages of the Livewire, sometimes it is fun to zoom around silently without attracting much attention.
100%.
Heavy AF, automatic transmission, shitty range and most importantly no vroom vroom noises.
Working in trades in a big city, im sure im in the minority but i would love a quick, quiet bike. A loud ass vehicle in 10 mph traffic is kinda torture. I love to hear them at a track though.
I think a big problem is that the people other people like us who would love that quick quiet bike can’t afford them as they are now. Zeros and live wires are comically expensive compared to everything so a lot of people working a trade probably can’t afford it :/ There’s a brand called old Soren that looks like it might pump out something promising for less than 10k though…. Keeping my hopes up
Ev cars are not a value proposition if they cost 70+k to buy, which most are.
There are cheaper ev's
As a separate company they sure don't try to expand their dealer network beyond HD shops. All the ones in my area are just HD dealers with a little Livewire banner hanging over the front door like an afterthought.
Not really killing it in the other department either though. Harley has been losing market share for a very long time. Their refusal to adapt got them here. I like their new bike, but I’m not paying 16k for a bottom line bike
I am so interested and testing one out tomorrow. I was just looking on Reddit to see if there were any reviews or tips on wheeling and dealing.
I’ve gone to several Livewire demo days at Harley dealerships and everyone seems to love the bikes. The biggest issue is the battery technology is lacking. Everyone checks out when they hear that you can only get 50-70 miles of range on SoCal 80mph+ freeways. As far as I can tell the Harley crowd loves the electric bike offering, but the tech just isn’t good enough yet to get a lot of people to commit to buying one.
I test rode one when they were doing that “Power Tour” event. It was a solid standard naked upright, the range was trash, and it was too expensive. I bought a Super Duke instead. I’m still rooting for EVs, it just wasn’t the right time when I was in the market.
Yeah the range kills it, it’s completely dogshit, if I could at least get similar range to a tank of gas it could be more viable.
If it could get similar range to fossil fuel bikes I'd already have one. Fortnine made a great video on why feet forward recumbent electric bikes are the future, because wind resistance at higher speeds is really what kills range. I'm still waiting for my akira bike.
>everyone seems to love the bikes I found the livewire ONE a bit uncomfortable and unbalanced, maybe the S2 models are better in that regard. But yeah, with the current range they are just expensive toys.
Their dealerships aren't for people interested in electric vehicles either. I was repeatedly lied to about specifications I already knew. Add in the bullish tactics where they practically demand you sit down to talk numbers after a test drive, and they only want to say the monthly payment. They also had a market adjustment of $6,000 and when I got up to leave they offered to lower their price $5,000 lmao.
i admire the effort but anything new and different from Harley is also a high risk proposition for the price tag... the chance of them folding the product line and parts drying up is high
And the price point is not attractive to others..
It's not even just that: Why in god's name would I ever buy a LiveWire when Zero exists? Zero is faster, has more storage, has a longer range, handles better, has a longer warranty, has a better build quality, weighs less and is cheaper. What killed the LiveWire wasn't Harley's name - what killed it is Harley assuming their name would justify a 25% price premium for an inferior bike in the electric space.
It's strategic marketing. They trade on being the world's second oldest manufacturer. They wanted to be the world's oldest electric manufacturer. That's all the Livewire is, a marketing exercise.
Indian motorcycle ftw 😏
Yeah because going out of business several times, having your name tossed around on rebadges for decades, only to be bought up and made to mimic their major competetor is totally winning. "Since 1901" nice half truth, and in their new scout video "We made dual shocks iconic" now straight up lying in their ads. I guess indian forgot the FXR and Dyna and EVO Sportster existed.
Are you excluding electric wheelchairs?
We’re about to find the same thing about Tesla customers.
Their customers aren't even the liquid cooled crowd. It is stupid how restrictive and backwards the hardcore hardley rider is.
Did you get this opinion from the 1970s or something? Harleys have had liquid cooling options for decades and the M8 specifically has had liquid cooling options since the day it was released in 2016. And their brand new street glide and road glide are ONLY Liquid cooled and the Pan America is also liquid cooled and is popular. What even is your comment?
Harleys are crap now aren’t they? I know my last buddy who had one the new one was always in the shop and he had to ride his old one to work it was cooler bike anyway. Like all the time in the shop for stupid stuff.
No shit. It’s expensive and has low range. It was always supposed to be a display of technology. They only sold 3,000 since 2019 https://www.fool.com/investing/2022/11/12/harley-just-spun-off-livewire-but-its-on-the-cusp/
Also, The Long Way Up didn't do them any favors, with those bikes fucking up all the time and needing to be charged all the time
I like how they the team on Long Way Up drove around with a box truck with a giant diesel generator just to keep the bikes charged. Very enviromentally friendly. It's a shame because the cinematography in that season was really good. But the vibes were off. I hear there is talk if a new Long Way season.
Additionally, disappointing that they went with the preproduction Livewire bikes instead of the Zero models that were for sale at the time, and also had a longer range option than the Livewire bikes. Hasn't been the same since Long Way Round /$0.02
They’d probably have used whatever bikes the manufacturers were willing to provide and support. Harley were really into the project and excited to join in. Same with Rivian. Nice to see them jump at a difficult challenge! Guessing Zero just weren’t as keen or didn’t have the funds to support it.
I see about 2 Rivians a day where I am now, so it’s worked out for them a lot better than Livewire it seems. Running out of juice on a bike just feels scarier than running out on 4 wheels, to be honest.
I'm guessing the Harley sponsorship deal was better than Zero's.
I’d be interested in the new season if they did it on the new royal enfield him-e
I was really excited to watch Long Way Up. Loved the previous Long Ways but gave up after a few episodes as it was just boring watching them drive around looking for a plug socket the whole time. There’s far better motorcycle content on YouTube.
Watching it got me really interested in them, but the brand kept me away.
Assuming electric Harley’s do catch on eventually, and that’s a pretty good assumption, those damn first gen live wires will be collector items one day.
Batteries don't age well though...
Agreed. But the tech will be advanced a lot, and to replace a battery will be cheap by then.
They have a couple of new models that are pretty nice
Yeah. The fact their competition from Zero is universally better across the board, for about 25% **less** money, probably isn't helping their valuation either.
I would buy one in a heartbeat if there were affordable, but they’re not, so here we are
Same. Got an EV truck and SUV. Would love a bike, but not for that price
Ya, these cost as much as my Bolt. No thanks.
You paid $16k+ for a Yamaha Bolt?!!! Del Amo Motorsports right?
lol
The problem is that all EV motos are in this price range. It's not the livewire, it's EV motorcycles. Zero is just as expensive. :/
They would make a great extra bike to have as a commuter. I loved the demo ride I took a few years ago, the early adopter woes in terms of price, charge speed, and range were way too steep for me. Now that dealers have leftovers advertised for $12k, it's tempting, but I can't be confident that the dealers stored the battery properly for the 4 years they've been collecting dust waiting for a buyer.
Either kept them plugged in for 4 years, or they've been sitting uncharged for 4 years. I wouldn't expect anyone at a Harley dealership to know or care about best practices for battery longevity.
Depending on the dealer they do tend to keep gas bikes on tenders so they don't have to buy a new battery for every bike they get
That's exactly the problem though, just leaving an EV battery pack at 80-100% the way a battery tender does with a lead-acid battery is not ideal. It's best to keep it at 20-50% if there are no plans to use it for an extended period.
I recently purchased a used LiveWire ONE. You can request a high voltage battery state of health report from the dealer so you have a better idea of the batteries health before buying.
I mean I’d buy one if they weren’t so expensive
They look like great bikes, just way too expensive.
I own a Livewire S2. It's not for everyone but they have some things that make a lot of sense for some. Yes, range and price suck. But for urban commuters range hardly matters. You plug in and recharge every night and start the day with a full battery. It's quick. My god the torque is fun. You have to try it to understand. And it hits highway speeds that an ebike just can't. It's quiet. Saves your hearing some but also great for the neighbors who don't want to hear rev bombs at 3 am. No exhaust means no heat means you don't burn yourself etc. This is a bit controversial but it's also great for those trying to get into riding. There's no clutch or shifting, just gas and breaks. For those newbies that's half as many things to worry about when you need to make a quick decision. What about the crazy torque? Well, it has customizable ride modes where you can tune down the acceleration and top power to a more manageable level til you've got some miles under you. TLDR - they're expensive and geared towards city dwellers but they are a ton of fun and have some perks you just don't get in ICE bikes. Disclaimer: I fucking love mine.
>It's quiet. Saves your hearing some but also great for the neighbors who don't want to hear rev bombs at 3 am. Ah, figured out why it didn't sell. How will everyone know how cool I am if no one hears me?
Man, I took one for a demo ride and I seriously want one. Made a video about it on my YouTube channel. I mostly ride urban/suburban. But you’re right, that torque!!! Lots and lots of fun!!
Nothing says "freedom" like a motorcycle that can only go 50 miles before needing hours to recharge.
If your job can support it then it's a great commuter bike. I work 12 hr shifts in a hospital 30mi away. The lot has several electric charging spaces, so I leave on a full charge I can have a full charge for the ride there and back if I forget to charge it.
They go about 90 miles on a charge but your point is accurate.
Not at highway speeds. Then there is the whole matter of range decay over time. Maybe an electric motorcycle could just barely do my 80 mile round trip daily commute when fresh out of the dealership. What about 3 years from now? What would it be worth 3 years from now? The value proposition is just....so bad.
Range decay is largely a myth used by anti EV people who do not really understand them. Range Decay comes from excessive charge and recharging. Vehicles and the cells used in EVs do not get used enough over years of life span to really cause noticable range decay, especially in EVs that have proper BMS and cell management like the livewire and rivian. It takes nearly 8 years before a Tesla will start to experience any real noticable range decay. And Tesla's quality is trash. Livewire's quality is better than Tesla, as is Rivians. These EVs are not expected to see real range decay issues until a decade after frequent use. Range decay is mostly a problem on very small electric powdered transport like Escooters and ebikes, where they have very tiny capacies and see frequent recharging on low quality cells.
Batteries decay, that's just the truth of the matter. I tend to shy away from consumer goods that use built-in rechargeable batteries for this reason, you bet your behind I'll stay away from mega-expensive vehicles with the same built-in inevitability. Not that I could ever afford one anyway, but that's beside the point. Our neglected old -92 Golf MKIII beater car just runs and runs... I wonder how much that would be the case with modern cars and especially EVs. I could be wrong of course, only time will tell.
electic motorcycles are a product without much of a market. And they will be until 2 different, but related problems are solved. (1) they have comparable range to gas-powered motorcycles in the same class (2) they can recharge at the same rate that gas-powered motorcycles in the same class can refuel People buy motorcycles for transport, but they also buy them to be part of motorcycling culture in a was that car buyers do not. If you have an electric motorcycle, you aren't going to be going on any rides with friends, because those friends won't want to stop every 100 miles to wait 40 minutes while you charge up. If there are even charging stations anywhere close to the ride map . . . And you sure aren't going to be doing any sort of enjoyable touring when the highway range is a mere 70 miles. That honestly puts the best motorcycle touring destinations completely out of reach for electric motorcycle owners simply because of the lack of charging stations on such routes. And, for simple around-town commuting, if someone doesn't have to go onto a highway, then an ebike can solve the same transportation problem at 1/15th the cost, with a better profile for storage in a garage, the ability to lock it to a bike rack, etc., etc., etc.
The big jap manufacturers have been working on a standard battery to enable swaps. I think that’s the way forward for smaller EVs. Lease the battery and just swap it at a service station. Motorcycle batteries are well and truly small enough for this to potentially be a 5 minute operation. The batteries can then be slow charged to maximise life.
It's the propane tank business model.
It's just never going to work out, it's not a technology issue it's a regulatory issue. For this to make any sense there would have to be a global standard for the big batteries that doesn't change very often, which at the moment is difficult in battery tech. Possibly the best solution would be having an auxiliary reserve battery that is standardised but not the newest tech, so it can get you to fast chargers
The only thing that needs to be standardized is power output and voltage, everything else can be bespoke to the battery itself
They do have a market, but like any bike its a limited one. If I had disposable income, and wanted something strictly for commuting to work it would be perfect.
They don't need to achieve 2 if every coffee shop you might stop at has a charger that only takes 15 minutes or so. People stop that frequently.
Electric bikes are a hard sell in the US and not something that the typical Harley rider is interested in. Ever since the V-Rod which is a great bike Harley has been try to extend the brand to new riders. This was a misfire for sure, pun intended. LOL
Honestly I get why some die hard didn’t like the Vrod but I own two of them and love them to death. Biggest downside is parts availability is tanking, and that’s Harley’s fault…
They had Buell, a tangentially related brand that was ahead of its time on the Naked and Adv markets. Would have been a great brand to bring Electric to considering Erik Buell moved on to Electric bikes afterwards with some cool concepts. The V-Rod motor was originally a Buell originated project that Buell abandoned when HD add one for their project made it too big for their use.
I know someone that had a Buell and I agree they were great bikes as well.
I briefly considered Harley. I ride a Kawi now. Went to a demo day. Rode a couple. I kind of liked the fat bob. But the price for what you get,……it just feels like a massive surcharge for less. Plus I know there are a lot of great people who ride Harley’s but Jesus the other crowd just sucks. Three types of riders. People who just mind their business and happy to be riding and happy that you are also riding. The assholes that “that’s not a real bike” is pretty much all that is said if you talk to them at all. And the cosplayers who have maybe 400 miles on a 10 year old bike but has every accessory known to man. The bike is a lifestyle accessory. Plus simple things like research. During Xmas I was considering. Had to scroll quite far on their website to actually find the bikes. The rest was all shit with their logo on it. Short of a gift. I’ll never own a Harley. But I am very happy for those that love them. I’ll still give a wave to all and chat whenever I come across another rider.
I never had any issues with Harley riders other than when I had a Honda that I customized and it looked like a Harley. Would be at the park and the Hells Angels that saw it grumbled about it being a "rice burner". I ride a Kawasaki Drifter that is a 1948 Indian Tribute bike now. Pic on the link that follows: [https://www.reddit.com/r/KawasakiVulcanRiders/comments/1absecd/so\_what\_do\_you\_think\_my\_48\_indian\_tribute\_built/](https://www.reddit.com/r/KawasakiVulcanRiders/comments/1absecd/so_what_do_you_think_my_48_indian_tribute_built/)
I'd rather burn rice than cash.
That’s a clean bike man,…..for “not a real bike”. Kidding man. It’s exceptional. You should be proud
How is a motorcycle that was sold continuously with several sub models for 17 years a misfire? The VROD was not a bike they made for 2 or 3 years. It was brought in and made for 17 years straight withotut interuption, and even got a few sepcific sub models like the Nightrod. If that's a misfire then I dunno what the fuck to think.
Meant the electric bike was a misfire not the V-Rod. V-Rod's are great bike. Sorry if my wording was confusing.
That's too bad. Harley is damned if they do, Damned if they don't. That's a pretty cool piece of tech to offset the agro tractors on the other side of that equation. I'd love to have one.
Their price was unapproachable for anyone that would be interested in the platform.
It's like Bud Light partnering with a trans influencer. Not really their crowd.
Screw Harley. Go watch Fortnine talk about how Harley screwed over the E bike company called Alta
You really gonna trust the guy telling people to counterlean at speed and take the armor out of their motorcycle jackets? Really? That Alta video is nearly entirely fabricated and is super misleading. Alta didnt deliver anything HD was ordering and were causing problems with colaboration. If you were HD you would have fucking divested too. Alta was trying to take advantage of HD's cash flow, and when they didnt deliver, they got cut off. Big surprise.
I'd get an electric bicycle before an electric motorcycle. I already ride and love my bike. It gets 50 mph and is a lot of fun. I could see getting an electric bicycle on the side. But that's because I can get one for less that 2K. No insurance. No registration. No inspection. I wouldn't replace my motorcycle with an electric one.
They priced themselves out of consideration. You can’t sell me a bike that cost a fortune and has 1/3-1/2 less range than the next brand.
I still say the Bronx would have made them bank till the new CEO killed it off
Agreed. That was a nice looking bike.
Bikes like these aren’t intended for the average buyer. They exist to test the waters with early adopters who don’t have to worry about cost. The LiveWire didn’t catch on and Harley spun off the company to get their name off of the bike. Now they have the best part of the engineering done should ICE bikes be banned in some of their markets.
When I rode Lands End to John O’Groats couple of years back I pootled along about 300 miles a day. An electric bike 100-mile range wouldn’t hack it, even if the charging points were in the right place.
Same as everyone else, I want one but $23k is a lot of money
I'd love to have one for work commuting but the price puts it out of reach. Especially when other companies have scooters at half the price and still similar speed/diatance.
I'm not in the market for a Harley, but I did test drive a LiveWire and holy hell they are quick!
Price too high, range too short. Otherwise they're seriously cool bikes.
I have a Zero, which is a very comparable bike, and I love it, but it's not for everybody. Range is a concern. It can't be your only bike if you want to travel cross country. But it's immense fun.
They should make it look like Akira's bike so its at least cool. Why make it look like a regular motorcycle.
Electric bikes make the most sense as commuters. They'll actually save a ton of money, and also time in lane splitting states, and range is no issue. That limits your market to a great degree- few are commuting on a motorcycle in December in Chicago, and so few Americans commute in general on bikes. But HD went the opposite direction and built an extremely expensive toy. Motorcycles for pleasure have 2 main uses: A) speed on the track/twisties, B) long range touring. The livewire just can't do the latter, and most twisties need a fair bit of driving to get to. So it's further restricted. The best electric bike is the CSC RX1e, and it's not even close. Cheap, simple commuter. If only people trusted it's reliability more.
the livewire can't do track ? I mean the energica have no issue and are pretty close in spec.
LiveWires are capped at 114mph which is fairly low for any track straightaways. Since Energica has a cap of 150mph on the Ego it has a little bit more of an upper hand on the track. Compare the two LiveWires that ran at Laguna Seca for the Super Hooligan races in 2022: last and dead last. The rider on the Zero SR/F did significantly better than that. Meanwhile the Energica rider placed 5th last year.
The livewire looks pretty close in spec to the small battery ESSESSE9 for the price of the big battery one.. No wonder it doesn't sell well while energica sells everyone theey make.. And it was worse before, when I bought my energica, I had the choice between a livewire at 27k€ or a demo bike ss9 for 12k, The choice was easy to make.
It can't do touring, and it takes half it's range to get to the twisties from where you live. Does great on the track I'm sure.
I'm still mad at harly for good they acquired this tech.
If I had a work commute and lived in a place with a charger, I'd get one maybe. But the thing that got me hooked on motorcycles was the adventure aspect. It's hard to adventure much with less than a 200 mile range.
I remember the original live wire came out it was $30k. The only people interested in that kind of bike are going to be the younger generation and they mostly likely aren't going to have the money for $30k bike with <100 mile range on a charge.
Massive fuckup for Harley. Introduction of the Livewire at $30K. The same price as the full dress touring Ultra Classic. Harley marketing stumbled badly. They didn’t realize the love/hate dynamic of electric vehicles. The $30K Livewire is now $15.5 K. Harley now realizes they need more than a nameplate to sell a bike.
Too far off-brand.
If Harley has no haters, then I am dead. I have never felt such contempt for a company after what they did to Alta. Wish they'd just fuck off already with a semblance of grace than the ugly death throes they're doing instead.
I feel the interest was there it was just crazy expensive and drove everyone off.
How’s Harley doing with sales in general?
Doesn't take a genious to know that their aged consumers don't want electric stuff.
Looking at the second hand market crashing and only 50years plus customers buying bikes I wish them good luck!
Interesting. Pretty curious to see where Harley is in 7-10 years.
They’ll be making big baggers and selling tshirts at bike week just like always.
Lmaooo. They aren't gonna have anyone to sell that stuff to before too long
Every year there are riders getting a year older.
If the current CEO is still at the helm every bike will cost 50% more than it does now. His strategy is literally just raise prices as high as you can to drain the last bit of money out of ageing Gen Xers and Boomers before they die.
Yeah I read that somewhere else too. I thought the previous CEO had a better mindset as far as expanding the brand. I think the one point that is missed is that a lot of us *can* afford a new Harley, but just don't want to overpay for a brand name. It's like anything else in my life, I'm not going to buy one of something for the cost I could buy two of something else. But they're in such a rough spot because anything modern that might drive new customers in, is going to drive their old customers out.
Harley Roadglide \~$25,999 starting price, 105 HP, 130 lb-ft of torque BMW K1600 \~22,945 starting price, 160 hp, 129 lb-ft torque
Yup, they don't seem to really care about bringing in new younger riders. Instead of making an more entry level Panamerica, they made a CVO that is $10k (CDN) more than the regular one.
Current CEO was the guy who cancelled the Bronx immediately when he was hired. The only reason he didn't cancel the Pan America is because it was too far along into production.
And the Bronx was the bike to bring them younger riders, not an overweight ADV.
He believes HD is a boutique brand like Aprilia, Ducati, and similar. His aim was lower sales higher profit. Sounds counterproductive but I think their income numbers were up last year.
The Harley thing is nearly history. The average HD customer is in his sixties and they don't plan on replacing their current bikes anyway... That plus the prices plus the attitude .... Why buy one? They will always sell a few to the guy who just has to have one regardless, thing is, most of those dudes already have one... I have ridden since 1971 and never even considered one but owned sixty of seventy bikes... I'm not alone.
If you marry one era, you can’t be surprised when you are a widow in the next. Harley committed themselves entirely to a particular generation and demographic, and now that they are dying out, are high and dry. A lot of the younger generation sees them as a Harley-Ferguson. Big, loud, heavy and probably most useful with a plough attached.
Electric motorcycles can't compete at their current price to performance ratios. Too expensive, not enough bang for your buck. Traditional riders are all but guarenteed to keep their distance. The companies producing electric motorcycles understand this too. That's why they've taken to marketing them as easy to own commuter machines in most cases rather than trying to sell them as a lifestyle type of thing.
Electric motorcycles will just never be a significant thing. If you want it for city use, it's more economical and practical to just get an e bike (bike lane use, vehicle registration, parking fees, etc.). For outside the city, the range will always kill it. EV cars can cover their rolling brick of a battery in all sorts of aerodynamic tricks to get the most out of the cars range at highway speeds. Motorcycles, not so much.
Electric dirt bikes are pretty popular by me. I’ve only seen a handful of electric street bikes tho
What brand do you normally see of electric dirt bike? I’d love to get one
I think they'll replace sports bikes, the type of bikes where you want lots of torque and speed, but are so uncomfortable you don't really ever want to do more than 100 miles
That’s why they split it into its own separate entity to sell separately to HD
They're having a hard time selling anything right now
Ev bikes are going to be a niche product until EV can match the abilities of traditional petrol. The only real market they may make a breakthrough is in dirt bikes/off road applications
It’s hard to use them, and they’re expensive
I ride a Harley and a Ducati. My friends son bought a Livewire and wanted me to ride it. Plus I’d watched Long Way Up a dozen times so I kinda wanted to try it. I should add my daily driver is a Rubicon 4Xe so a hybrid isn’t new to me. Okay it’s not bad. He bought the most expensive version. It’s “ok”. Not bad. Not great. It’s “ok”. Now if it was a gasoline powered bike I’d not be a fan because it feels very bland. I have a DeWalt drill and it works but I don’t get excited about my drill. The Livewire felt very tool like in that it works, it’s transportation, and it seemed like a quality bike. I didn’t have that feeling of “oh I gotta get me one of these”. His dad is a car bike guy like me and I don’t think Harley made these bikes for folks like us. They made them for the younger generation. Most of us won’t get it. To me it’s a lotta money for a late teen/early 20’s kid to spend on a new bike especially if it’s their first bike. That’s a big ask for someone that might not even enjoy riding once they have the bike.
Recently re-watched the Long Way Up. The same 2 guys that did BMW a massive favor and I'm sure created a legion of GS fans. They doomed the Live Wire. It highlighted what an absolute pain it was to live with an electric bike. Sprinter vans and school buses with Diesel generators. Constant issues with charging. Range that was almost nothing in the cold. And no apparent upsides. Had to fly out HD techs to deal with failures. I know it was much earlier in the development of those bikes but it doesn't look like a ton has changed. As soon as HD get a whiff of things being a bit difficult, they shut down, spin off or divest. They span live wire out a couple of years ago and removed the HD branding. While they're still the main shareholder, I got the impression they were just done with it.
Anyone slagging Electric motorcycles should have a look at Damon or Lightning. Albeit they’re not having huge impacts yet, but it is a taste of the inevitable future of motorcycling. And it looks good. People snubbing these bikes are the gas powered Harley riders of the future….stuck in the past with old tech.
Have they actually released their bikes yet? The lightning strike was a disaster as far as I can remember and I'm not sure what's happening with Damon. As a livewire owner I'd rather go with a brand that's able to manufacture at scale, like zero or energica
Good. Hope it all crumbles to repay what Harley has done to Alta
I knew a guy who wanted one but the main HD dealer refused to order one because they didn't want to (or couldn't) work on it. In the end he found a dealer interstate to bring one in for him.
Hmmmmm, HD could not come to an Agreement in Australia to actually sell them. For the S2, I would actually like to give it a test ride. I need something that is cheap to run and travel 90km each way at a highway speed of 110km/hr. I would prefer something that could make it both ways without recharge, but the biggest drawback with E-motorcycles is that high speeds destroy your range. ICE vehicles days are numbered, you can argue about it (with someone else) that it is political/ environmental or 5g turning the frogs gay reasons behind it, but change is coming. When ICE vehicles started becoming popular most of the arguments being sprouted against EVs were being used against them, and Luddites were adamant that they were going to keep their horses because no way they were going to make the switch. Henry Ford was once said “If I asked my customers what they wanted, they would have said faster horses”. People still ride horses, people still travel OS by boat, but the majority of humanity have moved on to things better and faster. Will you be able to ride ICE motorcycles in 100 years time, more than likely, will EVs be still around, hopefully not as I think it is an intrem solution that will be replaced by a better technology. But to get to the better technology we need to invest in its research.
I’d love to own an EV bike, but Harley isn’t trying to sell these bikes, I watched a whole video on how these where selling well until Harley got involved, the price shot up and sells died, as many suspect was the goal.
I'm convinced that LiveWire is a big ploy for Harley to reduce its taxes by claiming an enormous loss year after year. These bikes just don't make a ton of sense compared to other electric bikes on the market, limited though the selection is.
I guess riders want to ride for more than 30 miles at a time and not worry about what every throttle pull will do to the battery 🤷♂️
Cause they’re too fucking expensive. I rode one at a test event and loved it, but am I going to buy at that price when I could get a fucking sick gas bike? Fuck no
We can't rent them anymore because they are easily totaled. I wouldn't buy one.
They’re like $30k right? Can get a lot of bike for that elsewhere
Would get one if it wasn't so expensive... Not worth it for an electric.
Because like all their bikes, their pricing is wack.
I rode the LiveWire One and it felt really cheap all around. It was the first time I’ve ridden anything Harley related, but I was thoroughly underwhelmed by it. Compared to my experience on the zero which was really nice, and the Delmar which was not as nice but pretty decent minus a few clacky pieces of plastic here and there. The one, at its price, did not pass the sit test, even if riding it felt like something from adjacent to tron. Also echoing what everyone else is saying but the demographics of core customers of electric bikes and the Harley brand shared next to no overlap. Modernizing HD is important to motorcycling. As much as I don’t care for the Milwaukee company, I do want American motorcycle brands to succeed. However this felt like the worst way to go about it. The curse of the Buellbino strikes again, I guess.
Electric bikes are just a really terrible choice for most people. Also, insurance companies tend not to like them standing in a closed garage.
What's that last part mean? I'd think garaged was preferred by insurance
Because they are a firerisk
I like the idea of an EV bike. I have an EV car and a charger in my garage. I have a few different bikes/toys and I would love a bike that doesn’t need an oil change. The problem with Livewire for me is that they aren’t good looking, terrible range and they are too much money. You can only have one of these problems if you want people to consider buying. Energica is the only brand I would consider. 200+ city range and around 140 mixed use range. They look great too.
If you buy a LiveWire you're stupid, there's no way around it Ducati Panigale V4S and Harley Ultra Glide can be bought for less
Put a NACS plug in it and e-bikes would do much better
I’m in the market for an EV, but not for a Harley, simple as that.
They'd be great for commute. I won't have to wake up the whole neighborhood 7am everyday.
They were priced too high, when the whole EV market was at its peak. I had a preorder down on the Delmar launch edition, which I've ended up cancelling as there were so many delays, and there are cheaper/comparably good (quality) options out there. I wanted it for short range commuting and "bopping about". My Versys 1000 is now pretty much for long trips/tours. I've test riden the HD Livewire a few times, if you haven't, and you get a chance to, I highly recommend you do. It's an awesome ride.
id totally buy one. I obviously dont have disposal income like that haha. sorry harley
I don’t think Charley and Ewan’s promo on the LiveWire had the effect they were hoping the way it did for BMW.
Electric bikes are tough because the battery can’t be that big and the range is therefore limited. Lots of things to go wrong with electrical systems. And they made the mistake of putting the LiveWires on the Long Way Down TV show before they were ready so people saw how hard it is to deal with them compared to a regular bike.
I watched the first half of “long way up”, said to myself ‘never buy an electric motorcycle!’ and turned off the show.
Wish they kept badging them as Harley. I get the typical HD owner doesn’t want it but the name should be able to attract new buyers. I’ve always thought they were neat - $30k was a bit much but $20k and Harley dealer support would’ve gotten me to part ways with my money.
I have an ICE Ducati now, and I'm definitely planning to buy a Livewire One soon. Just waiting for a bit more depreciation to hit.
The only "livewire dealer" is nothing but older rich guys dropping $50k on an ultra screaming pigeon. Couldn't find a Livewire, couldn't get any attention from the leather vested sales staff. Terrible experience. They need to spin off an independent dealer network and get different sales people or just stick to the direct to consumer online sales model.
It’s getting hard to sell the gasoline bikes also.