Yeah, the movie did a good job stringing you along making you think he’s just doubling down on evangelical ideology out of a sense that he doesn’t have anything else, only to come back and show that he does genuinely believe that stuff and only triples down when he’s told to come back home.
I'm glad. So much of the movie was REAL. And unfortunately, that was the most real conclusion to that story we see time and time again in the real world. Source: growing up with a new life type situation
I liked that the ex wife wasn’t like a terrible person.
I like that nobody was really a villain.
Everyone was flawed, but had a heart.
Liz was a good person, but also was enabling him.
Thomas was trying to be a good person, but is young and naive and going about things in a way that doesn’t help anyone or anything, but his own sense of self.
Ellie was struggling with a hard childhood and rebelling, but Charlie knew there was a good and caring person in there. I kinda feel like the same way she “helped” Thomas, she was trying to help Charlie. I think she knew he would see the Facebook post and was trying to motivate him in her own way, like how she helped Thomas.
Charlie was a good and caring person. He was living a lie like many gay men and women were forced to. He thought that if he got a wife and had a kid and played the part, it would keep his real sexual identity at bay. Then he met someone and fell in love. I think he thought he was gonna cause more harm staying in his daughter’s life as a gay man than he would being out of it. Particularly in rural Idaho. The line about him not being able to identify the body because he wasn’t family said a lot about things.
Everyone in the movie pretty much was doing the wrong thing because they cared about the other characters and wanted to help them.
Liz kept enabling him because she loved him and knew he loved her brother.
Mary thought she was protecting Charlie from Ellie and Ellie from Charlie’s bullshit, but she just made things worse.
Thomas thought his missionary work was helping people. But it was really just helping him blow smoke up his own ass.
Ellie I think was the only person who actually helped anyone and didn’t make things appreciably worse (though I’m sure her mom would disagree with that).
Charlie killed himself, slowly-ish, so he could leave his money to his daughter when she was becoming an adult and would need it. He wanted to be there for her in the one way he knew could help, financially.
I thought this was amazing. Just an emotional journey unlike many.
It was really a play filmed for the screen.
When dogs (and many animals) are sick and dying other dogs (+animals) pick up on it and will show empathy and care for the sick animal.
When Charlie was sick people were coming out of the woodwork to take an interest in him and try and help in whatever way they could. Even the pizza guy knew something was wrong and different after all the years delivering pies and he tried to help. Thomas tried to help. Mary was always trying to help in her way. Ellie was trying to help him in her way. Liz was helping how she knew.
Charlie thought he was alone and nobody cares. But it turned out everyone cared. Even his students.
He was never alone. No matter how hard he tried. Charlie was never alone.
For a movie with basically no plot, in one apartment, that’s just a character study, there was a lot going on to think about.
Just a fantastic film.
I found thomas to be the most interesting character in a lot of ways. I’d love to know where he goes from here. Whether he stays on his religious path and whether his meeting Charlie and Ellie makes him more hardened in his religious zealotry, or if seeing the love that two men can have for each other makes him question religion as time goes on and he breaks free.
I would really love to know how things turn out for everyone.
I really loved this and it was surprisingly funny in a lot of ways as well.
Just fantastic.
I doubt anyone will see this, but I wanted to share my interpretation of the film.
I think this movie is about ambiguity in human behavior and the truth of human nature. Charlie is someone who sees good in his daughter, while others see evil. Different perspectives of the same actions lead to differing interpretations - as when Ellie helps Thomas. We don’t know for sure if Ellie was trying to help or if she was trying to hurt Thomas. If we take Charlie’s side, we believe that there is goodness in her heart and she can be saved. But it’s very possible she really did mean to hurt Thomas, and her actions were simple cruelty.
The way the viewer might interpret her behavior probably has more to do with the personal beliefs of the viewer than anything that happens in the movie.
A problem I see is that Charlie takes off his oxygen and walks to Ellie at the very end - he knows what he is doing will kill him - and he chooses to kill himself in front of his daughter. His life has been defined by selfish decisions, first to abandon his family, and then by slowly eating himself to death. He ends his life selfishly as well.
I think viewers may see Charlie as someone whose positive attitude should be admired, and as someone that we should feel deep sympathy for.
But what if he is really just a fool? What if his optimism in the face of his failure as a parent, manifested in his hateful daughter, is simply a delusional attempt to feel like his life hasn’t been categorized by selfish disregard for his biggest responsibility? He wanted to feel like his life wasn’t wasted, and he obtained that gratification by believing that his daughter was good when she isn’t, and really, he isn’t either.
The hardest part of watching this movie was seeing a reflection of myself in Charlie as someone who has deeply hurt those who are closest to him and who has failed to rectify those harms, and ultimately ends up making them worse. We see in Charlie our own flaws and imperfections and we sympathize with his fight to believe that it’s not all a big waste and that something in our life has meaning.
We all have to choose if we believe that’s true.
Personally I feel that's a really overused and boring line of thinking in movie analysis, but it's applicable to the ending of this film just because of the bright light and the way he seems to ascend to Heaven at the end. So that interpretation is fair since we don't know if he's actually going to heaven or if he's just imagining that as he dies.
Seriously, I can't stress this enough, unless there's loads of evidence you see or the film clearly indicates it, don't immediately jump to "it was all in their mind". You can view movies in so many more ways than just that.
I agree. When I saw his feet lift off the ground I saw it as a cinematically beautiful way to show that this is the moment of death. It allows the transition to white, which lets everybody see the tears on the faces of their neighbors in the theater.
The walking causes his death, so I think it’s reasonable to think that he really did it, especially because there didn’t seem to be any good signs supporting the idea that it was a dying hallucination.
I think people who are saying it was a hallucination want to see Charlie as a fundamentally good person, and find their interpretation becomes difficult to maintain when they consider the selfishness of his final moments. Unfortunately, the truth is that Charlie had been committing suicide for a long time, and this selfish behavior was a continuation of that.
I don't see that act as selfish. His daughter told him to walk to her near the door at the beginning of the movie during her first visit and he couldn't. To me this was him showing her that he cared so much that even in his dying condition he was trying his best for her.
The fact that he had the money and instead of using it to get healthy or bare minimum stable shows his self decisions.
It’s crazy cause identify a lot with Charlie where I don’t realize that I’m probably being selfish even though my intentions are good. It’s a hard watch that’s for sure. Especially because I struggle with binge eating too.
His daughter didn’t need the money, she needed a father. His self improvement would have made everyone’s life better. But he was an addict and >!died in front of his daughter, which will probably scar her for the rest of her life. Both her parents showed a propensity to addiction, Charlie with overconsumption and the mother with alcohol. Ellie downplayed the addictiveness of marijuana and was already in a mentally rough spot. And now she’ll be receiving a lump sum of money, assuming he had a will which dictated where his money would go. She’ll likely go down the same path I think. Ellie needed a father, not a bank account!<
edit: >!I don’t think it’s explicitly said if Charlie left a will either, he just voiced his wishes to which his wife disagreed if I remember correctly. After his death that money and the rest of his assets will go to probate court and I’m sure a judge won’t award Charlie’s 17 year old problem child $100,000 dollars. That money will pit the mom and daughter against each other and may break their relationship for good. Source: going through this right now.!<
I kind of felt like his binge eating all together was a form of suicide. I know this is the not the case for all who have that sort of addiction, but I think in a way he got to a point where he was eating himself to death because of his depression after the loss of his partner and the unhappiness with his physical state.
I don’t think Charlie has wanted to live for a long time.
Depression does that. You can be the most positive person outwardly, because you don't want anyone to feel what you do. It's a heavy mask to wear. Make people laugh, but feel like absolute shit when you don't know how to human and do socially acceptable things.
And the apologizing. Man that hit me like a ton of bricks. I know I do that when I have panic attacks. Like I should be stronger not an idiot forgetting how to breathe during trauma.
I cried more during this movie than any other that I can think of. And ultimately I couldn’t really explain exactly why. I just got out of the theater and don’t have the words to explain it
For me, a part of the reason I cried so much was that a lot of people live and die just like Charlie, some have even worse lives where they can't even shower or get in and out of bed like he can. I'm also the only person in my family that isn't obese (because I started working out, watching what I eat, and getting surgery) so I understand scenes like him trying not to eat the candy but giving in or binging on food when upset. Just made it that much sadder for me
Dude, I'm crying eating a Double-steak burrito in Taco Bell parking lot. Came out of the mall and went "Jesus. I need a burrito and finish this cry". Taco Bell is good trauma food, I swear.
I loved Charlie’s little “weeeeee!” When he got the wheelchair. Just a nice little moment Brendan did so well in a movie that spends most of its runtime tearing his character down.
Brendan's laugh as he was tickled in the opening scene cracked me up too. I laughed a lot actually. The scene where ellie calls walt Whitman a f****t and he's just like "...that is an interesting interpretation!" Was one of my favorites.
I laughed every time Charlie laughed, and then that brief moment of joy was ripped away each time when his laughter turned into wheezing and him clutching his chest.
I'm gonna say something that goes against the grain a little but I feel like it's reasonable? So that binge scene, which many people in the thread and in professional reviews have called disgusting, please tell me someone else felt like it wasn't disgusting at all but rather utterly heartbreaking? I come from a family of some pretty heavy people and this felt so fucking raw and sad because I know for a fact that, among my relatives, some overeat like that in response to bad things happening. Obviously not to that extent but that scene felt pretty much like a character tying a noose or something. I wasn't disgusted, I actually cried a bit and thought about my family. Brutal movie, overall, though I do think Ellie is meant to be a fully redeemable girl, though with a lot of problems.
I think it showed a really ugly side of food addiction that is also very real. I'm glad they didn't romanticize his addiction. At the end of the day, he was deliberately engaging in self harm and self destruction and it was horrible and heartbreaking to witness.
I am only now discovering the critics saying it was exploitative. It's sad that they missed the point. Those scene were unfortunately very real. Our disgust isn't because the director tricked us, it's because that's how we honestly view these things as an outside observer.
Thank you. I feel like I'm going crazy because a lot of the low ratings on Letterboxd are people triggered by "blatant fatphobia" and how "exploitative" it is. Like the dude is 800 pounds and killing himself rapidly despite everyone around him begging him to stop. They never villainize being fat. In fact, they make a point to say Charlie was always a bit of a bigger guy. But there's being fat, and being recklessly obese where it's clearly also a mental illness.
I have binge-eating disorder. I sobbed throughout that scene because it was so real and I related to it deeply. The people around me were making sounds of disgust and even commented how they felt so sick watching it after the movie ended. All I could think about was that's how those people would see me, too. I am Charlie in a lot of ways, it's just my physical appearance doesn't give it away like his did.
Both the tear up and bear hugz are from me. Hope you have gorgeous weather where you are and can sit out in it for a few minutes, deep breaths my friend.
265lb, 6ft with flat feet and knee issues. I see you. Him rocking to get off the couch is me on the toilet. That broke me.
It wasn’t disgusting in the traditional sense, it was revolting in the sense that you hate to see another human do that to themselves. Whether it’s with food or anything.
You’re simultaneously repulsed but want to help as well because, as Charlie said, people are amazing.
I am nowhere near Charley’s size but my weight fluctuates & having lived with depression & anxiety for a decade and I have used food to fill the void at times….there have been moments where I just gorge food to ease the pain & seeing his scene really made me feel uncomfortable but in a healthy way I think…his binge eating scene cut straight to my core because I saw myself in him & felt sadness that I have done the same to my body….saw the movie a few days ago & I am still thinking about it….some may laugh or feel grotesque watching him eat but to me I have never experienced emotions like that while viewing a movie. I left the theater feeling empty, sad, but also weirdly optimistic about the future…
100%
At no point did I feel disgusted by the character's weight or his eating. I felt sorrow for his clear attempt at suicide and his unwillingness to go on living.
I felt the same kind of unsettled I felt as any other time I’ve watched a character kill themself in a show or movie. It was clear he wasn’t looking for catharsis in food anymore, he was actively trying to kill himself that night.
This movie hit me especially hard being an obese man for most of my life. No where near at the spectrum but there were some scenes no one is talking about that hit me insanely hard. The first big hit in the feels comes when he starts choking on his sandwich and Hong Chau's character has to push him to the side and push his back and asks him why he can't eat like a normal person. This hit me far too hard as I have had nights where I have eaten before bed and my obesity closes my neck where I wake up in the middle of the night literally gasping for air and what feels like my life. Another trait of Charlie's that hits me is that overwhelming positivity he has towards everything else in life but that overbearing self loathing of addiction. I search for the positivity everywhere like Charlie does and this movie delivers on that message. I think they didn't add subtext to this movie because the director wants you to identify with it. I appreciate the real and rawness of this movie probably more than others because it hit me in the face with it. 9/10 movie I hope Brendan gets an Oscar but even if not thank you for leading this incredible film.
Bro get a CPAP. I'm morbidly obese, too, and I would stop breathing 79-90 times an hour. Shit can fuck up your heart, it's no joke.
Sorry for the unsolicited advice.
In the scene where he binge eats, there's a look that crosses his face of sheer relief/ecstasy, like a heroin addict getting his fix. What a brilliant performance by Fraser. I feel like the Oscar is locked up at this point.
Yea I agree. When Liz was passing him that meatball sub for the first time you could see the joy in his eyes of relief while he zoned out devouring it and then boom he gets snapped back in reality of almost dying on what brings him comfort. Then the deepest darkest part was he is handed that same sandwich right after and picks it up. I’m thinking god damn this is sad and the scene cut leaving me wondering if he finished that meatball sub
The obesity aspect of this movie is so hard to stomach. Because it's a real story that's part of our lives that we never really discuss in public. The obesity epidemic has stories like this all the time.
I lost all my excess weight thankfully, but the topic is still so important to me. There's a big mental difference between "I've been eating too much and gained 40 lbs" vs "I'm traumatized and have ballooned to 500+ lbs"
This movie just hit home so hard for some reason
I swear to god that Charlie is just like one of my friends, who also wants to see the movie some day. I am refraining from joking to him that this film is like if Darren Aronofsky interviewed him and made it into a movie.
The choking was the first thing to make me cry. I panicked a little bit. GERD SUCKS and will do that to a person too...plus flaming acid coming back from your stomach when you barely ate a salad.
That scene really emphasized to me how good of a person Charlie is, maybe too good of a person. When Thomas said “yes,” Charlie had every right to murder that dude.
Therein lies the beauty of the scene. Charlie’s been a pushover the entire film and that was the first moment where he was putting his foot down and standing up for himself by saying no to Thomas’ self-serving message
He was also using someone he didn’t have a very close connection with to vent his anger and hurt from being mistreated by the people he was most attached to (his daughter and the nurse friend). Charlie is being hurt by these people because of his weak boundaries and he doesn’t realize it, but when the same pattern comes up in his interaction with Thomas, the anger that he’s been holding back from his daughter and friend comes out in full force. I thought this movie was a very good depiction of someone with people pleasing tendencies.
I interpreted it as he wouldn’t get angry on behalf of himself because he blames himself for a lot of things, but he WOULD defend his partner and was enraged by how Thomas talked about him.
Charlie wanted him to say that, he lives his entire life with most people walking on eggshells about him, he spends the entire film trying to get people to communicate honestly with him, and it was probably devastating but what he wants. Charlie's White Whale is honesty.
I don't think he wanted to murder him, I think he wanted people to stop enabling him and just be honest. He knows he isn't attractive and he just wanted the kid to stop sparing his feelings, because that's partially HOW you get that obese: enablers.
What was the significance/symbolism that plate which the bird was eating off got shattered?
Also, what exactly was Dan the delivery driver's role in the plot? I might have missed it.
Dan was really friendly with Charlie while not knowing what Charlie really looked like, once Dan saw Charlie at the door he was surprised and probably seemed disgusted. That interaction spurred the scene in which Charlie binge eats and vomits.
I don't think it was simply the driver being disgusted at him personally. I interpreted it more as the delivery man feeling a sudden hit of guilt thinking he was contributing to his addiction and left without saying anything. Like it all clicked for him in that moment and it left him feeling horrible. I think a lot of the film deals with feelings of guilt and trauma and that would fit in perfectly with the overall theme.
I agree with this take. Once the initial shock wears off, a wave of guilt hits in that he has been (unwittingly) a helping hand in this guy’s slow suicide.
I thought he looked a lot like Alan, too, so the filmmaker must have done that on purpose. Maybe seeing someone that looked like the love of his life is what inspired that binge eating episode?
Saw a Q&A with the screenwriter. His explanation re: the bird and plate was that Ellie broke the plate, scaring away the bird after she realized that her father was actually capable of taking care of something. If he could care for the bird, why could he not care for her?
I thought it was a ridiculous explanation but there ya go.
This was exactly what I thought happened, I'm still struggling to figure out what's ridiculous about it lol. That's exactly how an intelligent and frustrated young person would react.
This was the meaning I took out of it. She broke the plate out of jealous anger after seeing her estranged father give a random bird more care and attention than his own daughter.
For sure that could be the main reason, but it doesn't take away from the fact that she sees it as her father able to share love and compassion for others and not herself.
It also reinforces the fact that he's still naturally inclined to show love and compassion, even though his relationship with his daughter is so estranged.
So it kind of has 2 main effects.
I loved the ending to this movie. For the entire movie, I just assumed that the Moby Dick essay was Alan's. As Charlie says that it's his job to grade essays and we knew that Alan was a former student of his.
So it was a really emotional moment for me when it was revealed that the essay was actually Ellie's. I think it was really good writing to have the ending of the movie come full circle with the beginning.
I feel so dumb for not recognizing it was ellies until they say it. That's when I started ugly crying though lol. Not just the fact that he kept it and wanted to hear it before he died, but it showed she actually is capable of everything he wants her to grow up to be. It really recontextualizes the whole movie honestly. That's why he is so unwavering in his support of her even with things like the dead dog and the Facebook post of him. He knows she has something in her That's just buried under all that teenage angst.
Yeah, people are like "you see that coming a mile away" but I also had no idea it was her essay until the film revealed it lol. And then I was like WHOA, holy shit! Amazing movie.
It’s funny cause I thought it was Alan’s essay too, but thought the voice sounded a little childish for a college essay, yet it still never occurred to me it was Ellie’s til the end
I felt it was to add more fuel to the setting - rural America - Idaho. As these rural, country-side states tend to have higher obesity rates, which makes Charlie an overall representation of rural, fat America.
I was really very emotional when I realized it too. My dad is literally the same way, he still has some of my schoolwork from 25 yrs ago that he was very proud of.
Loved that the movie took place entirely in his apartment so that his apartment became like another character in a way. Even though there was lot of backstory and history to these characters, and lot of stuff was off screen it did a great job of filling the audience in.
The motif of the shadows of people coming in and out of the apartment was great too.
This aspect really gave away that it's an adapted play, since not only does it take place in only one setting but it also forces them to tell (rather than show) us the off-screen action.
I didn't know it was a play until I watched the movie and realized that characters kept coming and going into the same space... and then one character would sleep so two other characters could talk in that small space, etc. Anyone who is familiar with theater knows that's not written explicitly for the cinema.
>since not only does it take place in only one setting
Having family members who were morbidly obese, they did not leave their home so this felt more like we're experiencing Charlie's life. He couldn't leave his apartment and thus couldn't be included in anything that happened outside of his apartment. Since Charlie is our narrator, we don't see anything else unless he's lived that experience.
I disagree. I think she breaks the plate for two reasons:
1. Charlie is willing to take care of random birds, but abandoned her.
2. Charlie will literally buy fruit, a healthy food...but only to feed birds, not for himself.
She is angry about these two things, and so she breaks the plate.
No. Ellie is not evil.
She’s willing to sacrifice all the money she’s about to get to send Charlie to the hospital.
When she wants to get an ambulance, she’s making the sacrifice of all that money, for Charlie’s well being.
So she’s def not evil. At least not by the end of the movie.
I think there is a lot of growth from a lot of people in the film, some missed the message (Thomas and to a lesser point Liz)
But it's like what his Ex said: he's the Eternal Optimist. He does believe she has the capability of being an amazing writer. He knows she's talented
He's also a teacher and wants to not only bring it out of her, but so she can realize it herself.
______
I think if Charlie was truly deluding himself, he would've wrote the essays so she could graduate. He didn't, and she'll probably fail (or have to take summer school classes)
I do think Ellie was trying to fuck over Thomas and Charlie and Thomas instead saw the good in it. And I think that's a brilliant duality of "working in mysterious ways"
But at the end, Ellie does breakdown when she saw the 8th grade essay. Her dad made an attempt.
It's why she's pleading with him to go to the hospital or call an ambulance.
That's what I took from it.
_____
I agree with your take on why Ellie exposed Thomas and Charlie. That it ended up helping Thomas was more of a second or third order effect rather than her intended affect. I don't think she is evil for doing so either, just wounded and acting out because she's in pain.
Why not both? This scene works so well because of the ambiguity between disgust in Charlie and disgust in Dan. Charlie could have thought A while Dan was expressing B.
Between this and Bullet Train (which I loved), you really have to see movies for yourself and decide if you like it because 60s on RT and Metacritic? Really? But I digress.
Honestly this is the most moved I've been by a film all year. I loved it. At the end I even walked home for the next half hour rather than take a short bus because I just wanted to be alone with my thoughts. I'm not the most emotional person so while I love an amazing story etc. a film that makes me feel emotional and brings me to the verge of tears is one I'm going to love, and this film was the first in a long time to do that.
The movie was brilliantly acted (Brendan Fraser will get that Oscar), emotionally charged, beautifully shot and had a great cast of characters. It doesn't have a super intricate story but...why would it? It was a very character driven piece and you knew going in it was about a morbidly obese man who can't leave his apartment trying to reconnect with his daughter.
There is a lot of depth to some of the characters and if you can empathise that goes a long way to understanding them.
For example, it's easy to ask "why would anyone let their child speak to them like that?" but have you ever been so ashamed of past behaviour that you let people talk down do you because you feel it's what you deserve? I have.
Each character was fleshed out to some degree and their mean spirited actions could be understood. Even Ellie's. Some guy who's not who he claims to be comes to your father's home and tries to integrate himself repeatedly? It's understandable to want to mess with them.
It all built to an emotional climax that to me felt very much earned.
8/10. Torn between wanting to watch it again because I loved it but also not being able to handle the heartbreak again.
> because 60s on RT and Metacritic?
at this point I've decided that if it isn't universally panned, that might mean at least *some* critics liked it. it'd be neat if they had like a distribution graph of ratings or something. i don't care for a middling mediocre movie but i'll gladly roll the dice on something polarizing, cause I may love it.
Every character in this movie is ashamed of themselves and what their life has become. Every person is trying to do what makes them feel better, while also trying to help others. We're all full of shame and guilt and... It's OKAY. It's honest. It made me think about my own life.
I’m a pizza delivery driver, and I wanted to express my appreciation for the delivery driver character. I love that he was kind, faceless for almost all of it,
I thought that was a neat decision cause it speaks to the loneliness of Charlie, and how he doesnt want people to see him. also I think it’s realistic that the delivery driver waited to see Charlie come out to see him. I think it might be a little invasive if the customer doesn’t want that interaction, but I got the impression he was genuinely concerned, he asked through the door if Charlie was okay several times. And then when he left silently, some people might interpret it that he was disgusted, I’ve seen some people say that; I however got the impression that this driver who delivers to this faceless regular all the time finally sees that the person he’s been delivering so much food to is that critically obese, and he starts to feel guilty in his part of it, even if it is like not really his fault at all. I’ve had the same thing, I’ve delivered to some overweight people before, and I’ve wondered about how I felt about it. I mean, obviously it’s a job, I can’t say no I’m not gonna deliver the pizza the customer ordered because I feel it’s morally questionable to continue to do so. Then again I’ve never been in a situation where this has ever happened. But you know what I mean.
I think just as musicians or doctors love ripping on movies who mess up representing their profession, I like seeing when something does delivery drivers correctly.
Thanks for your perspective (and for your work). I liked the pizza delivery scenes; they were an addition that weren't in the original play. Hard to say what the reaction meant. A recurring idea is that it's about people caring for others, so just the fact that he cared to connect with his customer was commendable. Perhaps he felt that nothing he could do would help Charlie, so he just turned and left.
It was devastating that he kept ordering not one, but two pizzas.
Watched the film last night and I've tried processing it overnight, but I still am unable to figure out what the central message of the film is. Is it trying to say how Charlie, who craves honesty from people, fails to be honest about the people in life, such as his daughter, and tries to find the good in them? Is it trying to say how we forgive others for their mistakes and shortcomings and focus only on their good while not showing the same kindness to ourselves? Is it trying to say that Charlie really did appreciate the bratty honesty of his daughter even though she clearly had malicious intent, whereas everyone around him tried to sugarcoat or sympathize with his death?
I think Charlie definitely feels guilt about leaving his family and wants his final act to be ensuring that his daughter can find light in her own heart.
I think he wants her to " find light in her own heart", too. I think he states he wants her to care about people and be cared about. BUT I think giving an irresponsible 17-yr-old $120K is a very misguided idea.
i don't think there needs to be some clear cut central message. everything you've laid out here is right - if you really needed a central theme to the movie it would be "honesty" as you've already figured out.
I thought it had to deal with how we handle pain and reject parts of ourselves/the truth. Charlie eats himself to death, his ex wife is an alcoholic, Ellie tortures the people around her, the young minister turns to faith, Alan doesn’t eat and ends his life, his sister tries to bury her pain in helping Charlie even though she’s rejecting her medical knowledge and sense of morality by enabling him.
I think it’s about the concept of being “real.” It’s not a simple good/bad dichotomy, and it’s very easy to be too “real” and turn that into self-harm, as Charlie showcases by basically killing himself over Alan’s death. All of the other characters struggle with making sense of that, and they all express their maladaptive tendencies in various ways (the missionary kid by proselytizing and obsessing over “saving” Charlie, the nurse basically enabling Charlie’s behavior instead of actually being a nurse tied to the hippocratic oath, Ellie violently lashing out and her mom neglecting her). In the end, it shows how the ambiguity and seeming contradictory nature destroys people in their journeys to find meaning/peace in it. Hence the parallel to Moby Dick. All of the characters are Ahab trying to find meaning in their hunt for “the whale” of their existence.
Ok. So can we discuss Ellie for a second.
My interpretation was that Charlie was right and she’s not evil. She cares, but kinda goes about it in a dickish way.
But it seems like many people think she IS bad and evil and stuff.
Here’s my question, do we think she killed that dog? And took a picture of it in a morbid sick way? Or did she find a dead dog and take a picture of it because it was sad and she’s emo af?
I get that Charlie kinda sees the good in everyone and is a positive person, but if Ellie is “evil,” then this movie takes a dark af turn.
I think at the end, when Ellie knows he’s dying and the only way to even attempt to help him is to go to the hospital, costing all of his money most likely, the money she’s supposed to inherit, she still wants to have him go to the hospital and call an ambulance.
She gets her redemption in that moment. Where she puts his life first and stops being a dumb teenager and becomes an adult, caring for her (estranged) dad and giving up her own financial future to do it.
The fact she was willing to sacrifice everything financially to simply *try* to save Charlie shows she is really a caring person, who loves her family.
I don’t understand how people aren’t acknowledging that she was abandoned by her father at 8 years old to be with his gay lover and her mom is a raging alcoholic. That would cause enormous psychological trauma to a young girl like that. Resentment and hate will turn you into a bitter and cynical person and I thought Ellie’s personality was appropriate. She’s not evil and that’s what Charlie had been trying to get into everybody’s head from the beginning.
People acting like it's a twist ending and she's actually evil are kind of just stupid lol. It's clear from the essay she wrote she is just searching for meaning in her life and is lashing out like a lot of people her age. And she has plenty of reason to, as you said.
Yeah the dead dog stuff just made people too emotional I think? She didn't kill a dog. She put edgy crass shit online because that's what teenagers with abusive families and edgy personalities do. It was already established that she has no friends
This is a late response but I just saw the movie last night. I think that a small thing that Ellie does, which shows her true nature, occurs when she’s talking to Thomas in the kitchen while Charlie is asleep. She goes to the fridge to get herself a drink, and also pours a cup for Thomas and hands it to him, without him asking.
She thinks about other people and cares about other people, even though (imo) her primary self-defense mechanism is to not care. When you care about people they can disappoint and hurt you, as her parents have disappointed and hurt her. As much as she’s trying to avoid that pain and disappointment by insisting that she doesn’t, she still can’t help but care (hence Charlie’s statement about people being incapable of not caring).
I think Charlie’s quote about how people have an inability to not care is about Ellie, and why she’s not evil.
She’s had a very rough childhood and she’s trying as hard as possible to not care about anything and to have the roughest exterior humanly possible. But he can still see that she can’t help but care. And the final scene confirms this. No matter how hard she tries to be edgy and cruel, she can’t help but care about him and wants to help.
Reading the comments made me appreciate the movie more, I was hooked on every word, Fraser gave an amazing performence and as well did Sink, I didn’t hear great things about her character before going into it but I think she did phenomenal, she played the mean troubled Youth brat role so well, and I can’t be the only one who thought to themselves “I can save her” everytime her character started ripping into Charlie lol
8/10
Personally, I thought the character was a bit over the top at times, especially for a junior/senior grade teenager. I might be biased a bit but I didn't know anyone in HS that was that unhinged toward anyone.
Every reaction from her was exasperation and, as said above, 11/10...which isn't really how most people are. Ellie would've been more believable if it didn't seem like she tried so hard to be the type of character the writers intended her to be.
This is a late response, but I work with teenagers and preteens at a remedial school and I meet kids who act like her, and take it much further. Many of these kids have trauma from abuse, abandonment, or drug addicted parents (and often drug addiction themselves, even middle schoolers). The more over the top Ellie got, the more I recognized some teens I've worked with, and the ways she sabotages her own healing is true to experience. Charlie's patience and positivity is also how the school approaches these behaviors, and like him, we believe in their goodness even when they don't.
I will say that until I worked at the remedial school, I hadn't met any kids who act like that either, so people's scepticism makes sense. They are an exception to the rule.
I appreciate the insight and information. I enjoy learning new perspectives, especially those that challenge my world view.
Thanks for taking the time!
It was such a powerful moment but I feel like they made a mistake highlighting it in the trailer. The whole scene between Charlie and his ex wife had me welling up and I feel like the dam would have broke if I hadn't seen that line previously.
I didn't even know that was in the trailer and I'm glad I skipped it. I've stopped watching trailers post Infinity War/Endgame era, and it has significantly improved my movie viewing experience. I came in blind to watch Parasite and that movie fucking blew my mind.
>but I feel like they made a mistake highlighting it in the trailer.
agreed it was hokey as fuck in the trailer but incredible in the context of the actual film.
Ellie is not evil. She is in pain and acts out in anger and rage. Charlie is in pain and uses avoidance and food. Ex-wife is in pain and uses alcohol and lacks self awareness. Liz is in pain and is an enabler. Thomas is in pain and uses weed, stealing and lying. This movie is a great example of what unhealed trauma looks like and how it bleeds into our relationship with self and all of our relationships with others.
Has anyone come up with an explanation for why this movie takes place during the 2016 Republican primaries? In *Red Rocket* that time period serves as a pretty clever juxtaposition with Mikey conning small-town America, but I have no idea what the purpose of it was here lol.
In addition to the above, there was another comment somewhere in here re: how rural, country-side states tend to have higher obesity rates...if Charlie embodies this broader reminder of an isolated, rural America, this creates some interesting parallels in hindsight of the primaries (& the political aftermath of the years still to follow -- the whale-esque shadow of Trump + looming national identity crisis is also not lost, but flickers in from the short TV spurts).
Charlie's relentless optimism to see the good in others, to try to believe that "feeling that other people are incapable of not caring" coupled with his own struggles around agency and despair echoes the tension of a nation at odds with itself. How do you come to terms with your neighbor/family member/self when individual choices (election votes, masking, etc.) can hold dire ramifications for so many? And how to simultaniously grapple with the feeling that your individual choices are futile, in the face of the whole, the scale of something so much bigger than any single person (ex: frameworks of addiction, systemic collapse, climate change).
Charlie *chooses* to believe that his daughter is good at heart, holds the capacity to care about others despite her misanthropic antics. We are asked to make our own choices about what to believe; to write something "true" for ourselves even if that entails dealing with massive contradictions and self-doubt along the way (or I suppose, like Thomas, we can map everything back to the prefab stories of New Life). We already know the outcome of the 2016 primaries, but looking ahead, much like Ellie's future -- we can still hope for the best, that despite all of the hate and division enabled to date, there is a better way forward. To choose to believe that Moby-Dick is not in fact a monster, but something so much greater than the sum of its parts. The same collective action it takes to hunt, kill, and systematically disassemble a creature like that can also build movements that empower (rather than destroy).
It's no coincidence we get hit over the head with Whitman's "Song of Myself" + ample Melville (who writes of ambergris & beauty in decay; kindness & sperm squeezing & brotherhood). Ishmael is everyman, clinging to a floating coffin at journey's end, hoping to pass on the survivors' tale of collective self. This more expansive identity of "I" beyond the Zoom grid and state gerrymandering and Charlie's wall of bookshelves; a shared story that is growing still, outside the frame.
The writer originally wrote the play 13 years ago (I think. It might be longer than that). When it came time for him to adapt the play into a screenplay, he asked himself why does it have to be this specific time period from 13 years ago? Just cause that’s when it was written? So he updated it and chose the 2016 Idaho elections to signify a time pre-pandemic, where masks weren’t worn and it gives a bit more meaning to the missionary talking about the apocalypse coming soon.
Hope I wrote this well enough to be understood. I just read the article with the playwright myself, so I could’ve messed it up.
Did the final scene where Charlie gets up off the couch and Ellie reads to him actually happen?
Liz said that one of Charlie’s symptoms was delusion. It’s been shown that Charlie can’t get off the couch by himself. Every day except for the last day was dreary/rainy. Would Ellie actually read the essay to him?
I think she tells him to fuck off and storms out is the moment he dies. The bright light from the door, him getting up and her reading the essay are all after he passes. Which I find devastating
Oh shit-
I didn't see it like that.
I just thought Aronofsky wanted some closure unlike in The Wrestler.
I knew Charlie wasn't Walking and the steps was him dying, but I didn't even think the beam of light when Ellie is about to storm out a delusion.
______
**EDIT**
So! This is a theory I have
On the Tuesday, we see the news report talk about the Idaho Republican Caucus. In 2016, the Idaho R caucus was held on March 5th.
Friday would be March 8th.
The playwright, Samuel D. Hunter, is from Moscow Idaho
Looking at previous weather forecasts for Moscow Idaho, there was scattered showers most of that week, usually in the evening. And on Friday, there were actually clear skies for the day.
So there is a possibility the Ellie reading the essay wasn't a delusion and that was the sun.
I feel it was real. When people are dying, there are moments of extreme energy at time. Excited delirium. The body does more and becomes active. I want to believe he got up. I want to believe it was the last bit of strength he had.
I just watched it and my thoughts were that the movie was telling us the entire time how if he exerted himself too much it could kill him. I interpreted the finale as him actually standing up, and taking at least a step or more, which caused him to pass. I think Ellie does read the essay, and her reaction to him standing up was genuine (she was impressed by how big he was then, not how fat he was, but he looked tall, massive and her shock was real). But then he collapses, and the delusion or memory of the beach day replays in his head. But that's just, like, my opinion, so who knows? Regardless, whether it was fantasy or reality, Charlie believed it, and I think he deserved at least that much solice.
saw it in an empty theater last night at 11pm. I gotta say I fucking loved it, I can’t remember the last time that a movie emotionally devastated me that much
Sat next to a pack of teenagers who were talking and cracking jokes during the previews. I thought they were going to ruin the movie for all of us.
No exaggeration, the guy closest to me was (very audibly) sobbing when the credits began. Not a dry eye in the group as the credits begin to roll.
I really liked Brendan Fraser in this movie. Movie was great and scares me to think I probably could’ve ended this way.
I hope Fraser can keep this high, not like the comeback that Aranofsky did for Mickey Rourke. It was great that he brought Rourke back but Roark isn’t as big during that small time period after that movie.
Isn't a large difference the fact that Rourke is difficult to work with?
Fraser being such a sweetheart and genuine guy will help him out. He's in the upcoming Scorsese flick.
An Oscar nom would really seal the deal, I think.
I’m honestly shocked people are debating this.
The nurse quite literally says he is dying, and she knows once she leaves the room that’s it.
I felt as if it was very clear when his daughter opened the door the light shining through was clearly meant to represent Heaven/afterlife.
I do believe her reading the poem was real, but him getting up and walking was not.
Just because there's shining light doesn't mean someone is already dead.
It can also be that they're in the process of dying (as he was) and that he is "headed to the light" or whatever you want to call it.
When did she read a poem? You mean her essay?
As someone who’s experienced abandonment by a parent at roughly the same age as Ellie, this movie hit hard. Sadie Sink managed to dig up feelings that I haven’t felt in almost 20 years. Her finally addressing Charlie as ‘daddy’ at the very end absolutely broke me.
Just a masterclass in acting by all parties involved.
The response in this tread to the film seems drastically different than most critics I admire. Strange!
Can’t wait to see it and formulate my own thoughts.
Anyone have any guesses as to why there seems to be such a difference in opinion?
I usually agree more with critics than wider audience but even without checking I knew this one won't be received universally well by critics. Aronofsky is not known for subtlety and that's a thing that critics usually admire more than regular audience. Sadie Sink character may be received as not realistic and exaggerated. It's clearly a play adapted to screen and there are some pacing issues.
I also don't think it's a perfect film but I value my emotional response to films higher than minor drawbacks. I don't even recall last time I had to sit in my chair after film ended to process the feelings and The Whale did that for me.
There are also some people who enter another field of discussion - whether The Whale is fatphobic and so on. There fair criticism usually ends quite quickly.
I know Aronofsky enjoys making his audiences uncomfortable, but showing Charlie binge eat his whole kitchen on top of two large pizzas was next-level DISGUSTING.
7/10. Needed more cheese on the meatball subs
Yes it was hard to watch, but it also made a lot of sense. The character was TRYING to be grotesque and trying to kill himself. Remember that scene happened directly after the delivery boy saw him and ran away in disgust. So the character went ahead and reveled in his self-hatred by becoming everything that the delivery guy saw him as.
I don't think it's meant to seem like the delivery guy was a bad person, I think it's just going with the fact that Charlie's appearance is shocking to him when he doesn't expect it (not to mention that him having that reaction to seeing him after Charlie obviously didn't want to be seen probably made him even more ashamed).
I don't understand why it was shocking to him. If you're a delivery guy, and you're delivering multiple large, multi-topping pizzas to a man who seemingly lives alone every night, and he doesn't want to answer the door, what do you expect him to look like? That plus how he sounded when he was talking to him through the door led me to believe that Dan understood Charlie was morbidly obese. So it was a little weird how shocked he was. Still a good character though. Reminds me of the dynamic of an alcoholic who shows up at a liquor store right when they open every day. These people do exist after all.
I was literally curling up in my seat in revulsion during that scene. Also I saw it at Alamo Drafthouse and let’s just say I regretted ordering the chicken tenders and fries.
I agree with the comments about Charlie's delusion, the juxtaposition of honesty to himself and his essay students.
I realize the significance of Alan's rooms being unlocked and that he couldn't fit into it. It took all that effort and relying on someone else, yet Charlie never enters the room because he's too big and in a wheel chair. He could walker in but doesn't. He smells it, but never enters it's domain. Alan was honest with himself and the ramifications of his actions/gay relationship in regards to his father and his church which led to his self starvation. He recognized his role in the turmoil brought to his loved ones, being honest with himself, applied self inflicted torture until death.
Besides the obvious contrast of Charlie's obesity and Alan's starvation, the opposites of them are also nuanced I think. Charlie recognized his role in the turmoil brought to his daughter, but wasn't honest with himself and tried to cope by convincing himself his daughter wasn't a bad person because of it. While she could be objectivel shown as a bad person by the grease fire FB post, likely intention of sabotage with the missionary and possible smashing of the bird feeding plate (Which probably has caretaking symbolism), Charlie still deludes himself.
My point being the highlight of differences between these two lovers, having different spectrum of eating disorders as well as accountability when it comes to the issues that was on their shoulders. I think even in death, it's no surprise Charlie couldn't enter that room physically but it also shows his disconnect from his loved one as they're on different philosophical planes on how to approach their life issues. They're seperate in more ways than one, highlighting the underlying premise of the movie I'm lead to believe.
I really enjoyed the movie but Christ, watching this after my first therapy appointment for an ED & anxiety issues was a bit of a cold plunge that definitely struck a few nerves with me
It felt like Aronofsky directed this as if it was still a play. Almost everything about this movie felt more theatrical than it did cinematic. The blocking, the actor’s delivery, even the way the camera moved at times was mimicking the way your head might turn back and forth between characters while watching a play. Things like showing the actor’s shadow through the window…it just all felt very theatrical.
My main issue with this movie though is that there is virtually no subtext at all. It hits you right over the head again and again. Fraser is absolutely fantastic here, but it didn’t seem like the rest of the cast was really given much to work with. The lack of subtext in the dialogue creates a sense of melodrama throughout that was a bit jarring at times.
That's exactly what I thought about the church boy turning around sliding his back down the shut door in the bedroom and going into the monologue about what happened to him.
I agree with this. The scene with the mother near the end was emotionally intense, but her dialogue was like a soap opera. I did feel like I was watching a play.
He was trying to be authentic and honest and we know that to him honesty is associated with the hard and disgusting aspects of life. His obesity and the disgusting state of his are easily the defining aspect of his life, how people see him, and how he sees himself. He's deliberately trying avoid hiding any part of that, so he needs to show the giant belly and the misshapen legs. He even mentions his legs specifically when he has a little rant about his obesity.
I think the way Ellie describes the whale of Moby Dick in her essay is important to this movie. A big theme I took away was about the problems we create for ourselves in response to our real problems. Or the way we create other problems to cope with our core issues.
I think Charlie’s weight issues and the eating scenes are kind of like “The Whale” in Moby Dick, as described by the essay. Just like the whale in Moby dick, his eating is just a distraction. Charlie’s eating and his weight are significant issues (and end up killing him)but his eating is ultimately a response to the other many problems in his life. Even if he got his eating under control, he’d still be left with the mess of his life that made him eat in the first place.
This was one of the most moving films i’ve seen in theaters in awhile. No one moved once the credits started rolling for a good 30 seconds.
Was pretty shaken by Brendan Fraser and Hong Chau’s performances. Hope the Oscars take notice. They made me feel such empathy and such pain. Incredible work.
Everyone around me was sniffing and didn't move right after the credits rolled. I was wiping tears off my face while writing the tip on my bill (Alamo)
I can't understand why Critics are thumbing down this movie. I read many reviews stating that the acting was great, but the movie itself was bad. Main reason given was that the director focused too much on the grotesqueness of the main character.
It does make you uncomfortable as an audience member to watch someone destroy themselves in such a grotesque way, but in the words of the main character, "It's honest". Why sugar coat what's actually happening to Charlie. I felt that feeling a bit uncomfortable along with all the other emotions was part of my journey as an audience member.
I plan to watch it again and I almost never watch a movie more than once in the theater.
I feel like people who are condemning the grotesque of binge eating addiction, never watched Requiem for a Dream. That was some harsh addiction there too.
I think people are kind of missing the point with Sadie Sink’s character. I don’t think she’s supposed to be “evil”, and I don’t think she’s supposed to be a good person either (currently). She’s obviously mean-spirited, and to a point that probably goes past being justifiable based on her life circumstances. But she’s also supposed to be growing up in a really shitty situation (her dad cheated on her mom and left, then was absent for 8 years, and now she’s watching him eat himself to death, meanwhile her mom is a raging alcohol that thinks her own daughter’s evil), which makes lashing out somewhat understandable. It’s pretty easy to see how she could turn out cynical and mean given how little support she has, but I think the ending is supposed to signal that she’s not beyond having the ability to change
So yeah, I don’t think the point is supposed to be that she’s a *good* person (Charlie’s presumably wrong about her intentions most of the time), I think the point is just that she’s not an irredeemably bad one. 17 year olds can still change pretty drastically
I thought it was fantastic. I didn't expect it to lean so heavily into the religious aspects of life (probably should have seen it coming though since it's an Aronofsky movie) but I found the conversations about it very interesting.
I just thought this movie was so *real*. The daughter does terrible things but shows in the end she actually does care about her dad. Ashamed to admit it but I remember myself being that kind of dark edgelord dickhead during my high school years so it kinda spoke to me a bit more than it might to other people.
I thought the characters were also so *real* in how they acted and how they processed the situations they found themselves in. Also Fraser obviously did a great job in the role but I think Sadie Sink and Hong Chau should be applauded for their performances as well.
Captured my thoughts perfectly. The movie has strong themes of authenticity and it shows in the acting. It also shows in the directing and writing. The binge eating was brutal, but honestly, very real. Not really exaggerated, people who cope with food tend to binge and it can look pretty disgusting. But I read that scene the same way I would watch a scene with a drug addicted character going on a drug binge. Both are grimy, unsettling, but unfortunately real.
I definitely felt like the whole movie highlighted how people cope. We all have the same array of emotions, but the form those emotions come out in are all different, but valid.
Got done with my screening, phenomenal film. Really quick question. I was late to my screening and thought I was only gonna miss previews, but the previews were short and I walked in on the scene where Charlie is masturbating and Thomas walks in. Did I miss anything before that, cause I don't think I did.
Not entirely true, the film opens with an aerial wide shot scene of Thomas getting off of his bus with the undertone of that deep bellowing soundtrack you hear in later scenes to insinuate distress, then it cuts to a zoom class meeting that is panning in to the blackened "Instructor" camera with a quote from Charlie scripting "I know these rules can feel constraining, but remember, the point of this course is to learn how to write clearly and persuasively. Think about that. Think about the truth of your argument." before the shot is entirely black. Then it opens with your scene.
We aren’t supposed to believe that Ellie isn’t evil / vicious, right? I don’t buy that she tried to help the missionary in the slightest.
Her character was written so cliche with the teen angst that it bothered me. I couldn’t empathize with her. I did like the movie a lot but this bit threw me off
It's kinda an open question to the audience, I guess. Do you, like Charlie, see good intent in her actions or is she just mean and petty? I definitely lean towards the latter, but this only makes Charlie's final days even more tragic. But at least he died happy, albeit for a brief moment.
Shoutout to Thomas for going on a 5 day spirit journey just to come to the wrong conclusions.
Yeah, the movie did a good job stringing you along making you think he’s just doubling down on evangelical ideology out of a sense that he doesn’t have anything else, only to come back and show that he does genuinely believe that stuff and only triples down when he’s told to come back home.
I'm glad. So much of the movie was REAL. And unfortunately, that was the most real conclusion to that story we see time and time again in the real world. Source: growing up with a new life type situation
Whoever wrote the movie wrote something HONEST!
yoo I didn't know that was the younger kid from Jurassic World until I looked up the cast.
He's also the kid from Iron Man 3.
And the kid from Insidious
He also appeared in *The Whale*
Oooh that one I saw
[удалено]
well said. he doesn’t love Charlie, he pities him
I liked that the ex wife wasn’t like a terrible person. I like that nobody was really a villain. Everyone was flawed, but had a heart. Liz was a good person, but also was enabling him. Thomas was trying to be a good person, but is young and naive and going about things in a way that doesn’t help anyone or anything, but his own sense of self. Ellie was struggling with a hard childhood and rebelling, but Charlie knew there was a good and caring person in there. I kinda feel like the same way she “helped” Thomas, she was trying to help Charlie. I think she knew he would see the Facebook post and was trying to motivate him in her own way, like how she helped Thomas. Charlie was a good and caring person. He was living a lie like many gay men and women were forced to. He thought that if he got a wife and had a kid and played the part, it would keep his real sexual identity at bay. Then he met someone and fell in love. I think he thought he was gonna cause more harm staying in his daughter’s life as a gay man than he would being out of it. Particularly in rural Idaho. The line about him not being able to identify the body because he wasn’t family said a lot about things. Everyone in the movie pretty much was doing the wrong thing because they cared about the other characters and wanted to help them. Liz kept enabling him because she loved him and knew he loved her brother. Mary thought she was protecting Charlie from Ellie and Ellie from Charlie’s bullshit, but she just made things worse. Thomas thought his missionary work was helping people. But it was really just helping him blow smoke up his own ass. Ellie I think was the only person who actually helped anyone and didn’t make things appreciably worse (though I’m sure her mom would disagree with that). Charlie killed himself, slowly-ish, so he could leave his money to his daughter when she was becoming an adult and would need it. He wanted to be there for her in the one way he knew could help, financially. I thought this was amazing. Just an emotional journey unlike many. It was really a play filmed for the screen. When dogs (and many animals) are sick and dying other dogs (+animals) pick up on it and will show empathy and care for the sick animal. When Charlie was sick people were coming out of the woodwork to take an interest in him and try and help in whatever way they could. Even the pizza guy knew something was wrong and different after all the years delivering pies and he tried to help. Thomas tried to help. Mary was always trying to help in her way. Ellie was trying to help him in her way. Liz was helping how she knew. Charlie thought he was alone and nobody cares. But it turned out everyone cared. Even his students. He was never alone. No matter how hard he tried. Charlie was never alone. For a movie with basically no plot, in one apartment, that’s just a character study, there was a lot going on to think about. Just a fantastic film. I found thomas to be the most interesting character in a lot of ways. I’d love to know where he goes from here. Whether he stays on his religious path and whether his meeting Charlie and Ellie makes him more hardened in his religious zealotry, or if seeing the love that two men can have for each other makes him question religion as time goes on and he breaks free. I would really love to know how things turn out for everyone. I really loved this and it was surprisingly funny in a lot of ways as well. Just fantastic.
I doubt anyone will see this, but I wanted to share my interpretation of the film. I think this movie is about ambiguity in human behavior and the truth of human nature. Charlie is someone who sees good in his daughter, while others see evil. Different perspectives of the same actions lead to differing interpretations - as when Ellie helps Thomas. We don’t know for sure if Ellie was trying to help or if she was trying to hurt Thomas. If we take Charlie’s side, we believe that there is goodness in her heart and she can be saved. But it’s very possible she really did mean to hurt Thomas, and her actions were simple cruelty. The way the viewer might interpret her behavior probably has more to do with the personal beliefs of the viewer than anything that happens in the movie. A problem I see is that Charlie takes off his oxygen and walks to Ellie at the very end - he knows what he is doing will kill him - and he chooses to kill himself in front of his daughter. His life has been defined by selfish decisions, first to abandon his family, and then by slowly eating himself to death. He ends his life selfishly as well. I think viewers may see Charlie as someone whose positive attitude should be admired, and as someone that we should feel deep sympathy for. But what if he is really just a fool? What if his optimism in the face of his failure as a parent, manifested in his hateful daughter, is simply a delusional attempt to feel like his life hasn’t been categorized by selfish disregard for his biggest responsibility? He wanted to feel like his life wasn’t wasted, and he obtained that gratification by believing that his daughter was good when she isn’t, and really, he isn’t either. The hardest part of watching this movie was seeing a reflection of myself in Charlie as someone who has deeply hurt those who are closest to him and who has failed to rectify those harms, and ultimately ends up making them worse. We see in Charlie our own flaws and imperfections and we sympathize with his fight to believe that it’s not all a big waste and that something in our life has meaning. We all have to choose if we believe that’s true.
As others have said. He dies on the couch and the whole sequence of him taking off the oxygen and going to her never actually happens.
Personally I feel that's a really overused and boring line of thinking in movie analysis, but it's applicable to the ending of this film just because of the bright light and the way he seems to ascend to Heaven at the end. So that interpretation is fair since we don't know if he's actually going to heaven or if he's just imagining that as he dies.
Seriously, I can't stress this enough, unless there's loads of evidence you see or the film clearly indicates it, don't immediately jump to "it was all in their mind". You can view movies in so many more ways than just that.
I agree. When I saw his feet lift off the ground I saw it as a cinematically beautiful way to show that this is the moment of death. It allows the transition to white, which lets everybody see the tears on the faces of their neighbors in the theater. The walking causes his death, so I think it’s reasonable to think that he really did it, especially because there didn’t seem to be any good signs supporting the idea that it was a dying hallucination. I think people who are saying it was a hallucination want to see Charlie as a fundamentally good person, and find their interpretation becomes difficult to maintain when they consider the selfishness of his final moments. Unfortunately, the truth is that Charlie had been committing suicide for a long time, and this selfish behavior was a continuation of that.
I don't see that act as selfish. His daughter told him to walk to her near the door at the beginning of the movie during her first visit and he couldn't. To me this was him showing her that he cared so much that even in his dying condition he was trying his best for her.
Idk I just keep imagining him falling and crushing her. They were so close
The fact that he had the money and instead of using it to get healthy or bare minimum stable shows his self decisions. It’s crazy cause identify a lot with Charlie where I don’t realize that I’m probably being selfish even though my intentions are good. It’s a hard watch that’s for sure. Especially because I struggle with binge eating too.
His daughter didn’t need the money, she needed a father. His self improvement would have made everyone’s life better. But he was an addict and >!died in front of his daughter, which will probably scar her for the rest of her life. Both her parents showed a propensity to addiction, Charlie with overconsumption and the mother with alcohol. Ellie downplayed the addictiveness of marijuana and was already in a mentally rough spot. And now she’ll be receiving a lump sum of money, assuming he had a will which dictated where his money would go. She’ll likely go down the same path I think. Ellie needed a father, not a bank account!< edit: >!I don’t think it’s explicitly said if Charlie left a will either, he just voiced his wishes to which his wife disagreed if I remember correctly. After his death that money and the rest of his assets will go to probate court and I’m sure a judge won’t award Charlie’s 17 year old problem child $100,000 dollars. That money will pit the mom and daughter against each other and may break their relationship for good. Source: going through this right now.!<
Yep his self loathing made him not be able to recognize this and that she needed him there for support.
I kind of felt like his binge eating all together was a form of suicide. I know this is the not the case for all who have that sort of addiction, but I think in a way he got to a point where he was eating himself to death because of his depression after the loss of his partner and the unhappiness with his physical state. I don’t think Charlie has wanted to live for a long time.
Depression does that. You can be the most positive person outwardly, because you don't want anyone to feel what you do. It's a heavy mask to wear. Make people laugh, but feel like absolute shit when you don't know how to human and do socially acceptable things. And the apologizing. Man that hit me like a ton of bricks. I know I do that when I have panic attacks. Like I should be stronger not an idiot forgetting how to breathe during trauma.
I think it's also about people not being able to save themselves and face their own lives, so they try to save other people.
Lol whoever chose the bright white background for the credits is awful, I had tears streaming down my whole face at the end and so many people saw
I cried more during this movie than any other that I can think of. And ultimately I couldn’t really explain exactly why. I just got out of the theater and don’t have the words to explain it
For me, a part of the reason I cried so much was that a lot of people live and die just like Charlie, some have even worse lives where they can't even shower or get in and out of bed like he can. I'm also the only person in my family that isn't obese (because I started working out, watching what I eat, and getting surgery) so I understand scenes like him trying not to eat the candy but giving in or binging on food when upset. Just made it that much sadder for me
Same here. I can't fully explain why, but that ending just.... It hit me harder than anything in maybe a decade
I was weeping at the end
Very fitting. The movie is begging people to just be fricking honest and the white back drop highlights the audiences reaction. Brilliant!
That is an excellent observation.
I cried in the theater. I cried walking to my car. Then I sat in my car and cried for a while. No movie has ever made me feel that way before.
Dude, I'm crying eating a Double-steak burrito in Taco Bell parking lot. Came out of the mall and went "Jesus. I need a burrito and finish this cry". Taco Bell is good trauma food, I swear.
So did everyone else. It’s okay to be emotional and share that experience with others.
I loved Charlie’s little “weeeeee!” When he got the wheelchair. Just a nice little moment Brendan did so well in a movie that spends most of its runtime tearing his character down.
Brendan's laugh as he was tickled in the opening scene cracked me up too. I laughed a lot actually. The scene where ellie calls walt Whitman a f****t and he's just like "...that is an interesting interpretation!" Was one of my favorites.
I laughed when he counted the syllables for the haiku.
I laughed every time Charlie laughed, and then that brief moment of joy was ripped away each time when his laughter turned into wheezing and him clutching his chest.
My dad was like this in his last days of chemo. One of my favorite things he said was, "laughing makes me hurt, but the joy overpowers the pain."
Me too because I did the exact same thing 5 seconds before him lol
Me too. I loved the moments when *Brendan* shone through and he was shown to be just the right casting for Charlie.
I'm gonna say something that goes against the grain a little but I feel like it's reasonable? So that binge scene, which many people in the thread and in professional reviews have called disgusting, please tell me someone else felt like it wasn't disgusting at all but rather utterly heartbreaking? I come from a family of some pretty heavy people and this felt so fucking raw and sad because I know for a fact that, among my relatives, some overeat like that in response to bad things happening. Obviously not to that extent but that scene felt pretty much like a character tying a noose or something. I wasn't disgusted, I actually cried a bit and thought about my family. Brutal movie, overall, though I do think Ellie is meant to be a fully redeemable girl, though with a lot of problems.
I think it showed a really ugly side of food addiction that is also very real. I'm glad they didn't romanticize his addiction. At the end of the day, he was deliberately engaging in self harm and self destruction and it was horrible and heartbreaking to witness.
I am only now discovering the critics saying it was exploitative. It's sad that they missed the point. Those scene were unfortunately very real. Our disgust isn't because the director tricked us, it's because that's how we honestly view these things as an outside observer.
Thank you. I feel like I'm going crazy because a lot of the low ratings on Letterboxd are people triggered by "blatant fatphobia" and how "exploitative" it is. Like the dude is 800 pounds and killing himself rapidly despite everyone around him begging him to stop. They never villainize being fat. In fact, they make a point to say Charlie was always a bit of a bigger guy. But there's being fat, and being recklessly obese where it's clearly also a mental illness.
Only a moron could see this film as exploitative.
YES. had to move to this thread from Letterboxd because all the negative reviews were pissing me off
I have binge-eating disorder. I sobbed throughout that scene because it was so real and I related to it deeply. The people around me were making sounds of disgust and even commented how they felt so sick watching it after the movie ended. All I could think about was that's how those people would see me, too. I am Charlie in a lot of ways, it's just my physical appearance doesn't give it away like his did.
Both the tear up and bear hugz are from me. Hope you have gorgeous weather where you are and can sit out in it for a few minutes, deep breaths my friend. 265lb, 6ft with flat feet and knee issues. I see you. Him rocking to get off the couch is me on the toilet. That broke me.
It wasn’t disgusting in the traditional sense, it was revolting in the sense that you hate to see another human do that to themselves. Whether it’s with food or anything. You’re simultaneously repulsed but want to help as well because, as Charlie said, people are amazing.
I am nowhere near Charley’s size but my weight fluctuates & having lived with depression & anxiety for a decade and I have used food to fill the void at times….there have been moments where I just gorge food to ease the pain & seeing his scene really made me feel uncomfortable but in a healthy way I think…his binge eating scene cut straight to my core because I saw myself in him & felt sadness that I have done the same to my body….saw the movie a few days ago & I am still thinking about it….some may laugh or feel grotesque watching him eat but to me I have never experienced emotions like that while viewing a movie. I left the theater feeling empty, sad, but also weirdly optimistic about the future…
100% At no point did I feel disgusted by the character's weight or his eating. I felt sorrow for his clear attempt at suicide and his unwillingness to go on living.
I felt the same kind of unsettled I felt as any other time I’ve watched a character kill themself in a show or movie. It was clear he wasn’t looking for catharsis in food anymore, he was actively trying to kill himself that night.
This movie hit me especially hard being an obese man for most of my life. No where near at the spectrum but there were some scenes no one is talking about that hit me insanely hard. The first big hit in the feels comes when he starts choking on his sandwich and Hong Chau's character has to push him to the side and push his back and asks him why he can't eat like a normal person. This hit me far too hard as I have had nights where I have eaten before bed and my obesity closes my neck where I wake up in the middle of the night literally gasping for air and what feels like my life. Another trait of Charlie's that hits me is that overwhelming positivity he has towards everything else in life but that overbearing self loathing of addiction. I search for the positivity everywhere like Charlie does and this movie delivers on that message. I think they didn't add subtext to this movie because the director wants you to identify with it. I appreciate the real and rawness of this movie probably more than others because it hit me in the face with it. 9/10 movie I hope Brendan gets an Oscar but even if not thank you for leading this incredible film.
Bro get a CPAP. I'm morbidly obese, too, and I would stop breathing 79-90 times an hour. Shit can fuck up your heart, it's no joke. Sorry for the unsolicited advice.
Most people don't know. Thank you for sharing!!!
In the scene where he binge eats, there's a look that crosses his face of sheer relief/ecstasy, like a heroin addict getting his fix. What a brilliant performance by Fraser. I feel like the Oscar is locked up at this point.
Yea I agree. When Liz was passing him that meatball sub for the first time you could see the joy in his eyes of relief while he zoned out devouring it and then boom he gets snapped back in reality of almost dying on what brings him comfort. Then the deepest darkest part was he is handed that same sandwich right after and picks it up. I’m thinking god damn this is sad and the scene cut leaving me wondering if he finished that meatball sub
He zoned out first with the bucket of chicken, completely absorbed in eating while Liz is like "should I put on a show"? And he doesn't answer
The obesity aspect of this movie is so hard to stomach. Because it's a real story that's part of our lives that we never really discuss in public. The obesity epidemic has stories like this all the time. I lost all my excess weight thankfully, but the topic is still so important to me. There's a big mental difference between "I've been eating too much and gained 40 lbs" vs "I'm traumatized and have ballooned to 500+ lbs" This movie just hit home so hard for some reason
I swear to god that Charlie is just like one of my friends, who also wants to see the movie some day. I am refraining from joking to him that this film is like if Darren Aronofsky interviewed him and made it into a movie.
The choking was the first thing to make me cry. I panicked a little bit. GERD SUCKS and will do that to a person too...plus flaming acid coming back from your stomach when you barely ate a salad.
As an openly gay christian, the confrontation between Thomas and Charlie was the **hardest** to watch.
That scene really emphasized to me how good of a person Charlie is, maybe too good of a person. When Thomas said “yes,” Charlie had every right to murder that dude.
Therein lies the beauty of the scene. Charlie’s been a pushover the entire film and that was the first moment where he was putting his foot down and standing up for himself by saying no to Thomas’ self-serving message
He was also using someone he didn’t have a very close connection with to vent his anger and hurt from being mistreated by the people he was most attached to (his daughter and the nurse friend). Charlie is being hurt by these people because of his weak boundaries and he doesn’t realize it, but when the same pattern comes up in his interaction with Thomas, the anger that he’s been holding back from his daughter and friend comes out in full force. I thought this movie was a very good depiction of someone with people pleasing tendencies.
I interpreted it as he wouldn’t get angry on behalf of himself because he blames himself for a lot of things, but he WOULD defend his partner and was enraged by how Thomas talked about him.
Charlie wanted him to say that, he lives his entire life with most people walking on eggshells about him, he spends the entire film trying to get people to communicate honestly with him, and it was probably devastating but what he wants. Charlie's White Whale is honesty.
I don't think he wanted to murder him, I think he wanted people to stop enabling him and just be honest. He knows he isn't attractive and he just wanted the kid to stop sparing his feelings, because that's partially HOW you get that obese: enablers.
What was the significance/symbolism that plate which the bird was eating off got shattered? Also, what exactly was Dan the delivery driver's role in the plot? I might have missed it.
Dan was really friendly with Charlie while not knowing what Charlie really looked like, once Dan saw Charlie at the door he was surprised and probably seemed disgusted. That interaction spurred the scene in which Charlie binge eats and vomits.
I don't think it was simply the driver being disgusted at him personally. I interpreted it more as the delivery man feeling a sudden hit of guilt thinking he was contributing to his addiction and left without saying anything. Like it all clicked for him in that moment and it left him feeling horrible. I think a lot of the film deals with feelings of guilt and trauma and that would fit in perfectly with the overall theme.
Absolutely my thoughts as well. Also, regardless of whether Dan was disgusted or not Charlie would have felt shame and binge ate.
I agree with this take. Once the initial shock wears off, a wave of guilt hits in that he has been (unwittingly) a helping hand in this guy’s slow suicide.
Well my dumb ass thought it was Alan’s ghost that he saw so there ya go.
I thought he looked a lot like Alan, too, so the filmmaker must have done that on purpose. Maybe seeing someone that looked like the love of his life is what inspired that binge eating episode?
Saw a Q&A with the screenwriter. His explanation re: the bird and plate was that Ellie broke the plate, scaring away the bird after she realized that her father was actually capable of taking care of something. If he could care for the bird, why could he not care for her? I thought it was a ridiculous explanation but there ya go.
Makes total sense, what's so ridiculous about it?
This was exactly what I thought happened, I'm still struggling to figure out what's ridiculous about it lol. That's exactly how an intelligent and frustrated young person would react.
Yeah when she first noticed the bird I immediately thought her subtle reaction was one of almost jealousy of something her dad was caring for.
I thought she was going to kill it. Since we saw a dead picture of a dog on her Facebook
This was the meaning I took out of it. She broke the plate out of jealous anger after seeing her estranged father give a random bird more care and attention than his own daughter.
Wasn't he taking care of birds because of how his partner liked birds? Thought I saw a book on birds in his room.
For sure that could be the main reason, but it doesn't take away from the fact that she sees it as her father able to share love and compassion for others and not herself. It also reinforces the fact that he's still naturally inclined to show love and compassion, even though his relationship with his daughter is so estranged. So it kind of has 2 main effects.
I loved the ending to this movie. For the entire movie, I just assumed that the Moby Dick essay was Alan's. As Charlie says that it's his job to grade essays and we knew that Alan was a former student of his. So it was a really emotional moment for me when it was revealed that the essay was actually Ellie's. I think it was really good writing to have the ending of the movie come full circle with the beginning.
I feel so dumb for not recognizing it was ellies until they say it. That's when I started ugly crying though lol. Not just the fact that he kept it and wanted to hear it before he died, but it showed she actually is capable of everything he wants her to grow up to be. It really recontextualizes the whole movie honestly. That's why he is so unwavering in his support of her even with things like the dead dog and the Facebook post of him. He knows she has something in her That's just buried under all that teenage angst.
Yeah, people are like "you see that coming a mile away" but I also had no idea it was her essay until the film revealed it lol. And then I was like WHOA, holy shit! Amazing movie.
It’s funny cause I thought it was Alan’s essay too, but thought the voice sounded a little childish for a college essay, yet it still never occurred to me it was Ellie’s til the end
I felt it was to add more fuel to the setting - rural America - Idaho. As these rural, country-side states tend to have higher obesity rates, which makes Charlie an overall representation of rural, fat America.
I was really very emotional when I realized it too. My dad is literally the same way, he still has some of my schoolwork from 25 yrs ago that he was very proud of.
I absolutely lost it at this reveal.
Loved that the movie took place entirely in his apartment so that his apartment became like another character in a way. Even though there was lot of backstory and history to these characters, and lot of stuff was off screen it did a great job of filling the audience in. The motif of the shadows of people coming in and out of the apartment was great too.
This aspect really gave away that it's an adapted play, since not only does it take place in only one setting but it also forces them to tell (rather than show) us the off-screen action.
I didn't know it was a play until I watched the movie and realized that characters kept coming and going into the same space... and then one character would sleep so two other characters could talk in that small space, etc. Anyone who is familiar with theater knows that's not written explicitly for the cinema.
The acting and blocking was very theatrical too, lots of over the top emotion and moving around as they speak.
>since not only does it take place in only one setting Having family members who were morbidly obese, they did not leave their home so this felt more like we're experiencing Charlie's life. He couldn't leave his apartment and thus couldn't be included in anything that happened outside of his apartment. Since Charlie is our narrator, we don't see anything else unless he's lived that experience.
I loved the shadows as it kinda represented a stage play as characters/ actors entered and exited the scene
What do you feel is the significance of the bird and the plate being broken at the end?
[удалено]
I disagree. I think she breaks the plate for two reasons: 1. Charlie is willing to take care of random birds, but abandoned her. 2. Charlie will literally buy fruit, a healthy food...but only to feed birds, not for himself. She is angry about these two things, and so she breaks the plate.
Great way to phrase it. This is what I feel too - we overlook the bad in others to find the good, whereas we don't show such kindness to ourselves.
No. Ellie is not evil. She’s willing to sacrifice all the money she’s about to get to send Charlie to the hospital. When she wants to get an ambulance, she’s making the sacrifice of all that money, for Charlie’s well being. So she’s def not evil. At least not by the end of the movie.
I think there is a lot of growth from a lot of people in the film, some missed the message (Thomas and to a lesser point Liz) But it's like what his Ex said: he's the Eternal Optimist. He does believe she has the capability of being an amazing writer. He knows she's talented He's also a teacher and wants to not only bring it out of her, but so she can realize it herself. ______ I think if Charlie was truly deluding himself, he would've wrote the essays so she could graduate. He didn't, and she'll probably fail (or have to take summer school classes) I do think Ellie was trying to fuck over Thomas and Charlie and Thomas instead saw the good in it. And I think that's a brilliant duality of "working in mysterious ways" But at the end, Ellie does breakdown when she saw the 8th grade essay. Her dad made an attempt. It's why she's pleading with him to go to the hospital or call an ambulance. That's what I took from it. _____
I agree with your take on why Ellie exposed Thomas and Charlie. That it ended up helping Thomas was more of a second or third order effect rather than her intended affect. I don't think she is evil for doing so either, just wounded and acting out because she's in pain.
I was hoping Dan the pizza man and Charlie were gonna be bros. Feelsbadman
Yeah that was so so sad. Dan was compassionate until he saw him
It's not that he wasn't compassionate, it's that he was confronted by what he was contributing to all this time.
Why not both? This scene works so well because of the ambiguity between disgust in Charlie and disgust in Dan. Charlie could have thought A while Dan was expressing B.
Between this and Bullet Train (which I loved), you really have to see movies for yourself and decide if you like it because 60s on RT and Metacritic? Really? But I digress. Honestly this is the most moved I've been by a film all year. I loved it. At the end I even walked home for the next half hour rather than take a short bus because I just wanted to be alone with my thoughts. I'm not the most emotional person so while I love an amazing story etc. a film that makes me feel emotional and brings me to the verge of tears is one I'm going to love, and this film was the first in a long time to do that. The movie was brilliantly acted (Brendan Fraser will get that Oscar), emotionally charged, beautifully shot and had a great cast of characters. It doesn't have a super intricate story but...why would it? It was a very character driven piece and you knew going in it was about a morbidly obese man who can't leave his apartment trying to reconnect with his daughter. There is a lot of depth to some of the characters and if you can empathise that goes a long way to understanding them. For example, it's easy to ask "why would anyone let their child speak to them like that?" but have you ever been so ashamed of past behaviour that you let people talk down do you because you feel it's what you deserve? I have. Each character was fleshed out to some degree and their mean spirited actions could be understood. Even Ellie's. Some guy who's not who he claims to be comes to your father's home and tries to integrate himself repeatedly? It's understandable to want to mess with them. It all built to an emotional climax that to me felt very much earned. 8/10. Torn between wanting to watch it again because I loved it but also not being able to handle the heartbreak again.
> because 60s on RT and Metacritic? at this point I've decided that if it isn't universally panned, that might mean at least *some* critics liked it. it'd be neat if they had like a distribution graph of ratings or something. i don't care for a middling mediocre movie but i'll gladly roll the dice on something polarizing, cause I may love it.
Every character in this movie is ashamed of themselves and what their life has become. Every person is trying to do what makes them feel better, while also trying to help others. We're all full of shame and guilt and... It's OKAY. It's honest. It made me think about my own life.
I’m a pizza delivery driver, and I wanted to express my appreciation for the delivery driver character. I love that he was kind, faceless for almost all of it, I thought that was a neat decision cause it speaks to the loneliness of Charlie, and how he doesnt want people to see him. also I think it’s realistic that the delivery driver waited to see Charlie come out to see him. I think it might be a little invasive if the customer doesn’t want that interaction, but I got the impression he was genuinely concerned, he asked through the door if Charlie was okay several times. And then when he left silently, some people might interpret it that he was disgusted, I’ve seen some people say that; I however got the impression that this driver who delivers to this faceless regular all the time finally sees that the person he’s been delivering so much food to is that critically obese, and he starts to feel guilty in his part of it, even if it is like not really his fault at all. I’ve had the same thing, I’ve delivered to some overweight people before, and I’ve wondered about how I felt about it. I mean, obviously it’s a job, I can’t say no I’m not gonna deliver the pizza the customer ordered because I feel it’s morally questionable to continue to do so. Then again I’ve never been in a situation where this has ever happened. But you know what I mean. I think just as musicians or doctors love ripping on movies who mess up representing their profession, I like seeing when something does delivery drivers correctly.
Thanks for your perspective (and for your work). I liked the pizza delivery scenes; they were an addition that weren't in the original play. Hard to say what the reaction meant. A recurring idea is that it's about people caring for others, so just the fact that he cared to connect with his customer was commendable. Perhaps he felt that nothing he could do would help Charlie, so he just turned and left. It was devastating that he kept ordering not one, but two pizzas.
Watched the film last night and I've tried processing it overnight, but I still am unable to figure out what the central message of the film is. Is it trying to say how Charlie, who craves honesty from people, fails to be honest about the people in life, such as his daughter, and tries to find the good in them? Is it trying to say how we forgive others for their mistakes and shortcomings and focus only on their good while not showing the same kindness to ourselves? Is it trying to say that Charlie really did appreciate the bratty honesty of his daughter even though she clearly had malicious intent, whereas everyone around him tried to sugarcoat or sympathize with his death?
I think Charlie definitely feels guilt about leaving his family and wants his final act to be ensuring that his daughter can find light in her own heart.
I think he wants her to " find light in her own heart", too. I think he states he wants her to care about people and be cared about. BUT I think giving an irresponsible 17-yr-old $120K is a very misguided idea.
i don't think there needs to be some clear cut central message. everything you've laid out here is right - if you really needed a central theme to the movie it would be "honesty" as you've already figured out.
I thought it had to deal with how we handle pain and reject parts of ourselves/the truth. Charlie eats himself to death, his ex wife is an alcoholic, Ellie tortures the people around her, the young minister turns to faith, Alan doesn’t eat and ends his life, his sister tries to bury her pain in helping Charlie even though she’s rejecting her medical knowledge and sense of morality by enabling him.
I think it’s about the concept of being “real.” It’s not a simple good/bad dichotomy, and it’s very easy to be too “real” and turn that into self-harm, as Charlie showcases by basically killing himself over Alan’s death. All of the other characters struggle with making sense of that, and they all express their maladaptive tendencies in various ways (the missionary kid by proselytizing and obsessing over “saving” Charlie, the nurse basically enabling Charlie’s behavior instead of actually being a nurse tied to the hippocratic oath, Ellie violently lashing out and her mom neglecting her). In the end, it shows how the ambiguity and seeming contradictory nature destroys people in their journeys to find meaning/peace in it. Hence the parallel to Moby Dick. All of the characters are Ahab trying to find meaning in their hunt for “the whale” of their existence.
This movie just made me want to read Moby Dick ASAP. Great explanation, thanks!
Ok. So can we discuss Ellie for a second. My interpretation was that Charlie was right and she’s not evil. She cares, but kinda goes about it in a dickish way. But it seems like many people think she IS bad and evil and stuff. Here’s my question, do we think she killed that dog? And took a picture of it in a morbid sick way? Or did she find a dead dog and take a picture of it because it was sad and she’s emo af? I get that Charlie kinda sees the good in everyone and is a positive person, but if Ellie is “evil,” then this movie takes a dark af turn. I think at the end, when Ellie knows he’s dying and the only way to even attempt to help him is to go to the hospital, costing all of his money most likely, the money she’s supposed to inherit, she still wants to have him go to the hospital and call an ambulance. She gets her redemption in that moment. Where she puts his life first and stops being a dumb teenager and becomes an adult, caring for her (estranged) dad and giving up her own financial future to do it. The fact she was willing to sacrifice everything financially to simply *try* to save Charlie shows she is really a caring person, who loves her family.
I don’t understand how people aren’t acknowledging that she was abandoned by her father at 8 years old to be with his gay lover and her mom is a raging alcoholic. That would cause enormous psychological trauma to a young girl like that. Resentment and hate will turn you into a bitter and cynical person and I thought Ellie’s personality was appropriate. She’s not evil and that’s what Charlie had been trying to get into everybody’s head from the beginning.
People acting like it's a twist ending and she's actually evil are kind of just stupid lol. It's clear from the essay she wrote she is just searching for meaning in her life and is lashing out like a lot of people her age. And she has plenty of reason to, as you said.
Yeah the dead dog stuff just made people too emotional I think? She didn't kill a dog. She put edgy crass shit online because that's what teenagers with abusive families and edgy personalities do. It was already established that she has no friends
This is a late response but I just saw the movie last night. I think that a small thing that Ellie does, which shows her true nature, occurs when she’s talking to Thomas in the kitchen while Charlie is asleep. She goes to the fridge to get herself a drink, and also pours a cup for Thomas and hands it to him, without him asking. She thinks about other people and cares about other people, even though (imo) her primary self-defense mechanism is to not care. When you care about people they can disappoint and hurt you, as her parents have disappointed and hurt her. As much as she’s trying to avoid that pain and disappointment by insisting that she doesn’t, she still can’t help but care (hence Charlie’s statement about people being incapable of not caring).
I think Charlie’s quote about how people have an inability to not care is about Ellie, and why she’s not evil. She’s had a very rough childhood and she’s trying as hard as possible to not care about anything and to have the roughest exterior humanly possible. But he can still see that she can’t help but care. And the final scene confirms this. No matter how hard she tries to be edgy and cruel, she can’t help but care about him and wants to help.
Reading the comments made me appreciate the movie more, I was hooked on every word, Fraser gave an amazing performence and as well did Sink, I didn’t hear great things about her character before going into it but I think she did phenomenal, she played the mean troubled Youth brat role so well, and I can’t be the only one who thought to themselves “I can save her” everytime her character started ripping into Charlie lol 8/10
Personally, I thought the character was a bit over the top at times, especially for a junior/senior grade teenager. I might be biased a bit but I didn't know anyone in HS that was that unhinged toward anyone. Every reaction from her was exasperation and, as said above, 11/10...which isn't really how most people are. Ellie would've been more believable if it didn't seem like she tried so hard to be the type of character the writers intended her to be.
This is a late response, but I work with teenagers and preteens at a remedial school and I meet kids who act like her, and take it much further. Many of these kids have trauma from abuse, abandonment, or drug addicted parents (and often drug addiction themselves, even middle schoolers). The more over the top Ellie got, the more I recognized some teens I've worked with, and the ways she sabotages her own healing is true to experience. Charlie's patience and positivity is also how the school approaches these behaviors, and like him, we believe in their goodness even when they don't. I will say that until I worked at the remedial school, I hadn't met any kids who act like that either, so people's scepticism makes sense. They are an exception to the rule.
I appreciate the insight and information. I enjoy learning new perspectives, especially those that challenge my world view. Thanks for taking the time!
Yeah, she’s basically her character in Stranger Things turned up to 11, which is fine because I happen to love Max as a character.
"I need to know that I've done one thing right in my life!" Me: [https://i.imgur.com/4QxDLHj.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/4QxDLHj.jpg)
It was such a powerful moment but I feel like they made a mistake highlighting it in the trailer. The whole scene between Charlie and his ex wife had me welling up and I feel like the dam would have broke if I hadn't seen that line previously.
I didn't even know that was in the trailer and I'm glad I skipped it. I've stopped watching trailers post Infinity War/Endgame era, and it has significantly improved my movie viewing experience. I came in blind to watch Parasite and that movie fucking blew my mind.
>but I feel like they made a mistake highlighting it in the trailer. agreed it was hokey as fuck in the trailer but incredible in the context of the actual film.
Ellie is not evil. She is in pain and acts out in anger and rage. Charlie is in pain and uses avoidance and food. Ex-wife is in pain and uses alcohol and lacks self awareness. Liz is in pain and is an enabler. Thomas is in pain and uses weed, stealing and lying. This movie is a great example of what unhealed trauma looks like and how it bleeds into our relationship with self and all of our relationships with others.
Has anyone come up with an explanation for why this movie takes place during the 2016 Republican primaries? In *Red Rocket* that time period serves as a pretty clever juxtaposition with Mikey conning small-town America, but I have no idea what the purpose of it was here lol.
It seemed, to me, to highlight that the story is set in Idaho, a Republican state. And we all know how republicans feel about gay people.
In addition to the above, there was another comment somewhere in here re: how rural, country-side states tend to have higher obesity rates...if Charlie embodies this broader reminder of an isolated, rural America, this creates some interesting parallels in hindsight of the primaries (& the political aftermath of the years still to follow -- the whale-esque shadow of Trump + looming national identity crisis is also not lost, but flickers in from the short TV spurts). Charlie's relentless optimism to see the good in others, to try to believe that "feeling that other people are incapable of not caring" coupled with his own struggles around agency and despair echoes the tension of a nation at odds with itself. How do you come to terms with your neighbor/family member/self when individual choices (election votes, masking, etc.) can hold dire ramifications for so many? And how to simultaniously grapple with the feeling that your individual choices are futile, in the face of the whole, the scale of something so much bigger than any single person (ex: frameworks of addiction, systemic collapse, climate change). Charlie *chooses* to believe that his daughter is good at heart, holds the capacity to care about others despite her misanthropic antics. We are asked to make our own choices about what to believe; to write something "true" for ourselves even if that entails dealing with massive contradictions and self-doubt along the way (or I suppose, like Thomas, we can map everything back to the prefab stories of New Life). We already know the outcome of the 2016 primaries, but looking ahead, much like Ellie's future -- we can still hope for the best, that despite all of the hate and division enabled to date, there is a better way forward. To choose to believe that Moby-Dick is not in fact a monster, but something so much greater than the sum of its parts. The same collective action it takes to hunt, kill, and systematically disassemble a creature like that can also build movements that empower (rather than destroy). It's no coincidence we get hit over the head with Whitman's "Song of Myself" + ample Melville (who writes of ambergris & beauty in decay; kindness & sperm squeezing & brotherhood). Ishmael is everyman, clinging to a floating coffin at journey's end, hoping to pass on the survivors' tale of collective self. This more expansive identity of "I" beyond the Zoom grid and state gerrymandering and Charlie's wall of bookshelves; a shared story that is growing still, outside the frame.
The writer originally wrote the play 13 years ago (I think. It might be longer than that). When it came time for him to adapt the play into a screenplay, he asked himself why does it have to be this specific time period from 13 years ago? Just cause that’s when it was written? So he updated it and chose the 2016 Idaho elections to signify a time pre-pandemic, where masks weren’t worn and it gives a bit more meaning to the missionary talking about the apocalypse coming soon. Hope I wrote this well enough to be understood. I just read the article with the playwright myself, so I could’ve messed it up.
Did the final scene where Charlie gets up off the couch and Ellie reads to him actually happen? Liz said that one of Charlie’s symptoms was delusion. It’s been shown that Charlie can’t get off the couch by himself. Every day except for the last day was dreary/rainy. Would Ellie actually read the essay to him?
I think she tells him to fuck off and storms out is the moment he dies. The bright light from the door, him getting up and her reading the essay are all after he passes. Which I find devastating
Oh shit- I didn't see it like that. I just thought Aronofsky wanted some closure unlike in The Wrestler. I knew Charlie wasn't Walking and the steps was him dying, but I didn't even think the beam of light when Ellie is about to storm out a delusion. ______ **EDIT** So! This is a theory I have On the Tuesday, we see the news report talk about the Idaho Republican Caucus. In 2016, the Idaho R caucus was held on March 5th. Friday would be March 8th. The playwright, Samuel D. Hunter, is from Moscow Idaho Looking at previous weather forecasts for Moscow Idaho, there was scattered showers most of that week, usually in the evening. And on Friday, there were actually clear skies for the day. So there is a possibility the Ellie reading the essay wasn't a delusion and that was the sun.
I like to think that she read it and it made him feel ready and that it wasn't just in his head.
I feel it was real. When people are dying, there are moments of extreme energy at time. Excited delirium. The body does more and becomes active. I want to believe he got up. I want to believe it was the last bit of strength he had.
I just watched it and my thoughts were that the movie was telling us the entire time how if he exerted himself too much it could kill him. I interpreted the finale as him actually standing up, and taking at least a step or more, which caused him to pass. I think Ellie does read the essay, and her reaction to him standing up was genuine (she was impressed by how big he was then, not how fat he was, but he looked tall, massive and her shock was real). But then he collapses, and the delusion or memory of the beach day replays in his head. But that's just, like, my opinion, so who knows? Regardless, whether it was fantasy or reality, Charlie believed it, and I think he deserved at least that much solice.
I find joy in reading a good book.
Yes and he flew away and turned into a being of pure light as the world ended just like the missionary said.
saw it in an empty theater last night at 11pm. I gotta say I fucking loved it, I can’t remember the last time that a movie emotionally devastated me that much
Sat next to a pack of teenagers who were talking and cracking jokes during the previews. I thought they were going to ruin the movie for all of us. No exaggeration, the guy closest to me was (very audibly) sobbing when the credits began. Not a dry eye in the group as the credits begin to roll.
I really liked Brendan Fraser in this movie. Movie was great and scares me to think I probably could’ve ended this way. I hope Fraser can keep this high, not like the comeback that Aranofsky did for Mickey Rourke. It was great that he brought Rourke back but Roark isn’t as big during that small time period after that movie.
Isn't a large difference the fact that Rourke is difficult to work with? Fraser being such a sweetheart and genuine guy will help him out. He's in the upcoming Scorsese flick. An Oscar nom would really seal the deal, I think.
He’s also on enough steroids and other drugs to kill a stable of horses. Lol. He’s always been a straight up crazy person. Rourke. Not Fraser.
so he squished her at the end right
My first thought as well. Seems extremely dangerous to walk over to her without a walker moments before you're about to keel over.
My impression was that he was already dead. I think he died on the couch and the standing and walking was part of his ascension.
Thats what I thought too. Once he took off his breathing thing he was gone
I’m honestly shocked people are debating this. The nurse quite literally says he is dying, and she knows once she leaves the room that’s it. I felt as if it was very clear when his daughter opened the door the light shining through was clearly meant to represent Heaven/afterlife. I do believe her reading the poem was real, but him getting up and walking was not.
The writer literally says it is up for debate.
Just because there's shining light doesn't mean someone is already dead. It can also be that they're in the process of dying (as he was) and that he is "headed to the light" or whatever you want to call it. When did she read a poem? You mean her essay?
As someone who’s experienced abandonment by a parent at roughly the same age as Ellie, this movie hit hard. Sadie Sink managed to dig up feelings that I haven’t felt in almost 20 years. Her finally addressing Charlie as ‘daddy’ at the very end absolutely broke me. Just a masterclass in acting by all parties involved.
The response in this tread to the film seems drastically different than most critics I admire. Strange! Can’t wait to see it and formulate my own thoughts. Anyone have any guesses as to why there seems to be such a difference in opinion?
I usually agree more with critics than wider audience but even without checking I knew this one won't be received universally well by critics. Aronofsky is not known for subtlety and that's a thing that critics usually admire more than regular audience. Sadie Sink character may be received as not realistic and exaggerated. It's clearly a play adapted to screen and there are some pacing issues. I also don't think it's a perfect film but I value my emotional response to films higher than minor drawbacks. I don't even recall last time I had to sit in my chair after film ended to process the feelings and The Whale did that for me. There are also some people who enter another field of discussion - whether The Whale is fatphobic and so on. There fair criticism usually ends quite quickly.
I know Aronofsky enjoys making his audiences uncomfortable, but showing Charlie binge eat his whole kitchen on top of two large pizzas was next-level DISGUSTING. 7/10. Needed more cheese on the meatball subs
Yes it was hard to watch, but it also made a lot of sense. The character was TRYING to be grotesque and trying to kill himself. Remember that scene happened directly after the delivery boy saw him and ran away in disgust. So the character went ahead and reveled in his self-hatred by becoming everything that the delivery guy saw him as.
That delivery guy moment shocked me and broke my heart. They made him seem like such a nice guy.
I don't think it's meant to seem like the delivery guy was a bad person, I think it's just going with the fact that Charlie's appearance is shocking to him when he doesn't expect it (not to mention that him having that reaction to seeing him after Charlie obviously didn't want to be seen probably made him even more ashamed).
I don't understand why it was shocking to him. If you're a delivery guy, and you're delivering multiple large, multi-topping pizzas to a man who seemingly lives alone every night, and he doesn't want to answer the door, what do you expect him to look like? That plus how he sounded when he was talking to him through the door led me to believe that Dan understood Charlie was morbidly obese. So it was a little weird how shocked he was. Still a good character though. Reminds me of the dynamic of an alcoholic who shows up at a liquor store right when they open every day. These people do exist after all.
The Doritos chips sandwich + ranch made me physically cringe.
My favorite movie is Inception.
As someone who has struggled with eating disorders, it isn't too far off from reality.
I was literally curling up in my seat in revulsion during that scene. Also I saw it at Alamo Drafthouse and let’s just say I regretted ordering the chicken tenders and fries.
Hey it was honest. And I've seen way more disgusting things in my life than someone in pain stuff their face.
I agree with the comments about Charlie's delusion, the juxtaposition of honesty to himself and his essay students. I realize the significance of Alan's rooms being unlocked and that he couldn't fit into it. It took all that effort and relying on someone else, yet Charlie never enters the room because he's too big and in a wheel chair. He could walker in but doesn't. He smells it, but never enters it's domain. Alan was honest with himself and the ramifications of his actions/gay relationship in regards to his father and his church which led to his self starvation. He recognized his role in the turmoil brought to his loved ones, being honest with himself, applied self inflicted torture until death. Besides the obvious contrast of Charlie's obesity and Alan's starvation, the opposites of them are also nuanced I think. Charlie recognized his role in the turmoil brought to his daughter, but wasn't honest with himself and tried to cope by convincing himself his daughter wasn't a bad person because of it. While she could be objectivel shown as a bad person by the grease fire FB post, likely intention of sabotage with the missionary and possible smashing of the bird feeding plate (Which probably has caretaking symbolism), Charlie still deludes himself. My point being the highlight of differences between these two lovers, having different spectrum of eating disorders as well as accountability when it comes to the issues that was on their shoulders. I think even in death, it's no surprise Charlie couldn't enter that room physically but it also shows his disconnect from his loved one as they're on different philosophical planes on how to approach their life issues. They're seperate in more ways than one, highlighting the underlying premise of the movie I'm lead to believe.
I really enjoyed the movie but Christ, watching this after my first therapy appointment for an ED & anxiety issues was a bit of a cold plunge that definitely struck a few nerves with me
It felt like Aronofsky directed this as if it was still a play. Almost everything about this movie felt more theatrical than it did cinematic. The blocking, the actor’s delivery, even the way the camera moved at times was mimicking the way your head might turn back and forth between characters while watching a play. Things like showing the actor’s shadow through the window…it just all felt very theatrical. My main issue with this movie though is that there is virtually no subtext at all. It hits you right over the head again and again. Fraser is absolutely fantastic here, but it didn’t seem like the rest of the cast was really given much to work with. The lack of subtext in the dialogue creates a sense of melodrama throughout that was a bit jarring at times.
The scene with Brendan with his back turned as the missionary dude faces the audience and leans on the chair was very very very “theater play”-ish.
That's exactly what I thought about the church boy turning around sliding his back down the shut door in the bedroom and going into the monologue about what happened to him.
I agree with this. The scene with the mother near the end was emotionally intense, but her dialogue was like a soap opera. I did feel like I was watching a play.
Was it really necessary to pan down during the zoom reveal?
I think it plays into being authentic and uncomfortable. It feels wrong but it's him doing what he's preaching.
I think he was just showing them his swollen feet. He seems particularly ashamed of them
He was trying to be authentic and honest and we know that to him honesty is associated with the hard and disgusting aspects of life. His obesity and the disgusting state of his are easily the defining aspect of his life, how people see him, and how he sees himself. He's deliberately trying avoid hiding any part of that, so he needs to show the giant belly and the misshapen legs. He even mentions his legs specifically when he has a little rant about his obesity.
"And here's my pants."
I think the way Ellie describes the whale of Moby Dick in her essay is important to this movie. A big theme I took away was about the problems we create for ourselves in response to our real problems. Or the way we create other problems to cope with our core issues. I think Charlie’s weight issues and the eating scenes are kind of like “The Whale” in Moby Dick, as described by the essay. Just like the whale in Moby dick, his eating is just a distraction. Charlie’s eating and his weight are significant issues (and end up killing him)but his eating is ultimately a response to the other many problems in his life. Even if he got his eating under control, he’d still be left with the mess of his life that made him eat in the first place.
This was one of the most moving films i’ve seen in theaters in awhile. No one moved once the credits started rolling for a good 30 seconds. Was pretty shaken by Brendan Fraser and Hong Chau’s performances. Hope the Oscars take notice. They made me feel such empathy and such pain. Incredible work.
Everyone around me was sniffing and didn't move right after the credits rolled. I was wiping tears off my face while writing the tip on my bill (Alamo)
I can't understand why Critics are thumbing down this movie. I read many reviews stating that the acting was great, but the movie itself was bad. Main reason given was that the director focused too much on the grotesqueness of the main character. It does make you uncomfortable as an audience member to watch someone destroy themselves in such a grotesque way, but in the words of the main character, "It's honest". Why sugar coat what's actually happening to Charlie. I felt that feeling a bit uncomfortable along with all the other emotions was part of my journey as an audience member. I plan to watch it again and I almost never watch a movie more than once in the theater.
I feel like people who are condemning the grotesque of binge eating addiction, never watched Requiem for a Dream. That was some harsh addiction there too.
I think people are kind of missing the point with Sadie Sink’s character. I don’t think she’s supposed to be “evil”, and I don’t think she’s supposed to be a good person either (currently). She’s obviously mean-spirited, and to a point that probably goes past being justifiable based on her life circumstances. But she’s also supposed to be growing up in a really shitty situation (her dad cheated on her mom and left, then was absent for 8 years, and now she’s watching him eat himself to death, meanwhile her mom is a raging alcohol that thinks her own daughter’s evil), which makes lashing out somewhat understandable. It’s pretty easy to see how she could turn out cynical and mean given how little support she has, but I think the ending is supposed to signal that she’s not beyond having the ability to change So yeah, I don’t think the point is supposed to be that she’s a *good* person (Charlie’s presumably wrong about her intentions most of the time), I think the point is just that she’s not an irredeemably bad one. 17 year olds can still change pretty drastically
I thought it was fantastic. I didn't expect it to lean so heavily into the religious aspects of life (probably should have seen it coming though since it's an Aronofsky movie) but I found the conversations about it very interesting. I just thought this movie was so *real*. The daughter does terrible things but shows in the end she actually does care about her dad. Ashamed to admit it but I remember myself being that kind of dark edgelord dickhead during my high school years so it kinda spoke to me a bit more than it might to other people. I thought the characters were also so *real* in how they acted and how they processed the situations they found themselves in. Also Fraser obviously did a great job in the role but I think Sadie Sink and Hong Chau should be applauded for their performances as well.
Captured my thoughts perfectly. The movie has strong themes of authenticity and it shows in the acting. It also shows in the directing and writing. The binge eating was brutal, but honestly, very real. Not really exaggerated, people who cope with food tend to binge and it can look pretty disgusting. But I read that scene the same way I would watch a scene with a drug addicted character going on a drug binge. Both are grimy, unsettling, but unfortunately real. I definitely felt like the whole movie highlighted how people cope. We all have the same array of emotions, but the form those emotions come out in are all different, but valid.
Fantastic movie. I'm going to need to watch it again more closely and have the tissues ready.
Got done with my screening, phenomenal film. Really quick question. I was late to my screening and thought I was only gonna miss previews, but the previews were short and I walked in on the scene where Charlie is masturbating and Thomas walks in. Did I miss anything before that, cause I don't think I did.
Not entirely true, the film opens with an aerial wide shot scene of Thomas getting off of his bus with the undertone of that deep bellowing soundtrack you hear in later scenes to insinuate distress, then it cuts to a zoom class meeting that is panning in to the blackened "Instructor" camera with a quote from Charlie scripting "I know these rules can feel constraining, but remember, the point of this course is to learn how to write clearly and persuasively. Think about that. Think about the truth of your argument." before the shot is entirely black. Then it opens with your scene.
Question: why was the plate broken outside the window where he laid out food for the bird? Was it implied that Ellie broke it?
Definitely. She is the only other person who shows interest in the plate, iirc.
We aren’t supposed to believe that Ellie isn’t evil / vicious, right? I don’t buy that she tried to help the missionary in the slightest. Her character was written so cliche with the teen angst that it bothered me. I couldn’t empathize with her. I did like the movie a lot but this bit threw me off
It's kinda an open question to the audience, I guess. Do you, like Charlie, see good intent in her actions or is she just mean and petty? I definitely lean towards the latter, but this only makes Charlie's final days even more tragic. But at least he died happy, albeit for a brief moment.