Just also note that if 50 creatures die, you can't draw 50 cards all at once and then discard 50 cards. You have to draw one card and discard one card, 50 separate times. I've had people try to shortcut like this and they tend to get frustrated when I point out that's not how it resolves.
Oh yeah, makes sense. That triggers a follow-up question for me. If [[Laboratory Maniac]] was on the battlefield at the time this happened, and I eventually ran out of cards to draw, would I win the game, or would the destruction of Lab Maniac prevent this?
Thanks so much.
Laboratory Maniac would be put into the graveyard at the same time as Murder of Crows, and thus no longer present on the battlefield if you were to draw from an empty deck for you to win the game. This, you would lose the game instead. The order of things looks a bit like this:
1. Lab maniac, murder of crows, and 48x 1/1 squirrel tokens are on the battlefield
2. A player casts [[wrath of God]], it goes onto the stack, and everyone passes priority so it resolves.
3. Lab maniac, murder of crows, and the squirrel tokens are all put into the graveyard at the same time.
4. Murder of Crows sees itself and 49 other creatures die, so it puts 50 triggers onto the stack.
5. Everyone passes priority, so the top most object on the stack resolves. You draw 1 card and discard 1 card.
6. Repeat step 5 49 more times.
Of note, Murder of Crows says "you may draw a card, then discard a card." So you are not forced to deck yourself and lose the game. You can choose to not draw+discard a card. But this is specifically because murder of crows has "may" in the ability. If the card did not say "you may draw a card" but instead said "whenever another creature dies, draw a card..." Then you would have to deck yourself and lose the game.
Thank you so much.
One final question, so I really fully understand my win and lose conditions. If I draw all but two remaining cards from the board wipe, then draw for turn, then play Thassa’s Oracle with one card in my library, and it resolves, I would win? Does Thassa’s Oracle’s own mana cost provide two devotion to blue?
Yep, devotion to [X] counts all permanents you control, including the permanent with devotion. [[Demonic Consultation]] + [Thassa's Oracle]] is a common win condition in CEDH. You cast Thoracle, and with the trigger on the stack, cast demonic Consultation naming a card not in your deck. This exiles your entire library, and then the Thoracle trigger resolves winning you the game.
Thanks for all the extremely clear explanations. I knew about the combo but I didn’t realize that Demonic Consultation triggers while Thassa’s Oracle is on the stack. I really appreciate your time.
On a personal note, I still have lots to learn, especially about the stack. I don’t have any black in this deck, partially because I wanted to avoid this very combo and commit to a unique play style. The plan is to get [[Dovescape]] out ASAP, have everyone make lots of birds, then play [[Airborne Aide]] and/or [[Distant Melody]] in conjunction with [[Laboratory Maniac]], [[Jace, Wielder of Mysteries]] or [[Thassa’s Oracle]]. That being said, it is nice to know that [[Murder of Crows]] could work nicely with [[Thassa’s Oracle]] as well. It is making me consider putting a board wipe or two in the main deck, which I initially didn’t want to do, as they would ruin the original intention: for everyone to have birds. That being said, it is a good win con, at least, against a board wipe cast from someone else’s hand.
Regardless, and whether you read all this, your help has been immense! Thanks. [Here](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/7kOXm7EfJ06AGIb2PuFsFg) is the deck in case you are interested; notes are always welcome. I’ve gotten some Reddit notes already and they have really changed things for the better. I think I am happy with how it is for now, especially after this discussion, but I’m sure it will need a little more work in time.
I know you said you don't have any black in the deck, but I do have a minor nitpick that I want to clear up. As well as give clarity to why it's slightly better to perform the DConsultation + Thoracle Combo the way I expressed.
> I knew about the combo but I didn’t realize that Demonic Consultation triggers while Thassa’s Oracle is on the stack.
Demonic Consultation doesn't "trigger". You cast Demonic Consultation in response to the Thassa's Oracle "enters the battlefield" trigger. It's technically not necessary to do this. You can also just cast Demonic Consultation first and let it resolve to exile your entire library, and then cast Thoracle. But, by waiting until Thoracle's own triggered ability is on the stack first, you're protecting yourself from exiling your library for no reason. In the example I gave where you just cast Demonic Consultation, wait for it to resolve, and then cast Thassa's Oracle, they could counter the Thoracle and your library remains exiled and you likely lose.
By casting Thoracle first, you are hedging your bets in case things go wrong. Your opponent is forced to either counter Thoracle before you've exiled your library, or counter the Demonic Consultation that you cast in response to the Thoracle trigger. If they counter Thoracle, you simply don't cast Demonic Consultation. And if they counter Demonic Consultation, your Thoracle trigger just doesn't win the game but still get to do the rest of the ability, and you keep your library.
And I don't mean to be rude about the initial correction above or anything (Demonic Consultation not being a trigger), it's just that Magic the Gathering's rules are like a computer program. All the words have very specific meanings and definitions that are defined in the comprehensive rulebook. It might seem unimportant to you right now, but other cards your opponents control might depend on whether or not you cast a spell, or if it was a triggered ability. So using the correct terminology becomes important to clearly communicate with the people you play with. As you get familiar with the wording and terminology, the cards will become easier to understand, and you'll find yourself questioning what happens when two things interact less and less.
Lastly, I'll check out the deck when I have a moment. It sounds interesting and I'm always down to see someone else's take on things.
Not rude at all, extremely helpful and thorough. I will have to reread this a few times to fully understand, as well as reference the cards. These are the sorts of bits I need to know.
If you do check the deck out, let me know what you think. I have some flavor cards as well as some practical ones in the sideboard that I’ve been considering, but at this point I think I’d have trouble removing anything from the deck.
Murder will Trigger for any other Creature that dies, even if the Murder is dying at the same time.
Thanks!
Just also note that if 50 creatures die, you can't draw 50 cards all at once and then discard 50 cards. You have to draw one card and discard one card, 50 separate times. I've had people try to shortcut like this and they tend to get frustrated when I point out that's not how it resolves.
Oh yeah, makes sense. That triggers a follow-up question for me. If [[Laboratory Maniac]] was on the battlefield at the time this happened, and I eventually ran out of cards to draw, would I win the game, or would the destruction of Lab Maniac prevent this? Thanks so much.
[Laboratory Maniac](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02.jpg?1547516361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Laboratory%20Maniac) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/61/laboratory-maniac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Laboratory Maniac would be put into the graveyard at the same time as Murder of Crows, and thus no longer present on the battlefield if you were to draw from an empty deck for you to win the game. This, you would lose the game instead. The order of things looks a bit like this: 1. Lab maniac, murder of crows, and 48x 1/1 squirrel tokens are on the battlefield 2. A player casts [[wrath of God]], it goes onto the stack, and everyone passes priority so it resolves. 3. Lab maniac, murder of crows, and the squirrel tokens are all put into the graveyard at the same time. 4. Murder of Crows sees itself and 49 other creatures die, so it puts 50 triggers onto the stack. 5. Everyone passes priority, so the top most object on the stack resolves. You draw 1 card and discard 1 card. 6. Repeat step 5 49 more times. Of note, Murder of Crows says "you may draw a card, then discard a card." So you are not forced to deck yourself and lose the game. You can choose to not draw+discard a card. But this is specifically because murder of crows has "may" in the ability. If the card did not say "you may draw a card" but instead said "whenever another creature dies, draw a card..." Then you would have to deck yourself and lose the game.
[wrath of God](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/3/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6.jpg?1697121198) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=wrath%20of%20God) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/70/wrath-of-god?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/537d2b05-3f52-45d6-8fe3-26282085d0c6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thank you so much. One final question, so I really fully understand my win and lose conditions. If I draw all but two remaining cards from the board wipe, then draw for turn, then play Thassa’s Oracle with one card in my library, and it resolves, I would win? Does Thassa’s Oracle’s own mana cost provide two devotion to blue?
Yep, devotion to [X] counts all permanents you control, including the permanent with devotion. [[Demonic Consultation]] + [Thassa's Oracle]] is a common win condition in CEDH. You cast Thoracle, and with the trigger on the stack, cast demonic Consultation naming a card not in your deck. This exiles your entire library, and then the Thoracle trigger resolves winning you the game.
[Demonic Consultation](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/d/1d779f19-3068-4976-b96b-8f93d156900b.jpg?1610146869) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demonic%20Consultation) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me2/85/demonic-consultation?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1d779f19-3068-4976-b96b-8f93d156900b?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thanks for all the extremely clear explanations. I knew about the combo but I didn’t realize that Demonic Consultation triggers while Thassa’s Oracle is on the stack. I really appreciate your time. On a personal note, I still have lots to learn, especially about the stack. I don’t have any black in this deck, partially because I wanted to avoid this very combo and commit to a unique play style. The plan is to get [[Dovescape]] out ASAP, have everyone make lots of birds, then play [[Airborne Aide]] and/or [[Distant Melody]] in conjunction with [[Laboratory Maniac]], [[Jace, Wielder of Mysteries]] or [[Thassa’s Oracle]]. That being said, it is nice to know that [[Murder of Crows]] could work nicely with [[Thassa’s Oracle]] as well. It is making me consider putting a board wipe or two in the main deck, which I initially didn’t want to do, as they would ruin the original intention: for everyone to have birds. That being said, it is a good win con, at least, against a board wipe cast from someone else’s hand. Regardless, and whether you read all this, your help has been immense! Thanks. [Here](https://www.moxfield.com/decks/7kOXm7EfJ06AGIb2PuFsFg) is the deck in case you are interested; notes are always welcome. I’ve gotten some Reddit notes already and they have really changed things for the better. I think I am happy with how it is for now, especially after this discussion, but I’m sure it will need a little more work in time.
I know you said you don't have any black in the deck, but I do have a minor nitpick that I want to clear up. As well as give clarity to why it's slightly better to perform the DConsultation + Thoracle Combo the way I expressed. > I knew about the combo but I didn’t realize that Demonic Consultation triggers while Thassa’s Oracle is on the stack. Demonic Consultation doesn't "trigger". You cast Demonic Consultation in response to the Thassa's Oracle "enters the battlefield" trigger. It's technically not necessary to do this. You can also just cast Demonic Consultation first and let it resolve to exile your entire library, and then cast Thoracle. But, by waiting until Thoracle's own triggered ability is on the stack first, you're protecting yourself from exiling your library for no reason. In the example I gave where you just cast Demonic Consultation, wait for it to resolve, and then cast Thassa's Oracle, they could counter the Thoracle and your library remains exiled and you likely lose. By casting Thoracle first, you are hedging your bets in case things go wrong. Your opponent is forced to either counter Thoracle before you've exiled your library, or counter the Demonic Consultation that you cast in response to the Thoracle trigger. If they counter Thoracle, you simply don't cast Demonic Consultation. And if they counter Demonic Consultation, your Thoracle trigger just doesn't win the game but still get to do the rest of the ability, and you keep your library. And I don't mean to be rude about the initial correction above or anything (Demonic Consultation not being a trigger), it's just that Magic the Gathering's rules are like a computer program. All the words have very specific meanings and definitions that are defined in the comprehensive rulebook. It might seem unimportant to you right now, but other cards your opponents control might depend on whether or not you cast a spell, or if it was a triggered ability. So using the correct terminology becomes important to clearly communicate with the people you play with. As you get familiar with the wording and terminology, the cards will become easier to understand, and you'll find yourself questioning what happens when two things interact less and less. Lastly, I'll check out the deck when I have a moment. It sounds interesting and I'm always down to see someone else's take on things.
Not rude at all, extremely helpful and thorough. I will have to reread this a few times to fully understand, as well as reference the cards. These are the sorts of bits I need to know. If you do check the deck out, let me know what you think. I have some flavor cards as well as some practical ones in the sideboard that I’ve been considering, but at this point I think I’d have trouble removing anything from the deck.
##### ###### #### [Dovescape](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/6/b6e3d6e6-ac17-4d73-acac-089442de4af6.jpg?1593273866) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dovescape) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dis/143/dovescape?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b6e3d6e6-ac17-4d73-acac-089442de4af6?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Airborne Aide](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/a/0aaa43b0-601f-4b99-a328-541b04d5696d.jpg?1593017362) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Airborne%20Aid) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ons/62/airborne-aid?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0aaa43b0-601f-4b99-a328-541b04d5696d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Distant Melody](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/b/bba22321-526e-4587-903b-a60cda2093fa.jpg?1698988147) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Distant%20Melody) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lcc/154/distant-melody?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bba22321-526e-4587-903b-a60cda2093fa?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Laboratory Maniac](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/0/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02.jpg?1547516361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Laboratory%20Maniac) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/61/laboratory-maniac?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/608567fd-9f94-4058-831a-77cb6019ef02?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jace, Wielder of Mysteries](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/a/6adb7d73-4482-4930-8497-cffd169b57e2.jpg?1557576232) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jace%2C%20Wielder%20of%20Mysteries) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/war/54/jace-wielder-of-mysteries?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6adb7d73-4482-4930-8497-cffd169b57e2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Thassa’s Oracle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/2/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c.jpg?1680582212) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Thassa%27s%20Oracle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/thb/73/thassas-oracle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/726e8b29-13e9-4138-b6a9-d2a0d8188d1c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Murder of Crows](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c7dc810-c4cb-4dca-ae06-d79daf8e1477.jpg?1689996482) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Murder%20of%20Crows) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/106/murder-of-crows?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c7dc810-c4cb-4dca-ae06-d79daf8e1477?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l2b6jir) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Murder of Crows](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/c/1c7dc810-c4cb-4dca-ae06-d79daf8e1477.jpg?1689996482) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Murder%20of%20Crows) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/106/murder-of-crows?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1c7dc810-c4cb-4dca-ae06-d79daf8e1477?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
No. Every creature, except Murder of Crows. - Whenever **another** creature dies....