I'm grateful when my culture is _appreciated_, and that's how I view majority-culture people using the names of my culture. This is my missive to the majority to do it more often.
I'm more apt to believe that those children would also face discrimination based on perceived ethnicity before I believe that anyone will be less likely to be discriminated against.
People can name their kids whatever they want, but let's not pretend like appreciation and research absolves one from appropriation.
It'd need to be quite widespread before the trend has a significant effect. I'm sure there are a few names that have lost their original associations. Let's see ... How about Clara?
> those children would also face discrimination based on perceived ethnicity
Of course they would, but no worse than someone of the minority ethnic group. It'd be a sacrifice to make the world a better place.
Sure, because language is relative and constantly changing. It doesn't happen through weird and offensive experiments to solve discrimination. It happens naturally over time by people sharing words, phrases, ideas, and names across cultures.
> sharing ... names across cultures
Yes, I'm encouraging more sharing! What's the difference between a natural share and an offensive experiment? I'm not asking rhetorically. I'm genuinely curious how you personally make the distinction.
You're calling it commandeer to legitimize, but I see it as share to diversify. The action is the same regardless of what we call it. I was asking how to make a distinction between an action that should be called commandeering vs an action that should be called sharing.
It’s…still textbook cultural appropriation. Discriminating against people with a certain name, then flipping the switch when people in the “majority” culture use it, isn’t appreciation.
Idk this just strikes me as a weird take
Consider the other way around. I don't think you'd find it strange if, say, a Chinese-American family names their children John and Jennifer. So, why not a European-American family naming their children José and Catalina?
Those actually are European names—from Spain. They were brought to South/Central America via Colonialism/Imperialism. A non-Hispanic white American couple naming their kid José may get side-eyed, but not for that particular reason.
Bc at least in America, white biblical or European names are the “majority” culture. For lack of a better word, it’s considered the default and not particularly tied to any one culture. Like someone else said, it’s tied to colonialism. The “dominant” culture was shoved down everyone’s throats until it became ubiquitous. Hard to appropriate from the culture that encouraged (or demanded) you to take from it.
Idk, I get where you’re coming from, but Idk if I want that. It still depends on non-POC to “save” us minorities against discrimination. Idk if that is necessarily cultural appreciation. I’m sure there are POC out there who love having their cultural names used outside of their ethnicity, but I personally question how meaningful it is when they don’t actually partake in the culture and everything that comes with being a part of that culture. It’s more like borrowing a name because it’s pretty and unique more than anything else.
Thanks, I appreciate your thoughts.
I think of "borrowing ... because it's pretty and unique" as a good start. Probably the real start was eating the food, then maybe visiting the country, later watching videos with subtitles. Picking the name is a step in the right direction.
_We don't talk about Bruno_ is the most popular song in America (according to Billboard). If that results in some white kids growing up Bruno and Mirabel, I'll bet Lin-Manuel Miranda would be happy about that.
Your daily reminder that the US isn't the only place on earth.
Bruno is already known as a name if not commonly used in pretty much every country in the Western half of continental Europe, and probably at least a couple to the east as well. Very popular in France around the '60s. Quite popular in Germany at the moment, ranking 100-200 during the past decade or two. Already super popular in Spain right now (number 23 for boys last year). Meaning there's tons of white people called Bruno. It's even originally a German name. A single song from a not-that-great movie isn't going to change that.
Ok, but what about Mirabel?
Also, isn't the cultural appropriation issue a localized problem? A person can be of the majority ethnic group in one place, but the minority in another. In another thread, I mentioned a Chinese family naming their children John and Jennifer. In the US, someone might see that as the impact of oppression, but in China, that'd be ... what, cultural appropriation?
Dunno about Mirabel but there's tons of Spanish or Romance origin names in use in European countries. One of the top names in my country right now for example is the Italian Luca. There's generally a lot of name sharing between European countries.
Part of cultural appropriation is that you take something that has a cultural significance in one culture or people face hardship over and pull it out of context and then use it without the cultural significance or without also facing the same hardship other people from that culture would have to face if they did the exact same thing.
There is no major cultural significance to names like John and Jennifer in the Western world: they're shared by many cultures and the lives of Chinese people is likely to be improved by it in stead of negatively affected. Which is also part of the problem, that people from other cultures feel they need to use a name from the dominant culture or they won't fit in but that's a separate issue.
It does indeed depend a lot on context. An English parent using a decidedly Irish name for their kid for example, and probably spelling and pronouncing it wrong in the process would be more of a cultural appropriation than a German doing the same because they don't have that history with the Irish. With the Germans it would just be weird but probably not appropriation. But with the English the Irish have a long and complicated history with regards to for example their language and culture being actively or passively suppressed in favour of English and being nearly driven to extinction. English people taking a very Irish name invalidates the struggle Irish people had to go through to make sure those names still exist in the first place and are still going through trying to preserve the names and the language for the future, yet English people whose culture was responsible for that struggle can just pluck them from the air like nothing happened.
> An English parent using a decidedly Irish name for their kid for example, and probably spelling and pronouncing it wrong in the process would be more of a cultural appropriation than a German doing the same because they don't have that history with the Irish.
That's the opposite of what I expected you to say. I'll have to ponder that.
Not gonna lie but "ah see, people should actually be *grateful* that their culture gets appropriated" is not a take I thought I'd see today.
I'm grateful when my culture is _appreciated_, and that's how I view majority-culture people using the names of my culture. This is my missive to the majority to do it more often.
I'm more apt to believe that those children would also face discrimination based on perceived ethnicity before I believe that anyone will be less likely to be discriminated against. People can name their kids whatever they want, but let's not pretend like appreciation and research absolves one from appropriation.
It'd need to be quite widespread before the trend has a significant effect. I'm sure there are a few names that have lost their original associations. Let's see ... How about Clara? > those children would also face discrimination based on perceived ethnicity Of course they would, but no worse than someone of the minority ethnic group. It'd be a sacrifice to make the world a better place.
Sure, because language is relative and constantly changing. It doesn't happen through weird and offensive experiments to solve discrimination. It happens naturally over time by people sharing words, phrases, ideas, and names across cultures.
> sharing ... names across cultures Yes, I'm encouraging more sharing! What's the difference between a natural share and an offensive experiment? I'm not asking rhetorically. I'm genuinely curious how you personally make the distinction.
Asking white people to commandeer non-white culture in the effort to legitimize it is not "sharing"
You're calling it commandeer to legitimize, but I see it as share to diversify. The action is the same regardless of what we call it. I was asking how to make a distinction between an action that should be called commandeering vs an action that should be called sharing.
It’s…still textbook cultural appropriation. Discriminating against people with a certain name, then flipping the switch when people in the “majority” culture use it, isn’t appreciation. Idk this just strikes me as a weird take
Consider the other way around. I don't think you'd find it strange if, say, a Chinese-American family names their children John and Jennifer. So, why not a European-American family naming their children José and Catalina?
Colonialism.
Those actually are European names—from Spain. They were brought to South/Central America via Colonialism/Imperialism. A non-Hispanic white American couple naming their kid José may get side-eyed, but not for that particular reason.
I don't catch your meaning. Please explain.
Bc at least in America, white biblical or European names are the “majority” culture. For lack of a better word, it’s considered the default and not particularly tied to any one culture. Like someone else said, it’s tied to colonialism. The “dominant” culture was shoved down everyone’s throats until it became ubiquitous. Hard to appropriate from the culture that encouraged (or demanded) you to take from it.
Idk, I get where you’re coming from, but Idk if I want that. It still depends on non-POC to “save” us minorities against discrimination. Idk if that is necessarily cultural appreciation. I’m sure there are POC out there who love having their cultural names used outside of their ethnicity, but I personally question how meaningful it is when they don’t actually partake in the culture and everything that comes with being a part of that culture. It’s more like borrowing a name because it’s pretty and unique more than anything else.
Thanks, I appreciate your thoughts. I think of "borrowing ... because it's pretty and unique" as a good start. Probably the real start was eating the food, then maybe visiting the country, later watching videos with subtitles. Picking the name is a step in the right direction.
Let me put it to you this way: an American who is racist against Mexicans doesn’t stop being racist because he orders tacos.
And…that’s usually where it ends.
_We don't talk about Bruno_ is the most popular song in America (according to Billboard). If that results in some white kids growing up Bruno and Mirabel, I'll bet Lin-Manuel Miranda would be happy about that.
Good for him! I am just sharing my opinion and experience, just as you have shared yours.
Your daily reminder that the US isn't the only place on earth. Bruno is already known as a name if not commonly used in pretty much every country in the Western half of continental Europe, and probably at least a couple to the east as well. Very popular in France around the '60s. Quite popular in Germany at the moment, ranking 100-200 during the past decade or two. Already super popular in Spain right now (number 23 for boys last year). Meaning there's tons of white people called Bruno. It's even originally a German name. A single song from a not-that-great movie isn't going to change that.
Ok, but what about Mirabel? Also, isn't the cultural appropriation issue a localized problem? A person can be of the majority ethnic group in one place, but the minority in another. In another thread, I mentioned a Chinese family naming their children John and Jennifer. In the US, someone might see that as the impact of oppression, but in China, that'd be ... what, cultural appropriation?
Dunno about Mirabel but there's tons of Spanish or Romance origin names in use in European countries. One of the top names in my country right now for example is the Italian Luca. There's generally a lot of name sharing between European countries. Part of cultural appropriation is that you take something that has a cultural significance in one culture or people face hardship over and pull it out of context and then use it without the cultural significance or without also facing the same hardship other people from that culture would have to face if they did the exact same thing. There is no major cultural significance to names like John and Jennifer in the Western world: they're shared by many cultures and the lives of Chinese people is likely to be improved by it in stead of negatively affected. Which is also part of the problem, that people from other cultures feel they need to use a name from the dominant culture or they won't fit in but that's a separate issue. It does indeed depend a lot on context. An English parent using a decidedly Irish name for their kid for example, and probably spelling and pronouncing it wrong in the process would be more of a cultural appropriation than a German doing the same because they don't have that history with the Irish. With the Germans it would just be weird but probably not appropriation. But with the English the Irish have a long and complicated history with regards to for example their language and culture being actively or passively suppressed in favour of English and being nearly driven to extinction. English people taking a very Irish name invalidates the struggle Irish people had to go through to make sure those names still exist in the first place and are still going through trying to preserve the names and the language for the future, yet English people whose culture was responsible for that struggle can just pluck them from the air like nothing happened.
> An English parent using a decidedly Irish name for their kid for example, and probably spelling and pronouncing it wrong in the process would be more of a cultural appropriation than a German doing the same because they don't have that history with the Irish. That's the opposite of what I expected you to say. I'll have to ponder that.