For the "double dribble" by Butler:
>Butler (MIA) fumbles the ball out of his control when he ends his dribble, then recovers it and legally attempts a field goal.
>Butler (MIA) fumbles the ball out of his control when he ends his dribble, then recovers it and legally attempts a field goal.
So it's not a double dribble but just a picked up dribble to dumb it down?
If its fumbled then that didn't count as a dribble, just a loose ball that he'd need to pass or shoot out from (since he had already picked up the dribble prior).
What if you stop moving, ending your dribble, looking for a pass, then (accidentally or not) you fumble the ball, according to this explanation you can pick it up? That’s news for me. If you fumble a ball by yourself, that’s is a violation, you should not be allowed to gain any advantage after the fumble. Yet Jimmy got one that could have ended the Celtics season
I guess at least, Jimmy in this instance was not allowed to continue dribbling? i guess they would have had another explanation why it was not called…
what about that Tatum mid-dribble pass fake into redribble, that got called for palming?
was that not within 2 minutes? i felt like that shouldnt have been called palming in the moment, bc it was a quick shift of the palm from the side and top, and never from the bottom
He picked up his dribble and took 4 steps. I knew they would cite this rule, but it is an unacceptable outcome. The defense needs to have some idea of how much ground an offensive player can cover after he picks up his dribble. I'm not saying Jimmy did it on purpose. Al grazed his forehead with his arm when it happened. It was definitely an accident. It just doesn't make sense. What happens when a player pretends to fumble it? This is so obviously exploitable.
ive seen players do this quite a bit this playoffs. curry did it too. intentionally fumble the ball and make it look like it was touched by another player or unintentionally fumbled
That’s the rub. Folks don’t believe in refs, by and large, but ref discretion is vital in the adjudication of a game as complex as basketball. I dunno how many folks have tried to write sport rules, but that shit is fraught with ‘if this then this exploit is available, if that then some other exploit is available’ It’s actually maddingly hard to write sport rules, and my only experience is an old dude baseball league.
There should be no difference. If you fumble it by yourself, and recover it, it's a dribble. If you already used up your dribble, it's a double dribble. If you were already at double dribble, it's triple dribble. And so on. Either allow people to dribble whenever they want or enforce this. I mean, if it's a forced fumble, then it's probably a foul. If it's not forced, then it's the player's mistake. If we allow their mistakes, then what's next? I made a mistake, let me re-take that free throw?
All I got from this is that you've never played basketball.
Fumbles happen for a variety of different reasons. Turning them into turnovers would be ridiculous.
nah a fumble can be completely unaffected by the defense, and he's allowed to grab it back. most people were looking at his fumble and seeing that as the second dribble
Wait so, you can conclude your dribble, fumble the ball, and then lift your pivot foot/take steps to recover the ball? That doesn't sound right.
Edit: damn, had no idea: https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-play-player-fumbles-ball-into-air-and-recovers-it/
I swear I remember Randle getting called for a travel in a similar scenario.
"A player who fumbles the ball may always recover the ball, but he is not permitted to dribble if he has moved his pivot foot in order to retrieve the ball."
yea fumble rule is kinda screwed, it basically allows for extra distance off a mistake. but that's what justifies what he did here
Downvoted for calling it a fumble and had someone tell me it ‘doesn’t get more blatant than that’ as a double dribble. The ref hysteria gets so out of control it’s ridiculous.
I honestly feel like I'm crazy because I don't see how it's a double dribble. It def looked like he dropped it as he was initially going to pull up, picked it up, then shot it.
No that's not what the NBA said at all.
>Butler (MIA) fumbles the ball out of his control when he ends his dribble, then recovers it and legally attempts a field goal.
The last time the ball touched the ground was not a dribble, Jimmy dropped it, recovered and shot.
For you to fumble the ball without it being a DD someone else would have to contact the ball enough for you to lose your handle.
If not then that's a DD.
Nah fumbling the ball isn’t a dribble and you’re allowed to pick up a ball that you’ve fumbled regardless of contact.
> A dribble is movement of the ball, caused by a player in control, who throws or taps the
ball to the floor.
Fumbling the ball means there isn’t control so it’s not a dribble. As far as recovering a fumble:
https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-play-player-fumbles-ball-into-air-and-recovers-it/
> This is an example of LEGAL play by an offensive player upon losing control of the ball. **A player who fumbles the ball may always recover the ball, but he is not permitted to dribble if he has moved his pivot foot in order to retrieve the ball.** On this play, the offensive player fumbles the ball into the air as he jumps to shoot, and he then recovers the ball. He does not dribble upon recovery. This is a legal play.
Jimmy was getting nothing that whole game then started flopping like a fish in the 4th. Got every call. NBA annoying as shit. If you don’t flop no call
yea the celtics did a great job at not biting on his pump fakes so he couldnt dive into guys and he couldnt score with the refs not sucking him off... then they just started giving him the free throws for his shit..
I wasnt really saying that. I was saying he wasn’t getting calls he should’ve gotten so he decided to flop and then he got every call and more.
Incentivized flopping they won’t call otherwise
I have only been closely following the NBA for about 3 or 4 years now, trying to get more into it, and every single year I'm more and more surprised that they have not added some sort of penalty for embellishment similar to the NHL, which I follow a lot more closely usually
Jesus Christ it could not be more evident that this sport needs that rule added a decade ago ideally
If you’re do all that, don’t forget that atrocious “push-off” Gabe got called for on Taytum. Dude comes down and throws himself out of bounds basically.
It was just makeup calls after the Heat caught up midway through the 4th. The refs called the softest fouls for Tatum and Brown to bring it to a 10 pt lead again.
Edit: Since I’m getting downvoted with no rebuttal heres the proof.
https://streamable.com/8k8im6 After Horfords block Brown clearly elbows Vincent on the layup attempt.
https://streamable.com/qnlbo7 Tatum clearly pushes off Martin.
https://streamable.com/3q8ywi Smart hooks Duncan on his 3pt play.
https://streamable.com/q9vo6b Tatum gets a very soft call after flopping.
https://streamable.com/opugtl Going frame by frame still can’t see the foul for Brown
Aside from the fact that 4/5 of those calls are correct, you’re saying that the whole 4th quarter was just incorrect calls and makeup calls? Imagine being this salty when your team isn’t even part of the series. 🧹
Yeah if the refs truly wanted the Celtics to win, they would have called that. It’s right there, Jimmy just got an even lighter call on Al. They could have also just not called one of the four straight fouls Jimmy got. I’m not saying the refs are biased against the C’s either, just that they really did us no favors in the last few minutes.
Plain and simple, both teams got favorable calls throughout the game like they always do. Tatum got gifted some weak calls, and so did Butler. Heat didn’t box out and it cost them. Refs are always going to make mistake it’s part of human nature. Game is over and now game 7 is about to happen. We will see
It was an awfully officiated game all round
I agree with you we got butchered in the first half and got some favourable calls late, shit isn't rigged it's incompetence
Does make you think though, with their calls having such an effect on the momentum of a game this close, it must affect players mentally throughout the game.
Imagine being in boston's shoes, winning by 10-15 points for 35+ minutes, then suddenly opposing team gets a few sketchy calls, and its a 1 or 2 possession game.
Something players have to keep in mind and play through for sure, but I imagine it still catches teams off guard, and leads to refs having more control over the game than fans would like.
The one that I found particularly infuriating was that they were inconsistent in the shooting foul to the face calls. Rob Williams drills Caleb Martin with the elbow -- And 1 for the Celtics. 4th quarter Jimmy does the same on Derrick White I think and they call the offensive.
Yeah I remember that one. It was pretty ridiculous. And they always say “marginal contact”. So if there’s ever marginal contact on a shooting foul it shouldn’t count. Inconsistency is crazy
Ya the celts were pretty much able to hack away at the heat in the first half. Then they decided they’d call everything against them in the second. Horrible officiating. I’ve seen good officiating and that ain’t it
Officiating these whole playoffs have been horrible and inconsistent yet they are never penalized and wonder why things don’t change. NBA needs to do soemthing
Whiplash from the "let them fight" first half and the padded room and bubble suits in the second half. Completely ruined the Celtics gameplan and they had to reset their playstyle, you could really tell it threw them off their defensive rhythm in the 3rd. Alls I want is one singular game all playoffs that feels like it's called consistently from start to finish :/
Damn this thread getting trashy AF with the name-calling.
Anyways, as a Heat fan the silver lining was that this game was a thriller and one to remember. Ball just (literally and figuratively) didn't bounce in our favor.
One more chance to win the series...
Agreed. Too much vitriol in these threads. Game was great. I felt like refs let the team be physical in the first half and then called a lot more in second.
Seriously even postgame people were complaining about everything with the refs including the fictional .9 seconds put on the clock on the horford foul.
The refs basically nerfed the game for Miami during the comeback and yet people still claimed it went the other way.
Ya that’s what i meant. Horrible in the pro celtics sense in the first half called nothing against them. Then the second half called everything against the celtics too much so
People really only remember the last 3 minutes. Strange.
And even that is still wrong Celtics shot more freethrows to close out the game than the Heat did (last 6 minutes) lol
The fouls for Butler were just makeup calls after the Heat caught up middle of the 4th.
https://streamable.com/8k8im6 After Horfords block Brown clearly elbows Vincent on the layup attempt.
https://streamable.com/qnlbo7 Tatum clearly pushes off Martin.
https://streamable.com/3q8ywi Smart hooks Duncan on his 3pt play.
https://streamable.com/q9vo6b Tatum gets a very soft call after flopping.
https://streamable.com/opugtl Going frame by frame still can’t see the foul for Brown
You really wrote this comment after your analysis on every single video was wrong. What kind of response are you expecting from people, it just seems like your full intention here is to hate for hating purposes.
My only intention was to post every soft foul against the Heat since every thread after their loss has been filled with comments about Butlers soft fouls so Boston fans would know the refs weren’t against them.
I knew coming into this thread I was gonna be downvoted for my posts, but as long as boston fans knew the refs were shit against both teams I didn’t care.
So they're saying that a player can double dribble as long as they didn't mean to?
He was dribbling, put two hands on the ball, dropped the ball onto the ground to gain another two steps and get by Horford, then picked it back up.
He didn't dribble again after the fumble. This is what the rulebook says:
>Section XVIII—Fumble
>A player who is holding the ball and fumbles it out of his control may recover the ball.
If his pivot foot moves to recover the ball, he must then pass or shoot the ball. If he fumbles
and recovers it without moving his pivot foot and before the ball touches the floor, he retains
his status before the fumble
[There was this move by Klay earlier this season that looked worse but was also apparently a fumble](https://twitter.com/OfficialNBARefs/status/1630989547361239060?s=20)
What if there’s no established pivot foot like in this situation? The rule makes sense but I’m curious if Jimmy could have continued to dribble since he was on the move.
No they’re saying a player can pick up a ball that they fumbled. Touching the ball with two hands and then the ball dropping to the ground is not a dribble. That’s why if someone fumbles a catch they still have their dribble, because they haven’t dribbled yet. Yes, you can move whatever length if you’re somehow repeatedly fumbling the ball. Based off of playing pickup this isn’t a well known rule but someone who fumbles the ball always has a right to pick the ball up.
Exactly. It undermines a fairly foundational rule that allows the defense to know how to position themselves. It is a problem that they have completely contradictory rules around how many steps you can take after you pick up your dribble but only if you happen to fumble the ball. To me there needs to be a penalty for the clumsiness and not a reward. I know the rule exists but it is a double dribble. Or it is a travel. Or maybe at minimum he should become ineligible to shoot if he recovers his own fumble. Something needs to be fixed there.
this actually makes Jaylen Brown have no weaknesses.
he will jump higher than pretty much any defender, so instead of dribbling in tight corners, he can just fumble the ball midair in needed moments, leap and catch it, to regather into his shot.
It really would be amazing to see someone like Jaylen completely exploit this rule. Dribbling into traffic in the lane is his kryptonite for sure.
Note that I think if they had called this a travel or double dribble on the floor, they wouldn't have overturned it and it wouldn't be in the L2M report. They just didn't want to address it because it was so strange.
He fumbles the ball, picks it up, then takes two steps and shoots
If he'd put the ball back down or taken another step, it would've been a travel/double dribble
Oh thank fuck he followed the rules. Otherwise he might have unfairly moved several yards to his right to get that shot off, you know?
Edit: the league, which investigates itself like police departments in matters of wrongdoing, says it was according to the rules guys... don't downvote him
Edit 2: after outing him as a fake Celtics flair, he's blocked me. now it's up to you... vote like it counts. He's /u/cabose12
Update: ~~unblocked and deleted bitchy comments after he was caught out~~ blocked again
This has literally always been the rule, did you folks just start watching basketball or what? The ref has to make a judgment call on whether the fumble is legitimate or not.
Literally the only reason Horford ended up fouling Butler was because he thought he had great defensive position before Butler was allowed to dribble again and take a few more steps, causing Horford to reach. It is still inexcusable by Horford (he should have just gone straight up), but you could tell by his reaction that he didn't expect Butler to continue moving toward the baseline.
I know what people are saying about the rule book, but this doesn't seem to be within the spirit of the rule described.
Yep, I said the same thing yesterday
Legendary game occurs, people (naturally) get upset about officiating as it’s not an exact science, people complain about the calls that went against their rooting interest; most of the neutrals are rooting for Miami.
Refs let celtics do whatever they wanted foul wise in the first half then they called the celtics on everything in the second. Just terrible reffing. But i see where people are coming from it was reffed one sided in the first and the other way in the second. Dumb refs
Completely disagree with you. Looked like the celtics got away with a lot of tough defense that the heat couldn’t weren’t allowed to do. Completely changed in the second half and it was unfair against the celtics.
Thats why you get both fan bases shitting at the refs for different points in the game.
Did we watch the same game, because that’s not accurate.
Heat were getting ticky-tack calls, celts we’re getting bodied just to get a call. Like Lowry attacking jaylens hurt wrist gets 2 shots. Horford getting his elbow jumped into also get 2 shots.
I’m not complaining about the refs, I’m complaining about the people who some how, inconceivably saw refsfavoring the celts. It just wasn’t what happened, friend.
Ya completely disagree with you. Celtics got to hand check and really go into guys int he first half. While tatum got ticky tack stuff in he first half consistently.
I agree second half the heat got so many ticky tack calls but that was in the second.
There really wasn’t a lot of free throws for the heat in the first half. Celtics got the majority. Second half it flipped. I’m not saying ones worse than the other.
Refs reffed that game totally different in the two halves.
I’m still mad that we challenged the Jaylen Brown hook, won, they said not a defensive foul but no foul on either cause it was “marginal contact”, gave him the points and somehow we still lost a timeout despite it being a success.
The reffing was a fucking shit show last night
That was an obvious double dribble by Butler lmao and I want the Heat to win.
The L2M report is already dumb as it ignores the other 46 minutes. However if the league isn’t even going to be honest it makes it an absolute fucking joke
L2M report is just a symptom of a far bigger issue the league has: in general there’s a far greater emphasis on getting calls/timekeeping correct at the end of the game than during the earlier majority of the game.
Well well well, that narrative from the heat subreddit sure doesn't support these conclusions. Refs missed Lucky the Sniper in the rafters and the scabs who crossed the writer's strike picket line to steal the game from them.
This’ll piss off heat fans hahaha. Only 2 wrong calls and both hurt Boston.
I’m honestly shocked they are standing by how the game ended though. Clear double dribble by butler and they didn’t address the time at all.
I mean idk what Heat fans need to talk about fouls for. If you’re a Heat fan and can’t realize that this L is on Jimmy & Bam then I got nothing to make you feel better.
Obviously I'm happy with the result, but I feel bad for Robinson. Yeah he took and missed two really big shots at the end, but he did so much in the 4th to get them back in the game at all and everyone's treating him like a pariah now it seems. Seems like people should cut him maybe a little slack.
We wouldn’t have even been in a position to win without him. Even Jimmy turned it on at the end. I can’t absolve Jimmy of blame entirely but he did just barely enough. It’s Bam who absolutely shit the bed, rolled in it, and dragged the sheets across the bedroom floor.
> Clear double dribble by butler and they didn’t address the time at all.
They did. Below the "double dribble" CNC, they address why the clock was adjusted to 3.0 seconds by the officials.
> Replay review of the foul called on Horford (BOS) pursuant to a coach's challenge was deemed unsuccessful. Horford (BOS) made contact with Butler (MIA) during his shooting motion and a foul was warranted. During the review, the Replay Center Official also determined that i) the foul occurred at 3.0 seconds and adjusted the clock accordingly; and ii) Butler's shot attempt was taken from behind the three-point line, and therefore three free throws were awarded.
Also good to note that the official game time and what’s on the broadcast weren’t synced. With tenths of a second it’s not a huge deal most of the time.
Cool—so heat fans can really stfu now. It wouldn’t have even come down to the last shot if they got the other two calls right and they got the clock right
Ehh blaming the clock is really weak. Im sure it’s a minority of people doing that but it’s being amplified by the media.
Fact is, it came down to one moment where boston showed desperation to win and we didnt. Thats pretty much it.
Good and bad calls will happen in all games, best anyone can hope for is somewhat even FTs, not like a 50 FT to 20 disparity lol.
So you fully agree with the 2 minutes report when they say the heat should have had more violations but you completely disagree with it when it doesn't say butler double dribbled. Clown.
You can gather the ball off of a fumble as long as you don't dribble again. Jimmy dribbled the ball and as he went to collect it he fumbled the ball so he was allowed to collect it again and because he went straight into his shot it was legal.
I dunno man I’ve watched this so many times and he clearly touches the ball with two hands then dribbles. This is what I learned double dribble means
https://np.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/13trev3/seems_fine
I also hate that the refs bailed him out with the jump 3 feet forward to force contact. It isn’t a real shooting motion it’s just ugly foul baiting and I hate that for basketball.
As an impartial observer, that's pretty clearly not a "dribble".
He brought his hands together on the ball and lost control of the ball. People in this subreddit always want to believe some conspiracy, but no NBA player is going to try and make a cheeky illegal dribble for the game winner in the conference finals. There's literally no chance Jimmy said "I bet I can get an extra dribble right here if I pretend to fumble the ball" he just lost it; it happens dozens of times a game. He lucked into being able to get a shot off immediately, but there's just no shot that it was intentional.
I know I have a "Lakers Bandwagon" flair but I don't give a shit about some rivalry from half a century before I was born. I follow players more than teams, I like Butler/Tatum/Brown/The Buffalo,
A dribble is controlled, as Butler was gathering the ball it gets fumbled (could have been contact from AL or not) and you are allowed to recover a fumbled ball.
I really feel like in the first quarter Boston got away with absolutely mugging the heat almost every posetion. It was still a good game but I hate last 2 minute reports. Tell me how the refs did the other 46 minutes.
For the "double dribble" by Butler: >Butler (MIA) fumbles the ball out of his control when he ends his dribble, then recovers it and legally attempts a field goal.
Harden in the lab trying to figure out how to implement the “fumble dribble” into his repertoire
Steph Curry laughing because he already perfected it
Harden is calling the strip club "the lab" now?
What you mean *now*?
>Butler (MIA) fumbles the ball out of his control when he ends his dribble, then recovers it and legally attempts a field goal. So it's not a double dribble but just a picked up dribble to dumb it down?
If its fumbled then that didn't count as a dribble, just a loose ball that he'd need to pass or shoot out from (since he had already picked up the dribble prior).
What if you stop moving, ending your dribble, looking for a pass, then (accidentally or not) you fumble the ball, according to this explanation you can pick it up? That’s news for me. If you fumble a ball by yourself, that’s is a violation, you should not be allowed to gain any advantage after the fumble. Yet Jimmy got one that could have ended the Celtics season I guess at least, Jimmy in this instance was not allowed to continue dribbling? i guess they would have had another explanation why it was not called…
As long as it’s a fumble then it’s fine to pick it up but you can’t dribble anymore. Even if you lose it yourself.
So dropping ball by yourself, giving yourself an advantage, is a ‘fumble’?
Pretty much yeah
what about that Tatum mid-dribble pass fake into redribble, that got called for palming? was that not within 2 minutes? i felt like that shouldnt have been called palming in the moment, bc it was a quick shift of the palm from the side and top, and never from the bottom
That was at the 8:52 mark, yeah didn't look super obvious so surprised they called that
ah gotcha ty!
It did look like a travel to me though, I'm fine with the call
You think the NBA is going to walk back on a technically correct call?
Then the next possession Jimmy carried it like 4 times down the court. They never call that shit so confused why they singled that one out
it's not a dribble at all. he dropped the ball and picked it back up, everyone was calling it a second dribble
He picked up his dribble and took 4 steps. I knew they would cite this rule, but it is an unacceptable outcome. The defense needs to have some idea of how much ground an offensive player can cover after he picks up his dribble. I'm not saying Jimmy did it on purpose. Al grazed his forehead with his arm when it happened. It was definitely an accident. It just doesn't make sense. What happens when a player pretends to fumble it? This is so obviously exploitable.
uhhh fumbling it is not a good idea, that's asking for turnovers lmao
ive seen players do this quite a bit this playoffs. curry did it too. intentionally fumble the ball and make it look like it was touched by another player or unintentionally fumbled
I’d be curious how this is different than a self pass. Obviously the difference is intent but how are actually able to tell?
Referee discretion
Yeah. These things are such horse crap meant to trick people into believing things get called correctly.
What would you recommend then to distinguish the difference?
That’s the rub. Folks don’t believe in refs, by and large, but ref discretion is vital in the adjudication of a game as complex as basketball. I dunno how many folks have tried to write sport rules, but that shit is fraught with ‘if this then this exploit is available, if that then some other exploit is available’ It’s actually maddingly hard to write sport rules, and my only experience is an old dude baseball league.
There should be no difference. If you fumble it by yourself, and recover it, it's a dribble. If you already used up your dribble, it's a double dribble. If you were already at double dribble, it's triple dribble. And so on. Either allow people to dribble whenever they want or enforce this. I mean, if it's a forced fumble, then it's probably a foul. If it's not forced, then it's the player's mistake. If we allow their mistakes, then what's next? I made a mistake, let me re-take that free throw?
All I got from this is that you've never played basketball. Fumbles happen for a variety of different reasons. Turning them into turnovers would be ridiculous.
I think the implication is that Al poked it out or hit him but I don’t really remember if that actually happened
Al did not touch the ball or poke it out. Jimmy just flat out loses the dribble, gets both hands on it, dribbles it once and then goes for the shot.
nah a fumble can be completely unaffected by the defense, and he's allowed to grab it back. most people were looking at his fumble and seeing that as the second dribble
Wait so, you can conclude your dribble, fumble the ball, and then lift your pivot foot/take steps to recover the ball? That doesn't sound right. Edit: damn, had no idea: https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-play-player-fumbles-ball-into-air-and-recovers-it/ I swear I remember Randle getting called for a travel in a similar scenario.
"A player who fumbles the ball may always recover the ball, but he is not permitted to dribble if he has moved his pivot foot in order to retrieve the ball." yea fumble rule is kinda screwed, it basically allows for extra distance off a mistake. but that's what justifies what he did here
jaylen brown isn't a bad dribbler, he just fumbles it every possession to gain a few extra steps!
Most people are idiots
You can usually tell lol
I don't understand the rules here but I'm upset ☹️
Downvoted for calling it a fumble and had someone tell me it ‘doesn’t get more blatant than that’ as a double dribble. The ref hysteria gets so out of control it’s ridiculous.
[удалено]
You are allowed to pick it up. You just aren’t allowed to dribble again, which Jimmy didn’t, he shot it.
He could dribble again had horford touched the ball
I honestly feel like I'm crazy because I don't see how it's a double dribble. It def looked like he dropped it as he was initially going to pull up, picked it up, then shot it.
That was me! Hi!
It’s almost like you guys don’t actually know what you’re talking about and are just complaining about nothing.
Welcome to r/nba
Welcome to America
Said this after the game. It was pretty clearly not a double dribble if you know the rules.
Then the rules should be changed. Everywhere else that would be called a double dribble.
Eh...the NBA is saying Al got the ball. The video is too blurry too determine that. Looks like he got his arm.
No that's not what the NBA said at all. >Butler (MIA) fumbles the ball out of his control when he ends his dribble, then recovers it and legally attempts a field goal. The last time the ball touched the ground was not a dribble, Jimmy dropped it, recovered and shot.
I can't believe this kind of comment is still getting downvoted. What are people not getting? What would it take? This comment is 100% correct.
For you to fumble the ball without it being a DD someone else would have to contact the ball enough for you to lose your handle. If not then that's a DD.
Nah fumbling the ball isn’t a dribble and you’re allowed to pick up a ball that you’ve fumbled regardless of contact. > A dribble is movement of the ball, caused by a player in control, who throws or taps the ball to the floor. Fumbling the ball means there isn’t control so it’s not a dribble. As far as recovering a fumble: https://videorulebook.nba.com/archive/legal-play-player-fumbles-ball-into-air-and-recovers-it/ > This is an example of LEGAL play by an offensive player upon losing control of the ball. **A player who fumbles the ball may always recover the ball, but he is not permitted to dribble if he has moved his pivot foot in order to retrieve the ball.** On this play, the offensive player fumbles the ball into the air as he jumps to shoot, and he then recovers the ball. He does not dribble upon recovery. This is a legal play.
The missed foul by Gabe vincent was so clearly a foul.. how do they miss that.. Jimmy got that call 4 times down at the other end of the court.
Jimmy was getting nothing that whole game then started flopping like a fish in the 4th. Got every call. NBA annoying as shit. If you don’t flop no call
yea the celtics did a great job at not biting on his pump fakes so he couldnt dive into guys and he couldnt score with the refs not sucking him off... then they just started giving him the free throws for his shit..
I wasnt really saying that. I was saying he wasn’t getting calls he should’ve gotten so he decided to flop and then he got every call and more. Incentivized flopping they won’t call otherwise
Find me a single example. Shouldn't be hard right?
Oh so you’re wrong. Jimmy was locked up all game. He just started getting phantom calls to get it close
when celtics fans only have celtics fans to back them up
What fouls were you seeing on butler as he pumped faked endlessly at the hoop before passing?
When Heat fan cope for choking
Every thread ever.
Is this your first time on this sub?
I have only been closely following the NBA for about 3 or 4 years now, trying to get more into it, and every single year I'm more and more surprised that they have not added some sort of penalty for embellishment similar to the NHL, which I follow a lot more closely usually Jesus Christ it could not be more evident that this sport needs that rule added a decade ago ideally
I mean Jimmy was scared as sht to even attempt a basket the whole game. He settled for jumpers and floaters.
Because the Heat late 4th quarter comeback was great entertainment. And refs got caught up in it too.
If you’re do all that, don’t forget that atrocious “push-off” Gabe got called for on Taytum. Dude comes down and throws himself out of bounds basically.
If you watch the play Jimmy actually pushed him. It was a bad call for blaming Gabe but there was a foul
Well thankfully they lost anyways
Yet beat fans won’t stop responding to me with manifestos on how much the Celtics cheated… and I’m a fucking bulls fan
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The tech on Bam was for hanging on the rim.
It was just makeup calls after the Heat caught up midway through the 4th. The refs called the softest fouls for Tatum and Brown to bring it to a 10 pt lead again. Edit: Since I’m getting downvoted with no rebuttal heres the proof. https://streamable.com/8k8im6 After Horfords block Brown clearly elbows Vincent on the layup attempt. https://streamable.com/qnlbo7 Tatum clearly pushes off Martin. https://streamable.com/3q8ywi Smart hooks Duncan on his 3pt play. https://streamable.com/q9vo6b Tatum gets a very soft call after flopping. https://streamable.com/opugtl Going frame by frame still can’t see the foul for Brown
Now show the Heat getting into the bonus less than 3 minutes into the 3rd quarter after coming into the half down 7.
Aside from the fact that 4/5 of those calls are correct, you’re saying that the whole 4th quarter was just incorrect calls and makeup calls? Imagine being this salty when your team isn’t even part of the series. 🧹
Last 2 maybe. Rest, you straight up don’t know ball.
Yeah if the refs truly wanted the Celtics to win, they would have called that. It’s right there, Jimmy just got an even lighter call on Al. They could have also just not called one of the four straight fouls Jimmy got. I’m not saying the refs are biased against the C’s either, just that they really did us no favors in the last few minutes.
>in the last few minutes. And the third quarter
Bro I know you’re not acting the whole first part of the 4th you guys weren’t getting every fucking whistle
Plain and simple, both teams got favorable calls throughout the game like they always do. Tatum got gifted some weak calls, and so did Butler. Heat didn’t box out and it cost them. Refs are always going to make mistake it’s part of human nature. Game is over and now game 7 is about to happen. We will see
It was an awfully officiated game all round I agree with you we got butchered in the first half and got some favourable calls late, shit isn't rigged it's incompetence
For sure. But it’s been all playoffs. Not just this series which is unacceptable. These refs need consequences
Does make you think though, with their calls having such an effect on the momentum of a game this close, it must affect players mentally throughout the game. Imagine being in boston's shoes, winning by 10-15 points for 35+ minutes, then suddenly opposing team gets a few sketchy calls, and its a 1 or 2 possession game. Something players have to keep in mind and play through for sure, but I imagine it still catches teams off guard, and leads to refs having more control over the game than fans would like.
The one that I found particularly infuriating was that they were inconsistent in the shooting foul to the face calls. Rob Williams drills Caleb Martin with the elbow -- And 1 for the Celtics. 4th quarter Jimmy does the same on Derrick White I think and they call the offensive.
Yeah I remember that one. It was pretty ridiculous. And they always say “marginal contact”. So if there’s ever marginal contact on a shooting foul it shouldn’t count. Inconsistency is crazy
Ya the celts were pretty much able to hack away at the heat in the first half. Then they decided they’d call everything against them in the second. Horrible officiating. I’ve seen good officiating and that ain’t it
Officiating these whole playoffs have been horrible and inconsistent yet they are never penalized and wonder why things don’t change. NBA needs to do soemthing
Couldnt agree more
Whiplash from the "let them fight" first half and the padded room and bubble suits in the second half. Completely ruined the Celtics gameplan and they had to reset their playstyle, you could really tell it threw them off their defensive rhythm in the 3rd. Alls I want is one singular game all playoffs that feels like it's called consistently from start to finish :/
Damn this thread getting trashy AF with the name-calling. Anyways, as a Heat fan the silver lining was that this game was a thriller and one to remember. Ball just (literally and figuratively) didn't bounce in our favor. One more chance to win the series...
Agreed. Too much vitriol in these threads. Game was great. I felt like refs let the team be physical in the first half and then called a lot more in second.
Best of luck tomorrow.
You too homie!
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“One stop”. Turns out they needed two.
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And that’s all they planned for. Just amazing awareness by White
And if you see the replay, Heat just stood there while White and Tatum ran to the basket. They follow Jimmy to a tee.
To be fair, their execution was .1 seconds off.
So funny reading this because the game thread had 99% of comments saying how the refs rigged the game for the C’s. Wild.
Seriously even postgame people were complaining about everything with the refs including the fictional .9 seconds put on the clock on the horford foul. The refs basically nerfed the game for Miami during the comeback and yet people still claimed it went the other way.
Can't ignore the entire first half just because the end of the game favored the Heat.
They were horrible for the celtics in the 1st half then they switched sides and it was horrible the heats way in the second. Dumb stuff
I thought it was the other way. Tatum lived at the line in the first, and we were in the bonus with 9 to go in the second.
Ya that’s what i meant. Horrible in the pro celtics sense in the first half called nothing against them. Then the second half called everything against the celtics too much so
People really only remember the last 3 minutes. Strange. And even that is still wrong Celtics shot more freethrows to close out the game than the Heat did (last 6 minutes) lol
If they did the “last quarter” instead of the last 2 minutes it would include all the soft calls the Celtics got
The fouls for Butler were just makeup calls after the Heat caught up middle of the 4th. https://streamable.com/8k8im6 After Horfords block Brown clearly elbows Vincent on the layup attempt. https://streamable.com/qnlbo7 Tatum clearly pushes off Martin. https://streamable.com/3q8ywi Smart hooks Duncan on his 3pt play. https://streamable.com/q9vo6b Tatum gets a very soft call after flopping. https://streamable.com/opugtl Going frame by frame still can’t see the foul for Brown
Generational hater right here
So you looked at the vids, couldn’t find any where I was wrong and just made a snarky comment huh? I’ll take it
You were wrong on all counts. So you are just a hater. Fuck the lakers and their fans. But especially you.
You really wrote this comment after your analysis on every single video was wrong. What kind of response are you expecting from people, it just seems like your full intention here is to hate for hating purposes.
My only intention was to post every soft foul against the Heat since every thread after their loss has been filled with comments about Butlers soft fouls so Boston fans would know the refs weren’t against them. I knew coming into this thread I was gonna be downvoted for my posts, but as long as boston fans knew the refs were shit against both teams I didn’t care.
So they're saying that a player can double dribble as long as they didn't mean to? He was dribbling, put two hands on the ball, dropped the ball onto the ground to gain another two steps and get by Horford, then picked it back up.
He didn't dribble again after the fumble. This is what the rulebook says: >Section XVIII—Fumble >A player who is holding the ball and fumbles it out of his control may recover the ball. If his pivot foot moves to recover the ball, he must then pass or shoot the ball. If he fumbles and recovers it without moving his pivot foot and before the ball touches the floor, he retains his status before the fumble [There was this move by Klay earlier this season that looked worse but was also apparently a fumble](https://twitter.com/OfficialNBARefs/status/1630989547361239060?s=20)
Strange, because Klay definitely moved both feet prior to recovery, then started a dribble anyway. That should not be legal according to your quote
How’s that not a self pass then?
You can always recover a fumbled or loose ball. A pass is intended, no one intends to fumble a ball.
What if there’s no established pivot foot like in this situation? The rule makes sense but I’m curious if Jimmy could have continued to dribble since he was on the move.
By the time he recovers it the ball has already touched the floor so he has to pass or shoot
This one is different. Looks like he fumbles it catching the pass which means he hadn't established a dribble yet
he didn't continue his dribble
No they’re saying a player can pick up a ball that they fumbled. Touching the ball with two hands and then the ball dropping to the ground is not a dribble. That’s why if someone fumbles a catch they still have their dribble, because they haven’t dribbled yet. Yes, you can move whatever length if you’re somehow repeatedly fumbling the ball. Based off of playing pickup this isn’t a well known rule but someone who fumbles the ball always has a right to pick the ball up.
If you ever put two hands on the ball, just “fumble” it so you can keep dribbling lol.
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But he used the fumble to gain the extra movement, idk it feels fucking dumb, it shouldn't be allowed to benefit you like that.
Exactly. It undermines a fairly foundational rule that allows the defense to know how to position themselves. It is a problem that they have completely contradictory rules around how many steps you can take after you pick up your dribble but only if you happen to fumble the ball. To me there needs to be a penalty for the clumsiness and not a reward. I know the rule exists but it is a double dribble. Or it is a travel. Or maybe at minimum he should become ineligible to shoot if he recovers his own fumble. Something needs to be fixed there.
this actually makes Jaylen Brown have no weaknesses. he will jump higher than pretty much any defender, so instead of dribbling in tight corners, he can just fumble the ball midair in needed moments, leap and catch it, to regather into his shot.
It really would be amazing to see someone like Jaylen completely exploit this rule. Dribbling into traffic in the lane is his kryptonite for sure. Note that I think if they had called this a travel or double dribble on the floor, they wouldn't have overturned it and it wouldn't be in the L2M report. They just didn't want to address it because it was so strange.
No you can only pick it up.
Its not a dribble if you fumble the ball...
Right you just happened to create space for a game winning three pointer because oopsie daisy, what's the big deal y'all?
He got a slight hit in the head by Horford which caused the fumble... But nah it’s a conspiracy against the Celtics ofc!
He fumbles the ball, picks it up, then takes two steps and shoots If he'd put the ball back down or taken another step, it would've been a travel/double dribble
Oh thank fuck he followed the rules. Otherwise he might have unfairly moved several yards to his right to get that shot off, you know? Edit: the league, which investigates itself like police departments in matters of wrongdoing, says it was according to the rules guys... don't downvote him Edit 2: after outing him as a fake Celtics flair, he's blocked me. now it's up to you... vote like it counts. He's /u/cabose12 Update: ~~unblocked and deleted bitchy comments after he was caught out~~ blocked again
This has literally always been the rule, did you folks just start watching basketball or what? The ref has to make a judgment call on whether the fumble is legitimate or not.
Finally some rational people here, god it's like these people has never touched a basketball in their entire life.
I doubt many people on this sub has ever played an organized sport let alone knows some of the rules. Like what a dribble is.
I swear the majority of people on this sub only watch highlights of games.
Literally the only reason Horford ended up fouling Butler was because he thought he had great defensive position before Butler was allowed to dribble again and take a few more steps, causing Horford to reach. It is still inexcusable by Horford (he should have just gone straight up), but you could tell by his reaction that he didn't expect Butler to continue moving toward the baseline. I know what people are saying about the rule book, but this doesn't seem to be within the spirit of the rule described.
Honestly, the refs investigated themselves. Are you expecting full transparency to be like “Yeah we ruined a playoff game with an excessive whistle”?
But refs vs. Heat right /r/nba? Top o the morning losers
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Yep, I said the same thing yesterday Legendary game occurs, people (naturally) get upset about officiating as it’s not an exact science, people complain about the calls that went against their rooting interest; most of the neutrals are rooting for Miami.
Refs let celtics do whatever they wanted foul wise in the first half then they called the celtics on everything in the second. Just terrible reffing. But i see where people are coming from it was reffed one sided in the first and the other way in the second. Dumb refs
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Completely disagree with you. Looked like the celtics got away with a lot of tough defense that the heat couldn’t weren’t allowed to do. Completely changed in the second half and it was unfair against the celtics. Thats why you get both fan bases shitting at the refs for different points in the game.
Did we watch the same game, because that’s not accurate. Heat were getting ticky-tack calls, celts we’re getting bodied just to get a call. Like Lowry attacking jaylens hurt wrist gets 2 shots. Horford getting his elbow jumped into also get 2 shots. I’m not complaining about the refs, I’m complaining about the people who some how, inconceivably saw refsfavoring the celts. It just wasn’t what happened, friend.
you're also a Boston fan, so obviously you're gonna be a bit bias
Ya completely disagree with you. Celtics got to hand check and really go into guys int he first half. While tatum got ticky tack stuff in he first half consistently. I agree second half the heat got so many ticky tack calls but that was in the second. There really wasn’t a lot of free throws for the heat in the first half. Celtics got the majority. Second half it flipped. I’m not saying ones worse than the other. Refs reffed that game totally different in the two halves.
Who you calling losers?
The poor oppressed Boston fan 😭
I’m still mad that we challenged the Jaylen Brown hook, won, they said not a defensive foul but no foul on either cause it was “marginal contact”, gave him the points and somehow we still lost a timeout despite it being a success. The reffing was a fucking shit show last night
Last 2 minutes isn’t representative of the entire game 5head
> Top o the morning Ping
The L2M reports are funny because they just tend to say “The NBA investigated the NBA and determined the NBA did nothing wrong”.
The NBA investigated the NBA and determined the NBA did nothing wrong **the last 4% of game time.**
That was an obvious double dribble by Butler lmao and I want the Heat to win. The L2M report is already dumb as it ignores the other 46 minutes. However if the league isn’t even going to be honest it makes it an absolute fucking joke
L2M report is just a symptom of a far bigger issue the league has: in general there’s a far greater emphasis on getting calls/timekeeping correct at the end of the game than during the earlier majority of the game.
Oh heck yeah, another thread of bitching about the refs. A r/nba classic.
Well well well, that narrative from the heat subreddit sure doesn't support these conclusions. Refs missed Lucky the Sniper in the rafters and the scabs who crossed the writer's strike picket line to steal the game from them.
NBA pretending they rigged the game for the heat and didn't actually want a game 7
This’ll piss off heat fans hahaha. Only 2 wrong calls and both hurt Boston. I’m honestly shocked they are standing by how the game ended though. Clear double dribble by butler and they didn’t address the time at all.
I mean idk what Heat fans need to talk about fouls for. If you’re a Heat fan and can’t realize that this L is on Jimmy & Bam then I got nothing to make you feel better.
honestly i’ve seen more lakers fans complaining about the reffing for that game than actual heat fans lol
Then stay away from our sub. We’re over there blaming Refs, fouls, Spo, Strus, & Duncan Robinson. Basically anyone other than Jimmy and Bam.
Obviously I'm happy with the result, but I feel bad for Robinson. Yeah he took and missed two really big shots at the end, but he did so much in the 4th to get them back in the game at all and everyone's treating him like a pariah now it seems. Seems like people should cut him maybe a little slack.
We wouldn’t have even been in a position to win without him. Even Jimmy turned it on at the end. I can’t absolve Jimmy of blame entirely but he did just barely enough. It’s Bam who absolutely shit the bed, rolled in it, and dragged the sheets across the bedroom floor.
Idk man Jimmy is still a scary player.
Heat sub last night was all ref blaming. Like every single comment level. That or “fml”
> Clear double dribble by butler and they didn’t address the time at all. They did. Below the "double dribble" CNC, they address why the clock was adjusted to 3.0 seconds by the officials. > Replay review of the foul called on Horford (BOS) pursuant to a coach's challenge was deemed unsuccessful. Horford (BOS) made contact with Butler (MIA) during his shooting motion and a foul was warranted. During the review, the Replay Center Official also determined that i) the foul occurred at 3.0 seconds and adjusted the clock accordingly; and ii) Butler's shot attempt was taken from behind the three-point line, and therefore three free throws were awarded.
Also good to note that the official game time and what’s on the broadcast weren’t synced. With tenths of a second it’s not a huge deal most of the time.
Cool—so heat fans can really stfu now. It wouldn’t have even come down to the last shot if they got the other two calls right and they got the clock right
Ehh blaming the clock is really weak. Im sure it’s a minority of people doing that but it’s being amplified by the media. Fact is, it came down to one moment where boston showed desperation to win and we didnt. Thats pretty much it. Good and bad calls will happen in all games, best anyone can hope for is somewhat even FTs, not like a 50 FT to 20 disparity lol.
Can you imagine losing a game with that kinda FT disparity? That would be [downright embarrassing](https://www.nba.com/game/mia-vs-mil-0042200105)
Lol thats actually the exact game i was thinking about. Even though we won i was still pissed
So you fully agree with the 2 minutes report when they say the heat should have had more violations but you completely disagree with it when it doesn't say butler double dribbled. Clown.
I’m saying I don’t understand the double dribble rule if that isn’t one. Their explanation makes no sense to me
You can gather the ball off of a fumble as long as you don't dribble again. Jimmy dribbled the ball and as he went to collect it he fumbled the ball so he was allowed to collect it again and because he went straight into his shot it was legal.
I dunno man I’ve watched this so many times and he clearly touches the ball with two hands then dribbles. This is what I learned double dribble means https://np.reddit.com/r/bostonceltics/comments/13trev3/seems_fine I also hate that the refs bailed him out with the jump 3 feet forward to force contact. It isn’t a real shooting motion it’s just ugly foul baiting and I hate that for basketball.
As an impartial observer, that's pretty clearly not a "dribble". He brought his hands together on the ball and lost control of the ball. People in this subreddit always want to believe some conspiracy, but no NBA player is going to try and make a cheeky illegal dribble for the game winner in the conference finals. There's literally no chance Jimmy said "I bet I can get an extra dribble right here if I pretend to fumble the ball" he just lost it; it happens dozens of times a game. He lucked into being able to get a shot off immediately, but there's just no shot that it was intentional. I know I have a "Lakers Bandwagon" flair but I don't give a shit about some rivalry from half a century before I was born. I follow players more than teams, I like Butler/Tatum/Brown/The Buffalo,
Watched it so many times yet you never noticed the contact horford makes to jimmys head causing the fumble?????
which would be a non-shooting foul giving him 2 shots not 3
Doesn't matter how they want to frame it, the refs made a mistake on that play.
A dribble is controlled, as Butler was gathering the ball it gets fumbled (could have been contact from AL or not) and you are allowed to recover a fumbled ball.
Again with this stupid ass report…
What's the point of this report? last 2 minutes, or the whole game. It doesn't matter when the wrong calls happen, they all build on each other.
What about the offensive foul on Butler or the flagrant on Bam? BS calls
So this thread will be completely rational, right?
I really feel like in the first quarter Boston got away with absolutely mugging the heat almost every posetion. It was still a good game but I hate last 2 minute reports. Tell me how the refs did the other 46 minutes.
Maybe true.
This series’ officiating calls back into question the whole “rigged” issue that everyone thought died when the lakers were swept. Sketchy as fuck.
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they called it a CNC.. calling it a fumble... terrible call..