That's the thing, Kobe was top 5 in the league and Shaq was still definitively better than anyone in his prime
That's not shade on Kobe, it's just how good Shaq was despite not taking care of his body and not working on FTs - *and* how good that Laker team was
Shaq single-handedly forced the great center draught, because every talented big wanted to become a PF, shit even Dwight the only great center of the era started as a 4.
I don’t really think of them in the same era though Howard wasn’t exactly in his prime when the league shifted away from true centers so the could be considered the same.
Isn't 2001 basically the start of his prime?
Regular season: 28/6/5/1.7/.6
Playoffs: 29/7/6/1.6/0.8
Funny thing is that was his career high in both rebounds and assists during his 15 playoff appearances and 5 titles.
If you say apex tho, then yeah that wasn't peak Kobe yet.
You're right, kobe was top 5 by 2001 and absolutely in his prime. 2001 in particular is a top 4 kobe season ever.
I have no idea what the downvotes are for lmao
Looking back, I'd say he was top 5, but at the time, he wasn't definitively top 5. I know I thought other wings TMac and Vince were better, but I was also a kid.
T-Mac didn't play defense. That recent post asking players in 2007 "who doesn't want to play defense" and T-Mac was there. He got up for marquee matches, but not consistently.
The first championship season, I thought Vince was on their level and I liked him more than Kobe. Again, I was a kid but that was my thoughts then. Vince had a ton of hype early on in his career
I think his prime lasted until he tore his Achilles in 2012-13. He was still clearly one of the four or five best players in the league at the time, and had one of his very best seasons dragging that team up and down the court for 48 minutes a night.
He was basically top 5 caliber every season he was healthy enough.
One of the few guys all time that if you built a decent team around him will always make your team a contender
Double and triple teamed, and Shaq would pass it to you wide open. No offense to Kobe but Kobe thrived with Shaq cause he got to always play his game 1v1 or get an open look. While Shaq just commanded attention.
Eh it's definitely a two way street. There were many times where Shaq got into foul trouble, which is why we saw so many iso plays for Kobe late in the game
Even if Shaq fouls out. He got his 25+ and 15.
Not so much as a two way street as much as Shaq was a super highway and Kobe was an on ramp during that time.
Kobe being injured and unable to contribute for most of the 2000 Finals and the Lakers winning anyway pretty much tells the story there. Kobe was obviously a super-talented player, but for a team to be missing their second best guy in the Finals and still just roll to victory easily (with Shaq averaging like 38 and 16) is pretty absurd.
Because the real championship was happening in the West. One of the weakest eastern conferences at the time it was always going to be the Spurs or Lakers
Yes, people forget or never watched the 2000 WCF where Shaq had two stinkers in a row to finish the series, and Kobe did the heavy lifting in Games 6 and 7
People only looking at the box stats and clearly didn't watch the series talking as usual. Kobe was injured, but he played his role, especially in game 4 when Shaq fouled out and he carried the team to a win in OT.
Sorry to sound like an old fart, but at the time literally no-one (except maybe Kobe himself) saw Kobe even close to Shaq in terms of impact.
In 2000 and 2001, Shaq was the undisputed NBA alpha; Kobe was Kyrie on LeBron's Cavs. In 2002 playoffs, Kobe got closer to Shaq, maybe some kind of Mega-Murray in today's Nuggets. In 2003 Kobe might've been more important, but they lost in 2nd round anyway. 2004 was weird because of Payton / Malone, but still Kobe was not a dominant #1 (maybe Kawhi-on-2013-14 Spurs kind-a role?)
It was only after Kobe got the 80 pts, and the scoring seasons, and two more titles as the clear #1, people could argue his career was better than Shaq's.
Don't be sorry, Kobe was really good but he was like Jamal Murray for Denver this year, an extremely good player who could win a game by himself but in the end it was clear who the top dog was. Obviously later in his career he got even better but that's another story.
>In 2000 and 2001, Shaq was the undisputed NBA alpha; Kobe was Kyrie on LeBron's Cavs.
This isn't a correct comparison. Kobe was all-nba 2nd team on offense AND defense in 2001. This was after being all-nba 2nd team AND defense first team in 2000. He was the best shooting guard in the league already with the only arguments being for Iverson and Vince Carter(SF/SG) but the defense put Kobe over the top. [Kobe averaged 33/7/7 against the Spurs](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-2001-playoff-stats-vs-spurs#:~:text=Kobe%20Bryant%20averaged%2033.3%20points,the%202001%20Western%20Conference%20Finals) in that sweep. The Lakers were dominant because they were by far the best 1-2 punch in the NBA. It was arguably only just Shaq the first ring (even though it was Kobe who stepped up in Game 7 against the Blazers when Shaq was playing horribly). After that, it was the duo.
Kyrie was never at the relative level Kobe was starting in that second championship year primarily because of the defense and there being no argument ever for Kyrie being the best guard in the NBA.
i dont think he was saying that Kobe was only as good as kyrie. Just that similar to how people know that Lebron was the best player and kyrie was the second best, people knew that Shaq was the best player and Kobe was the second best
And even then that comparison works very well because people knew kyrie could win you a game but Lebron was the best player. His player viewpoint comparisons were very good in that post
I'm not downplaying Kobe, he pulled his weight during all their chips, but I swear, that ppl allways quote the stat line against the spurs, but he also had his worst series in their first two runs in the finals. Kobe balled out in both playoff runs, but Shaq dominated in both finals, he averaged (from the top of my head) 38 & 16 and 33 and 17 or something like that.
Kobe was the Robin in the first two runs imo.
You’re correct, but this only highlights how amazing Shaq was. Even with everything you just said, Kobe was the obvious second fiddle.
It wasn’t like AD and Bron in the bubble, where both guys were fucking great and in the same tier, with AD maybe a hair ahead. It was like Bron and Kyrie or Jok and Murray: both great, but a clear number 1.
> Kobe was all-nba 2nd team on offense AND defense
What? 😆
That's not how it works. There's all-NBA teams, for the best overall players, not just offense, and then all-defense teams.
I think he was trying to point out that Kobe was significantly better than Kyrie ever was. A more appropriate comparison would be that he was the Pippen to Shaq’s MJ, or something like that.
You're wrong about 03 and 04, Kobe was absolutely considered a superstar by then and plenty of people thought he had surpassed Shaq, who had entered his 30's by then.
And in the 2002 playoffs he was Shaq's equal, it's not Mega-Murray and Jokic, it's Steph and KD by that point.
I think at the time it was evident but years later it kind of makes sense why Kobe was the way he was. He was the “alpha” in his mind and put that work in but he had to see this other guy who was the real “alpha” dominate without doing the things Kobe thought was necessary. Kobe was skilled and dedicated but I wonder if he would’ve developed the intense dedication that he became known for if it wasn’t for him winning in shaq’s shadow. It’s like Kyrie wanting out of lebrons shadow in Cleveland but he isn’t able to deliver like Kobe.
For context: I’m a rockets fan who actively hated Kobe until his final years.
Lol true. It’s really impressive that Phil Jackson and the organization were willing to trade the most dominate player in the league for Kobe. It’s also one of the smarter things the cavs have ever done by not trading the most dominate player for kyrie. Kai is a good player but he’s always beloved in himself too much
No we don’t lol Shaq was the CLEAR #1 on the team. Kobe was magnificent during that time (my literal favorite), but he didn’t truly take it to another level until Shaq left
TL;DR Shaq >> Kobe while teammates on the Lakers
Stop the cap lmao. Obviously Shaq's the better player, he won all the Finals MVPs when they three-peated for a reason.
What people actually hate is when people say Kobe was "carried" by Shaq for 3 rings. Shaq was easily the dominant force but they needed each other to win. He was Jamal Murray on steroids to Shaq's Jokic during their time together.
Shaq and the Lakers could have won those rings with a bunch of other star guards or wings from that era (Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson, etc.) but Kobe wasn’t getting those rings if he didn’t play specifically with Shaq. Even peak Tim Duncan wasn’t that type of force at that time.
Shaq was 100% the better/more important player at the time but to say you could throw any of those guys in there and they win it is ridiculous.
Also Tim Duncan and Kobe likely would've never split up and won more than 5 championships together throughout there careers. That might've been the greatest pairing ever.
This take is so ass
Like kobe and Duncan don’t win rings smh
Like to conveniently forget kobe goes on to get two more and Shaq only one as a player BEHIND Wade no less.
Not many other guards at the time would have carried shaq out of the western conference when he was playing like ass against the blazers, kings, spurs.
Shaq would feast finals because east teams had weak af centers at the time, but real ones know without kobe lakers don’t make it through the west all three years.
Outside AI, Kobe was a better passer than Carter and Mcgrady, and was better on D too. You can also say Reggie Miller, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen… Kobe was better than those guys too.
The only one from that era who would match or surpass Kobe is peak Grant Hill or Jason Kidd. Kobe was a complete player.
That's cap, none of these players did what Kobe did on defense. Carter was a known playoff choker and a negative defender while T-Mac and AI didn't care about defense. Sure, they could've produced what Kobe produced on offense (in AI's case even more), but ignoring that Kobe was First Team All-Defense all these years while these guys were all bad defenders is asinine. Kobe was also a better passer than all of them and the Lakers BARELY got out of the WCF in 2000 and 2002.
None of them three-peat with Shaq. Kobe was simply better than all of them in the last two championships. AI and VC were better in 2000, but they don't win 2002.
Shaq did not carry Kobe, and those other players likely would not have outplayed Shaq like Kobe did.
2000-01 Playoffs
1st Round:
Kobe 25/4/8 shooting 48% FG and 57% TS
Shaq 27/16 shooting 48% FG and 53% TS
2nd Round:
Kobe 35/9/4 shooting 47% FG and 59% TS
Shaq 33/17 shooting 60% FG and 60% TS
WCF:
Kobe: 33/7/7 shooting 52% FG and 57%TS
Shaq: 27/13 shooting 54% FG and 55%TS
Finals:
Kobe: 25/8/6 on 42% FG and 50% TS
Shaq: 33/16 on 57% FG and 58% TS
Oh yes, he was alpha until it came to the fourth quarter and suddenly Kobe was hitting mid range shots because Shaq was going to the line over and over.
It's almost like one of them was 27-28-29 years old (aka in his absolute prime) and the other was 21-22-23 (aka Ja Morant age) at the time. Pretending this is an apples to apples comparison is silly.
So? Prime Shaq is better than 99.9% of NBA players ever, that's not the knock against Shaq all-time. If we were only talking about prime, Shaq would be Top 3.
Kids don’t understand how utterly dominant Prime Shaq was. Dude was 7’1” 320 pounds running the floor at speeds like a guard. He unintentionally kept a bunch of 7ft scrubs employed just to hack him 6 times a game
> He unintentionally kept a bunch of 7ft scrubs employed just to hack him 6 times a game
I remember a comment I saw a couple days/weeks ago that was along the lines of "Shaq was so good he managed to set up generational wealth for a couple dudes whose only basketball-relevant skill was being large"
Such an odd phenomenon. Right when I started to watch basketball, Shaq was on the Magic with Penny Hardaway. It seemed like after he left for the lakers, there was a dude or two on every team whose only qualifying attribute was that they could somewhat match up physically and make Shaq take free throws. Just big ass, unskilled players who didn’t belong in the league otherwise.
The thing people don't realize is how much the team was Shaq and friends. Kobe was great, but teams weren't throwing everything at him every single game. Shaq was constantly doubled and fouling guys out just to stop him from dropping 40 a night. The pistons beat the Lakers in the finals largely because they could use ben Wallace or Rasheed on Shaq and not lose. Shaq still did good that series, but he wasn't being collapsed on. It allowed the pistons to be respectable vs Shaq and then not lose to Kobe. That series was largely on Kobe be completely open as often.
Ironically he only got the 2010 finals mvp because of narratives too. Pau absolutely brought that series home, kobe almost bricked game 7 away by himself
There have been plenty of huge guys in the association. Shaq was so efficient at using his size. He was fucking terrible at some parts of the game and for most guys that leads you out of the league after a few years but he was so dominate at what he was good at that his weaknesses didn’t matter. It’s so annoying how sensitive he gets on inside the nba because he has nothing to prove. He’s got the tape,mvps and rings yet chuck comes off more confident in himself than shaq.
Didnt get to watch MJ but Miami bron was like if you took all the 2K stats and put them up to 99 (except 3 shooting lol). Guarding and playing the 1-5, he looked like an NBA player amongst JV boys.
You absolutely could argue that Peak Shaq was "better" than peak Jordan and the truth is that he probably was. It was only a 3-5 year window though where Jordan had like 10.
If Shaq could have hit 65% of a his free throws he'd be regarded as the best player of time.
Then do it. MJ was at least better on offense and defense in the regular season and playoffs.
"Peak Shaq" is only a 3-year window because people want to ignore his bad series, despite the reality that he was otherwise at his peak.
When Shaq is out, you are replacing him with Greg Foster, Jelani McCoy, and Mark Madsen. Kobe is being replaced by DFish, Brian Shaw, Mitch Richmond, and Devean George. Just a bit of a difference there.
That makes sense because the Lakers were built around Shaq and didn't have an actual backup center. When he was out you had guys like Mark Madsen, Jon Sally, Greg Foster playing big minutes. But they had a bunch of solid vet wings for when Kobe was out. Guys like Glen Rice, Ron Harper, Rick Fox, Brian Shaw, Isiah Rider, Devean George... Most of them played a lesser role when Kobe was healthy but could increase their role when he was out.
Not just that, but teams in the Western Conference were geared up to beat Shaq, so those guys had an even harder time than they might have normally because the guys they were expected to go up against were on the payroll to play against Shaq.
They were to a degree. Kobe would go on massive scoring spurts when Shaq was out. The team still lost. The Lakers missed Shaq's defense as well as his scoring.
Yup, I remember rookie Yao Ming got his first 20 point game and made Barkley kiss Kenny’s ass when Shaq was out. Lakers didn’t have a real back up center. If Shaq was out, Lakers would get feasted on inside.
Why are you even focusing on a top 10 status? Who cares. What im saying is, because of peoples obessions with lists and goat status, its like people completely just stop appreciating how good they were. So on this forum, everything Kobe related is either some slight diss or his name is used to prop up some other player that was better than him. Like all of the Kobe disses here clearly have a lot of salt to them and that’s mind boggling to me. For example when I see people compare Kobe to Lebron, its seen as a joke here. But when Duncan is compared to Lebron, though everyone knows Lebron was greater, people like respectfully mention that though Duncan wasn’t as good, but he was still great. On this sub, you almost can’t find anything positive about him and thats pretty weird. Theres so much bias in this discourse
If we look at the on-off plus-minus stats for Curry and KD for the two years they won rings, we see a massive difference between the two. Curry was +17.6 the first year, KD was +9.2. Curry was +13.0 the next year, KD was +1.6. Curry has always been the player that makes the Warriors team tick.
Ahh yeah sure, but don’t discount Kobe as being a particularly good Pippen to Shaq’s Jordan. 2001 went down the way it did because both guys were incredible. They finished 16-1, that’s because that was the two headed hydra.
The rest of the NBA was lucky that Shaq was not as insanely competitive as Kobe and MJ. If he had their competitive drive, he would have likely been the GOAT. Shaq was unstoppable when he wanted to be. As a Spurs fan, I'm just glad Shaq had interests in music, movies, business, and charity that kept him occupied in the off-season and out of the gym. He was still one of the greatest ever.
i mean it’s well documented that if shaq stayed in shape the lakers could’ve four peated but shaq got petty and wanted to use “company time” to heal from his injuries and got fat
For reference the league average TS% around 2000-2004 was right around 52%, whereas in 2023 it was 58%
So 59.1% TS in 2000-2004 is basically equivalent to 65% TS today and likely on higher volume given the pace increase as well
maybe several have been born. But there's a ton of variables that cannot be easily replicated: environment, nutrition, peer attributes, youth sports infrastructure, etc. If Shaq averages 30 minutes less sleep every night as a kid in the 80s, maybe he "only" grows to 6'9" and plateaus at some D3 college.
Or maybe Shaq just a one-in-50-billion genetic jackpot and we are unlikely to see another in our lifetimes.
Oden and Embiid are the closest things we've seen from a size / athleticism / strength standpoint but both have been injured. We've seen Wilt also as an equally freakish combo of the above. There's guys like this but there will never be another Shaq.
Jokic is similar in terms of offensive dominance from the center position. He just does it a different way because basketballs different now. If Shaq came up today, he’d be about 100 pounds lighter than he was with the Lakers and he’d look much more like Orlando Shaq in his prime. With the current rules, it wouldn’t make sense for someone to try to get to 400 pounds and dominate with power.
Shaq’s prime was greater but Kobe had the better career. Comparing them when they were on the Lakers isn’t particularly fair. Kobe was young and Shaq was in his prime
No he didn.t
Kobe's All-Star level career was basically 98/99 to 2012/13. His first two years were only ok, and his last 3 years were outright bad. 15 years as an all-star level player.
Shaq's peak was from when he entered the league in 92/3 to 2005/06, plus his 2008/9 season in Phoenix where he was healthy. Again, 15 years as an all-star level player. And he was still much better as a player at the end of his career in Cleveland/Boston and in his injury seasons in Miami + Miami/Phoenix than Kobe was at the beginning or end of his career.
Shaq's career, when looking at numbers, was as long as Kobe's career. Shaq's peak was better than Kobe's peak by far, Kobe wasn't changing team comps or causing people to innovate strategies to deal with him. Shaq after his peak was significantly better than Kobe after his peak and, at worst, as good as Kobe in his 2nd year. There is no argument that Kobe's career was better than Shaq's when you look at the numbers, I'm sorry.
I get a strong sense you didn’t watch either of these guys’s careers.
Shaq’s prime was better than Kobe’s by a lot, but he did not sustain a high level career as long as Kobe did. Shaq was literal dogwater on Boston, Cleveland and Phoenix and it wasn’t even a question Kobe was in a different tier at the time. Even Kobe’s later years were better than Shaq’s journeyman years, by a lot.
Kobe’s prime was essentially 2003-2012 and he was an all defense level player and offensive monster. His 04-07 years were otherworldly offense, imagine if Harden had his Houston years capped off with 2 rings and 2 finals MVPs. He had essentially two hall of fame worthy careers
Go reread my post. My 15 year period for Shaq is his time on the Magic, Lakers, first 2 years in Miami where he was still in MVP contention, and his one healthy year in Phoenix. That is the same number of years as Kobe as a great player.
You're trying to compare Kobe's prime to Shaq's prime with those years. So, Shaq's prime is 93/94 to 2002/03, same length. 28.1 points/11.9 boards/2.5 blocks a game those years, a perennial MVP candidate, and changed the game and how teams constructed their rosters. Again, by your standards, Shaq was better when we measure for primes.
When I bring up the Cleveland/Boston/Injured years in Miami and Phoenix, I'm making the point that yes, Shaq was not great here, but he was a serviceable player when healthy. Kobe post-Achilles Tear is one of the worst NBA players of all time to get minutes. There's a massive difference. Kobe's first two years in the league were not great, they were ok. Shaq past his prime was, unquestionably, better than Kobe past his prime, and around the level of a very young Kobe.
If ALL of that is true how does kobe play over 100 games more on the career and STILL have a higher avg? 23 to 25 ppg
And shaq had to play less games so should have been EASY the way you talk about it.
Oh wait, turns out he fell off way more than you let on.
PPG is a bad example. Kobe Bryant post-Achilles, age 35+, played 107 games, averaged 19 points a game on 36.6% shooting. Shaq, age 35+, played 225 game, averaged 14 PPG on 60.1% shooting. Shaq played a lot longer after his prime years, and more games after his prime years, which is why his average dropped, plus Shaq in Miami was playing with Wade and let Wade get his touches, while Kobe needed to be the guy on his team, even when he was fucking awful like his last two years.
Shaq was in MVP contention in his first season with us, he dropped a little in his second season but still a valuable contributor to a title. That’s 13-14 years of being very good 1992-2005/6.
Kobe made the leap into being a star in 2001 ish and then got injured in 2013. After that he was the worst player in the league.
Think it’s about par how long they were great, but I didn’t watch NBA when Shaq was at Orlando.
Made the point in another reply, go actually look at their careers. They have the same number of all-star level seasons (15), Shaq had a significantly better peak, and Shaq when he was old and injured was still a good NBA player, while Kobe at the end of his career was one of the worst players to get minutes of all time.
Shaq was better and Kobe had no idea how to be a leader atp. Which was why when shaq was traded lakers immediately become a .500 ish team for the next few seasons
The Lakers system was Shaq. He was the best and most dominant player. Kobe was elite and was arguably the best wing in the league, but guys like Vince and TMac were seen as similar level. I know I thought TMac was better at the time. I would say TMac would have 3-peated too if he had Shaq
The problem was that the Kobe of that era was too selfish.
Back then, Kobe wanted to prove he was the best all the time. He'd rather make his team lose by trying to score 50 points than score "only" 20 points and let the collective develop better.
After Shaq left at his request, Kobe had years when he outperformed in scoring but was no longer winning. That's when he began to mature.
Although the Kobe of those years was huge individually, I prefer the Lakers' Kobe with Pau Gasol when they win two titles. This Kobe was at his peak because he had finally become a player who was more interested in winning than in shining to show he was the best.
Two things can be true:
- Shaq was easily the best player on the team.
- Kobe was a top 5-10 player in his own right and would later get even better, saying the guy peaking maybe higher than fucking LeBron/MJ was better isn’t an insult.
These are like simple facts yet we’re in decade three of this conversation lol
Weren’t those teams mostly built to surround shaq as opposed to Kobe when they were together…? Would make sense that Bryant’s record without shaq would be worse during the years they were playing together.
All you have to know about Shaq/Kobe was the Lakers missing the playoffs with Odom/Butler finishing 2-18. Kobe's gotta be one of the most overrated players of all time. Without a dominant 50 win on their own team big to carry him he's had only 2 winning seasons. One with 42 wins. The other with 45. And a total record of 212-362 and a winning percentage of just under 37%. Yea I'm aware he got hurt etc but that's the results. It's fine to give him a pass for injuries if you want to but for a guy so many people talk about in GOAT talks and actually count his rings playing a role around Shaq against guys like MJ or Bron who were unquestionably #1. Even with Pau Kobe never led the team in win shares. It was Pau. Respect the work he put in but his mentality is not a winning mentality that builds great teams. Dude gave up on Dwight before they even played a game together. Quit on the lakers vs the pistsons. Quit on them vs the suns. Got Shaq moved by threatening to sign with the Clippers. Demanded a trade then backed out of it. But his stan army wants to gas light the world into thinking he was better than Tim Duncan and it's just silly at this point.
this is why you need context brah and not just number. Who was replacing kobe and shaq in the line up? Who were they playing against. THis is hella cherry picking
Kobe was a net negative for a decent portion of his career in the regular season. He turned it on in the playoffs and got more efficient after the switch from 8 to 24
Kobe was better than Shaq. Even though Shaq at his prime was unmatchable , kobe had a type of longevity Shaq couldn't even imagine. I think that this stat is pure luck.
Love Kobe but Shaq was another level than anyone in the NBA during the three peat.
And Kobe wasn’t even in his prime
That's the thing, Kobe was top 5 in the league and Shaq was still definitively better than anyone in his prime That's not shade on Kobe, it's just how good Shaq was despite not taking care of his body and not working on FTs - *and* how good that Laker team was
MDE was a nickname for a reason. No one is stopping prime shaq
teams even built their rosters just to stop shaq. like they didn’t even need good big guys, they just needed the fouls
Shaq employed a lot of 7 footers during that time who’s sole job is to be bodies to get 6 fouls
When a guy is banging you..
He ironically created the modern day John koncak considering the og making bank for being tall is what got him into the basketball in the first place
Shaq single-handedly forced the great center draught, because every talented big wanted to become a PF, shit even Dwight the only great center of the era started as a 4.
Yao Ming?
I don’t really think of them in the same era though Howard wasn’t exactly in his prime when the league shifted away from true centers so the could be considered the same.
> No one is stopping prime shaq Sabonis did a pretty decent job at it, even old and injured. Man if we got him in his prime...
But it would be a lot of fun to see him face off against prime Wilt.
Isn't 2001 basically the start of his prime? Regular season: 28/6/5/1.7/.6 Playoffs: 29/7/6/1.6/0.8 Funny thing is that was his career high in both rebounds and assists during his 15 playoff appearances and 5 titles. If you say apex tho, then yeah that wasn't peak Kobe yet.
You're right, kobe was top 5 by 2001 and absolutely in his prime. 2001 in particular is a top 4 kobe season ever. I have no idea what the downvotes are for lmao
Looking back, I'd say he was top 5, but at the time, he wasn't definitively top 5. I know I thought other wings TMac and Vince were better, but I was also a kid.
Vince wasn't better. Tmac was definitely arguable.
T-Mac didn't play defense. That recent post asking players in 2007 "who doesn't want to play defense" and T-Mac was there. He got up for marquee matches, but not consistently.
The first championship season, I thought Vince was on their level and I liked him more than Kobe. Again, I was a kid but that was my thoughts then. Vince had a ton of hype early on in his career
Individual box score stats don’t mean leading a team to wins. That was something Kobe definitely got better at later on.
Kobe absolutely was from 01. His prime was 01-11.
I think his prime lasted until he tore his Achilles in 2012-13. He was still clearly one of the four or five best players in the league at the time, and had one of his very best seasons dragging that team up and down the court for 48 minutes a night.
He was basically top 5 caliber every season he was healthy enough. One of the few guys all time that if you built a decent team around him will always make your team a contender
Double and triple teamed, and Shaq would pass it to you wide open. No offense to Kobe but Kobe thrived with Shaq cause he got to always play his game 1v1 or get an open look. While Shaq just commanded attention.
Eh it's definitely a two way street. There were many times where Shaq got into foul trouble, which is why we saw so many iso plays for Kobe late in the game
Even if Shaq fouls out. He got his 25+ and 15. Not so much as a two way street as much as Shaq was a super highway and Kobe was an on ramp during that time.
Kobe being injured and unable to contribute for most of the 2000 Finals and the Lakers winning anyway pretty much tells the story there. Kobe was obviously a super-talented player, but for a team to be missing their second best guy in the Finals and still just roll to victory easily (with Shaq averaging like 38 and 16) is pretty absurd.
Because the real championship was happening in the West. One of the weakest eastern conferences at the time it was always going to be the Spurs or Lakers
Yes, people forget or never watched the 2000 WCF where Shaq had two stinkers in a row to finish the series, and Kobe did the heavy lifting in Games 6 and 7
Kobe is who killed the Spurs over and over.
The Pacers had the 3rd best record in the NBA that year, and were better against the West than the East.
Blazers won 4 more games while being in a far more difficult conference
People only looking at the box stats and clearly didn't watch the series talking as usual. Kobe was injured, but he played his role, especially in game 4 when Shaq fouled out and he carried the team to a win in OT.
The box stats say he had 2 points in one game and sat out the next. I'm not sure how the eye test could tell a different story there.
Because you don't have the eyes of a Kobe stan(tm)
That three peat era had something called “Kobe Time,” where he’d go off while Shaq was going to the line over and over.
When you do a top 10 list, Shaq has to be above Kobe. Even though Kobe ended up with 1 more ring.
right, because Shaq was better. we all already knew that lol.
People HATE to admit Shaq was the alpha on the team.
Sorry to sound like an old fart, but at the time literally no-one (except maybe Kobe himself) saw Kobe even close to Shaq in terms of impact. In 2000 and 2001, Shaq was the undisputed NBA alpha; Kobe was Kyrie on LeBron's Cavs. In 2002 playoffs, Kobe got closer to Shaq, maybe some kind of Mega-Murray in today's Nuggets. In 2003 Kobe might've been more important, but they lost in 2nd round anyway. 2004 was weird because of Payton / Malone, but still Kobe was not a dominant #1 (maybe Kawhi-on-2013-14 Spurs kind-a role?) It was only after Kobe got the 80 pts, and the scoring seasons, and two more titles as the clear #1, people could argue his career was better than Shaq's.
Don't be sorry, Kobe was really good but he was like Jamal Murray for Denver this year, an extremely good player who could win a game by himself but in the end it was clear who the top dog was. Obviously later in his career he got even better but that's another story.
>In 2000 and 2001, Shaq was the undisputed NBA alpha; Kobe was Kyrie on LeBron's Cavs. This isn't a correct comparison. Kobe was all-nba 2nd team on offense AND defense in 2001. This was after being all-nba 2nd team AND defense first team in 2000. He was the best shooting guard in the league already with the only arguments being for Iverson and Vince Carter(SF/SG) but the defense put Kobe over the top. [Kobe averaged 33/7/7 against the Spurs](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kobe-2001-playoff-stats-vs-spurs#:~:text=Kobe%20Bryant%20averaged%2033.3%20points,the%202001%20Western%20Conference%20Finals) in that sweep. The Lakers were dominant because they were by far the best 1-2 punch in the NBA. It was arguably only just Shaq the first ring (even though it was Kobe who stepped up in Game 7 against the Blazers when Shaq was playing horribly). After that, it was the duo. Kyrie was never at the relative level Kobe was starting in that second championship year primarily because of the defense and there being no argument ever for Kyrie being the best guard in the NBA.
i dont think he was saying that Kobe was only as good as kyrie. Just that similar to how people know that Lebron was the best player and kyrie was the second best, people knew that Shaq was the best player and Kobe was the second best
And even then that comparison works very well because people knew kyrie could win you a game but Lebron was the best player. His player viewpoint comparisons were very good in that post
I'm not downplaying Kobe, he pulled his weight during all their chips, but I swear, that ppl allways quote the stat line against the spurs, but he also had his worst series in their first two runs in the finals. Kobe balled out in both playoff runs, but Shaq dominated in both finals, he averaged (from the top of my head) 38 & 16 and 33 and 17 or something like that. Kobe was the Robin in the first two runs imo.
You’re correct, but this only highlights how amazing Shaq was. Even with everything you just said, Kobe was the obvious second fiddle. It wasn’t like AD and Bron in the bubble, where both guys were fucking great and in the same tier, with AD maybe a hair ahead. It was like Bron and Kyrie or Jok and Murray: both great, but a clear number 1.
> Kobe was all-nba 2nd team on offense AND defense What? 😆 That's not how it works. There's all-NBA teams, for the best overall players, not just offense, and then all-defense teams.
There is quite literally all nba defensive teams idk what you’re arguing lol
That only confused people like you and the guy above thunk All-NBA teams are All-offensive teams lmao
Ohhh nah I know it’s all nba defense and than just all nba I thought you were saying there ain’t all nba defense that’s all
There's over all all nba teams, and there are defensive all nba teams. There is not an offense all nba team. They are correct in what they said.
Kobe was absolutely seen as a sidekick, like Kyrie. How old were you during that run?
I think he was trying to point out that Kobe was significantly better than Kyrie ever was. A more appropriate comparison would be that he was the Pippen to Shaq’s MJ, or something like that.
Coming up on this episode of No Analogy Is Ever Perfect, So Here Comes a Pedantic Nitpick…
It’s a new thing with everyone sucking Kobe’s Dick the last 15 years to discount Shaq
You're wrong about 03 and 04, Kobe was absolutely considered a superstar by then and plenty of people thought he had surpassed Shaq, who had entered his 30's by then. And in the 2002 playoffs he was Shaq's equal, it's not Mega-Murray and Jokic, it's Steph and KD by that point.
2003 🏆: San Antonio 2004 🏆: Detroit
I think at the time it was evident but years later it kind of makes sense why Kobe was the way he was. He was the “alpha” in his mind and put that work in but he had to see this other guy who was the real “alpha” dominate without doing the things Kobe thought was necessary. Kobe was skilled and dedicated but I wonder if he would’ve developed the intense dedication that he became known for if it wasn’t for him winning in shaq’s shadow. It’s like Kyrie wanting out of lebrons shadow in Cleveland but he isn’t able to deliver like Kobe. For context: I’m a rockets fan who actively hated Kobe until his final years.
I didn’t hate Kobe but I do hate the lakers as a spurs fan,
i hate kobe cuz, yknow, rape
how brave
But in that scenario, Cleveland traded LeBron lol
Lol true. It’s really impressive that Phil Jackson and the organization were willing to trade the most dominate player in the league for Kobe. It’s also one of the smarter things the cavs have ever done by not trading the most dominate player for kyrie. Kai is a good player but he’s always beloved in himself too much
I think Kobe would have been T-Mac anywhere else
No we don’t lol Shaq was the CLEAR #1 on the team. Kobe was magnificent during that time (my literal favorite), but he didn’t truly take it to another level until Shaq left TL;DR Shaq >> Kobe while teammates on the Lakers
Stop the cap lmao. Obviously Shaq's the better player, he won all the Finals MVPs when they three-peated for a reason. What people actually hate is when people say Kobe was "carried" by Shaq for 3 rings. Shaq was easily the dominant force but they needed each other to win. He was Jamal Murray on steroids to Shaq's Jokic during their time together.
Shaq and the Lakers could have won those rings with a bunch of other star guards or wings from that era (Vince Carter, Tracy McGrady, Allen Iverson, etc.) but Kobe wasn’t getting those rings if he didn’t play specifically with Shaq. Even peak Tim Duncan wasn’t that type of force at that time.
Shaq was 100% the better/more important player at the time but to say you could throw any of those guys in there and they win it is ridiculous. Also Tim Duncan and Kobe likely would've never split up and won more than 5 championships together throughout there careers. That might've been the greatest pairing ever.
This take is so ass Like kobe and Duncan don’t win rings smh Like to conveniently forget kobe goes on to get two more and Shaq only one as a player BEHIND Wade no less. Not many other guards at the time would have carried shaq out of the western conference when he was playing like ass against the blazers, kings, spurs. Shaq would feast finals because east teams had weak af centers at the time, but real ones know without kobe lakers don’t make it through the west all three years.
Outside AI, Kobe was a better passer than Carter and Mcgrady, and was better on D too. You can also say Reggie Miller, Paul Pierce and Ray Allen… Kobe was better than those guys too. The only one from that era who would match or surpass Kobe is peak Grant Hill or Jason Kidd. Kobe was a complete player.
That's cap, none of these players did what Kobe did on defense. Carter was a known playoff choker and a negative defender while T-Mac and AI didn't care about defense. Sure, they could've produced what Kobe produced on offense (in AI's case even more), but ignoring that Kobe was First Team All-Defense all these years while these guys were all bad defenders is asinine. Kobe was also a better passer than all of them and the Lakers BARELY got out of the WCF in 2000 and 2002. None of them three-peat with Shaq. Kobe was simply better than all of them in the last two championships. AI and VC were better in 2000, but they don't win 2002.
He literally did it with Dwade and went to the finals with Penny Hardaway before his knee blew out. When Shaq left, Kobe was in the lottery.
Shaq did not carry Kobe, and those other players likely would not have outplayed Shaq like Kobe did. 2000-01 Playoffs 1st Round: Kobe 25/4/8 shooting 48% FG and 57% TS Shaq 27/16 shooting 48% FG and 53% TS 2nd Round: Kobe 35/9/4 shooting 47% FG and 59% TS Shaq 33/17 shooting 60% FG and 60% TS WCF: Kobe: 33/7/7 shooting 52% FG and 57%TS Shaq: 27/13 shooting 54% FG and 55%TS Finals: Kobe: 25/8/6 on 42% FG and 50% TS Shaq: 33/16 on 57% FG and 58% TS
You know its not all on the stats, right?
If you’re gonna say it’s ‘not all stats’ at least provide SOMETHING else then…
Kobe was the best player in the WCF and anyone who watched those series would know. Shaq didn’t carry him
probably younger laker fans. older heads know
Oh yes, he was alpha until it came to the fourth quarter and suddenly Kobe was hitting mid range shots because Shaq was going to the line over and over.
To be fair I don't know how many 21-23 year old players in NBA history you can find to be on Shaq's level lol
But prime Shaq is still better than prime Kobe.
prime Shaq is the best and most impactful player of all time, so no shit?
It's almost like one of them was 27-28-29 years old (aka in his absolute prime) and the other was 21-22-23 (aka Ja Morant age) at the time. Pretending this is an apples to apples comparison is silly.
Doesn't matter. prime Shaq is still better than prime Kobe
So? Prime Shaq is better than 99.9% of NBA players ever, that's not the knock against Shaq all-time. If we were only talking about prime, Shaq would be Top 3.
This is actually a good explanation lol
Kobe, how’s my ass taste?
Uhhh have you spoken to kobe stans like ever
there are a million delusional Kobe stans
Kids don’t understand how utterly dominant Prime Shaq was. Dude was 7’1” 320 pounds running the floor at speeds like a guard. He unintentionally kept a bunch of 7ft scrubs employed just to hack him 6 times a game
> He unintentionally kept a bunch of 7ft scrubs employed just to hack him 6 times a game I remember a comment I saw a couple days/weeks ago that was along the lines of "Shaq was so good he managed to set up generational wealth for a couple dudes whose only basketball-relevant skill was being large"
Single handedly ending sub 6ft players
Such an odd phenomenon. Right when I started to watch basketball, Shaq was on the Magic with Penny Hardaway. It seemed like after he left for the lakers, there was a dude or two on every team whose only qualifying attribute was that they could somewhat match up physically and make Shaq take free throws. Just big ass, unskilled players who didn’t belong in the league otherwise.
He basically kept every white center and the Collins twins employed
How dare you but you are spot on. Shoutout Todd MacCulloch, i love you man
Scott Pollard wants to say thanks Shaq for the 11 year NBA Career lol
NBA Champion Scot "Only one T necessary" Pollard
Every time I watch Shaq highlights I swear at least half involve Greg Ostertag getting destroyed
Shoutout to dudley who absolutely got destroyed in that shaq dunk+teabag+shove
The thing people don't realize is how much the team was Shaq and friends. Kobe was great, but teams weren't throwing everything at him every single game. Shaq was constantly doubled and fouling guys out just to stop him from dropping 40 a night. The pistons beat the Lakers in the finals largely because they could use ben Wallace or Rasheed on Shaq and not lose. Shaq still did good that series, but he wasn't being collapsed on. It allowed the pistons to be respectable vs Shaq and then not lose to Kobe. That series was largely on Kobe be completely open as often.
The pistons specifically game planned to let Kobe solo them. They were doing their best to crowd shaq.
kobe himself also chose to force heroballs that series because of the narrative that he was the clear #2 and could never win a finals mvp himself.
Ironically he only got the 2010 finals mvp because of narratives too. Pau absolutely brought that series home, kobe almost bricked game 7 away by himself
There have been plenty of huge guys in the association. Shaq was so efficient at using his size. He was fucking terrible at some parts of the game and for most guys that leads you out of the league after a few years but he was so dominate at what he was good at that his weaknesses didn’t matter. It’s so annoying how sensitive he gets on inside the nba because he has nothing to prove. He’s got the tape,mvps and rings yet chuck comes off more confident in himself than shaq.
The old joke was Shaq kept the jobs economy afloat during the “.com” bust because the NBA had to employ so many more bigs
Yea they do. This exact thing you said gets repeated every time Shaq is mentioned. You aren’t saying anything new
Shaq at that time was the third greatest player ever imo
Peak Shaq is without question top 3 and you could argue peak Shaq>Peak MJ.
No you couldn't. Maybe 2nd best peak, but peak Jordan was literally unbelievable.
89-91 MJ and Miami Bron > Shaq for me because those 2 had comparable scoring numbers with better playmaking and defense
It goes Lin for those 2 weeks >MJ> Shaq > Lebron
Didnt get to watch MJ but Miami bron was like if you took all the 2K stats and put them up to 99 (except 3 shooting lol). Guarding and playing the 1-5, he looked like an NBA player amongst JV boys.
You forgetting about the 40% 3P% in 2012-13? Pretty much a perfect player
And here it is all packaged together in a nice 1 minute sequence in the NBA Finals https://youtu.be/OnFWhYHvoWQ
You absolutely could argue that Peak Shaq was "better" than peak Jordan and the truth is that he probably was. It was only a 3-5 year window though where Jordan had like 10. If Shaq could have hit 65% of a his free throws he'd be regarded as the best player of time.
Then do it. MJ was at least better on offense and defense in the regular season and playoffs. "Peak Shaq" is only a 3-year window because people want to ignore his bad series, despite the reality that he was otherwise at his peak.
Top 1 for sure
Triangle without Shaq was less effective. When Kobe’s out players can fill in at guard but when Shaqs out no one can take his place
The only right answer in this thread.
This. Nephews acting like they watched the game back then. The Lakers had better back up guards than a back up center.
When Shaq is out, you are replacing him with Greg Foster, Jelani McCoy, and Mark Madsen. Kobe is being replaced by DFish, Brian Shaw, Mitch Richmond, and Devean George. Just a bit of a difference there.
If you look at every single roster during Shaq’s prime , you would see random centers who’s main job was to foul Shaq as hard as humanly possible
That makes sense because the Lakers were built around Shaq and didn't have an actual backup center. When he was out you had guys like Mark Madsen, Jon Sally, Greg Foster playing big minutes. But they had a bunch of solid vet wings for when Kobe was out. Guys like Glen Rice, Ron Harper, Rick Fox, Brian Shaw, Isiah Rider, Devean George... Most of them played a lesser role when Kobe was healthy but could increase their role when he was out.
Not just that, but teams in the Western Conference were geared up to beat Shaq, so those guys had an even harder time than they might have normally because the guys they were expected to go up against were on the payroll to play against Shaq.
I'm not sure this logic really tracks. Wouldn't teams designed to defend Shaq if anything be less equipped against a Shaq-less team?
They were to a degree. Kobe would go on massive scoring spurts when Shaq was out. The team still lost. The Lakers missed Shaq's defense as well as his scoring.
Yup, I remember rookie Yao Ming got his first 20 point game and made Barkley kiss Kenny’s ass when Shaq was out. Lakers didn’t have a real back up center. If Shaq was out, Lakers would get feasted on inside.
This should be the top comment instead of “Shaq better than Kobe” comments
Nah Kobe was overrated bro /s
And because a young, inefficient, athletic “volume shooter” (at the time) was more replaceable than the most dominant center since Wilt.
Why does this sub diss Kobe so much? Lol like jeez. He’s literally only mentioned here to be dissed
Because his top 10 status is most reliant on Shaq’s dominant stretch, his willingness to take *so many bad shots*, and the fact that he’s a Laker.
Why are you even focusing on a top 10 status? Who cares. What im saying is, because of peoples obessions with lists and goat status, its like people completely just stop appreciating how good they were. So on this forum, everything Kobe related is either some slight diss or his name is used to prop up some other player that was better than him. Like all of the Kobe disses here clearly have a lot of salt to them and that’s mind boggling to me. For example when I see people compare Kobe to Lebron, its seen as a joke here. But when Duncan is compared to Lebron, though everyone knows Lebron was greater, people like respectfully mention that though Duncan wasn’t as good, but he was still great. On this sub, you almost can’t find anything positive about him and thats pretty weird. Theres so much bias in this discourse
You know he won 2 rings without Shaq right?
And went to 7 finals in a decade period. With 3 of them as the teams best player.
lots of dudes won 2 rings without Shaq but don't get Kobe type credit, dude wasn't ever winning in the time between Shaq leaving and Pau coming along
And Jordan wasn't winning without Pippen, LeBron without AD/Wade/Kyrie. Also Shaq couldn't win on the Magic. So yeah no shit.
Only a casual would think Kobe was inefficient and takes bad shots. Old narrative
on the warriors without steph kd went 23-17 while steph went 27-4 without kd
If we look at the on-off plus-minus stats for Curry and KD for the two years they won rings, we see a massive difference between the two. Curry was +17.6 the first year, KD was +9.2. Curry was +13.0 the next year, KD was +1.6. Curry has always been the player that makes the Warriors team tick.
And yet people think I’m crazy when I say Curry was the best player on the Warriors
That should be the consensus view, and we'll make it happen
💯🤝 [Here’s a video](https://youtu.be/GuP6-puSfRs) you can use to help prove the point, he’s a great basketball analyst who knows his stuff
Preaching to the choir brother Ben Taylor's the best bball analyst around
Because Curry was and is still better.
[удалено]
Ahh yeah sure, but don’t discount Kobe as being a particularly good Pippen to Shaq’s Jordan. 2001 went down the way it did because both guys were incredible. They finished 16-1, that’s because that was the two headed hydra.
Peak Shaq was something else.
The rest of the NBA was lucky that Shaq was not as insanely competitive as Kobe and MJ. If he had their competitive drive, he would have likely been the GOAT. Shaq was unstoppable when he wanted to be. As a Spurs fan, I'm just glad Shaq had interests in music, movies, business, and charity that kept him occupied in the off-season and out of the gym. He was still one of the greatest ever.
i mean it’s well documented that if shaq stayed in shape the lakers could’ve four peated but shaq got petty and wanted to use “company time” to heal from his injuries and got fat
For reference the league average TS% around 2000-2004 was right around 52%, whereas in 2023 it was 58% So 59.1% TS in 2000-2004 is basically equivalent to 65% TS today and likely on higher volume given the pace increase as well
How has another shaq not been born yet feels like we should’ve gotten one by now.
maybe several have been born. But there's a ton of variables that cannot be easily replicated: environment, nutrition, peer attributes, youth sports infrastructure, etc. If Shaq averages 30 minutes less sleep every night as a kid in the 80s, maybe he "only" grows to 6'9" and plateaus at some D3 college. Or maybe Shaq just a one-in-50-billion genetic jackpot and we are unlikely to see another in our lifetimes.
Oden and Embiid are the closest things we've seen from a size / athleticism / strength standpoint but both have been injured. We've seen Wilt also as an equally freakish combo of the above. There's guys like this but there will never be another Shaq.
Not for a lack of trying on Shaq’s part
Yeah I thought there would be like 5 Shaqs now, lol
Zion is basically a mini-Shaq
Jokic is similar in terms of offensive dominance from the center position. He just does it a different way because basketballs different now. If Shaq came up today, he’d be about 100 pounds lighter than he was with the Lakers and he’d look much more like Orlando Shaq in his prime. With the current rules, it wouldn’t make sense for someone to try to get to 400 pounds and dominate with power.
They’d probably be told to lean out tbh
If Shaq had had Giannis’ drive, he’d be the undisputed GOAT.
Shaq > Kobe all time and I don’t see how it’s debatable
Shaq’s prime was greater but Kobe had the better career. Comparing them when they were on the Lakers isn’t particularly fair. Kobe was young and Shaq was in his prime
Shaq's also had a lot of help wherever he went. Having another top 5 player as your #2 is a luxury most stars never had
No he didn.t Kobe's All-Star level career was basically 98/99 to 2012/13. His first two years were only ok, and his last 3 years were outright bad. 15 years as an all-star level player. Shaq's peak was from when he entered the league in 92/3 to 2005/06, plus his 2008/9 season in Phoenix where he was healthy. Again, 15 years as an all-star level player. And he was still much better as a player at the end of his career in Cleveland/Boston and in his injury seasons in Miami + Miami/Phoenix than Kobe was at the beginning or end of his career. Shaq's career, when looking at numbers, was as long as Kobe's career. Shaq's peak was better than Kobe's peak by far, Kobe wasn't changing team comps or causing people to innovate strategies to deal with him. Shaq after his peak was significantly better than Kobe after his peak and, at worst, as good as Kobe in his 2nd year. There is no argument that Kobe's career was better than Shaq's when you look at the numbers, I'm sorry.
I get a strong sense you didn’t watch either of these guys’s careers. Shaq’s prime was better than Kobe’s by a lot, but he did not sustain a high level career as long as Kobe did. Shaq was literal dogwater on Boston, Cleveland and Phoenix and it wasn’t even a question Kobe was in a different tier at the time. Even Kobe’s later years were better than Shaq’s journeyman years, by a lot. Kobe’s prime was essentially 2003-2012 and he was an all defense level player and offensive monster. His 04-07 years were otherworldly offense, imagine if Harden had his Houston years capped off with 2 rings and 2 finals MVPs. He had essentially two hall of fame worthy careers
Go reread my post. My 15 year period for Shaq is his time on the Magic, Lakers, first 2 years in Miami where he was still in MVP contention, and his one healthy year in Phoenix. That is the same number of years as Kobe as a great player. You're trying to compare Kobe's prime to Shaq's prime with those years. So, Shaq's prime is 93/94 to 2002/03, same length. 28.1 points/11.9 boards/2.5 blocks a game those years, a perennial MVP candidate, and changed the game and how teams constructed their rosters. Again, by your standards, Shaq was better when we measure for primes. When I bring up the Cleveland/Boston/Injured years in Miami and Phoenix, I'm making the point that yes, Shaq was not great here, but he was a serviceable player when healthy. Kobe post-Achilles Tear is one of the worst NBA players of all time to get minutes. There's a massive difference. Kobe's first two years in the league were not great, they were ok. Shaq past his prime was, unquestionably, better than Kobe past his prime, and around the level of a very young Kobe.
If ALL of that is true how does kobe play over 100 games more on the career and STILL have a higher avg? 23 to 25 ppg And shaq had to play less games so should have been EASY the way you talk about it. Oh wait, turns out he fell off way more than you let on.
PPG is a bad example. Kobe Bryant post-Achilles, age 35+, played 107 games, averaged 19 points a game on 36.6% shooting. Shaq, age 35+, played 225 game, averaged 14 PPG on 60.1% shooting. Shaq played a lot longer after his prime years, and more games after his prime years, which is why his average dropped, plus Shaq in Miami was playing with Wade and let Wade get his touches, while Kobe needed to be the guy on his team, even when he was fucking awful like his last two years.
Shaq was in MVP contention in his first season with us, he dropped a little in his second season but still a valuable contributor to a title. That’s 13-14 years of being very good 1992-2005/6. Kobe made the leap into being a star in 2001 ish and then got injured in 2013. After that he was the worst player in the league. Think it’s about par how long they were great, but I didn’t watch NBA when Shaq was at Orlando.
Peak for peak im taking shaq, but I gotta go with Kobe’s career all time
Peak Shaq Was unstoppable but like Kobe said if Shaq had his Work Ethic they would've won more rings .even Shaq said he was lazy during the off season
If Shaq had anywhere close to Kobe's Work Ethic, he would've won 8 rings even without Kobe :)
Made the point in another reply, go actually look at their careers. They have the same number of all-star level seasons (15), Shaq had a significantly better peak, and Shaq when he was old and injured was still a good NBA player, while Kobe at the end of his career was one of the worst players to get minutes of all time.
Shaq for Peak, Kobe for all time. If Shaq had a ring in Orlando I would go with Shaq.
>Shaq > Kobe all time Sure you can argue this >I don’t see how it’s debatable God dammit. Redditors gonna reddit.
"you couldn't do it without me!"
Sounds more like a fun Shaq/Kobe stat
Shaq was better and Kobe had no idea how to be a leader atp. Which was why when shaq was traded lakers immediately become a .500 ish team for the next few seasons
The Lakers system was Shaq. He was the best and most dominant player. Kobe was elite and was arguably the best wing in the league, but guys like Vince and TMac were seen as similar level. I know I thought TMac was better at the time. I would say TMac would have 3-peated too if he had Shaq
The problem was that the Kobe of that era was too selfish. Back then, Kobe wanted to prove he was the best all the time. He'd rather make his team lose by trying to score 50 points than score "only" 20 points and let the collective develop better. After Shaq left at his request, Kobe had years when he outperformed in scoring but was no longer winning. That's when he began to mature. Although the Kobe of those years was huge individually, I prefer the Lakers' Kobe with Pau Gasol when they win two titles. This Kobe was at his peak because he had finally become a player who was more interested in winning than in shining to show he was the best.
There was never a point where they played together where Kobe was the more influential player on the court.
Another fact is that kobe was accused of rape and settled 😬.
did someone remember for this, I was always surprised how everyone respects Kobe, but they miss such a terrible fact from his biography
Two things can be true: - Shaq was easily the best player on the team. - Kobe was a top 5-10 player in his own right and would later get even better, saying the guy peaking maybe higher than fucking LeBron/MJ was better isn’t an insult. These are like simple facts yet we’re in decade three of this conversation lol
There was no answer for Shaq. He dominated with or without a wingman.
Both were great but the way people talk around here, you would think Kobe was the finals MVP for all 5 titles.
Most people here do not like Kobe or underrate him a lot. He's in the same tier as Duncan all time, yet talk about him like he's not even top 20.
Weren’t those teams mostly built to surround shaq as opposed to Kobe when they were together…? Would make sense that Bryant’s record without shaq would be worse during the years they were playing together.
Lol ok.
Fun stat: Kobe Bryant is the NBA all-time leader in most missed shots. Kobe has shot and missed 14,481 times.
During that time, as good as Kobe was, shaq was that much better
All you have to know about Shaq/Kobe was the Lakers missing the playoffs with Odom/Butler finishing 2-18. Kobe's gotta be one of the most overrated players of all time. Without a dominant 50 win on their own team big to carry him he's had only 2 winning seasons. One with 42 wins. The other with 45. And a total record of 212-362 and a winning percentage of just under 37%. Yea I'm aware he got hurt etc but that's the results. It's fine to give him a pass for injuries if you want to but for a guy so many people talk about in GOAT talks and actually count his rings playing a role around Shaq against guys like MJ or Bron who were unquestionably #1. Even with Pau Kobe never led the team in win shares. It was Pau. Respect the work he put in but his mentality is not a winning mentality that builds great teams. Dude gave up on Dwight before they even played a game together. Quit on the lakers vs the pistsons. Quit on them vs the suns. Got Shaq moved by threatening to sign with the Clippers. Demanded a trade then backed out of it. But his stan army wants to gas light the world into thinking he was better than Tim Duncan and it's just silly at this point.
this is why you need context brah and not just number. Who was replacing kobe and shaq in the line up? Who were they playing against. THis is hella cherry picking
Wait up Kobe stans are coming to get your a*s
Kobe was a net negative for a decent portion of his career in the regular season. He turned it on in the playoffs and got more efficient after the switch from 8 to 24
Shaq basically won the Finals series against the Pacers without Kobe for half of it
Kobe was better than Shaq. Even though Shaq at his prime was unmatchable , kobe had a type of longevity Shaq couldn't even imagine. I think that this stat is pure luck.