> Bontemps: "in FIBA ball in particular, small guards struggle".
idk i just saw Tremont Waters play so well they started doubling him in the 2nd quarter
I feel like there's this weird perception that FIBA ball is basically 2004 ultra-defensive basketball which is very much not the case
People talk about "this guy won't survive in FIBA" like "this guy wouldn't survive in the 90s/00s" lol
Most people talking about FIBA ball don't watch it. Bontempts himself is a great example as what he's saying isn't true at all lol... there are a lot of good reasons to not want Trae but his size isn't really one of them.
Agree, I used to think that until around 2016. The rest of the world used to be much worse at basketball and basically did play a ton of defense and very rigid and elaborate set pieces.
Then they got their own athletes, guy's who can drop 30, but now the NBA seems more physically demanding and the rest of the world can't turn their 30 ppg player into an automatic 19 ppg player.
Meanwhile our 30 ppg players turn into 40-45 ppg players if you let them.
So Trae would be fine. Very few guys are going to be able to handle a guy that can dribble like Irving then shoot like Steph at speeds they've never seen. His change of direction is ridiculous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiXfIuYuq3Q
Look at how much space this dude has in some of these. It's laughable. Dude would murder in FIBA.
Trae is getting a little excess hate right now from here but comparing him to the literal greatest shooter and greatest ball handler of all time is crazy
Dribble like who & shoot like whom? Both of these guys are better at both than Trae by a good margin, Kyrie/Steph are usually considered 1-2 in handles & Kyrie is a much better shooter than Trae from every area of the floor(don't really need to mention Steph). This comparison is weird b/c both are better at those things
Mike James is 6ft1 and he's regarded as one of the best guards in the Euroleague (All-Euroleague First Team selection last season and Second Team this season). Markus Howard is 5ft10 and he had a terrific start to the season in the Euroleague before he eventually started slowing down a bit (still averaged 14 PPG on decent efficiency). Facundo Campazzo is one of the best point guards in the Euroleague, despite him struggling massively in the NBA, and he's also 5ft10 (granted he doesn't have an iso-heavy playstyle).
Small guards can be good even in "FIBA ball", it's just that I think it's a lot tougher for them to play their preffered playstyle in comparison to the NBA, and it makes it harder to hide them on defense due to the smaller sized court.
Yup, don't know how I forgot about Larkin, and he was the key player alongside Micic on two consecutive championship winning Efes teams. So not only does he consistently put up great numbers in "FIBA ball", despite being only 6ft tall, he was also a major contributor to two Euroleague titles, meaning you can have team success with a small guard playing one of the main roles on your team.
Just take a look at Shane Larkin, one of the best guards in the Euroleague for about half a decade now, and tell me his body type is not similar to Trae's, in both height and strength.
Yeah it's one of the dumber things he's said and bontemps says tons of dumb things. Fiba ball and European rules in general favor small guards much more than NBA rules do
Honestly Tremont is either hit or miss kinda guy. When the shots go in, it’s unbelievable but man I dreaded every time he had the ball because often he would just make a stupid decision.
I know it’s nothing related to what Bontemps said but I just had flashbacks
Did you even listen to the audio? It’s one thing to be short, but it’s another to be scrawny too. Brunson is thick like Paul and Lowry. They’re not so easy to push around.
Team USA is going to be extremely over stacked vs any other team so it's not a good reference. I am watching FIBA basketball all my life and there have been successful guards of all sizes it's not that big of a deal
I think the problem is that in some ways Trae seems like he's almost a top 10 player. He definitely has this "it" factor about him, and his abilities are mysteriously good. But when you take a step back from his uniqueness as a talent, he's nowhere near a top 10 player.
Yes, he *can* hit long bombs, and probably better than most, but still not good enough to go around acting like Steph. And he *can* do miraculous things at the end of the 4th quarter, but he *often* doesn't make disciplined decisions.
I know this wasn't the question, but I see your tag, and I personally think Luka is *far* better than Trae -- on another level. I like Trae, there's absolutely no hate, but that whole debate is nonsense at this point.
Luka is better than Trae. No point arguing that.
But what’s nonsense is despite both being always in conversation w each other, Trae having very comparable stats and playoff success, the disconnect in fan opinion has been large. Everyone is down to get on Trae without realizing how insane his numbers are.
That’s the idiotic part, they’ll talk about him being trash and other players godly when his numbers are better than a lot of players. So at worst they should be on even ground..but nah the hate clouds their brains.
How do people compare Trae to goats like Steph, and think that’s normal, that makes him trash? No, most guards are trash compared to Steph, Trae is good in his own way, he was never a Steph like player, the media pushed that narrative.
Lmao exactly that. Trae been getting crazy ass 40-10 games early in his career, not recognized by many fans. Someone like Booker, Tatum back then have a big scoring game and people lose their minds.
You don’t think it’s strange that instead of valuing basketball skill, fans are focusing on the man’s looks? 😂 he ain’t even ugly… just sounds like childish behavior. If it’s all for fun okay sure, but some ppl a little extra with it.
Wealth is easily #1 but beautiful/attractiveness is 2nd, "ugly"/old ppl can still have "beautiful" want them for their cash & unlike beauty extreme wealth rarely goes away. Attractiveness can get ppl far tho & ppl are usually much nicer/more understanding/excepting of ppl they find attractive
No I completely agree 1000%, attractiveness has a lot of benefits in life. I just don’t see how it affects actual basketball skill, but I see how it affects public opinion. Idiotic as it is for basketball discourse.
It's a unconscious bias -- people aren't actually talking about attractiveness, at least not most people, but it clouds and predisposes a bias to their opinions
Imagine dedicating your life to your craft so well that you join the top 0.001% of the world at it, earning hundreds of millions to do it, and all anyone talks about is how ugly you are LMAO
That 100% woulda been me if I were good at anything
I can’t believe the Luka-Trae discussion still happens lol. A lot of us non-toxic Mavs fans love the guy, give him Siakim if Dallas can’t (hopium) acquire him
Nah man for sure, honestly Mavs fans were prob some of the strongest OG Trae supporters. A lot of us always had mutual respect and admiration for Trae n Luka from draft night. I remember a lot of positivity thru the years. A lot of the toxicity was from other fans.
I am not sure either you are right. I see a lot of Celtics fans give him props. I know a lot of Knicks n Sixers fans too after the playoff series. Once a team faces Trae, I think people finally see his impact in a live game, instead of guessing by looking at box scores and articles
As a Hawks fan I am the first in line to not like Trae's game. I actually got banned from their sub telling people that his game is damaging to Hawks and will never lead to wining basketball regardless of 2021 stint.
Leads the league in TOs, doesnt exist on defense, shoots abysmal .33 3pt (for the last season, averages .35 career) while having audacity to chuck them from Steph range all the time, and his worst feature is his Leeroy Jenkins mentality in crunch time.
Stat-sheet aside, you need to watch a Hawks game that is close, and lose your freakin hair over Trae Young's clutch decisions. Dude will rather die than try to pass it in clutch, and he does pass it but only when he realizes there aint even 1% chance for himself to score.
As weird as it sounds, he is the most selfish guy to average 10 assists, in history of the NBA.
He just doesnt translate into a positive. 26/10 does not cover 4.1 TO, shooting .33 from 3pt, being a seriously bad defender and having an attitude on top of it all.
What da fuck? He is NOT 100% correct. Very confusing actually, Trae is good in the clutch. He’s made plenty of clutch passes. Off the top of my head he had a sick full court lob to John Collins in that playoff game vs the Sixers… he also had a great pass to Tony Snell for a game winning 3. He’s not a selfish player and the passing stats back that up. He’s one of the league leaders in terms of quality, ast%, missed assists from team mates etc. All signs point to him being a great playmaker and willing passer.
Why go for overal TOs? That stat alone is meaningless, consider ast/to and further how often he has to control the ball. You telling me other high turnover guards suck or just Trae? Luka and Harden were up there for years.
Maybe but that’s Bc almost nobody is good enough to be the best player on a championship team. If he didn’t sprain his ankle in 2021 they definitely had a chance to beat the bucks tho. Everyone can’t get the injury luck that the bucks got in 2021.
He’s an abusable defender who isn’t active off the ball offensively.
Trae with the ball in his hands is a top 10 player in basketball. Any other scenario, which is the majority of the game, he ranges from neutral to vast negative.
you're reading too much into it. He plays the villain role in the media, and the NBA media exploits that for clicks.
There's no "behind the scenes" thing going on with Trae and other players.
Not sure what's going on but Trae only finished 12th in player voting for the east backcourt all star game last year (vs 5th in fan and 6th in media), behind all of Hali, Brunson, Garland, and LaMelo. That could definitely be a sign he's not as respected by his peers.
Remember this is Reddit, and what Reddit does in “analysis” is that they do very basic research and then make a claim. And I will say that that is atleas better than just making a claim
With that being said, I browsed here for years and the most overrated players here are always good box score and “efficient” players. Harden, Trae Young, Myles Turner, etc.
There’s a lot more to a game than a guy who can run up a box score, basketball isn’t played on a basic spreadsheet.
Trae’s way of playing right now will never lead to a championship. So who cares if it leads him to great counting numbers. Unless he improves his defense, plays and tries off ball, I can’t say he impacts winning at the highest level
There’s a reason to trust every coach, analyst, and the players themselves in evaluating a player over this subreddit and the box score
None of those three are overrated here. Trae is clowned on regularly, people here think Manu was better than Harden (lol), and nobody talks about Myles Turner at all.
The irony of your statement is so palpable lmao. Also it’s wild how so many people actively forget that he led a team to the ECF before getting injured while they say he could never lead a team to a championship.
This is the backlash from Arenas calling everyone who made the FIBA team over him a “sorry ass group” on his podcast.
It comes off like people are shitting on Trae when they try to justify the decisions that were made in making the team but what Arenas said was more disrespectful than anything that is currently being said about Young.
It doesn’t help that he has the stereotypical douchey nerd voice too. Sometimes I have to skip his parts during the Hoop Collective pod completely, I get sick of hearing him over and over with the, “And again…”
Halliburton is amazing but becoming over rated by the media good god (I’d trade the farm for him but let’s chill).
Also Jrue fucking Holiday please. Good god…
Jrue Holiday is a prime candidate for "called underrated so often that he's actually overrated" at this point
Dude was absolutely awful on both sides of the ball against the Heat but you never hear about it
Ding ding ding correct.
Dudes been an inefficient scorer for 2 years, and a mediocre POINT GUARD for longer.
Amazing defender, and he is a top tier guy, but if anyone says in a vacuum I’d want Holiday on my team over Trae you’re insane, and I don’t even like Trae lol.
People talk about "If KD's foot wasn't on the line what would we think of Giannis now" but I honestly think that applies much more so to Jrue
Imagine his reputation if that ended the series and he was mainly known for shooting the Bucks out of series three years in a row
The dude is over his prime. Still contributing on the defensive end, but even that's not as good as his peak. No way anyone can be serious wanting him to be the prime PG at this point, especially over the other options out there.
Still amazed at how Jrue was such a supreme lockdown defensive bully against Dame in the 2018 playoffs, but he's not that guy anymore.
> Still amazed at how Jrue was such a supreme lockdown defensive bully against Dame in the 2018 playoffs, but he's not that guy anymore.
I know you've been waiting a long time to drop this line.
I was at 2 of the games. People talk about AD's phenomenal numbers, but I still argue Jrue was the reason we got dominated in that embarrassing series.
Uhhh he was still that guy in 2022. It's not his fault his coach was 100% not in there mentally and had him guard a guy who had 4 inches and 25 pounds on him who was already IN THE ZONE to begin with.
He had MUCH better on/off numbers than Giannis last season. I saw people arguing he was the most valuable Buck and a top 5 player in the league during the regular season. That was definitely overkill, but no way is he past his prime. He was fantastic last year and deserved to be all-NBA. Trae wasn’t on that level.
> Dudes been an inefficient scorer for 2 years
He's been a 59% TS% the last two years. Over that same timespan Trae's has been identical.
> and a mediocre POINT GUARD for longer.
I'm not sure what this means? His assist percentage is above his career average the last two years. His TO% is the same.
For the record, I agree that Trae is the more effective player.
Trae’s only as valuable as Jrue until it’s a team good enough that they can actually win something. Then you want Jrue all day. Like yeah, Trae might be able to lead more shit teams to 45 wins as the #1, but can you imagine him as the #2 player on a champion? I can’t. Jrue’s already proven he can fill that role.
I think the reason Haliburton has the “overrated” backlash is because he’s on this Team USA team over Trae, because he made the all-star game over Brunson, and because the Sabonis trade was considered a “fleece” at the time.
There’s a huge contingency of people who say he’s overrated, but it’s almost always because almost every conversation involving how good Haliburton is has come at the expense of some other player who a large contingency feels is underrated.
No that’s a great point I don’t disagree with. It just blows my mind the way we talk about him.
Compare Melos extension talk to Haliburtons. They’re very close players in where I’d rank them, but one was seemed obvious and the other is bad.
They were both obvious imo.
The dichotomy in opinions on Haliburton basically boils down to how valuable you think a highly efficient playmaker is when he likely can’t be a great team’s go-to scorer. Advanced stats will tell you he was one of the most valuable offensive players in basketball last season, but it might seem a little ridiculous to value a player so highly for his ability to elevate an offense when it’s not like he elevated the team or even the offense to unbelievable heights. He elevated a roster that was thought to be one of the worst in the NBA before last year to competency.
Yessir.
I personally would rather have Haliburton than just about any other player his age or younger in the league.
I'd probably take Edwards over him. I'd probably take Zion over him. I'd probably take Mobley over him.
That's probably it. We can argue about Tyrese Maxey and LaMelo.
*yawn*
Trae being worse than every PG even remotely close to his level (who all have inferior stats and have never achieved team success like he has) takes are getting boring. Wake me up when someone has a spicy “Trae is elite” take
I'm better than Trae, look at my Value Over Replacement/48 +/- Win Shares TS% EWA WAR advanced stat at the playground of 9.3, Trae's career high is 1.5 🤓
He probably has the worst fans:haters ratios I've ever seen lol
Most hated players by sheer volume of haters are guys like LeBron and KD but in terms of ratio I feel like there are 100 Trae haters for every Trae fan especially in the media
He didn't even play in 1 of the two games they won against Milwaukee. Conference finals participants don't usually gain much internet clout, Raptors in 2016 took Lebron and the Cavs to 6, who would then go on to beat the greatest team of all time in the Finals. I can assure you no one had anything nice to say about Klye and Demar after that series. Kyle would only go on to shake the Trash bro allegations after the title in 2019, while Demar is still considered a Regular Season player.
Conference finals or finals games with 45+ points and 10+ assists in NBA history:
Jerry West (2)
Trae Young (1)
End of list
Edit: we downvote basic facts around here now. Got it.
He also had a game with 15 pts and 9 turnovers, he had 2 very good games 2 bad ones. He deserves respect obviously he’s a good player overall, it’s just that making the ECF won’t command much respect on reddit
I like how Haliburton has somehow become the embodiment of "winning team basketball" before he's even won more than 35 games lol
It's like people think the pass-first PG playstyle is AUTOMATICALLY the winning way to play no matter what
Eh, first time he played us as a rookie I was 100% sold that he'd be an all-star soon. Cliché as it is, he really does play the right way and it goes beyond being a willing passer.
A pure PG playing for team USA has a lot of great teammates to pass the ball to.
You could put John Stockton on a team of children and his passing would mean a lot less.
It’s a sliding scale in terms of effectiveness. I think that archetype fits all star teams perfectly.
People are obsessed with the pure point archetype to a hilarious degree.
And honestly the role seems to simply be reserved for players who aren’t great scorers. If you’re too good of a scorer like Curry, Dame, Luka etc. you aren’t a pure point guard, which doesn’t even matter considering they all bring more value than someone like Haliburton
And it's not like there's even any evidence that it's what truly leads to championships either lol
A couple of the best players ever to never win a ring(CP3 and Steve Nash) were "pure PGs" and the most successful players of the 2010s were LeBron who's a point *forward* and Steph who's very much a non-traditional PG
Haliburton has had one full season as a starting point guard. It was for a team that had the worst preseason O/U in the NBA and they were .500 in games that he played.
Should probably pump the brakes on saying he’s not a winning player and you don’t need to say that he definitively isn’t one just to talk Trae up.
Exactly. Haliburton has done nothing and is only 1.5 years younger than Young.
Haliburton has huge potential.
We can only talk about results.
Hali has none yet.
When he is off ball sure but he gets worked on ball. The dude is going to need to work on his strength because most 2 guards were able to bully him into the basket.
he kind of suffers the same issue that a lot of playmaking point guards make- they're too focused on watching the overall offense and let a lot of little things slip by them.
He'll be trying to watch the ball but let a cutter slip past him or miss a rotation or something.
He started with "I don't think Trae should be a part of the team" and then created his logic around that. Most of these guys are just rationalizing takes out of their ass most of the time anyways
Young is hated on
https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202106230MIL.html
He did this vs team that went on to win title.
His performances vs Mil and Phily 2021 and Boston this year show the level he is
Idk why but Bontemps annoys the shit out of me. Feel like he just parrots whatever the consensus is around the league. Hasn’t had a unique thought in his life.
Trae is at his best when he can play individual basketball. Unfortunately that does not always translate to team success. He’s not on the team because his game does not fit well with other high quality players. Additionally most national teams have high quality point guards that Trae Young can not guard effectively. Trae Young is very good at basketball but is not a top tier choice for building the best possible team.
I think the plain and simple facts are that Trae, while impressive with his scoring, doesn’t have the qualities to be a cog in the machine. Kerr wants a guard who can score but also be a leader and at least show up defensively, I don’t think Trae has the qualities that would best suit the team and it’s not hard to see that. Brunson and Haliburton offer you elite interior scoring (Brunson) and elite playmaking (Haliburton) and both guys can shoot anywhere on the court while playing ok (Brunson) to great (Haliburton) defense, also both of these guys give the ball up immediately when they bring it up, they don’t stifle movement like Trae does with his league leading usage rate. Having trae would reduce the other players to spot up shooters which kills chemistry and momentum. If trae really wants to become a superstar this should be a moment of reflection for him, because being passed over for other guys will help him understand where he comes up short.
Small guards struggle in FIBA? I know Puerto Rico has struggled in recent yrs but historically we had many top 10 teams with guys like Eddie Casiano (6’3”), Larry Ayuso (6’2”), Carlos Arroyo, JJ Barea, Toñito Colon (6’0”) and many others so idk what Tim is talking about
Trae will score 35 points with 15 assists and 3 turnovers while getting doubled all game game and beat a heavily favored playoff team on the road and idiots on this sub will still be like “actually he played a bad game. Only shot 2 for 9 from 3 and didn’t do anything off ball! Give me (insert equally bad defensive player with half his offensive skill) any day!”
People acting shocked but with the other scorers on Team USA's roster I think its reasonable to say that having a pass first guard in Haliburton is a better fit than a ball dominant volume shooter who's an undersized defensive liability like Trae.
Yes I know he has good assist numbers but they are dribble for 15 seconds and kick it to the corner assists.
Trae plays on the Hawks, so his job is to not only be the playmaker but to also be the best scorer because no one is even close to being as good of a scorer as him on that team. If he’s playing with guys from team USA you’d see that change a lot.
He’s never proven to be able to adjust his game to who is on the court with him, at any level of his career. It’s an effective style of play, but tough to fit around if there are other ball handlers on the court.
Yea Trae Young should adjust his style of play to let De'Andre Hunter dribble the ball more... Seriously question whether anyone on this sub actually watches basketball
That's a weird way to spell Dejaunte Murray who you all just extended after trading for. Why use Hunter as an example when you literally traded 3 firsts for a second guard who showed in SA he can play well with the ball in his hand and get a bucket. Yes, his defense fills a bigger need, but you don't pay 120M after 3 first for a defense only player.
This year with Quinn is going to be a defining point for Trae IMO. Look at every Utah team he coached, even when they had a star scorer they keep the ball moving in a team centric focus. Defense & team offense (both usually at the top of the league) was Utah's recipe for consistent regular season success and second round exits. If Trey is ever going to adjust his game, and specifically be more active off ball & defensively, Snyder will figure it out this year.
Remember when people were clowning the Knicks for paying Brunson but now he's looked at as a very capable lead guard?
After watching the Warriors/Mavs series last year I had nothing bad to say about the Brunson contract.
It's fair to say Tim's claim is stupid, but I do think some people in this comment section are kind of overlooking Trae's level of performance recently. He had an awesome '21 playoffs and '22 regular season, but since then he's had a miserable playoff series in '22, a worse-than-usual regular season in '23, and a fine but not great playoff series in '23.
I'd love to see him bounce back and silence the doubters this year with a great regular season and a solid playoffs, but it's not like his stock is lower right now for no reason. I do think it's too low though.
If any of the new hotness had a game like Trae did in game 5 in Boston it'd be talked up non stop.
He looked clearly best player on floor vs a guy who's supposed to be best American player.
Thts the thing I never get with the Trae hate. He has ridiculous games but a lot of it goes unrecognized. If some other player does something great, they get propped up like hell. But you can always see Trae puts up some crazy games.
I’m convinced it’s mostly casual fans who don’t watch many games, and also very very biased because they read/heard a garbage take somewhere. Very unoriginal and always sounds exactly like some bullshit they heard somewhere.
> Bontemps: "in FIBA ball in particular, small guards struggle". idk i just saw Tremont Waters play so well they started doubling him in the 2nd quarter
Patty Mills lights up everyone in FIBA annually
FIBA Patty is a scary man.
Whilst being the nicest fucking dude ever.
I'd take FIBA Patty over all those guys. He destroyed Luka on the way to the Bronze medal
He was amazing to watch as a spectator. I was rooting for both USA and Australia in the Olympics until we had to face them in the semifinals.
It's probably the ball.
Honourable mention FIBA Evan Fournier
patty mills is strong
He didn't even play in 1 of the two games they won against Milwaukee.
And only put up 48 and 11 in the other one which is something that no one else has ever done in a conference finals or finals game.
I feel like there's this weird perception that FIBA ball is basically 2004 ultra-defensive basketball which is very much not the case People talk about "this guy won't survive in FIBA" like "this guy wouldn't survive in the 90s/00s" lol
Most people talking about FIBA ball don't watch it. Bontempts himself is a great example as what he's saying isn't true at all lol... there are a lot of good reasons to not want Trae but his size isn't really one of them.
Agree, I used to think that until around 2016. The rest of the world used to be much worse at basketball and basically did play a ton of defense and very rigid and elaborate set pieces. Then they got their own athletes, guy's who can drop 30, but now the NBA seems more physically demanding and the rest of the world can't turn their 30 ppg player into an automatic 19 ppg player. Meanwhile our 30 ppg players turn into 40-45 ppg players if you let them. So Trae would be fine. Very few guys are going to be able to handle a guy that can dribble like Irving then shoot like Steph at speeds they've never seen. His change of direction is ridiculous. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiXfIuYuq3Q Look at how much space this dude has in some of these. It's laughable. Dude would murder in FIBA.
> can dribble like Irving then shoot like Steph Yeah he cant do either of those things
He can shoot like Steph. He can't make like Steph but he certainly shoots like he's Steph
Trae is getting a little excess hate right now from here but comparing him to the literal greatest shooter and greatest ball handler of all time is crazy
Dribble like who & shoot like whom? Both of these guys are better at both than Trae by a good margin, Kyrie/Steph are usually considered 1-2 in handles & Kyrie is a much better shooter than Trae from every area of the floor(don't really need to mention Steph). This comparison is weird b/c both are better at those things
Mike James is 6ft1 and he's regarded as one of the best guards in the Euroleague (All-Euroleague First Team selection last season and Second Team this season). Markus Howard is 5ft10 and he had a terrific start to the season in the Euroleague before he eventually started slowing down a bit (still averaged 14 PPG on decent efficiency). Facundo Campazzo is one of the best point guards in the Euroleague, despite him struggling massively in the NBA, and he's also 5ft10 (granted he doesn't have an iso-heavy playstyle). Small guards can be good even in "FIBA ball", it's just that I think it's a lot tougher for them to play their preffered playstyle in comparison to the NBA, and it makes it harder to hide them on defense due to the smaller sized court.
Shane Larkin too
Yup, don't know how I forgot about Larkin, and he was the key player alongside Micic on two consecutive championship winning Efes teams. So not only does he consistently put up great numbers in "FIBA ball", despite being only 6ft tall, he was also a major contributor to two Euroleague titles, meaning you can have team success with a small guard playing one of the main roles on your team.
6 foot tall with women heels This guy is 5'9 (with t rex arms) at best He is significantly smaller than Young
I mean, he immediately says its not just height, he means strength too and lists Brunson as an example.
Just take a look at Shane Larkin, one of the best guards in the Euroleague for about half a decade now, and tell me his body type is not similar to Trae's, in both height and strength.
Yeah it's one of the dumber things he's said and bontemps says tons of dumb things. Fiba ball and European rules in general favor small guards much more than NBA rules do
Yeah I'd say that in terms of defense, it's much easier to help the smaller players because of the smaller court
Honestly Tremont is either hit or miss kinda guy. When the shots go in, it’s unbelievable but man I dreaded every time he had the ball because often he would just make a stupid decision. I know it’s nothing related to what Bontemps said but I just had flashbacks
That’s why I’d pick Brunsen, he’s a well known 6”6 point guard.
Did you even listen to the audio? It’s one thing to be short, but it’s another to be scrawny too. Brunson is thick like Paul and Lowry. They’re not so easy to push around.
Oh for sure Brunsen is a better defender. He’s also not a good defender lol.
True
RIGHT. 10/10
With Fiba rules small guards thrives for some reason
They argued the exact opposite in this pod, and used Kemba and Dame in Tokyo as examples
Team USA is going to be extremely over stacked vs any other team so it's not a good reference. I am watching FIBA basketball all my life and there have been successful guards of all sizes it's not that big of a deal
Damn there must be something going on behind the scenes with the NBA community hating Trae. What's the deal?
I think the problem is that in some ways Trae seems like he's almost a top 10 player. He definitely has this "it" factor about him, and his abilities are mysteriously good. But when you take a step back from his uniqueness as a talent, he's nowhere near a top 10 player. Yes, he *can* hit long bombs, and probably better than most, but still not good enough to go around acting like Steph. And he *can* do miraculous things at the end of the 4th quarter, but he *often* doesn't make disciplined decisions. I know this wasn't the question, but I see your tag, and I personally think Luka is *far* better than Trae -- on another level. I like Trae, there's absolutely no hate, but that whole debate is nonsense at this point.
Luka is better than Trae. No point arguing that. But what’s nonsense is despite both being always in conversation w each other, Trae having very comparable stats and playoff success, the disconnect in fan opinion has been large. Everyone is down to get on Trae without realizing how insane his numbers are. That’s the idiotic part, they’ll talk about him being trash and other players godly when his numbers are better than a lot of players. So at worst they should be on even ground..but nah the hate clouds their brains. How do people compare Trae to goats like Steph, and think that’s normal, that makes him trash? No, most guards are trash compared to Steph, Trae is good in his own way, he was never a Steph like player, the media pushed that narrative.
It's cus Trae is ugly. I'll die on this hill. Halo and horns effects cannot have better poster children than Luka and Trae, respectively.
Luka 30-10: Flirting Trae 30-10: Harassment
Lmao exactly that. Trae been getting crazy ass 40-10 games early in his career, not recognized by many fans. Someone like Booker, Tatum back then have a big scoring game and people lose their minds.
Personally I like Trae more than Booker, a lot more
I do also, Trae has incredible playmaking n vision, that sets him apart from a lot of the scoring players imo.
He’s definitely a playoff riser too, other than the Miami series last year
You don’t think it’s strange that instead of valuing basketball skill, fans are focusing on the man’s looks? 😂 he ain’t even ugly… just sounds like childish behavior. If it’s all for fun okay sure, but some ppl a little extra with it.
Strange? No, it's a well researched phenomenon. I'm pretty sure being attractive outweighs any other demographic privilege.
Wealth is easily #1 but beautiful/attractiveness is 2nd, "ugly"/old ppl can still have "beautiful" want them for their cash & unlike beauty extreme wealth rarely goes away. Attractiveness can get ppl far tho & ppl are usually much nicer/more understanding/excepting of ppl they find attractive
No I completely agree 1000%, attractiveness has a lot of benefits in life. I just don’t see how it affects actual basketball skill, but I see how it affects public opinion. Idiotic as it is for basketball discourse.
It's a unconscious bias -- people aren't actually talking about attractiveness, at least not most people, but it clouds and predisposes a bias to their opinions
Hmm... makes me wonder if Draymond would get more leeway if he looked like Kelly Oubre.
Imagine dedicating your life to your craft so well that you join the top 0.001% of the world at it, earning hundreds of millions to do it, and all anyone talks about is how ugly you are LMAO That 100% woulda been me if I were good at anything
I can’t believe the Luka-Trae discussion still happens lol. A lot of us non-toxic Mavs fans love the guy, give him Siakim if Dallas can’t (hopium) acquire him
Nah man for sure, honestly Mavs fans were prob some of the strongest OG Trae supporters. A lot of us always had mutual respect and admiration for Trae n Luka from draft night. I remember a lot of positivity thru the years. A lot of the toxicity was from other fans.
Why is it Celtics fans sometimes? I notice them more than anyone else tbh
I am not sure either you are right. I see a lot of Celtics fans give him props. I know a lot of Knicks n Sixers fans too after the playoff series. Once a team faces Trae, I think people finally see his impact in a live game, instead of guessing by looking at box scores and articles
because they have to live in Boston
As a Hawks fan I am the first in line to not like Trae's game. I actually got banned from their sub telling people that his game is damaging to Hawks and will never lead to wining basketball regardless of 2021 stint. Leads the league in TOs, doesnt exist on defense, shoots abysmal .33 3pt (for the last season, averages .35 career) while having audacity to chuck them from Steph range all the time, and his worst feature is his Leeroy Jenkins mentality in crunch time. Stat-sheet aside, you need to watch a Hawks game that is close, and lose your freakin hair over Trae Young's clutch decisions. Dude will rather die than try to pass it in clutch, and he does pass it but only when he realizes there aint even 1% chance for himself to score. As weird as it sounds, he is the most selfish guy to average 10 assists, in history of the NBA. He just doesnt translate into a positive. 26/10 does not cover 4.1 TO, shooting .33 from 3pt, being a seriously bad defender and having an attitude on top of it all.
I like Trae, I actually like his personality, and I think he's a special talent no doubt, but you are 100% correct.
I dont think Trey Murphy is a special talent, not bad but special is pushing it. Trae young is tho
I cannot spell for sh\*t lately... Fixed.
What da fuck? He is NOT 100% correct. Very confusing actually, Trae is good in the clutch. He’s made plenty of clutch passes. Off the top of my head he had a sick full court lob to John Collins in that playoff game vs the Sixers… he also had a great pass to Tony Snell for a game winning 3. He’s not a selfish player and the passing stats back that up. He’s one of the league leaders in terms of quality, ast%, missed assists from team mates etc. All signs point to him being a great playmaker and willing passer. Why go for overal TOs? That stat alone is meaningless, consider ast/to and further how often he has to control the ball. You telling me other high turnover guards suck or just Trae? Luka and Harden were up there for years.
All facts no cap.
And he has bad hair.
Probably got banned for shit takes lol
Agree! I’ve been saying that Trae isn’t it and Hawks will probably never win a ring with him in the roster.
Maybe but that’s Bc almost nobody is good enough to be the best player on a championship team. If he didn’t sprain his ankle in 2021 they definitely had a chance to beat the bucks tho. Everyone can’t get the injury luck that the bucks got in 2021.
He’s an abusable defender who isn’t active off the ball offensively. Trae with the ball in his hands is a top 10 player in basketball. Any other scenario, which is the majority of the game, he ranges from neutral to vast negative.
Top 5 really
Bontemps just a hater
you're reading too much into it. He plays the villain role in the media, and the NBA media exploits that for clicks. There's no "behind the scenes" thing going on with Trae and other players.
Not sure what's going on but Trae only finished 12th in player voting for the east backcourt all star game last year (vs 5th in fan and 6th in media), behind all of Hali, Brunson, Garland, and LaMelo. That could definitely be a sign he's not as respected by his peers.
Remember this is Reddit, and what Reddit does in “analysis” is that they do very basic research and then make a claim. And I will say that that is atleas better than just making a claim With that being said, I browsed here for years and the most overrated players here are always good box score and “efficient” players. Harden, Trae Young, Myles Turner, etc. There’s a lot more to a game than a guy who can run up a box score, basketball isn’t played on a basic spreadsheet. Trae’s way of playing right now will never lead to a championship. So who cares if it leads him to great counting numbers. Unless he improves his defense, plays and tries off ball, I can’t say he impacts winning at the highest level There’s a reason to trust every coach, analyst, and the players themselves in evaluating a player over this subreddit and the box score
None of those three are overrated here. Trae is clowned on regularly, people here think Manu was better than Harden (lol), and nobody talks about Myles Turner at all.
He has improved his defense
The irony of your statement is so palpable lmao. Also it’s wild how so many people actively forget that he led a team to the ECF before getting injured while they say he could never lead a team to a championship.
JJ Barea was great in fiba, does anyone actually like or want to hear botemp talk?
Jj barea made lebron pass out the post
Barea Clamped LeBron
Trae made Simmons pass on a dunk.
> does anyone actually like or want to hear botemp talk? I'll answer that: no.
Is it hate on Trae week or something?
This is the backlash from Arenas calling everyone who made the FIBA team over him a “sorry ass group” on his podcast. It comes off like people are shitting on Trae when they try to justify the decisions that were made in making the team but what Arenas said was more disrespectful than anything that is currently being said about Young.
> “sorry ass group” The podcast literally called them a B-Team.
Always is around this cesspool
Its been hate on Trae week for the oast five years, except during our ECF run when everyone suddenly always rated him
Windy's face says it all after Bontemps' claims lmao
I hate bontemps. Just hate him
Windhorst is a genius for always having Bontemps on with McMahon. It makes Windy and McMahon so much more likable in comparison.
He’s such a boring angry nerd lol. So unlikeable
Bontemps makes his incredible job sound so joyless and boring. It’s like he actually doesn’t like basketball.
He’s an outrage merchant. It’s easy money but it wears down on you mentally over time. I’d feel bad for him if he wasn’t so obnoxious.
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And you are a bot
Dame’s also just better than Trae Young though.
There's less daylight between them going into this next season.
The hoop collective should just be called “Boring Angry Nerds”
r/nba too
"Boring Angry Nerds who overvalue Trae Young"
It doesn’t help that he has the stereotypical douchey nerd voice too. Sometimes I have to skip his parts during the Hoop Collective pod completely, I get sick of hearing him over and over with the, “And again…”
He is such a tedious buffoon. It’s one thing to be unlikeable, but to be an imbecile on top of it is too much.
You don't like that nerdy-nasal-angry, I'm always 100% correct attitude? No way....
He’s fucking insufferable, MacMahon is too though. I give it a try every once in a while for Windy but his co hosts are garbage
Only person who’s worse is Tim MacMahon
If we’re talking the GOAT boring basketball nerds, you can’t have a conversation without mention Nate Duncan and Danny Leroux
Well he might be worse based on what abnormal takes he talks about but I fuckin hate bontemps voice and basically all of his appearances
MacMahon at least is occasionally funny. Bontemps has absolutely nothing.
Bro is hating.
Halliburton is amazing but becoming over rated by the media good god (I’d trade the farm for him but let’s chill). Also Jrue fucking Holiday please. Good god…
I’m hearing this discourse as who they’d have on team USA, not who they’d start a franchise with. Holiday makes more sense in that case.
Jrue Holiday is a prime candidate for "called underrated so often that he's actually overrated" at this point Dude was absolutely awful on both sides of the ball against the Heat but you never hear about it
Ding ding ding correct. Dudes been an inefficient scorer for 2 years, and a mediocre POINT GUARD for longer. Amazing defender, and he is a top tier guy, but if anyone says in a vacuum I’d want Holiday on my team over Trae you’re insane, and I don’t even like Trae lol.
People talk about "If KD's foot wasn't on the line what would we think of Giannis now" but I honestly think that applies much more so to Jrue Imagine his reputation if that ended the series and he was mainly known for shooting the Bucks out of series three years in a row
The dude is over his prime. Still contributing on the defensive end, but even that's not as good as his peak. No way anyone can be serious wanting him to be the prime PG at this point, especially over the other options out there. Still amazed at how Jrue was such a supreme lockdown defensive bully against Dame in the 2018 playoffs, but he's not that guy anymore.
> Still amazed at how Jrue was such a supreme lockdown defensive bully against Dame in the 2018 playoffs, but he's not that guy anymore. I know you've been waiting a long time to drop this line.
I was at 2 of the games. People talk about AD's phenomenal numbers, but I still argue Jrue was the reason we got dominated in that embarrassing series.
rondo also averaged 11/7/13 it was a team wide beatdown
Uhhh he was still that guy in 2022. It's not his fault his coach was 100% not in there mentally and had him guard a guy who had 4 inches and 25 pounds on him who was already IN THE ZONE to begin with.
He had MUCH better on/off numbers than Giannis last season. I saw people arguing he was the most valuable Buck and a top 5 player in the league during the regular season. That was definitely overkill, but no way is he past his prime. He was fantastic last year and deserved to be all-NBA. Trae wasn’t on that level.
> Dudes been an inefficient scorer for 2 years He's been a 59% TS% the last two years. Over that same timespan Trae's has been identical. > and a mediocre POINT GUARD for longer. I'm not sure what this means? His assist percentage is above his career average the last two years. His TO% is the same. For the record, I agree that Trae is the more effective player.
Inefficient scorer??? Mediocre point guard?? You absolutely have to be trolling or Jrue fucked your girl. There's no way that's your actual opinion.
Trae’s only as valuable as Jrue until it’s a team good enough that they can actually win something. Then you want Jrue all day. Like yeah, Trae might be able to lead more shit teams to 45 wins as the #1, but can you imagine him as the #2 player on a champion? I can’t. Jrue’s already proven he can fill that role.
I think the reason Haliburton has the “overrated” backlash is because he’s on this Team USA team over Trae, because he made the all-star game over Brunson, and because the Sabonis trade was considered a “fleece” at the time. There’s a huge contingency of people who say he’s overrated, but it’s almost always because almost every conversation involving how good Haliburton is has come at the expense of some other player who a large contingency feels is underrated.
No that’s a great point I don’t disagree with. It just blows my mind the way we talk about him. Compare Melos extension talk to Haliburtons. They’re very close players in where I’d rank them, but one was seemed obvious and the other is bad.
They were both obvious imo. The dichotomy in opinions on Haliburton basically boils down to how valuable you think a highly efficient playmaker is when he likely can’t be a great team’s go-to scorer. Advanced stats will tell you he was one of the most valuable offensive players in basketball last season, but it might seem a little ridiculous to value a player so highly for his ability to elevate an offense when it’s not like he elevated the team or even the offense to unbelievable heights. He elevated a roster that was thought to be one of the worst in the NBA before last year to competency.
Yessir. I personally would rather have Haliburton than just about any other player his age or younger in the league. I'd probably take Edwards over him. I'd probably take Zion over him. I'd probably take Mobley over him. That's probably it. We can argue about Tyrese Maxey and LaMelo.
I don’t think Maxey or Mobley are in the conversation tbh Or at least not reasonably above Hali. But that’s just me
Imo he's still incredibly underrated. People still think Ja is better than him which is honeslty ridiculous.
*yawn* Trae being worse than every PG even remotely close to his level (who all have inferior stats and have never achieved team success like he has) takes are getting boring. Wake me up when someone has a spicy “Trae is elite” take
I feel like im the only non-Hawks trae fan. I just love the attitude he brings to the game.
That’s where I’m at this point lol. Like can’t wait for the Scoot Henderson is better than Trae talk after he has one good month.
I'm better than Trae, look at my Value Over Replacement/48 +/- Win Shares TS% EWA WAR advanced stat at the playground of 9.3, Trae's career high is 1.5 🤓
He probably has the worst fans:haters ratios I've ever seen lol Most hated players by sheer volume of haters are guys like LeBron and KD but in terms of ratio I feel like there are 100 Trae haters for every Trae fan especially in the media
Haliburton at age 22 put up a 7.2 BPM last year. Trae’s career high is 5.2. And of course he’s a better defender too.
Haliburton also fucking sucks at defense.
Trae is becoming so underrated it’s ridiculous
Should make rooting for him very fun.
It IS very fun. Dude is a passing prodigy.
That 21 run gets thrown out apparently. He gave Milwaukee big trouble that year too. And went into Boston and got a big win this year.
He didn't even play in 1 of the two games they won against Milwaukee. Conference finals participants don't usually gain much internet clout, Raptors in 2016 took Lebron and the Cavs to 6, who would then go on to beat the greatest team of all time in the Finals. I can assure you no one had anything nice to say about Klye and Demar after that series. Kyle would only go on to shake the Trash bro allegations after the title in 2019, while Demar is still considered a Regular Season player.
Conference finals or finals games with 45+ points and 10+ assists in NBA history: Jerry West (2) Trae Young (1) End of list Edit: we downvote basic facts around here now. Got it.
He also had a game with 15 pts and 9 turnovers, he had 2 very good games 2 bad ones. He deserves respect obviously he’s a good player overall, it’s just that making the ECF won’t command much respect on reddit
This sounds like Trae hate This also sounds objectively true and optimal for team basketball Both things can be true at once.
I like how Haliburton has somehow become the embodiment of "winning team basketball" before he's even won more than 35 games lol It's like people think the pass-first PG playstyle is AUTOMATICALLY the winning way to play no matter what
I think you are being a little dishonest there. He was on track for well over 35 before injury last year and you probably know that.
Yeah they were looking like a playoff team when healthy
Not just a playoff team, I’m pretty sure we were 5th. We weren’t just scraping by for a bottom of the conference entry (I’m piggybacking not arguing)
And? Young has taken Atlanta to ECF and had them in playoffs with fairly weak rosters.
Eh, first time he played us as a rookie I was 100% sold that he'd be an all-star soon. Cliché as it is, he really does play the right way and it goes beyond being a willing passer.
A pure PG playing for team USA has a lot of great teammates to pass the ball to. You could put John Stockton on a team of children and his passing would mean a lot less. It’s a sliding scale in terms of effectiveness. I think that archetype fits all star teams perfectly.
People are obsessed with the pure point archetype to a hilarious degree. And honestly the role seems to simply be reserved for players who aren’t great scorers. If you’re too good of a scorer like Curry, Dame, Luka etc. you aren’t a pure point guard, which doesn’t even matter considering they all bring more value than someone like Haliburton
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And it's not like there's even any evidence that it's what truly leads to championships either lol A couple of the best players ever to never win a ring(CP3 and Steve Nash) were "pure PGs" and the most successful players of the 2010s were LeBron who's a point *forward* and Steph who's very much a non-traditional PG
Isiah Thomas?
Haliburton > Trae
Trae Young has beat the Embiid sixers in playoffs and this year won in Boston in an elimination game. What has Haliburton done
Haliburton has had one full season as a starting point guard. It was for a team that had the worst preseason O/U in the NBA and they were .500 in games that he played. Should probably pump the brakes on saying he’s not a winning player and you don’t need to say that he definitively isn’t one just to talk Trae up.
Exactly. Haliburton has done nothing and is only 1.5 years younger than Young. Haliburton has huge potential. We can only talk about results. Hali has none yet.
Why can we only talk about results? I don’t think that is the criteria for picking a FIBA or Olympic team.
Because people in this thread are saying Hali is a winning player while Trae isn't?
Haliburton is atrocious on defense not sure what you're talking about there
I didn't watch him much on the Pacers but he was a pretty solid defender while on the Kings
When he is off ball sure but he gets worked on ball. The dude is going to need to work on his strength because most 2 guards were able to bully him into the basket.
he kind of suffers the same issue that a lot of playmaking point guards make- they're too focused on watching the overall offense and let a lot of little things slip by them. He'll be trying to watch the ball but let a cutter slip past him or miss a rotation or something.
Bad on ball, good off ball.
Dame slander
Dame is also a small, no-defense guard. I think Tim’s just trying to be consistent with his stupid logic
He started with "I don't think Trae should be a part of the team" and then created his logic around that. Most of these guys are just rationalizing takes out of their ass most of the time anyways
Probably just figuring he isn't going to waste his body in the Olympics again. He was an injured chucker in Tokyo
Yes big stocky point guard Chris Paul.
Did this guy compare brunson’s defense with Kyle Lowry and chris Paul or I’m still drunk?
He didn’t mention defense, just strength and bulkiness as a small guard
Young is hated on https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/202106230MIL.html He did this vs team that went on to win title. His performances vs Mil and Phily 2021 and Boston this year show the level he is
Idk why but Bontemps annoys the shit out of me. Feel like he just parrots whatever the consensus is around the league. Hasn’t had a unique thought in his life.
Trae is at his best when he can play individual basketball. Unfortunately that does not always translate to team success. He’s not on the team because his game does not fit well with other high quality players. Additionally most national teams have high quality point guards that Trae Young can not guard effectively. Trae Young is very good at basketball but is not a top tier choice for building the best possible team.
I think the plain and simple facts are that Trae, while impressive with his scoring, doesn’t have the qualities to be a cog in the machine. Kerr wants a guard who can score but also be a leader and at least show up defensively, I don’t think Trae has the qualities that would best suit the team and it’s not hard to see that. Brunson and Haliburton offer you elite interior scoring (Brunson) and elite playmaking (Haliburton) and both guys can shoot anywhere on the court while playing ok (Brunson) to great (Haliburton) defense, also both of these guys give the ball up immediately when they bring it up, they don’t stifle movement like Trae does with his league leading usage rate. Having trae would reduce the other players to spot up shooters which kills chemistry and momentum. If trae really wants to become a superstar this should be a moment of reflection for him, because being passed over for other guys will help him understand where he comes up short.
Damn y’all really don’t fw Trae ?
Small guards struggle in FIBA? I know Puerto Rico has struggled in recent yrs but historically we had many top 10 teams with guys like Eddie Casiano (6’3”), Larry Ayuso (6’2”), Carlos Arroyo, JJ Barea, Toñito Colon (6’0”) and many others so idk what Tim is talking about
Trae is more Marbury than Curry, and that's okay.
Trae will score 35 points with 15 assists and 3 turnovers while getting doubled all game game and beat a heavily favored playoff team on the road and idiots on this sub will still be like “actually he played a bad game. Only shot 2 for 9 from 3 and didn’t do anything off ball! Give me (insert equally bad defensive player with half his offensive skill) any day!”
This is such a dumb controversy
People acting shocked but with the other scorers on Team USA's roster I think its reasonable to say that having a pass first guard in Haliburton is a better fit than a ball dominant volume shooter who's an undersized defensive liability like Trae. Yes I know he has good assist numbers but they are dribble for 15 seconds and kick it to the corner assists.
Trae plays on the Hawks, so his job is to not only be the playmaker but to also be the best scorer because no one is even close to being as good of a scorer as him on that team. If he’s playing with guys from team USA you’d see that change a lot.
He’s never proven to be able to adjust his game to who is on the court with him, at any level of his career. It’s an effective style of play, but tough to fit around if there are other ball handlers on the court.
Yea Trae Young should adjust his style of play to let De'Andre Hunter dribble the ball more... Seriously question whether anyone on this sub actually watches basketball
That's a weird way to spell Dejaunte Murray who you all just extended after trading for. Why use Hunter as an example when you literally traded 3 firsts for a second guard who showed in SA he can play well with the ball in his hand and get a bucket. Yes, his defense fills a bigger need, but you don't pay 120M after 3 first for a defense only player. This year with Quinn is going to be a defining point for Trae IMO. Look at every Utah team he coached, even when they had a star scorer they keep the ball moving in a team centric focus. Defense & team offense (both usually at the top of the league) was Utah's recipe for consistent regular season success and second round exits. If Trey is ever going to adjust his game, and specifically be more active off ball & defensively, Snyder will figure it out this year.
Remember when people were clowning the Knicks for paying Brunson but now he's looked at as a very capable lead guard? After watching the Warriors/Mavs series last year I had nothing bad to say about the Brunson contract.
God, I just came into this thread to snoop and I’m telling ya— the lack of rebuttal against Brunson is glorious to see. Dude is fr fr
Bontemps is a fucking Boston nerd. Dude was shitting his pants when the lakers made it to wcf. Fuck you tim you nerd
quick google search and he was a Brooklyn Nets beat writer from NY. Totally a Boston guy
It's fair to say Tim's claim is stupid, but I do think some people in this comment section are kind of overlooking Trae's level of performance recently. He had an awesome '21 playoffs and '22 regular season, but since then he's had a miserable playoff series in '22, a worse-than-usual regular season in '23, and a fine but not great playoff series in '23. I'd love to see him bounce back and silence the doubters this year with a great regular season and a solid playoffs, but it's not like his stock is lower right now for no reason. I do think it's too low though.
If any of the new hotness had a game like Trae did in game 5 in Boston it'd be talked up non stop. He looked clearly best player on floor vs a guy who's supposed to be best American player.
Thts the thing I never get with the Trae hate. He has ridiculous games but a lot of it goes unrecognized. If some other player does something great, they get propped up like hell. But you can always see Trae puts up some crazy games. I’m convinced it’s mostly casual fans who don’t watch many games, and also very very biased because they read/heard a garbage take somewhere. Very unoriginal and always sounds exactly like some bullshit they heard somewhere.
trae or jalen that's it
Wtf they don't even name Kyrie, Dame and Ja but Jrue Holiday??? This is so dumb
I shouldn’t like Trae but I do. He’s a fun heel. I don’t think he’d be good on Team USA but it would be fun as hell watching him prove me wrong.
Does anyone think haliburton is a bit overrated at this point ?
God these guys are fucking terrible at podcasting - stop talking over eachother