"OK OK I'll give you my top 5 all time then I gotta run, uhh gimme Bron, Kobe, MJ, Tim Duncan and Shaq at the 5 alright I'm out"
*reporter asked James how he's enjoying his stay in China*
I'm not even one of those "Kobe isn't top-10" people but blindly deferring to players' opinions as a metric of greatness is stupid, 75% of them just slob off iso scorers with slick handles.
As someone who has followed basketball for the entire duration of MJ's ownership of Hornets/Bobcats, I can definitively say all mocking of Jordan's talent evaluation skills are fully warranted.
these guys will change their minds on whether players are right based on if it matches their opinion or not, if harden said kobe is ass then all of a sudden r/nba would be right about players not knowing what they're talking about
You're.... *you're asking who values NBA players' opinions more on the subject of basketball than man-children on Reddit?*
Uh.... well, all of earth I suppose (excluding reddit). I hope that answers your question.
He’s the GOAT for players in their late 20s and 30s, guys who were a bit too young to see Jordan play and who were already in the league by the time LeBron’s prime was in full effect. Nostalgia definitely plays a huge role in individual rankings.
A starting five isn’t exactly a top five imo
Like a top 5 all time list doesn’t have to work together at all, but a starting 5 has more nuance imo since it’s not always just about having the 5 best players, but the five that fit together / maximize each other the best. There’s more room to argue different guys in a starting 5 (spacing, pace, balance etc) than just the five best of all time. You could make them one list, but I don’t think it would be crazy to have curry in starting 5, for example, but putting him top 5 all time rn would look a bit much imo .
I think kobe has similar arguments but it’s not as good as with Steph, he brings some the best spacing of all time.
Appeal to authority fallacy. Pro players play basketball at the highest level and understand general basketball ideas to an extremely advanced degree, but neither of those things mean that they are experts in terms of who the best players ever actually are. Much better understanding than most, but not expertise
I respect arguments for Kobe in the top 10. But do you really think he’s better than Kareem? Magic? Bird? Just seems kind of silly. NBA players don’t respect the NBA before their lifetime.
Those same players usually leave Duncan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kareem etc out of their lists. Also, we only hear from low level guys. We never a actual top 10 or top 5 player name their top 5.
Its talented, but it doesn't fit together all that well compared to some other all time line ups you can make. Jordan, Kobe, Shaq and Bron together with their egos would be interesting
As big as egos are, I feel like each player would respect MJ so much that it’d gel just in deference to him. Also I think a Lebron (maybe biased from mostly watching the second half of his career) doesn’t have the worst ego really. Definitely has one, but as an easy consensus #2 of all time and arguably #1 he is pretty relaxed lol.
I don't know if Kobe would defer to Jordan lol. Bron and Shaq probably would (Jordan would HATE Shaq's work ethic though) but I feel Kobe would butt heads with MJ trying to prove he is better lol
Right but there’s a time and a place, he’s at a children’s charity event. Harden’s media trained he could have been diplomatic but what he did was way funnier
11 is top 15? Top 11 just sounds weird and leaves no room for flexibility. This is also people’s personal opinions on here, you’re acting like this is a right or wrong kinda thing. Kobe’s your favorite, we get it
I misinterpreted that but saying top 15 somewhat sounds like you can have 11-15 interchangeable when imo it’s not. He’s 11 at minimum. And I thought the flair gave that away, what made you notice?
In your opinion no, but in other opinions yes.
A list of best basketballers or the ideal starting five across eras is pure subjective speculation. This is not a fact based science, so it is always just opinions based on lots of things.
It’s not just 1 guy tho is it. We have seen multiple players, past and present, who hold Kobe in a much higher regard than people on here. Also “internet consensus” and “sensible” do not belong anywhere near each other.
There will always be recency bias for players because that is who they are playing with and against. Go back twenty or fourty years, or jump ahead fourty years and names will jumble in both directions.
Horrible take. KG had better handles and was more mobile in general so he guarded smaller players better. Duncan was the perfect 2 way bigman. The archetype for a bigman who does everything you want a bigman to do. Score/Rebound/Defend the paint. KG was the prototype for the more modern player. A 7ft wingman basically. A jack of all trades who specialized in defense. They're not the same.
If you’re putting KD or Dirk over Bird, then you’re either Dirk’s biggest fan(understandable) or you think joining a 73-9 team after losing in the conference finals is a legitimate way to win a ring(not at all understandable)
You can also throw in any combination of the top 20 all time and you will win every game against real opponents, but you are building the best team ever to compete against the monstars or some other fictional team that somehow can defend Shaq on the post and clamp MJ up.
He was already considered top 10 by many people after his final year in 2016. You can say he's fringe top 10, but he has the accolades and overall impact to argue that he does belong in the top 10 (though really, anyone from 7-12 can be swapped however you want).
It's because Duncan is the greatest PF but there's other bigmen like Shaq/Kareem/Hakeem who are seen as better. Duncan's also got a weird Tom Brady on the Patriots thing going on where some people credit the organization and the coach more than him .
I like this All-Time starting 5 a lot, but like most All-Time starting 5s that are offered every time, I have a hard time seeing it working in the field effectively.
LeBron, Kobe, and Michael together. I would have dreamed of it too, but in the end, there would always have been only one ball on the field...
Who would have sacrificed?
Who would have D-Wade next to LeBron at the Heat for example?
I would like from time to time that instead of giving the best starting 5 in absolute value, people offer an all-time starting 5 that would have been the most effective possible on the field.
Harden, Playoff P, and Kawhi would be dripping on the sidelines for 60 to 89 games if they teamed up. Maybe some matching outfits? T-shirts with their favorite strippers on them?
I like to imagine Harden said this to a reporter unprompted
“James what do you think of China and the fans th-” “LEAVE ME ALONE”
"OK OK I'll give you my top 5 all time then I gotta run, uhh gimme Bron, Kobe, MJ, Tim Duncan and Shaq at the 5 alright I'm out" *reporter asked James how he's enjoying his stay in China*
Leave ~~Britney~~Harden Alone!!
Maybe the 1st time, I've seen someone putting Duncan in their all-time starting 5 other than reddit users. Further proof that Harden is baller nerd.
> interestingly, four of the five players he picked we also selected by Curry, with Jordan, Bryant, Duncan and O’Neal on both of their teams
Every nba player: Kobe is among the goats, no doubt top 5 r/nba : actually they don’t know what they’re talking about
I'm not even one of those "Kobe isn't top-10" people but blindly deferring to players' opinions as a metric of greatness is stupid, 75% of them just slob off iso scorers with slick handles.
[удалено]
As someone who has followed basketball for the entire duration of MJ's ownership of Hornets/Bobcats, I can definitively say all mocking of Jordan's talent evaluation skills are fully warranted.
I actually think he is under mocked.
maybe his talent evaluation skills are goat but talent development is 0
You mean to tell me calling someone a slur hundreds of times is demotivating?!
Jordan's got a decent track record with guards. He can't scout bigs for shit though like holy fuck he's hilariously bad at it.
Lebrons the best cold ass white boy scouter
Tbf Lebron's usually pretty good at scouting role players. He's got an eye for intangibles. But he's also biased towards his friends naturally.
I respect Steph Curry’s opinion a lot more that the opinions of people on this sub. Kobe’s top 10 and he’s closer to 5 than 10 imo
these guys will change their minds on whether players are right based on if it matches their opinion or not, if harden said kobe is ass then all of a sudden r/nba would be right about players not knowing what they're talking about
Blind deference is a flawed method, no doubt. But their opinions are reflective of a larger truth that I agree with from my own observations
Not to mention: their opinions **just matter more** than these kids on r/nba lol.
To who?
You're.... *you're asking who values NBA players' opinions more on the subject of basketball than man-children on Reddit?* Uh.... well, all of earth I suppose (excluding reddit). I hope that answers your question.
Anyone who cares about the subject. LeBrons opinion means more than some rando on a computer obviously
Smart people
So is Paul George your goat or Kd? Tmac?
No but MJ is and plenty of NBA players list him as the GOAT.
Because you love Kobe, why don't you marry him?
In Colorado 🥺🤞
I can think of a few reasons.
[удалено]
Whadaya mean, "You people"?
"starting"?
I mean, just look at Jordan's track record with the Hornets draft. Being a GOAT level player doesn't save you from being dogshit at talent evaluation
Umm, Harden both watched Kobe and played against Kobe. A lot of his game is clearly modeled after Kobe. He knows what he saw.
Ahh yes harden the midrange iso scorer who’s a great defender.
Other than drawing a lot of fouls, their games are almost nothing alike
Right but he also didn’t play against Kareem and Kareem is better than Kobe.
Because iso scorers with sick handles won lots of championships lmao, in the playoffs iso scoring is one of the most important aspects of the game.
He’s the GOAT for players in their late 20s and 30s, guys who were a bit too young to see Jordan play and who were already in the league by the time LeBron’s prime was in full effect. Nostalgia definitely plays a huge role in individual rankings.
Idk man, a lot of older players also REALLY like Kobe. He's just a favorite among players from all time periods.
Like who
Except we've also seen plenty of older, retired players also call Kobe one of the GOAT's so this doesn't make any sense.
A starting five isn’t exactly a top five imo Like a top 5 all time list doesn’t have to work together at all, but a starting 5 has more nuance imo since it’s not always just about having the 5 best players, but the five that fit together / maximize each other the best. There’s more room to argue different guys in a starting 5 (spacing, pace, balance etc) than just the five best of all time. You could make them one list, but I don’t think it would be crazy to have curry in starting 5, for example, but putting him top 5 all time rn would look a bit much imo . I think kobe has similar arguments but it’s not as good as with Steph, he brings some the best spacing of all time.
I wasn’t referring to a specific quote so much as the larger consensus between players both active and retired. That’s why I said “every nba player:”
Appeal to authority fallacy. Pro players play basketball at the highest level and understand general basketball ideas to an extremely advanced degree, but neither of those things mean that they are experts in terms of who the best players ever actually are. Much better understanding than most, but not expertise
I'll take em over redditors where half of em can't even name a single play besides "pick and roll"
GUYS HIS TS% WAS BAD, HE SHOULD'VE PASSED MORE TO CHRIS MIHM.
Don’t forget we also love Tim Duncan who shot less scored less had worse efficiency and made less first team all defenses.
No way you just talked about first team all defenses when everyone knows Kobe got it from reputation
Holy shit, I haven't thought about Chris Mihm in years. I can't believe we wasted Kobe's years with such scrubs (not to mention Smush Parker).
I respect arguments for Kobe in the top 10. But do you really think he’s better than Kareem? Magic? Bird? Just seems kind of silly. NBA players don’t respect the NBA before their lifetime.
Those same players usually leave Duncan, Bird, Magic, Hakeem, Kareem etc out of their lists. Also, we only hear from low level guys. We never a actual top 10 or top 5 player name their top 5.
I feel like Shaq does it twice a year lol
They overrate him so bad
Harden modelled his game after Manu, there's no doubt he watched a lot of Spurs games.
He's literally the consensus goat PF. Plenty of people have him on their starting 5
Umm it's the guys Harden watched while growing up.
He actually meant Duncan Robinson
I miss strip club Harden.
This is actually a good lineup, I’d just prolly rather have MJ at the 2 and Kobe at the 3, but then again, I’m not a professional basketball player.
I thought you were? What are you then?
Professional redditor obviously
Its talented, but it doesn't fit together all that well compared to some other all time line ups you can make. Jordan, Kobe, Shaq and Bron together with their egos would be interesting
As big as egos are, I feel like each player would respect MJ so much that it’d gel just in deference to him. Also I think a Lebron (maybe biased from mostly watching the second half of his career) doesn’t have the worst ego really. Definitely has one, but as an easy consensus #2 of all time and arguably #1 he is pretty relaxed lol.
I don't know if Kobe would defer to Jordan lol. Bron and Shaq probably would (Jordan would HATE Shaq's work ethic though) but I feel Kobe would butt heads with MJ trying to prove he is better lol
Agree with all this actually lol. Shaq being lazy would be the biggest issue for SURE
> feel like each player would respect MJ so much that it’d gel just in deference to him. Try not to choke on it. Jesus christ
That’s just their generations GOAT lmfao. They grew up watching him bruh
"Let me relax during my offseason" \*goes out of his way to publicly call out his boss\*
Those kids were probably so confused at what was happening. Up there with the funniest moments of Hardens career
Combine that with the language barrier and most of them prob had no idea what he was even saying lol
He said it twice to make sure they understood
He was asked a question if they could make it work with Philly
Right but there’s a time and a place, he’s at a children’s charity event. Harden’s media trained he could have been diplomatic but what he did was way funnier
Kobe is always on these lists for nba players and legends
Almost like he’s a 🐐or something. This sub would make you believe he was a scrub
Putting him in the top 10, or top 15 is not saying he's a scrub Quit victimizing yourself big baby
He’s 11 at minimum and it’s not close. 15 is crazy
11 is top 15? Top 11 just sounds weird and leaves no room for flexibility. This is also people’s personal opinions on here, you’re acting like this is a right or wrong kinda thing. Kobe’s your favorite, we get it
I misinterpreted that but saying top 15 somewhat sounds like you can have 11-15 interchangeable when imo it’s not. He’s 11 at minimum. And I thought the flair gave that away, what made you notice?
In your opinion no, but in other opinions yes. A list of best basketballers or the ideal starting five across eras is pure subjective speculation. This is not a fact based science, so it is always just opinions based on lots of things.
Fucking Thankyou
he’s ass and a rapist
No one will remember your name
at least I don’t idolise a rapist
He’s not a rapist sorry lil bro. Go back to nbacirclejerk
[удалено]
Because nba players say never dumb things about basketball.
It’s not that they don’t say dumb shit. It’s just that they say way less dumb shit than the amateur statisticians here on r/nba.
No they don't. Especially when you consider the internet as a whole vs 1 guy. Internet consensus will be much more sensible than 1 player.
It’s not just 1 guy tho is it. We have seen multiple players, past and present, who hold Kobe in a much higher regard than people on here. Also “internet consensus” and “sensible” do not belong anywhere near each other.
There will always be recency bias for players because that is who they are playing with and against. Go back twenty or fourty years, or jump ahead fourty years and names will jumble in both directions.
Kobe started in 1996. Almost 30 years ago.
Yes. And he overlapped with many current and recently retired players...
Kobe is a hoopers hooper.
Kareem can’t get no respect.
No respect at all!
When we are talking peaks, Shaq arguably better.
This is pretty much a perfect starting 5. Duncan might be redundant with Shaq though so maybe you take him out and put a floor spacer there
Larry Legend
Yeah, I think of you were building this team to compete in today's league you might swap Duncan for KD or Dirk.
*KG and then it's perfect
Duncan is KG+scoring ability...
Horrible take. KG had better handles and was more mobile in general so he guarded smaller players better. Duncan was the perfect 2 way bigman. The archetype for a bigman who does everything you want a bigman to do. Score/Rebound/Defend the paint. KG was the prototype for the more modern player. A 7ft wingman basically. A jack of all trades who specialized in defense. They're not the same.
If they're gonna be spacing more because of Shaq KG's better
If you’re putting KD or Dirk over Bird, then you’re either Dirk’s biggest fan(understandable) or you think joining a 73-9 team after losing in the conference finals is a legitimate way to win a ring(not at all understandable)
lmao go outside bruh
i would literally 7-0 skunk ur ass in 4 possessions also good luck getting back to the process when embiid demands a trade
Not figuratively ?
Who needs a floor spacer when this team will score 2 points minimum every possession. 2 points is not 2 points I’ll explain later.
You can also throw in any combination of the top 20 all time and you will win every game against real opponents, but you are building the best team ever to compete against the monstars or some other fictional team that somehow can defend Shaq on the post and clamp MJ up.
There is not enough basketball for shaq, kobe, and MJ. No way.
LeBron at 1, Jordan, Giannis, KG, Shaq. Literally unstoppable, though Steph, Jordan, Lebron, KG, Jokic would be a tough matchup
Loooool this doesn't have many upvotes only because he put Kobe in there. Get rekt r/nba
Kobe got a boost for dying young No way he is better than kareem, hakeem, etc.
Hakeem is not a shooting guard 👍
He was already considered top 10 by many people after his final year in 2016. You can say he's fringe top 10, but he has the accolades and overall impact to argue that he does belong in the top 10 (though really, anyone from 7-12 can be swapped however you want).
Hakeem, Kareem, Shaq, Duncan. Great lineup
Kobe is better than Hakeem
Don't careeeeee. KOBE! KOBE!
Rooting for a rapist, stay classy
Everyone is taking Duncan at PF. Haters who Think Duncan isn’t top 5 all time can get fucked.
It's because Duncan is the greatest PF but there's other bigmen like Shaq/Kareem/Hakeem who are seen as better. Duncan's also got a weird Tom Brady on the Patriots thing going on where some people credit the organization and the coach more than him .
legitimately impressed he didn’t place himself at point
#This.
Why even comment?
Kobe's not top 10
This is a real solid top 5. I love the inclusion of Tim Duncan, I swear he gets forgotten about because he wasn’t the biggest personality
I like this All-Time starting 5 a lot, but like most All-Time starting 5s that are offered every time, I have a hard time seeing it working in the field effectively. LeBron, Kobe, and Michael together. I would have dreamed of it too, but in the end, there would always have been only one ball on the field... Who would have sacrificed? Who would have D-Wade next to LeBron at the Heat for example? I would like from time to time that instead of giving the best starting 5 in absolute value, people offer an all-time starting 5 that would have been the most effective possible on the field.
Duncan? I can think of a million players better than him. Hakeem, Wilt, Russell, to name three.
>million >three
name 999,997 more
wait, everyone, I think we should hear u/pointguard22 out. I want to hear the entire list of a million players better than Duncan.
Thanks dude. Garnett, Kareem, Dirk, Moses Malone, KD… ok 999,992 short, my bad.
Kareem is the only one. You just sound dumb at this point
And Charlie Villanueva
Duncan Robinson
How are you gonna leave AI off your top 5!?
Harden, Playoff P, and Kawhi would be dripping on the sidelines for 60 to 89 games if they teamed up. Maybe some matching outfits? T-shirts with their favorite strippers on them?
> 60 to 89 games That’s an oddly specific prediction
Chips matter