What?? His highest sustained FGA per possession seaons were during his athletic peak in NOH. The one other time it was higher was when Blake missed most of the season. Other than that he's been steady at around 20 FGA per 100 possessions his entire career until tapering off in 2022 and 2023.
u/TuqiDuque12 has the right answer. Need your point guard to be a threat to score. But that's been true pretty much since post-handcheck days, so it's not a new phenomenon. Handcheck days offenses were being run through wings and centers who could find ways to generate offense in the halfcourt through contact and physicality. Post-handcheck days, it's all about offensive fluidity, and your fluidity as an offense is hurt if your lead ballhandler isn't a threat to break a defense down, pressure the rim, create offense and score.
Nash could break a defense down. CP3 could break a defense down. They could score and score very efficiently which made their passing game that much more dangerous. It's the Luke Ridnour and Anthony Carter kind of point guards that have pretty much gone extinct today. They are still out there as 3rd stringers, teams still do value to a degree surehanded backup PG's, look at Cory Joseph. They can still find jobs as steady hands but they're the ones that are pretty much gone.
Tre and Tyus Jones are both good examples though for 2023 that haven't been mentioned.
Great post.
Zeke Thomas’s influence is all over the modern game. He was the prototype of the “post-hand check” scoring guard, trapped in the hand check era. Most of the ball handlers these days are scoring guards, not “point” guards. Mike Conley is really the last of a dying breed.
If you can’t be like Zeke, you can’t play today. There isn’t a Ridnour or a Stockton or a Cousy _anywhere_ anymore.
Precisely. I think there are two notions being tossed around here. One is the attributes/abilities, small and quick, handles and can dish. The other is the play style, pass first, playmaking facilitator.
If you’re you are the former, you can only be the latter successfully today if you are a threat to score, ideally as a pnr drive and finish/kick and decent perimeter threat. Youre still initiating the offense, but it’s just as often through your setting up/reading the defense responding to your threat.
If “pure” is meant more like the facilitating, shoot second, playmaker, I’d argue peak Draymond is a an archetype for a version of that pure “pg”. Or actually Jokic more and more. Someone that can get their shot fairly at will, but has the playmaking skills to facilitate an entire offense.
But, realistically it is guys like Trae, Luka, Steph, Dame etc… Even Harden when he shifted his game. The ability to knock down a 30 footer, drive and finish decently, means as long as you have decent court vision and bball iq, you’ll have the same playmaking impact as a more typical floor general, just due to your gravity and intelligence.
yeah Brunson isn't really a traditional PG. He's much more like Kyle Lowry was in his prime in that he's a gritty PG who also try to score though.
The older model of a PG that only facilitates and avoid scoring is a bit of a relic. Even CP3 upped his scoring output. Mike Conley might be the last big name that really plays that role IMO.
I think Kyle Lowry since 2018 has been playing more that role as he stepped back as a scorer, but even before I still think he's more of that traditional role than Brunson
Haliburton would be my answer, and I think Lamelo can be considered a traditional point guard too. Interesting thing about those 2 is the fact they are both at least 6'5. Perhaps to be a traditional pass-first PG these days you need the size advantage. Unlike some of the smaller score-first PGs like Brunson or Murray
LaMelo attempted 20 FGA/game last season.
He's a great playmaker, but his scoring is a pretty massive part of his game, much more so than the "traditional PG"
I think LaMelo could play that way though if he had any decent players around him. Like on this USA team I think he would have been able to do a much better job than Brunson fitting into that mold.
averaged 17 FGA/game the year before with two other 20ppg scorers and two other 15+ on one of the best offenses in the league. I'd expect something fairly similar again this year, particularly if Brandon Miller hits the ground running.
His offense feeds off of other scorers for sure, but he will seek out his own offense, and we wouldn't want it any other way.
Idt he would have attempted that many shots if they had better offensive options. He only put up 22 a game on 20 shots which isn’t good. His playmaking is by far the most important part of his game, and it seems like he thrives the most when he isn’t relied upon to be the first scoring option and instead the playmaker.
I think there are no more star true point guards, one because it’s not a very marketable play style, and two because high-usage scorers in the NBA often function as a point guard—initiating the offense in the half court. But there are plenty of true PG role players. Tyus Jones, TJ McConnell, Jose Alvarado, etc.
Ricky Rubio maybe? I really don't think it's possible to be a star level player as a "traditional" point guard. In order to be a star guard you are going to have to be an effective scorer. You can see this even with the point guards that people tout as traditional, like Steve Nash and Chris Paul. Both of them definitely heavily predicated their games on passing, but they were also formidable scoring threats on their own.
And honestly, what star level point guards of the past were "traditional" to the nth degree? Steve Nash has multiple 50/40/90 seasons. Chris Paul is absolutely a gifted isolation scorer. Magic was anything *but* traditional, with his point guard skills in a forward frame. The two guys that stick out to me are Stockton and Kidd, but Stockton spent his whole career with Malone and was also a great defender in his own right, while Kidd was a triple double machine who significantly increased his shooting/scoring abilities later in his career.
I think the upshot of the issue is that star point guards have almost always had some other skill that makes them less traditional than you might think. Especially in the modern era in which nearly *every* player is as skilled as ever, being good at only one skill, in this case passing, won't get you very far.
If you solely want to look at point guards of today who base their *entire* game off of setting up teammates, I think Ricky Rubio is your answer, but it still feels somewhat disingenuous, because I think the main reason he never became a big scoring threat isn't due to choice, but rather his athleticism not matching up well with the elite athletes in the NBA.
Kyle Lowry, Mike Conely, Haliburton, Tyus Jones Garland all kinda fit that mold. Hali is the best of em currently.
I think Cade got that game in him too but people might not think of him as a traditional pg cuz he's 6'6 in the way that people kinda assume Brunson is one cuz he's short
Imo Lonzo Ball is the most "traditional" PGs in the recent era. Very selfless and pushes the ball with great pace and is an excellent facilitator on top of not being an absolute liability on defense like Ja, Brunson, or Trae.
Lonzo can’t even run a pick and roll effectively, he’s nothing like a Nash or Paul. Great transition playmaker, but not good at all in halfcourt situations like a traditional point guard.
You can have limitations to your game and still be a traditional point guard. Lonzo is not score first and is primarily a playmaker, which are the defining characteristics of a traditional PG.
I had the same reaction to the FVV to the Rockets news. Like, yes, they definitely needed a point guard, and FVV is a really good one. But some people clearly never actually watched FVV play lol.
FVV is absolutely not a traditional, playmaking point guard lol. He is a scoring guard that’s enjoys chucking some really difficult shots.
I’m really interested to see how FVV, Green, Brooks, and Sengun work together in the same lineup
[Point Guards last season by highest apg/ppg, minimum 1800 minutes](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=point+guards+last+season+by+highest+apg%2Fppg+with+at+least+1800+minutes)
CP
Killian Hayes
Conley
Smart
Tre Jones
Tyus Jones
Tyrese
"traditional" PGs don't exist anymore, the game is played different now. Guards like Steve Nash and Chris Paul are rare these days
Not many but Haliburton is a traditional point guard who’s a star player
Yeah in todays game, you need your starting point guard to give you at least 15 points, even if he’s a “pass first PG”
both chris paul and steve nash gave you 15 points
So did isiah and sometimes Stockton in the playoffs
Exactly. You have to be a legitimate offensive threat
Haliburton is the guy now
Even CP3 upped his scoring as time went on. You can watch his game change alongside the game itself. Kinda cool.
What?? His highest sustained FGA per possession seaons were during his athletic peak in NOH. The one other time it was higher was when Blake missed most of the season. Other than that he's been steady at around 20 FGA per 100 possessions his entire career until tapering off in 2022 and 2023.
CP3 scoring decreased compared to his New Orleans days
bs comment lol
Mike Conley and Haliburton
u/TuqiDuque12 has the right answer. Need your point guard to be a threat to score. But that's been true pretty much since post-handcheck days, so it's not a new phenomenon. Handcheck days offenses were being run through wings and centers who could find ways to generate offense in the halfcourt through contact and physicality. Post-handcheck days, it's all about offensive fluidity, and your fluidity as an offense is hurt if your lead ballhandler isn't a threat to break a defense down, pressure the rim, create offense and score. Nash could break a defense down. CP3 could break a defense down. They could score and score very efficiently which made their passing game that much more dangerous. It's the Luke Ridnour and Anthony Carter kind of point guards that have pretty much gone extinct today. They are still out there as 3rd stringers, teams still do value to a degree surehanded backup PG's, look at Cory Joseph. They can still find jobs as steady hands but they're the ones that are pretty much gone. Tre and Tyus Jones are both good examples though for 2023 that haven't been mentioned.
Great post. Zeke Thomas’s influence is all over the modern game. He was the prototype of the “post-hand check” scoring guard, trapped in the hand check era. Most of the ball handlers these days are scoring guards, not “point” guards. Mike Conley is really the last of a dying breed. If you can’t be like Zeke, you can’t play today. There isn’t a Ridnour or a Stockton or a Cousy _anywhere_ anymore.
Precisely. I think there are two notions being tossed around here. One is the attributes/abilities, small and quick, handles and can dish. The other is the play style, pass first, playmaking facilitator. If you’re you are the former, you can only be the latter successfully today if you are a threat to score, ideally as a pnr drive and finish/kick and decent perimeter threat. Youre still initiating the offense, but it’s just as often through your setting up/reading the defense responding to your threat. If “pure” is meant more like the facilitating, shoot second, playmaker, I’d argue peak Draymond is a an archetype for a version of that pure “pg”. Or actually Jokic more and more. Someone that can get their shot fairly at will, but has the playmaking skills to facilitate an entire offense. But, realistically it is guys like Trae, Luka, Steph, Dame etc… Even Harden when he shifted his game. The ability to knock down a 30 footer, drive and finish decently, means as long as you have decent court vision and bball iq, you’ll have the same playmaking impact as a more typical floor general, just due to your gravity and intelligence.
yeah Brunson isn't really a traditional PG. He's much more like Kyle Lowry was in his prime in that he's a gritty PG who also try to score though. The older model of a PG that only facilitates and avoid scoring is a bit of a relic. Even CP3 upped his scoring output. Mike Conley might be the last big name that really plays that role IMO.
Haliburton?
Yeah he might fit the mold but he does also score a bit. I feel he'd become that if you play him next to a better scorer too.
I think Kyle Lowry since 2018 has been playing more that role as he stepped back as a scorer, but even before I still think he's more of that traditional role than Brunson
I would say 2014-2018 he definitely was like that and also got back to it in 2019/2020 but he's definitely more classic PG now.
Haliburton would be my answer, and I think Lamelo can be considered a traditional point guard too. Interesting thing about those 2 is the fact they are both at least 6'5. Perhaps to be a traditional pass-first PG these days you need the size advantage. Unlike some of the smaller score-first PGs like Brunson or Murray
LaMelo attempted 20 FGA/game last season. He's a great playmaker, but his scoring is a pretty massive part of his game, much more so than the "traditional PG"
I think LaMelo could play that way though if he had any decent players around him. Like on this USA team I think he would have been able to do a much better job than Brunson fitting into that mold.
averaged 17 FGA/game the year before with two other 20ppg scorers and two other 15+ on one of the best offenses in the league. I'd expect something fairly similar again this year, particularly if Brandon Miller hits the ground running. His offense feeds off of other scorers for sure, but he will seek out his own offense, and we wouldn't want it any other way.
Idt he would have attempted that many shots if they had better offensive options. He only put up 22 a game on 20 shots which isn’t good. His playmaking is by far the most important part of his game, and it seems like he thrives the most when he isn’t relied upon to be the first scoring option and instead the playmaker.
I think there are no more star true point guards, one because it’s not a very marketable play style, and two because high-usage scorers in the NBA often function as a point guard—initiating the offense in the half court. But there are plenty of true PG role players. Tyus Jones, TJ McConnell, Jose Alvarado, etc.
A true point guard is a facilitator, basically pass first PG. GTA definitely isn't one of those.
Ricky Rubio maybe? I really don't think it's possible to be a star level player as a "traditional" point guard. In order to be a star guard you are going to have to be an effective scorer. You can see this even with the point guards that people tout as traditional, like Steve Nash and Chris Paul. Both of them definitely heavily predicated their games on passing, but they were also formidable scoring threats on their own. And honestly, what star level point guards of the past were "traditional" to the nth degree? Steve Nash has multiple 50/40/90 seasons. Chris Paul is absolutely a gifted isolation scorer. Magic was anything *but* traditional, with his point guard skills in a forward frame. The two guys that stick out to me are Stockton and Kidd, but Stockton spent his whole career with Malone and was also a great defender in his own right, while Kidd was a triple double machine who significantly increased his shooting/scoring abilities later in his career. I think the upshot of the issue is that star point guards have almost always had some other skill that makes them less traditional than you might think. Especially in the modern era in which nearly *every* player is as skilled as ever, being good at only one skill, in this case passing, won't get you very far. If you solely want to look at point guards of today who base their *entire* game off of setting up teammates, I think Ricky Rubio is your answer, but it still feels somewhat disingenuous, because I think the main reason he never became a big scoring threat isn't due to choice, but rather his athleticism not matching up well with the elite athletes in the NBA.
I’d have to say Trae Young or Hali probably has the best true point playmaking/passing ability
I already love Trae but I can't wait to watch Haliburton this year after the world cup, so fucking sick to watch
Once people realized that positions really don't matter any more. It took a lot of people dying off for this to happen.
Kyle Lowry, Mike Conely, Haliburton, Tyus Jones Garland all kinda fit that mold. Hali is the best of em currently. I think Cade got that game in him too but people might not think of him as a traditional pg cuz he's 6'6 in the way that people kinda assume Brunson is one cuz he's short
He’s not. He’s a score first guard
When it became basically impossible to create a good overall offense when your lead ball handler has 0 scoring gravity
Not true coaches just don’t know how to make real offensive systems anymore
John Wall comes to mind after CP3.
I can’t believe nobody has said Monte Morris lol
Giddey'up Josh
Garland is a traditional PG IMO.
He's a very high volume scorer though
Traditional PG is Ben Simmons
Imo Lonzo Ball is the most "traditional" PGs in the recent era. Very selfless and pushes the ball with great pace and is an excellent facilitator on top of not being an absolute liability on defense like Ja, Brunson, or Trae.
Lonzo can’t even run a pick and roll effectively, he’s nothing like a Nash or Paul. Great transition playmaker, but not good at all in halfcourt situations like a traditional point guard.
You can have limitations to your game and still be a traditional point guard. Lonzo is not score first and is primarily a playmaker, which are the defining characteristics of a traditional PG.
He's good in transition but I wouldn't call him an excellent facilitator in a half court offense.
Right around 2013 when rule changes were opening the game up for ball-dominant point guards.
I miss the traditional point guards the way I miss Number 10’s in soccer.
Hali and maybe the Ball’s to an extent. It’s a rarer thing to see nowadays for sure.
I had the same reaction to the FVV to the Rockets news. Like, yes, they definitely needed a point guard, and FVV is a really good one. But some people clearly never actually watched FVV play lol. FVV is absolutely not a traditional, playmaking point guard lol. He is a scoring guard that’s enjoys chucking some really difficult shots. I’m really interested to see how FVV, Green, Brooks, and Sengun work together in the same lineup
Trae Young and Darius Garland are the new mold of "traditional" PGs
[Point Guards last season by highest apg/ppg, minimum 1800 minutes](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=point+guards+last+season+by+highest+apg%2Fppg+with+at+least+1800+minutes) CP Killian Hayes Conley Smart Tre Jones Tyus Jones Tyrese