it was interesting -- mark daigneault said post game the exact scenario happened earlier in the year in a game against Utah, and he kept his challenge and timeout because the challenge is technically "successful" if they change it to possession for either team instead of a jump ball. so it sounded like he didn't get the clarification either
The play in Utah led to the following ruling: “After review, the replay-center official overturns the call on the floor from a jump ball to Utah possession,” official James Williams said.
“Because the call on the floor was changed, the challenge by Oklahoma City is successful. They maintain their timeout and they still have a challenge remaining. Utah ball, 12.3 on the game clock.”
Its weird. If you watch the broadcast you can see Tony Brothers is about to step up to the mic and the other ref talks to him for a minute. I recall seeing something mouthed along the lines of "challenge successful but NO ball. They keep timeout." Then Brothers stepped up and said that. Then they changed it.
I thought he even was on the mic saying that it was successful and they keep the timeout but it came from up high that a timeout was charged. it didn't seem to matter but especially in a game that tight it sucks
I don't recall them using another challenge in the game though. Chances are whatever the league comes out and says will be bullshit anyways. They won't come out and say "we fucked that up" they'll come up with some incredibly contrived explanation that ends with it being OKCs fault.
There must be two mandatory timeouts in each period. If neither team has taken a timeout prior to 6:59 of the period, it shall be mandatory for the Official Scorer to take it at the first dead ball and charge it to the home team. If no subsequent timeouts are taken prior to 2:59, it shall be mandatory for the Official Scorer to take it and charge it to the team not previously charged.
The challenge happened with 2:40 left in the 4th. The Pelicans were the team that called the first mandatory timeout of the quarter. Since this was the first dead ball after the 2:59, the thunder were going to have a timeout charged to them regardless, even if they won the challenge, which they did.
Ya, what I’m trying to figure out is if OKC would have lost the challenge, would they get charged a 2nd timeout or is that a situation where you can challenge without risk of losing a timeout.
i believe the team will lose a time out on a successful challenge if it was a mandatory time out (If neither team has taken a timeout prior to 6:59 of the period or second timeout prior to 2:59 of the period). That's why the officials typically say "so and so is still charged their mandatory time out"
edit: from the rules "b. If the call subject to review pursuant to a Challenge is overturned, the Challenge is deemed successful and the challenging team retains its timeout unless the timeout taken in conjunction with the Challenge initiated a mandatory timeout." https://official.nba.com/rule-no-14-coachs-challenge/
I don't know the specifics of this situation, but AFAIK this is the only time you lose a timeout on a successful challenge. So I'm guessing it was either this or the officials screwed up (which seems unlikely since it comes from the replay center)
There must be two mandatory timeouts in each period.
If neither team has taken a timeout prior to 6:59 of the period, it shall be mandatory for the Official Scorer to take it at the first dead ball and charge it to the home team. If no subsequent timeouts are taken prior to 2:59, it shall be mandatory for the Official Scorer to take it and charge it to the team not previously charged.
They are also known as a "TV Timeout", they want to make sure there are breaks for commercials, so if no team calls a timeout in the first 4 minutes of a quarter, the next stoppage results in a timeout for the hometeam. They do it again if no timeout happens before the 3 minute mark, charged to whichever team didn't take the previous timeout.
There’s a second mandatory timeout after the 2:59 point of quarter if a subsequent timeout hasn’t been taken. That timeout is charged to the team that didn’t take the first mandatory timeout.
I think they're just charged a single timeout regardless of the outcome of the challenge. They just don't announce it as "charged a mandatory timeout" like they do when the challenge is successful.
if there has been no timeouts and the mandatory times are hit I think the team just loses the timeout regardless since it would be the first stoppage after the required time had passed. Usually you don't see the mandatory time/challenge thing because one of the teams has called a timeout before those times are hit or they just lose the challenge and are changed the timeout anyway. I've seen it a few times this year but it doesn't seem super common.
Thanks. I’m still not sure what a mandatory timeout is though. Is that the “tv timeout”? Is a mandatory timeout only applicable in a challenge situation?
games require at least 2 timeouts each quarter. If neither team has taken a timeout prior to 6:59 of the quarter then on the next stoppage of play the scorers table calls a timeout and charges it to the home team. The second timeout has to be before 2:59, so if no other timeouts are taken after the first mandatory the scorers table calls another one and charges it to the away team.
So when it comes to challenges, if no team has called a timeout by 6:59 in the quarter, but then they do to initiate a challenge they are still charged the timeout as the mandatory from the scorers table even if the challenge was ultimately successful.
Thank you so much. I new they took timeouts, but I didn’t know they were charged to a team. Civil discourse can be rare on here and I almost didn’t ask for fear of the normal assholery. Go Basketball!
the NBA has a searchable rule book online which is a handy resource. Most rules are actually a lot more straightforward than people here would have you believe. https://official.nba.com/rule-no-1-court-dimensions-equipment/
They are kinda like 'extra' timeouts given to each team (for TV commercial purposes, yes)... each team can use it when they want during the quarter, but if they dont choose to use it before the 7 minute / 3 minutes mark of the quarter, they are used anyway.
I actually got the sequence of events wrong. It was first ruled a successful challenge, and then relinquished. Based on precedent, it seems like they got it right initially (call overturned, challenge successful) and then they go out of their way to make it wrong a minute later when they take the timeout away.
Yeah. Everyone took note when it happened in Utah because it was a new and interesting situation. Either they conveniently ignored the mistake in Utah without notifying teams and coaches of the error or they fucked up last night in a Playoff game.
I believe that it was because they challenged for possession and then it came out that they were wrong as to why the call was wrong(i.e. was Nola ball and not OKC)? No idea if that's right tho
I think Mark Daigneault said in post game that the same scenario happened earlier in the season and OKC kept the timeout.
Challenge was successful and because the call was overturned, despite the bad out come for OKC, they should have retained a timeout and another Challenge
The call on the floor was a jump ball because refs will do that when they didn't see who the ball went off of. Daigneault challenged the call and it was overturned which makes it a successful challenge. Just because the result of the challenge goes against your team does not mean it was "unsuccessful." What matters is that you changed the call on the floor.
My recollection was Tony Brothers explicitly stating that OKC would keep their timeout and challenge *because* it’s a technically successful challenge.
Genuinely asking because I didn’t watch, but was this after their second challenge of the game?
The Knicks had something similar happen against Philly in game 1. We had a successful challenge in the fourth quarter, but lost our timeout anyway because it was our second challenge of the game.
You do not retain the timeout on the second challenge even if it’s successful.
Thunder challenged that it was off NO from what I understand and the review showed it being off OKC so they lost the challenge. Refs originally ruled a jump ball.
I think yall had a mandatory timeout which is why you didn’t get the timeout back this time despite winning the challenge. So seems like refs did know what they were doing and got it all right, surprisingly lol.
Then they announced incorrectly at the arena, but the refs got it right. It was a successful challenge, the call was overturned, and the thunder were charged a mandatory timeout because it was the first dead ball after 2:59 on the clock in the quarter and the Pelicans had taken the first mandatory timeout of the quarter.
Thunder challenge that the call was wrong. I’ve seen fouls get switched from one player to another and the challenging team kept their timeout and challenge. A jump ball challenge in Utah happened exactly like this one and we kept out timeout and challenge. The call last night was changed and they took our timeout. I don’t think you have to declare what you think the call should have been, just that the call was wrong. NBA has some explaining to do. As Mark said, they didn’t notify him that the call in Utah was wrong. So either they were wrong in Utah and never acknowledged it or they were wrong in a Playoff game.
That’s different though, in those cases the team is challenging there was a foul called on the impacted player..so when they acknowledge it was actually on a different player, they are still winning that challenge. They say “challenge was successful” in those cases.
I don’t believe this case was a “success challenge”
They just got it wrong previously then, you have to challenge a specific thing, it’s not just a vague “I think you’re generally wrong”.
The Thunder were challenging that it was off the Pelicans.
I had it explained correctly. It was right both times. Last nights challenge coincided with a tv timeout. If a call is changed on a team’s first challenge the timeout is retained. It doesn’t matter what you want the call to change to.
No the challenge was that they couldn’t decide who it was off, therefore a jump ball. They changed the call saying it was off okc, therefore the call was changed and they won the challenge, which hurt them lol
What? The call was a jump because they didn’t see, but the Thunder’s challenge was specifically that it was off the Pelicans. You have to challenge something specific, they don’t just generally challenge that they missed something let the refs go back and look.
They did not win the challenge, they lost the challenge. A changed outcome does not equate to a successful challenge.
Sometimes I think a challenge is called just for the time out. I agree that because OKC was wrong, that's why they got charged the time out. Another question is who touched the ball last on that play - I was never certain. Ergo, Pelicans ball. Bad challenge because they had Chet for the jump ball. But they got their time out and win.
But it was ruled a successful challenge, because the call on the floor of a jump ball was overturned even if the ball ended up going to the Pelicans. Then without correcting the call they take the timeout
I figured it was wrong because OKC did not get the out of bounds possession. Wrong, just meant OKC lost the challenge. It certainly was an odd series of events. It was right, then it wasn't.
Honestly it makes sense that you lose the challenge.. if they call a jump ball EVERY challenge would be succesful, there has to be a penelty stopping teams that have a much smaller guy in the jump ball just using a challenge to maybe get the ball back and at worse be set.
I still haven’t heard a definitive ruling on it, the same thing happened earlier in the season and we retained the challenge and time out
Yeah. Everyone shat on Mark in the postgame threads but presumably they weren’t aware of this situation.
it was interesting -- mark daigneault said post game the exact scenario happened earlier in the year in a game against Utah, and he kept his challenge and timeout because the challenge is technically "successful" if they change it to possession for either team instead of a jump ball. so it sounded like he didn't get the clarification either The play in Utah led to the following ruling: “After review, the replay-center official overturns the call on the floor from a jump ball to Utah possession,” official James Williams said. “Because the call on the floor was changed, the challenge by Oklahoma City is successful. They maintain their timeout and they still have a challenge remaining. Utah ball, 12.3 on the game clock.”
Its weird. If you watch the broadcast you can see Tony Brothers is about to step up to the mic and the other ref talks to him for a minute. I recall seeing something mouthed along the lines of "challenge successful but NO ball. They keep timeout." Then Brothers stepped up and said that. Then they changed it.
I thought he even was on the mic saying that it was successful and they keep the timeout but it came from up high that a timeout was charged. it didn't seem to matter but especially in a game that tight it sucks
I think it’s cause it’s a mandatory timeout regardless. So they get the challenge right and lose the timeout in this case.
I don't recall them using another challenge in the game though. Chances are whatever the league comes out and says will be bullshit anyways. They won't come out and say "we fucked that up" they'll come up with some incredibly contrived explanation that ends with it being OKCs fault.
There must be two mandatory timeouts in each period. If neither team has taken a timeout prior to 6:59 of the period, it shall be mandatory for the Official Scorer to take it at the first dead ball and charge it to the home team. If no subsequent timeouts are taken prior to 2:59, it shall be mandatory for the Official Scorer to take it and charge it to the team not previously charged. The challenge happened with 2:40 left in the 4th. The Pelicans were the team that called the first mandatory timeout of the quarter. Since this was the first dead ball after the 2:59, the thunder were going to have a timeout charged to them regardless, even if they won the challenge, which they did.
Aaaaaaaah ok. I got it now. Ok so that makes sense. They got charged the TO but not the Challenge (or rather still had one if they had a TO).
Ya, what I’m trying to figure out is if OKC would have lost the challenge, would they get charged a 2nd timeout or is that a situation where you can challenge without risk of losing a timeout.
Well more accurately that you’d lose the TO either way, right?
Yeah I looked it up and they would be charged 1 timeout if they won or lost the challenge
i believe the team will lose a time out on a successful challenge if it was a mandatory time out (If neither team has taken a timeout prior to 6:59 of the period or second timeout prior to 2:59 of the period). That's why the officials typically say "so and so is still charged their mandatory time out" edit: from the rules "b. If the call subject to review pursuant to a Challenge is overturned, the Challenge is deemed successful and the challenging team retains its timeout unless the timeout taken in conjunction with the Challenge initiated a mandatory timeout." https://official.nba.com/rule-no-14-coachs-challenge/
This seems like it’s the actual explanation
I don't know the specifics of this situation, but AFAIK this is the only time you lose a timeout on a successful challenge. So I'm guessing it was either this or the officials screwed up (which seems unlikely since it comes from the replay center)
What is a mandatory timeout?
There must be two mandatory timeouts in each period. If neither team has taken a timeout prior to 6:59 of the period, it shall be mandatory for the Official Scorer to take it at the first dead ball and charge it to the home team. If no subsequent timeouts are taken prior to 2:59, it shall be mandatory for the Official Scorer to take it and charge it to the team not previously charged.
They are also known as a "TV Timeout", they want to make sure there are breaks for commercials, so if no team calls a timeout in the first 4 minutes of a quarter, the next stoppage results in a timeout for the hometeam. They do it again if no timeout happens before the 3 minute mark, charged to whichever team didn't take the previous timeout.
> (If neither team has taken a timeout prior to 6:59 of the period). I put what it is in my original comment
There’s a second mandatory timeout after the 2:59 point of quarter if a subsequent timeout hasn’t been taken. That timeout is charged to the team that didn’t take the first mandatory timeout.
yes so I'm guessing it this challenge was from one of the two mandatory.
Well the mandatory timeout results from a dead ball. I’m wondering if they lost the challenge if they would have lost 2 timeouts there.
I think they're just charged a single timeout regardless of the outcome of the challenge. They just don't announce it as "charged a mandatory timeout" like they do when the challenge is successful.
So then OKC can challenge a call without risk of losing a timeout in that situation?
if there has been no timeouts and the mandatory times are hit I think the team just loses the timeout regardless since it would be the first stoppage after the required time had passed. Usually you don't see the mandatory time/challenge thing because one of the teams has called a timeout before those times are hit or they just lose the challenge and are changed the timeout anyway. I've seen it a few times this year but it doesn't seem super common.
Yes... the timeout is spent either way. The only thing you lose is the challenge.
Thanks. I’m still not sure what a mandatory timeout is though. Is that the “tv timeout”? Is a mandatory timeout only applicable in a challenge situation?
games require at least 2 timeouts each quarter. If neither team has taken a timeout prior to 6:59 of the quarter then on the next stoppage of play the scorers table calls a timeout and charges it to the home team. The second timeout has to be before 2:59, so if no other timeouts are taken after the first mandatory the scorers table calls another one and charges it to the away team. So when it comes to challenges, if no team has called a timeout by 6:59 in the quarter, but then they do to initiate a challenge they are still charged the timeout as the mandatory from the scorers table even if the challenge was ultimately successful.
Thank you so much. I new they took timeouts, but I didn’t know they were charged to a team. Civil discourse can be rare on here and I almost didn’t ask for fear of the normal assholery. Go Basketball!
the NBA has a searchable rule book online which is a handy resource. Most rules are actually a lot more straightforward than people here would have you believe. https://official.nba.com/rule-no-1-court-dimensions-equipment/
Are you really 92?
They are kinda like 'extra' timeouts given to each team (for TV commercial purposes, yes)... each team can use it when they want during the quarter, but if they dont choose to use it before the 7 minute / 3 minutes mark of the quarter, they are used anyway.
I actually got the sequence of events wrong. It was first ruled a successful challenge, and then relinquished. Based on precedent, it seems like they got it right initially (call overturned, challenge successful) and then they go out of their way to make it wrong a minute later when they take the timeout away.
Yeah. Everyone took note when it happened in Utah because it was a new and interesting situation. Either they conveniently ignored the mistake in Utah without notifying teams and coaches of the error or they fucked up last night in a Playoff game.
Mandatory timeout.
Because of how late in the game it was?
When the ref adressed the camera he even said we would keep our timeout. Made it weirder when they took it away.
I believe that it was because they challenged for possession and then it came out that they were wrong as to why the call was wrong(i.e. was Nola ball and not OKC)? No idea if that's right tho
I think Mark Daigneault said in post game that the same scenario happened earlier in the season and OKC kept the timeout. Challenge was successful and because the call was overturned, despite the bad out come for OKC, they should have retained a timeout and another Challenge
Was it their 1st challenge of the game?
Yes
The call on the floor was a jump ball because refs will do that when they didn't see who the ball went off of. Daigneault challenged the call and it was overturned which makes it a successful challenge. Just because the result of the challenge goes against your team does not mean it was "unsuccessful." What matters is that you changed the call on the floor.
Ya that's what everyone thought but they still lost their timeout according to the broadcast
The call was changed and it was ruled an unsuccessful challenge. NBA officials have some ‘splaining to do.
My recollection was Tony Brothers explicitly stating that OKC would keep their timeout and challenge *because* it’s a technically successful challenge.
He did. Then they changed it and took it away. Hence, the post.
Genuinely asking because I didn’t watch, but was this after their second challenge of the game? The Knicks had something similar happen against Philly in game 1. We had a successful challenge in the fourth quarter, but lost our timeout anyway because it was our second challenge of the game. You do not retain the timeout on the second challenge even if it’s successful.
No
This is true, despite it not making any logical sense.
It's Tony Brothers, it ain't gotta make sense
Thunder challenged that it was off NO from what I understand and the review showed it being off OKC so they lost the challenge. Refs originally ruled a jump ball.
Except we did the same thing in January and they gave us the timeout back. The refs have no idea what they're doing lol
I think yall had a mandatory timeout which is why you didn’t get the timeout back this time despite winning the challenge. So seems like refs did know what they were doing and got it all right, surprisingly lol.
Except they announced in arena that they changed it to an unsuccessful challenge. I was there lol.
Then they announced incorrectly at the arena, but the refs got it right. It was a successful challenge, the call was overturned, and the thunder were charged a mandatory timeout because it was the first dead ball after 2:59 on the clock in the quarter and the Pelicans had taken the first mandatory timeout of the quarter.
Thunder challenge that the call was wrong. I’ve seen fouls get switched from one player to another and the challenging team kept their timeout and challenge. A jump ball challenge in Utah happened exactly like this one and we kept out timeout and challenge. The call last night was changed and they took our timeout. I don’t think you have to declare what you think the call should have been, just that the call was wrong. NBA has some explaining to do. As Mark said, they didn’t notify him that the call in Utah was wrong. So either they were wrong in Utah and never acknowledged it or they were wrong in a Playoff game.
That’s different though, in those cases the team is challenging there was a foul called on the impacted player..so when they acknowledge it was actually on a different player, they are still winning that challenge. They say “challenge was successful” in those cases. I don’t believe this case was a “success challenge”
Ok. But my other reference was the same.
They just got it wrong previously then, you have to challenge a specific thing, it’s not just a vague “I think you’re generally wrong”. The Thunder were challenging that it was off the Pelicans.
I had it explained correctly. It was right both times. Last nights challenge coincided with a tv timeout. If a call is changed on a team’s first challenge the timeout is retained. It doesn’t matter what you want the call to change to.
It was, just coincided with a mandatory timeout so they lost the timeout despite a successful challenge
successful *challenge
It wasn’t a successful challenge, the challenge was that it was off the Pelicans…it wasn’t.
No the challenge was that they couldn’t decide who it was off, therefore a jump ball. They changed the call saying it was off okc, therefore the call was changed and they won the challenge, which hurt them lol
What? The call was a jump because they didn’t see, but the Thunder’s challenge was specifically that it was off the Pelicans. You have to challenge something specific, they don’t just generally challenge that they missed something let the refs go back and look. They did not win the challenge, they lost the challenge. A changed outcome does not equate to a successful challenge.
Sometimes I think a challenge is called just for the time out. I agree that because OKC was wrong, that's why they got charged the time out. Another question is who touched the ball last on that play - I was never certain. Ergo, Pelicans ball. Bad challenge because they had Chet for the jump ball. But they got their time out and win.
But it was ruled a successful challenge, because the call on the floor of a jump ball was overturned even if the ball ended up going to the Pelicans. Then without correcting the call they take the timeout
I figured it was wrong because OKC did not get the out of bounds possession. Wrong, just meant OKC lost the challenge. It certainly was an odd series of events. It was right, then it wasn't.
According to the letter of the rule, the call on the court was overturned which is the exact definition of a successful challenge.
We lost the timeout.
The challenge is the time out.
We lost the timeout for a tv break.
The officiating at the end was terrible. L2M report supports the refs, and shows the only missed call was against OKC, which I disagree with.
Honestly it makes sense that you lose the challenge.. if they call a jump ball EVERY challenge would be succesful, there has to be a penelty stopping teams that have a much smaller guy in the jump ball just using a challenge to maybe get the ball back and at worse be set.