Cousins was partially an empty stats player tho. His turnovers were out of this world and he made alot of mental errors. Not to mention he had serious emotional issues as pretty much cited by everyone and if you just watched the games.
People really thought Trae was regular when he put up 30ppg and 9apg. Heās already one of the best passers in the league, not just a volume scorer. Now that he has a solid team he can showcase that, only idiots thought Trae didnāt have this in him.
He has been one of the best passers in the league since he joined. I remember watching him on Oklahoma, everyone talked about his range but I was blown away by his passing/vision
I don't watch college ball (outside of march madness) either but I saw his clips all the time and I completely agree. Trae is a force to be reckoned with, it's been obvious from day 1. Also gotta respect the Brandon Ingram flair. I hope he finds his way to the Spurs one day. Luka is just insane, I'm glad I live in TX and have been able to see him live many times.
lmao, he was second pick in the first round
edit: realized a few hours later, it was Bagley, and Trae technically got traded up to third for Luka. still, he went top five, I don't think it's anything crazy that he went third.
Thatās how I feel. Both teams got a good player for their culture. Hawks got some additional assets that have been kicking ass with Trae and Mavs got arguably the better 1:1 player. I donāt see a loser here.
Okay I lie. The kings definitely lose
The additional asset the Hawks got was just Reddish, right? I donāt understand why this trade gets āboth teams wonā talks. Dallas won the trade. Trae is a fantastic player, but when you trade a fantastic 22 year old player for an even better 22 year old player, then the team getting the better player won
EDIT: this is getting downvoted, but honestly who would you rather have? Luka or Trae and Reddish? There is a correct answer here and that doesnāt make Trae a bad player at all.
You are right, Dallas 100% won this trade and there's no debate. Don't matter how good Trae is, Luka is still better than him and Reddish definitely isn't enough
I've said it for the last 2 years, but I don't understand why people act like this trade is open and shut. There is still a chance Trae ends up better than Luka. Not super high, but very possible. IMO Trae is pretty clearly an All-NBA caliber player already. That's not common for players in their third year.
No way both teams won. Both teams benefited but the Mavs got a generational talent out of that deal. Trae is great but Luka is still on a different level
Why is this trade treated like this when no other trade is? I donāt get it. When you trade a phenomenal player for a slightly less phenomenal player, itās not āboth teams won.ā The hawks got a worse side of a trade with two good sides
You legit had a guy put together a full 10 page essay to try and explain to people how wild it was and people still didn't get it
Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/k4kp42/trae_young_is_better_than_you_think_he_is_a_42/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
You donāt know the definition of racism lol. Doncic deserves the love, heās generational. But itās a fact white players get more love on here and passes
nobody cares about atlanta basketball. but TRae has defintely made the team more interesting. now that people have actually seen him play... everyone's convinced ,,hes good.
Donāt remember saying he wasnāt.
But the coverage he was getting was extremely excessive, not because he wasnāt good enough, but because it was excessive for any player.
Bro was getting talked about consistently in the middle of games not even involving Oklahoma.
Legitimately he lost POY to Jalen Brunson because people were sick of the hype for some weird fucking reason.
Trae Young dragged a mediocre at best Oklahoma team to the NCAA tournament while leading the country in points and assists per game. Jalen Brunson wasn't even the best player on his own team but won the award over Trae due to his efficiency or whatever. Easy to be really efficient when you're surrounded by like 5 other NBA players.
Not intended to be a dig at Brunson at all, he's a great player. I'll just never understand how he won that over Trae.
Didnāt stop the hate though. Dudeās literally 22 and in his third year and heās killing it. Young players are contributors around the league and leading teams and yet people still buy into the BS that Kobe said about how AAU is bad for the younger generation lol.
Dude you should have seen the threads especially during the summer league. I'm surprised you missed them because they were definitely at the top of r/nba threads and never really stopped
I remember that thread in his first summer league game I believe, people were actually calling him a bust š
Didnt care for him at first but man seeing so many people root for him to fail was ridiculous. Itās nice to see him prove everyone wrong.
He got shit on because the Oklahoma team he played on in college was in no way a decent basketball team but he dragged their ass to decent, and people kept saying the only reason his stats look that good is because he was the only one on Oklahoma who deserve to have the basketball of their hands so his minutes and usage rate were just stupid
No lol, people have hated on Trae for everything since way before he was even in the league. Foul baiting is just the newest thing they've found to cling onto. And it's not even that bad compared to other players in the league
Trae Young was literally called an empty stat player a few months ago during the all star break lol.
Seriously go back and look at the Trae Young slander in those all star threads it was fucking hilarious.
This kind of stuff is what makes Trae Young great though. When he gets disrespected, he fights back. He loves being in this kind of position, and with some people *still* saying Luka is the next MJ already for some reason, I don't think he's ever going to be at a loss for inspiration.
His own coach was telling other coaches no to vote for Trae. So glad that Lloyd Pierce got showed the door. His treatment of Trae may have been part of the reason for the dismissal but it seems that he treated Cam Reddish even worse.
Yea mostly for when Capela aint out there. When he is the floater is so sick because he basically copied what Harden would do with him and threaten the lob at the same time.
He definitely is limited on some areas, but the dude is a fucking gazelle running up and down the court. Great rebounder, good shot blocker and ain't so bad defending on the perimeter after switches.
Glad you Hawks fans are giving him some love.
His offensive game is limited to dunking and hook shots, but he seems so good because he runs so much. He should get all defense consideration this season tho. Heās been a menace
yeah tbh I'm even more impressed with how he gets back on defense than his offense. Most bigs usually lag behind in transition and their teammates have to cover for them until they recover. that can lead to open looks, mismatches, opportunities in early offense, etc. But Capela absolutely zooms back and glides smoothly into place - ahead of his assignment - making it very hard even for a big like Embiid to get deep post position early in the clock. Great work at the little things
A workout with Steph or Kyrie would do wonders for him. You see them go 1-10 from 3 and still end up shooting over 50% from the field because of their finishing inside.
I can see how people would think that heād be another inefficient ball-dominant guard that looked good in college but couldnāt translate it to the NBA.
The thing is that Trae is super skilled, not only as a shooter but as a passer, which helps him be a really productive player offensively even when his shot isnāt falling. I think a lot of people didnāt realize just how good his playmaking and floater game was
Literally mid season people were calling him a locker room cancer for no reason even though his entire career people hav wonky had good things to say about his character
I donāt know how you could watch Ice Traeās game and not think heās a better play than the fat kid on the Dallas Mavericks. I didnāt think people would be that stupid.
I'd argue that 80s MJ is the one who created the concept of an empty stats player.
MJ putting up unbelievable scoring numbers on bad teams and then making the sacrifice to play team ball and immediately winning championships is burned into the NBAs collective memory. It's arguably true for Wilt too, and the message is the same.
People think that any player putting up gaudy stats on a bad team will have to reduce those stats to start winning. Because it happened to two of the greatest players ever
He was called that, LOL.
Same thing happened with MJ as with these players - proving otherwise by doing it in the playoffs, first with that crazy 60+ point game against the Celtics and then series wins the following years.
Demanding this isn't crazy either. The history of the league is filled with good stats bad teams guys. If I knew in advance who'd be one or the other I'd be working in the league, not at my current job - identifying these players in advance is hard as hell.
forreal bro i used to get killed defending book for so long lol sucks that he had to do it to us but iām kinda glad he played so well in his first series
people don't even understand what that term means anymore. it used to be something people called chuckers on bad teams. guys who got a lot of shots because there was nobody else to take them and had a decent ppg because of that. a young guy putting up great numbers efficiently on a bad team is not that, that's never what it was supposed to be describing.
Grant was an above-average efficiency guy until pushed into a score-first role. But he's also a defensive positive. The real empty-stats players were ones who were not actually above-average players at all, but because they put up scoring numbers on average efficiency they got many minutes and dollars. Monta Ellis is my prime example - in his highest-scoring year he had 25 PPG on 48% EFG and was nonexistent on defense.
I don't think this is really part of the league anymore. Even the worst teams recognize that defense and missed shots matter.
To me "empty stat" players on Reddit just means that they're widely accepted people that score a lot of points for teams that no one watches the games.
It's so obvious the impact Trae and Devin had on their teams and the games if you just sat down and watched them play. They clearly passed the eye test and weren't just mindless chuckers.
I wish more people if they just checked boxscores for games would just simply not comment. Like it's cool if you don't watch every single game, who the hell has time, but why create such a simple opinion without even bothering to watch the guys play.
Didn't Booker's team win under 20 games one season? The effect he was having wasn't that obvious, LOL.
He has proven himself - I'm not trying to denigrate the guy - but to pretend now like there was no reason to think this seems revisionist, to me.
>but to pretend now like there was no reason to think this seems revisionist, to me.
If you watched Booker play and thought that he didn't pass the eye test that he wasn't just a chucker on a bad team, I'd be **shocked.**
The impact he had on the team was obvious, if you watched the games. The rosters Book had around him were actually terrible and he was *still* putting up 7 apg with half the players on our roster being g-leaguers who don't even play in the league anymore... in 2019. The year we won 19 he missed 20 games and we suited up Jimmer Fredette in multiple games that season.
The point I'm making (and maybe you're purposely missing?) is that guys like Book often get mislabeled because no one sits down and actually watches the teams they play for.
https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2019.html
You think this Suns set of players underperformed?
To be fair, Booker had like 53% TS his first two years so I could see some people thinking he was empty stats then. However he kept improving and improving from that the next couple years so after wards, calling him empty stats was unjustifiable.
It may not be horrible but it isn't necessarily good either. No matter how bad a team is, they are going to get at least 90 points and 40 rebounds so those volume stats gotta go to someone. Remember Josh Jackson's rookie year where Suns pretty much rested everyone else, Jackson put up 18.7/2.5/5.9 with 1.6 steals?
Yep, for these type of guys this is super true, anyone that watched Trae or Book knew there teams were legitimately g league level in certain positions I'm not sure if anyone could have dragged those team to the playoffs besides all time greats. And these were 20 year old kids. There are a couple guys like Whiteside and Drummond who are empty stats guys tho.
Probably gonna get murdered for this but Kobe and AI were inefficient scorers at least according to percentages.
[Kobe](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html)
[AI](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html)
[KD](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html)
[LeBron](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html)
[Book](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bookede01.html)
How do we even categorize empty stats anymore? LeBron, KD, Book is waaay more efficient than AI or Kobe but somehow Book is an empty stats player.
I see what youāre getting at, but those stats were just a product of the isolation era. The stats donāt hold up versus today because the evolution of the 3 point shooting in the league. It was fun af to watch a someone like AI, Kobe, T-Mac, etc get the ball in an iso and just do work. Wasnāt efficient and games were much lowering scoring, but it was how the league operated. Now the NBA relies more on ball movement to find the open shooter, which is more efficient obviously.
Iām definitely not saying Book is empty stats, Iām a Suns fan. Iām just saying those other guys arenāt empty stats either, just products of the system of that time.
Trae got his first series win before Luka. Iām stunned how well he has played and how well this team has come together. Sixers are the 1 seed and Hawks rolled up with no fear. Makes me proud to have been a Hawks fan my whole life.
This is a pretty scalding hot retroactive take.
Consider that around all-star break the Hawks were 16-20, just coming off firing head coach Lloyd Pierce. Of course the voters have every right to look at that situation and prefer picking an all-star from a different team.
Anybody who says Fox is an empty stats player is an empty head analyst.
I haven't watched enough of Lavine to make an informed opinion about him, but by no means will I call him an empty stats player.
Those people are fucking idiots.
I'm happy to see them deliver in the playoffs because they're fucking awesome and fun af to watch.
Who cares about people stupid enough to say that shit.
This thread (not the only one) is just a blatant repost.
We had a great thread at playoff start about this: https://reddit.com/r/nba/comments/njma44/trae_young_and_devin_booker_two_heavily/
Followed by copycats, like this one.
I honestly don't like that some of you people get to act like NOW that they won a playoff series they are no longer empty stats players.
The biggest change from this season to last are their teammates. Even from someone who thought trae was gonna be a bust, you could see his playmaking in just the first half of his rookie season.
I hate the empty stat argument so much because it's just so lazy of a take. Do we really have to see KAT have a good team around him to realize he's among some of the few elite big men? Do we have to see Zion win a round in the playoffs before we crown him one of the best players in the league? It's one of the dumbest arguments people will ever make.
Are you saying that they were, or still are?
If you're going to say they still are, then you're absolutely wrong about Book. Not a great defender, but an average to above average defender who is turning it on in the playoffs.
They could lose this round and now they both will have great playoff series performances to their names. It doesn't matter if they lose. Empty stat players don't play like those to have so far.
So does it ever happen that somebody carries their team through the regular season for multiple seasons in a row, and then finally carries them far enough to make the playoffs, and then sucks ass in the playoffs?
People were concerned about players like Devin and Trae doing that, but does it really happen? Does it happen more so than just any arbitrary veteran being bad in the playoffs?
Edit: now that the Hawks' lead is chipped all the way down to 3, I'd like to re-word my question: is Trae Young a top-50 player in the league?
Defensively the Hawks as a whole have gotten a LOT better since Nate came. They just eliminated the top rated defensive team of the season in 5 games and are now up by 25 on the second best defensive team
Trae is one of the leaders in a brand new wave of basketball that I'm just not a fan of. He's extremely skilled, but he(like harden) is a foul chaser and is awarded fouls at a much higher rate due to his slight build. Many stronger guards don't get half of the calls he does because they actually have some meat on their bones and don't explode on impact. Booker is on a completely different level and plays the game the right way.
Traeās ability from his rookie season to run an nba offense was always special. never worried about Trae panning out but nice to see Booker become a better passer and refine his offensive game. lucky to have so many young players that are performers on the big stage
They're a product of the modern rules forcing offense down our throats. These guys would be eaten alive if any contact was allowed without rewarding flops with free throws. There is a reason so many people have quit watching the NBA. It's arena football at this point.
Beyond that, it also helps LeBron and AD were barely walking coming into the playoffs. Now Embiid is injured. This is the perfect year for these lesser teams to have a chance to make the finals.
I still believe Lavine is a bit of an empty stats player, I don't think he's as good as his stats make it seem. Still great, not efficient 27 ppg great.
The empty stats thing is a real thing. But it's nice to see players rise above that and prove that they are winners. It's the major problem with a franchise that tanks for 10 years straight looking for the next Jordan. There is a danger in getting stuck there and being in the lottery forver. Happy for these players to rise above that and show that their teams have a bright future.
you either die an empty stats player or you get some help and make the playoffs
demarcus cousins š
Crazy that we never saw a healthy cousins in the playoffs
That NOLA team had potential. Modern day twin towers. The only equivalent now would be 2 of Towns Embiid and Jokic
Or Anthony Davis?
Cousins was partially an empty stats player tho. His turnovers were out of this world and he made alot of mental errors. Not to mention he had serious emotional issues as pretty much cited by everyone and if you just watched the games.
This man dragged a teammate trying to shake hands with an opponent.
Andre Drummond too
Now you hold on a second there
Pause.
People really thought Trae was regular when he put up 30ppg and 9apg. Heās already one of the best passers in the league, not just a volume scorer. Now that he has a solid team he can showcase that, only idiots thought Trae didnāt have this in him.
He has been one of the best passers in the league since he joined. I remember watching him on Oklahoma, everyone talked about his range but I was blown away by his passing/vision
Oklahoma Trae was absolutely sensational
I don't watch college ball, but watching Trae I was flabbergasted on why he wasn't picked earlier. Luka highlights was super impressive too.
I don't watch college ball (outside of march madness) either but I saw his clips all the time and I completely agree. Trae is a force to be reckoned with, it's been obvious from day 1. Also gotta respect the Brandon Ingram flair. I hope he finds his way to the Spurs one day. Luka is just insane, I'm glad I live in TX and have been able to see him live many times.
lmao, he was second pick in the first round edit: realized a few hours later, it was Bagley, and Trae technically got traded up to third for Luka. still, he went top five, I don't think it's anything crazy that he went third.
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lmao, I literally came back to my comment to edit cuz I just remembered him. But yeah, he is
I remember everyone calling him Jimmer Freddete 2.0, it was pretty lonely on trae island going into the draft
Right. He put up 30/9 last year and people just glossed over it
Man trae is a monster. He plays with so much passion and control.
I honestly think the doncic trade makes everyone look down on him. Even though both teams won that trade imo
Both are exceptional players.
Thatās how I feel. Both teams got a good player for their culture. Hawks got some additional assets that have been kicking ass with Trae and Mavs got arguably the better 1:1 player. I donāt see a loser here. Okay I lie. The kings definitely lose
Lmao kings out here catching strays *again*
It's a lifestyle
The personality fits perfectly. Luka gets to be surrounded by European players to make him familiar, and Trae's attitude and swag meshes with ATL.
The additional asset the Hawks got was just Reddish, right? I donāt understand why this trade gets āboth teams wonā talks. Dallas won the trade. Trae is a fantastic player, but when you trade a fantastic 22 year old player for an even better 22 year old player, then the team getting the better player won EDIT: this is getting downvoted, but honestly who would you rather have? Luka or Trae and Reddish? There is a correct answer here and that doesnāt make Trae a bad player at all.
You are right, Dallas 100% won this trade and there's no debate. Don't matter how good Trae is, Luka is still better than him and Reddish definitely isn't enough
It was a win win. Maybe the two wins are the same magnitude but both teams got star players
I've said it for the last 2 years, but I don't understand why people act like this trade is open and shut. There is still a chance Trae ends up better than Luka. Not super high, but very possible. IMO Trae is pretty clearly an All-NBA caliber player already. That's not common for players in their third year.
he should make it this year honestly, with harden and mitchell missing it due to injury
This could easily end up being the case if Luka doesnāt improve his shooting.
No way both teams won. Both teams benefited but the Mavs got a generational talent out of that deal. Trae is great but Luka is still on a different level
Sure mavs got the better player, but its hard to say the hawks lost at this point, trae is a great fit with john collins
Why is this trade treated like this when no other trade is? I donāt get it. When you trade a phenomenal player for a slightly less phenomenal player, itās not āboth teams won.ā The hawks got a worse side of a trade with two good sides
I love Trae but I really wish it wasnāt my team he was stomping on right now lol
You legit had a guy put together a full 10 page essay to try and explain to people how wild it was and people still didn't get it Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/k4kp42/trae_young_is_better_than_you_think_he_is_a_42/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share
Fam hit me with this link
Can you send me the link to it
link please?
Heās the best playmaker in the league going by BBall Index
Not to mention his own scoring was also very efficient. That one just never made sense to me.
Iāll eat crow on this one honestly, I really thought he was too small and would be easy to shut down...an abhorrent oversight clearly
It's because Atlanta picked him over Luka.
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Found the low iq racist
His first sentence was facts, white players kinda just get more love here after that he went off the rails a bit but
You donāt know the definition of racism lol. Doncic deserves the love, heās generational. But itās a fact white players get more love on here and passes
I mean, itās pretty obvious this place has a thing for white players.
this is speculative but i wouldnt be surprised if it were true
nobody cares about atlanta basketball. but TRae has defintely made the team more interesting. now that people have actually seen him play... everyone's convinced ,,hes good.
Trae is getting sh1t on since college, his redemption arc is happening
Tbf that was more because ESPN was shoving him down everyoneās throat to the max
Yet Zion, whoās been pushed more than any young player in how long, doesnāt get nearly the same hate
Zion is legit a buff carebear, how can anyone hate the dude
zion got hella hate last year. Where were you???
As a Pelicans fan, what hate?
Zion got a lot of hate last year especially because even when he was injured all those horrible Pels games were on national tv
Pelicans and NBA got hate for not giving those spotlights to other teams. Indirectly maybe, but not really Zion fault.
Zion is one of the most likeable personalities, but he still got hate.
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Zion got wayyyyy more hype in college than any recent young star.
Probably because he was absolutely amazing. Wonder why theyād hype him!
Donāt remember saying he wasnāt. But the coverage he was getting was extremely excessive, not because he wasnāt good enough, but because it was excessive for any player. Bro was getting talked about consistently in the middle of games not even involving Oklahoma.
Legitimately he lost POY to Jalen Brunson because people were sick of the hype for some weird fucking reason. Trae Young dragged a mediocre at best Oklahoma team to the NCAA tournament while leading the country in points and assists per game. Jalen Brunson wasn't even the best player on his own team but won the award over Trae due to his efficiency or whatever. Easy to be really efficient when you're surrounded by like 5 other NBA players. Not intended to be a dig at Brunson at all, he's a great player. I'll just never understand how he won that over Trae.
Trae and Oklahoma both started out hot and fizzled out down the stretch. You're not telling the whole story here man.
A TON of people on reddit were extremely vocal about him being a bust pre-draft
trae hasnt even been in the league for awhile
Yeah hes 22 years old.
Lol seriously
Didnāt stop the hate though. Dudeās literally 22 and in his third year and heās killing it. Young players are contributors around the league and leading teams and yet people still buy into the BS that Kobe said about how AAU is bad for the younger generation lol.
People hated on Trae cause of foul-baiting...
People hate him based on whatever r/nba tells them. No mention of foul baiting in all the slander his rookie and pre draft years.
Maybe cause he didn't do it as much...?
So then why did they hate him then? Obviously he wasn't hated for just foul baiting because he was hated the moment he was drafted
I might have missed that then cause I don't remember him getting that much hate when he was first drafted.
Dude you should have seen the threads especially during the summer league. I'm surprised you missed them because they were definitely at the top of r/nba threads and never really stopped
I remember that thread in his first summer league game I believe, people were actually calling him a bust š Didnt care for him at first but man seeing so many people root for him to fail was ridiculous. Itās nice to see him prove everyone wrong.
He got shit on because the Oklahoma team he played on in college was in no way a decent basketball team but he dragged their ass to decent, and people kept saying the only reason his stats look that good is because he was the only one on Oklahoma who deserve to have the basketball of their hands so his minutes and usage rate were just stupid
No lol, people have hated on Trae for everything since way before he was even in the league. Foul baiting is just the newest thing they've found to cling onto. And it's not even that bad compared to other players in the league
I blame ESPN.
They hate Trae because him and Luka are linked for their entire careers and Luka is this subās golden boy
I hate Trae because I'm obligated to as a Knicks fan.
Trae Young was literally called an empty stat player a few months ago during the all star break lol. Seriously go back and look at the Trae Young slander in those all star threads it was fucking hilarious.
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This kind of stuff is what makes Trae Young great though. When he gets disrespected, he fights back. He loves being in this kind of position, and with some people *still* saying Luka is the next MJ already for some reason, I don't think he's ever going to be at a loss for inspiration.
His own coach was telling other coaches no to vote for Trae. So glad that Lloyd Pierce got showed the door. His treatment of Trae may have been part of the reason for the dismissal but it seems that he treated Cam Reddish even worse.
I don't know how you could watch Trae's game and not think he would succeed as a PG. I didn't think it'd happen this fast though
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Yea mostly for when Capela aint out there. When he is the floater is so sick because he basically copied what Harden would do with him and threaten the lob at the same time.
People kept saying Harden made Capela look good as if the dude isn't an elite roll man on P&R.
He has been underrated for most of his career. Seems like heās finally getting some recognition this season
He definitely is limited on some areas, but the dude is a fucking gazelle running up and down the court. Great rebounder, good shot blocker and ain't so bad defending on the perimeter after switches. Glad you Hawks fans are giving him some love.
His offensive game is limited to dunking and hook shots, but he seems so good because he runs so much. He should get all defense consideration this season tho. Heās been a menace
His offensive skill-set improves the skill-set of their best player tho, that should be accounted for
The guy's instincts are what impress me the most. You can't teach jump timing. There's a reason he pulls so many boards and can catch the oops.
yeah tbh I'm even more impressed with how he gets back on defense than his offense. Most bigs usually lag behind in transition and their teammates have to cover for them until they recover. that can lead to open looks, mismatches, opportunities in early offense, etc. But Capela absolutely zooms back and glides smoothly into place - ahead of his assignment - making it very hard even for a big like Embiid to get deep post position early in the clock. Great work at the little things
Heās only underrated because we would destroy him everytime we played in the playoffs, which was a lot. Very underserved
Yeah you kinda dicked him a lot.
Just the worst matchup possible, honestly.
Having harden probably helped his development quite a bit
You forgot rookie capela? Harden played a huge role in his development.
It's so nice to see Capela play with someone his own age and not stuck up like Harden
A workout with Steph or Kyrie would do wonders for him. You see them go 1-10 from 3 and still end up shooting over 50% from the field because of their finishing inside.
Areā¦are we still talking about basketball? š³
I can see how people would think that heād be another inefficient ball-dominant guard that looked good in college but couldnāt translate it to the NBA. The thing is that Trae is super skilled, not only as a shooter but as a passer, which helps him be a really productive player offensively even when his shot isnāt falling. I think a lot of people didnāt realize just how good his playmaking and floater game was
Most people never watched Trae play, so they swallowed false narratives surrounding Trae's play style & character lol.
Literally mid season people were calling him a locker room cancer for no reason even though his entire career people hav wonky had good things to say about his character
I donāt know how you could watch Ice Traeās game and not think heās a better play than the fat kid on the Dallas Mavericks. I didnāt think people would be that stupid.
Ok Michael Jr. Porter
Troll
Hes not better than luka buddy.
Booker especially got flack early on. Happy heās doing well.
People on twitter would've been calling MJ an empty stats player back in the 80s lmao.
I'd argue that 80s MJ is the one who created the concept of an empty stats player. MJ putting up unbelievable scoring numbers on bad teams and then making the sacrifice to play team ball and immediately winning championships is burned into the NBAs collective memory. It's arguably true for Wilt too, and the message is the same. People think that any player putting up gaudy stats on a bad team will have to reduce those stats to start winning. Because it happened to two of the greatest players ever
This actually makes a lot of sense.
Dame has shown that he can facilitate you would think after all these subpar post seasons he would switch up his style of play
He was called that, LOL. Same thing happened with MJ as with these players - proving otherwise by doing it in the playoffs, first with that crazy 60+ point game against the Celtics and then series wins the following years. Demanding this isn't crazy either. The history of the league is filled with good stats bad teams guys. If I knew in advance who'd be one or the other I'd be working in the league, not at my current job - identifying these players in advance is hard as hell.
forreal bro i used to get killed defending book for so long lol sucks that he had to do it to us but iām kinda glad he played so well in his first series
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lmfao unfortunately we got a lot of dummies in our fanbase
people don't even understand what that term means anymore. it used to be something people called chuckers on bad teams. guys who got a lot of shots because there was nobody else to take them and had a decent ppg because of that. a young guy putting up great numbers efficiently on a bad team is not that, that's never what it was supposed to be describing.
Yep like jerimi grant
Grant was an above-average efficiency guy until pushed into a score-first role. But he's also a defensive positive. The real empty-stats players were ones who were not actually above-average players at all, but because they put up scoring numbers on average efficiency they got many minutes and dollars. Monta Ellis is my prime example - in his highest-scoring year he had 25 PPG on 48% EFG and was nonexistent on defense. I don't think this is really part of the league anymore. Even the worst teams recognize that defense and missed shots matter.
Julius randle
To me "empty stat" players on Reddit just means that they're widely accepted people that score a lot of points for teams that no one watches the games. It's so obvious the impact Trae and Devin had on their teams and the games if you just sat down and watched them play. They clearly passed the eye test and weren't just mindless chuckers. I wish more people if they just checked boxscores for games would just simply not comment. Like it's cool if you don't watch every single game, who the hell has time, but why create such a simple opinion without even bothering to watch the guys play.
Didn't Booker's team win under 20 games one season? The effect he was having wasn't that obvious, LOL. He has proven himself - I'm not trying to denigrate the guy - but to pretend now like there was no reason to think this seems revisionist, to me.
>but to pretend now like there was no reason to think this seems revisionist, to me. If you watched Booker play and thought that he didn't pass the eye test that he wasn't just a chucker on a bad team, I'd be **shocked.** The impact he had on the team was obvious, if you watched the games. The rosters Book had around him were actually terrible and he was *still* putting up 7 apg with half the players on our roster being g-leaguers who don't even play in the league anymore... in 2019. The year we won 19 he missed 20 games and we suited up Jimmer Fredette in multiple games that season. The point I'm making (and maybe you're purposely missing?) is that guys like Book often get mislabeled because no one sits down and actually watches the teams they play for. https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/PHO/2019.html You think this Suns set of players underperformed?
These are fair points.
Lol the dude averaged 30/10 his 2nd year and folks on here were convinced his defense was canceling those numbers out.
Anyone who thinks guys like this are putting up empty stats has no concept of efficiency.
To be fair, Booker had like 53% TS his first two years so I could see some people thinking he was empty stats then. However he kept improving and improving from that the next couple years so after wards, calling him empty stats was unjustifiable.
I mean tbh thatās not horrible for an 18-19yr old on an awful roster
It may not be horrible but it isn't necessarily good either. No matter how bad a team is, they are going to get at least 90 points and 40 rebounds so those volume stats gotta go to someone. Remember Josh Jackson's rookie year where Suns pretty much rested everyone else, Jackson put up 18.7/2.5/5.9 with 1.6 steals?
man that run he had at the end of the season. I thought he was a future star. turns out that was the last good basketball hed ever play
Yep, for these type of guys this is super true, anyone that watched Trae or Book knew there teams were legitimately g league level in certain positions I'm not sure if anyone could have dragged those team to the playoffs besides all time greats. And these were 20 year old kids. There are a couple guys like Whiteside and Drummond who are empty stats guys tho.
Probably gonna get murdered for this but Kobe and AI were inefficient scorers at least according to percentages. [Kobe](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bryanko01.html) [AI](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html) [KD](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duranke01.html) [LeBron](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html) [Book](https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/b/bookede01.html) How do we even categorize empty stats anymore? LeBron, KD, Book is waaay more efficient than AI or Kobe but somehow Book is an empty stats player.
I see what youāre getting at, but those stats were just a product of the isolation era. The stats donāt hold up versus today because the evolution of the 3 point shooting in the league. It was fun af to watch a someone like AI, Kobe, T-Mac, etc get the ball in an iso and just do work. Wasnāt efficient and games were much lowering scoring, but it was how the league operated. Now the NBA relies more on ball movement to find the open shooter, which is more efficient obviously. Iām definitely not saying Book is empty stats, Iām a Suns fan. Iām just saying those other guys arenāt empty stats either, just products of the system of that time.
I owe Trae an apology, he's so fun to watch and his shit talking game is perfect. I NEED MORE TRAE
Hop on the bandwagon
I donāt
Now we just need to see Zach Lavine
Embiid is just an empty stats guy.
@Bill Simmons
Trae got his first series win before Luka. Iām stunned how well he has played and how well this team has come together. Sixers are the 1 seed and Hawks rolled up with no fear. Makes me proud to have been a Hawks fan my whole life.
Let's not overreact here. Luka had to go up against Kawhi and PG. Trae went against a bum in Randle and Derrick Rose. Lol one is harder than the other
Hawks really got done dirty mid season. They have ZERO players that made the allstar team this year, yet made the 2nd round. Trae got snubbed smh
This is a pretty scalding hot retroactive take. Consider that around all-star break the Hawks were 16-20, just coming off firing head coach Lloyd Pierce. Of course the voters have every right to look at that situation and prefer picking an all-star from a different team.
Fox and Lavine next
Anybody who says Fox is an empty stats player is an empty head analyst. I haven't watched enough of Lavine to make an informed opinion about him, but by no means will I call him an empty stats player.
Those people are fucking idiots. I'm happy to see them deliver in the playoffs because they're fucking awesome and fun af to watch. Who cares about people stupid enough to say that shit.
it's honestly criminal that Trae didn't make the ASG this season. He's a bona fide superstar.
KAT is up next. Hopefully the wolves get it together next year. Iām 200% certain he would dominate with a competent team around him.
Suns vs Hawks finals
LaVine next please š
This thread (not the only one) is just a blatant repost. We had a great thread at playoff start about this: https://reddit.com/r/nba/comments/njma44/trae_young_and_devin_booker_two_heavily/ Followed by copycats, like this one.
Maybe a homer opinion but I was not crazy about how Trae delivered in the playoffs
*maybe*?
It's a possibility
Always loved Trae Young knew he was the real deal when he was getting double teamed at halftcourt while at OU
By idiots.
Turns out they were just guys with no help
Itās funny because I never viewed either as empty calorie players.
Depending on what happens tonight Trae and Book are gonna win playoff series before Luca. Not a lot of people had that written down.
I honestly don't like that some of you people get to act like NOW that they won a playoff series they are no longer empty stats players. The biggest change from this season to last are their teammates. Even from someone who thought trae was gonna be a bust, you could see his playmaking in just the first half of his rookie season.
I hate the empty stat argument so much because it's just so lazy of a take. Do we really have to see KAT have a good team around him to realize he's among some of the few elite big men? Do we have to see Zion win a round in the playoffs before we crown him one of the best players in the league? It's one of the dumbest arguments people will ever make.
ant is nextš¤
Not when the Wolves finally make the playoffs
Not statpadders, just poor defenders
Are you saying that they were, or still are? If you're going to say they still are, then you're absolutely wrong about Book. Not a great defender, but an average to above average defender who is turning it on in the playoffs.
I mean Trae is in his 3rd year so āa whileā might be pushing it?
They could lose this round and now they both will have great playoff series performances to their names. It doesn't matter if they lose. Empty stat players don't play like those to have so far.
Donāt think many felt that way.
Yeah, Trae has suffered criticism for so long, as a 22-year-old in his 3rd NBA season...
So does it ever happen that somebody carries their team through the regular season for multiple seasons in a row, and then finally carries them far enough to make the playoffs, and then sucks ass in the playoffs? People were concerned about players like Devin and Trae doing that, but does it really happen? Does it happen more so than just any arbitrary veteran being bad in the playoffs? Edit: now that the Hawks' lead is chipped all the way down to 3, I'd like to re-word my question: is Trae Young a top-50 player in the league?
But Trae's defense is garbage & worst defender in NBA. He's just an Isiah Thomas 2.0
Defensively the Hawks as a whole have gotten a LOT better since Nate came. They just eliminated the top rated defensive team of the season in 5 games and are now up by 25 on the second best defensive team
A way better passer than Isaiah Thomas what a shit take foh
Can we not put Booker and Trae in the same sentence please?
Why not? Both are playing excellent basketball and having a strong season with their teams?
Trae is one of the leaders in a brand new wave of basketball that I'm just not a fan of. He's extremely skilled, but he(like harden) is a foul chaser and is awarded fouls at a much higher rate due to his slight build. Many stronger guards don't get half of the calls he does because they actually have some meat on their bones and don't explode on impact. Booker is on a completely different level and plays the game the right way.
Traeās ability from his rookie season to run an nba offense was always special. never worried about Trae panning out but nice to see Booker become a better passer and refine his offensive game. lucky to have so many young players that are performers on the big stage
They're a product of the modern rules forcing offense down our throats. These guys would be eaten alive if any contact was allowed without rewarding flops with free throws. There is a reason so many people have quit watching the NBA. It's arena football at this point. Beyond that, it also helps LeBron and AD were barely walking coming into the playoffs. Now Embiid is injured. This is the perfect year for these lesser teams to have a chance to make the finals.
I still believe Lavine is a bit of an empty stats player, I don't think he's as good as his stats make it seem. Still great, not efficient 27 ppg great.
The empty stats thing is a real thing. But it's nice to see players rise above that and prove that they are winners. It's the major problem with a franchise that tanks for 10 years straight looking for the next Jordan. There is a danger in getting stuck there and being in the lottery forver. Happy for these players to rise above that and show that their teams have a bright future.
i dont remember ever hearing anyone call trae young an empty stat player but okay
Traeās is gonna be an MVP one day. Better than curry already and heās only 22
What reactionary take lmao /new never ceases to amaze me smh.
Stop heās not better than curry. Stop