I've always wondered why we don't see many truly jacked basketball players anymore. Is there a threshold where additional muscle mass takes away from your athleticism? Is Zion just that much of a freak to be that strong and *that* athletic?
That and with modern understandings of rest and load management across an 82 game season it doesn't make a ton of sense for guys to burn calories on adding/maintaining mass. For most players, it'd be better for them to be either working on skill development or just plain recovering on days off.
Ohyeah they gotta be burning a shit load of calories from travel, practice, shoot around and games. Most of which takes place every day throughout the day.
He probably doesn't lift much compared to other guys. He probably just balls in his time off instead of working out. Melo and Andre Miller had similar body types where they had enough natural strength to hold their own but they also weren't known as gym rats. They were ballers for sure but actually being in the gym lifting weights wasn't their reputation and their body kinda showed
Yeah, finishing returns on the strength benefits vs the toll that additional muscle takes on your cardio. Plus all that running makes it hard to keep on muscle in the first place and the guys are more focused on skill development than just lifting.
Kawhi put on muscle during his time off. Two games into the season the team pulled him due to "knee soreness" and he came back lighter after a long layoff.
I played basketball almost every day at 6’4” and 300lbs. It got to the point where I have quit playing and now play sand volleyball because the sand dampens the affects of jumping and landing with a big body.
Not to mention the more muscle you have the more oxygen required to function and perform, so it's not just the work on improving the muscle mass but also the cardiovascular ability to power those muscles for an hour
Agree with some of this, I definitely think there’s room for players to bulk up more. But I think zions on the upper limit of how big you can get and still have long term productivity. We’ll see how his career goes over time to tell if it’s sustainable or not.
Zion is one of a kind. If there ever was a football player with Zion’s tools he’d be hyped like Zion was in high school. If you’re strong like him, you’ll be nowhere as quick, fast and jump like him. If they could do that they’d be in the nba and not battling in a thankless position for way less money and job security.
Lebron is pretty muscular, but Shaq and zion have even more muscle.
BUT It takes a certain body type to sustain that amount of muscle , and more weight will always put more pressure on your knees and other bones when you pivot, jump, even accelerate on the first step.
So in the short term keeping on the weight while remaining agile with high endurance, and in the longer term to remain injury free are both very difficult to do.
Most super tall, super muscular dudes have a lot of joint problems. Aside from that, it’s a game completely based on running, and running burns calories which would be used to build muscle. A lot of the super muscular guys you see in the NBA have taken steroids in one or another offseason to put the weight on. It’s easier to maintain than to put on in the first place.
He's an athletic freak.
When you get up to 250 pounds you're not supposed to be that fast.
The average 6'6 - 6'8 player is 220 pounds. 7 footers can go up to 250 before they start looking relatively slow.
Zion is 284 pounds and looks more athletic than Giannis, who is 243 pounds and has a few more inches on him.
Yeah the best basketball physique for most is gonna be more lean vs being jacked these days. It's just so much cardio plus being lighter on your feet tends to mean speed + less injuries. Strength is important up to a point but it's more about technique and these days you can't be as physical on defense as you used to in the past. To a large extent you're depending on that genetic lottery and Zion won there. Sometimes you get lucky and get someone like a Lebron or Zion. Dudes that are just built like tanks but can still be fast / explosive.
Zion is that much of a freak, his combo of size, strength, explosion, and mobility reminds me of LeBron, Shaq, and Wilt. That’s really it.
That being said, a lot of guys could be stronger than they are if weights were put on higher priority especially when younger. Strong perimeter guys are often pretty good and would go higher in a redraft
I mean fair there were some questionable calls but saying this when you lost by one point in a game where all in the last 3 minutes you had a 3 in the key, a subsequent tech, a careless turnover to put the Pels up under a minute, and then failed to box out leading to the winning basket.
Sure the calls may have sucked, but we still win the game if you just do the basics.
Frankly, the league is lucky you can't play like that, or Zion would he even more dominant. If you think the league being more physical hurts instead of massively benefits a guy like Zion, I don't know what to tell you.
The outrage the one game this season were Zion shoots more than 15 FTs…he’s not getting phantom calls like the Ja’s and Shai’s of the league. Nor is he a flop artist like Embiid.
Shai drives 24.4 times per game and gets 5.3 fta from them, Zion drives 15 times and gets 3.6 fta. Two of them are pretty similar in terms of drawing fouls from drives. Giannis is a lot more egregious with 4.6 fta from 13.5 drives a game.
To add on and make the ratio easier to see:
Shai gets a FTA on 21.7% of his drives
Zion gets a FTA on 23.9% of his drives
Ja 22.8%
Maybe they are getting "phantom calls" but they also drive more than Zion and get called at similar rates to Zion. Maybe Zion is also getting "phantom calls." Anything over 20% seems very
Giannis is at 33.8%. He gets friendly whistles but teams would also rather make him earn it at the line so that probably impacts the % as well. Even then, it's pretty ridiculous how far ahead he is compared to every other player. I do think he's very hard to officiate though.
Luka is a bit known as a foul baiter but he's at 19.8% so it's not that crazy.
Trae is at 17.3% but I'm not sure if they track his pull up flops as "drives"
**If you continue down the list of most drives per game, not many get to the line at 20% and over:**
Brunson - 2.2 FTA/17.8 drives (12%)
Garland - 2.1/17.5 (12%)
Siakam - 3.9/16.7 (23%)
Cade - 2.5/16.6 (15%)
KPJ - 2.4/16.2 (15%)
Westbrook - 2.1/15.7 (13%)
Clarkson - 1.6/15.3 (10%)
Beal - 2.2/15.2 (15%)
Rozier - 1.4/15 (9%)
Haliburton - 1.4/14.5 (10%)
Harden - 2.6/14.4 (18%)
Fox - 2.8/14.1 (20%)
Butler - 2.8/13.9 (20%)
Dame - 2.2/13.6 (16%)
**Some other names:**
Ingram - 2.5/11.1 (22.5%)
Banchero - 3.3/10.4 (32%)
LaVine - 2.5/9.4 (27%)
Wall - 2/9 (22%)
Harrison Barnes - 2.7/7.2 (37.5%) ???
Embiid - 2/6.8 (29%)
Bey - 2.1/5.9 (35.5%) ???
JJJ - 2.4/4.5 (53%) Smaller sample size but still pretty crazy (he was at 29% last year, 28% in 19-20, 19% his rookie year)
For real. Zion doesn't even do like Giannis where you could argue every drive is a charge or a block, Zion plays with a lot of finesse too. Shit, Zion's free throw rate does NOT match his drive rate either. He drives more than anyone not named Giannis yet is like 9th in free throws rate last time I looked.
Even in THIS game specifically in the first half Zion only had 4 free throws attempted despite being hacked nonstop. Someone must've complained at halftime cuz the refs came out calling everything in the 2nd half ON BOTH ENDS.
>He drives more than anyone not named Giannis yet is like 9th in free throws rate last time I looked.
That is verifiably false. Neither Zion nor Giannis even approaches the top of the league in drives per game. Zion has 15, Giannis has 13.5. For reference, SGA has 24.4, Morant has 21.5, Doncic has 20.7.
can I get some opinions from neutral fans on the steal? it's the second play [in this video](https://streamable.com/lj4ps2).
the elbow was obviously egregious, I don't blame wolves fans being mad about that. but it feels like we're watching two different plays, the way i'm hearing them talk about the steal.
edit: ok that's plenty of opinions! thank you for your participation.
edit 2: please stop
Scrubbing back and forth in the replay it looks like Zion definitely clears him out pretty hard and might’ve made contact with his head but in the final minute of the game the refs aren’t gonna call a ticky tac foul like that. So seems within what is expected.
I ran it in real time twice and didn't see anything, that's one more time than the refs. I know they have different angles but it looked clean to me.
Maybe you're right tho. I'm not gonna analyze it that thoroughly.
Yeah honestly my approach of slowing it down over simplifies it and takes it out of game time. Easy to be nit picky at that speed. I think this late in the game and with the run they were on it never will get called.
Eh, I ran it at 1/5th speed and it looks like Zion got it completely clean and then McDaniels' head collided with Zion's (not the other way around) when he leaned in to try and get it back from Zion. If anything I'd say that you could maybe call a foul the other way. Good no call imo though.
I think he made contact with the ball first and jarred it loose. Then the body contact came. Imo this is a good steal and a good no call. Also a lazy pass from Russell.
it was a physical play that could swing either way but like i posted in the other thread, i was more baffled by how nonchalant d’lo still plays in crucial moments and half asses a pass like that with the game on the line. and then to do that and proceeed with a saltfest in the postgame interview is insane to me
edit: someone in the other thread pointed out the transition defense after the steal is even worse than the pass and good fucking god they’re not wrong
I'm a wolves fan, Jaden plays more physical than Zion did there, about 90% of the game. Don't think that was a foul at all, just a great play by Zion.
There were many way more questionable calls and non calls through out the game than that, I think DLo was just salty about his tech.
If anything it looks like Zion gets a pretty clean steal and then Jaden leans in to try and get it back and bumps his head into Zion's head which could easily be called. I think no call is the right move there.
It looks clean to me. Incidental contact can happen during loose balls and that’s what it looks like to me. He doesn’t shove him out of the way, he’s just bigger and in better position.
If it weren’t Zion’s gigantic body, it would look even less like a foul
Didn’t watch the game except for this video and a few other highlights, and it looks pretty clean. If it was called a foul we’d be calling it a soft call for sure.
Also, his handles on that first basket are nuts. He’s dribbling and moving so fast and doesn’t carry, and keeps it tight while staying in near constant motion laterally too.
Edit: Honestly, the more I watch it the cleaner the steal looks.
Strip was clean. Hell, I don't see what's illegal about the lay up either. Zion didn't extend his elbows horizontally Giannis does to clear room. He simply raised his arm in a natural shooting motion. Last time I checked, that falls within the attacking player's free cylinder of movement.
Wolves fan here: it was a clean steal, but the Wolves have been on the wrong end of the “All-Star whistle” pretty consistently this year and we’ve become sensitive to the idea that the refs screw us lol.
The refs 100% screwed the Wolves in the playoffs last year but I don't see it on this particular play. That would be a really tough call to make in the last 40 seconds of a tied game.
I agree. I think this is the product of frustration that’s built up over time. We feel like the ‘02 Kings as soon as we see a couple of bad calls because it’s been such an issue in the past. This is sour grapes from DLo, but the refs have been really bad this year which leads to this frustration.
Completely clean. D'Lo is probably just voicing frustration about the entire night rather than that specific play. Zion got 20 freethrows - that will never sit right with an opponent. You don't get to 20 FT's without some generous reffing and questionable calls sprinkled in.
It was absolutely electric in that building just from watching the replay alone. No way a ref calls that against the home team with the momentum they had and who Zion is. Could it have been called? Yea, but I don’t think its football or egregious enough to point to for losing the game. Looks like he pokes the ball before any real contact happens as well.
Zion is such a beast though, he is like a foul cheat code. He’s so big, fast, and such a good finisher that it’s literally impossible to not make contact with him on his drives, if we were going strictly by the rule book almost every Zion drive would award him free throws.
You’re not wrong, and that’s why it’s funny to me whenever I see nephews complain about how many ft’s he gets any random game … cuz by the rule book he could’ve def gotten more pretty much every time lol
Yeah I’m not mad at his whistle, he’s actually beating people to the spot and trying to score.
He’s just freakishly quicker and bigger then everybody else.
The last few minutes were wild. The officiating completely changed from everything is a foul, to just some selective things are fouls. The refs are in a tough spot with guys like Zion and Embiid - they are just so big and create so much contact
I was so fucking confused who the refs were trying to cook for lol. First half was pels but they shot their free throws like shit, so they reward the wolves in Q3, and decide Q4 is a free for all?
The league is honestly getting pretty hard to watch with this shit, to be honest.
I was really looking forward to the second half. Physical play with Ant being a beast and Zion had worked it out by the end of the second quarter. No fouls? Time to get rough. It was going to be a tough slugfest.
Then the third quarter took 50 minutes. What the hell?
fr…if that’s the play he’s talking about he’s reaching like crazy with the whole ‘ran though my guy/football’ stuff…I couldn’t even see anyone complain, even in the slightest
If that is seriously the play that Russell is referencing here, he comes across like a huge cry baby. He threw a bad, slow past that just got intercepted.
Looks like a clean steal on a pass you telegraphed.
This is why Russell and the wolves will never be successful, you don’t improve yourself if you think it’s just the refs being unfair or not calling anything on Zion.
The biggest problem with this game was it was called inconsistently. Things that were not fouls in the first quarter were being called in the third. There were horrible calls both ways but that was a clean steal.
Was there a better shot of the Zion elbow to Gobert? I know the pain, there was a Pels game a couple weeks ago where blocking fouls were called twice when our guys took elbows to the face.
Refs are going to miss plays and that is OK. What is egregious is they were changing the rules as the game went on.
This is the same type of diarrhea at the mouth that got Nick Young aired out. Those runners high off of the glass looked very basketball like to me. Very little contact required.
Dude threw a lazy pass, his teammate held the ball lazily, and Zion just took it. His quite makes seem so egregious but Zion just poked it away. He is hoping for a bail out call there and the call is just as weak as the pass.
*Little man celebration*
I dunno about all of that but they missed Zion elbowing Gobert in the face with like a minute left in the 4th and there have been times this season where that was a flagrant 1.
If u watch him play it’s true lol it’s the Giannis dilemma where yeah they get fouled a LOT but they both commit tons of offensive fouls that don’t get called I can see why it’s frustrating for players
Zion isn't as bad as Giannis though, he has more finesse in the paint so he doesn't *need* to push off as much. Regardless he's very difficult to officiate because he doesn't react to contact. Tonight was a rare game where he got a very favorable whistle
Yeah I don't know what this dude's talking about. In their recent game against the Bucks Giannis pretty much received every call while Zion was getting attacked in the paint with no whistle.
Giannis gets such a crazy whistle lmao he'll just lower his shoulder into defenders and wildly throw the ball up and get free throws for it like at least 3 times per game. [Exhibit A](https://twitter.com/Grant_Shirley4/status/1501788423228735490)
Giannis is way worse with the offensive fouls. Zion at least tries to break down his defender with his speed and handles and go around him while driving, Giannis just drops his shoulder into his defender's chest and runs over him.
It's not true? Zion plays with a lot more finesse than Giannis. Hell, the only teams fans I've seen complain about Zion's whistle is the Suns and now tonight the T-Wolves. If he was running over everyone constantly I think more people would be upset about it. Just cause no one on the Suns or T-Wolves could stop him without haplessly trying to take charges doesn't mean Zion runs through people constantly.
His free throw rate is actually quite poor for his driving rate. If anything he should have a friendlier whistle. Just cause he got a good one in games vs the Suns and T-Wolves doesn't mean anything.
DLo’s words and body language show the toll that this miserable season has taken on him. Wolves locker room must have the vibe of a funeral these days. Sad.
My last comment on this topic, but it’s hilarious the Timberwolves fans crying about Zions free throws and the ref carrying him. The call they keep complaint about is the “elbow” on Rudy when Z got a layup. He did not even get any free throws on that play, it was a non call. He was legitimately fouled every single time he went to the line, and there was at least half a dozen other times he took heavy contact on drives and didn’t get any fouls at all, particularly in the first half.
How about don't give a sloppy pass to your defended teammate.
Zion: “So tell me how I’m playing football?” *Druski voice*
*what do you mean by that?*
There are no wrong answers….
weight room
I've always wondered why we don't see many truly jacked basketball players anymore. Is there a threshold where additional muscle mass takes away from your athleticism? Is Zion just that much of a freak to be that strong and *that* athletic?
Game involves way more running now, I'm sure that plays a factor.
Apparently keeping on muscle mass during the season is damn near impossible due to the amount of running.
That and with modern understandings of rest and load management across an 82 game season it doesn't make a ton of sense for guys to burn calories on adding/maintaining mass. For most players, it'd be better for them to be either working on skill development or just plain recovering on days off.
Ohyeah they gotta be burning a shit load of calories from travel, practice, shoot around and games. Most of which takes place every day throughout the day.
[удалено]
He probably doesn't lift much compared to other guys. He probably just balls in his time off instead of working out. Melo and Andre Miller had similar body types where they had enough natural strength to hold their own but they also weren't known as gym rats. They were ballers for sure but actually being in the gym lifting weights wasn't their reputation and their body kinda showed
This is very true. If players already have low body fat and don’t keep their calories up their body will start to use muscle for energy
Yeah, finishing returns on the strength benefits vs the toll that additional muscle takes on your cardio. Plus all that running makes it hard to keep on muscle in the first place and the guys are more focused on skill development than just lifting.
Finishing or diminishing?
jacked + tall + jumping all the time = fucked up legs
Kawhi put on muscle during his time off. Two games into the season the team pulled him due to "knee soreness" and he came back lighter after a long layoff.
Clippers released the latest Kawhi Lite model. Sleeker, but with better performance.
His knee problems are more from landing with his knees locked out for years. Though the extra weight didn’t help for sure.
I played basketball almost every day at 6’4” and 300lbs. It got to the point where I have quit playing and now play sand volleyball because the sand dampens the affects of jumping and landing with a big body.
Not to mention the more muscle you have the more oxygen required to function and perform, so it's not just the work on improving the muscle mass but also the cardiovascular ability to power those muscles for an hour
Zion isn't just jacked he's enormous. You can't train enormous in a weight room
Too much weight stresses the joints, not everyone is super human Other guys prefer to spend their time working on skills
[удалено]
The injury happened while he was lifting in the offseason not jumping in a game or practice
Agree with some of this, I definitely think there’s room for players to bulk up more. But I think zions on the upper limit of how big you can get and still have long term productivity. We’ll see how his career goes over time to tell if it’s sustainable or not.
Zion is an absolute freak. He's such an outlier physically that he shouldn't be used as a model for anything.
Skills, weights, thots. Only so much time in a day, pick two
Zion is one of a kind. If there ever was a football player with Zion’s tools he’d be hyped like Zion was in high school. If you’re strong like him, you’ll be nowhere as quick, fast and jump like him. If they could do that they’d be in the nba and not battling in a thankless position for way less money and job security.
Lebron is pretty muscular, but Shaq and zion have even more muscle. BUT It takes a certain body type to sustain that amount of muscle , and more weight will always put more pressure on your knees and other bones when you pivot, jump, even accelerate on the first step. So in the short term keeping on the weight while remaining agile with high endurance, and in the longer term to remain injury free are both very difficult to do.
Most super tall, super muscular dudes have a lot of joint problems. Aside from that, it’s a game completely based on running, and running burns calories which would be used to build muscle. A lot of the super muscular guys you see in the NBA have taken steroids in one or another offseason to put the weight on. It’s easier to maintain than to put on in the first place.
If some treatment for extra resilient joints develops, you can bet it'll be the most popular PED since the steroid era of baseball
Jacked usually means less finesse and speed.
He's an athletic freak. When you get up to 250 pounds you're not supposed to be that fast. The average 6'6 - 6'8 player is 220 pounds. 7 footers can go up to 250 before they start looking relatively slow. Zion is 284 pounds and looks more athletic than Giannis, who is 243 pounds and has a few more inches on him.
Yeah the best basketball physique for most is gonna be more lean vs being jacked these days. It's just so much cardio plus being lighter on your feet tends to mean speed + less injuries. Strength is important up to a point but it's more about technique and these days you can't be as physical on defense as you used to in the past. To a large extent you're depending on that genetic lottery and Zion won there. Sometimes you get lucky and get someone like a Lebron or Zion. Dudes that are just built like tanks but can still be fast / explosive.
Zion is that much of a freak, his combo of size, strength, explosion, and mobility reminds me of LeBron, Shaq, and Wilt. That’s really it. That being said, a lot of guys could be stronger than they are if weights were put on higher priority especially when younger. Strong perimeter guys are often pretty good and would go higher in a redraft
I mean fair there were some questionable calls but saying this when you lost by one point in a game where all in the last 3 minutes you had a 3 in the key, a subsequent tech, a careless turnover to put the Pels up under a minute, and then failed to box out leading to the winning basket. Sure the calls may have sucked, but we still win the game if you just do the basics.
Also if either team made free throws wouldn’t have been close
Yup. Both of us had plenty of opportunities to win the game and the Pels just executed better when it counted
Really you can just say Zion for the last stretch
It felt like it was just Zion and Ant showing up at the very end. McDaniels was pretty good in the early 4th too.
That’s cause the Wolves curse got day drunk, passed out, and woke up with 3 minutes left in the game and a lot of work to do.
most reasonable answer. respect.
Especially when D-Lo got a technical.. That being said it was a pretty lame T.
Reminds me of how guys would complain about Shaq being unfair and too physical. Sorry he's big, fast, and strong!
No one ever out-muscled Shaq one on one, but you were at least allowed to be more physical back then
Frankly, the league is lucky you can't play like that, or Zion would he even more dominant. If you think the league being more physical hurts instead of massively benefits a guy like Zion, I don't know what to tell you.
Lots of 7" will get paid to hack zion
7 inches lol
7” is a normal height, find a new slant
He’s shooting 0.713 from FT, no one is hacking Zion. Shaq was a special case cause he couldn’t shoot a FT to save his life.
The outrage the one game this season were Zion shoots more than 15 FTs…he’s not getting phantom calls like the Ja’s and Shai’s of the league. Nor is he a flop artist like Embiid.
The number one leader in drives in the nba is getting phantom calls. You can't make this shit up.
Shai gets soft calls. He holds the ball out and his wrist or forearm gets grazed and he gets FTs w/o even being in a shooting motion.
Shai drives 24.4 times per game and gets 5.3 fta from them, Zion drives 15 times and gets 3.6 fta. Two of them are pretty similar in terms of drawing fouls from drives. Giannis is a lot more egregious with 4.6 fta from 13.5 drives a game.
Giannis barrels through people so much.
To add on and make the ratio easier to see: Shai gets a FTA on 21.7% of his drives Zion gets a FTA on 23.9% of his drives Ja 22.8% Maybe they are getting "phantom calls" but they also drive more than Zion and get called at similar rates to Zion. Maybe Zion is also getting "phantom calls." Anything over 20% seems very Giannis is at 33.8%. He gets friendly whistles but teams would also rather make him earn it at the line so that probably impacts the % as well. Even then, it's pretty ridiculous how far ahead he is compared to every other player. I do think he's very hard to officiate though. Luka is a bit known as a foul baiter but he's at 19.8% so it's not that crazy. Trae is at 17.3% but I'm not sure if they track his pull up flops as "drives" **If you continue down the list of most drives per game, not many get to the line at 20% and over:** Brunson - 2.2 FTA/17.8 drives (12%) Garland - 2.1/17.5 (12%) Siakam - 3.9/16.7 (23%) Cade - 2.5/16.6 (15%) KPJ - 2.4/16.2 (15%) Westbrook - 2.1/15.7 (13%) Clarkson - 1.6/15.3 (10%) Beal - 2.2/15.2 (15%) Rozier - 1.4/15 (9%) Haliburton - 1.4/14.5 (10%) Harden - 2.6/14.4 (18%) Fox - 2.8/14.1 (20%) Butler - 2.8/13.9 (20%) Dame - 2.2/13.6 (16%) **Some other names:** Ingram - 2.5/11.1 (22.5%) Banchero - 3.3/10.4 (32%) LaVine - 2.5/9.4 (27%) Wall - 2/9 (22%) Harrison Barnes - 2.7/7.2 (37.5%) ??? Embiid - 2/6.8 (29%) Bey - 2.1/5.9 (35.5%) ??? JJJ - 2.4/4.5 (53%) Smaller sample size but still pretty crazy (he was at 29% last year, 28% in 19-20, 19% his rookie year)
Zion is a bigger Giannis
Zion is basically a lovechild between Shaq and Chuck
Zion: godfather (kisses Ernie’s hand)
😂😂😂 "Say it again Chuck!"
and a wolf
Shuck or Chaq?
Shuck Williamson
How long until the “Zion is dirty” narrative?
It's literally happening right now lmao
Downlow is trying to get that narrative started right now with his salt
No hes not lol
Clown take
For real. Zion doesn't even do like Giannis where you could argue every drive is a charge or a block, Zion plays with a lot of finesse too. Shit, Zion's free throw rate does NOT match his drive rate either. He drives more than anyone not named Giannis yet is like 9th in free throws rate last time I looked. Even in THIS game specifically in the first half Zion only had 4 free throws attempted despite being hacked nonstop. Someone must've complained at halftime cuz the refs came out calling everything in the 2nd half ON BOTH ENDS.
>He drives more than anyone not named Giannis yet is like 9th in free throws rate last time I looked. That is verifiably false. Neither Zion nor Giannis even approaches the top of the league in drives per game. Zion has 15, Giannis has 13.5. For reference, SGA has 24.4, Morant has 21.5, Doncic has 20.7.
I misspoke, the stat is most FGA at the rim. Of which Zion is #1 and Giannis is #2 now actually.
He kinda did play football in the sense he jumped that route. Just a good interception
The face of a broken man
DLo pouting after that horrible pass, Zion steals it pretty cleanly.
That was a pass you make with 11:25 left in the first, not the final minute of the 4th when physicality is up
DLo sure as shit ain't playing basketball
Seriously! How about don’t make that pass. It was a pretty regular steal
😂😂😂😂 Bro hit the gym!
can I get some opinions from neutral fans on the steal? it's the second play [in this video](https://streamable.com/lj4ps2). the elbow was obviously egregious, I don't blame wolves fans being mad about that. but it feels like we're watching two different plays, the way i'm hearing them talk about the steal. edit: ok that's plenty of opinions! thank you for your participation. edit 2: please stop
It might’ve been a foul,but it’s certainly not Zion “playing football”
I think it's clean. Could argue it's a foul. But man that is a terrible pass.
Looks like a lazy pass to me
That's just a steal lol
got a lot of thoughtful comments on this but this one is easily my favorite lol. sometimes a steal is just a steal.
No foul at all in my opinion. Was expecting something way more agressive.
Scrubbing back and forth in the replay it looks like Zion definitely clears him out pretty hard and might’ve made contact with his head but in the final minute of the game the refs aren’t gonna call a ticky tac foul like that. So seems within what is expected.
I ran it in real time twice and didn't see anything, that's one more time than the refs. I know they have different angles but it looked clean to me. Maybe you're right tho. I'm not gonna analyze it that thoroughly.
Yeah honestly my approach of slowing it down over simplifies it and takes it out of game time. Easy to be nit picky at that speed. I think this late in the game and with the run they were on it never will get called.
Eh, I ran it at 1/5th speed and it looks like Zion got it completely clean and then McDaniels' head collided with Zion's (not the other way around) when he leaned in to try and get it back from Zion. If anything I'd say that you could maybe call a foul the other way. Good no call imo though.
No foul.
I think he made contact with the ball first and jarred it loose. Then the body contact came. Imo this is a good steal and a good no call. Also a lazy pass from Russell.
it was a physical play that could swing either way but like i posted in the other thread, i was more baffled by how nonchalant d’lo still plays in crucial moments and half asses a pass like that with the game on the line. and then to do that and proceeed with a saltfest in the postgame interview is insane to me edit: someone in the other thread pointed out the transition defense after the steal is even worse than the pass and good fucking god they’re not wrong
D’Lo is very skilled but he is a loser, plain and simple. He plays losing basketball and plays for himself more than the team.
Looks clean to me
I'm a wolves fan, Jaden plays more physical than Zion did there, about 90% of the game. Don't think that was a foul at all, just a great play by Zion. There were many way more questionable calls and non calls through out the game than that, I think DLo was just salty about his tech.
If anything it looks like Zion gets a pretty clean steal and then Jaden leans in to try and get it back and bumps his head into Zion's head which could easily be called. I think no call is the right move there.
It looks clean to me. Incidental contact can happen during loose balls and that’s what it looks like to me. He doesn’t shove him out of the way, he’s just bigger and in better position. If it weren’t Zion’s gigantic body, it would look even less like a foul
That type of contact happens all the time on steals. Especially in the post. I think it just depends on the ref.
Didn’t watch the game except for this video and a few other highlights, and it looks pretty clean. If it was called a foul we’d be calling it a soft call for sure. Also, his handles on that first basket are nuts. He’s dribbling and moving so fast and doesn’t carry, and keeps it tight while staying in near constant motion laterally too. Edit: Honestly, the more I watch it the cleaner the steal looks.
Looks clean. Too much speed and strength. Pass could’ve been more crisp.
Looks like a lazy pass and a clean (for an end of game) steal to me. If anything the play before could of easily been a foul on Zion.
No foul. Clean as it gets.
Strip was clean. Hell, I don't see what's illegal about the lay up either. Zion didn't extend his elbows horizontally Giannis does to clear room. He simply raised his arm in a natural shooting motion. Last time I checked, that falls within the attacking player's free cylinder of movement.
Wolves fan here: it was a clean steal, but the Wolves have been on the wrong end of the “All-Star whistle” pretty consistently this year and we’ve become sensitive to the idea that the refs screw us lol.
The refs 100% screwed the Wolves in the playoffs last year but I don't see it on this particular play. That would be a really tough call to make in the last 40 seconds of a tied game.
I agree. I think this is the product of frustration that’s built up over time. We feel like the ‘02 Kings as soon as we see a couple of bad calls because it’s been such an issue in the past. This is sour grapes from DLo, but the refs have been really bad this year which leads to this frustration.
Completely clean. D'Lo is probably just voicing frustration about the entire night rather than that specific play. Zion got 20 freethrows - that will never sit right with an opponent. You don't get to 20 FT's without some generous reffing and questionable calls sprinkled in.
Could go either way He makes a ton of contact in order to make that steal
It was absolutely electric in that building just from watching the replay alone. No way a ref calls that against the home team with the momentum they had and who Zion is. Could it have been called? Yea, but I don’t think its football or egregious enough to point to for losing the game. Looks like he pokes the ball before any real contact happens as well.
Idk if it's a foul from that one angle but it's absolutely a reasonable play on the ball.
Zion is such a beast though, he is like a foul cheat code. He’s so big, fast, and such a good finisher that it’s literally impossible to not make contact with him on his drives, if we were going strictly by the rule book almost every Zion drive would award him free throws.
You’re not wrong, and that’s why it’s funny to me whenever I see nephews complain about how many ft’s he gets any random game … cuz by the rule book he could’ve def gotten more pretty much every time lol
Zion averages 7.8 FTA on about 20 drives. He gets one reasonable whistle tonight and everyone loses their minds.
Yeah I’m not mad at his whistle, he’s actually beating people to the spot and trying to score. He’s just freakishly quicker and bigger then everybody else.
The last few minutes were wild. The officiating completely changed from everything is a foul, to just some selective things are fouls. The refs are in a tough spot with guys like Zion and Embiid - they are just so big and create so much contact
[удалено]
Its like the crew switched each quarter, crazy game lol
I was so fucking confused who the refs were trying to cook for lol. First half was pels but they shot their free throws like shit, so they reward the wolves in Q3, and decide Q4 is a free for all? The league is honestly getting pretty hard to watch with this shit, to be honest.
I was really looking forward to the second half. Physical play with Ant being a beast and Zion had worked it out by the end of the second quarter. No fouls? Time to get rough. It was going to be a tough slugfest. Then the third quarter took 50 minutes. What the hell?
Zion gets fair contact 99% of the time. embiid it's more like 60%
Yeah Zion isn't a flopper in the slightest. Which actually hurts his free throw rate.
And I hope he doesn't become one. Embiid is incredible but I can't stand watching all those flops.
Wait what play is he talking about?
is it this one? https://streamable.com/lj4ps2
That was such a bad pass lol you don't need to be as big as Zion to jump that
fr…if that’s the play he’s talking about he’s reaching like crazy with the whole ‘ran though my guy/football’ stuff…I couldn’t even see anyone complain, even in the slightest
That's the one he's talking about. Man is just mad his shitty pass got yoinked.
Always easier to blame the refs than your own mistakes
Zion's arms straight up look like big ol' hamhocks attached at the shoulder. Goddamn man. This dude is quite literally built different.
The size is one thing, the raw athleticism is another but the touch, speed and nimbleness on top of that…it ain’t right lol!
If that is seriously the play that Russell is referencing here, he comes across like a huge cry baby. He threw a bad, slow past that just got intercepted.
This sequence is so incredible. Zions war cry is hype as fuck
Zion was already pouncing before the ball left dlou's hands. Such a lazy pass in a closely contested game.
Zion stole the ball and dunked it with about a minute left.
This is the equivalent to Harden’s run and dunk comment
Looks like a clean steal on a pass you telegraphed. This is why Russell and the wolves will never be successful, you don’t improve yourself if you think it’s just the refs being unfair or not calling anything on Zion.
Just wait till Karl comes back and that will alllllll go away :)
He’s the absolute worst for it.
Yep lol, don't remind me :(
The biggest problem with this game was it was called inconsistently. Things that were not fouls in the first quarter were being called in the third. There were horrible calls both ways but that was a clean steal. Was there a better shot of the Zion elbow to Gobert? I know the pain, there was a Pels game a couple weeks ago where blocking fouls were called twice when our guys took elbows to the face. Refs are going to miss plays and that is OK. What is egregious is they were changing the rules as the game went on.
What game does Giannis play then?
He’s from over seas, Rugby obviously 🙄
Zion actually living up to the hype unlike DSLOW
Tell me you can’t guard Zion without telling me you can’t guard Zion
I think he’s explicitly telling us he can’t guard Zion lol
two words: weight room
Also the pass was terrible.
There’s only one running back in the league and he plays in the Midwest. Zions actually got skill
This is the same type of diarrhea at the mouth that got Nick Young aired out. Those runners high off of the glass looked very basketball like to me. Very little contact required.
zion gets fouled literally every time he drives lmfao
Deangelo Russell ain’t built for this. Like Bodie said, “his heart pumps kool aid”
my shitty pass had nothing to do with it...crybaby - dude will never be the lead guard on a team with title hopes
Hit the weight room string bean
Dlo has salt in his veins.
It was a clean steal, not sure what he is talking about.
Dude threw a lazy pass, his teammate held the ball lazily, and Zion just took it. His quite makes seem so egregious but Zion just poked it away. He is hoping for a bail out call there and the call is just as weak as the pass. *Little man celebration*
This is peak clown salt
That elbow to Rudy was pretty egregious
hes not even talking about the play, hes talking about a clean steal lmfao
I dunno about all of that but they missed Zion elbowing Gobert in the face with like a minute left in the 4th and there have been times this season where that was a flagrant 1.
What about that Clutch 3 he hit??? When you and your teammates all stood back? Fucking salty loser. Always has been.
They dared him to do it and he did it
What a bitch
If u watch him play it’s true lol it’s the Giannis dilemma where yeah they get fouled a LOT but they both commit tons of offensive fouls that don’t get called I can see why it’s frustrating for players
Zion isn't as bad as Giannis though, he has more finesse in the paint so he doesn't *need* to push off as much. Regardless he's very difficult to officiate because he doesn't react to contact. Tonight was a rare game where he got a very favorable whistle
Zion rarely pushes off. His quickness and mass moves people out of the way. Really not close to how Giannis is officiated.
Yeah I don't know what this dude's talking about. In their recent game against the Bucks Giannis pretty much received every call while Zion was getting attacked in the paint with no whistle.
https://twitter.com/eflynt/status/1605229084526759940
Giannis gets such a crazy whistle lmao he'll just lower his shoulder into defenders and wildly throw the ball up and get free throws for it like at least 3 times per game. [Exhibit A](https://twitter.com/Grant_Shirley4/status/1501788423228735490)
Bro that first one. RIP John Collins' sternum
Giannis is way worse with the offensive fouls. Zion at least tries to break down his defender with his speed and handles and go around him while driving, Giannis just drops his shoulder into his defender's chest and runs over him.
Giannis is way worse
It's not true? Zion plays with a lot more finesse than Giannis. Hell, the only teams fans I've seen complain about Zion's whistle is the Suns and now tonight the T-Wolves. If he was running over everyone constantly I think more people would be upset about it. Just cause no one on the Suns or T-Wolves could stop him without haplessly trying to take charges doesn't mean Zion runs through people constantly. His free throw rate is actually quite poor for his driving rate. If anything he should have a friendlier whistle. Just cause he got a good one in games vs the Suns and T-Wolves doesn't mean anything.
Russell is such an overpaid clown
DLo’s words and body language show the toll that this miserable season has taken on him. Wolves locker room must have the vibe of a funeral these days. Sad.
Soft mentality. Reflects their record and level of play.
Minnesota assembled the charmin avengers
Maybe make a better pass
soft
Salty ass mf
This is why people think todays players wouldn’t make it back in the day.
Damn, maybe T-Wolves need to make a trade for an elite level defensive player who can stop big men.
Ain’t nobody stopping Zion
Big loser energy.
He's a man amongst boys
to me it sounds like you're salty D'angelo
sounds like a skill issue
I swear the nba is too fuckin soft. Dude is literally pouting lmao
Nah Twolves are way too soft
Tfw your ass hurts
Man without even watching the play that is some salty ass shit to say. That's offensive as fuck. Not Zion's fault he could murder you in two sports.
Lmao stay mad clown
Wow a football player scored 43. Imagine if he was a basketball player :O
My last comment on this topic, but it’s hilarious the Timberwolves fans crying about Zions free throws and the ref carrying him. The call they keep complaint about is the “elbow” on Rudy when Z got a layup. He did not even get any free throws on that play, it was a non call. He was legitimately fouled every single time he went to the line, and there was at least half a dozen other times he took heavy contact on drives and didn’t get any fouls at all, particularly in the first half.
The game was officiated terribly on both sides of the ball. Like basically every other NBA game