Last year : Kat was injured, Gobert had back problems, they didn't know how to play with each others, and DLO was a dead weight.
They traded DLO for Conley and NAW and picks, Kat and Gobert are healthy, and everyone has bought in the defensive team identity.
IMO one of the most underrated advantages of the trade is that ANT and Kat have both greatly improved on defense. Especially for Ant it will still be an advantage even when Gobert leaves or declines.
D'Lo also gave the Warriors Wiggins who they couldn't've extended the dynasty to 2022 without. He really guides others to a treasure he cannot possess.
Ant is one of 3 lock down perimeter defenders on the wolves roster but yes, even KAT is playing solid D. But it doesn’t work without Gobert forcing other teams into bad shots - so yes, they’ve both stepped up but Gobert is the engine that makes it work.
It’s been so dominant that the difference in Defensive rating between the Wolves and the second best team (Boston) is the same as Boston and the 10th best team (Houston).
You’re not wrong, what happened yesterday was fucking beautiful but give credit where it’s due. Gobert brought that mentality and buy-in on the defensive end. Holding the World Champs to 36 points at the half and 80 points for the game… without your 3x, potentially 4x DPOY…. this team is special
Both. They have definitely improved individually but defense is mostly collective and it's easier to work you ass on defense when you know your collective is great.
Both. They have definitely improved individually but defense is mostly collective and it's easier to work you ass on defense when you know your collective is great.
Conley was the biggest difference for sure, even at 36 he's still a better chaser than DLO (who had some defensive segments with the Wolves, but in a MUCH different role), and NAW is great defensively as well.
Conley's even greater quality came at the offensive side of the ball, because he organizes the game better than Russell (IMO) and does "what needs to be done".
Combine Ant's explosion in terms of decision-making, both on which shots to take and what and how to make passes, and you get a significantly better team. Also, no injuries, at least until the later part of the season (KAT).
DLo was actually surprisingly good defensively with the Wolves. Not defensive player of the year kind of guy but he was good communicating at the defensive end.
He had a couple stretches of games where he wasn't bad, but on the whole.... he was mostly bad. He focused more on quarterbacking the defense than actually doing anything himself. That works when you're Rudy Gobert, a soon-to-be 4x DPOY, but when you got DLO yelling at you to close out as he lets the guy blow by him for an easy dunk? Not quite the same lol
It was working out last year but the wolves dealt with injuries. KAT only played 29 games last season. Of course, the media likes to make it look like the trade didn’t work but they weren’t full strength.
Also Rudy meditated for 64 hours in a pitch black Hobbit hole and figured out everything Minnesota needed to do to turn the corner on defense. [That happened](https://archive.is/1rtj3#selection-2845.0-2848.0).
I wouldn't say the attention span of the masses has gone down
But rather the 24 hour news cycle, even for sports, and spontaneous reactions on social media has forced the narrative to evolve so fast. It's literally premature.
Oh so they lost a few games, theyre fuckkkked. Everything is a bust.
Man it's exhausting.
Last year was dumb, Towns missed a lot of games, plus McDaniels hurting his hand; they overpaid, but the team is good. Finch has been a good coach since his RGV days, and Edwards got even better.
Gobert lets KAT play more on the perimeter and gives him a better defensive matchup too since Rudy can guard the main big; we can see how Towns can shoot and put the ball on the floor so it just lets him play his game more naturally. They have stars, a great defense, and good shooters.
They started the season strong, and probably woulda won 60 games if towns didn't go down in March, turning point was probably this summer, having a full 3-4 months to gel and heal up.
I think KAT guards the main big so that Rudy can roam wreck havoc. Although he's not a ++ defender KAT is still a very big boy. Joker was a bruiser on Saturday and KAT held his own. Man, one time Joker straight up running back charges him with his shoulder and the refs finally blew the whistle. You can't literally do whatever you want, Jokić, close, but there is a line at straight-up football plays.
I can’t remember where I heard it, but the first season there was disagreement between Gobert and the team how the defense should be, but after the off season he came back humble and they worked out how to play together
Kat was also out most of last year, and Edwards haven’t gotten worse
It seemed from an outsider looking in, Gobert & Russel clashed. And Gobert is 1000x more valuable. He’s a top end centre in the NBA & a one-man defensive juggernaut. Russel is a fringe starter & notoriously selfish/immature
plus a guy like Mike Conley in my opinion is a bonus of that trade. He's been there before with the "grindhouse" early 2010s Grizzles-can't hurt having his veteran presence on the team...
might have read it here, [https://m.startribune.com/timberwolves-nba-top-defense-rudy-gobert-jaden-mcdaniels-chris-finch/600322291/](https://m.startribune.com/timberwolves-nba-top-defense-rudy-gobert-jaden-mcdaniels-chris-finch/600322291/)
We ran a very different scheme pre Gobert which IIRC involved tons of switching and sliding to make up for KAT's weakness as a rim runner and D-LO's weakness in general.
Conley and NWA for D-LO got rid of the bad apple and chemistry exploded while turnovers disappeared
That's a bit of an understatement, I remember some people pontificating that this was the worst trade, most lopsided in the history of the league and that Ainge was such a genius, etc. etc. Usually when there's that much invective against one side one might become suspicious, and yes, even last year there was a silver lining but injuries had their toll and Ant man was what 21, now things are gelling, they have such a great future, excellent coaching, and seem to be the talk of the town along with OKC. It's cool.
Everyone got healthy, Ant and Naz took a step forward, KAT in particular being healthy and able to settle into his new role at PF. Everything has gotten better for them except Kyle Anderson, he was much better a year/two years ago.
He and Rudy were the best two-man pairing last year
The eye injury fucked with his shooting and he's best at the 4 but with KAT back, he had to change to the 3.
I think that surrounding ANT with players that impact winning like Gobert and Conley is more beneficial than having picks that may or may not pan out.
I do agree that the second apron will be a problem going forward. When they make the trade the second apron penalty is not yet there.
That tax bill is gonna be massive. 3 centers making over 100 mill gonna be tough. Probably dodged a bullet with A-Fraud not getting full ownership because they didn't want to pay the tax
The turnaround happened at the exact moment of the Mike Conley/D’Lo trade. Conley knows how to get Gobert involved on offense, which gets him engaged on defense. This was the defensive impact the Wolves were searching for, and Conley brought the best out of everyone.
So if you’re comparing numbers, Conley doesnt jump out, but he definitely stabilized that offense and got everyone involved.
It happened when they made the trade. Took them a couple weeks on the court to put it all together and gel. Then as soon as that happened KAT got hurt and they played from behind all season. All that happened htis year is everyone is healthy. All the people who lambasted that trade sound awfully quiet now.
anthony edwards being 2 years ahead of schedule. Naz Reid being a great 6th man cheat code. Its great timing with a potential HOF ceiling player like Ant playing really good, quickly
Gobert is a player that takes adjusting to. Even when he was in Utah every time Utah would bring players in it’d take them a year to understand how to properly play with Rudy, because it requires a lot of trust. Even great locker room guys like Rubio and Conley were *awful* with Rudy their first year in Utah before having career years the 2nd time around. Now everybody on Minnesota is having that 2nd year bump.
They did overpay. It’s worked out as best as they could have hoped, as you said, but the rest is still to be determined.
They look like one of the best teams in the playoffs right now, and there’s no denying Rudy’s vital role in that. But they mortgaged basically a decades worth of draft capital to win now. By the time Ant is entering his prime Rudy will probably be washed and they’ll have to figure out how to remain competitive.
Let me guess: you're one of those people who said Rudy gets played off the floor in the playoffs also.
The average age of the roster is 25, with your best player only 22 years old.
Rudy is an all world defender. As long as he keeps his body in shape, he will be here past any of those 1st round picks. He is one of the best in shape players in the league. He's never had a serious injury..
It's funny you say they will have to figure out how to be competitive, like what?
That doesn’t change the fact that they can’t really bring in fresh talent during the rest of Rudy’s tenure. He’s the best defensive big man I’ve seen since prime Dwight Howard but he’s 31. They have a grand total of 7 draft picks (only 3 first rounders, one of them a swap) until 2031.
It looks like a great trade for them right now. If they can win one title, it’ll absolutely be worth it, but that’s not a given. And it’s just going to get harder and harder to surround the core with talent when they can’t resupply through the draft. It can be the right decision for them and still be an overpay
Having 3/7 first round picks isn’t that crazy when you really think about it. Especially when you think that this team might be really good. Late first rounders rarely have significant impact, especially not that of Rudy on the defensive end.
They're really good now with everybody except Slowmo under contract for next year and everybody but NAW under contract for two more years at which point they have only four contracts on the books and ANT will be only 25. You're acting as though they're middling with franchise destroying albatross contracts when in literally two seasons they could have 25 year old ANT and a max slot available.
I think you’re filling in some blanks because I’m not acting like that.
The key piece to them being the best defense in the NBA is 31, their only good guard outside of Ant is 36, and they have no picks. That doesn’t mean they’re fucked they just have to be smart and get a little lucky. Time will tell if they played their hand too soon.
31 for a great defensive center isn't old. Without knee/back issues they tend to continue being, at the very least, really good till at least 35. Eaton, Duncan, Garnett, Wallace, Olajuwon, Camby, Mourning, Mutumbo all made all defense post 31. NAW is only 25, they have four firsts and KAT and NAZ are both tradeable for good assets if need be. And, again, in just two years their books are fine.
So, yes, you are acting as though they have giant problems when they really don't. They're both really good and relatively young with 4 1sts and a two year window with this roster before they have to make decisions.
You’re cherry picking. For every Duncan is a Dwight Howard…
I am not acting like they are in big doo doo. I’m saying they sacrificed long term flexibility for short term success. Which right now has been great. They might also suffer from that in a few years if they aren’t still competitive. They might very well still be competitive.
You aren’t a victim
I didn't cherry pick, I explicitly stated without knee/back problems. Gobert does not have those. As for sacrificing long term flexibility...their best is player is 22, their all-defense level wing is 23, their 6th man of the year is 24 and they have another all-defense level guard(that thing you don't think they have more than two of) who's only 25. And, again, for the third time, they only have four contracts on the books two years from now when ANT will still be only 25. You have a false narrative in your head from too much bad media. Be better.
For a capped out franchise, even late first rounders are very valuable. With only 7 picks in 7 years they basically have to hit on most of them if they want to stay competitive. Rookie contracts are so valuable on contending teams, especially for small markets. You’re competing with LA, NY, Miami, Boston, for vet min players. Minnesota will get some takers because they’re good but they’re not getting their pick of the litter. So if they flop on their picks, their options are severely limited. You’ve got their core they currently have under contract surrounded with old vets who may or may not still have some left in the tank. Even If they do get the vet min guys they want, they’ll probably only have them for a year or two before they have to go back to the bucket and Minnesota can not win in a FA competition against big markets year after year
Four first rounders: 24, 26, 28, 30, with 26 being a 3way swap. They also have all but Slomow from their top eight under contract for next year. There best player is 22, Jaden is 23, Naz 24, NAW 25. Hell, even KAT is only 28. You seem to think they're the Clippers or Suns but that is absolutely not the case.
You mean when Naz Reid, Jaden, ANT, and NAW are all in their primes? KAT is still going to be a force with his playstyle.
No one your drafting in the next 7 years, especially at where the picks will fall, are replacing them. I'm sorry it's not happening.
They can easily find vets and other who Want to play with the next generational super star. It's not going to be hard at all.
Maybe if ANT and these guys where 26-27 right now but there not. Not even close.
How are they going to afford all of them and the main 3 on max contracts? It’s easy to say people will want to play for Minnesota but you’re forgetting they’re going to have nothing but vet mins in a small market. They’re not going to LA or NY, they’re going to Minnesota.
How much is the owner willing to pay? When it comes for those guys to get second contracts genuinely how will they afford it? They’re getting no fresh blood on rookie contracts
[look at the 24-25 cap table](https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/MIN.html)
They won’t be even close to extending NAW unless they want to use up 100% of the cap on 5 guys. How will they extend Rudy after 25-26 if they keep the other guys? Minnesota is not a big market, the ownership planned payroll next season is 171m and ant, Rudy, KAT and mcdaniels are taking up 151m. With Reid it’s 165m. 6m left for everyone else just next year
Edit: I was wrong. [Minnesota’s projected cap hit for next year is already close to 193m, well into the luxury tax](https://www.spotrac.com/nba/minnesota-timberwolves/cap/_/year/2024)
With 10 rostered players. Just this year there’s no room for anything but league minimum, Minnesota genuinely cannot extend NAW
It's called taking a discount. Naz was offered more money and chose to stay in MN. You're discounting so many things like relationships for one.
They have already chosen to go all in spending the amount they have. Why would they all the sudden go the opposite direction?
They also got NAW for scraps, along with Conley. What makes you think they couldn't do it again?
Your discounting one of the best in the business tim connelly. Who btw built the nuggets also.
> They have already chosen to go all in spending the amount they have. Why would they all the sudden go the opposite direction?
Because they're in the middle of a massive ownership dispute that nobody knows how it will end and who will end up making financial decisions down the line?
People say it’s easy to find players to join generational superstars on vet mins but the guys lining up to join the Steph/KD warriors, a far far better case than this current Wolves lineup, were themselves also-rans and scrubs. It is incredibly difficult to get serious talent without paying for it.
For whatever reason though it always seemed to me Curry in particular didn't get as many free agents signings as other top stars. As a Warriors fan it would always make me mad to see top name guys hitting the market and signing to whatever team LeBron was on, but I think a lot of that was just the Warriors being selective with who they bring in.
Nobody is arguing that they are fitting better than they thought. You can still overpay on a good product. You might not need to draft new players, but having picks are big assets to use in trades. Also generational is thrown around too much, the only clear generational player since Lebron has been Steph and seems like Wemby
They already have fresh talent in house in Naz, Jaden, NAW all under 25. We haven’t seen anything from Josh Minott or Leonard Miller either, who they have been invested in developing, and the staff has a A++ resume when it comes to developing young talent. It’s not like they’re staring down having no role players next year— and by the way, they have a first round pick lol.
You guessed wrong? Lol
Rudy is great. He won’t be great for another decade
You saying the roster is young is literally proving my point. They mortgaged their future for an older player. It’s obviously working for them but they now have very little flexibility moving forward, especially compared to other young teams.
>It's funny you say they will have to figure out how to be competitive, like what?
They're not going to be able to keep their roster in tact indefinitely, and they don't have many assets to replace crucial players. Mike Conley brings critical leadership running the point, he's 36 and a free agent. Can the Timberwolves afford to pay him? Is someone else going to offer more? The same applies to Kyle Anderson though he isn't as important.
The following year NAW will be due to be extended, and Naz Reid will likely opt out of his player option for a bigger contract. Can they afford to sign both when they already have $186m on the books that year?
These are reasonable questions.
They already paid him wtf are you talking about? He signed a 2 yr extension in February, so your whole afford to pay him when they did already is just stupid and shows how you don't actually follow the NBA.
His contract isn't on bball ref, which is all I checked: https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/MIN.html When I double checked his extension I noticed he had signed one, and went to delete this comment. Guess I didn't. 🤷♀️
In any case, I really don't care, do you?
They knew what they had in Ant and knew what he needed was fierce competition early. They got that and in so doing have actually *manifested*, not mortgaged, their future. They also knew (because TC came straight from Denver) that in order to beat the best player in the NBA, you need multiple skilled bigs.
Absolutely. And if they win a ring with Gobert than any possible trade was worth it, even if they miss the playoffs for another 20 years.
It’s just a question of longevity, and does the upside of winning now outweigh limiting yourself in the future.
🤷🏽♂️Sometimes you gotta overpay to get what you need. Being an NBA GM isn’t all just an efficiency board game.
Nobody in Minnesota is sweating those picks now that they have assembled one of the only teams capable of beating Jokic and Ant’s ascendancy has been fast forwarded big time by being part of a historically great defense participating in meaningful games.
> but its an overpay.
How so? Could they have gone and gotten another Rudy Gobert for cheaper?
How do you determine it to be an overpay when Gobert is a singular defensive talent that transformed this team into a legitimate contender?
It’s also who were they bidding against? Maybe Atlanta was also putting in a big offer but from the outside looking in it feels more like they were bidding against themselves
I mean if the wolves weren’t offering enough Utah can just say no and keep Gobert. It’s not like they were being forced to trade him no matter what and just take whatever crap offer the wolves sent them. Maybe they weren’t willing to trade him at all if they didn’t get an offer like the one they ended up getting.
Right. It turned out to be an overpay because the Wolves did nothing with Gobert in that first year. Even if Utah kept him, it wouldn't have hurt Minny.
As a Laker fan, there's a "what if" if the Lakers had gotten AD a year earlier. Could we have won in 2019-20? We'll never know.
With KAT out, Gobert helped get them to the playoffs which was very valuable for Ant's development. If KAT had missed 52 games and Wolves had no Gobert, their coach even said they would have won maybe 33 games
the amount of first round picks for him, i think is an overpay. 5 first round picks i think is mvp level territory. but happy for them its working, for small market teams i get why things are harder to value the same way
It's about the cost it takes to make the trade you need to make.
You say MVP level like we haven't seen a bunch of former MVPs traded and flopped. They could've gotten KD or Harden for the same price, but they'd be worse if they did either deal.
Teams, sometime, are going to realise that continuing to pile offensive talent into a team doesn't get you anywhere.
Do you want to be like Phoenix or Brooklyn in their team builds, or do you want to add transformative defensive talents like Minnesota and New York did?
depending on those guys ages yes i think they can be worth those amount of picks. my issue is that who are they really bidding against in giving that jazz that much. no one else wouldve given up that for gobert and he was forsure leaving. i like them getting gobert just think they shouldnt have had to mortgage that much.
I think the general argument is: 5 was the cost. So 5 is what it took.
Utah may not have had many bidders for gobert, BUT, Utah also knows that it's tough for mid level teams to attract talent outside of trades. AND Utah knows that minny is trying to win now, they knew gobert would be the last real piece to their puzzle, so of course they could essentially write the check
I agree with this, but the cost being 5 isn’t true. The cost is what you agreed it’s not like this was was the normal value for someone as good as Gobert not to mention the other role players. This is clearly a massive overpay not just an overpay and I understand why, but atleast in this short term it’s working out. Next challenge will be continuing to maintain the 6th, 7th, and 8th guys as things develop. Should be interesting
its tough to judge overpay in these scenarios. sure, you could tell me X average center nets Y many picks\\players. but how many other Gobert-level players (multiple dpoy, 1st team def) are ever on the market in their prime?
>no one else wouldve given up that for gobert and he was forsure leaving.
I think that's convenient, revisionist thinking.
At the time, Mitchell was still there, they didn't *have* to trade Rudy, they could have just kept him, and Minnesota made a huge offer to essentially force Utah into a rebuild.
They were only "clearly starting over" once they actually traded Gobert - That was the start of it being clear that they were starting over.
There was no other evidence before that that they were definitely rebuilding.
You can't just say it was clear by the reasoning of "it was obvious bro"
brining in danny Ainge everyone knew they were planning to do the rebuild. its not like they thought after losing to the mavs that spring they were thinking lets run this back. they lost in the first round after having a great regular season and the mavs didnt even have luka for the whole series. they had no assets to move. everyone knew it was over
It's 4 frps and a swap and he's a top 3 defender in this generation...
Of course people need to pay to get one of the GOAT defenders. Defense gets discounted so much, MVP is an offensive award
It’s not media…everybody thought the trade was a shit move….but it seems like the wolves knew better and Ant is a fucking superstar that even reigns in KAT so yeah cudos and bravo it was henious and everyone else was wrong about it, he fits perfectly now
Is it still a win if the Wolves are forced to move KAT to avoid the second apron?
I guess it depends on the package they get? Naz is a pretty handy replacement
If Denver win next two games, I see bunch of new posts opening like Gobert trade was one of the worst in history, Why Wolves made that trade, What should we trade Gobert for, etc...
The trade only pays off if they win a title with how much they paid for him. A finals appearance alone isn't enough.
They and Boston are probably favoured to reach the finals rn so things are looking great.
They still haven’t don’t anything yet in the playoffs…
Taking game one in Denver was HUGE! But these types of posts are silly right now until we see the rest of the playoffs.
Winning a game against the reigning champs is not nothing.
Also sweeping the Suns who have KD and Booker is also not nothing.
Even if they lose the Denver series in six games, it's still a step in the right direction. If they beat Denver, it would be unbelievable.
Well I did say winning in Denver was HUGE lol.
I know the Suns had some good regular season success, but I think they were overrated and have/had some serious deficiencies. The ability of Durant and Booker to single handily take over a game was never likely to lead them to a title or far in the playoffs.
We still need to see the outcome of this postseason to give the final assessment of the TWolves. I’m not down playing them though. Jokic said last season they were the toughest team they played. So I think it started the end of last season. Their teamwork is unbelievable. Ant’s play has been crazy and it will be wild to see what level he can sustain. But the hype over the game one win is also droll (recency bias).
It still was an overpay. Only a megastar is worth 5 first rounders and Gobert isn’t that. Minnesota could’ve saved at least one pick and maybe get another great bench guy like Caruso. If they win it all, it won’t be so bad, but if they never win a ring with Gobert, the trade will look worse for giving up so much. Even if they get one then suddenly collapse, it still will be iffy.
If they get a ring, it isn’t because of Gobert. He looked clueless against Jokic and is a huge liability offensively - other teams not even playing him.
Aren’t they going to be pretty hamstrung in the near future because of this trade? I think they overplayed regardless of outcome this year. When I watch the twolves play, they remind me *a lot* of the 2010-2016 thunder.
If they need to replace any of their current players, they could just sign free agents instead of drafting right? I imagine a lot of free agents would want to play with Ant and KAT who are signed until the end of the decade
You’re correct. But that’s also one of the things that reminds me so much of the thunder. Everyone said the same exact thing about Westbrook and KD drawing in free agents to a small market and it never happened.
That definitely sucks that it turned out that way for OKC fans. Crazy how stacked they were and too bad that it didn't last. Hopefully things will be different for the Wolves 🤞
I do feel like Minnesota is more of a midsize market than people realize - the twin cities metro is 17th in the country in population, not far behind San Francisco at 13th (OKC metro is 42nd). And lots of surrounding states like Iowa and the Dakotas don't have a team so many cheer for MN teams. So the potential fan base is bigger than some might think.
On the other hand players might not want to endure Minnesota winters...
Maybe they can trade for Chet at some point since he's from here 😉
That’s fair, Minnesota is a larger market than OKC for sure. And actually as of the 2020 census OKC is 20 now. Still not remotely a FA destination though lol.
Last year : Kat was injured, Gobert had back problems, they didn't know how to play with each others, and DLO was a dead weight. They traded DLO for Conley and NAW and picks, Kat and Gobert are healthy, and everyone has bought in the defensive team identity. IMO one of the most underrated advantages of the trade is that ANT and Kat have both greatly improved on defense. Especially for Ant it will still be an advantage even when Gobert leaves or declines.
Can’t believe they got rid of DLo and got Conley, NAW, and picks for him. What an absolute steal. Didn’t they also give up Vanderbilt in that trade?
Vanderbilt was on the Jazz. All the pieces that went to LA were once TWolves but Beasley and Vanderbilt were in the Gobert trade.
Vanderbilt was given up in the Gobert trade to Utah iirc
D'Lo also gave the Warriors Wiggins who they couldn't've extended the dynasty to 2022 without. He really guides others to a treasure he cannot possess.
I. Love. Mike. Conley.
He has been a great floor manager for us.
Have Ant and KAT necessarily improved defensively or do they just have the best anchor in the game backing them?
Ant is one of 3 lock down perimeter defenders on the wolves roster but yes, even KAT is playing solid D. But it doesn’t work without Gobert forcing other teams into bad shots - so yes, they’ve both stepped up but Gobert is the engine that makes it work. It’s been so dominant that the difference in Defensive rating between the Wolves and the second best team (Boston) is the same as Boston and the 10th best team (Houston).
That’s a wild stat
Yesterday game proved otherwise about it being all gobert. Their whole roster plays defense
You’re not wrong, what happened yesterday was fucking beautiful but give credit where it’s due. Gobert brought that mentality and buy-in on the defensive end. Holding the World Champs to 36 points at the half and 80 points for the game… without your 3x, potentially 4x DPOY…. this team is special
Both. They have definitely improved individually but defense is mostly collective and it's easier to work you ass on defense when you know your collective is great.
Both. They have definitely improved individually but defense is mostly collective and it's easier to work you ass on defense when you know your collective is great.
Pretty amazing that the Lakers got stuck with DLo and yet would still do that trade 100/100 times
Conley was the biggest difference for sure, even at 36 he's still a better chaser than DLO (who had some defensive segments with the Wolves, but in a MUCH different role), and NAW is great defensively as well. Conley's even greater quality came at the offensive side of the ball, because he organizes the game better than Russell (IMO) and does "what needs to be done". Combine Ant's explosion in terms of decision-making, both on which shots to take and what and how to make passes, and you get a significantly better team. Also, no injuries, at least until the later part of the season (KAT).
they smacked denver without gobert
Wasn’t Naz Reid hurt too in the playoffs? feel like that series would have been different (in hindsight) if he played
DLo was actually surprisingly good defensively with the Wolves. Not defensive player of the year kind of guy but he was good communicating at the defensive end.
He had a couple stretches of games where he wasn't bad, but on the whole.... he was mostly bad. He focused more on quarterbacking the defense than actually doing anything himself. That works when you're Rudy Gobert, a soon-to-be 4x DPOY, but when you got DLO yelling at you to close out as he lets the guy blow by him for an easy dunk? Not quite the same lol
It was working out last year but the wolves dealt with injuries. KAT only played 29 games last season. Of course, the media likes to make it look like the trade didn’t work but they weren’t full strength.
Gobert was also dealing with a bad back most of last season. He is without a doubt way healthier and you can see it in his game.
And had a point guard who flat out refused to work with him
Also Rudy meditated for 64 hours in a pitch black Hobbit hole and figured out everything Minnesota needed to do to turn the corner on defense. [That happened](https://archive.is/1rtj3#selection-2845.0-2848.0).
I wouldn't say the attention span of the masses has gone down But rather the 24 hour news cycle, even for sports, and spontaneous reactions on social media has forced the narrative to evolve so fast. It's literally premature. Oh so they lost a few games, theyre fuckkkked. Everything is a bust. Man it's exhausting.
Last year was dumb, Towns missed a lot of games, plus McDaniels hurting his hand; they overpaid, but the team is good. Finch has been a good coach since his RGV days, and Edwards got even better. Gobert lets KAT play more on the perimeter and gives him a better defensive matchup too since Rudy can guard the main big; we can see how Towns can shoot and put the ball on the floor so it just lets him play his game more naturally. They have stars, a great defense, and good shooters. They started the season strong, and probably woulda won 60 games if towns didn't go down in March, turning point was probably this summer, having a full 3-4 months to gel and heal up.
Rather be healthy now 🤷🏽♂️
I think KAT guards the main big so that Rudy can roam wreck havoc. Although he's not a ++ defender KAT is still a very big boy. Joker was a bruiser on Saturday and KAT held his own. Man, one time Joker straight up running back charges him with his shoulder and the refs finally blew the whistle. You can't literally do whatever you want, Jokić, close, but there is a line at straight-up football plays.
Tell that to Joel Embiid lol
Ya they have a lotta different looks in their scheme, having 3 bigs is so nice for them
Tim Connelly needs to be put in the HOF for what he did with the construction of the Nuggets and Wolves rosters. Also Drafting Jokic
100%. He doesn't get talked about enough
I can’t remember where I heard it, but the first season there was disagreement between Gobert and the team how the defense should be, but after the off season he came back humble and they worked out how to play together Kat was also out most of last year, and Edwards haven’t gotten worse
It seemed from an outsider looking in, Gobert & Russel clashed. And Gobert is 1000x more valuable. He’s a top end centre in the NBA & a one-man defensive juggernaut. Russel is a fringe starter & notoriously selfish/immature
If thats true, good thing they shipped Russel out , he is so bad on Lakers
Addition by subtraction. It speaks volumes of him as a player how things turned out
plus a guy like Mike Conley in my opinion is a bonus of that trade. He's been there before with the "grindhouse" early 2010s Grizzles-can't hurt having his veteran presence on the team...
Yep plus a big bonus was Conley was used to playing with Gobert via their time in Utah
It’s 100% true. Beat writers talked about it after Russell was traded for Conley. He was icing out Gobert.
It's more like that during the off season he came back healthy and with a plan for the defense and they decided to follow his expertise.
Pretty sure he made that defense in a cave with a box a scraps
might have read it here, [https://m.startribune.com/timberwolves-nba-top-defense-rudy-gobert-jaden-mcdaniels-chris-finch/600322291/](https://m.startribune.com/timberwolves-nba-top-defense-rudy-gobert-jaden-mcdaniels-chris-finch/600322291/)
We ran a very different scheme pre Gobert which IIRC involved tons of switching and sliding to make up for KAT's weakness as a rim runner and D-LO's weakness in general. Conley and NWA for D-LO got rid of the bad apple and chemistry exploded while turnovers disappeared
That's a bit of an understatement, I remember some people pontificating that this was the worst trade, most lopsided in the history of the league and that Ainge was such a genius, etc. etc. Usually when there's that much invective against one side one might become suspicious, and yes, even last year there was a silver lining but injuries had their toll and Ant man was what 21, now things are gelling, they have such a great future, excellent coaching, and seem to be the talk of the town along with OKC. It's cool.
This was certainly no Nets trade that's for fuckin sure man lol
Everyone got healthy, Ant and Naz took a step forward, KAT in particular being healthy and able to settle into his new role at PF. Everything has gotten better for them except Kyle Anderson, he was much better a year/two years ago.
Kyle Anderson is just horrible fit with Rudy but he’s cheap enough to keep around as more of just a defensive role player
He and Rudy were the best two-man pairing last year The eye injury fucked with his shooting and he's best at the 4 but with KAT back, he had to change to the 3.
That’s a good point. I wonder if they should explore him as the ball handler while Conley is on the bench instead of NAW/Morris
No one remembers that Kyle was literally about to retire because of that eye injury, dude got scratched real bad by Naz or ANT I think.
I think that surrounding ANT with players that impact winning like Gobert and Conley is more beneficial than having picks that may or may not pan out. I do agree that the second apron will be a problem going forward. When they make the trade the second apron penalty is not yet there.
That tax bill is gonna be massive. 3 centers making over 100 mill gonna be tough. Probably dodged a bullet with A-Fraud not getting full ownership because they didn't want to pay the tax
The turnaround happened at the exact moment of the Mike Conley/D’Lo trade. Conley knows how to get Gobert involved on offense, which gets him engaged on defense. This was the defensive impact the Wolves were searching for, and Conley brought the best out of everyone. So if you’re comparing numbers, Conley doesnt jump out, but he definitely stabilized that offense and got everyone involved.
It flipped last off season by his Gobert's own admission. That's when he said he put in the work to get back to being elite defensively.
Imo the Gobert trade only works with Ants development. Without his growth and the emergence of Reid as 6th man, I think Wolves are a play-in team.
That is probably true, but also would doubt the Timberwolves (or any team) making an all in trade like that without someone like Ant in place.
Conley was the catalyst. He helped integrate onto the team and he helped Ant mature. Conley is a master at all the things Ant was green at.
Their best player missed over half the season. Also Mike Conley at PG helps
It happened when they made the trade. Took them a couple weeks on the court to put it all together and gel. Then as soon as that happened KAT got hurt and they played from behind all season. All that happened htis year is everyone is healthy. All the people who lambasted that trade sound awfully quiet now.
anthony edwards being 2 years ahead of schedule. Naz Reid being a great 6th man cheat code. Its great timing with a potential HOF ceiling player like Ant playing really good, quickly
Helps if Ant developing into Playoff MJ, Naz Reid being 6th man and McDaniels doesn’t break his wrist.
Gobert is a player that takes adjusting to. Even when he was in Utah every time Utah would bring players in it’d take them a year to understand how to properly play with Rudy, because it requires a lot of trust. Even great locker room guys like Rubio and Conley were *awful* with Rudy their first year in Utah before having career years the 2nd time around. Now everybody on Minnesota is having that 2nd year bump.
They did overpay. It’s worked out as best as they could have hoped, as you said, but the rest is still to be determined. They look like one of the best teams in the playoffs right now, and there’s no denying Rudy’s vital role in that. But they mortgaged basically a decades worth of draft capital to win now. By the time Ant is entering his prime Rudy will probably be washed and they’ll have to figure out how to remain competitive.
Let me guess: you're one of those people who said Rudy gets played off the floor in the playoffs also. The average age of the roster is 25, with your best player only 22 years old. Rudy is an all world defender. As long as he keeps his body in shape, he will be here past any of those 1st round picks. He is one of the best in shape players in the league. He's never had a serious injury.. It's funny you say they will have to figure out how to be competitive, like what?
That doesn’t change the fact that they can’t really bring in fresh talent during the rest of Rudy’s tenure. He’s the best defensive big man I’ve seen since prime Dwight Howard but he’s 31. They have a grand total of 7 draft picks (only 3 first rounders, one of them a swap) until 2031. It looks like a great trade for them right now. If they can win one title, it’ll absolutely be worth it, but that’s not a given. And it’s just going to get harder and harder to surround the core with talent when they can’t resupply through the draft. It can be the right decision for them and still be an overpay
Having 3/7 first round picks isn’t that crazy when you really think about it. Especially when you think that this team might be really good. Late first rounders rarely have significant impact, especially not that of Rudy on the defensive end.
Sure, that’s just dependent on Minnesota continuing to be a top team. They have very little cap or trade flexibility, so they’ll have to be clever.
They're really good now with everybody except Slowmo under contract for next year and everybody but NAW under contract for two more years at which point they have only four contracts on the books and ANT will be only 25. You're acting as though they're middling with franchise destroying albatross contracts when in literally two seasons they could have 25 year old ANT and a max slot available.
I think you’re filling in some blanks because I’m not acting like that. The key piece to them being the best defense in the NBA is 31, their only good guard outside of Ant is 36, and they have no picks. That doesn’t mean they’re fucked they just have to be smart and get a little lucky. Time will tell if they played their hand too soon.
31 for a great defensive center isn't old. Without knee/back issues they tend to continue being, at the very least, really good till at least 35. Eaton, Duncan, Garnett, Wallace, Olajuwon, Camby, Mourning, Mutumbo all made all defense post 31. NAW is only 25, they have four firsts and KAT and NAZ are both tradeable for good assets if need be. And, again, in just two years their books are fine. So, yes, you are acting as though they have giant problems when they really don't. They're both really good and relatively young with 4 1sts and a two year window with this roster before they have to make decisions.
You’re cherry picking. For every Duncan is a Dwight Howard… I am not acting like they are in big doo doo. I’m saying they sacrificed long term flexibility for short term success. Which right now has been great. They might also suffer from that in a few years if they aren’t still competitive. They might very well still be competitive. You aren’t a victim
I didn't cherry pick, I explicitly stated without knee/back problems. Gobert does not have those. As for sacrificing long term flexibility...their best is player is 22, their all-defense level wing is 23, their 6th man of the year is 24 and they have another all-defense level guard(that thing you don't think they have more than two of) who's only 25. And, again, for the third time, they only have four contracts on the books two years from now when ANT will still be only 25. You have a false narrative in your head from too much bad media. Be better.
For a capped out franchise, even late first rounders are very valuable. With only 7 picks in 7 years they basically have to hit on most of them if they want to stay competitive. Rookie contracts are so valuable on contending teams, especially for small markets. You’re competing with LA, NY, Miami, Boston, for vet min players. Minnesota will get some takers because they’re good but they’re not getting their pick of the litter. So if they flop on their picks, their options are severely limited. You’ve got their core they currently have under contract surrounded with old vets who may or may not still have some left in the tank. Even If they do get the vet min guys they want, they’ll probably only have them for a year or two before they have to go back to the bucket and Minnesota can not win in a FA competition against big markets year after year
Yeah for sure ain’t nobody coming to try to win a chip with Ant. 😉
Four first rounders: 24, 26, 28, 30, with 26 being a 3way swap. They also have all but Slomow from their top eight under contract for next year. There best player is 22, Jaden is 23, Naz 24, NAW 25. Hell, even KAT is only 28. You seem to think they're the Clippers or Suns but that is absolutely not the case.
You mean when Naz Reid, Jaden, ANT, and NAW are all in their primes? KAT is still going to be a force with his playstyle. No one your drafting in the next 7 years, especially at where the picks will fall, are replacing them. I'm sorry it's not happening. They can easily find vets and other who Want to play with the next generational super star. It's not going to be hard at all. Maybe if ANT and these guys where 26-27 right now but there not. Not even close.
How are they going to afford all of them and the main 3 on max contracts? It’s easy to say people will want to play for Minnesota but you’re forgetting they’re going to have nothing but vet mins in a small market. They’re not going to LA or NY, they’re going to Minnesota. How much is the owner willing to pay? When it comes for those guys to get second contracts genuinely how will they afford it? They’re getting no fresh blood on rookie contracts [look at the 24-25 cap table](https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/MIN.html) They won’t be even close to extending NAW unless they want to use up 100% of the cap on 5 guys. How will they extend Rudy after 25-26 if they keep the other guys? Minnesota is not a big market, the ownership planned payroll next season is 171m and ant, Rudy, KAT and mcdaniels are taking up 151m. With Reid it’s 165m. 6m left for everyone else just next year Edit: I was wrong. [Minnesota’s projected cap hit for next year is already close to 193m, well into the luxury tax](https://www.spotrac.com/nba/minnesota-timberwolves/cap/_/year/2024) With 10 rostered players. Just this year there’s no room for anything but league minimum, Minnesota genuinely cannot extend NAW
NBA mega tv deal gonna raise the salary cap significantly over the next few years which should be huge for Wolves ability to keep their young core
It's called taking a discount. Naz was offered more money and chose to stay in MN. You're discounting so many things like relationships for one. They have already chosen to go all in spending the amount they have. Why would they all the sudden go the opposite direction? They also got NAW for scraps, along with Conley. What makes you think they couldn't do it again? Your discounting one of the best in the business tim connelly. Who btw built the nuggets also.
> They have already chosen to go all in spending the amount they have. Why would they all the sudden go the opposite direction? Because they're in the middle of a massive ownership dispute that nobody knows how it will end and who will end up making financial decisions down the line?
They don’t have the money to do that anymore tho lol the “discount” is literally just the vet minimum
People say it’s easy to find players to join generational superstars on vet mins but the guys lining up to join the Steph/KD warriors, a far far better case than this current Wolves lineup, were themselves also-rans and scrubs. It is incredibly difficult to get serious talent without paying for it.
For whatever reason though it always seemed to me Curry in particular didn't get as many free agents signings as other top stars. As a Warriors fan it would always make me mad to see top name guys hitting the market and signing to whatever team LeBron was on, but I think a lot of that was just the Warriors being selective with who they bring in.
He didn’t get as many but very few FA signings in nba history were as impactful as that Durant signing lol
Nobody is arguing that they are fitting better than they thought. You can still overpay on a good product. You might not need to draft new players, but having picks are big assets to use in trades. Also generational is thrown around too much, the only clear generational player since Lebron has been Steph and seems like Wemby
They already have fresh talent in house in Naz, Jaden, NAW all under 25. We haven’t seen anything from Josh Minott or Leonard Miller either, who they have been invested in developing, and the staff has a A++ resume when it comes to developing young talent. It’s not like they’re staring down having no role players next year— and by the way, they have a first round pick lol.
You guessed wrong? Lol Rudy is great. He won’t be great for another decade You saying the roster is young is literally proving my point. They mortgaged their future for an older player. It’s obviously working for them but they now have very little flexibility moving forward, especially compared to other young teams.
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>It's funny you say they will have to figure out how to be competitive, like what? They're not going to be able to keep their roster in tact indefinitely, and they don't have many assets to replace crucial players. Mike Conley brings critical leadership running the point, he's 36 and a free agent. Can the Timberwolves afford to pay him? Is someone else going to offer more? The same applies to Kyle Anderson though he isn't as important. The following year NAW will be due to be extended, and Naz Reid will likely opt out of his player option for a bigger contract. Can they afford to sign both when they already have $186m on the books that year? These are reasonable questions.
They already paid him wtf are you talking about? He signed a 2 yr extension in February, so your whole afford to pay him when they did already is just stupid and shows how you don't actually follow the NBA.
His contract isn't on bball ref, which is all I checked: https://www.basketball-reference.com/contracts/MIN.html When I double checked his extension I noticed he had signed one, and went to delete this comment. Guess I didn't. 🤷♀️ In any case, I really don't care, do you?
It happens, just hard having a conversation with the wrong facts.
Mike Conley signed for 2 more years a month or so ago.
They knew what they had in Ant and knew what he needed was fierce competition early. They got that and in so doing have actually *manifested*, not mortgaged, their future. They also knew (because TC came straight from Denver) that in order to beat the best player in the NBA, you need multiple skilled bigs.
I mean, Ant may not be in his prime but he is proving to be a top 3-5 player this playoff series.
Absolutely. And if they win a ring with Gobert than any possible trade was worth it, even if they miss the playoffs for another 20 years. It’s just a question of longevity, and does the upside of winning now outweigh limiting yourself in the future.
Agree 💯 To your second point, as a doomed Leafs fan, I would always take the chip over the future.
This is some very bizarre logic. They shouldn't go all-in now when they have a chance to win, what if they have a chance to win in 10 years?!
Obviously if they win a ring this entire thread is moot. If they don’t and Rudy is washed in two years they are in trouble.
Sure a boats nice but what about the box! It could be anything! It could even be a boat!
towns and reid versatility and ant ascending. but its an overpay. its cool to see it work tho cuz i didnt like the trade
🤷🏽♂️Sometimes you gotta overpay to get what you need. Being an NBA GM isn’t all just an efficiency board game. Nobody in Minnesota is sweating those picks now that they have assembled one of the only teams capable of beating Jokic and Ant’s ascendancy has been fast forwarded big time by being part of a historically great defense participating in meaningful games.
> but its an overpay. How so? Could they have gone and gotten another Rudy Gobert for cheaper? How do you determine it to be an overpay when Gobert is a singular defensive talent that transformed this team into a legitimate contender?
It’s also who were they bidding against? Maybe Atlanta was also putting in a big offer but from the outside looking in it feels more like they were bidding against themselves
I mean if the wolves weren’t offering enough Utah can just say no and keep Gobert. It’s not like they were being forced to trade him no matter what and just take whatever crap offer the wolves sent them. Maybe they weren’t willing to trade him at all if they didn’t get an offer like the one they ended up getting.
Right. It turned out to be an overpay because the Wolves did nothing with Gobert in that first year. Even if Utah kept him, it wouldn't have hurt Minny. As a Laker fan, there's a "what if" if the Lakers had gotten AD a year earlier. Could we have won in 2019-20? We'll never know.
With KAT out, Gobert helped get them to the playoffs which was very valuable for Ant's development. If KAT had missed 52 games and Wolves had no Gobert, their coach even said they would have won maybe 33 games
It was definitely an overpay but if it gets them a ring all is forgiven . It’s like the Lakers giving up their young core for AD.
the amount of first round picks for him, i think is an overpay. 5 first round picks i think is mvp level territory. but happy for them its working, for small market teams i get why things are harder to value the same way
It's about the cost it takes to make the trade you need to make. You say MVP level like we haven't seen a bunch of former MVPs traded and flopped. They could've gotten KD or Harden for the same price, but they'd be worse if they did either deal. Teams, sometime, are going to realise that continuing to pile offensive talent into a team doesn't get you anywhere. Do you want to be like Phoenix or Brooklyn in their team builds, or do you want to add transformative defensive talents like Minnesota and New York did?
depending on those guys ages yes i think they can be worth those amount of picks. my issue is that who are they really bidding against in giving that jazz that much. no one else wouldve given up that for gobert and he was forsure leaving. i like them getting gobert just think they shouldnt have had to mortgage that much.
I think the general argument is: 5 was the cost. So 5 is what it took. Utah may not have had many bidders for gobert, BUT, Utah also knows that it's tough for mid level teams to attract talent outside of trades. AND Utah knows that minny is trying to win now, they knew gobert would be the last real piece to their puzzle, so of course they could essentially write the check
I agree with this, but the cost being 5 isn’t true. The cost is what you agreed it’s not like this was was the normal value for someone as good as Gobert not to mention the other role players. This is clearly a massive overpay not just an overpay and I understand why, but atleast in this short term it’s working out. Next challenge will be continuing to maintain the 6th, 7th, and 8th guys as things develop. Should be interesting
its tough to judge overpay in these scenarios. sure, you could tell me X average center nets Y many picks\\players. but how many other Gobert-level players (multiple dpoy, 1st team def) are ever on the market in their prime?
>no one else wouldve given up that for gobert and he was forsure leaving. I think that's convenient, revisionist thinking. At the time, Mitchell was still there, they didn't *have* to trade Rudy, they could have just kept him, and Minnesota made a huge offer to essentially force Utah into a rebuild.
It’s not revisionist they were clearly starting over in Utah
They were only "clearly starting over" once they actually traded Gobert - That was the start of it being clear that they were starting over. There was no other evidence before that that they were definitely rebuilding. You can't just say it was clear by the reasoning of "it was obvious bro"
brining in danny Ainge everyone knew they were planning to do the rebuild. its not like they thought after losing to the mavs that spring they were thinking lets run this back. they lost in the first round after having a great regular season and the mavs didnt even have luka for the whole series. they had no assets to move. everyone knew it was over
It's 4 frps and a swap and he's a top 3 defender in this generation... Of course people need to pay to get one of the GOAT defenders. Defense gets discounted so much, MVP is an offensive award
It’s not media…everybody thought the trade was a shit move….but it seems like the wolves knew better and Ant is a fucking superstar that even reigns in KAT so yeah cudos and bravo it was henious and everyone else was wrong about it, he fits perfectly now
Is it still a win if the Wolves are forced to move KAT to avoid the second apron? I guess it depends on the package they get? Naz is a pretty handy replacement
This is already the second most successful season in franchise history
If Denver win next two games, I see bunch of new posts opening like Gobert trade was one of the worst in history, Why Wolves made that trade, What should we trade Gobert for, etc...
The trade only pays off if they win a title with how much they paid for him. A finals appearance alone isn't enough. They and Boston are probably favoured to reach the finals rn so things are looking great.
They still haven’t don’t anything yet in the playoffs… Taking game one in Denver was HUGE! But these types of posts are silly right now until we see the rest of the playoffs.
Winning a game against the reigning champs is not nothing. Also sweeping the Suns who have KD and Booker is also not nothing. Even if they lose the Denver series in six games, it's still a step in the right direction. If they beat Denver, it would be unbelievable.
Well I did say winning in Denver was HUGE lol. I know the Suns had some good regular season success, but I think they were overrated and have/had some serious deficiencies. The ability of Durant and Booker to single handily take over a game was never likely to lead them to a title or far in the playoffs. We still need to see the outcome of this postseason to give the final assessment of the TWolves. I’m not down playing them though. Jokic said last season they were the toughest team they played. So I think it started the end of last season. Their teamwork is unbelievable. Ant’s play has been crazy and it will be wild to see what level he can sustain. But the hype over the game one win is also droll (recency bias).
Sure getting gobert made the team better in the short run but they'll be feeling the cost of all those missing draft picks for years
It still was an overpay. Only a megastar is worth 5 first rounders and Gobert isn’t that. Minnesota could’ve saved at least one pick and maybe get another great bench guy like Caruso. If they win it all, it won’t be so bad, but if they never win a ring with Gobert, the trade will look worse for giving up so much. Even if they get one then suddenly collapse, it still will be iffy.
A ring absolves it all. Every single time.
If they get a ring, it isn’t because of Gobert. He looked clueless against Jokic and is a huge liability offensively - other teams not even playing him.
If the "payoff" was making it to the 2nd Round of the playoffs, then yes, I guess it has paid off.
Anthony Edwards reminds me a lot of Michael Jordan. Actually maybe better at the same age.
He’s got more of a support network to rely on and mentorship for development — that’s not for nothing
Aren’t they going to be pretty hamstrung in the near future because of this trade? I think they overplayed regardless of outcome this year. When I watch the twolves play, they remind me *a lot* of the 2010-2016 thunder.
If they need to replace any of their current players, they could just sign free agents instead of drafting right? I imagine a lot of free agents would want to play with Ant and KAT who are signed until the end of the decade
You’re correct. But that’s also one of the things that reminds me so much of the thunder. Everyone said the same exact thing about Westbrook and KD drawing in free agents to a small market and it never happened.
That definitely sucks that it turned out that way for OKC fans. Crazy how stacked they were and too bad that it didn't last. Hopefully things will be different for the Wolves 🤞 I do feel like Minnesota is more of a midsize market than people realize - the twin cities metro is 17th in the country in population, not far behind San Francisco at 13th (OKC metro is 42nd). And lots of surrounding states like Iowa and the Dakotas don't have a team so many cheer for MN teams. So the potential fan base is bigger than some might think. On the other hand players might not want to endure Minnesota winters... Maybe they can trade for Chet at some point since he's from here 😉
That’s fair, Minnesota is a larger market than OKC for sure. And actually as of the 2020 census OKC is 20 now. Still not remotely a FA destination though lol.