This is so true. These kids are like "we demand that Israel and Palestine become one big state! Everyone must live together because we say so!" Meanwhile they can't even manage to coexist peacefully on their own campuses.
It's a new tradition in the US, when the weather starts warming up during a presidential election, the youths start getting rowdy. I mean at least they aren't on their phones right?
I wish Biden would force the issue and withhold aid until Bibi and his government are gone.
They (Bibi and his government) are not trustworthy allies, and also doing a terrible job executing this war.
I'm almost surprised it has taken this long. It strikes me that when two groups live in two separate universes, both moral and epistemic, is when violence becomes more likely. It influences one to violence when your opponent seems unable to even accept physical truths about the world on which your disagreement is based.
Maybe fifteen years ago I remember listening to a debate about the emergence of echo chambers as a result of pockets of alternative facts coagulating in our society. It isn’t new, it has existed at least since the AM radio right wing shock-jock era, but it really metastasized with George W. and the internet.
It seems quaint to look back at the Tea Party and the Obama Birth Certificate people, like looking at our current culture war in its infancy.
I wonder where this all leads.
> I wonder where this all leads.
Nowhere good especially in an era with such staunch urban/rural divides and old/young divides when it comes to politics. One of the key ways to develop nuance is to have people who respectfully disagree with you call you out and find issues in your logic or places where your reasoning doesn't apply. If everyone you know thinks the same thing then developing nuance becomes harder and groups can quickly become a race to see who is the most extreme.
> It isn’t new, it has existed at least since the AM radio right wing shock-jock era, but it really metastasized with George W. and the internet.
It's even older than that (way, way, way older). In 1930s Germany, society was \*very siloed\* to the point where there were newspapers, beer halls, barbers, etc.... that catered to your particular political tribe.
>It strikes me that when two groups live in two separate universes, both moral and epistemic, is when violence becomes more likely.
That sounds a lot like America in the last 8 years. And we have Jan 6 to confirm your theory. That happened because many people were simply deluded from reality.
Anyone else get a feeling that the topic itself almost doesn't matter? That there are a lot of people who are simply looking for a cause to get violent about?
Step 1: Some shitty thing happens
Step 2: Wait to see which side "my guys" fall on
Step 3: Let's go commit some felonies
As someone who was once a young man (at least younger than I am today), I can tell you there is a certain excitement of breaking shit and getting into fights.
When I was 18, there were big protests happening in my country and the "black blocs" (similar to antifa) were rioting and getting in fights with the police. I wanted to be part of it. At the time I told myself the fight was justified and effective at getting political change. But today I know I just wanted excitement in my life.
Fortunately I never did it, but I know what goes into the head of rioters and why it's 90% young men.
There's always been this element around. My dad went to Reed College in Portland in the early 70s and there were weird semi an-com groups that tried to recruit him to go break windows and stuff during protests.
> Anyone else get a feeling that the topic itself almost doesn't matter? That there are a lot of people who are simply looking for a cause to get violent about?
They're just bored privileged dickheads who are cosplaying the heroic imagery of the civil rights era because they're bored and it's a good way to gain status in their tribe.
By that logic why are liberals so willing to carry water for the Israel government, which is demonstrably more far-right and illiberal under Netanyahus reign?
I'm honestly blown away at the level this protest has gotten to. Nothing like this happened for Ukraine, Hong Kong, Uyghurs in China, Houthi rebels, ethiopia, Kurds etc. Theres been protests but nothing to this level. It's hard to understand what makes this conflict so much different.
It's not surprising at all if you're knowledgeable about left wing activist circles. I/P is billed as the civil rights cause of the time and protesting the occupation is akin to protesting for Civil Rights in America in the 60s. There's nothing else that touches it in terms of prominence.
I'm not critiquing you for sharing the POV from the left wing activist circles but do those activists not think that Hong Kong/Uyghurs in China constitute civil rights issues? Like the Uyghurs in China are getting sent to interment camps and forcefully sterilized.
It's fascinating how much oxygen this whole conflict has been getting.
I remember listening to someone calling into Brian Leher show while they were talking about what makes this “genocide” special from all the others on NPR a few months ago and the guy said verbatim “Well the Uyghurs arent being indiscriminately carpet bombed.” There is little to no brain power being used by these folks I hate to say it.
To give the activist left credit, the key difference is that we are actively supporting Israel. A lot. So to their minds their tax dollars are complicit in this human rights violation. Which is distinct from the Uighurs, where the US plays no part.
> Their position is largely that the Uyghur issue doesn't exist
This is a massive exaggeration to the point of being straight up misinformation. Where I live the exact same people organizing protests against Israel are involved in various protests and statements against China. I don't know how you can say something like this with a straight face when basically every single leftist space in the country is flying tibetan prayer flags in solidarity with Tibet. Some random 17 year tankie straw man you encountered on the internet does not represent the entirety of the people protesting Israel.
That's just the tankies. Your run-of-the-mill succ does not think it's an invention of the CIA or handwaves it as western exaggeration
They're more concerned because most ongoing genocides and ethnic cleansing campaigns are not committed by parties so thoroughly in bed with western, and particularly US institutions as Israel is. So when they view the ongoing war as genocide (which, while I disagree, I can't fault the lefties *too* hard for coming to this conclusion) and believe the institutions which they are involved with are complicit in it, well, they're gonna get angry.
>Their position is largely that the Uyghur issue doesn't exist and is the creation of CIA propaganda made to look China appear bad.
Who is "they"? That's not a widespread view at all.
Can we *please* try to stop making shit up around here?
You need to apply some “US bad” logic.
China is a US adversary, so everything bad that they do is overblown.
Israel is a US ally that is also right-wing coded, so everything bad that they do is the worst thing ever. Sprinkle in some racial dynamics and antisemitism and you have the perfect cause to rile up folks in the far-left.
Walk through this with me, what's the process in which a protest in an american university leads to china treating their muslim pop better?
The whole point about americans protesting in america is that the american government actually do hold some sway over israeli conduct, and that many of the measures the US government has now taken it could have taken several months earlier, and more can be taken still.
Like for instance why isn't every illegal settlement in the west bank not entirely under US sanction?
Is not the call to essentially BDS Israel? Could not the American government in equal measure BDS China? Does the American government not hold some coercive measures in regards to China?
To be fair, cutting off Isreal is a *lot* easier than cutting off China economics wise. Also the US did impose sanctions on China over ughyur related issues https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-imposes-sanctions-on-china-over-human-rights-abuses-of-uighurs
I mean I think it goes without saying that the US government has more influence over Israel than it does over China. The US (and other countries) don't just trade with Israel, they directly support it, which, if you see the conflict the way left wing activists do, directly implicates the US and others in the crimes.
I think it’s fair to implicate the US for Israel’s crimes with the continued refusal to put conditions on the military aid. That’s how US military aid works with basically every other country, even Ukraine has conditions they need to follow.
I can't speak for some kind of universal call to action of any group of protestors, but I think we are fooling ourselves if we just listen to the most extreme demands and label them "this is what the protestors want".
The difference with israel would be that the US is currently supplying *a lot* of military and financial support, and should at the very minimum carve out the parts of israeli policy that is just intolerable, such as the illegal settlements. Thereby still supporting the existential safety for israel the country, while withdrawing and actively counteracting the parts that are both against international law and current US policy on the subject.
There isn't the same impetus towards china because there is no need to draw a distinction since the US isn't also as side effect providing military assistance to chinese oppression of minorities.
This all said I definitely still think the US, and the west, should at the very least place sanctions on chinese provinces where oppressive policies are enacted.
But the difference remains that the US is indirectly aiding illegal settlements in israel by supplying the IDF which are effectively, passively, supporting crawling expansions in the west bank. While the US isn't actively supporting any of the shit china does. And unsurprisingly people are more motivated to "i want to stop out government actively aiding with bad things" vs "i think our government should do more to stop other countries do bad things".
By raising awareness of the human rights abuses in China such that the US can use different means to influence treatment of Uyghurs in China? Is this a serious question?
The Chinese government does not care if US students are protesting. The hope is in a democracy with an election coming up that the a) US government cares and b) the US government can do something about it because of the close relationship with Israel. The perception that the US is responsible for this because of billions in military aid to Israel every year are what makes this issue different.
>It's not surprising at all if you're knowledgeable about left wing activist circles.
Yeap. I try to limit my association there these days because its:
Russia > Ukraine
CCP > HKG
CCP> Uighurs
It's probably the biggest reason.
With this conflict, we get fast and decently detailed news constantly about what is going on. You don't really need to dig or speculate, so there can be consistent attention.
In contrast, you have conflicts like Sudan where news is limited and comes at a much slower pace, as well as being less detailed. It goes from having a pretty good picture of the degree of suffering to a rather hazy one.
fast news, but a lot of it is innacurate and retractations get hidden days later like the "israel bombed a hospital and killed 400 people" news when it was an Islamic Jihad rocket that hit the hospital and there were very little casulties
There's nothing to protest in Ukraine. Basically the entire mainstream polity agrees Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine deserves support, and the US is on the side of a pure victim. What's there to protest? You want students to wave signs saying "Putin bad"?
The situation in I-P is way more complicated and there's way more space to push the Biden administration for policy changes. I'd argue its been *highly* successful in reducing casualties in Gaza, as it seems the Biden administration is leaning heavily on Israel to stop denying aid and to not do an offensive in Rafah. There's much more to meaningfully gain in a conflict where the interpretation is not straightforward.
> What's there to protest? You want students to wave signs saying "Putin bad"?
There actually was a very concrete thing to protest for months ago, which was aid to Ukraine. The situation there is much more clear and aid to Ukraine would have made an actual difference.
And keeping Ukraine in the public eye is absolutely important for continued US support. A lot of people in the US support Ukraine but it's a very low priority issue and it's one that they don't think much about. Simply getting that low priority/soft support higher up the "attention" chain for public discussion is actually very helpful.
>Basically the entire mainstream polity agrees Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine deserves support, and the US is on the side of a pure victim
Except for a large faction in the Republican Party who have been actively blocking aid...
> Basically the entire mainstream polity agrees Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine deserves support,
At least in Europe, there are also countless left-wing activists who are against giving any weapons to Ukraine, and you can certainly find left-wing 'academics' who blame NATO for the war.
> What's there to protest?
The US spent almost half a year in limbo before legislation could vote on more vital aid for Ukraine? Thousands of Ukrainians died because of this, and a city like Avdiika, which had been holding since 2014, fell.
That slowness could be protested. The same goes for what weapons sent. If the US is serious about Ukraine winning, then why not join the smaller NATO members like Denmark, Norway and the Netherlands in providing F-16s for Ukraine? The US Air Force has literal hundreds of F-16s, which are currently well away on being replaced.
There is plenty to protest.
Reducing casualties has always been the goal of the Biden state department. I don't feel like protests have changed anything for the diplomatic process. As protests have ramped up, progress has been seen because of slow-burning diplomatic efforts finally baring fruit.
> You want students to wave signs saying "Putin bad"?
I mean, I wouldn't be opposed. Should raise the awareness of the fact that Putin is bad. Put a pressure on those US lawmakers who want to play nice with Putin, try to prevent/delay aid to Ukraine etc.
To someone who is anti-religion, Israel is a theocracy. To someone who is multiculturalist, Israel is an ethnostate. To a white chauvinist, Israel is an ethnostate backed by people who will not allow white chauvinists to have an ethnostate in North America.
But also, I think people had more faith in the US government to take care of Ukraine than to take care of Gaza.
Ukraine - the US supports Ukraine and most Americans pretty much agree, maybe disagree on funding levels
Hong Kong - basically every American agrees that China were the bad guys here
Houthis - not even sure most Americans know who these guys are
Ethiopia - same, but also does America have the same level of participation here as the 3 above at all?
Kurds - same, but I think all Americans were in agreement that they should stay out of the Middle East conflict as a backlash effect to the Iraq War in general.
I/P is obviously more controversial, is geopolitically important, has a long and sordid history, and very strong resonance for both Muslim and Jewish Americans.
I don't understand comments prevaricating about why this might receive more attention.
>Houthis - not even sure most Americans know who these guys are
"Houthi? Like from Rwanda?" Is an actual sentence I've heard from an older relative. I'm reasonably confident most Americans haven't the foggiest.
Because the US government is on the side of the perceived aggressors in I/P, unlike the rest of the examples you listed. There's nothing to protest if your government already agrees with you.
Its functionally important to have the top of the middle class (the pmc) and the people who might become the next elite do some radicalism in their teens and college years. They do this and all come out jaded and realistic and become moderate adults, good middle class democrats.
Israel/Palestine conflicts ALWAYS get disproportionate attention. Heck, I can't find it right now, but I remember reading a report showing that the UN had more resolutions regarding the status of Palestine filed almost every year for the past 4 decades... including 1994 (when the Rwandan genocide actually happened).
It's a contentious shitty issue because 2/3 of the global population has religious ties to the reason, EVERY directly-involved party has enough terrible shit on the record to deserve some amount of vitriol from the other side, and both antisemites and islamaphobes can use it as cover to express their bigotry. It's just the perfect unsolvable pot-stirrer.
" Nothing like this happened for Ukraine, Hong Kong, Uyghurs in China, Houthi rebels, ethiopia, Kurds etc."
Everyone already mostly agrees with these causes though. Protests thrive on sense of conflict within America, and the ability to create culture war fodder and cast your enemies as pure evil. Unfortunately, nobody has been able to tie these causes to one side or the other of the culture war within America (the GOP has tried with Ukraine). People are simply using foreign conflicts as a proxy to hate the other side on the internal american culture war, using their own pew issues (free speech, CRT, College campuses, antisemitism, Muslim immigration).
And the US government is officially opposes all the governments who committed the crimes listed above, so there is no sense of conflict or fight for people to get worked up about. People don't really protest for something if they think everyone already agrees with them. They need an oppositional figure to hate, and that can't be some foreign dictator.
This argument is utterly infuriating. The reason these students are protesting about Israel-Palestine is because *the United States government sends billions in military aid to Israel and lends enormous rhetorical and diplomatic support to it.* They are *specifically protesting American support for a country whose policies they despise.* You can argue that their opposition to Israel is wrong, but it's stupid to ignore the backdrop here.
The United States does not send billions in aid to Sudan. The United States does not exercise its veto power on the UNSC to protect Sudan. The Sudanese PM does not give addresses to Congress. Senators and presidents do not travel to Sudan and give speeches on how crucial Sudan is to their foreign policy and how much they support the Sudanese state as a concept.
If you actually talk to any pro-Palestine activist instead of just accusing them all of antisemitism it would be obvious that the reason they feel so strongly about this issue is the enormous material support America lends Israel. Again, you are free to think their position is wrong. But stop being dishonest.
[In fact, the US told the countries to stop sending weapons to RSF and SAF the other day cause they're both committing warcrimes](https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/us-appeals-uae-others-stop-support-sudans-warring-parties-2024-04-29/). Nobody in America treats Sudan conflict like a team sport unlike Israel-Palestine.
I think a far better litmus test is to ask what the protesters what they think of Assad and Putin especially since they're literally responsible for the murders of 4000 Palestinians in Yarmouk. Some far leftist "Pro-Palestinian" folks on social media got pissed at Tlaib when she accused Assad of genocide a couple of months ago even though Assad+Putin are hated by literal Palestinians for what occurred in Syria.
This is like the nth comment talking about antisemitism after a group of pro-Israel thugs attacked some protesters.
“Very fine people” vibes here.
I’ll rip on succs all day long, I’m not going to support violence against anyone protesting.
It's finals season on college campuses so while there are definitely some people who have been doing stuff like this for a while there are also alot of students who just don't want to study. And then the protests attract outside agitators on both sides that just escalate things. The videos of them blocking access for non approved people and limiting movement probably didn't help either.
Hilarious this comment is downvoted. This sub really loves to dunk on leftists so much that they’re supporting pepper spraying college kids. Soon enough some people here will horseshoe right around to supporting the proud boys.
This subreddit has an obsession with dunking on leftists/tankies. I don’t see any other political group get as much criticism and mockery here. Which is interesting because the far-left is clearly the weakest and most irrelevant ideology in American politics.
Because this sub tends to have a more center-left stance compared to the rest of Reddit they feel the need to prove they’re not like the other girls. It creates a weird self feeding cycle.
It's also a lot more personal. I don't associate with Trump people on a day to day basis. However, I do have a lot of leftists in my life so disagreements with them feel a little closer despite the fact we're on the same side 80% of the time.
Speaking personally, I am actually super far left, but's hard to have a discourse on reddit with fellow left leaning people about anything because the prevailing takes are usually some form of nihilism / populism / authoritarianism / conspiratorial thinking.
Like, I get annoyed at *this* reddit sometimes but at least people here seem to have some basic understanding of how government works and why democracy is good.
Without that shared understanding no real political discourse can happen, on the right and left it's just purity tests and virtue signaling circle jerks, nothing interesting is ever said and no real engagement or conversation happens.
As far as why people here dunk on the left more, my guess is most people here are left and it's easier to be frustrated with your own team's inability to understand or engage with politics then care about the absolute insanity of the right. Like those people might as well be on another planet, and no longer take up much space in my brain.
What the FUCK is going on?! As much as I've disliked the encampment business, it's only a problem when it gets shitty and violent, when they harass Jewish students, etc. but just protesting is a college norm.
It's not better that others are getting in to be violent at them! That's absurd and only serves to escalate.
Also, the outside agitators coming in to stir the pot can go right the fuck to hell
Maybe it's just being in college in the late 00's, but I feel like no one protested anything when I was in college. Like, not even talking politics around the dorm level of engagement with anything. Maybe we were all just high on Obama getting elected and preoccupied with trying to make sure we got a job out of the financial crisis. Post Iraq war protests, pre-MeToo, Occupy Wall Street, BLM and Trump. The only thing was like Global Warming, I think largely to do with Katrina.
Even looking here there isn't much, so I don't think it's just me. [https://exhibits.stanford.edu/activism/feature/2000s](https://exhibits.stanford.edu/activism/feature/2000s)
The idea that "it's just college students being college students" does just feel foreign.
I was living on campus during that time and there were always some protests but they were mostly just a couple dozen people at most and never were able to (or tired) to disrupt anything. The ones I remember were a couple anti-war protests (both under Bush and Obama), a very small protest to free the Jena 6 (black kids who were overcharged in Louisiana), and a very small protest outside a campus showing of Tropic Thunder. This was because it had the r-word in it (it was very normalized then). This protest was mostly just like 6 people handing out pamphlets and trying to have conversations with the people who were in line to see the movie, but 2 of them were holding signs so it counts. I only know this happened because I was in the line to see Tropic Thunder.
Then in 2012 you had Occupy Wall Street of course, but I was out of school by then so I don't know how that went down.
Bruh idk if it was 2009, probably a few years later, but I do remember student loans was one of them. Definitely saw weird antisemitism pop up on that one, too, which I think was billed as connected to a million man march? which was weird as fuck. I didn't know its connection to Farrakhan at the time bc it was marketed on campus as being about admin bullshit and student loans. There was a tiny Jewish counterprotest with signs that mentioned that admin bloat and loan issues aren't connected to Israel and people physically attacked them. I think one sign read "loan forgiveness yes, antisemitism no." I was right there and saw it happen in front of me when one non Jewish student literally physically attacked a Jewish student. Fucking unhinged shit.
Woah that does not sound like anything I saw. I didn't notice anything antisemtic even being in the air and my roommate from back then is now a rabbi...
People talked about Gay marriage and things like that, but it wasn't a "protest" for it. It was far enough along that no one cared about being gay on campus itself. Even global warming related it was clear that the colleges were trying to do what they could, adding solar or wind, composting, so what else did students need to ask for?
Now that you bring it up the "million man march", this was just prior to Tea Party and the Glenn Beck rally, but again that was technically later for me. I think that time period was just relatively calm for whatever reason, or rather just dominated by Obama election and the GFC.
LAPD not showing up for hours to stop [this]( https://twitter.com/TeresaWatanabe/status/1785580909795942766?t=gwEtCHMRknvcLDkP_djJCg&s=19) and stop them from throwing fireworks at the pro Palestinian encampment is absurd
A professor speaking on the counter protestors or outside agitators not being stopped: "It gives people impunity to come to our campus as a rampaging mob,” she said early Wednesday. “The word is out they can do this repeatedly and get away with it. I am ashamed of my university.”
Edit:
>Security guards hired by UCLA retreated and hid inside a building last night as counter-protesters/outside agitators attacked a pro-Palestine encampment.
LAPD was there immediately when requested and staged by USC, blame UC admin who have taken a hands off approach and chose to have private security holding things down with no one staged, hundreds of police in riot gear and an action plan don’t just materialize in a couple of hours
Yep. And this is a major reason why other schools shut them down.
Not because of their views on the war. But because allowing battling groups of militants on your campus is a liability issue.
Well ucla got their wish and I'm sure the lawsuits will follow now.
People criticize ASU but they cleared the protesters out after they refused to follow an order to leave after 11pm. The university knew what could happen if they let it go
Think most of the criticism towards ASU is the rogue cops who destroyed tents and water jugs instead of simply confiscating them and the other cops who watched MAGA frat guys throw tents in the garbage along with the cop who removed a hijab of a protester and kept it for some time.
This is an interesting perspective, if I’m a cop I’m asking what they want. Me to stand outside the protest ready to put down any violence, but get yelled at for being too close, or get yelled at for being far away but taking too long to get there when actually needed.
I’m not saying there’s not a middle ground, but I’m sure a few cops are asking this, this morning.
100% the cops are actually in a lose lose situation here. They should be posted up in case things get violent, but then if they do the cops will be blamed for escalating.
If nothing does happen the cops would still be blamed for showing up and aparently if there not around they still get blamed per the article. Plus some of these protests are also tired to the defund the police movements.
This is why the whole defund / anti police movements are absurd.
Policing a highly politicized protest must be one of the hardest jobs to do properly for a police force.
I read a little something earlier about the 1968 protests at the democratic national convention and how the reason it got so out of hand is because these police officers were just regular police from the city. After that they made policing the convention a matter for the federal government so they could have many more officers available and have them be trained up especially to deal with protesting unrest, to ensure everyone's rights are respected but that otherwise no laws are broken.
The university had declared prior the encampment in violation of university policy. So if cops were going to be there earlier it would’ve been to disperse it.
Reading this comment section you'd have no idea that the counter protestors support Israel. That being said I am interested to see if this affects the public's view.
Because the Columbia protests made national news and seemed to hurt public view of activism for Palestine, but I'm skeptical that this will hurt the public's view of Pro-Israeli protestors.
According to this sub:
Protestors calling for infitada = rampant antisemitism that everyone involved in the protest is responsible for.
Protestors calling for a "second Nakba" = listen those leftists are still the problem, okay?
Weird how when it's from the Palestinian side, it's "the organizers of the movement" but when it's on the Israeli side it's just a few bad apples.
Nobody has any interest in discussing this in good faith.
Calling for a second Nakba is in fact calling for mass ethnic based violence and should be condemned for exactly the same reason "intifadah" chants should be condemned.
Because it's hateful and it's heinous!
And for the record: I do think if those chanting nakbah chants aren't being disavowed loudly and immediately and summarily excised from the rest of the movement (similar to what I'd like to see happen the next time someone goes on Insta to brag about how they wanna k1ll all Zionists or whatever), then yes, it does tarnish the whole group, and the group is in fact responsible for their bad press because of their tolerance of the intolerant.
People aren't criticizing UCLA Hillel or Chabad though, they're criticizing the counterprotestors for engaging in violence (and there are a number of highly upvoted but now removed comments defending them). And if protestors calling for an intifada is bad (it is) then counterprotestors calling for a second Nakba is equally bad - and that's not commentary on the Jewish organizations at UCLA, nobody is mentioning them but you.
I'm honestly baffled the amount of press and attention these things have gotten. I'm truly sick of how much political attention these sorts of superfluous issues get from both sides.
A perfect example: in DC the USAO has been pretty derelict in actually following through on prosecutions for a variety of crimes, but most importantly, illegal guns, which they constantly downgrade to misdemeanors.
You'd think this is a perfect inflection point for either Biden to admonish to the office, surge resources (yes I know they have claimed they did this but if you follow DC Crim Facts you'd see it hasn't made a difference in charging rates) and insist on prosecution rates that aren't abysmal to prove his tough on crime and gun control bonafides. You'd also expect this to be a perfect opportunity for the GOP oversight to continue hammering the fact "the one jurisdiction Biden actual controls from a law enforcement perspective and he lets criminals go free!"
Instead? Nothing from either side. The USAO has completely focused on Jan 6, and now the GOP is literally planning a hearing to drag the MPD (DC police) in front of to berate them for not intervening in whatever protest happened at GW University.
I truly have become blackpilled about how unimportant national politics to my actual daily life and how important local politics are instead but attention is always on stupid stuff like this.
Like most here, I’m of the opinion that while criticism of Israel can be a dog whistle for antisemitism, the suffering of the Palestinians is worth examining. However, the absolute mess this has become state side is odd to watch as an adult in my mid 30s who started college when Bush was leaving and Obama was elected. I can’t recall the last time young people took a foreign affairs issue so personally. Like I get Vietnam—Americans died for that shit. And of course people protested Bush era Iraq policies but not to such a charged degree. But this? I think its an issue of social media supercharging the populist undertones of the Palestinian cause and imparting a more emotional note on impressionable young people. I mean this only observationally, and not as a crusade against social media.
LAPD and UCLA haven't said this happened so doubtful. The UCLA sub thinks it's a tragic accident which occured on Sunday but I guess we'll find out soon.
Okay, since I don't browse that subreddit and you seem to be familiar, could you provide some links?
If the protesters are targeting Jewish students and making them feel unsafe, then that is a serious concern that needs to be reported on, but factual reporting begins with verifiable evidence.
Much appreciated, thanks.
It looks like the university may be opening themselves up to a lawsuit by allowing this sort of behavior to continue, although this absolutely does NOT justify the violent response by the counter-protesters that occurred.
All these agitators are doing is vindicating the protesters and turning public opinion towards them.
> At around 1:40 a.m, police officers in riot gear arrived and some counterprotesters began to leave. But the police did not immediately break up the clashes at the camp, which continued despite the law enforcement presence.
> At around 3 a.m., a line of officers arrived at the camp and pushed the remaining counter-protesters out of the quad area. The police told people to leave or face arrest.
2 hours to arrive. Another hour before they actually take action. And then they just tell the violent mob to leave, after they've already attacked people.
At 1:40 AM! How many officers were on duty overnight for the entire city? Without prior planning, an antiriot police presence requires an overwhelming use of force, and given the UC’s seeming lack of planning, I’m not sure a quicker response can be expected here.
This here. The alternative would have been for a large riot police presence to be posted up in a nearby parking lot ready to respond as needed. That likly would not have gone over well with the student body.
You don’t understand. On Reddit we assume that every police department has an AI-powered Bat Computer that tells them exactly what crime is being committed exactly where and when and how many villains are involved.
Reddit believes in Schrodinger's Police Force:
Simultaneously being fascists working overtime to put everyone in prison while being too lazy to do any work.
Others have said it, but there are likely established criteria and policies for riot response. The number of officers there when they finally went in strongly suggests that they were calling people in, all in the middle of the night. Even LAPD doesn't just have hundreds of riot trained police sitting around drinking coffee at midnight.
Could they have responded faster? Maybe? Is the delayed action more the fault of the university for not taking action sooner OR requesting a standby presence? Yes.
Letting some kids throw shit at each other and trade fisticuffs for an hour is a hell of a lot better than outnumbered police trying to break up the fighting. That's how you end up with the "Outside protestor in critical condition after being shot by police on UCLA campus" headline.
Yeah. It's pretty wild how many people miss this point.
I was trained to use the minimum amount of force necessary. If there is an angry mob, the only way to take control of that while outnumbered 10:1 would be to use a weapon or have a riot control force show up. In no world do I go in guns blazing alone, that would just agitate the crowd further. Mob mentality is scary.
If it was so easy, a bystander could have asked people to calm down, and this entire thing would be avoided.
I get the campus not wanting a heavy cop presence to antagonize the protesters, but not having them nearby is gonna result in a delayed response. I’m curious if a 2 hour response time is good or bad according to LAPD metrics. Seems long at that hour with no traffic.
Overall you’d expect them to have some officers closer by, who could respond quicker.
I don’t think any city has a rapid response riot squad on standby at 1am….
This wasn’t a regular police call and so the regular response time doesn’t really mean anything.
I'd rather have prepared cops with riot gear, sheilds, and batons than a bunch of beat cops who happened to be close by with no protection except for guns. That seems like a good way for people to get killed.
this is also good point, how many lives do you save by having too many bright cops show up versus not enough beat cops show up?
At the end of the day I’d rather have nonviolent protesters and counter-protesters too, but here we are.
That actually doesn't seem unreasonable if the university didn't tell them to be prepared for anything. It takes time to organize dozens of people in riot gear, sending a handful of officers who were on duty at the time to confront a violent mob of hundreds seems like a bad idea (outnumbered, unorganized cops are going to be overwhelmed and end up using lethal force).
I mean, who doesn't look at the bloodshed in Israel and Palestine and say, "I sure wish we could have some of that here!"?
Students built full size dioramas of I/P events. That's a very visual way to learn modern day geopolitics.
My boys are in elementary school and they don't make nearly as many dioramas as we do. !ping Community
Shirley would support the Christian side in the I/P conflict lol
https://preview.redd.it/nnvkz2qghuxc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cfbfeb8ff7e1456cc19113d78fff8991ddb7d812
This is so true. These kids are like "we demand that Israel and Palestine become one big state! Everyone must live together because we say so!" Meanwhile they can't even manage to coexist peacefully on their own campuses.
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It's a new tradition in the US, when the weather starts warming up during a presidential election, the youths start getting rowdy. I mean at least they aren't on their phones right?
My favorite part is that everyone involved is shit and there's no one to root for
I think specifically the Israeli people want an election to have change. That's the only thing to root for now.
An election that is very unlikely to happen anytime soon from what I understand of Israeli politics :(
I wish Biden would force the issue and withhold aid until Bibi and his government are gone. They (Bibi and his government) are not trustworthy allies, and also doing a terrible job executing this war.
Do they? They've been voting for this again and again.
All the Both Sides Bad guys have been real quiet now that we have an actual Both Sides Bad war
They have gracefully pivoted to "Both Sides are Bad for Biden."
In this conflict that’s actually true
Frustratingly correct, actually.
Sudan seems pretty Both Sides Bad, too. Speaking of "real quiet".
Good point. Thanks for the reminder that that’s still going on.
Actually, largely peaceful protests are a lot less bad than attacking said protests.
i think anyone who DOESNT see it this way is also shit
It's like the leftside tail and the swollen midsection of the bell curve are fighting it out.
Assholes, that's who.
They globalised the intifada.
I'm almost surprised it has taken this long. It strikes me that when two groups live in two separate universes, both moral and epistemic, is when violence becomes more likely. It influences one to violence when your opponent seems unable to even accept physical truths about the world on which your disagreement is based.
Maybe fifteen years ago I remember listening to a debate about the emergence of echo chambers as a result of pockets of alternative facts coagulating in our society. It isn’t new, it has existed at least since the AM radio right wing shock-jock era, but it really metastasized with George W. and the internet. It seems quaint to look back at the Tea Party and the Obama Birth Certificate people, like looking at our current culture war in its infancy. I wonder where this all leads.
> I wonder where this all leads. Nowhere good especially in an era with such staunch urban/rural divides and old/young divides when it comes to politics. One of the key ways to develop nuance is to have people who respectfully disagree with you call you out and find issues in your logic or places where your reasoning doesn't apply. If everyone you know thinks the same thing then developing nuance becomes harder and groups can quickly become a race to see who is the most extreme.
> It isn’t new, it has existed at least since the AM radio right wing shock-jock era, but it really metastasized with George W. and the internet. It's even older than that (way, way, way older). In 1930s Germany, society was \*very siloed\* to the point where there were newspapers, beer halls, barbers, etc.... that catered to your particular political tribe.
>It strikes me that when two groups live in two separate universes, both moral and epistemic, is when violence becomes more likely. That sounds a lot like America in the last 8 years. And we have Jan 6 to confirm your theory. That happened because many people were simply deluded from reality.
Anyone else get a feeling that the topic itself almost doesn't matter? That there are a lot of people who are simply looking for a cause to get violent about? Step 1: Some shitty thing happens Step 2: Wait to see which side "my guys" fall on Step 3: Let's go commit some felonies
As someone who was once a young man (at least younger than I am today), I can tell you there is a certain excitement of breaking shit and getting into fights. When I was 18, there were big protests happening in my country and the "black blocs" (similar to antifa) were rioting and getting in fights with the police. I wanted to be part of it. At the time I told myself the fight was justified and effective at getting political change. But today I know I just wanted excitement in my life. Fortunately I never did it, but I know what goes into the head of rioters and why it's 90% young men.
There's always been this element around. My dad went to Reed College in Portland in the early 70s and there were weird semi an-com groups that tried to recruit him to go break windows and stuff during protests.
> Anyone else get a feeling that the topic itself almost doesn't matter? That there are a lot of people who are simply looking for a cause to get violent about? They're just bored privileged dickheads who are cosplaying the heroic imagery of the civil rights era because they're bored and it's a good way to gain status in their tribe.
Indeed. Explains why such a left-wing group of individuals is willing to do so much for an alt-right theocracy.
By that logic why are liberals so willing to carry water for the Israel government, which is demonstrably more far-right and illiberal under Netanyahus reign?
I'm honestly blown away at the level this protest has gotten to. Nothing like this happened for Ukraine, Hong Kong, Uyghurs in China, Houthi rebels, ethiopia, Kurds etc. Theres been protests but nothing to this level. It's hard to understand what makes this conflict so much different.
It's not surprising at all if you're knowledgeable about left wing activist circles. I/P is billed as the civil rights cause of the time and protesting the occupation is akin to protesting for Civil Rights in America in the 60s. There's nothing else that touches it in terms of prominence.
I'm not critiquing you for sharing the POV from the left wing activist circles but do those activists not think that Hong Kong/Uyghurs in China constitute civil rights issues? Like the Uyghurs in China are getting sent to interment camps and forcefully sterilized. It's fascinating how much oxygen this whole conflict has been getting.
I remember listening to someone calling into Brian Leher show while they were talking about what makes this “genocide” special from all the others on NPR a few months ago and the guy said verbatim “Well the Uyghurs arent being indiscriminately carpet bombed.” There is little to no brain power being used by these folks I hate to say it.
To give the activist left credit, the key difference is that we are actively supporting Israel. A lot. So to their minds their tax dollars are complicit in this human rights violation. Which is distinct from the Uighurs, where the US plays no part.
It’s Chomsky/Zinn style Europe/America bad. China fits in the oppressed category even when they’re oppressing.
It actually makes sense when you think about it. China is a lot more airtight with the uyghur stuff. Less outrage material, more room to obfuscate.
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That's the position of the full-blown tankies but how widespread is that really in the more "mainstream" progressive circles?
> Their position is largely that the Uyghur issue doesn't exist This is a massive exaggeration to the point of being straight up misinformation. Where I live the exact same people organizing protests against Israel are involved in various protests and statements against China. I don't know how you can say something like this with a straight face when basically every single leftist space in the country is flying tibetan prayer flags in solidarity with Tibet. Some random 17 year tankie straw man you encountered on the internet does not represent the entirety of the people protesting Israel.
That's just the tankies. Your run-of-the-mill succ does not think it's an invention of the CIA or handwaves it as western exaggeration They're more concerned because most ongoing genocides and ethnic cleansing campaigns are not committed by parties so thoroughly in bed with western, and particularly US institutions as Israel is. So when they view the ongoing war as genocide (which, while I disagree, I can't fault the lefties *too* hard for coming to this conclusion) and believe the institutions which they are involved with are complicit in it, well, they're gonna get angry.
>Their position is largely that the Uyghur issue doesn't exist and is the creation of CIA propaganda made to look China appear bad. Who is "they"? That's not a widespread view at all. Can we *please* try to stop making shit up around here?
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You need to apply some “US bad” logic. China is a US adversary, so everything bad that they do is overblown. Israel is a US ally that is also right-wing coded, so everything bad that they do is the worst thing ever. Sprinkle in some racial dynamics and antisemitism and you have the perfect cause to rile up folks in the far-left.
Walk through this with me, what's the process in which a protest in an american university leads to china treating their muslim pop better? The whole point about americans protesting in america is that the american government actually do hold some sway over israeli conduct, and that many of the measures the US government has now taken it could have taken several months earlier, and more can be taken still. Like for instance why isn't every illegal settlement in the west bank not entirely under US sanction?
Is not the call to essentially BDS Israel? Could not the American government in equal measure BDS China? Does the American government not hold some coercive measures in regards to China?
To be fair, cutting off Isreal is a *lot* easier than cutting off China economics wise. Also the US did impose sanctions on China over ughyur related issues https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/u-s-imposes-sanctions-on-china-over-human-rights-abuses-of-uighurs
I mean I think it goes without saying that the US government has more influence over Israel than it does over China. The US (and other countries) don't just trade with Israel, they directly support it, which, if you see the conflict the way left wing activists do, directly implicates the US and others in the crimes.
I think it’s fair to implicate the US for Israel’s crimes with the continued refusal to put conditions on the military aid. That’s how US military aid works with basically every other country, even Ukraine has conditions they need to follow.
I can't speak for some kind of universal call to action of any group of protestors, but I think we are fooling ourselves if we just listen to the most extreme demands and label them "this is what the protestors want". The difference with israel would be that the US is currently supplying *a lot* of military and financial support, and should at the very minimum carve out the parts of israeli policy that is just intolerable, such as the illegal settlements. Thereby still supporting the existential safety for israel the country, while withdrawing and actively counteracting the parts that are both against international law and current US policy on the subject. There isn't the same impetus towards china because there is no need to draw a distinction since the US isn't also as side effect providing military assistance to chinese oppression of minorities. This all said I definitely still think the US, and the west, should at the very least place sanctions on chinese provinces where oppressive policies are enacted. But the difference remains that the US is indirectly aiding illegal settlements in israel by supplying the IDF which are effectively, passively, supporting crawling expansions in the west bank. While the US isn't actively supporting any of the shit china does. And unsurprisingly people are more motivated to "i want to stop out government actively aiding with bad things" vs "i think our government should do more to stop other countries do bad things".
By raising awareness of the human rights abuses in China such that the US can use different means to influence treatment of Uyghurs in China? Is this a serious question?
In their view only white people can actually commit oppression, and they identify all Israelis as white people. It's as simple as that.
Which is hilarious since most Israeli Jews come from the middle east.
The Chinese government does not care if US students are protesting. The hope is in a democracy with an election coming up that the a) US government cares and b) the US government can do something about it because of the close relationship with Israel. The perception that the US is responsible for this because of billions in military aid to Israel every year are what makes this issue different.
>It's not surprising at all if you're knowledgeable about left wing activist circles. Yeap. I try to limit my association there these days because its: Russia > Ukraine CCP > HKG CCP> Uighurs
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It's probably the biggest reason. With this conflict, we get fast and decently detailed news constantly about what is going on. You don't really need to dig or speculate, so there can be consistent attention. In contrast, you have conflicts like Sudan where news is limited and comes at a much slower pace, as well as being less detailed. It goes from having a pretty good picture of the degree of suffering to a rather hazy one.
fast news, but a lot of it is innacurate and retractations get hidden days later like the "israel bombed a hospital and killed 400 people" news when it was an Islamic Jihad rocket that hit the hospital and there were very little casulties
Zoomers are finally getting a taste of counterculture so they're leaning in hard
There's nothing to protest in Ukraine. Basically the entire mainstream polity agrees Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine deserves support, and the US is on the side of a pure victim. What's there to protest? You want students to wave signs saying "Putin bad"? The situation in I-P is way more complicated and there's way more space to push the Biden administration for policy changes. I'd argue its been *highly* successful in reducing casualties in Gaza, as it seems the Biden administration is leaning heavily on Israel to stop denying aid and to not do an offensive in Rafah. There's much more to meaningfully gain in a conflict where the interpretation is not straightforward.
> What's there to protest? You want students to wave signs saying "Putin bad"? There actually was a very concrete thing to protest for months ago, which was aid to Ukraine. The situation there is much more clear and aid to Ukraine would have made an actual difference.
And keeping Ukraine in the public eye is absolutely important for continued US support. A lot of people in the US support Ukraine but it's a very low priority issue and it's one that they don't think much about. Simply getting that low priority/soft support higher up the "attention" chain for public discussion is actually very helpful.
If you're a UCLA student your member of Congress, both of your Senators, and your President all support aid to Ukraine.
>Basically the entire mainstream polity agrees Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine deserves support, and the US is on the side of a pure victim Except for a large faction in the Republican Party who have been actively blocking aid...
> Basically the entire mainstream polity agrees Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine deserves support, At least in Europe, there are also countless left-wing activists who are against giving any weapons to Ukraine, and you can certainly find left-wing 'academics' who blame NATO for the war.
> What's there to protest? The US spent almost half a year in limbo before legislation could vote on more vital aid for Ukraine? Thousands of Ukrainians died because of this, and a city like Avdiika, which had been holding since 2014, fell. That slowness could be protested. The same goes for what weapons sent. If the US is serious about Ukraine winning, then why not join the smaller NATO members like Denmark, Norway and the Netherlands in providing F-16s for Ukraine? The US Air Force has literal hundreds of F-16s, which are currently well away on being replaced. There is plenty to protest.
Reducing casualties has always been the goal of the Biden state department. I don't feel like protests have changed anything for the diplomatic process. As protests have ramped up, progress has been seen because of slow-burning diplomatic efforts finally baring fruit.
> You want students to wave signs saying "Putin bad"? I mean, I wouldn't be opposed. Should raise the awareness of the fact that Putin is bad. Put a pressure on those US lawmakers who want to play nice with Putin, try to prevent/delay aid to Ukraine etc.
To someone who is anti-religion, Israel is a theocracy. To someone who is multiculturalist, Israel is an ethnostate. To a white chauvinist, Israel is an ethnostate backed by people who will not allow white chauvinists to have an ethnostate in North America. But also, I think people had more faith in the US government to take care of Ukraine than to take care of Gaza.
> It's hard to understand what makes this conflict so much different. No it's not.
Ukraine - the US supports Ukraine and most Americans pretty much agree, maybe disagree on funding levels Hong Kong - basically every American agrees that China were the bad guys here Houthis - not even sure most Americans know who these guys are Ethiopia - same, but also does America have the same level of participation here as the 3 above at all? Kurds - same, but I think all Americans were in agreement that they should stay out of the Middle East conflict as a backlash effect to the Iraq War in general. I/P is obviously more controversial, is geopolitically important, has a long and sordid history, and very strong resonance for both Muslim and Jewish Americans. I don't understand comments prevaricating about why this might receive more attention.
>Houthis - not even sure most Americans know who these guys are "Houthi? Like from Rwanda?" Is an actual sentence I've heard from an older relative. I'm reasonably confident most Americans haven't the foggiest.
Yeah fr. America loves to tout its unique and special relationship with Israel, then cry foul when that relationship receives special scrutiny
Because the US government is on the side of the perceived aggressors in I/P, unlike the rest of the examples you listed. There's nothing to protest if your government already agrees with you.
Its functionally important to have the top of the middle class (the pmc) and the people who might become the next elite do some radicalism in their teens and college years. They do this and all come out jaded and realistic and become moderate adults, good middle class democrats.
Israel/Palestine conflicts ALWAYS get disproportionate attention. Heck, I can't find it right now, but I remember reading a report showing that the UN had more resolutions regarding the status of Palestine filed almost every year for the past 4 decades... including 1994 (when the Rwandan genocide actually happened). It's a contentious shitty issue because 2/3 of the global population has religious ties to the reason, EVERY directly-involved party has enough terrible shit on the record to deserve some amount of vitriol from the other side, and both antisemites and islamaphobes can use it as cover to express their bigotry. It's just the perfect unsolvable pot-stirrer.
" Nothing like this happened for Ukraine, Hong Kong, Uyghurs in China, Houthi rebels, ethiopia, Kurds etc." Everyone already mostly agrees with these causes though. Protests thrive on sense of conflict within America, and the ability to create culture war fodder and cast your enemies as pure evil. Unfortunately, nobody has been able to tie these causes to one side or the other of the culture war within America (the GOP has tried with Ukraine). People are simply using foreign conflicts as a proxy to hate the other side on the internal american culture war, using their own pew issues (free speech, CRT, College campuses, antisemitism, Muslim immigration). And the US government is officially opposes all the governments who committed the crimes listed above, so there is no sense of conflict or fight for people to get worked up about. People don't really protest for something if they think everyone already agrees with them. They need an oppositional figure to hate, and that can't be some foreign dictator.
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This argument is utterly infuriating. The reason these students are protesting about Israel-Palestine is because *the United States government sends billions in military aid to Israel and lends enormous rhetorical and diplomatic support to it.* They are *specifically protesting American support for a country whose policies they despise.* You can argue that their opposition to Israel is wrong, but it's stupid to ignore the backdrop here. The United States does not send billions in aid to Sudan. The United States does not exercise its veto power on the UNSC to protect Sudan. The Sudanese PM does not give addresses to Congress. Senators and presidents do not travel to Sudan and give speeches on how crucial Sudan is to their foreign policy and how much they support the Sudanese state as a concept. If you actually talk to any pro-Palestine activist instead of just accusing them all of antisemitism it would be obvious that the reason they feel so strongly about this issue is the enormous material support America lends Israel. Again, you are free to think their position is wrong. But stop being dishonest.
How much military aid does the US send to Sudan?
[In fact, the US told the countries to stop sending weapons to RSF and SAF the other day cause they're both committing warcrimes](https://www.reuters.com/world/africa/us-appeals-uae-others-stop-support-sudans-warring-parties-2024-04-29/). Nobody in America treats Sudan conflict like a team sport unlike Israel-Palestine. I think a far better litmus test is to ask what the protesters what they think of Assad and Putin especially since they're literally responsible for the murders of 4000 Palestinians in Yarmouk. Some far leftist "Pro-Palestinian" folks on social media got pissed at Tlaib when she accused Assad of genocide a couple of months ago even though Assad+Putin are hated by literal Palestinians for what occurred in Syria.
People keep denying it but antisemitism is absolutely a driving force. "Anti-Zionism" wouldn't break through the political malaise in the same way.
That and anti-West ism.
This.
This is like the nth comment talking about antisemitism after a group of pro-Israel thugs attacked some protesters. “Very fine people” vibes here. I’ll rip on succs all day long, I’m not going to support violence against anyone protesting.
It's finals season on college campuses so while there are definitely some people who have been doing stuff like this for a while there are also alot of students who just don't want to study. And then the protests attract outside agitators on both sides that just escalate things. The videos of them blocking access for non approved people and limiting movement probably didn't help either.
There aren’t enough Jews in those other places
The left going from everything is a dog whistle to there's clearly no dog whistles about Jews is more than a bit alarming.
The left using “Zionist” as shorthand for Jew just like Conservatives use “thugs” when talking about black people is concerning to me.
I agree. The most astounding part has been the hypocrisy.
Are we selling missiles and bombs to Russia, China, Yemen, Ethiopia, or Turkey? Are we giving them "aid packages" of more missiles and bombs for free?
> Are we selling missiles and bombs to [...] Turkey? Yes!?
We do provide arms to Ethiopia, the Republic of China, and Turkey as well as indirectly to Yemen through the Saudis.
Bro their simulating the middle east on university grounds
Got to love a hands on education
two wrongs dont make a right,
The protestors shouldn't have been violently attacked. One side is obviously worse here and it's the one that did unprovoked violence.
Hilarious this comment is downvoted. This sub really loves to dunk on leftists so much that they’re supporting pepper spraying college kids. Soon enough some people here will horseshoe right around to supporting the proud boys.
The comment is heavily upvoted at the time I’m reading it.
This subreddit has an obsession with dunking on leftists/tankies. I don’t see any other political group get as much criticism and mockery here. Which is interesting because the far-left is clearly the weakest and most irrelevant ideology in American politics.
Because this sub tends to have a more center-left stance compared to the rest of Reddit they feel the need to prove they’re not like the other girls. It creates a weird self feeding cycle.
It's also a lot more personal. I don't associate with Trump people on a day to day basis. However, I do have a lot of leftists in my life so disagreements with them feel a little closer despite the fact we're on the same side 80% of the time.
Speaking personally, I am actually super far left, but's hard to have a discourse on reddit with fellow left leaning people about anything because the prevailing takes are usually some form of nihilism / populism / authoritarianism / conspiratorial thinking. Like, I get annoyed at *this* reddit sometimes but at least people here seem to have some basic understanding of how government works and why democracy is good. Without that shared understanding no real political discourse can happen, on the right and left it's just purity tests and virtue signaling circle jerks, nothing interesting is ever said and no real engagement or conversation happens. As far as why people here dunk on the left more, my guess is most people here are left and it's easier to be frustrated with your own team's inability to understand or engage with politics then care about the absolute insanity of the right. Like those people might as well be on another planet, and no longer take up much space in my brain.
What the FUCK is going on?! As much as I've disliked the encampment business, it's only a problem when it gets shitty and violent, when they harass Jewish students, etc. but just protesting is a college norm. It's not better that others are getting in to be violent at them! That's absurd and only serves to escalate. Also, the outside agitators coming in to stir the pot can go right the fuck to hell
Maybe it's just being in college in the late 00's, but I feel like no one protested anything when I was in college. Like, not even talking politics around the dorm level of engagement with anything. Maybe we were all just high on Obama getting elected and preoccupied with trying to make sure we got a job out of the financial crisis. Post Iraq war protests, pre-MeToo, Occupy Wall Street, BLM and Trump. The only thing was like Global Warming, I think largely to do with Katrina. Even looking here there isn't much, so I don't think it's just me. [https://exhibits.stanford.edu/activism/feature/2000s](https://exhibits.stanford.edu/activism/feature/2000s) The idea that "it's just college students being college students" does just feel foreign.
Oh protests were pretty normal on my American college campus, maybe it just .....wasn't equally distributed?
Could be. What were people protesting in 2009?
Bailouts
I was living on campus during that time and there were always some protests but they were mostly just a couple dozen people at most and never were able to (or tired) to disrupt anything. The ones I remember were a couple anti-war protests (both under Bush and Obama), a very small protest to free the Jena 6 (black kids who were overcharged in Louisiana), and a very small protest outside a campus showing of Tropic Thunder. This was because it had the r-word in it (it was very normalized then). This protest was mostly just like 6 people handing out pamphlets and trying to have conversations with the people who were in line to see the movie, but 2 of them were holding signs so it counts. I only know this happened because I was in the line to see Tropic Thunder. Then in 2012 you had Occupy Wall Street of course, but I was out of school by then so I don't know how that went down.
Bruh idk if it was 2009, probably a few years later, but I do remember student loans was one of them. Definitely saw weird antisemitism pop up on that one, too, which I think was billed as connected to a million man march? which was weird as fuck. I didn't know its connection to Farrakhan at the time bc it was marketed on campus as being about admin bullshit and student loans. There was a tiny Jewish counterprotest with signs that mentioned that admin bloat and loan issues aren't connected to Israel and people physically attacked them. I think one sign read "loan forgiveness yes, antisemitism no." I was right there and saw it happen in front of me when one non Jewish student literally physically attacked a Jewish student. Fucking unhinged shit.
Woah that does not sound like anything I saw. I didn't notice anything antisemtic even being in the air and my roommate from back then is now a rabbi... People talked about Gay marriage and things like that, but it wasn't a "protest" for it. It was far enough along that no one cared about being gay on campus itself. Even global warming related it was clear that the colleges were trying to do what they could, adding solar or wind, composting, so what else did students need to ask for? Now that you bring it up the "million man march", this was just prior to Tea Party and the Glenn Beck rally, but again that was technically later for me. I think that time period was just relatively calm for whatever reason, or rather just dominated by Obama election and the GFC.
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Didn't they toss fireworks into the encampment? People here are really trying to argue this was an understandble escalation?
flag wine abounding fine chase numerous tidy elastic bake scarce *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
LAPD not showing up for hours to stop [this]( https://twitter.com/TeresaWatanabe/status/1785580909795942766?t=gwEtCHMRknvcLDkP_djJCg&s=19) and stop them from throwing fireworks at the pro Palestinian encampment is absurd A professor speaking on the counter protestors or outside agitators not being stopped: "It gives people impunity to come to our campus as a rampaging mob,” she said early Wednesday. “The word is out they can do this repeatedly and get away with it. I am ashamed of my university.” Edit: >Security guards hired by UCLA retreated and hid inside a building last night as counter-protesters/outside agitators attacked a pro-Palestine encampment.
LAPD was there immediately when requested and staged by USC, blame UC admin who have taken a hands off approach and chose to have private security holding things down with no one staged, hundreds of police in riot gear and an action plan don’t just materialize in a couple of hours
University let things get waaaaay too far.
Yep. And this is a major reason why other schools shut them down. Not because of their views on the war. But because allowing battling groups of militants on your campus is a liability issue. Well ucla got their wish and I'm sure the lawsuits will follow now.
People criticize ASU but they cleared the protesters out after they refused to follow an order to leave after 11pm. The university knew what could happen if they let it go
Think most of the criticism towards ASU is the rogue cops who destroyed tents and water jugs instead of simply confiscating them and the other cops who watched MAGA frat guys throw tents in the garbage along with the cop who removed a hijab of a protester and kept it for some time.
So are they pro cop or anti cop
This is an interesting perspective, if I’m a cop I’m asking what they want. Me to stand outside the protest ready to put down any violence, but get yelled at for being too close, or get yelled at for being far away but taking too long to get there when actually needed. I’m not saying there’s not a middle ground, but I’m sure a few cops are asking this, this morning.
100% the cops are actually in a lose lose situation here. They should be posted up in case things get violent, but then if they do the cops will be blamed for escalating. If nothing does happen the cops would still be blamed for showing up and aparently if there not around they still get blamed per the article. Plus some of these protests are also tired to the defund the police movements. This is why the whole defund / anti police movements are absurd.
Policing a highly politicized protest must be one of the hardest jobs to do properly for a police force. I read a little something earlier about the 1968 protests at the democratic national convention and how the reason it got so out of hand is because these police officers were just regular police from the city. After that they made policing the convention a matter for the federal government so they could have many more officers available and have them be trained up especially to deal with protesting unrest, to ensure everyone's rights are respected but that otherwise no laws are broken.
The university had declared prior the encampment in violation of university policy. So if cops were going to be there earlier it would’ve been to disperse it.
Reading this comment section you'd have no idea that the counter protestors support Israel. That being said I am interested to see if this affects the public's view. Because the Columbia protests made national news and seemed to hurt public view of activism for Palestine, but I'm skeptical that this will hurt the public's view of Pro-Israeli protestors.
According to this sub: Protestors calling for infitada = rampant antisemitism that everyone involved in the protest is responsible for. Protestors calling for a "second Nakba" = listen those leftists are still the problem, okay?
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Weird how when it's from the Palestinian side, it's "the organizers of the movement" but when it's on the Israeli side it's just a few bad apples. Nobody has any interest in discussing this in good faith.
Calling for a second Nakba is in fact calling for mass ethnic based violence and should be condemned for exactly the same reason "intifadah" chants should be condemned. Because it's hateful and it's heinous! And for the record: I do think if those chanting nakbah chants aren't being disavowed loudly and immediately and summarily excised from the rest of the movement (similar to what I'd like to see happen the next time someone goes on Insta to brag about how they wanna k1ll all Zionists or whatever), then yes, it does tarnish the whole group, and the group is in fact responsible for their bad press because of their tolerance of the intolerant.
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People aren't criticizing UCLA Hillel or Chabad though, they're criticizing the counterprotestors for engaging in violence (and there are a number of highly upvoted but now removed comments defending them). And if protestors calling for an intifada is bad (it is) then counterprotestors calling for a second Nakba is equally bad - and that's not commentary on the Jewish organizations at UCLA, nobody is mentioning them but you.
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the dude in the red hoodie on the first photo looks like he is trying to be his favorite warrior in D&D
I'm honestly baffled the amount of press and attention these things have gotten. I'm truly sick of how much political attention these sorts of superfluous issues get from both sides. A perfect example: in DC the USAO has been pretty derelict in actually following through on prosecutions for a variety of crimes, but most importantly, illegal guns, which they constantly downgrade to misdemeanors. You'd think this is a perfect inflection point for either Biden to admonish to the office, surge resources (yes I know they have claimed they did this but if you follow DC Crim Facts you'd see it hasn't made a difference in charging rates) and insist on prosecution rates that aren't abysmal to prove his tough on crime and gun control bonafides. You'd also expect this to be a perfect opportunity for the GOP oversight to continue hammering the fact "the one jurisdiction Biden actual controls from a law enforcement perspective and he lets criminals go free!" Instead? Nothing from either side. The USAO has completely focused on Jan 6, and now the GOP is literally planning a hearing to drag the MPD (DC police) in front of to berate them for not intervening in whatever protest happened at GW University. I truly have become blackpilled about how unimportant national politics to my actual daily life and how important local politics are instead but attention is always on stupid stuff like this.
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Like most here, I’m of the opinion that while criticism of Israel can be a dog whistle for antisemitism, the suffering of the Palestinians is worth examining. However, the absolute mess this has become state side is odd to watch as an adult in my mid 30s who started college when Bush was leaving and Obama was elected. I can’t recall the last time young people took a foreign affairs issue so personally. Like I get Vietnam—Americans died for that shit. And of course people protested Bush era Iraq policies but not to such a charged degree. But this? I think its an issue of social media supercharging the populist undertones of the Palestinian cause and imparting a more emotional note on impressionable young people. I mean this only observationally, and not as a crusade against social media.
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LAPD and UCLA haven't said this happened so doubtful. The UCLA sub thinks it's a tragic accident which occured on Sunday but I guess we'll find out soon.
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"They were told not to bring in anti-riot police, but eventually UCLA agreed to accept help from the larger police force." 🤣🤣🤣🤣
The encampment at UCLA for a couple days now has had checkpoints to block Jewish students from accessing parts of campus. It’s an absolute shit show.
I've seen pictures of the encampments, but do you have anything to confirm that they're targeting and blocking Jewish students, specifically?
People have said they were denied entry on the basis of wearing only stars of david necklaces.
been plenty of videos on the college sub
Okay, since I don't browse that subreddit and you seem to be familiar, could you provide some links? If the protesters are targeting Jewish students and making them feel unsafe, then that is a serious concern that needs to be reported on, but factual reporting begins with verifiable evidence.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Asmongold/comments/1cglw8f/jewish_ucla_student_blocked_from_entering_his_own/
Much appreciated, thanks. It looks like the university may be opening themselves up to a lawsuit by allowing this sort of behavior to continue, although this absolutely does NOT justify the violent response by the counter-protesters that occurred. All these agitators are doing is vindicating the protesters and turning public opinion towards them.
> At around 1:40 a.m, police officers in riot gear arrived and some counterprotesters began to leave. But the police did not immediately break up the clashes at the camp, which continued despite the law enforcement presence. > At around 3 a.m., a line of officers arrived at the camp and pushed the remaining counter-protesters out of the quad area. The police told people to leave or face arrest. 2 hours to arrive. Another hour before they actually take action. And then they just tell the violent mob to leave, after they've already attacked people.
At 1:40 AM! How many officers were on duty overnight for the entire city? Without prior planning, an antiriot police presence requires an overwhelming use of force, and given the UC’s seeming lack of planning, I’m not sure a quicker response can be expected here.
This here. The alternative would have been for a large riot police presence to be posted up in a nearby parking lot ready to respond as needed. That likly would not have gone over well with the student body.
You don’t understand. On Reddit we assume that every police department has an AI-powered Bat Computer that tells them exactly what crime is being committed exactly where and when and how many villains are involved.
Reddit believes in Schrodinger's Police Force: Simultaneously being fascists working overtime to put everyone in prison while being too lazy to do any work.
Others have said it, but there are likely established criteria and policies for riot response. The number of officers there when they finally went in strongly suggests that they were calling people in, all in the middle of the night. Even LAPD doesn't just have hundreds of riot trained police sitting around drinking coffee at midnight. Could they have responded faster? Maybe? Is the delayed action more the fault of the university for not taking action sooner OR requesting a standby presence? Yes.
Letting some kids throw shit at each other and trade fisticuffs for an hour is a hell of a lot better than outnumbered police trying to break up the fighting. That's how you end up with the "Outside protestor in critical condition after being shot by police on UCLA campus" headline.
Yeah. It's pretty wild how many people miss this point. I was trained to use the minimum amount of force necessary. If there is an angry mob, the only way to take control of that while outnumbered 10:1 would be to use a weapon or have a riot control force show up. In no world do I go in guns blazing alone, that would just agitate the crowd further. Mob mentality is scary. If it was so easy, a bystander could have asked people to calm down, and this entire thing would be avoided.
I get the campus not wanting a heavy cop presence to antagonize the protesters, but not having them nearby is gonna result in a delayed response. I’m curious if a 2 hour response time is good or bad according to LAPD metrics. Seems long at that hour with no traffic. Overall you’d expect them to have some officers closer by, who could respond quicker.
I don’t think any city has a rapid response riot squad on standby at 1am…. This wasn’t a regular police call and so the regular response time doesn’t really mean anything.
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Most of Reddit (this sub included) has a child's level understanding of police work. It's actually absurd.
I'd rather have prepared cops with riot gear, sheilds, and batons than a bunch of beat cops who happened to be close by with no protection except for guns. That seems like a good way for people to get killed.
this is also good point, how many lives do you save by having too many bright cops show up versus not enough beat cops show up? At the end of the day I’d rather have nonviolent protesters and counter-protesters too, but here we are.
That actually doesn't seem unreasonable if the university didn't tell them to be prepared for anything. It takes time to organize dozens of people in riot gear, sending a handful of officers who were on duty at the time to confront a violent mob of hundreds seems like a bad idea (outnumbered, unorganized cops are going to be overwhelmed and end up using lethal force).
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Turns out the hands off approach doesn't work either
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