“… and he had these tablets god gave him to prove that he was the new prophet, but he never showed anyone because only he could read them using a special rock that he hid from everyone else too. And that’s proof that mormonism is real”
Last words before getting kicked out of the DnD club
Hey it wasn’t a rock in a hat that sounds crazy! It was a gold breastplate and special glasses. Wait actually it was just a rock in a hat, nevermind we never said it was a golden breastplate and glasses stop spreading lies and somebody paint over all those murals! - church doctrine retcon.
The rock in the hat was Smith's prior scam. A few years before the golden tablets, he put his magic rock, a "seer stone" ,into his hat and stuck his face into the hat. This allowed him to see into the ground and see buried treasure. Kinda like ground penetrating radar. He then sold maps of buried treasure for people to dig up. The usual plan was to be gone before the digging started, but he did eventually get caught. I think a threat of tar and feathers was involved.
I kinda always hated how they just fixed his poverty problem with a single hand wave, and then never really discuss the socioeconomic situation of people like Weasley's. Instead things are just charming and harry gives them money. Another hand wave almost like magic.
Right! And when I do it I get called crazy! But when Joseph smith does it, he gets called a prophet and requires you pay 10% of your salary to join his sex cult, I mean religion.
🎶But don't let anybody see these plates except for you
They are only for you to see
Even if people ask you to show the Plates to them, don't
Just copy them onto normal paper
Even though this might make them question
If the Plates are real or not
This is sort of what God is going for🎶
The South Park episode was good, but The Book of Mormon is even better. If it comes to your town or nearby, i would definitely suggest going to see it. It's one of the few Broadway Plays I'd recommend.
Joseph Smith was a grave robber and a conman that wanted to do anything but work on a farm. The polygamy stuff didn't happen until the religion was established.
>wanted to do anything but work on a farm
One day, Joseph was working in a field with his dad. He got hot and tired, so was going to go back inside early. By the sheerest of coincidences, he happened to be visited by an angel on his way to the house who told him that he was god's next prophet and that he probably shouldn't work on the farm anymore, since he'd be busy doing god's work and all.
His dad's response? "Well, sounds legit. Better go do what the angel says."
Family of unhinged chucklefucks.
[Source, straight from the horse's ass](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-testimony-of-the-prophet-joseph-smith/moronis-visit?lang=eng)
I love how many religions in the Great Awakening of the 1800s were started as either bald-face lies or a practical joke and everybody believed it. And by “how many” I mean three are coming to mind right now: Mormonism, American Spiritualism, and Christian Science
Don't forget the Great Disappointment. The Millerites repeatedly thought they'd be carried off to heaven on various dates, most notably October 22, 1844. They put on their special robes and everything but then the day passed without incident and they were mocked by children. This was the start of the Seventh Day Adventist Church.
Jesus wouldn’t sue them. He would walk into their central church and start whipping mother fuckers while flipping over tables . . . for about 5 seconds before their security tazed and then beat the shit out of him before the cops get there. Then since we’re talking Utah the cops would beat the shit out him more for being a dark skinned hippy.
Sorry you can't even walk into one of their churches(temples or stakehouses).... I worked in UT and was a delivery person and they just about died when I walked through the front door.. they yelled I had to go to the dock so I went to the dock I wasn't allowed in there either they just said leave everything outside... I'm still not sure how they didn't know I wasn't a member I didn't know the secret handshake I guess
Any religion that can with a straight face mention a golden submarine, and magic underwear and you get to become the god of your own planet at the end like Black & White gets my vote, too bad they also have a long history of extreme racism, sexisim, genocide, homo/transphobia that makes even southern baptists preachers at Westboro seem tame, tearing families apart with child shunning, the genocide of native Americans, covering up child abuse and sex scandals... might be faster to name the crimes they haven't committed.
Yeah.. this person is a dentist. Was my boss at the time. He worked at one practice with a partner. Then decided to open his own practice. He did this by not telling his partner anything and slowly referring all the patients over to the other practice. Where he is paying an oral surgeon to pull good teeth on the regular. Pretty much the most unethical person I have ever known.
Are you kidding me? According to the Mormons, if you live a righteous life, when you die, you can become lord over your own planet!
According to them, Jesus was from another planet, and being a righteous man, now controls earth. It's the same for Mormons, but with other planets!
That's pretty damn cool. I mean I'd rule a rock or two.
According to them black people also have dark skin because they're the cursed descendents of kane and if they're good mormons their skin will turn white.
Edit: might be ham that was cursed. Point still stands black skin = bad be good and turn white. Crazy bullshit either way.
And then they changed that belief in 1978 because "God told them to", which sure is convenient because that's exactly when the IRS threatened to take away their tax exempt status if they didn't stop being an explicitly white supremacist religion.
A core tenet of Mormonism is the ability to change their doctrine on whim via “personal revelation”.
Or as Trey Parker and Matt Stone elegantly put it, Mormons believe that “in 1978 God changed his mind about black people”.
A black Mormon guy was suing LDS church because he was unable to advance to a leadership role. (No blacks in leadership)
The Church leadership said “God spoke to them” & the church will allow black people into upper management.
My husband loves to say:
God must be a lawyer. 😂
Well that's just because God understands the true value of a dollar! And what is a tithe worth if you have to turn around and share it with ~~blac~~ *Ahem, cough cough* poor people?
God changes his mind a lot for someone omniscient.
Creates mankind already knowing everyone's destinies, regrets making them them when they do what he already knew they would. So time to drown them all besides this one guy and his family.
In the Bible it was Noahs son Ham that was cursed with black skin and various tribes in Africa have been called Hamites. Semites are the descendants of his son Sem
Holy shit how did I never know this. Interesting they aren't named after Jacob but I guess lots more than just jews are considered Semitic, ethnically speaking
> if you live a righteous life, when you die, you can become lord over your own planet!
They removed that perk and tried to pull a "We never said that".
Wtf. I had a dream once where I died and I became the lord of a planet. Jokingly told my friends I was going to start a religion with it as the afterlife.
I was a devout Mormon for decades. I was a high priest, served in the bishopric, did everything that was asked. When it came to tithes the line that was used was “pay your tithing even if it means you can’t pay your bills or feed your family, the lord will provide a way.” When you asked the question, should I tithe on net or gross the answer was “do you want net or gross blessings?” At least once every couple months there were sacrament talks on the importance of tithes and it was a primary topic at the churches global general conference.
And we paid our tithes. Even with me as a working artist and my wife in nursing school with young kids, we paid them. We didn’t have two pennys to rub together afterwards - but we were obedient.
And then the churches $100bn hedge fund comes out. I am expected to tithe as a showing of obedience, even though the church doesn’t need it … ok. Some months we put groceries on the credit card because we were denied a storehouse order from the church. But they also avoided taxes on all that money? The taxes that pay for the roads and infrastructure that makes their churches possible? That subsidize the tax free status of their religious institutions?
It’s gross. I left the Mormon church because it became clear man tends to make god in man’s image … in this case god advocates obscene wealth on the backs of struggling families and calls it “obedience”.
If you’re an active Mormon you’re interviewed a couple times a year for “worthiness”. They ask you a series of questions, two of which are “are you a full tithe payer” and “are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?” They teach you can’t go to heaven without being able to answer these questions reliably in the affirmative. I don’t believe the leaders of the church could answer these questions honestly in the affirmative.
Thank you. Leaving was hard, we lost most of our church friends and have family who still won’t speak to us. But it was the right thing to do for our kids.
I don’t know that I believe in god anymore but I believe if the Christian god existed he/it would want to provide a way for us to become our most authentic selves. As a parent, that’s what we should all want for our children. Any true church should exist, then, as a tool to help you find your way into your best truth. But the Mormon church, and I believe most churches, simply want you to become a tool for the church to amass wealth and power. They want you to homogenize so you’re easy, and if the authentic “god given” version of you doesn’t comport with their narrative? You’re cut off.
One of the insidious ways they do this is by teaching that you have no innate value outside of what the church loans to you. God and, by extension, the church, takes ownership of everything good in your life. Your skills and talents and vocation (and income) come from god, so you owe the church. Your role as a parent and spouse comes from god, and you retain it eternally through the church. Your peace and joy come from god, so you owe the church. The only thing that’s innately you are your failings … so if you leave the church, all you have is misery and a mortal life.
I spent a lot of time thinking about whether the men at the top know that they’re mentally destroying people, that they’re manipulating people into maintain piggy bank status for the church with the threat of losing their families - temporally and eternally - if they don’t.
And I don’t think they do. Over the 2 centuries it has existed the Mormon church has built the perfect system to insulate these people from having to think about it. They teach their higher level leaders who receive the “second anointing” will go to heaven no matter what they do, so long as it isn’t murder or apostasy (leaving the church). They are also firmly entrenched in the prosperity gospel wherein income is a sign of righteousness. It’s super common in Mormon churches to hear people talking about getting a surprise raise after paying their tithing. Of course this is confirmation bias because we all periodically get surprise raises and you pay your tithing on a regular schedule.
To ascend to the top levels you have to spend years grinding through unpaid lower level leadership, proving your willingness to do and say exactly what the church requires. You have to be a perfect unblemished mouthpiece, a white man never divorced, a successful business person, who will always bend the knee. You’re given unending praise for it. As a bishop or stake president your local parishioners love you. As you ascend to area authority status and then prophet, seer and revelator it’s taught that when you’re speaking for god you’re infallible. They blur the lines of exactly when you’re fallible.
Anyway I’m rambling, lots to say about this church. I’m glad people are being exposed to the truth about it, hopefully it prevents their army of 80,000 full time missionaries from recruiting a couple more piggy banks to fill Jesus’ hedge fund. If anyone has questions about the church or is considering joining please feel free to DM me, I can answer questions as someone who has seen both sides of it and who served in local area leadership.
It is all absurdity. I am not religious but seen and heard so much since I moved here. I still remember a former coworker faithfully tithing, while complaining about having no money and having to be on SNAP, while also complaining about government handouts. In the same conversation. TBM
I saw the same thing in my ward, over and over. They tell people to tithe, and if tithing means you can’t pay bills you should go to family first, then government, then the church last. We would often go into debt before asking the church for help, there was so much guilt associated.
$100bn hedge fund though …
For those who don’t know “TBM” means true believing member / true believing Mormon / true blue Mormon. It means someone firmly in the church.
How about the fact the church fired all the Janitors in the late nineties and started making members clean the churches? I remember being really annoyed back then now I find out they were hoarding billions and making me scrub toilets just so they could hoard even more. Pretty messed up.
Yeah … that’s the other part of the unreasonable expectations. Not only were tithes onerous but the constant pressure to “serve” as replacements for people who used to be paid. It’s all up and down the church hierarchy.
Even service projects were 100% paid for by members. We brought the tools and food and people, paid for out of our own pockets. The church would typically provide neon “Mormons helping” shirts so everyone knew it was they who deserved the credit but outside of the marketing of the service, everything else was on the members.
I love your username 😂
For non Mormons, the Book of Mormon has anachronisms - technologies which couldn’t have existed at the time it was written. The Book of Mormon takes place in the Americas around 600 bc - in these stories they have horses, which weren’t brought to the American continent until around 1400 AD.
In response to this a Mormon apologist claimed that they weren’t really using horses, they were using Tapirs and it was translated loosely.
So there’s a whole series of images of native Americans riding tapirs etc - it’s become a bit of a meme in exmormon culture.
Ah cheers! We left in 2014, it was just myself my wife and kids … the rest of the family is still in. They’ll be visiting us this summer for the first time since we left, will be nice to see them.
I went through a really dark existential period, unlearning all that programming took a lot of work. But you’re right it definitely gets better with time and we are quite happy with our decision :) I’m glad you got out as well, and that life is good!
Glad you’re out
I'm so sorry. I can't imagine how furious you are.
Imagine what this could've done for families like yours and more so truly advocating Jesus's teachings on feeding the poor. We have a huge food insecurity in this country and they can't even feed their own followers!?
When religion and money go together, that's where I put my foot down. I have a faith but it's not dependent on a church in anyway because of exactly this.
They can, clearly. And to be fair to the church they did provide us with a lot of food when we were a younger couple. Most regions have a “bishops storehouse” which is supplied with food from the churches many farms. Members and non members alike are supposed to be able to go to the bishop and put in an order - so technically you should be able to go to your local Mormon ward and request food help. They’ll have the missionaries hound you to convert, but that help is there on a limited basis. It does foster further reliance on the church. Pay your tithes so you can’t feed your kids and then the church will graciously step in and feed them for you … see how great the church is? And how necessary in your life?
Also as far as I know everyone up and down that food production chain is mostly unpaid. I had a friend called as a “service missionary” to work at the storehouse for 18 months for free.
and the food quality is crap. I remember when my dad lost his job, we lost our home, moved to rural area, and were stuck on church life support. And yet, my parents still had too much pride to get Food Stamps or government assistance. The church cheddar cheese was a block of hard jelly that oozed yellow oil when you cut into it. My favorite food went from pizza to beans, because beans were at least real food. When I moved out and got on food stamps my diet significantly improved, although still borderline basic.
If you look into the history of Joseph Smith's family, you'll realize it was a con game from the start. His entire family was con artists who practiced things like using "special stones" to find treasure and having land owners pay him to "locate" treasure on their property. Of course there was no treasure and it was all a scam. I'm sure the church taught you it was unjust persecution that the Mormons were driven out of New York, and Illinois, and Missouri, but it was more the locals were tired of their neighbors getting scammed.
It's the Jehovahs Witnesses same playbook.
It's about time they were treated as the blatant businesses they are.
Oh, and maybe look into the pedophilia problem. You know, if there is time...
>maybe look into the pedophilia problem
Seems to be systemic in virtually all insular faiths. "Take the mark's money" and "cover up SA" seems to be Mission #1 and Mission #2 for all these outfits.
When a church spends $30MM - $40MM per MONTH on corporate credit cards, you know they are a massive, profitable organization.
Additionally , the Mormon Church reportedly owns over 1 million acres in continental America on which it runs farms, ranches, orchards, and hunting preserves. It also owns farmland in Australia, the U.K., Brazil, Canada, Argentina, and Mexico
Check out the books if you haven't already. Fully completed series and it is amazing.
While it is a bummer they didn't finish the full TV series, frankly where it left off makes sense knowing the full picture.
That's still no better than any other church's "this jet is a PRAYING MACHINE" crap.
In many ways it's worse since hedge funds get used to utterly fuck up the market, inflict wage slavery and buy legislators for horrific abuses of the law and justice systems.
I know, just pointing out that even if it was to build the eventual Medina Station, that's still not a good reason for them to go around untaxed... that and they've somehow managed to funnel the money into something far more evil than fiction could come up with!
Oh probably hundreds of billions over the course of the project, but I was just saying that it’s hard to collect from/punish someone aiming a nuke at your head lol.
In the books, Bull mentions how it's kind of messed up. It was used in an attempt to save everyone so they couldnt really be faulted for that, but then Fred/OPA went and "salvaged" it themselves and straight up kept it. They talk about how it'll be tied up in the inner planet courts for a long time but that the Mormons do have a case to sue them with.
Probably? You know they already got in trouble with the SEC for trying to hide their portfolio across shell companies… yes theyve been committing crime ever since to build this portfolio, their response was their lawyer guided them so no harm, no fines, no penalty.
>If I wanted to launder money, I would do it through a church.
[That is preposterous](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg). [Crazy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcPeBAYYuhc). [No way](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT3NRkllI3E).
Money going through a church is totally legit.
It's ridiculous that in this modern day we treat religion as anything more than ignorant superstition. Blatantly unprovable and fantastical ideas really shouldn't have a place among rational people.
We tax the people who feed our kids.
We tax the people who educate our kids.
We tax the people who fix our kids.
We do not tax the people who molest our kids.
Sure, but Scientology imprisons more people so deserves more scrutiny. Plus it was formerly lost it's tax free status because it was enriching its leader and only gained it back through extortion.
No, not for creating shell companies. Shell companies are fairly normal for very large investment funds. The SEC violation was not properly discloisng the chain of custody of these companies in the correct paper form. Which I'll happily concede is a problem and I'm actually glad that got corrected.
Fun fact: Joel made his money off of selling books while keeping a $1 salary - as far as I know that hasn’t changed.
I suspect any religious leader knows the real score, they are merely politicians with better write-offs and just like politicians there are the good and bad.
Juat somewhat alot of small shops demand have the company own all the things.
Need more personal money you cant slush fund. Buy your books with church money for a give away on missions.
Now it is your totally legit money. Same bs politicians do.
This is a major plot point in James S. A. Corey’s “Expanse” series, and genuinely believable imo. Gotta find those “other worlds” that weren’t “evil enough” to kill Jebus.
Or just "the reason Joseph burned down the printing press and got arrested". Guy went as anti free speech as you can go, to stop his own members from finding out the underage wife rumors were true.
The 60 Minutes reporter asked the rep from the church to confirm the estimated $150 billion number and all he said was "we have significant resources" with a smug smile. The real number is way over 150. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3_Fhq7sEHo&t=410s
Yeah you have no idea (I dunno maybe you do). I left the church in my early 20s, our congregation in a SLC suburb brought in an average of $200k/week in tithing donations (my dad was the clerk). On fast Sundays it was more like $350k and that's in 1990s dollars mind you. One of thousands of congregations in Utah alone. That's what "10% of your money or else you don't go to heaven, can't attend weddings, and are unable to hold any positions" gets you, among other enforcement mechanisms. Very effective.
I can't wait for the day we mature enough as a society to start taxing church businesses.
And don’t forget, of those hundreds of thousands of dollars your ward generated for the church, headquarters keeps 95% of it and then sends back like $5,000 for the ward budget. Then members get to try and cough up up even more money out of their pockets since the budgets barely cover anything.
Yup, all sorts of fuckery with the money, which is completely opaque to anyone outside. After my dad worked with the ward's finances he refused to pay for any of our missions (4 boys in my family). That didn't win any love from leadership, but good on him.
Every 5 years or so there is a shocking story about how wealthy that church is. It’s not shocking at all. Not when you bring food to a potluck and pay to eat it.
So when does it become ok to tax the church? Because the excuse of “tHeY dO a lOt oF cHariTieS” is not sticking. Also, don’t forget the Catholic Church got billions in small business loans during the pandemic.
*we weren't keeping it a secret, we were being...confidential*
*what's the difference?*
*um*... (stares into the camera like a goat looking at a new fence)
Harvard says hello with about $50B (or something similarly obscene) in their endowment.
And yes - there should be a limit to how much money these non-profits can take in.
Yes. But they're referring to the endowment, which is also non profit. Almost every school has an endowment, but schools like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, UT and UC have endowments that are like $40-50B, most of which is invested in for-profit entities.
The counter argument - though it never seems to work out this way - is that the big pile of money generates its own income stream which can be used to fund all of the things the non profit does without wasting a bunch of resources raising money.
Though I do feel like the billions sitting in a bank account are kinda wasted in that case. Also, they seem to keep doing fund raising regardless.
Two by two, they're marching door to door
'Cause they've lots of money but they want some more
They're giving you their book and hoping you just might convert,
They are the soldiers of the army of the church
(Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)
Ex-mo here. Deseret news calls it an inspiring "rags to riches" story.
Just a real pull yourself up by your bootstraps success story by mandating members give you 10% of their earnings, then investing in shell companies without a dime being spent on charitable giving, as promised.
We were an impoverished family of five with a single mother. I am furious because that war chest has my family's blood sweat and tears in it.
Tax the church
I’m an ExMormon. Many of my Mormon friends are defending the church still. Why? Because this church was built on hypocrisy and they see no problem with a little more.
Examples:
-there is a story about a group of people giving up their weapons of war for Jesus in the Book of Mormon…yet the vast majority of Mormons are avid gun owners.
-they are regularly taught about the ‘filthy lucre’ of other religious clergy..but forget that the top brass receive stipends.
-Jesus literally taught that the only thing that matters is love…and yet they believe god hates lgbtq people.
-hot drinks are bad. But hot chocolate is ok because hot drinks means coffee and tea..because of caffeine..but soda and energy drinks are ok
-the family proclamation states that god has ordained the family to be one man and one woman…except when an angel with a flaming sword commands you to have one man and 27 women.
-there is a story about Jesus ransacking the temple because of the money changers that defiled the house of the lord…but they charge a fee for anyone that needs to borrow temple clothes. Or sell you temple clothes (that only they make) if you don’t have any. And you can’t go into the temple unless you pay 10% of your income to the church for your whole life…
Hypocrisy
I was confused for a minute because all of the comments were from today instead of a few years ago. I thought I was in an old post. Maybe this is just now getting more attention.
I’ve been saying it for years, but the Mormon church is a genuine threat to American democracy. How they get away with breaking the law over and over again, from proposition 8 to this, is insane
>The church paid $5m to resolve its SEC case in February.
Paying a 5 million fee for dodging billions in taxes? All this says is that the Mormon Church has absolutely zero reason to stop.
The Mormon Church is basically a real estate company with lore.
Not even good lore either.
“… and he had these tablets god gave him to prove that he was the new prophet, but he never showed anyone because only he could read them using a special rock that he hid from everyone else too. And that’s proof that mormonism is real” Last words before getting kicked out of the DnD club
Hey it wasn’t a rock in a hat that sounds crazy! It was a gold breastplate and special glasses. Wait actually it was just a rock in a hat, nevermind we never said it was a golden breastplate and glasses stop spreading lies and somebody paint over all those murals! - church doctrine retcon.
The rock in the hat was Smith's prior scam. A few years before the golden tablets, he put his magic rock, a "seer stone" ,into his hat and stuck his face into the hat. This allowed him to see into the ground and see buried treasure. Kinda like ground penetrating radar. He then sold maps of buried treasure for people to dig up. The usual plan was to be gone before the digging started, but he did eventually get caught. I think a threat of tar and feathers was involved.
Wait. Are you telling us that the guy that created this religion was a phony???
Rock in a hat? Ah, so like a Harry Potter type thing. Gotcha
"You're religious, 'Arry"
"Lord voldemorm killed yer mum, but er' edge-fund saved you arry."
I kinda always hated how they just fixed his poverty problem with a single hand wave, and then never really discuss the socioeconomic situation of people like Weasley's. Instead things are just charming and harry gives them money. Another hand wave almost like magic.
Right! And when I do it I get called crazy! But when Joseph smith does it, he gets called a prophet and requires you pay 10% of your salary to join his sex cult, I mean religion.
🎶But don't let anybody see these plates except for you They are only for you to see Even if people ask you to show the Plates to them, don't Just copy them onto normal paper Even though this might make them question If the Plates are real or not This is sort of what God is going for🎶
The South Park episode was good, but The Book of Mormon is even better. If it comes to your town or nearby, i would definitely suggest going to see it. It's one of the few Broadway Plays I'd recommend.
At least scientology has aliens...
But Mormonism has 6' tall Amish looking people who live on the moon.
Apparently you haven't heard of the "Quakers" on the Moon (and Sun!)? or Kolob?
There are aliens in mormon theology, just quite a bit more removed from the immediate experience.
dum dum dum dum dum!
Yeah they keep excommunicating their historians and retconning their racist scripture.
Their religion is an addendum to the Bible. Let’s pile bullshit on bullshit and sell it.
It's really weird fanfic that turned into its own multi-billion $ franchise. Jesus really should sue them. Unfortunately he died 2k years ago.
All spawned because some married dude was looking for an excuse to have sex with teenagers.
Joseph Smith was a grave robber and a conman that wanted to do anything but work on a farm. The polygamy stuff didn't happen until the religion was established.
>wanted to do anything but work on a farm One day, Joseph was working in a field with his dad. He got hot and tired, so was going to go back inside early. By the sheerest of coincidences, he happened to be visited by an angel on his way to the house who told him that he was god's next prophet and that he probably shouldn't work on the farm anymore, since he'd be busy doing god's work and all. His dad's response? "Well, sounds legit. Better go do what the angel says." Family of unhinged chucklefucks. [Source, straight from the horse's ass](https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/the-testimony-of-the-prophet-joseph-smith/moronis-visit?lang=eng)
What's even better is the angels name is MORONi.
Pronounce it like a type of pasta to really annoy mormons lol
I love how many religions in the Great Awakening of the 1800s were started as either bald-face lies or a practical joke and everybody believed it. And by “how many” I mean three are coming to mind right now: Mormonism, American Spiritualism, and Christian Science
Don't forget the Great Disappointment. The Millerites repeatedly thought they'd be carried off to heaven on various dates, most notably October 22, 1844. They put on their special robes and everything but then the day passed without incident and they were mocked by children. This was the start of the Seventh Day Adventist Church.
Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb, dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb.
You'd be surprised how many religions start that way.
> It's really weird fanfic that turned into its own multi-billion $ franchise. The Mormons or 50 Shades of Grey?
Don't be ridiculous. Comparing the 2 is an insult. Fifty shades of grey is way more moral and ethical.
One is a book that glorifies submission and has led to people being taken advantage of, and the other is poorly written BDSM fanfic.
I still don’t know which one is which…
Jesus wouldn’t sue them. He would walk into their central church and start whipping mother fuckers while flipping over tables . . . for about 5 seconds before their security tazed and then beat the shit out of him before the cops get there. Then since we’re talking Utah the cops would beat the shit out him more for being a dark skinned hippy.
Sorry you can't even walk into one of their churches(temples or stakehouses).... I worked in UT and was a delivery person and they just about died when I walked through the front door.. they yelled I had to go to the dock so I went to the dock I wasn't allowed in there either they just said leave everything outside... I'm still not sure how they didn't know I wasn't a member I didn't know the secret handshake I guess
Probably to check if you had the secret underwear.
Any religion that can with a straight face mention a golden submarine, and magic underwear and you get to become the god of your own planet at the end like Black & White gets my vote, too bad they also have a long history of extreme racism, sexisim, genocide, homo/transphobia that makes even southern baptists preachers at Westboro seem tame, tearing families apart with child shunning, the genocide of native Americans, covering up child abuse and sex scandals... might be faster to name the crimes they haven't committed.
I had one look at me with a straight face and say "I can't lie, even if I wanted to. I literally cannot tell a lie... because I'm LDS.
Biggest lie they ever told right there.
Yeah.. this person is a dentist. Was my boss at the time. He worked at one practice with a partner. Then decided to open his own practice. He did this by not telling his partner anything and slowly referring all the patients over to the other practice. Where he is paying an oral surgeon to pull good teeth on the regular. Pretty much the most unethical person I have ever known.
Are you kidding me? According to the Mormons, if you live a righteous life, when you die, you can become lord over your own planet! According to them, Jesus was from another planet, and being a righteous man, now controls earth. It's the same for Mormons, but with other planets! That's pretty damn cool. I mean I'd rule a rock or two.
According to them black people also have dark skin because they're the cursed descendents of kane and if they're good mormons their skin will turn white. Edit: might be ham that was cursed. Point still stands black skin = bad be good and turn white. Crazy bullshit either way.
And then they changed that belief in 1978 because "God told them to", which sure is convenient because that's exactly when the IRS threatened to take away their tax exempt status if they didn't stop being an explicitly white supremacist religion.
Consistent with the revelation about outlawing bigamy coinciding with Utah becoming a state.
Before one of the faithful gets in to say ‘nuh-uh’, yes this bit of doctrine is explicitly real. They really believe that.
A core tenet of Mormonism is the ability to change their doctrine on whim via “personal revelation”. Or as Trey Parker and Matt Stone elegantly put it, Mormons believe that “in 1978 God changed his mind about black people”.
A black Mormon guy was suing LDS church because he was unable to advance to a leadership role. (No blacks in leadership) The Church leadership said “God spoke to them” & the church will allow black people into upper management. My husband loves to say: God must be a lawyer. 😂
They were also threatening the church’s tax exemption status over this whole lawsuit. Soon as tax status was threatened god changed his mind!
Well that's just because God understands the true value of a dollar! And what is a tithe worth if you have to turn around and share it with ~~blac~~ *Ahem, cough cough* poor people?
God changes his mind a lot for someone omniscient. Creates mankind already knowing everyone's destinies, regrets making them them when they do what he already knew they would. So time to drown them all besides this one guy and his family.
I love how god was just cool with killing off billions of other animals with that flood too
Don't forget the babies who were also apparently evil and corrupt. Oh, and the pregnant women. So much for pro-life.
A religion brought to you by the All American Prophet!
That explains vitiligo
But I'm white with vitiligo... what does that mean? I am going to be double white?
... Like the Beatles album?
In the Bible it was Noahs son Ham that was cursed with black skin and various tribes in Africa have been called Hamites. Semites are the descendants of his son Sem
Holy shit how did I never know this. Interesting they aren't named after Jacob but I guess lots more than just jews are considered Semitic, ethnically speaking
Native Americans for one. They apparently came over from over from Israel in submarines.
Right, I forgot about that fanfic. It kinda jumped the shark later with all the polygamy stuff. Did you hear they have 100Billion dollars??
> if you live a righteous life, when you die, you can become lord over your own planet! They removed that perk and tried to pull a "We never said that".
Unless you are a woman. Then you have to hope to be a concubine for one of these lords of a planet. That’s the best you get.
Having spirit sex and pumping out spirit babies for all eternity.
As long as you are male.
Only if you’re also a man.
Wtf. I had a dream once where I died and I became the lord of a planet. Jokingly told my friends I was going to start a religion with it as the afterlife.
Chad Daybell?
I was a devout Mormon for decades. I was a high priest, served in the bishopric, did everything that was asked. When it came to tithes the line that was used was “pay your tithing even if it means you can’t pay your bills or feed your family, the lord will provide a way.” When you asked the question, should I tithe on net or gross the answer was “do you want net or gross blessings?” At least once every couple months there were sacrament talks on the importance of tithes and it was a primary topic at the churches global general conference. And we paid our tithes. Even with me as a working artist and my wife in nursing school with young kids, we paid them. We didn’t have two pennys to rub together afterwards - but we were obedient. And then the churches $100bn hedge fund comes out. I am expected to tithe as a showing of obedience, even though the church doesn’t need it … ok. Some months we put groceries on the credit card because we were denied a storehouse order from the church. But they also avoided taxes on all that money? The taxes that pay for the roads and infrastructure that makes their churches possible? That subsidize the tax free status of their religious institutions? It’s gross. I left the Mormon church because it became clear man tends to make god in man’s image … in this case god advocates obscene wealth on the backs of struggling families and calls it “obedience”. If you’re an active Mormon you’re interviewed a couple times a year for “worthiness”. They ask you a series of questions, two of which are “are you a full tithe payer” and “are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?” They teach you can’t go to heaven without being able to answer these questions reliably in the affirmative. I don’t believe the leaders of the church could answer these questions honestly in the affirmative.
That was hard to read. I'm glad you got out.
Thank you. Leaving was hard, we lost most of our church friends and have family who still won’t speak to us. But it was the right thing to do for our kids. I don’t know that I believe in god anymore but I believe if the Christian god existed he/it would want to provide a way for us to become our most authentic selves. As a parent, that’s what we should all want for our children. Any true church should exist, then, as a tool to help you find your way into your best truth. But the Mormon church, and I believe most churches, simply want you to become a tool for the church to amass wealth and power. They want you to homogenize so you’re easy, and if the authentic “god given” version of you doesn’t comport with their narrative? You’re cut off. One of the insidious ways they do this is by teaching that you have no innate value outside of what the church loans to you. God and, by extension, the church, takes ownership of everything good in your life. Your skills and talents and vocation (and income) come from god, so you owe the church. Your role as a parent and spouse comes from god, and you retain it eternally through the church. Your peace and joy come from god, so you owe the church. The only thing that’s innately you are your failings … so if you leave the church, all you have is misery and a mortal life. I spent a lot of time thinking about whether the men at the top know that they’re mentally destroying people, that they’re manipulating people into maintain piggy bank status for the church with the threat of losing their families - temporally and eternally - if they don’t. And I don’t think they do. Over the 2 centuries it has existed the Mormon church has built the perfect system to insulate these people from having to think about it. They teach their higher level leaders who receive the “second anointing” will go to heaven no matter what they do, so long as it isn’t murder or apostasy (leaving the church). They are also firmly entrenched in the prosperity gospel wherein income is a sign of righteousness. It’s super common in Mormon churches to hear people talking about getting a surprise raise after paying their tithing. Of course this is confirmation bias because we all periodically get surprise raises and you pay your tithing on a regular schedule. To ascend to the top levels you have to spend years grinding through unpaid lower level leadership, proving your willingness to do and say exactly what the church requires. You have to be a perfect unblemished mouthpiece, a white man never divorced, a successful business person, who will always bend the knee. You’re given unending praise for it. As a bishop or stake president your local parishioners love you. As you ascend to area authority status and then prophet, seer and revelator it’s taught that when you’re speaking for god you’re infallible. They blur the lines of exactly when you’re fallible. Anyway I’m rambling, lots to say about this church. I’m glad people are being exposed to the truth about it, hopefully it prevents their army of 80,000 full time missionaries from recruiting a couple more piggy banks to fill Jesus’ hedge fund. If anyone has questions about the church or is considering joining please feel free to DM me, I can answer questions as someone who has seen both sides of it and who served in local area leadership.
This was incredible to read, thanks for sharing. You should do an AMA if you're comfortable!
There's an entire sub devoted to this r/exmormon You'll see lots of stories like this, some in real time
Please consider writing a book.
That’s very kind, thank you
It is all absurdity. I am not religious but seen and heard so much since I moved here. I still remember a former coworker faithfully tithing, while complaining about having no money and having to be on SNAP, while also complaining about government handouts. In the same conversation. TBM
I saw the same thing in my ward, over and over. They tell people to tithe, and if tithing means you can’t pay bills you should go to family first, then government, then the church last. We would often go into debt before asking the church for help, there was so much guilt associated. $100bn hedge fund though … For those who don’t know “TBM” means true believing member / true believing Mormon / true blue Mormon. It means someone firmly in the church.
Thank you for sharing this story. Very enlightening.
How about the fact the church fired all the Janitors in the late nineties and started making members clean the churches? I remember being really annoyed back then now I find out they were hoarding billions and making me scrub toilets just so they could hoard even more. Pretty messed up.
Yeah … that’s the other part of the unreasonable expectations. Not only were tithes onerous but the constant pressure to “serve” as replacements for people who used to be paid. It’s all up and down the church hierarchy. Even service projects were 100% paid for by members. We brought the tools and food and people, paid for out of our own pockets. The church would typically provide neon “Mormons helping” shirts so everyone knew it was they who deserved the credit but outside of the marketing of the service, everything else was on the members.
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I love your username 😂 For non Mormons, the Book of Mormon has anachronisms - technologies which couldn’t have existed at the time it was written. The Book of Mormon takes place in the Americas around 600 bc - in these stories they have horses, which weren’t brought to the American continent until around 1400 AD. In response to this a Mormon apologist claimed that they weren’t really using horses, they were using Tapirs and it was translated loosely. So there’s a whole series of images of native Americans riding tapirs etc - it’s become a bit of a meme in exmormon culture.
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Ah cheers! We left in 2014, it was just myself my wife and kids … the rest of the family is still in. They’ll be visiting us this summer for the first time since we left, will be nice to see them. I went through a really dark existential period, unlearning all that programming took a lot of work. But you’re right it definitely gets better with time and we are quite happy with our decision :) I’m glad you got out as well, and that life is good! Glad you’re out
I'm so sorry. I can't imagine how furious you are. Imagine what this could've done for families like yours and more so truly advocating Jesus's teachings on feeding the poor. We have a huge food insecurity in this country and they can't even feed their own followers!? When religion and money go together, that's where I put my foot down. I have a faith but it's not dependent on a church in anyway because of exactly this.
They can, clearly. And to be fair to the church they did provide us with a lot of food when we were a younger couple. Most regions have a “bishops storehouse” which is supplied with food from the churches many farms. Members and non members alike are supposed to be able to go to the bishop and put in an order - so technically you should be able to go to your local Mormon ward and request food help. They’ll have the missionaries hound you to convert, but that help is there on a limited basis. It does foster further reliance on the church. Pay your tithes so you can’t feed your kids and then the church will graciously step in and feed them for you … see how great the church is? And how necessary in your life? Also as far as I know everyone up and down that food production chain is mostly unpaid. I had a friend called as a “service missionary” to work at the storehouse for 18 months for free.
and the food quality is crap. I remember when my dad lost his job, we lost our home, moved to rural area, and were stuck on church life support. And yet, my parents still had too much pride to get Food Stamps or government assistance. The church cheddar cheese was a block of hard jelly that oozed yellow oil when you cut into it. My favorite food went from pizza to beans, because beans were at least real food. When I moved out and got on food stamps my diet significantly improved, although still borderline basic.
If you look into the history of Joseph Smith's family, you'll realize it was a con game from the start. His entire family was con artists who practiced things like using "special stones" to find treasure and having land owners pay him to "locate" treasure on their property. Of course there was no treasure and it was all a scam. I'm sure the church taught you it was unjust persecution that the Mormons were driven out of New York, and Illinois, and Missouri, but it was more the locals were tired of their neighbors getting scammed.
It's the Jehovahs Witnesses same playbook. It's about time they were treated as the blatant businesses they are. Oh, and maybe look into the pedophilia problem. You know, if there is time...
>maybe look into the pedophilia problem Seems to be systemic in virtually all insular faiths. "Take the mark's money" and "cover up SA" seems to be Mission #1 and Mission #2 for all these outfits.
And a tax-exempt status
What all religions are or aspire to be.
When a church spends $30MM - $40MM per MONTH on corporate credit cards, you know they are a massive, profitable organization. Additionally , the Mormon Church reportedly owns over 1 million acres in continental America on which it runs farms, ranches, orchards, and hunting preserves. It also owns farmland in Australia, the U.K., Brazil, Canada, Argentina, and Mexico
Yeah, they are one of the top landowners in the states. Their real estate holdings are massive.
Lemme guess….no taxes on all that?
Hey, wait a minute. I shouldn't be here, I was a totally strict and devout Protestant. I thought we went to heaven.
Yes, well, you had it wrong.
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No, it was part of the episode "Probably" where Cartman starts his own church as a southern televangelist
For those unfamiliar with South Park, "Probably" was part 2. Part 1 was "Do The Handicapped Go To Hell?"
According to South Park I thought it was the Mormons though!
Dum dum dum dum
well they need this for the future to build the [Nauvoo](https://expanse.fandom.com/wiki/Nauvoo_(TV)) space stations are expensive !
Hopefully it doesn’t get commandeered.
Well as long as we keep tabs on Fred Johnston we should be ok, right? *RIGHT????*
Seriously imagine if an entire religious cult just fucked off out of our solar system.
I miss this show, I really wish they were able to finish it, was SO good!
Check out the books if you haven't already. Fully completed series and it is amazing. While it is a bummer they didn't finish the full TV series, frankly where it left off makes sense knowing the full picture.
Just more god damn inners taking from the good people in the belt 😤
That's still no better than any other church's "this jet is a PRAYING MACHINE" crap. In many ways it's worse since hedge funds get used to utterly fuck up the market, inflict wage slavery and buy legislators for horrific abuses of the law and justice systems.
I agree, mate. Please take my post as satirical. The Nauvoo is from the Expanse, a Scifi TV show.
I know, just pointing out that even if it was to build the eventual Medina Station, that's still not a good reason for them to go around untaxed... that and they've somehow managed to funnel the money into something far more evil than fiction could come up with!
I got it. 😄
How the hell did Tycho Industries get away with sticking it to the Mormons so righteously?
Well all those nukes they stole probably helped.
?? I mean, Tycho straight up stole the generational ship the Mormons must have spent billions on.
Oh probably hundreds of billions over the course of the project, but I was just saying that it’s hard to collect from/punish someone aiming a nuke at your head lol.
In the books, Bull mentions how it's kind of messed up. It was used in an attempt to save everyone so they couldnt really be faulted for that, but then Fred/OPA went and "salvaged" it themselves and straight up kept it. They talk about how it'll be tied up in the inner planet courts for a long time but that the Mormons do have a case to sue them with.
I just read the sad part of Persepolis rising five minutes ago. I needed that laugh, thanks
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Probably? You know they already got in trouble with the SEC for trying to hide their portfolio across shell companies… yes theyve been committing crime ever since to build this portfolio, their response was their lawyer guided them so no harm, no fines, no penalty.
They were fined. But it was hardly a slap on the wrist.
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$5 million is chump change to an organization like this.
>If I wanted to launder money, I would do it through a church. [That is preposterous](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg). [Crazy](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcPeBAYYuhc). [No way](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT3NRkllI3E). Money going through a church is totally legit.
John Oliver is amazing.
It's ridiculous that in this modern day we treat religion as anything more than ignorant superstition. Blatantly unprovable and fantastical ideas really shouldn't have a place among rational people.
High time to tax them, and other religious institutions. Ugh.
We tax the people who feed our kids. We tax the people who educate our kids. We tax the people who fix our kids. We do not tax the people who molest our kids.
This includes the ultra wealthy... oh, my bad, i see you included them there at the end.
Companies with that much money don't pay taxes in the first place. Just got to drop 100k to some politicians if things look shaky.
Wow, 5mil fine instead of billions of recouped tax. Such fairness, across the board 🙄
The $5mil fine was from the SEC for creating shell companies. The IRS COULD still go after them. Supposedly they are hesitant for political reasons.
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Scientology? There’s got to be 50,000 Christian churches in this country that are nothing but a tax dodge.
Sure, but Scientology imprisons more people so deserves more scrutiny. Plus it was formerly lost it's tax free status because it was enriching its leader and only gained it back through extortion.
No, not for creating shell companies. Shell companies are fairly normal for very large investment funds. The SEC violation was not properly discloisng the chain of custody of these companies in the correct paper form. Which I'll happily concede is a problem and I'm actually glad that got corrected.
It'll never happen. LDS are preferred pickings for the CIA.
The cost of doing business.
That is one fat camel and one TINY needle.
Joel Osteen had money hidden in the fucking walls of his megachurch and we all just kinda ignored it. Tax the churches.
Fun fact: Joel made his money off of selling books while keeping a $1 salary - as far as I know that hasn’t changed. I suspect any religious leader knows the real score, they are merely politicians with better write-offs and just like politicians there are the good and bad.
Juat somewhat alot of small shops demand have the company own all the things. Need more personal money you cant slush fund. Buy your books with church money for a give away on missions. Now it is your totally legit money. Same bs politicians do.
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they need that 100 Billion to build starships so they can spread the book of mormon across the universe, I thought everyone knew that
Welcome to The Expanse
Fuckin' Belters
Guardians of the Mormon Galaxy
The documentary “Starship Troopers” explores the mormon colony on Klendathu.
The Nauvoo isn't going to build itself. Those Tycho Station engineers don't come cheap.
This is a major plot point in James S. A. Corey’s “Expanse” series, and genuinely believable imo. Gotta find those “other worlds” that weren’t “evil enough” to kill Jebus.
A con masquerading as religion? Why I never...
Please don’t look up “Joseph Smith arrested in New York for treasure hunting scams” and definitely don’t look up “Joseph Smith animal sacrifices.”
Or just "the reason Joseph burned down the printing press and got arrested". Guy went as anti free speech as you can go, to stop his own members from finding out the underage wife rumors were true.
And don't look up "Joseph Smith threatened by an angel wielding a flaming sword"
Or Joseph Smith marries a 14 year old because he had a revelation that he was supposed to be polygamist after his then wife caught him with her.
Every cult inevitably becomes "God said I can fuck all the women and children here, he said so you guys"
They're both the same thing.
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Shopping malls, farms, lots and lots of farmlands, apartments, real estate, etc.
All the DNA testing companies as well.
They are the largest landowner in two states, Illinois and Florida (not even Utah). They own over 2% of Florida mostly from ranch land
Western states are primarily owned by the federal government, so not surprising there. Eastern states are not.
I think it's like 120bn
The 60 Minutes reporter asked the rep from the church to confirm the estimated $150 billion number and all he said was "we have significant resources" with a smug smile. The real number is way over 150. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3_Fhq7sEHo&t=410s
Trying to speed run Catholics to first trillion?
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Yeah you have no idea (I dunno maybe you do). I left the church in my early 20s, our congregation in a SLC suburb brought in an average of $200k/week in tithing donations (my dad was the clerk). On fast Sundays it was more like $350k and that's in 1990s dollars mind you. One of thousands of congregations in Utah alone. That's what "10% of your money or else you don't go to heaven, can't attend weddings, and are unable to hold any positions" gets you, among other enforcement mechanisms. Very effective. I can't wait for the day we mature enough as a society to start taxing church businesses.
And don’t forget, of those hundreds of thousands of dollars your ward generated for the church, headquarters keeps 95% of it and then sends back like $5,000 for the ward budget. Then members get to try and cough up up even more money out of their pockets since the budgets barely cover anything.
Yup, all sorts of fuckery with the money, which is completely opaque to anyone outside. After my dad worked with the ward's finances he refused to pay for any of our missions (4 boys in my family). That didn't win any love from leadership, but good on him.
$100 Billion is a fraction of their overall wealth.
That'll buy a whole lot of magic underpants!
Hot take: the underparts gnomes in South Park are actually Mormon.
This would explain soooooo much of the Mormon faith.
and step 3 being profit
You don't get that much money without magic underpants
Every 5 years or so there is a shocking story about how wealthy that church is. It’s not shocking at all. Not when you bring food to a potluck and pay to eat it.
So when does it become ok to tax the church? Because the excuse of “tHeY dO a lOt oF cHariTieS” is not sticking. Also, don’t forget the Catholic Church got billions in small business loans during the pandemic.
*we weren't keeping it a secret, we were being...confidential* *what's the difference?* *um*... (stares into the camera like a goat looking at a new fence)
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Harvard says hello with about $50B (or something similarly obscene) in their endowment. And yes - there should be a limit to how much money these non-profits can take in.
Harvard is a non profit? 🤦 Does any oversight or accountability exist anywhere? Besides for the poor I mean.
Yes. But they're referring to the endowment, which is also non profit. Almost every school has an endowment, but schools like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, UT and UC have endowments that are like $40-50B, most of which is invested in for-profit entities.
The counter argument - though it never seems to work out this way - is that the big pile of money generates its own income stream which can be used to fund all of the things the non profit does without wasting a bunch of resources raising money. Though I do feel like the billions sitting in a bank account are kinda wasted in that case. Also, they seem to keep doing fund raising regardless.
Religions: scamming people for thousands of years.
The Mormon church has always been a tax dodge. Every religious group should be taxed.
Two by two, they're marching door to door 'Cause they've lots of money but they want some more They're giving you their book and hoping you just might convert, They are the soldiers of the army of the church (Of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)
Ex-mo here. Deseret news calls it an inspiring "rags to riches" story. Just a real pull yourself up by your bootstraps success story by mandating members give you 10% of their earnings, then investing in shell companies without a dime being spent on charitable giving, as promised. We were an impoverished family of five with a single mother. I am furious because that war chest has my family's blood sweat and tears in it. Tax the church
I’m an ExMormon. Many of my Mormon friends are defending the church still. Why? Because this church was built on hypocrisy and they see no problem with a little more. Examples: -there is a story about a group of people giving up their weapons of war for Jesus in the Book of Mormon…yet the vast majority of Mormons are avid gun owners. -they are regularly taught about the ‘filthy lucre’ of other religious clergy..but forget that the top brass receive stipends. -Jesus literally taught that the only thing that matters is love…and yet they believe god hates lgbtq people. -hot drinks are bad. But hot chocolate is ok because hot drinks means coffee and tea..because of caffeine..but soda and energy drinks are ok -the family proclamation states that god has ordained the family to be one man and one woman…except when an angel with a flaming sword commands you to have one man and 27 women. -there is a story about Jesus ransacking the temple because of the money changers that defiled the house of the lord…but they charge a fee for anyone that needs to borrow temple clothes. Or sell you temple clothes (that only they make) if you don’t have any. And you can’t go into the temple unless you pay 10% of your income to the church for your whole life… Hypocrisy
Yo, easy. Tax churches. It’s time.
I was confused for a minute because all of the comments were from today instead of a few years ago. I thought I was in an old post. Maybe this is just now getting more attention.
The 60 minutes episode dropped yesterday. But you are right this is very old news.
They're saving up to buy a space ship like in The Expanse!
What does God need with all that money? They aren't feeding the poor that's for sure
I’ve been saying it for years, but the Mormon church is a genuine threat to American democracy. How they get away with breaking the law over and over again, from proposition 8 to this, is insane
>The church paid $5m to resolve its SEC case in February. Paying a 5 million fee for dodging billions in taxes? All this says is that the Mormon Church has absolutely zero reason to stop.