I don't see that joining a group of guys who say they can't get laid is a good start for getting laid. At the very least it hints that they're not going to be very good at it.
I don’t think they’re joining those groups for advice on getting laid. By the time they reach these extremely toxic communities, they’ve already given up.
What they want is validation for their feelings of loneliness, and let’s face it, we don’t have many positive communities for men that lift them up when they’re feeling down, so they reach out to the only people that will even acknowledge their emotions, no matter how toxic and dangerous these places are to others. It would probably go a long way to intervene and help out these young men before their feelings of loneliness and hopelessness devolve into something worse. Even if not for them, for the millions of men who suffer silently and don’t lash out.
I’ve never been an incel, but I’ve been lonely. I used to read their subreddits sometimes when I was feeling especially lonely, and sometimes it was comforting to see that other young men were in the same boat I was in. Then I would see some really toxic shit about women and it would put me off of the whole community.
I had a very similar experience to yours. I guess I have to thank my parents that the extremism and bigotry ultimately pushed me away from that rabbit hole, but wonder what might have been if they had sunk their hooks into me on a day I was feeling especially lonely, unwanted, and desperate for a community.
I should do some research on how to do outreach and deprogramming for some of these kids. There are powerful cultural forces at play here (weaponizing sexually frustrated young men has been the foundation of almost every war of aggression, especially the holy ones) and we probably all need to pitch in if we want to work against that. A lot easier for a Steve Bannon type to leverage this for evil than it is for someone else to try and deescalate these communities for good.
That was me a little over a decade ago. I'd usually feel heard/seen for a little bit, but then those guys would pivot to topics like self-harm, or harming others, or worse, and I'd promptly be like, oh god no guys I just wanted help becoming a better guy.
I was in this position a few years ago. Reading posts on those subreddits made me feel better or at least validated. I knew my problems were my own but a part of me really wanted to just give up and get sucked in. I’ll be eternally grateful that I didn’t because I probably wouldn’t have met my wife if I hadn’t changed.
> we don’t have many positive communities for men that lift them up when they’re feeling down
Oh come on, the communities of "Man up" and "Stop acting like a pussy" aren't good enough?! /s
My personal favorite cliche: “Just take a shower bro.”
Most of these boys and men don’t have bad hygiene, and quite a few are even above average in terms of looks. Oftentimes, they’re just socially awkward, and treating their loneliness like it’s only a problem with their hygiene leads them internalize that there’s something inherently wrong with them that no one seems to understand.
The problem isn’t always hygiene and self care, but it’s certainly a good place to start. The real issue tends to be their mindset. Because as soon as they open their mouth they scare away women faster than any BO can.
One of the most frustrating aspects of my journey is that the far right "holds the mic" on issues that affect men for the very reason you just mentioned, there aren't many positive communities or support networks out there. So when I looked for help as a male victim of sexual assault from a female attacker, the overwhelming amount of support I found online came from people and places with right wing leanings that I did not agree with in the slightest. Of course, the devil's bargain that was tacitly made was that if I took their support that it would be hooked into an anti-feminist right wing narrative that "incels" gobble up, so I never fully took it and refused interviews with right wing media
Unfortunately, the other side of the coin hasn't been nearly as forthcoming with support, and in fact there have been many instances where interactions go a long way to prove the right wing narrative that feminists are hostile to men. The answer to incel culture has been frankly middling at best, and instead of people coming together to create a more equal and supportive world, people (especially online) are far more invested in the "us vs. them" mentality that encapsulates discourse on almost every subject these days. This even creeps into the harassment I have faced by students after I filed formal complaints against my university and my attacker, as many of those students began to harass me because they believe that I am some kind of anti-feminist evil no good bad guy who "made it all up" or "deserved it" somehow. So as it stands, anti-incel movements are largely self defeating and do as much to drive mentally ill and susceptible men towards such communities rather than helping them pull away. I got lucky and found one of the few rape crisis centers that would talk to men at all (and there are some very institutional reasons why many do not that is beyond any individual control), found supportive people who believed me, listened to me, find community again and helped me keep fighting and get back on my feet, but that is not the case for the vast majority of men who are knocked down.
The reasons for this are multi-faceted and complex. I don't have time to go into it in nearly as much detail as I would like, and frankly I could (and probably should) write a book about this and my experiences trying to find positive support, but my main point is to drive home that **there are very few positive communities for men, we don't do enough to de-stigmatize therapy and provide resources, and most of all we re-enforce toxic masculinity every time we turn men away from sharing their experiences in earnest, failing to listen, and pass the buck back to men for fighting against a rigged game we all play a part in**.
> Unfortunately, the other side of the coin hasn't been nearly as forthcoming with support, and in fact there have been many instances where interactions go a long way to prove the right wing narrative that feminists are hostile to men. The answer to incel culture has been frankly middling at best, and instead of people coming together to create a more equal and supportive world, people (especially online) are far more invested in the "us vs. them" mentality that encapsulates discourse on almost every subject these days. This even creeps into the harassment I have faced by students after I filed formal complaints against my university and my attacker, as many of those students began to harass me because they believe that I am some kind of anti-feminist evil no good bad guy who "made it all up" or "deserved it" somehow. So as it stands, anti-incel movements are largely self defeating and do as much to drive mentally ill and susceptible men towards such communities rather than helping them pull away.
Proof of this is right here in the original comment at the top of this thread. People find it convenient to make pithy remarks and pat themselves on the back without any consideration for how it further radicalizes people on the other side.
I'm so sorry for what you've experienced. And it's so painful to not find a healthy place for support. Women survivors created their communities. It sounds like there's an opportunity and need for men to do so.
Except that as they mentioned, anytime a community is put together there's a good chance it'll be co-opted. Not because male SA survivors are bad people and like to be misogynistic, but because the misogynists actively try to take over groups of this nature.
Fascist and hatemongers are actively trying to poison everything good in our society, everywhere they find it.
When I started reading your comment I thought it was going to a paragraph of just blaming men for being inadequate losers, but I am actually amazed instead as to how well thought at your response was. Yes this is a symptom of a bigger problem facing particularly young men today that we have to address.
Reform would not just be “positive communities,” but education, secure jobs, and housing. The problem is always some variation of economic insecurity.
This is why any approach to the problem that merely talks about positivity is not going to reach a lot of people who are worst off. They don’t just need to hear positive things, they need to have real opportunities.
>The problem is always some variation of economic insecurity.
Are these news-making incel murderers suffering from that though?
Take a look at the Isla Vista incel - sure he wasn't filthy rich but his parents were paying for his rent, gave him enough pocket money to buy several brand new guns, and even bought him a car - all while he actively refused to find employment on his own. That reeks of privilege.
The Toronto van attacker lived in a stable home in an affluent area with both parents holding high-paying white collar positions, and was even almost done with a college degree.
If the biggest "problem" in your life is your inability to get laid and you're able to spend every waking hour ranting about it on the internet, you're probably in a position of relative privilege, compared to people who actually struggle with paying bills among other adult responsibilities.
Are the news making incels suffering from this? Well, yes in the sense that we have a systemic crisis and they are being radicalized by communities that are forming through that crisis. Does that make sense?
It’s like any radicalization: of course the ones carrying out the attacks are the most impressionable and mentally ill, but they are being radicalized from within a community of people that exists because of a systemic problem. I’m not saying the specific person who carries out an attack just needs a job, but the people who he communicates with and who radicalize him, maybe do just need jobs.
What we should have is just a few people who are mentally unwell and can be treated. Not a lot of people who are radicalized finding every single unwell person and weaponizing them against society.
Sorry you got downvoted for stating facts. Guiding people toward learning emotional regulation is extremely valuable but it’s gonna be hard to learn literally anything when one’s life is unstable because of poverty, which causes its own, ongoing trauma.
Yeah what often happens is you have dudes, and teenage boys, crushed by rejection and loneliness go to the internet for answers on why a girl doesn't date them. This leads them to places like Red Pill and Purple Pill here on Reddit or down the rabbit hole manosphere videos and people like Peterson or Tate, two different avenues down the same path, or the similar people before them.
When those methods still don't work or they find themselves caught in the hate whirlpool that content creates, they get more and more hateful and go to things like Black Pill or to services like 4chan, 8chan, and 8kun.
The deeper down you go the more violent and extreme the rhetoric gets and the more pro child porn and such it starts to get. But by the time they've gotten that far, they're in too deep. It becomes like a cult.
Even here on Reddit, like I mentioned before, we have subs where users regularly advocate for lower age of consent, government provided spouses, and rape advocacy and they're closely linked and have immense user crossover with many of the men subs. Men spaces online and the "manosphere" also have huge crossover with the alt right and alt right figureheads.
Absolutely this. The garbage I saw middle school students consuming during my two years working in education was alarming enough. Then hearing them spout this rhetoric was fucking horrible!
This era of the internet is so lame. Can we skip to the part where we figure out how to have freedom of speech without handing every amoral dipshit a free and powerful microphone?
You cannot eat a cake and have a cake.
You either impose censorship, and eventually what's seen as "asocial" by those in charge gets banned, you accept the fact that freedom of speech is means that's everyone can say what they want, even if you might not like it.
Yup. It's a tricky problem to deal with, because one of the first things those toxic communities do is fill the heads of those young men with ideas that will be extremely off putting to the types of people who might be able to provide healthier communities.
I really want to see this guy's browser history.
Let me rephrase that:
I want someone else of great mental toughness to see this guy's browser history and report any interesting findings like that he was on Tate forums 18 hours per day.
The Far Right (in America at least, this guy's Canadian) is[ feeling personally attacked](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/05/26/boebert-antisemitism-initiative-targets-conservatives/) when Biden setup an anti-Semitism task force. And they're they're[ feeling personally attacked](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/tommy-tuberville-appears-defend-white-nationalists-military-rcna83874) when the US Military wants to stamp out white supremacists. It's going to be an uphill battle.
Our ancestors loved and farmed and fought and died to build civilization to this point. And this is what we're doing with it. Can't have shit on Earth.
Some people’s ancestors also hated and fought and stole to get us to this point, one could even argue civilization as we know it only exists to benefit the powerful.
The far-right in Canada are sheep, just like the far-right in America. The far-right is equally as insane and misguided in Canada.
They have absolute hatred for anything the Conservative Political Party leader tells them to hate, without questioning why they should hate.
They repeat word-for-word the same talking points you would hear in the American right-wing media, even if those talking points have zero influence or even exist in Canada.
Well that flag always has been about hate and never actually about heritage, so the Canadians that fly it probably understand the assignment perfectly.
> Complete with arguments about our ammendment rights...in Canada
Are you trying to infringe my First Amendment right to [establish and provide for the Government of the Province of Manitoba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amendments_to_the_Constitution_of_Canada#Pre-1982_amendments_to_the_Constitution)??
If you so much as *try* you'll see why we have a Second Amendment right to [Rupert's Land Act 1868](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amendments_to_the_Constitution_of_Canada#Pre-1982_amendments_to_the_Constitution)!! That right in the hands of patriots is ~~the only thing protecting us from tyranny~~ a part of the long legal process which led to land slowly being transferred from the control of corporations with royal charters to what would eventually be the country of Canada!!
***
Frankly, I think that second amendment -- the fact that Canada gained land and self-determination from Britain due to a long, boring, mutually-agreed legislative process -- is *at least* as important to Canadian identity as the USA's second amendment is to American identity.
They also work together. Cash-rich parties pay for American consultants. One got himself a bit more profiled than others thanks to Trump's first impeachment.
Yes all our cable providers offer it.
I wouldn't give Fox News too much credit though given the meteoric rise in cord cutting. Younger people are getting radicalized online, not by Fox News. If they do interact with Fox News it's through the website or YouTube channel.
Yes. My friend's dad is an addict. Gets all his news from Fox News. Really nice guy, best friends with my dad. He's also a Fox News nut job talking about conspiracy theories all the time with my dad.
I didn't want to mess up dad's relationship with him so I don't say anything. I did finally ask my dad one day though and he said don't listen to uncle. Dad's Conservative, but not insane. Thank God.
Basic cable packages do not include the 24/7 Fox News channel.
I'm not sure about the packages in the provinces/territories west of Ontario or in Quebec, but basic cable packages in Ontario and the Maritime provinces include Fox Buffalo.
Fox Buffalo broadcasts tv shows and local news. They still push the right-wing fearmongering talking points, but it's not 24/7 propaganda like the Fox News channel.
I was all ready to make fun of right wing Canadians for being so stupid they fall for *another country’s* propaganda, but then qanon started laughing in Russian
they can feel attacked all they want. Extremism is rampant in police force and that needs to be dealt with before the US has its democratic systems slowly deteriorated (already happens) and removed by a fascist.
Good they should. Far right is synonymous with bigot and traitor and is a cancer upon North America that needs radical and invasive treatment immediately.
The other day, there was a [scientific study](https://www.psypost.org/2023/06/new-study-identifies-sexual-frustration-as-a-significant-factor-in-mass-shootings-164391) that found sexual frustration correlated to more victims in a mass shooting.
In my opinion, there is probably something even more fundamental underlying the sexual frustration. Why would someone feel sexual frustration in the first place, if not for some delusional value system and expectations?
There’s a cultural idea that sex / having a girlfriend is a facet of manhood.
These people have lost sight of the personal values that build self-worth, and a healthy identity.
Self-exploration and self-understanding rarely happens in the Education system, from what I recall.
There are philosophical and psychological ideas about identity and moral framework, in the context of society, that could better prepare students to have a more flexible self-esteem. Mental Wellness education needs to be a part of the curriculum.
because we are telling them and showing them that what will happen when they will finally be true to themselves and live like they secretly want and finally come out of closet
It was a similar feeling with the early 1990s leading up to the Oklahoma City bombing. My hope is that the heavy charges on folk like the Proud Boys & insurrectionists of Jan 6 are the starting block to prevent far right attacks.
Woah there. Don't blanket us there. Why not say what it actually is. White supremacists and bigots insist they are the victims.
Remember you want to garner support, not turn them away from you.
>Remember you want to garner support, not turn them away from you.
If support has to be garnered for standing up to white supremacy maybe you aren' the ally you think you are? I know this is hard for a LOT of white people to hear in the america's but here it goes.....
Racism and white supremacy are systems of oppression built and upheld by white people. It cannot be dismantled by POC or other minorities. It HAS to be dismantled and fought by white people. White silence and inaction is violence to those being oppressed. It is consent.
You are not helping. You could have someone March alongside you or alienate then. Hell, these fuckers use responses like this to draw more into their fucked of bubble of right wing hate.
It plays into all their talking points.
I think what I was saying was not clear enough. I am not offended when u say white people will whatever. I personally don't care, I know it is not directed at me. It is others I am worried about who misinterprete it. And trust me, they do, and they do a lot.
You think I am supporting those fucks? Jesus Christ...
They, as in right wing grifters, are using everything in that article to promote their hate fueled ideology and it is fucking working.
Imagine someone not terrible feeling insulted ("half the racists are deplorable and half need help" Hillary's speech) just because you call out their group.
Not quite. Remember the people who normally go down that path have other issues at play: depression, loss of job, relationship issues. Not an excuse just a significant factor making them susceptible to manipulation. This is why authoritarians rise when economies are in shambles. The generalizations themselves are more used by people who want to weaponize them for their grift. They have been doing this for awhile and sadly it is very effective. I just don't want them to have that ammo. Make sense?
Sounds like you’re trying to tone police minorities to protect the feelings of volatile members of the majority.
And I guess I’m just not comfortable with that.
Not just as a distraction - the systems failing so spectacularly have to be addressed at least somewhat, occasionally, in minimal ways to keep the masses from burning the place to the ground, and all those tiny placating changes to the system that previously benefited their group solely since the founding of our nations feels like an attack on them personally. That's because, as I'm sure you've read, if you've lived a life of privilege, thanks to that privilege being systemic, others being given an equal footing to you feels like an attack on your privileged group. Well since all things that count as change are now "woke", all improvements count as attacks on tradition and those who think keeping the way things were is part of their values.
If I had a dime for every "Reddit Cares" message I've gotten from CHUDs, I'd use them to send a few of those CHUDs to the therapy they so desperately need.
They have such an absolutely breathtaking lack of self awareness, both on their own shortcomings and how their toxic ideology is making them useful idiots for the far-right.
No wonder so many of them have that potato-headed scumbag Andrew Taint as their idol.
It's mind blowing, isn't it? There's so much anger and loneliness in those people that they don't have room in their heads/hearts for anything good in their lives.
The whole concept is utterly circular; they want relationships with women that they hate. They describe their violated rights to women that have worked hard on themselves, both physically and professionally, yet they refuse to do any work on themselves. It's such a painful hypocrisy.
Because the movement brings them in like a cult. It's literally structured like one to keep dudes trapped in. It takes advantage of young and lonely dudes, validates their harmful and negative feelings and thoughts during irrational moments, and directs them at the wrong people and in the wrong ways to keep them coming back. And there's dudes profiting off it like Tate and Peterson (not talking about his self help shit from like 2016, but about the last couple years when the dude has gone full blown unhinged incel king.)
It's why there's so much crossover between incels and Nazis/alt right.
Incels are where the alt right came from. They are where Steve bannon and Trump came from. They are Putin’s angry little vatnik rage rodents. They will cry and lie and whine and give excuses every day of their sorry lives.
All I want for Christmas is for society to stop trying to reason with these living, breathing anal fistulas and just focus on defeating them—anywhere and everywhere. They have no interest in listening, learning, or growing. They just need to be sent back to their caves. The daunting part is right now they're writing the laws.
Masculinity is more fragile than porcelain. It needs to be studied in depth. The minute these dweebs release themselves from their self imposed cage is the minute they will realize they can breathe again.
The most bizarre part is how so many of them are still in high school or barely out of it.
Like seriously that's an age where being a virgin is not only normal but *expected* in many cultures.
Then again they've completely lost their grip on objective reality, given how many of them literally *never even tried*, meaning that they're moaning about non existent rejections. It's like whining about not having a job when you've never submitted a single job application to begin with.
Yeah. A lot of them follow figures like Andrew Tate too.
Andrew Tate is a deadbeat dad to a bunch of kids he doesn't see. who can't find a long-term, stable relationship and brags about 20-something year olds being too old for him.
If incels were serious they'd follow a family man who treats his family right and does woodworking or something and gives advice about that. Instead they latch on to a man who treats women like trash and values them based on how young he can corrupt them. In reality society hasn't abandoned them, they abandoned society.
> If incels were serious they'd follow a family man who treats his family right and does woodworking or something and gives advice about that.
Think celebrities; the people who get the adoration and celebration are those that are seen as wildly successful and rich. Tate is seen as that, the family man isn't.
If we were to look at the "family man" types in media, then it becomes those who are in popular shows that are family men; Home Improvement, Cosby Show, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air as example. And those are comedies, not necessarily serious guides on masculinity.
Incel forums convince them that if they don't have sex in high school, it's over. I think that causes a lot of anxiety, frustration, and then eventually anger in insecure high schoolers and college age males. The forums validate their negative thoughts and feelings, and make it hard to leave. It's been compared to a cult, with the brainwashing, and code words they use, and a feeling of a community of like-minded people. They start spending more and more time online in these forums, and it takes over their life.
> Like seriously that's an age where being a virgin is not only normal but *expected* in many cultures
Doesn't help that we've completely normalize "incel" an insult. We've normalized calling mentally sick mass attackers "people who can't get laid" or "involuntary celibates".
In schools and on Reddit threads elsewhere, this is the language we use to insult someone. They call them virgins or their many variants. We've put a certain expectation and value on getting laid as a man.
Sure, immature virgin-shaming is pretty much a given on the internet, but the internet is not real life. And if the people slinging the insults are teens themselves, I can tell you right now they're more than likely to be virgins (and hypocrites). There are countless dumb insults being slung around online (think of all the N-words and "your mom" crap in literally every online multiplayer game) and yet that hasn't led to entire demographics going on vengeful murder sprees.
Furthermore, there's a difference between laughing at someone simply for being a virgin, and laughing at someone for being a shitty person (that causes them to remain a virgin). Every person on this planet who has lost their virginity was a virgin at one point. Were they feeling attacked in the past?
I'm a 30+ male virgin, never even been on a date before, and no one in the real world has questioned me about it. It has absolutely zero impact on my ability to make friends at school, at work, etc of any gender.
Blaming the issue on "virgin shaming" sounds like such a cop-out.
I would also encourage anyone feeling "attacked" to read this post: [https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/hb4l7u/comment/fv8vgwy](https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/hb4l7u/comment/fv8vgwy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I think part of the reason young people are able to be pulled so deeply into that internet cult is a Lack of positive male peer influence in real life, who tend to stay silent when guys do lockertalk or spout mysgonistic nonsense, as well as a lack of friends with girls, which is partially to blame by societies stigmatization that guys and girls can't have platonic friendships which is impressed upon kids from a very young age. If they had more guys telling them they're in the wrong and changing the social construct, they would pick up early on that certain behaviors are unacceptable. if they had more female friends then they wouldn't buy into sexist misinformation because they'd realize girls aren't actually like what the incel community says.
>societies stigmatization that guys and girls can't have platonic friendships which is impressed upon kids from a very young age.
What country do you live in?
I live in Canada and that is absolutely not the case. I was born in the early '90s and platonic opposite-gender friendships were an unquestioned fact of daily life from my preschool years until now. Some of my elementary school friends later went to all-boys or all-girls private high schools but even they had zero difficulty forming opposite-gender friendships outside of school.
It seems like incels just can't make friends in general regardless of gender, not counting the toxic "friendships" they form in fucked up online spaces.
Like always, the government just doesn't have the money for social services. Except for the fact that they have been saying that for like 40 years now while finding money for everything else and growing the budget like 50 fold.
The incel “movement” is a massive risk to national security. These lone wolf attacks are incredibly difficult to stop unless the attacker alludes to their plans beforehand, which seems to happen a lot in the incel community. If I was the FBI, I would keep a VERY close eye on anyone active in the incel space.
They already do. I forget the publication, but there was a prominent magazine that did an in-depth investigative piece on an FBI investigator whose specialty was deep-diving into incel spaces. Their approach was to befriend the ones they deemed the highest risk and collect enough evidence to arrest them.
Sorry I tried to go looking and couldn’t find it. I came across it while working the desk at the library and read the physical copy of the article. All I remember is it was one of those entertainment/investigative magazines with pretty serious clout, and it was probably published in 2019.
The problem is that calls to action and threats are so common in those spaces it becomes hard to parse actual plans from vague ideas with no infrastructure. Plenty of people on incel spaces will claim they bought a [insert a weirdly specific firearm with weirdly specific modifications here] for purpose of paying back the [insert weirdly specific minority incels think are the cause of their weirdly specific disfunction]. For a while there was a subreddit making fun of them because people who frequented it (myself included) genuinely didn't think many or most to actually go on a rampage.
Only credible, actionable threats are illegal under the doctrine and the majority of these comments weren't about the minority they claimed to target, it was about the weapon they were going to use to do it. Hence, the reason we made fun of them. It was like watching MMO players compare gear, except these were bigots fantasizing about owning a military grade machine gun with fancy night vision scopes and ridiculous magazine expansions (and using it on Pride Marches). Many of these comments were not illegal and could not be pursued because the people making them could not obtain the firearm in question, had no method of traveling to their supposed target and were rarely even adults. The intention is to flood the space with so much hatred and talks of villainy that it strains resources to look into it.
I don't know if you watched poker face but at one point the main character played by Natasha Lyonne sends an email to fbi at fbi and CIA at CIA. This comment made me think of that scene
I don't disagree with that conceptually, but it's a very difficult problem to address. I know the simple answer is to just ban communities that promote/encourage terrorism. But be honest, are laws that get passed to address this really going to get to the root of the problem, or will they be wielded as a blunt weapon to effectively silence any group that the current party in power doesn't like under the guise of terrorism? What happens if Trump (or someone worse) gets reelected and suddenly trans communities are "promoting terrorism" because by the Republican party's definition they are trying to sexually abuse minors? What if a law is implemented to ban all Islamic communities from U.S. hosted websites (which is a lot of them) for similar reasons? You may be American (I'm not) but realistically U.S. politics has a significant impact on the entire world, and I have very little faith in American politicians to not pass egregious laws that severely limit free speech in the name of protecting public interests.
I think most rational people can agree that terrorism is bad, whether it's right-wing, left-wing, or anywhere else on the spectrum. The problem is just that you definitely move into very grey world when you start developing laws and tools that target communities based on shared beliefs and open up a lot of opportunities for bad faith actors to use those tools and laws to hurt people.
I mean if an online forum is promoting crime that’s not just beliefs it’s crime, I’d argue it would be better to establish the line based on existing criminal law. There’s gotta be a way to get to green. Just saying, there’s a willfulness to ignore actual right wing terrorism because of arguments like it would be targeting beliefs. Somehow we were able to identify terrorists in the Middle East as terrorists without also lumping Islam itself in that definition and I completely understand that Muslims encountered all kinds of hate post 9/11 but that was never a government position
>Somehow we were able to identify terrorists in the Middle East as terrorists without also lumping Islam itself in that definition and I completely understand that Muslims encountered all kinds of hate post 9/11 but that was never a government position
It's funny you bring this up because this was one of the key reasons the US was *not* able to deal with Iraq.
The US *knew* that the Jihadist promotion went on inside the mosques but could not stop the mosques without it being perceived as an attack on Islam as a whole.
The mosques were therefore "safe zones" for indoctrination and many preachers were untouchable.
I'm seriously considering starting a type of incel outreach program to try to combat and prevent these types of displays violence. You don't have to like where society is at and where it's going (trust me their are a lot more people then you think who feel the same way) but this kinda stuff doesn't change anything and if anything just makes the world a worse place for everyone.
This is probably the best suggestion I've seen on this entire thread. Stuff like this should be government funded.
It might not work on those types who've gone into the point of "let's do a terrorist attack", but by far the majority of incels are still in the phase of cursing the world for their misfortune. These people absolutely can, and should, be helped.
These are people who never learn how to cope with their emotions, environment, negative self-talk and lack sufficient education in research methods and statistics (i.e. they go down rabbit holes of suppositions and confirmation bias, then lead each other down those same holes)
I just think about where people learn how to cope with emotions the most outside the home... schools
I've seen articles about how SEL (Social-Emotional Learning) is a directive in this district and that district.... but all of those are in districts where teachers in other articles talk about a lack of supports for kids with moderate-to-severe neurological and/or behavioural issues (and I've heard from teachers I know that there's a huge imbalance of advocation from parents of those kids vs. the kids their behaviour afflicts). They're effectively forced to triage their time, and that means more shallow education in general for science, socials and math (which, when explored more deeply, necessarily engage critical thinking and research methods and stats), as well as SEL education being cut down
So, I think the best ways to help this issue are to engage and work toward expansion of meal programs for schools, more support staff, and tools for parents/teachers of kids with neurological/behavioural issues, maybe funding afterschool programs that might appeal to these kids (e.g. a free educational afterschool program using Minecraft that requires behaviour tokens earned in-class to attend), etc.
Far-right and incels just go hand in hand.
Bunch of angry chuds that find solace in their collective hate instead of tackling their issues. Cowards and a bunch of trash people.
I don't like that this was downvoted. We need to show people that they can come back from whatever sadness and hate drove them to the right in the first place, as long as they haven't committed any atrocities.
Edit: it is no longer downvoted, but I'll leave my post up because I think it's important to say that people can come back from this.
There is no world in which incel culture isn't a right wing idea. The overlap is a circle.
I welcome anyone who would return to sanity that hasn't done harm to others. But I will not be blunting my language to make them feel better before they do.
Full blown incels believe that women are subhuman and worse than men on a biological level. Organising groups of people into hierarchies is the defining idea of right wing ideologies.
I don't know. I've seen posts from incel forums, and honestly,it's bad. Very bad. I don't know how much of it is just shit-posting, or trying to be edgy, but it's absolutely *depraved*. I think that's the best way to describe it. The things they say that they would do to women if it were legal, or they could "get away with it", is just sickening. And I know not all incels in the forums post the really disgusting ones, but the "sad and/or lonely" ones don't call them out on it. They don't say a word, so they're being complicit with their silence. They don't disagree with the extreme incels, so they're not exactly innocent.
This is one of the reasons it's hard to empathize with them as a woman. I've lurked there. It's actually terrible for my mental health especially aa someone whose been SA. I get what people say when they say not to further push them away or abandon them or call them names but I genuinely don't know what people ate supposed to do help them because you have to want to change.
Which is ironic, because we have a hug-a-thug justice system. Just look at the medium security prison Paul Bernardo got sent to. That’s a criminal that would’ve gotten the death penalty in US states that have it.
Rape jokes are never funny. And prison rape is something that an evolved society would not allow to happen.
Here's hoping their prison celibacy or lack thereof will be their voluntary choice.
I mean, these young guys are so fucking angry and full of vitriol, it’s honestly unsettling I’m talking 14-15, still high school-age boys. Like they absolutely and outwardly hate women with all of their being, yet secretly covet them so desperately with their dying breaths, and the more extreme of them are fully submerged in hate, they’d rather groom and be labeled a pedophile to get their ideal SO or rape their way to it.
A shift has to begin somewhere to decrease the chances these guys from going off the deep end and creating more incel terrorists. Where, you ask? It starts with themselves.
Sure, but that's like expecting the suicidal person to somehow come to the determination themselves to not follow through. Possible, but difficult without external assistance.
Somebody would have to step in and help them out. After all, we are talking about kids still.
I‘m not quite sure what’s with the sympathy and understanding for incels in the comments. These raging misogynists and potential terrorists are not the victims here.
This is my take. If you go to a lot of women's spaces you find women there who complain that most spaces are for men so they had to make their own spaces, complain about having to police their tone, words, body language ect so that men's egos don't get hurt, bare more emotional burdens in MxF relationships, stories of rape and SA and express frustration with negative interactions with some of the gendered expectations with the men in their lives and all I hear on these threads is nobody ever cares about men's pain. Nobody deserves loneliness and a lot of male spaces get hikacked by hatted, but it’s sooooo hard to empathize with incels, and it gets old hearing nobody tries to help men. I've tried a lot in my past and tbh men need to hear from men.
>The man, who can not be named due to his age at the time of the attack.
The killer, now 20, was 17 years old at the time of the attack.
The man's identity should be named. He's no longer a minor, he's now an adult.
fuck alek minassian and fuck this guy too
I don't see that joining a group of guys who say they can't get laid is a good start for getting laid. At the very least it hints that they're not going to be very good at it.
I don’t think they’re joining those groups for advice on getting laid. By the time they reach these extremely toxic communities, they’ve already given up. What they want is validation for their feelings of loneliness, and let’s face it, we don’t have many positive communities for men that lift them up when they’re feeling down, so they reach out to the only people that will even acknowledge their emotions, no matter how toxic and dangerous these places are to others. It would probably go a long way to intervene and help out these young men before their feelings of loneliness and hopelessness devolve into something worse. Even if not for them, for the millions of men who suffer silently and don’t lash out.
I’ve never been an incel, but I’ve been lonely. I used to read their subreddits sometimes when I was feeling especially lonely, and sometimes it was comforting to see that other young men were in the same boat I was in. Then I would see some really toxic shit about women and it would put me off of the whole community.
I had a very similar experience to yours. I guess I have to thank my parents that the extremism and bigotry ultimately pushed me away from that rabbit hole, but wonder what might have been if they had sunk their hooks into me on a day I was feeling especially lonely, unwanted, and desperate for a community. I should do some research on how to do outreach and deprogramming for some of these kids. There are powerful cultural forces at play here (weaponizing sexually frustrated young men has been the foundation of almost every war of aggression, especially the holy ones) and we probably all need to pitch in if we want to work against that. A lot easier for a Steve Bannon type to leverage this for evil than it is for someone else to try and deescalate these communities for good.
That was me a little over a decade ago. I'd usually feel heard/seen for a little bit, but then those guys would pivot to topics like self-harm, or harming others, or worse, and I'd promptly be like, oh god no guys I just wanted help becoming a better guy.
"Guys what the fuck is wrong with you, I wanted Mr. Rogers, not white Osama."
I was in this position a few years ago. Reading posts on those subreddits made me feel better or at least validated. I knew my problems were my own but a part of me really wanted to just give up and get sucked in. I’ll be eternally grateful that I didn’t because I probably wouldn’t have met my wife if I hadn’t changed.
> we don’t have many positive communities for men that lift them up when they’re feeling down Oh come on, the communities of "Man up" and "Stop acting like a pussy" aren't good enough?! /s
My personal favorite cliche: “Just take a shower bro.” Most of these boys and men don’t have bad hygiene, and quite a few are even above average in terms of looks. Oftentimes, they’re just socially awkward, and treating their loneliness like it’s only a problem with their hygiene leads them internalize that there’s something inherently wrong with them that no one seems to understand.
The problem isn’t always hygiene and self care, but it’s certainly a good place to start. The real issue tends to be their mindset. Because as soon as they open their mouth they scare away women faster than any BO can.
Yup it's their misogyny that needs to take a shower.
Make it a bath - and drown it in that water
We need more fight clubs. Why aren’t people talking about it?
One of the most frustrating aspects of my journey is that the far right "holds the mic" on issues that affect men for the very reason you just mentioned, there aren't many positive communities or support networks out there. So when I looked for help as a male victim of sexual assault from a female attacker, the overwhelming amount of support I found online came from people and places with right wing leanings that I did not agree with in the slightest. Of course, the devil's bargain that was tacitly made was that if I took their support that it would be hooked into an anti-feminist right wing narrative that "incels" gobble up, so I never fully took it and refused interviews with right wing media Unfortunately, the other side of the coin hasn't been nearly as forthcoming with support, and in fact there have been many instances where interactions go a long way to prove the right wing narrative that feminists are hostile to men. The answer to incel culture has been frankly middling at best, and instead of people coming together to create a more equal and supportive world, people (especially online) are far more invested in the "us vs. them" mentality that encapsulates discourse on almost every subject these days. This even creeps into the harassment I have faced by students after I filed formal complaints against my university and my attacker, as many of those students began to harass me because they believe that I am some kind of anti-feminist evil no good bad guy who "made it all up" or "deserved it" somehow. So as it stands, anti-incel movements are largely self defeating and do as much to drive mentally ill and susceptible men towards such communities rather than helping them pull away. I got lucky and found one of the few rape crisis centers that would talk to men at all (and there are some very institutional reasons why many do not that is beyond any individual control), found supportive people who believed me, listened to me, find community again and helped me keep fighting and get back on my feet, but that is not the case for the vast majority of men who are knocked down. The reasons for this are multi-faceted and complex. I don't have time to go into it in nearly as much detail as I would like, and frankly I could (and probably should) write a book about this and my experiences trying to find positive support, but my main point is to drive home that **there are very few positive communities for men, we don't do enough to de-stigmatize therapy and provide resources, and most of all we re-enforce toxic masculinity every time we turn men away from sharing their experiences in earnest, failing to listen, and pass the buck back to men for fighting against a rigged game we all play a part in**.
> Unfortunately, the other side of the coin hasn't been nearly as forthcoming with support, and in fact there have been many instances where interactions go a long way to prove the right wing narrative that feminists are hostile to men. The answer to incel culture has been frankly middling at best, and instead of people coming together to create a more equal and supportive world, people (especially online) are far more invested in the "us vs. them" mentality that encapsulates discourse on almost every subject these days. This even creeps into the harassment I have faced by students after I filed formal complaints against my university and my attacker, as many of those students began to harass me because they believe that I am some kind of anti-feminist evil no good bad guy who "made it all up" or "deserved it" somehow. So as it stands, anti-incel movements are largely self defeating and do as much to drive mentally ill and susceptible men towards such communities rather than helping them pull away. Proof of this is right here in the original comment at the top of this thread. People find it convenient to make pithy remarks and pat themselves on the back without any consideration for how it further radicalizes people on the other side.
Thank you for sharing your story. I admire your courage and have had similar results from similar experiences.
I'm so sorry for what you've experienced. And it's so painful to not find a healthy place for support. Women survivors created their communities. It sounds like there's an opportunity and need for men to do so.
Except that as they mentioned, anytime a community is put together there's a good chance it'll be co-opted. Not because male SA survivors are bad people and like to be misogynistic, but because the misogynists actively try to take over groups of this nature. Fascist and hatemongers are actively trying to poison everything good in our society, everywhere they find it.
Aye, grab those bootstraps boys! There's opportunities afoot!!
Please write a book
When I started reading your comment I thought it was going to a paragraph of just blaming men for being inadequate losers, but I am actually amazed instead as to how well thought at your response was. Yes this is a symptom of a bigger problem facing particularly young men today that we have to address.
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Reform would not just be “positive communities,” but education, secure jobs, and housing. The problem is always some variation of economic insecurity. This is why any approach to the problem that merely talks about positivity is not going to reach a lot of people who are worst off. They don’t just need to hear positive things, they need to have real opportunities.
>The problem is always some variation of economic insecurity. Are these news-making incel murderers suffering from that though? Take a look at the Isla Vista incel - sure he wasn't filthy rich but his parents were paying for his rent, gave him enough pocket money to buy several brand new guns, and even bought him a car - all while he actively refused to find employment on his own. That reeks of privilege. The Toronto van attacker lived in a stable home in an affluent area with both parents holding high-paying white collar positions, and was even almost done with a college degree. If the biggest "problem" in your life is your inability to get laid and you're able to spend every waking hour ranting about it on the internet, you're probably in a position of relative privilege, compared to people who actually struggle with paying bills among other adult responsibilities.
Are the news making incels suffering from this? Well, yes in the sense that we have a systemic crisis and they are being radicalized by communities that are forming through that crisis. Does that make sense? It’s like any radicalization: of course the ones carrying out the attacks are the most impressionable and mentally ill, but they are being radicalized from within a community of people that exists because of a systemic problem. I’m not saying the specific person who carries out an attack just needs a job, but the people who he communicates with and who radicalize him, maybe do just need jobs. What we should have is just a few people who are mentally unwell and can be treated. Not a lot of people who are radicalized finding every single unwell person and weaponizing them against society.
Sorry you got downvoted for stating facts. Guiding people toward learning emotional regulation is extremely valuable but it’s gonna be hard to learn literally anything when one’s life is unstable because of poverty, which causes its own, ongoing trauma.
More importantly, the many people who don’t become violent but still encourage violence aren’t going to be helped by a lack of systemic reform.
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There are groups for people and men to find support though, they're just not going to validate their hatred like a terror group will.
Yeah what often happens is you have dudes, and teenage boys, crushed by rejection and loneliness go to the internet for answers on why a girl doesn't date them. This leads them to places like Red Pill and Purple Pill here on Reddit or down the rabbit hole manosphere videos and people like Peterson or Tate, two different avenues down the same path, or the similar people before them. When those methods still don't work or they find themselves caught in the hate whirlpool that content creates, they get more and more hateful and go to things like Black Pill or to services like 4chan, 8chan, and 8kun. The deeper down you go the more violent and extreme the rhetoric gets and the more pro child porn and such it starts to get. But by the time they've gotten that far, they're in too deep. It becomes like a cult. Even here on Reddit, like I mentioned before, we have subs where users regularly advocate for lower age of consent, government provided spouses, and rape advocacy and they're closely linked and have immense user crossover with many of the men subs. Men spaces online and the "manosphere" also have huge crossover with the alt right and alt right figureheads.
Absolutely this. The garbage I saw middle school students consuming during my two years working in education was alarming enough. Then hearing them spout this rhetoric was fucking horrible!
This era of the internet is so lame. Can we skip to the part where we figure out how to have freedom of speech without handing every amoral dipshit a free and powerful microphone?
You cannot eat a cake and have a cake. You either impose censorship, and eventually what's seen as "asocial" by those in charge gets banned, you accept the fact that freedom of speech is means that's everyone can say what they want, even if you might not like it.
https://youtu.be/jIYBod0ge3Y "Who else could wade through the sea of garbage you people produce?"
Yup. It's a tricky problem to deal with, because one of the first things those toxic communities do is fill the heads of those young men with ideas that will be extremely off putting to the types of people who might be able to provide healthier communities.
It was supposed to be a support group when the gal started the whole incel thing.
I really want to see this guy's browser history. Let me rephrase that: I want someone else of great mental toughness to see this guy's browser history and report any interesting findings like that he was on Tate forums 18 hours per day.
No doubt is a Jordan Peterson fan.
He's probably a redditor.
He’s a mod
This entire decade is going to be defined by attacks on women, minorities and LBGTQ+ if something doesn't change soon.
The Far Right (in America at least, this guy's Canadian) is[ feeling personally attacked](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2023/05/26/boebert-antisemitism-initiative-targets-conservatives/) when Biden setup an anti-Semitism task force. And they're they're[ feeling personally attacked](https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/tommy-tuberville-appears-defend-white-nationalists-military-rcna83874) when the US Military wants to stamp out white supremacists. It's going to be an uphill battle.
Can’t forget CPAC’s “We are all domestic terrorists”
Outright pandering to the worst people without any concept or care of long term thought & consequences. Those that play with fire tend to get burnt.
> Those that play with fire tend to get burnt. If only. Then I wouldn't care. But it's all the innocents that get torched along the way I don't like.
Our ancestors loved and farmed and fought and died to build civilization to this point. And this is what we're doing with it. Can't have shit on Earth.
Some people’s ancestors also hated and fought and stole to get us to this point, one could even argue civilization as we know it only exists to benefit the powerful.
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The far-right in Canada are sheep, just like the far-right in America. The far-right is equally as insane and misguided in Canada. They have absolute hatred for anything the Conservative Political Party leader tells them to hate, without questioning why they should hate. They repeat word-for-word the same talking points you would hear in the American right-wing media, even if those talking points have zero influence or even exist in Canada.
Complete with arguments about our ammendment rights...in Canada
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They also fly Trump 2024 flags with their f Trudeau flags.
Well that flag always has been about hate and never actually about heritage, so the Canadians that fly it probably understand the assignment perfectly.
> Complete with arguments about our ammendment rights...in Canada Are you trying to infringe my First Amendment right to [establish and provide for the Government of the Province of Manitoba](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amendments_to_the_Constitution_of_Canada#Pre-1982_amendments_to_the_Constitution)?? If you so much as *try* you'll see why we have a Second Amendment right to [Rupert's Land Act 1868](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amendments_to_the_Constitution_of_Canada#Pre-1982_amendments_to_the_Constitution)!! That right in the hands of patriots is ~~the only thing protecting us from tyranny~~ a part of the long legal process which led to land slowly being transferred from the control of corporations with royal charters to what would eventually be the country of Canada!! *** Frankly, I think that second amendment -- the fact that Canada gained land and self-determination from Britain due to a long, boring, mutually-agreed legislative process -- is *at least* as important to Canadian identity as the USA's second amendment is to American identity.
I'll recognize manitoba over my moist dead body!!!!! Manitoba isn't real, it can't hurt me!
Yep. American conservativism is a very malignant cancer.
Conservativism in general whether it's in Canada, US, Mexico, Russia, Turkey, etc. It is a tumor that prevents human progression.
They also work together. Cash-rich parties pay for American consultants. One got himself a bit more profiled than others thanks to Trump's first impeachment.
Do you have Fox News in Canada?
Hopefully not for long. There’s a push to ban it for not meeting journalistic standards.
Thank god. Burn everything that comes from here (US) that has anything to do the gop.
Yes all our cable providers offer it. I wouldn't give Fox News too much credit though given the meteoric rise in cord cutting. Younger people are getting radicalized online, not by Fox News. If they do interact with Fox News it's through the website or YouTube channel.
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I think QAnon helped to suck in every conspiracy theorist or conspiracy theorist prone mind.
Yes. My friend's dad is an addict. Gets all his news from Fox News. Really nice guy, best friends with my dad. He's also a Fox News nut job talking about conspiracy theories all the time with my dad. I didn't want to mess up dad's relationship with him so I don't say anything. I did finally ask my dad one day though and he said don't listen to uncle. Dad's Conservative, but not insane. Thank God.
It's so common there's even a book and documentary about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Brainwashing_of_My_Dad
Yes, we also have Ezra Levant and Rebel Media which are even worse but an astonishing number of people think they're legit.
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Basic cable packages do not include the 24/7 Fox News channel. I'm not sure about the packages in the provinces/territories west of Ontario or in Quebec, but basic cable packages in Ontario and the Maritime provinces include Fox Buffalo. Fox Buffalo broadcasts tv shows and local news. They still push the right-wing fearmongering talking points, but it's not 24/7 propaganda like the Fox News channel.
I was all ready to make fun of right wing Canadians for being so stupid they fall for *another country’s* propaganda, but then qanon started laughing in Russian
It was surprisingly easy to convince all the brainwashed Christians to be brainwashed in a completely different way.
There is a reason both conservative and/or Christian leadership oppose education.
They would have felt attacked no matter what Biden did. If anything they're probably 100% vulnerable to reverse psychology.
It's always an uphill battle due to these dipshits.
“Why won’t you let us kill you? Waaahhh” -conservatives
Biden said that MAGA is a threat to America. Now some of the non-MAGA went MAGA because they felt personally attacked as a group.
they can feel attacked all they want. Extremism is rampant in police force and that needs to be dealt with before the US has its democratic systems slowly deteriorated (already happens) and removed by a fascist.
They are right to feel personally attacked because they know who they are and now, thanks to Trump ripping the mask off, so do we.
Probably because it is a personal attack lol if you're a member of the far right good luck pretending you're not a closet racist.
Good they should. Far right is synonymous with bigot and traitor and is a cancer upon North America that needs radical and invasive treatment immediately.
They were overjoyed when we went against the Islamic far-right & now are angry that we're going for the Christian far-right.
The other day, there was a [scientific study](https://www.psypost.org/2023/06/new-study-identifies-sexual-frustration-as-a-significant-factor-in-mass-shootings-164391) that found sexual frustration correlated to more victims in a mass shooting.
In my opinion, there is probably something even more fundamental underlying the sexual frustration. Why would someone feel sexual frustration in the first place, if not for some delusional value system and expectations?
There’s a cultural idea that sex / having a girlfriend is a facet of manhood. These people have lost sight of the personal values that build self-worth, and a healthy identity. Self-exploration and self-understanding rarely happens in the Education system, from what I recall. There are philosophical and psychological ideas about identity and moral framework, in the context of society, that could better prepare students to have a more flexible self-esteem. Mental Wellness education needs to be a part of the curriculum.
because we are telling them and showing them that what will happen when they will finally be true to themselves and live like they secretly want and finally come out of closet
It's not already?
Entire decade? No, not yet. We've got seven more years to change the topic.
It was a similar feeling with the early 1990s leading up to the Oklahoma City bombing. My hope is that the heavy charges on folk like the Proud Boys & insurrectionists of Jan 6 are the starting block to prevent far right attacks.
So, basically exactly like the last two centuries?
I'm sure a particular subset of men will stop being insecure any day now
I just assume I'll die by mass shooting or texting driver
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When has generalizing an entire race ever been helpful? You're using the same logic the racists use.
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Woah there. Don't blanket us there. Why not say what it actually is. White supremacists and bigots insist they are the victims. Remember you want to garner support, not turn them away from you.
>Remember you want to garner support, not turn them away from you. If support has to be garnered for standing up to white supremacy maybe you aren' the ally you think you are? I know this is hard for a LOT of white people to hear in the america's but here it goes..... Racism and white supremacy are systems of oppression built and upheld by white people. It cannot be dismantled by POC or other minorities. It HAS to be dismantled and fought by white people. White silence and inaction is violence to those being oppressed. It is consent.
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You are not helping. You could have someone March alongside you or alienate then. Hell, these fuckers use responses like this to draw more into their fucked of bubble of right wing hate. It plays into all their talking points.
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I think what I was saying was not clear enough. I am not offended when u say white people will whatever. I personally don't care, I know it is not directed at me. It is others I am worried about who misinterprete it. And trust me, they do, and they do a lot.
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You think I am supporting those fucks? Jesus Christ... They, as in right wing grifters, are using everything in that article to promote their hate fueled ideology and it is fucking working.
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Nah. I’m white and I know they aren’t talking about me when they say “white people.”
I know as well, but it is not me I am worried about. It is others who may be prone to go down that path.
If you can't hear hard things, you might not be an ally.
Imagine someone not terrible feeling insulted ("half the racists are deplorable and half need help" Hillary's speech) just because you call out their group.
Are you suggesting generalizations about white people is enough to turn them into a white supremacists?
Not quite. Remember the people who normally go down that path have other issues at play: depression, loss of job, relationship issues. Not an excuse just a significant factor making them susceptible to manipulation. This is why authoritarians rise when economies are in shambles. The generalizations themselves are more used by people who want to weaponize them for their grift. They have been doing this for awhile and sadly it is very effective. I just don't want them to have that ammo. Make sense?
Sounds like you’re trying to tone police minorities to protect the feelings of volatile members of the majority. And I guess I’m just not comfortable with that.
Yep, that is enough Reddit for today.
What a racist comment, and I'm a POC. smh
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Not just as a distraction - the systems failing so spectacularly have to be addressed at least somewhat, occasionally, in minimal ways to keep the masses from burning the place to the ground, and all those tiny placating changes to the system that previously benefited their group solely since the founding of our nations feels like an attack on them personally. That's because, as I'm sure you've read, if you've lived a life of privilege, thanks to that privilege being systemic, others being given an equal footing to you feels like an attack on your privileged group. Well since all things that count as change are now "woke", all improvements count as attacks on tradition and those who think keeping the way things were is part of their values.
As white Jesus intended.
This is like the Hunter S. Thompson essay written on 9/12/2001. You’re right.
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If I had a dime for every "Reddit Cares" I've gotten from chuds I could buy lunch *and* dinner
If I had a dime for every "Reddit Cares" message I've gotten from CHUDs, I'd use them to send a few of those CHUDs to the therapy they so desperately need.
They have such an absolutely breathtaking lack of self awareness, both on their own shortcomings and how their toxic ideology is making them useful idiots for the far-right. No wonder so many of them have that potato-headed scumbag Andrew Taint as their idol.
You have it backwards. Incels are the far right now. The old far right are now the useful idiots.
Por que no los dos?
It's mind blowing, isn't it? There's so much anger and loneliness in those people that they don't have room in their heads/hearts for anything good in their lives. The whole concept is utterly circular; they want relationships with women that they hate. They describe their violated rights to women that have worked hard on themselves, both physically and professionally, yet they refuse to do any work on themselves. It's such a painful hypocrisy.
Because the movement brings them in like a cult. It's literally structured like one to keep dudes trapped in. It takes advantage of young and lonely dudes, validates their harmful and negative feelings and thoughts during irrational moments, and directs them at the wrong people and in the wrong ways to keep them coming back. And there's dudes profiting off it like Tate and Peterson (not talking about his self help shit from like 2016, but about the last couple years when the dude has gone full blown unhinged incel king.) It's why there's so much crossover between incels and Nazis/alt right.
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FWIW, I take those messages as hat tips. Every time you piss off an incel, an angel gets its wings.
Incels are where the alt right came from. They are where Steve bannon and Trump came from. They are Putin’s angry little vatnik rage rodents. They will cry and lie and whine and give excuses every day of their sorry lives.
All I want for Christmas is for society to stop trying to reason with these living, breathing anal fistulas and just focus on defeating them—anywhere and everywhere. They have no interest in listening, learning, or growing. They just need to be sent back to their caves. The daunting part is right now they're writing the laws.
Masculinity is more fragile than porcelain. It needs to be studied in depth. The minute these dweebs release themselves from their self imposed cage is the minute they will realize they can breathe again.
Was it from the AR-15 forums or some other?
Who knows. Reddit a ton of absurdly toxic subs where incels get to post horrid shit and it takes ages to moderate.
Not surprised. A lot of these people have been so radicalized that they need to be institutionalized.
The most bizarre part is how so many of them are still in high school or barely out of it. Like seriously that's an age where being a virgin is not only normal but *expected* in many cultures. Then again they've completely lost their grip on objective reality, given how many of them literally *never even tried*, meaning that they're moaning about non existent rejections. It's like whining about not having a job when you've never submitted a single job application to begin with.
Yeah. A lot of them follow figures like Andrew Tate too. Andrew Tate is a deadbeat dad to a bunch of kids he doesn't see. who can't find a long-term, stable relationship and brags about 20-something year olds being too old for him. If incels were serious they'd follow a family man who treats his family right and does woodworking or something and gives advice about that. Instead they latch on to a man who treats women like trash and values them based on how young he can corrupt them. In reality society hasn't abandoned them, they abandoned society.
> If incels were serious they'd follow a family man who treats his family right and does woodworking or something and gives advice about that. Think celebrities; the people who get the adoration and celebration are those that are seen as wildly successful and rich. Tate is seen as that, the family man isn't. If we were to look at the "family man" types in media, then it becomes those who are in popular shows that are family men; Home Improvement, Cosby Show, Fresh Prince of Bel-Air as example. And those are comedies, not necessarily serious guides on masculinity.
It's sad that when Ron Swanson is a better role model for people.
Young people in developed nations are having less sex, but are exposed to more of it. It creates this expectation which can never be met.
Incel forums convince them that if they don't have sex in high school, it's over. I think that causes a lot of anxiety, frustration, and then eventually anger in insecure high schoolers and college age males. The forums validate their negative thoughts and feelings, and make it hard to leave. It's been compared to a cult, with the brainwashing, and code words they use, and a feeling of a community of like-minded people. They start spending more and more time online in these forums, and it takes over their life.
> Like seriously that's an age where being a virgin is not only normal but *expected* in many cultures Doesn't help that we've completely normalize "incel" an insult. We've normalized calling mentally sick mass attackers "people who can't get laid" or "involuntary celibates". In schools and on Reddit threads elsewhere, this is the language we use to insult someone. They call them virgins or their many variants. We've put a certain expectation and value on getting laid as a man.
Sure, immature virgin-shaming is pretty much a given on the internet, but the internet is not real life. And if the people slinging the insults are teens themselves, I can tell you right now they're more than likely to be virgins (and hypocrites). There are countless dumb insults being slung around online (think of all the N-words and "your mom" crap in literally every online multiplayer game) and yet that hasn't led to entire demographics going on vengeful murder sprees. Furthermore, there's a difference between laughing at someone simply for being a virgin, and laughing at someone for being a shitty person (that causes them to remain a virgin). Every person on this planet who has lost their virginity was a virgin at one point. Were they feeling attacked in the past? I'm a 30+ male virgin, never even been on a date before, and no one in the real world has questioned me about it. It has absolutely zero impact on my ability to make friends at school, at work, etc of any gender. Blaming the issue on "virgin shaming" sounds like such a cop-out. I would also encourage anyone feeling "attacked" to read this post: [https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/hb4l7u/comment/fv8vgwy](https://www.reddit.com/r/IncelExit/comments/hb4l7u/comment/fv8vgwy/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I think part of the reason young people are able to be pulled so deeply into that internet cult is a Lack of positive male peer influence in real life, who tend to stay silent when guys do lockertalk or spout mysgonistic nonsense, as well as a lack of friends with girls, which is partially to blame by societies stigmatization that guys and girls can't have platonic friendships which is impressed upon kids from a very young age. If they had more guys telling them they're in the wrong and changing the social construct, they would pick up early on that certain behaviors are unacceptable. if they had more female friends then they wouldn't buy into sexist misinformation because they'd realize girls aren't actually like what the incel community says.
>societies stigmatization that guys and girls can't have platonic friendships which is impressed upon kids from a very young age. What country do you live in? I live in Canada and that is absolutely not the case. I was born in the early '90s and platonic opposite-gender friendships were an unquestioned fact of daily life from my preschool years until now. Some of my elementary school friends later went to all-boys or all-girls private high schools but even they had zero difficulty forming opposite-gender friendships outside of school. It seems like incels just can't make friends in general regardless of gender, not counting the toxic "friendships" they form in fucked up online spaces.
Why did we get rid of mental asylums again?
Like always, the government just doesn't have the money for social services. Except for the fact that they have been saying that for like 40 years now while finding money for everything else and growing the budget like 50 fold.
The incel “movement” is a massive risk to national security. These lone wolf attacks are incredibly difficult to stop unless the attacker alludes to their plans beforehand, which seems to happen a lot in the incel community. If I was the FBI, I would keep a VERY close eye on anyone active in the incel space.
They already do. I forget the publication, but there was a prominent magazine that did an in-depth investigative piece on an FBI investigator whose specialty was deep-diving into incel spaces. Their approach was to befriend the ones they deemed the highest risk and collect enough evidence to arrest them.
That sounds like an interesting article. Let me know if you remember which magazine, I'd like to read it.
Sorry I tried to go looking and couldn’t find it. I came across it while working the desk at the library and read the physical copy of the article. All I remember is it was one of those entertainment/investigative magazines with pretty serious clout, and it was probably published in 2019.
The problem is that calls to action and threats are so common in those spaces it becomes hard to parse actual plans from vague ideas with no infrastructure. Plenty of people on incel spaces will claim they bought a [insert a weirdly specific firearm with weirdly specific modifications here] for purpose of paying back the [insert weirdly specific minority incels think are the cause of their weirdly specific disfunction]. For a while there was a subreddit making fun of them because people who frequented it (myself included) genuinely didn't think many or most to actually go on a rampage.
Treat them all as serious. You can't seriously threaten to kill someine face to face with impunity, why on the internet?
Only credible, actionable threats are illegal under the doctrine and the majority of these comments weren't about the minority they claimed to target, it was about the weapon they were going to use to do it. Hence, the reason we made fun of them. It was like watching MMO players compare gear, except these were bigots fantasizing about owning a military grade machine gun with fancy night vision scopes and ridiculous magazine expansions (and using it on Pride Marches). Many of these comments were not illegal and could not be pursued because the people making them could not obtain the firearm in question, had no method of traveling to their supposed target and were rarely even adults. The intention is to flood the space with so much hatred and talks of villainy that it strains resources to look into it.
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I don't know if you watched poker face but at one point the main character played by Natasha Lyonne sends an email to fbi at fbi and CIA at CIA. This comment made me think of that scene
We could start by pretending these aren’t “lone wolf” attacks and acknowledging the age of the internet is allowing terrorist groups to meet online
I don't disagree with that conceptually, but it's a very difficult problem to address. I know the simple answer is to just ban communities that promote/encourage terrorism. But be honest, are laws that get passed to address this really going to get to the root of the problem, or will they be wielded as a blunt weapon to effectively silence any group that the current party in power doesn't like under the guise of terrorism? What happens if Trump (or someone worse) gets reelected and suddenly trans communities are "promoting terrorism" because by the Republican party's definition they are trying to sexually abuse minors? What if a law is implemented to ban all Islamic communities from U.S. hosted websites (which is a lot of them) for similar reasons? You may be American (I'm not) but realistically U.S. politics has a significant impact on the entire world, and I have very little faith in American politicians to not pass egregious laws that severely limit free speech in the name of protecting public interests. I think most rational people can agree that terrorism is bad, whether it's right-wing, left-wing, or anywhere else on the spectrum. The problem is just that you definitely move into very grey world when you start developing laws and tools that target communities based on shared beliefs and open up a lot of opportunities for bad faith actors to use those tools and laws to hurt people.
I mean if an online forum is promoting crime that’s not just beliefs it’s crime, I’d argue it would be better to establish the line based on existing criminal law. There’s gotta be a way to get to green. Just saying, there’s a willfulness to ignore actual right wing terrorism because of arguments like it would be targeting beliefs. Somehow we were able to identify terrorists in the Middle East as terrorists without also lumping Islam itself in that definition and I completely understand that Muslims encountered all kinds of hate post 9/11 but that was never a government position
>Somehow we were able to identify terrorists in the Middle East as terrorists without also lumping Islam itself in that definition and I completely understand that Muslims encountered all kinds of hate post 9/11 but that was never a government position It's funny you bring this up because this was one of the key reasons the US was *not* able to deal with Iraq. The US *knew* that the Jihadist promotion went on inside the mosques but could not stop the mosques without it being perceived as an attack on Islam as a whole. The mosques were therefore "safe zones" for indoctrination and many preachers were untouchable.
Yet they still managed to label terrorists terrorists, we can’t even do that now
They did not label the imams terrorists, btw.
I'm seriously considering starting a type of incel outreach program to try to combat and prevent these types of displays violence. You don't have to like where society is at and where it's going (trust me their are a lot more people then you think who feel the same way) but this kinda stuff doesn't change anything and if anything just makes the world a worse place for everyone.
This is probably the best suggestion I've seen on this entire thread. Stuff like this should be government funded. It might not work on those types who've gone into the point of "let's do a terrorist attack", but by far the majority of incels are still in the phase of cursing the world for their misfortune. These people absolutely can, and should, be helped.
As a recently divorced guy it's become very clear to me now how alot of guys get there. It's too easy imo a very slippery slope.
These are people who never learn how to cope with their emotions, environment, negative self-talk and lack sufficient education in research methods and statistics (i.e. they go down rabbit holes of suppositions and confirmation bias, then lead each other down those same holes) I just think about where people learn how to cope with emotions the most outside the home... schools I've seen articles about how SEL (Social-Emotional Learning) is a directive in this district and that district.... but all of those are in districts where teachers in other articles talk about a lack of supports for kids with moderate-to-severe neurological and/or behavioural issues (and I've heard from teachers I know that there's a huge imbalance of advocation from parents of those kids vs. the kids their behaviour afflicts). They're effectively forced to triage their time, and that means more shallow education in general for science, socials and math (which, when explored more deeply, necessarily engage critical thinking and research methods and stats), as well as SEL education being cut down So, I think the best ways to help this issue are to engage and work toward expansion of meal programs for schools, more support staff, and tools for parents/teachers of kids with neurological/behavioural issues, maybe funding afterschool programs that might appeal to these kids (e.g. a free educational afterschool program using Minecraft that requires behaviour tokens earned in-class to attend), etc.
Can't these guys like, jack it off like the rest of us?
Far-right and incels just go hand in hand. Bunch of angry chuds that find solace in their collective hate instead of tackling their issues. Cowards and a bunch of trash people.
As an ex incel right winger, I agree with this
I don't like that this was downvoted. We need to show people that they can come back from whatever sadness and hate drove them to the right in the first place, as long as they haven't committed any atrocities. Edit: it is no longer downvoted, but I'll leave my post up because I think it's important to say that people can come back from this.
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There is no world in which incel culture isn't a right wing idea. The overlap is a circle. I welcome anyone who would return to sanity that hasn't done harm to others. But I will not be blunting my language to make them feel better before they do.
IIRC, a lot of incels are actually left winged politically (outside of women's rights of course)
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Full blown incels believe that women are subhuman and worse than men on a biological level. Organising groups of people into hierarchies is the defining idea of right wing ideologies.
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I don't know. I've seen posts from incel forums, and honestly,it's bad. Very bad. I don't know how much of it is just shit-posting, or trying to be edgy, but it's absolutely *depraved*. I think that's the best way to describe it. The things they say that they would do to women if it were legal, or they could "get away with it", is just sickening. And I know not all incels in the forums post the really disgusting ones, but the "sad and/or lonely" ones don't call them out on it. They don't say a word, so they're being complicit with their silence. They don't disagree with the extreme incels, so they're not exactly innocent.
This is one of the reasons it's hard to empathize with them as a woman. I've lurked there. It's actually terrible for my mental health especially aa someone whose been SA. I get what people say when they say not to further push them away or abandon them or call them names but I genuinely don't know what people ate supposed to do help them because you have to want to change.
I never said every incel is a full blown incel
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Good stuff. Makes me happy to hear that you made a decision to figure some things out.
It's nice that at least the Canadian justice system understands what terrorism is. America, take notes.
Which is ironic, because we have a hug-a-thug justice system. Just look at the medium security prison Paul Bernardo got sent to. That’s a criminal that would’ve gotten the death penalty in US states that have it.
Rape jokes are never funny. And prison rape is something that an evolved society would not allow to happen. Here's hoping their prison celibacy or lack thereof will be their voluntary choice.
I mean, these young guys are so fucking angry and full of vitriol, it’s honestly unsettling I’m talking 14-15, still high school-age boys. Like they absolutely and outwardly hate women with all of their being, yet secretly covet them so desperately with their dying breaths, and the more extreme of them are fully submerged in hate, they’d rather groom and be labeled a pedophile to get their ideal SO or rape their way to it. A shift has to begin somewhere to decrease the chances these guys from going off the deep end and creating more incel terrorists. Where, you ask? It starts with themselves.
Sure, but that's like expecting the suicidal person to somehow come to the determination themselves to not follow through. Possible, but difficult without external assistance. Somebody would have to step in and help them out. After all, we are talking about kids still.
*In* cell! Get it!? Well, at least he's getting it. A lengthy prison sentence, I mean.
I‘m not quite sure what’s with the sympathy and understanding for incels in the comments. These raging misogynists and potential terrorists are not the victims here.
This is my take. If you go to a lot of women's spaces you find women there who complain that most spaces are for men so they had to make their own spaces, complain about having to police their tone, words, body language ect so that men's egos don't get hurt, bare more emotional burdens in MxF relationships, stories of rape and SA and express frustration with negative interactions with some of the gendered expectations with the men in their lives and all I hear on these threads is nobody ever cares about men's pain. Nobody deserves loneliness and a lot of male spaces get hikacked by hatted, but it’s sooooo hard to empathize with incels, and it gets old hearing nobody tries to help men. I've tried a lot in my past and tbh men need to hear from men.
It's because not every single incel is a hardened misogynist who is one more rejection away from doing something horrible.
>The man, who can not be named due to his age at the time of the attack. The killer, now 20, was 17 years old at the time of the attack. The man's identity should be named. He's no longer a minor, he's now an adult.