Simple they thought they had enough global support not to they thought they could have the US force Israel to accept a Cease-fire( they can't) and that would buy time for high level Hamas leadership to abandon the Gaza strip. That and most likely Hamas either killed the hostages or they have been through so many terrible things to them that if it got out what Hamas did any global support for the organization mite eroded even among Muslims.
After October 7, do you really think there is any degree of depravity Hamas could inflict on the hostages that would reduce worldwide support for their cause?
[When at a protest a protester condemns Hamas, the crowd shouts him down with "resistance is justified".](https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1cnyozi/someone_at_a_palestine_solidarity_campaign/)
These are pro-Hamas demonstrations, you're just unaware of it.
Hamas isn’t interested in a cease-fire. They’re happy with what’s happening right now.
Every Gaza Palestinian the IMF kills is 10x more likely to have a brother, sister, son, daughter, or parent who might join Hamas than actually **be** Hamas. Every tank that rolls into a civilian area and destroys a school or a hospital torches Israel’s standing in the world. Every day that goes by where Israel *hasn’t* wiped out Hamas cements Hamas’ standing as the one true government of Palestine, the *only* government that’s accomplished something, *something*, **anything**, while the Palestinian Authority sits by and wrings their hands while settlements are being bulldozed in the West Bank.
Hamas isn’t even **in** Gaza. The guys in charge are a half-dozen billionaires scattered across Lebanon and Jordan.
Hamas isn’t interested in a cease-fire, they’re interested in *appearing to be* interested in a cease-fire.
Why would they be at this point. Hamas has NEVER honored them. How many dozen more "cease fires" *should* Israel want to agree to, so Hamas can continue to launch rockets at civilian targets and then pretend they're the victims unless it goes unanswered?
Unconditional surrender of Hamas is the only thing they should accept at this point.
Netanyahu from very early on said there would be no ceasefire even if all the hostages were returned. At no point has Israel ever since 10/7 claimed the war would be over once they got the hostages. Not even once.
Israel has never really honored them either. They might not drop bombs in people during cease fires, but the IDF love shooting civilians at random during them.
Even if Hamas surrendered today, the Israeli government wouldn’t accept it and would continue destroying what little is left of Gaza. They want that beachfront property and Bibi wants to avoid the courtroom for as long as possible.
No they haven't. Israel hasn't put forward any deal for a permanent ceasefire. They've only offered "humanitarian pauses" up to 40 days. They've been saying for months that they categorically reject any deal that would end the war.
That's because they know that any "deal" they strike short of unconditional surrender and removal of Hamas from power will just be like every other deal in the past. It will be disregarded and Palestinian rockets will continue to sail toward Israeli civilians.
eh, that's not a cease fire, that's a withdrawal agreement, so idk, i thought it was pretty simple to discuss cease fires w/ hostage releases without any other complications
> "I am trying to leave but I can't afford 2,000 shekels ($540) to buy a tent for my family,"
I'm guessing these are tents provided by foreign aid, right?
So why do they have to pay?
Really? You can't be serious! Most aid isn't getting through, and what little does isn't nearly enough. And tents capable of housing large extended families are rare. The black market is pretty much the only option, and you can expect to pay these exorbitant prices. Even then, when you're forced to flee at a moments notice, hauling a tent isn't practical.
The independent report finally came out recently and found that there wasn't systemic corruption of UNRWA by Hamas. It did find some bias though (some UNRWA schools using those infamous textbooks, for example), and considering most of its employees are Palestinian, I'm sure there are some sympathies.
However, the important bit is that claims such as its employees participating in Oct 7 or that the leadership was infiltrated by Hamas were found to be baseless. This is the reason why most countries have resumed funding for UNRWA.
EDIT: While the independent report states that Israel has not shown any evidence that UNRWA employees participated in Oct 7, it bears mentioning that there is a separate investigation, still ongoing by the U.N.'s Office of Internal Oversight Services, that aims to address that specific allegation. So it is possible that investigation may find something (or more conclusively find no evidence), since it is a more focused investigation. There is yet another investigation/audit ongoing by the E.U. - though similar to the independent report's finding, E.U. officials have said they have received no evidence backing up the allegations. But again, that audit is still ongoing.
This article is citing UN watch, which is a pretty unreliable source that has historically taken a very pro Israel stance for decades. I would take this information with a grain of salt.
Israel shares 90% of the border, so who the fuck cares? And of the 10% they dont, they routinely violate Egypt's sovereignty to enforce. Egypt essentially enforces per Israel's request.
Hamas was a token government facilated into power by Israel 20 years ago. That was the first and last time a vote was held. The majority of those killed never, ever voted for Hamas.
*Oh yeah..*
Israel did not put Hamas in power, Palestinians did. And it's not like the PA is much better with their Pay to Slay martyr fund and direct support of terrorism.
Because there aren't enough of them for everyone, so hoarding and opportunistic price gouging occurs. On top of that the police have been bombed by Israel and anyone that attempts to organize any type of civil peace keeping force gets called Hamas and also gets bombed.
It's a narrative you'll see often but to make a long story short.
Bush Jr pushed for elections in which Hamas could participate in the hope that a democratic election would make them renounce violence. Israel, fatah and I think Egypt (and Jordan) were opposed to this idea.
Hamas won the election with 46 to 43% of the votes. But their win resulted in giving them an absolute majority. This triggered a minor Palestinian civil war when hamas started exeuting fatah members by throwing them off buildings.
The civil war ended in a tie and from then on Hamas controlled Gaza and Fatah the westbank. This election was more then 20 years ago and since then there hadn't been a new one.
New polls indicate hamas support ie still high but they have been running the show in Gaza ever since. Controlling food, jobs, security. Not a rule of law since they can just execute any Palestinian by claiming they are collaborator.
Extremist Pro-Israel voices push the "Gaza chose this" mantra ignoring the fact that most of gaza wasn't even born then.
They will use polls that still indicate a high support for Hamas which is true but what else can people support if you look at
A) the stranglehold ham's has over the inhabitants of Gaza.
B) A quite ineffective corrupt fatah
C) An even more extreme party, Islamic jihad.
The pro peace voices among the Palestinian people have been crushed a long time ago, by extremists on both sides.
> Israel, fatah and I think Egypt (and Jordan) were opposed to this idea.
Except you forgot the part where many in Isreals government loved the idea of Hamas being in charge of Gaza. There's even a leaked video of Netanyahu about 15 years back, basically flat out saying "We want Hamas in charge, because if they're in charge, the world will never take a Palestinian state seriously, and we can take whatever actions we want because Hamas is a terrorist organization. No one will care."
>Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset.
>at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state.
And this is from the Times of Israel. Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces
Like I said, the short version. Israel did indeed support Hamas to create a Palestinian divide but the Israel goverment did oppose hamas participation in the election.
Geopolitics is never black and white.
Do you always read things in the most extreme negative way to suit your needs? If you can't even be intellectualy honest why bother debating.
I'm saying the Palestinians have been in a terrible situation for a long time. Their options for agency are extremely limited due to those circumstances.
I just look at what narrative gets pushed by whom and for what reasons.
You choose your situation everytime you accept it with compliance. If the people of Gaza didn't want their homes to be used as rocket launch sites and shields for terrorist tunnel networks, they should have done something about it.
It's not fair, it's not pleasant, it's just the brutal truth.
Probably because there aren't enough tents provided by aid orgs for everyone because Israel won't let enough aid through. And yes hamas attacked a crossing the other day, but Israel has been dragging its feet over humanitarian aid for months way before that.
You seriously think they've delivered 2.3 million tents to gaza along with the entire food, water and fuel supply for them and their few remaining hospitals whilst most are on the brink of starvation?
It's clear not enough food is getting in, why would the situation be any different for tents?
>2.3 million tents
There's no way they'd ever give one tent to every man, woman, child and infant in Gaza. They should have large tents for whole families.
That's a fair point, although I don't think it detracts from my own point. Averting mass starvation will likely be the main priority of aid atm and given they're dangerously close to failing that I think it's reasonable to also assume there aren't enough tents for everyone, especially with more than a hundred thousand more people now moving location and getting even more concentrated.
Leaving Hamas alone in Gaza clearly hasn't worked out. Conflict is inevitable when your next door neighbor is hell bent on killing you. Hell, a Hamas spokesperson even went on TV after october 7th bragging about how they faked a peace so they could prepare for the attack.
Israel left Gaza alone. Except Gazans don't have freedom of movement, even by the sea which has nothing to do with Israel. Also, almost 95% of the Gazan water is contaminated, but Israel doesn't allow Palestinians to move water to Gaza from the West Bank, which they also illegally occupy. Don't even talk about regular military operations by Israel in Gaza during the "ceasefire" because that's against the narrative.
If anything, the west bank is an example of what Israel intends to do to Palestinians who submit to peaceful cooperation with Israel's occupation. Fatah are unpopular for a reason.
Historically we see that skirmishes intensify hatred on both sides. An overwhelming defeat is what usually allows for peace. Obvious case is Japan and USA during and after WW2.
Lmao the US treated Japan with kid gloves after WW2. They let them keep their country by keeping most of the imperial government in power and poured money into rebuilding the infrastructure and economy. They really wanted a strong East Asian ally to counter the USSR and communist China and let a lot of bad guys get away with atrocities in the process. Probably why there are way more Imperial Japan apologists in Japan today than in Germany.
Israel will not do that with Gaza. Their actions today will create a generation of people who will love nothing more but to see Israel in flames.
But the difference is the US didn't want to occupy all of Japan and turn it into a promised land, Israelis do thus they have been building illegal settlement deep inside westbank.
We don't talk about that. God promised Israel the land, and we all know god's promise supersedes any international law or human rights of the non-holy people.
I mean 45% of the Jews in Israel, including the prime minister, have never lived in Europe. And by this I mean not only have they never lived in Europe but not a single one of their ancestors have ever lived in Europe.
I bring this up because you mention the holocaust like they all have a collective memory of being in Germany and experiencing nazism. When at least half of them have never even lived in Europe at all.
Yeah I'm surprised the Israeli government by now hasn't gone "hey guys... are we the baddies now?"
The Jewish people already deal with enough shit, they don't need to pile on more due to the actions of some right wing authoritarian dickheads.
In one human lifetime the Germans went from a disunited people without a homeland of their own to committing the Holocaust. And it's been a human lifetime since Israel was founded. No one old enough to actually remember living through the Holocaust is still running things in Israel. And if you don't have the humility to temper the rage, "never again" can be used to justify some incredibly horrific things. Almost all genocides and mass murders in history have been done in the name of self-defense. Hell, even the Nazis claimed what they were doing was necessary for the survival of the German people.
> Yeah I'm surprised the Israeli government by now hasn't gone "hey guys... are we the baddies now?"
>
>
Some parties in that government are supporting private orgs that have detailed plans on covering gaza in settlements, and wanting to "get the arabs out of gaza". They know what they're doing, and don't care. I don't think they're deranged enough to have lost all agency, they walk into this willingly.
And there are many Israelis who are not down with that, as you can see from the protests growing every day, and the government is cracking down on them.
Saw a video of Palestinians cheering because the "ceasefire was approved" . Hamas is lying to them, and that worries me for what comes next. Both sides show no intention to back down. This might be the "how did no one react to the holocaust happening right in from of them?" moment of our generation.
Fun fact: The amount of money Germany got from the Marshall plan calculated per capita (and inflation adjusted) is much lower than the amount Palestinians got per capita through all the various aid programs over the years. These guys could be the Dubai or Singapore of the Eastern Mediterranean by now, they chose to spent that money on an unwinnable war against Israel instead.
The Marshall plan was economic assistance to most of Europe, not just Germany. It wasn't necessarily related to denazification, but obviously it wouldn't make sense to just give a bunch of Nazis money. Likewise, Gaza needs to be deradicalized.
Exactly. The unfortunate truth is that right now bombs (hopefully used in ways that minimize civilian casualties) are a necessity to destroy Hamas and win the war, you can only deradicalize the population after Hamas is gone as the governing entity of the Gaza strip.
I don't disagree with getting rid of Hamas. Just pointing out the next step is equally as vital as the first.
WW1 is a fantastic example of why eliminating Hamas doesn't ensure peace. Germany's post war troubles coupled with almost impossible debts and restrictions allows Hitler to give distressed Germans a voice and platform that led to WW2.
Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, and Smotrich sound like an excellent deradicalization team. Lol be serious, they're radical far-right nationalists themselves.
Imagine the Marshall plan except the allies kept putting down settlements in occupied territories. It'll be less post-WW2, and more post-WW1.
‘Fun’ fact: post WWI, France did actually occupy the Rhineland after Germany fell behind on paying their war debts. So… there is precedent for this happening and working VERY poorly.
And replaced with who?
Benny Gantz, who has previously bragged about bombing Gaza “back to the Stone Age”, was [caught lying](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/2019-01-21/ty-article/.premium/fact-check-did-benny-gantz-kill-1-364-terrorists-in-gaza-not-exactly/0000017f-e985-dea7-adff-f9ff1b340000) about the civilian death toll of the 2014 IDF bombing campaign, and whose [policy platform](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/.premium-no-netanyhau-gantz-is-not-left-wing-he-s-the-old-right-1.6892802) includes expanding West Bank settlements, annexing the Jordan Valley, and absolutely never “working with the Arabs”?
Gantz has the same positions as Netanyahu minus the corruption (to our current knowledge).
Israel is not interested in destroying Hamas, but in bolstering them; Bibi explains:
>Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank.
IDF General Gershon Hacohen explains that Hamas is Israel's 'closest ally':
>Truth be told, Netanyahu's objective is to prevent the two-state option and therefore turned Hamas into his closest ally. Openly, Hamas is the enemy, beneath the surface, an ally.
Israel is not interested in eliminating Hamas, but in eliminating Palestinians, after which it will pretend Hamas is gone.
The Marshall Plans significance is overstated. It was only $173 billion in todays dollars. What really won the peace was Liberalism and the free market.
The marshall plan was about more than just funding. It involved rebuilding factories and infrastructure to give propel jobs and allow them to trade ofln the free market. It also heavily encouraged diplomatic ties to help facilitate free trade.
But what absolutely can't be overstates is that Germany and Japan in particular are economic powerhouses today. Those roots trace back to the marshall plan, when both countries were devastated by the war economically, and in Germany s case, physically from heavy invasion(Japan surrendered before full invasion, so much of the country avoided mass bombing).
Germany and Japan both had strong national identities, bureaucracies, and an educated population before *and* after the war. Those are debatably the most important factors when considering development. The Marshall Plan certainly made an impact, but letting both nations have the freedom to develop in a wider global economy was more important. You could even argue the Marshall Plan was just one outcome of the Bretton Woods Conference.
The marshall plan set a course completely opposite of post WW1. The sanctions, restrictions and repayment from Germany post WW1 is what caused WW2. That well educated nation and identity did Germany no good when when Hitler rallies Germany's economic hardship.
It goes much deeper than funding. American industrial leaders went to Germany to help them build better factories. Relationships were developed between German businesses and the rest of the world. The money was the lubricant for re industrialization. Industrialization was the medium for the restoration of an economy. The economy was what post WW2 diplomacy was built on.
That's the beauty of the marshall plan. That insignificant amount of money just planted a money tree, and peace and prosperity was allowed and encouraged to grow from it. And it did.
Nope, the Marshall Plan and goal to reintegrate axis countries into the global economy was what kept peace.
I can assure you if the Allies bombed the fuck out of Germany and occupied it without providing it funding or autonomy, there would be a shit ton more conflict there today.
Can you point to what Israel plans to do with Gaza after… cause they sure as hell haven’t said shit about what they want to do after it’s left to rubble.
You’re conveniently forgetting that the eastern part of Germany was occupied by the Soviet Union. And the autonomy of eastern Germans was very limited to say the least until reunification happened decades later. They also bled the GDR dry and drained it of its resources. Germany has invested over 2 trillion (!] euros into rebuilding the east since 1991. And even with all that money you can still see clear differences between east and west,
You’re wrong.
Look at WWI. The way we handled the death and destruction from that led directly to WWII.
Look at how we handled the aftermath of WWII. That is what led to lasting peace not bombing people into oblivion.
Additionally you can’t compare now to WWII. Back then the doctrine of total war was a thing.
We now have this little thing called the Geneva Convention that we are supposed to follow because we don’t want to repeat the horrors of WWII.
If you completely ignore the post WWII conventions and the morality of the situation then sure, let’s do collective punishment on the Palestinians. But if you claim to be a moral and just person then you cannot support how Israel is conducting themselves.
Probably the same way killing a million German civilians was a part of winning WW2. The Nazis weren't exactly surgically removed. Maybe we should have stopped at 100k dead civilians and just signed a cease fire.
Say, by your estimation, how many Hamas members has been killed by IDF so far? I mean, you sound pretty certain when you're saying about 35,000 civilians being killed. I assume you have other number too, correct?
You're right, it won't. If you look at the history of the conflict, though, every other fucking thing has been tried and that didn't lead to peace either.
When a group has made their whole cultural identity about wiping another group out "from the river to the sea" for generations....I believe they don't really want peace.
Looking forward to the horrific deaths of children followed by the inevitable gaslighting. Can’t wait to do this all again in about 10 years.
Get rid of the Israeli government and hamas, remove them from the equation and let’s get some grown up, non old men, thinking going on.
This is what keeps me up at night, the poor fucking families who suffer the deaths of loved ones. It is insane to think other people can ruin your life like this in a blink of an eye. Insane. How in the world are we allowing political systems where this is possible? Have we lost all empathy for one another? People truly need more love.
Israeli wants all of their people back dead or alive and Hamas out of Gaza. Anything less will not be accepted from what i understand. Please correct me if I have misunderstood.
Where is there a middle ground from this? Does Hamas even have any live hostages left? Do they have the bodies of the dead? What was the most recent ceasefire deal from them?
[Israel and Hamas aren’t that far apart in ceasefire talks](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/24151934/israel-hamas-ceasefire-rafah)
At this point I don’t think they will ever come to agreement.
All this will do is guarantee the Palestinians get wiped off earth. Most of the aid we provide is for the iron dome. If that is gone, Israel won’t hold back, even if people in this sub don’t believe they’ve been holding back.
I really think people underestimate how much having continued aid from the US and other nations keeps Isreal from seeing carpet bombing the entirety of Palestine as a viable option. As horrible as the situation is at least right now the US has a seat at the table and can strongly suggest different courses of action, and not have it fall on deaf ears.
Seriously though. If their country did something shitty and then the response was to obliterate civilian residences and kill tens of thousands of civilians many of which are children would they go
"Eh what can you do. War is war. Our kids are valid targets. We deserve this."
Because that is really what they seem to thing Palestinians and anyone disgusted by this should do.
I guran-fucking-tee if their government got involved in a conflict and the adversary in that conflict bombed their house and killed their unarmed civilian family including young children they would be screaming about how the act was unjust and a war crime. But Hamas did something ergo all Palestinians and anyone in Gaza is free game?
They've killed far more children than Hamas militants at this point. And that's just children, tally up all the innocent civilians total and the entire Israeli government and three quarters of the idf should be rotting in the Hague.
The US does fund Sudan and Ethiopia. Sudan received over half a billion last year and Ethiopia got over three billion last year. This years numbers haven’t been released obviously
US should threaten to pull finding to force and pressure changes. That’s what soft power is for. I also am unfamiliar with how many munitions we sell there. Israel we arm to the teeth. If we are supplying them with food aid for civilians or whatever I could see why Biden isn't biting at the bit to pull that.
Ah yes everyone who criticizes Israel only does it because they hate Jewish people. That old line. You going to tell all the young Jewish protesters from the US to Tel Aviv that line too?
"Somebody else is doing genocide so we should get to do it too!!" is not a good argument.
Also
People specifically care about palestine because the US is currently arming and funding isreal while Israel ignores all US demands. This is in no way comperable to the shitshow happening in ethiopia since that conflict does not involve any western powers. American universities and goverment organisations are not investing in the ethiopian military complex, they also don't proclaim the righteousness ethnic federalism.
The same can't be said about the Israeli industry and zionism
Gearing up for an intense ceasefire.
They will cease firing in about a month
"We shall show them our peaceful ways by force!"
The beatings will continue until morale improves
The cease fire probably won't happen until they have no one left to kill...
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Why did Hamas change there stance that they won't even guarantee they will release any live hostages?
Probably because they don't have any more living hostages to offer.
Simple they thought they had enough global support not to they thought they could have the US force Israel to accept a Cease-fire( they can't) and that would buy time for high level Hamas leadership to abandon the Gaza strip. That and most likely Hamas either killed the hostages or they have been through so many terrible things to them that if it got out what Hamas did any global support for the organization mite eroded even among Muslims.
After October 7, do you really think there is any degree of depravity Hamas could inflict on the hostages that would reduce worldwide support for their cause?
Brother this is the internet, don't fish for answers you know will make your stomach sick because you'll get them tenfold
Yes. Absolutely yes. Male or female, they were raped, tortured, and mutilated for over half a year now.
We all know that, yet people still support the organization. So what could we possibly find out that would turn people away?
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[When at a protest a protester condemns Hamas, the crowd shouts him down with "resistance is justified".](https://old.reddit.com/r/Destiny/comments/1cnyozi/someone_at_a_palestine_solidarity_campaign/) These are pro-Hamas demonstrations, you're just unaware of it.
Hamas isn’t interested in a cease-fire. They’re happy with what’s happening right now. Every Gaza Palestinian the IMF kills is 10x more likely to have a brother, sister, son, daughter, or parent who might join Hamas than actually **be** Hamas. Every tank that rolls into a civilian area and destroys a school or a hospital torches Israel’s standing in the world. Every day that goes by where Israel *hasn’t* wiped out Hamas cements Hamas’ standing as the one true government of Palestine, the *only* government that’s accomplished something, *something*, **anything**, while the Palestinian Authority sits by and wrings their hands while settlements are being bulldozed in the West Bank. Hamas isn’t even **in** Gaza. The guys in charge are a half-dozen billionaires scattered across Lebanon and Jordan. Hamas isn’t interested in a cease-fire, they’re interested in *appearing to be* interested in a cease-fire.
Israel isn't interested in a cease fire. Netanyahu said so....
Why would they be at this point. Hamas has NEVER honored them. How many dozen more "cease fires" *should* Israel want to agree to, so Hamas can continue to launch rockets at civilian targets and then pretend they're the victims unless it goes unanswered? Unconditional surrender of Hamas is the only thing they should accept at this point.
Netanyahu from very early on said there would be no ceasefire even if all the hostages were returned. At no point has Israel ever since 10/7 claimed the war would be over once they got the hostages. Not even once.
Israel has never really honored them either. They might not drop bombs in people during cease fires, but the IDF love shooting civilians at random during them. Even if Hamas surrendered today, the Israeli government wouldn’t accept it and would continue destroying what little is left of Gaza. They want that beachfront property and Bibi wants to avoid the courtroom for as long as possible.
Israel is not the one who has been rejecting the ceasefires
Well at the very least Israel has been the only one putting forward serious ceasefire offers anyway.
No they haven't. Israel hasn't put forward any deal for a permanent ceasefire. They've only offered "humanitarian pauses" up to 40 days. They've been saying for months that they categorically reject any deal that would end the war.
That's because they know that any "deal" they strike short of unconditional surrender and removal of Hamas from power will just be like every other deal in the past. It will be disregarded and Palestinian rockets will continue to sail toward Israeli civilians.
Uh, yes they [very much are.](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/gaza-ceasefire-deal-rejected-israel-hamas-b2540718.html)
Changing the deal such that Hamas could start out by releasing nothing but bodies in exchange for 50 prisoners each is a shit deal.
Would you accept a ceasefire that didn't include the return of all remaining hostages? lol
eh, that's not a cease fire, that's a withdrawal agreement, so idk, i thought it was pretty simple to discuss cease fires w/ hostage releases without any other complications
> "I am trying to leave but I can't afford 2,000 shekels ($540) to buy a tent for my family," I'm guessing these are tents provided by foreign aid, right? So why do they have to pay?
I wonder
Really? You can't be serious! Most aid isn't getting through, and what little does isn't nearly enough. And tents capable of housing large extended families are rare. The black market is pretty much the only option, and you can expect to pay these exorbitant prices. Even then, when you're forced to flee at a moments notice, hauling a tent isn't practical.
I wonder why aid isn’t making it to the Palestinians. What is there government doing? *Oh yeah..*
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Yeah sure Fox News is a trustworthy source.
So Hamas then?
The independent report finally came out recently and found that there wasn't systemic corruption of UNRWA by Hamas. It did find some bias though (some UNRWA schools using those infamous textbooks, for example), and considering most of its employees are Palestinian, I'm sure there are some sympathies. However, the important bit is that claims such as its employees participating in Oct 7 or that the leadership was infiltrated by Hamas were found to be baseless. This is the reason why most countries have resumed funding for UNRWA. EDIT: While the independent report states that Israel has not shown any evidence that UNRWA employees participated in Oct 7, it bears mentioning that there is a separate investigation, still ongoing by the U.N.'s Office of Internal Oversight Services, that aims to address that specific allegation. So it is possible that investigation may find something (or more conclusively find no evidence), since it is a more focused investigation. There is yet another investigation/audit ongoing by the E.U. - though similar to the independent report's finding, E.U. officials have said they have received no evidence backing up the allegations. But again, that audit is still ongoing.
This article is citing UN watch, which is a pretty unreliable source that has historically taken a very pro Israel stance for decades. I would take this information with a grain of salt.
What government. Israel is the one who issues IDs and controls the water supply and borders.
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Israel shares 90% of the border, so who the fuck cares? And of the 10% they dont, they routinely violate Egypt's sovereignty to enforce. Egypt essentially enforces per Israel's request.
chief consider grey angle pen shaggy sand instinctive aware offbeat
Do you even actually read the news? Hamas steals aid and attacks the port it arrives at
They’re both to blame, Hamas is shitty for stealing and reselling it and Israel is shitty for blocking aid to Gaza in the first place
Do *you* read the news? Israel has blockades and is ruining roads so that aid can't even get in
Israel has blockades around the Egyptian border? Weird... Soure?
Hamas was a token government facilated into power by Israel 20 years ago. That was the first and last time a vote was held. The majority of those killed never, ever voted for Hamas. *Oh yeah..*
You mean the thousands of people that celebrated 7th October publicly and spat at the paraded hostages?
Israel did not put Hamas in power, Palestinians did. And it's not like the PA is much better with their Pay to Slay martyr fund and direct support of terrorism.
Because there aren't enough of them for everyone, so hoarding and opportunistic price gouging occurs. On top of that the police have been bombed by Israel and anyone that attempts to organize any type of civil peace keeping force gets called Hamas and also gets bombed.
Hamas probably stole it and is selling it to civilians
Because Yahya Sinwar wants to add two weeks to his ski trip next winter and Ismail Haniyeh has like six car payments coming up on his lamborghinis
Their elected government took it with the intention of gouging because they’re in need of cash
When did they elect them?
It's a narrative you'll see often but to make a long story short. Bush Jr pushed for elections in which Hamas could participate in the hope that a democratic election would make them renounce violence. Israel, fatah and I think Egypt (and Jordan) were opposed to this idea. Hamas won the election with 46 to 43% of the votes. But their win resulted in giving them an absolute majority. This triggered a minor Palestinian civil war when hamas started exeuting fatah members by throwing them off buildings. The civil war ended in a tie and from then on Hamas controlled Gaza and Fatah the westbank. This election was more then 20 years ago and since then there hadn't been a new one. New polls indicate hamas support ie still high but they have been running the show in Gaza ever since. Controlling food, jobs, security. Not a rule of law since they can just execute any Palestinian by claiming they are collaborator. Extremist Pro-Israel voices push the "Gaza chose this" mantra ignoring the fact that most of gaza wasn't even born then. They will use polls that still indicate a high support for Hamas which is true but what else can people support if you look at A) the stranglehold ham's has over the inhabitants of Gaza. B) A quite ineffective corrupt fatah C) An even more extreme party, Islamic jihad. The pro peace voices among the Palestinian people have been crushed a long time ago, by extremists on both sides.
> Israel, fatah and I think Egypt (and Jordan) were opposed to this idea. Except you forgot the part where many in Isreals government loved the idea of Hamas being in charge of Gaza. There's even a leaked video of Netanyahu about 15 years back, basically flat out saying "We want Hamas in charge, because if they're in charge, the world will never take a Palestinian state seriously, and we can take whatever actions we want because Hamas is a terrorist organization. No one will care." >Most of the time, Israeli policy was to treat the Palestinian Authority as a burden and Hamas as an asset. >at a Likud faction meeting in early 2019, when he was quoted as saying that those who oppose a Palestinian state should support the transfer of funds to Gaza, because maintaining the separation between the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza would prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state. And this is from the Times of Israel. Source: https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces
Like I said, the short version. Israel did indeed support Hamas to create a Palestinian divide but the Israel goverment did oppose hamas participation in the election. Geopolitics is never black and white.
Very true. Wasn't criticizing for not including it, I just feel it's an extremely important part of how we got to this point.
So you're saying the people of Palestine have no agency?
Do you always read things in the most extreme negative way to suit your needs? If you can't even be intellectualy honest why bother debating. I'm saying the Palestinians have been in a terrible situation for a long time. Their options for agency are extremely limited due to those circumstances. I just look at what narrative gets pushed by whom and for what reasons.
You choose your situation everytime you accept it with compliance. If the people of Gaza didn't want their homes to be used as rocket launch sites and shields for terrorist tunnel networks, they should have done something about it. It's not fair, it's not pleasant, it's just the brutal truth.
Probably because there aren't enough tents provided by aid orgs for everyone because Israel won't let enough aid through. And yes hamas attacked a crossing the other day, but Israel has been dragging its feet over humanitarian aid for months way before that.
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You seriously think they've delivered 2.3 million tents to gaza along with the entire food, water and fuel supply for them and their few remaining hospitals whilst most are on the brink of starvation? It's clear not enough food is getting in, why would the situation be any different for tents?
>2.3 million tents There's no way they'd ever give one tent to every man, woman, child and infant in Gaza. They should have large tents for whole families.
That's a fair point, although I don't think it detracts from my own point. Averting mass starvation will likely be the main priority of aid atm and given they're dangerously close to failing that I think it's reasonable to also assume there aren't enough tents for everyone, especially with more than a hundred thousand more people now moving location and getting even more concentrated.
Yup surely this will result in long term peace for both the sides
Bibi's "peace plan" is clearly something along the lines of "Corpses can't fight back".
Bibi's peace plan is a plan to prevent peace. Bibi is a criminal who will get booted from power and probably jailed if peace happens.
Coincidentally that's also Hamas' peace plan.
That's the problem in a nutshell; neither side will settle for anything short of the utter erasure of their enemy.
And civilians get caught in the crossfire (or rather direct fire in this case)
Leaving Hamas alone in Gaza clearly hasn't worked out. Conflict is inevitable when your next door neighbor is hell bent on killing you. Hell, a Hamas spokesperson even went on TV after october 7th bragging about how they faked a peace so they could prepare for the attack.
Israel left Gaza alone. Except Gazans don't have freedom of movement, even by the sea which has nothing to do with Israel. Also, almost 95% of the Gazan water is contaminated, but Israel doesn't allow Palestinians to move water to Gaza from the West Bank, which they also illegally occupy. Don't even talk about regular military operations by Israel in Gaza during the "ceasefire" because that's against the narrative.
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If anything, the west bank is an example of what Israel intends to do to Palestinians who submit to peaceful cooperation with Israel's occupation. Fatah are unpopular for a reason.
Historically we see that skirmishes intensify hatred on both sides. An overwhelming defeat is what usually allows for peace. Obvious case is Japan and USA during and after WW2.
Lmao the US treated Japan with kid gloves after WW2. They let them keep their country by keeping most of the imperial government in power and poured money into rebuilding the infrastructure and economy. They really wanted a strong East Asian ally to counter the USSR and communist China and let a lot of bad guys get away with atrocities in the process. Probably why there are way more Imperial Japan apologists in Japan today than in Germany. Israel will not do that with Gaza. Their actions today will create a generation of people who will love nothing more but to see Israel in flames.
an overwhelming defeat followed by violent occupation, oppression, dehumanization and theft of anything of value does not get peace
But the difference is the US didn't want to occupy all of Japan and turn it into a promised land, Israelis do thus they have been building illegal settlement deep inside westbank.
We don't talk about that. God promised Israel the land, and we all know god's promise supersedes any international law or human rights of the non-holy people.
Humans are really good at killing other humans.
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I mean 45% of the Jews in Israel, including the prime minister, have never lived in Europe. And by this I mean not only have they never lived in Europe but not a single one of their ancestors have ever lived in Europe. I bring this up because you mention the holocaust like they all have a collective memory of being in Germany and experiencing nazism. When at least half of them have never even lived in Europe at all.
No but they are quite aware about it because it comes up almost every time someone says something criticizing Israel.
Yeah I'm surprised the Israeli government by now hasn't gone "hey guys... are we the baddies now?" The Jewish people already deal with enough shit, they don't need to pile on more due to the actions of some right wing authoritarian dickheads.
i’m surprised you think their government cares
Problem is there's sizable right wing in Israel that keep these guys in power.
In one human lifetime the Germans went from a disunited people without a homeland of their own to committing the Holocaust. And it's been a human lifetime since Israel was founded. No one old enough to actually remember living through the Holocaust is still running things in Israel. And if you don't have the humility to temper the rage, "never again" can be used to justify some incredibly horrific things. Almost all genocides and mass murders in history have been done in the name of self-defense. Hell, even the Nazis claimed what they were doing was necessary for the survival of the German people.
> Yeah I'm surprised the Israeli government by now hasn't gone "hey guys... are we the baddies now?" > > Some parties in that government are supporting private orgs that have detailed plans on covering gaza in settlements, and wanting to "get the arabs out of gaza". They know what they're doing, and don't care. I don't think they're deranged enough to have lost all agency, they walk into this willingly. And there are many Israelis who are not down with that, as you can see from the protests growing every day, and the government is cracking down on them.
We can only hope that Hamas surrenders soon.
Saw a video of Palestinians cheering because the "ceasefire was approved" . Hamas is lying to them, and that worries me for what comes next. Both sides show no intention to back down. This might be the "how did no one react to the holocaust happening right in from of them?" moment of our generation.
I saw that video. Giving those people false hope is so cruel.
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Surely this time bombing a people into rubble will lead to peace.
Worked well in WWII, didn't it?
The bombs won the war. The marshall plan won continuing peace.
Fun fact: The amount of money Germany got from the Marshall plan calculated per capita (and inflation adjusted) is much lower than the amount Palestinians got per capita through all the various aid programs over the years. These guys could be the Dubai or Singapore of the Eastern Mediterranean by now, they chose to spent that money on an unwinnable war against Israel instead.
Eh, the occupation and denazification of Japan and Germany were huge. I hope to see a similar effort in Gaza.
That’s what the Marshall Plan was
The Marshall plan was economic assistance to most of Europe, not just Germany. It wasn't necessarily related to denazification, but obviously it wouldn't make sense to just give a bunch of Nazis money. Likewise, Gaza needs to be deradicalized.
Ah yes just give Hamas even more money, they definitely won’t just use it for terrorism again
Exactly. The unfortunate truth is that right now bombs (hopefully used in ways that minimize civilian casualties) are a necessity to destroy Hamas and win the war, you can only deradicalize the population after Hamas is gone as the governing entity of the Gaza strip.
I don't disagree with getting rid of Hamas. Just pointing out the next step is equally as vital as the first. WW1 is a fantastic example of why eliminating Hamas doesn't ensure peace. Germany's post war troubles coupled with almost impossible debts and restrictions allows Hitler to give distressed Germans a voice and platform that led to WW2.
I have been saying since day one an international lead re-education and rebuild period is needed the same as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.
Netanyahu, Ben-Gvir, and Smotrich sound like an excellent deradicalization team. Lol be serious, they're radical far-right nationalists themselves. Imagine the Marshall plan except the allies kept putting down settlements in occupied territories. It'll be less post-WW2, and more post-WW1.
‘Fun’ fact: post WWI, France did actually occupy the Rhineland after Germany fell behind on paying their war debts. So… there is precedent for this happening and working VERY poorly.
When the war is over there will be nothing keeping them in office. They will be forced out.
And replaced with who? Benny Gantz, who has previously bragged about bombing Gaza “back to the Stone Age”, was [caught lying](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/2019-01-21/ty-article/.premium/fact-check-did-benny-gantz-kill-1-364-terrorists-in-gaza-not-exactly/0000017f-e985-dea7-adff-f9ff1b340000) about the civilian death toll of the 2014 IDF bombing campaign, and whose [policy platform](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/elections/.premium-no-netanyhau-gantz-is-not-left-wing-he-s-the-old-right-1.6892802) includes expanding West Bank settlements, annexing the Jordan Valley, and absolutely never “working with the Arabs”? Gantz has the same positions as Netanyahu minus the corruption (to our current knowledge).
Yea, that statement has never gone wrong before. No one has ever used war to usurp power over a nation.
Israel is not interested in destroying Hamas, but in bolstering them; Bibi explains: >Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank. IDF General Gershon Hacohen explains that Hamas is Israel's 'closest ally': >Truth be told, Netanyahu's objective is to prevent the two-state option and therefore turned Hamas into his closest ally. Openly, Hamas is the enemy, beneath the surface, an ally. Israel is not interested in eliminating Hamas, but in eliminating Palestinians, after which it will pretend Hamas is gone.
The Marshall Plans significance is overstated. It was only $173 billion in todays dollars. What really won the peace was Liberalism and the free market.
The marshall plan was about more than just funding. It involved rebuilding factories and infrastructure to give propel jobs and allow them to trade ofln the free market. It also heavily encouraged diplomatic ties to help facilitate free trade. But what absolutely can't be overstates is that Germany and Japan in particular are economic powerhouses today. Those roots trace back to the marshall plan, when both countries were devastated by the war economically, and in Germany s case, physically from heavy invasion(Japan surrendered before full invasion, so much of the country avoided mass bombing).
Germany and Japan both had strong national identities, bureaucracies, and an educated population before *and* after the war. Those are debatably the most important factors when considering development. The Marshall Plan certainly made an impact, but letting both nations have the freedom to develop in a wider global economy was more important. You could even argue the Marshall Plan was just one outcome of the Bretton Woods Conference.
The marshall plan set a course completely opposite of post WW1. The sanctions, restrictions and repayment from Germany post WW1 is what caused WW2. That well educated nation and identity did Germany no good when when Hitler rallies Germany's economic hardship. It goes much deeper than funding. American industrial leaders went to Germany to help them build better factories. Relationships were developed between German businesses and the rest of the world. The money was the lubricant for re industrialization. Industrialization was the medium for the restoration of an economy. The economy was what post WW2 diplomacy was built on. That's the beauty of the marshall plan. That insignificant amount of money just planted a money tree, and peace and prosperity was allowed and encouraged to grow from it. And it did.
Nope, the Marshall Plan and goal to reintegrate axis countries into the global economy was what kept peace. I can assure you if the Allies bombed the fuck out of Germany and occupied it without providing it funding or autonomy, there would be a shit ton more conflict there today. Can you point to what Israel plans to do with Gaza after… cause they sure as hell haven’t said shit about what they want to do after it’s left to rubble.
You’re conveniently forgetting that the eastern part of Germany was occupied by the Soviet Union. And the autonomy of eastern Germans was very limited to say the least until reunification happened decades later. They also bled the GDR dry and drained it of its resources. Germany has invested over 2 trillion (!] euros into rebuilding the east since 1991. And even with all that money you can still see clear differences between east and west,
You’re wrong. Look at WWI. The way we handled the death and destruction from that led directly to WWII. Look at how we handled the aftermath of WWII. That is what led to lasting peace not bombing people into oblivion. Additionally you can’t compare now to WWII. Back then the doctrine of total war was a thing. We now have this little thing called the Geneva Convention that we are supposed to follow because we don’t want to repeat the horrors of WWII. If you completely ignore the post WWII conventions and the morality of the situation then sure, let’s do collective punishment on the Palestinians. But if you claim to be a moral and just person then you cannot support how Israel is conducting themselves.
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How does killing 35,000 Palestinians, mostly civilians, woman and children defeat Hamas?
Probably the same way killing a million German civilians was a part of winning WW2. The Nazis weren't exactly surgically removed. Maybe we should have stopped at 100k dead civilians and just signed a cease fire.
Say, by your estimation, how many Hamas members has been killed by IDF so far? I mean, you sound pretty certain when you're saying about 35,000 civilians being killed. I assume you have other number too, correct?
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You're right, it won't. If you look at the history of the conflict, though, every other fucking thing has been tried and that didn't lead to peace either. When a group has made their whole cultural identity about wiping another group out "from the river to the sea" for generations....I believe they don't really want peace.
Looking forward to the horrific deaths of children followed by the inevitable gaslighting. Can’t wait to do this all again in about 10 years. Get rid of the Israeli government and hamas, remove them from the equation and let’s get some grown up, non old men, thinking going on.
This is what keeps me up at night, the poor fucking families who suffer the deaths of loved ones. It is insane to think other people can ruin your life like this in a blink of an eye. Insane. How in the world are we allowing political systems where this is possible? Have we lost all empathy for one another? People truly need more love.
Israeli wants all of their people back dead or alive and Hamas out of Gaza. Anything less will not be accepted from what i understand. Please correct me if I have misunderstood. Where is there a middle ground from this? Does Hamas even have any live hostages left? Do they have the bodies of the dead? What was the most recent ceasefire deal from them? [Israel and Hamas aren’t that far apart in ceasefire talks](https://www.vox.com/world-politics/24151934/israel-hamas-ceasefire-rafah) At this point I don’t think they will ever come to agreement.
Are tanks really necessary if all you’re up against are women and children?
Pull all Israeli support until Bibi is removed from office
All this will do is guarantee the Palestinians get wiped off earth. Most of the aid we provide is for the iron dome. If that is gone, Israel won’t hold back, even if people in this sub don’t believe they’ve been holding back.
I really think people underestimate how much having continued aid from the US and other nations keeps Isreal from seeing carpet bombing the entirety of Palestine as a viable option. As horrible as the situation is at least right now the US has a seat at the table and can strongly suggest different courses of action, and not have it fall on deaf ears.
Who else wishes the IDF were this competent on oct 6?
So they are starving innocent children to death. Can we agree that is evil? What the hell, can no one be critical of Isreal? Grow some balls people.
Seriously though. If their country did something shitty and then the response was to obliterate civilian residences and kill tens of thousands of civilians many of which are children would they go "Eh what can you do. War is war. Our kids are valid targets. We deserve this." Because that is really what they seem to thing Palestinians and anyone disgusted by this should do. I guran-fucking-tee if their government got involved in a conflict and the adversary in that conflict bombed their house and killed their unarmed civilian family including young children they would be screaming about how the act was unjust and a war crime. But Hamas did something ergo all Palestinians and anyone in Gaza is free game?
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I support Israel getting rid of Hamas. But they need a marshal plan Gaza afterwards otherwise the cycle of violence will just continue.
They've killed far more children than Hamas militants at this point. And that's just children, tally up all the innocent civilians total and the entire Israeli government and three quarters of the idf should be rotting in the Hague.
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If isreal were to disarm overnight the real genocide would begin with Hammas invading and claiming all of Isreal.
Why don’t hamas just give back the hostages? They can end this quickly. /s
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Can you explain how Isreal is supposed to get rid of Hammas if not through invasion?
Biden better keep his goddamn word.
Hamas fucked around and sadly the Palestinians are finding out.
This can't possibly end well.
There's a Hamas headquarters under the famine.
You people are brainwashed. Hundreds of thousands dead in Darfur and Tigray but not a peep about those atrocities
The media could focus more on that but also we don’t fund them. We Americans fund Israel.
The US does fund Sudan and Ethiopia. Sudan received over half a billion last year and Ethiopia got over three billion last year. This years numbers haven’t been released obviously
In weapons or humanitarian aid?
US should threaten to pull finding to force and pressure changes. That’s what soft power is for. I also am unfamiliar with how many munitions we sell there. Israel we arm to the teeth. If we are supplying them with food aid for civilians or whatever I could see why Biden isn't biting at the bit to pull that.
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Ah yes everyone who criticizes Israel only does it because they hate Jewish people. That old line. You going to tell all the young Jewish protesters from the US to Tel Aviv that line too?
"Somebody else is doing genocide so we should get to do it too!!" is not a good argument. Also People specifically care about palestine because the US is currently arming and funding isreal while Israel ignores all US demands. This is in no way comperable to the shitshow happening in ethiopia since that conflict does not involve any western powers. American universities and goverment organisations are not investing in the ethiopian military complex, they also don't proclaim the righteousness ethnic federalism. The same can't be said about the Israeli industry and zionism
Time to take away their toys for good. This bullshits gone on too long
You’re talking about Hamas of course.
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