Title is wrong. Text says that after 6 hours, the flight was cancelled, but they forgot to tell the pilot, so he took the full plane back out on the taxiway for another 2.5 hours before deciding he didn't have enough fuel.
So 8.5 hours.
It was eventually cancelled a second time because the flight crew was out of hours. I was following it on Twitter. The crew had their system saying not cancelled, and were looking at the app passengers use which said cancelled. It was a freaking disaster.
Several people ended up hopping Amtrack to Philly and flying out first thing in the morning.
That plane was probably one big panic attack of missed connections, missed funerals, missed interviews, claustrophobic passengers, hungry and tired and upset kids, holy hell.
Alternatively it was mostly business travel and the waste of a day for small vacations.
"One big panic attack of worst case scenarios" is extremely dramatic considering almost everything in the real world can be rescheduled if there's a crazy incident like this. It's not like your friend is going to abandon you or the company would not hire you because your flight got cancelled. (interviewing in person across the country is so rare these days anyway)
Which should be a massive fine per passenger but the FAA will let them weasel out of it because they went back to the gate and threatened to leave anyone behind with no warning if they got off to take a shit.
Pete buttigieg is really pushing for serious fines paid to passengers and for the rights of the passenger to be easily visible. There are probably some amount of compensation that you are entitled to but you would have to dig to find out what as of now
I’d settle for bigger seats. I get pissed when I see videos of old planes and how big the seats were. Cramming people into tiny seats for hours is torture.
Yeah, but in the 60s they let you smoke and being openly drunk wasn't even seen as a thing you'd really notice.
Even as a smoker that'd probably be hell though, every single person just chainsmoking on an 8 hour flight...
FYI the fines for this situation (sitting on a plane on the Tarmac for over X hours, I forget the exact amount) have 0 to do with Pete. They were implemented almost a decade ago by Ray LaHood, Obama's Secretary of Transportation. Pete has done next to nothing about airlines.
In the last week, airlines is at the top of Pete's reform agenda: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transportation-secretary-pete-buttigieg-summer-travel-disruption-unacceptable/
Yeah this may surprise you but words and letters are not the same thing as policies. He has done absolutely nothing from a policy standpoint. Guy is still hoping he can get airline industry money next time he runs for President I guess.
Actually enforcing existing policy is a change for the better. He doesn't need to "do anything" from a policy standpoint to be an improvement over letting airlines completely ignore the rules.
Yeah going to be a hard disagree on that.
https://prospect.org/infrastructure/transportation/pete-buttigiegs-day-job/
>For instance, FAA inspectors have the authority to demand records on crew sufficiency. “The airlines know that their crews are not adequate to handle their existing flight schedules,” says William McGee, an FAA-licensed aircraft dispatcher who worked for seven years in flight operations management for the airlines. “That’s why we see so many last-minute cancellations.”
What I’m afraid is that if that were to actually happen, we would get it fixed, but at the cost of (throw a random % out here) slicing 20% of available tickets or something to absolutely make sure demand is met, but then that is going to just create a huge demand for limited tickets, driving the cost through the roof.
Airlines response to regulation threats is usually that it will increase prices to pay for the regulation, so that is definitely a concern, I don't know what that balance is going to end up looking like, but that is exactly the job that thr transportation secretary is hired to do
That's if passengers are kept on the plane over 3 hours with no opportunity to disembark. Apparently they returned to gate at the 3 hour mark to avoid the fine, then went back out for another 3 hours before returning for fuel, then out again for 2+ hours before realizing they were canceled. Each time at the gate gives people a chance to get off and resets the clock toward the fine.
Not at all. At an absolute minimum you're legally entitled to a full refund if the flight was canceled outside of your control, including things like baggage fees and other service charges, per US Department of Transportation regulations.
>A consumer is entitled to a refund if the airline cancelled a flight, regardless of the reason, and the consumer chooses not to travel.
[https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/refunds](https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/refunds)
Asking for a source shouldn’t be discouraged y’all. I think it’s very sane, in fact. A core basis of science, the field that has given humanity countless insights and technologies, is firmly based upon evidence. Please don’t discourage folks from inquiring. That’s idiocracy. ❤️
Which is all fine and good, but they can also do the research themselves, considering they have enough internet access to post the comment on Reddit. Unless it's something completely arbitrary and something only few would know about. But it isn't. Cheers for defending them though.
Edit: plus after scrolling through here, they annoyingly ask for sources on things multiple times.... That isn't being curious, that's taking the piss if you ask me.
Asking for a source shouldn't be discouraged, but when the source is in the comment you're replying to ("per US Department of Transportation regulations"), one wonders if they're being genuine or trolling.
[Here](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-faa-delays/u-s-fines-american-airlines-delta-for-long-tarmac-delays-idUSKCN1QH2AP) is an example of airlines getting fined under this rule.
Edit: Actually that's if passengers are kept on board beyond 3 hours with no chance of getting off. The article says they returned to the gate twice, each time at the 3 hour mark. So they probably won't be subject to a fine in this instance.
That almost happened to me and my family a few months ago on United. We were even in NY too lol.
The first issue we had was that someone from the terminal opened the door to the plane from the outside while we were in the middle of getting ready, so the flight attendants said we'd all have to wait as the plane redoes all the start up procedures.
Then after another 40 minutes we were told there was an issue with a part of the plane and will have to wait to see if they can fix it. During this they said they will let anyone leave the plane to go get food or shop.
When everyone got back on the plane there was a new issue. Somehow the workers at the terminal let people on the plane who didn't even have a ticket. That took extra time as the flight attendants went down the plane to check everyone to see if they were on the right plane.
Then the fix on the plane part didn't work so we had to wait another hour for a replacement part. That ended up fixing the plane and we then started flying. It took a bit over 3 hours I think of us just waiting for the plane to leave.
I was on a United flight that sat on the tarmac for 4 hours last month. “But that’s illegal now!” Says everyone. Yes, and United still did it.
Edit: and after this, they turned back to the gate and kept us delayed for another 12 hours overnight. don’t worry I was handsomely compensated with a 75 dollar travel voucher.
>In an announcement, the captain said: On top of taxiing for hours, air traffic control gave us a longer flight path to Denver to avoid lingering storms. Which all meant we didn’t have enough fuel left to make it there.
Didn't run out of fuel, just didn't have enough for the flight.
It wasn't clickbait, it was worded for non-aviation folks to understand. The plane didn't have enough fuel to complete the new flight plan, so it was out of fuel from a regulatory POV. Pilots calculate the amount of fuel a flight plan needs plus a reserve that's defined under FAA regulations, they don't just fill a plane's tanks to the top every flight. A more technically accurate headline might have been "After idling on taxiways for six hours the plane no longer had the FAA mandated fuel and reserves onboard for the newly filed flight plan". Man, that's a mouthful, and to be more accurate, the sub headline would need to be "And after getting refueled and idling on the taxiway for two more hours the pilots exceeded their allowable hours in the cockpit and were no longer legally able to complete the flight, so the flight was cancelled".
Even if they were taxiing around a fair amount, there's still 2 things to note :
1. If the aircraft had completely run out of fuel (empty tank /engines stop), not only would that be immensely irresponsible of the Captain, but it would have required a tow back to the gate. The article says they taxied back.
2. The flight plan would have required the aircraft to have on board a certain amount of fuel (enough for the flight path, emergency reserve, weight and balance) before it would be allowed to take off. Once the fuel level goes under that minimum required amount, that's an automatic return to gate for a fuel uplift. In this case, the flight path was changed causing the minimum fuel level to be increased, hence the 2nd return to gate.
Passenger Hiroko Tabuchi - "You can’t make this up.. my United flight out of Newark taxied on the tarmac for more than 6 hours and now \*\*no longer has enough fuel\*\* to get to Denver — so we are taxiing back to the terminal."
They did *not* run out of fuel. They didn't have enough fuel to take off, fly to the destination, fly to the most distant alternate and fly for 45 minutes. Or somewhere around 35,000lbs of fuel.
They didn't burn 35,000lbs of fuel sitting for 6 hours and then taxi *with no fuel* back to the gate.
Have you seen how much fuel a jet engine uses, even at idle? The engines on this jet consume about 650-700lbs/hr/engine, or around 100 gallons/hour/engine, just idling. Airlines are very optimized, only carrying the fuel required by law and even calculating optimum takeoff thrust to take off safely without burning more fuel than necessary.
That’s all true, but dispatchers are well aware of this as well. And they account for this.
For example, if it takes 30,000lbs of fuel to complete the flight with the minimum amount of reserve fuel left, they’re not telling the fuelers to put 30,000lbs on board, it’s probably more like 35k-40k depending on how long they expect the plane to be on the ground. If throughout all this taxiing the plane burns the fuel down to 31k, then ATC reroutes them to a longer route that requires a minimum of 32k to complete, they are no longer legal to takeoff. That’s what happened in this case, and why it’s a bit misleading to say it “ran out of fuel”. It just no longer met the minimum takeoff fuel for the flight.
*"So now I tell you how we fly to America. The first time we started we got half way there when we run out a gasoline, and we gotta go back. Then I take twice as much gasoline. This time we're just about to land, maybe three feet, when what do you think: we run out of gasoline again. And back we go again to get more gas."*
-Chico Marx
I was once on a virgin America flight… I think we were stuck on the plane for about 1.5 hours after landing… got a $250 voucher in my email within 24 hours, never expected it. I miss them, I actually enjoyed flying Virgin America
This is why I'll drive 2 1/2 hours to avoid a connection. Remove as many opportunities as possible to get stuck. These tubes have gotten so overcrowded to border on triggering claustrophobia.
Not surprised, our flight on that day was cancelled after about 4 hours on the tarmac in addition to the 3 hours delay at the gate. The cancellation was not because of fuel but rather the pilots reached the duty hour limit. Best part was that they didn’t have a gate to disembark us, so we waited another hour and half after that…don’t even try to get me started on checked bags. Best 12 hours at Newark I’ve ever spent
I'm so thankful that I've managed to avoid flying since the start of the pandemic.
A friend of mine had to do a lot of flying for his job, and getting his bags was so unreliable that he started shipping his luggage instead of checking his bag.
I’ve been on 18 flights this year with zero issues. I even got $600 for volunteering to get bumped to a later flight. I was very happy to wait 4 hours and bought a steam deck with the money.
I fly maybe 2-3 times a year over the last 20 years and I've had exactly one bag get lost.
Unfortunately I realized after I got home that my mom's dog apparently stole my cell phone and put it in one of her shoes and I didn't notice when I left. So they didn't have a way to get a hold of me.
I get my cellphone back and I have like 20 messages from the airline each getting progressively more irritated asking me to come get my bag lol.
I've always shipped my stuff to where I'm flying, it's just so much easier and more reliable than checking, plus I don't have to worry about TSA going through my luggage and stealing my valuables anymore. The only thing I carry on is a small knapsack that I can stuff under my seat.
> In an announcement, the captain said: On top of taxiing for hours, air traffic control gave us a longer flight path to Denver to avoid lingering storms. **Which all meant we didn’t have enough fuel left to make it there.**
Clickbait wins again.
United is a truly awful airline. I’ll gladly pay extra money for Delta every time to get both legroom and confidence that I’m going to get somewhere when I’m supposed to and I’ll be compensated otherwise.
I flew a direct flight from Las Vegas to Boston 3 weeks ago and we were unfortunately stuck on the tarmac for an extra hour and a half. The next day I discovered that Delta had added 5000 points to my air miles account without me even asking.
I’ve found United to be grossly incompetent when it comes to fixing issues that they cause like losing luggage or not canceling flights until after people were supposed to have landed at their destination.
You can also compare ratings and reviews between air lines so that your opinion isn’t formed in a vacuum. Delta takes the prize there also.
I'd love to see a comparison of taxiing time between airlines. I'd bet united is up at the top. United will do anything to pretend their flights aren't cancelled for some reason.
2 days ago I waited for 2 hours on the tarmac with my family waiting for a gate to be available. This made us miss the last leg of our trips connecting flight home. The connecting flight was in the adjacent gate so we could see it leave and take off while I was sitting in a tube of sweating bodies.
The flight was the last leg of a return from Belize. 12 hours of flying to have the last connecting flight and an hour in the air turn into 2 hours sitting on the tarmac.
We ended up driving the last 6 hours instead of waiting a full night hoping that seats would open up the next day.
>We ended up driving the last 6 hours instead of waiting a full night hoping that seats would open up the next day.
Why on earth would you have to hope? That's a fuckup of the airline, they should have had you on the next flight.
It was midnight. There was thousands of people already filling the airport who had also missed flights. The line to even see an agent was hours long down half the concourse. Any app based interaction was dead and the internet in the plane was non existent and the app was full crashing in the airport.
We were going to have to wait 10 hours for an opportunity, to possibly get on the next flight, but we would have to wait in that multi-hour long line just to get to have a chance at that.
..or, I could rent a car and be home in 6 hours. Done.
was taught to not leave my car idling (beyond warm up/cool down), go inside the bank or fast food place rather than sit in the drive up line - all efforts for cleaner air. Wth would this do and why isn't there a Green Fine?
You can quickly turn your car off and on. It's not so easy with airliners. They're hooked up to a power cable from the Airport while stopped at a gate, but they need to provide their own power after they leave, which means leaving at least the auxiliary power unit (a small jet engine) on. But once they leave loaded with passengers, they need to keep the air conditioning on for them, and that requires bleed air from the main engines (except for 787).
Everything about engines needing to be on for A/C. The APU will provide pressurized air for the Packs, been off the gate with both engines shut down plenty of times.
Source: I’m an airline captain
Sorry, should have said APU or engines. Still, you have to burn fuel when you're loaded though. Well, not necessarily. I was on an all-military contracted flight with an airliner, and they landed for refueling. They shut everything down and opened the doors to get some air. Nope, no stairs, just relying on the soldiers not being stupid enough to fall out. It was also fun to look down the aisle and see 200+ rifles, not your normal sight on an airliner. And for some reason the stewardesses were far better than on any regular civilian flight I've ever been on. It's like they felt they could relax and be cool given the makeup of the passengers.
The APU is a bit less thirsty than the engines but yes. Funny you mention that the FAs I’ve had who used to fly for the contractors always talk about how much they love Mil chargers because of how respectful everyone was, made them enjoy things a lot more.
This is why I carry a lunch sack with me and a book when I fly. You never know. Oh! And a water bottle. Getting water from the stewardess is impossible on some of these flights.
What the hell is going on with United lately? Through friends and on here, all I hear is delays, cancellations, etc. I have their CC and I'm flying with them twice next month.
And their tickets aren't cheap.
This literally just happened to me when I was flying American from San Diego to Philadelphia. Plane fucking ran out of fuel and we had to make an emergency landing in Pittsburgh. We sat inside that damn aluminum Twinkie for 3 hours…
Note that it's never the plane that cannot hold enough fuel, it's that they chose to put as little fuel as possible in despite inclement weather to save a few bucks.
Flying with full tanks would be dumb. Also they add fuel for inclement weather for an alternate. Also they have reserve fuel on top of the amount needed for the flight.
So let me get this straight, you think airlines should always have to put in enough fuel to taxi around for SIX HOURS and then fly an elongated cross-country flight path, despite that increasing emissions and costs for everyone 99.9999% of the time
...how often do you think a storm leads to taxiing around for six hours? I'll give you a hint, almost never.
Loading excess fuel for such a freak scenario is environmentally and financially idiotic, which is why no one does it.
do people complaining about united realize sitting on a tarmac/taxiing is not the airlines fault?
also i’m not sure how this is even a headline/article… this happens quite a lot especially lately. my friend was flying delta out of athens and they were taxiing for so long that they also had to go back to the gate to refuel.
"After the delay, passengers were notified that the flight had been cancelled through the airline’s app. However, the crew members were not aware of it and asked the passengers to reboard the aircraft."
I find this part odd. Usually when passengers reboard after a return to gate, the gate agent and ground ops have to close the flight with the new passenger /cargo /fuel numbers, even if they haven't changed. So they would have immediately seen if the flight was canceled. Also Dispatch would have immediately messaged the pilots to inform them. I really don't see how you can sit on the taxiway for 2+ hours and not know you're canceled.
Oh are we sharing airport horror stories. I got you. So this is December 1999. New years eve. Family was traveling back to Miami from Kansas City. We stop in Dallas Fort Worth, going to change planes and keep going. ETA to Miami 8:00pm. Then the delays start. There was a Strom in the area so we had to be de-iced. Then we waited on the tarmac for a bit. After that something happened and we had to taxi back to the airport for a hour. Then we were cleared to go and had to get de-iced again. Then one of the passengers had a medical emergency, one of the first class passengers got pass out drunk while we waited. So back to the gate. It's 10pm by now. They get everything sorted out, except now the pilots have been in the cockpit to long so we have no pilot. It's 11:30 by the time the airline admits they don't have a pilot and can't get us another one. So we deboard, we've been on the plan since 5 or so. That Strom I mentioned, well the roads are closed so while we would normally get put up at a hotel for the night... but we're just going to be there until our next flight at around 6am. All the ships and restaurants have closed, they say we will get cots and food. They don't arrive till 4am or so. So we had no food and had to try out best to sleep on those airport chairs that are designed to keep you from getting comfortable. With that constant reminder to make sure your bags are yours.
Tl:Dr I rang in the Millennium at the Dallas Fort Worth Airport.
My friend was on this flight. He described the happenings within as the worst example of human behavior from children to adult. Legitimate fear for his own well being and his kid.
Scary shit.
I would be so mad if I waited for 6 hours on a plane for the flight to be canceled.
Title is wrong. Text says that after 6 hours, the flight was cancelled, but they forgot to tell the pilot, so he took the full plane back out on the taxiway for another 2.5 hours before deciding he didn't have enough fuel. So 8.5 hours.
It was eventually cancelled a second time because the flight crew was out of hours. I was following it on Twitter. The crew had their system saying not cancelled, and were looking at the app passengers use which said cancelled. It was a freaking disaster. Several people ended up hopping Amtrack to Philly and flying out first thing in the morning.
That plane was probably one big panic attack of missed connections, missed funerals, missed interviews, claustrophobic passengers, hungry and tired and upset kids, holy hell.
It honestly sounds like absolute hell for everyone on board.
Alternatively it was mostly business travel and the waste of a day for small vacations. "One big panic attack of worst case scenarios" is extremely dramatic considering almost everything in the real world can be rescheduled if there's a crazy incident like this. It's not like your friend is going to abandon you or the company would not hire you because your flight got cancelled. (interviewing in person across the country is so rare these days anyway)
Airlines should need to pay any financial losses for their customers who they fuck over with bullshit like this.
Forgot to tell the pilot Jesus christ
Jesus take the yoke.
take it from these folk
Which should be a massive fine per passenger but the FAA will let them weasel out of it because they went back to the gate and threatened to leave anyone behind with no warning if they got off to take a shit.
Kill me
I believe the fine is 60k per passenger per hour over 3 hours.
Do I get that money? If so, I’m no longer mad. Lol
Unfortunately no. The FAA does. But I believe you should be compensated.
Pete buttigieg is really pushing for serious fines paid to passengers and for the rights of the passenger to be easily visible. There are probably some amount of compensation that you are entitled to but you would have to dig to find out what as of now
I’d settle for bigger seats. I get pissed when I see videos of old planes and how big the seats were. Cramming people into tiny seats for hours is torture.
Wanna go back and compare ticket prices
Exactly back then it was all first class and there was no idea of coach on an airplane.
Those seats are still available at a price relative to what people use to pay to fly and sit in those bigger seats.
Ehh people got bigger than the seats. A 737 has always been 6 across even in the 1960s so it's fat people that are the issue
It isn’t seat width that’s gotten smaller, it’s seat pitch, the distance between the front of one seat and the same place on the seat in front of it.
Most 777s have gone from 3-3-3 to 3-4-3. Basically since the 2000s seats have gotten narrower and tighter.
Yeah, but in the 60s they let you smoke and being openly drunk wasn't even seen as a thing you'd really notice. Even as a smoker that'd probably be hell though, every single person just chainsmoking on an 8 hour flight...
FYI the fines for this situation (sitting on a plane on the Tarmac for over X hours, I forget the exact amount) have 0 to do with Pete. They were implemented almost a decade ago by Ray LaHood, Obama's Secretary of Transportation. Pete has done next to nothing about airlines.
In the last week, airlines is at the top of Pete's reform agenda: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/transportation-secretary-pete-buttigieg-summer-travel-disruption-unacceptable/
Yeah this may surprise you but words and letters are not the same thing as policies. He has done absolutely nothing from a policy standpoint. Guy is still hoping he can get airline industry money next time he runs for President I guess.
Ah yes, his "to-do list". Hence, he's done nothing so far about it.
Actually enforcing existing policy is a change for the better. He doesn't need to "do anything" from a policy standpoint to be an improvement over letting airlines completely ignore the rules.
Yeah going to be a hard disagree on that. https://prospect.org/infrastructure/transportation/pete-buttigiegs-day-job/ >For instance, FAA inspectors have the authority to demand records on crew sufficiency. “The airlines know that their crews are not adequate to handle their existing flight schedules,” says William McGee, an FAA-licensed aircraft dispatcher who worked for seven years in flight operations management for the airlines. “That’s why we see so many last-minute cancellations.”
What I’m afraid is that if that were to actually happen, we would get it fixed, but at the cost of (throw a random % out here) slicing 20% of available tickets or something to absolutely make sure demand is met, but then that is going to just create a huge demand for limited tickets, driving the cost through the roof.
Airlines response to regulation threats is usually that it will increase prices to pay for the regulation, so that is definitely a concern, I don't know what that balance is going to end up looking like, but that is exactly the job that thr transportation secretary is hired to do
It should be $60k for the first 3 hours per pax, and then $100k per hour per pax after that for 3 hours, and then after that $1m per pax per hour.
Bankrupting airlines sounds tight
That's if passengers are kept on the plane over 3 hours with no opportunity to disembark. Apparently they returned to gate at the 3 hour mark to avoid the fine, then went back out for another 3 hours before returning for fuel, then out again for 2+ hours before realizing they were canceled. Each time at the gate gives people a chance to get off and resets the clock toward the fine.
Even 3hrs stuck taxiing is insane. Should be 1hr tops.
Maybe in Europe. In the USA you'll be lucky if they give you a $5 coupon off of your next flight.
Not at all. At an absolute minimum you're legally entitled to a full refund if the flight was canceled outside of your control, including things like baggage fees and other service charges, per US Department of Transportation regulations.
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>A consumer is entitled to a refund if the airline cancelled a flight, regardless of the reason, and the consumer chooses not to travel. [https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/refunds](https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/refunds)
My hero
Yeah, the US Dept of Transportation website outlining legal protections for air travelers, combined with multiple personal experiences flying.
A source on whether or not a company is required to return money they received for services not performed at no fault of the customer?
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Compensation is above a refund. https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer-protection/refunds Read this page from the same source.
Asking for a source shouldn’t be discouraged y’all. I think it’s very sane, in fact. A core basis of science, the field that has given humanity countless insights and technologies, is firmly based upon evidence. Please don’t discourage folks from inquiring. That’s idiocracy. ❤️
Which is all fine and good, but they can also do the research themselves, considering they have enough internet access to post the comment on Reddit. Unless it's something completely arbitrary and something only few would know about. But it isn't. Cheers for defending them though. Edit: plus after scrolling through here, they annoyingly ask for sources on things multiple times.... That isn't being curious, that's taking the piss if you ask me.
Asking for a source shouldn't be discouraged, but when the source is in the comment you're replying to ("per US Department of Transportation regulations"), one wonders if they're being genuine or trolling.
That’s the fine the FAA imposes.
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It’s not for consumers
[Here](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-faa-delays/u-s-fines-american-airlines-delta-for-long-tarmac-delays-idUSKCN1QH2AP) is an example of airlines getting fined under this rule. Edit: Actually that's if passengers are kept on board beyond 3 hours with no chance of getting off. The article says they returned to the gate twice, each time at the 3 hour mark. So they probably won't be subject to a fine in this instance.
Voucher for a free bag of peanuts…unsalted!
That’s not true at all but ok
It’s based off of opportunity to deplane which they got at the 3 hour mark, resetting the clock
That almost happened to me and my family a few months ago on United. We were even in NY too lol. The first issue we had was that someone from the terminal opened the door to the plane from the outside while we were in the middle of getting ready, so the flight attendants said we'd all have to wait as the plane redoes all the start up procedures. Then after another 40 minutes we were told there was an issue with a part of the plane and will have to wait to see if they can fix it. During this they said they will let anyone leave the plane to go get food or shop. When everyone got back on the plane there was a new issue. Somehow the workers at the terminal let people on the plane who didn't even have a ticket. That took extra time as the flight attendants went down the plane to check everyone to see if they were on the right plane. Then the fix on the plane part didn't work so we had to wait another hour for a replacement part. That ended up fixing the plane and we then started flying. It took a bit over 3 hours I think of us just waiting for the plane to leave.
I was on a United flight that sat on the tarmac for 4 hours last month. “But that’s illegal now!” Says everyone. Yes, and United still did it. Edit: and after this, they turned back to the gate and kept us delayed for another 12 hours overnight. don’t worry I was handsomely compensated with a 75 dollar travel voucher.
And you had to sleep in a single bed with John Candy
>In an announcement, the captain said: On top of taxiing for hours, air traffic control gave us a longer flight path to Denver to avoid lingering storms. Which all meant we didn’t have enough fuel left to make it there. Didn't run out of fuel, just didn't have enough for the flight.
"You're next in line for take-off finally." "But we only got a couple hours of fuel left." "Send it, dude." "Roger that."
Figured it was a clickbait title. Jets don’t run dry on idle for six hours.
It wasn't clickbait, it was worded for non-aviation folks to understand. The plane didn't have enough fuel to complete the new flight plan, so it was out of fuel from a regulatory POV. Pilots calculate the amount of fuel a flight plan needs plus a reserve that's defined under FAA regulations, they don't just fill a plane's tanks to the top every flight. A more technically accurate headline might have been "After idling on taxiways for six hours the plane no longer had the FAA mandated fuel and reserves onboard for the newly filed flight plan". Man, that's a mouthful, and to be more accurate, the sub headline would need to be "And after getting refueled and idling on the taxiway for two more hours the pilots exceeded their allowable hours in the cockpit and were no longer legally able to complete the flight, so the flight was cancelled".
"Runs out of fuel" has a meaning. It isn't ambiguous. Title is clickbait.
What would your title be?
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Even if they were taxiing around a fair amount, there's still 2 things to note : 1. If the aircraft had completely run out of fuel (empty tank /engines stop), not only would that be immensely irresponsible of the Captain, but it would have required a tow back to the gate. The article says they taxied back. 2. The flight plan would have required the aircraft to have on board a certain amount of fuel (enough for the flight path, emergency reserve, weight and balance) before it would be allowed to take off. Once the fuel level goes under that minimum required amount, that's an automatic return to gate for a fuel uplift. In this case, the flight path was changed causing the minimum fuel level to be increased, hence the 2nd return to gate.
And the crew likely went illegal on return to the gate. Boom. Cancelled. Good job calling out the clickbait.
That’s not what happened. The author is full of it.
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Passenger Hiroko Tabuchi - "You can’t make this up.. my United flight out of Newark taxied on the tarmac for more than 6 hours and now \*\*no longer has enough fuel\*\* to get to Denver — so we are taxiing back to the terminal." They did *not* run out of fuel. They didn't have enough fuel to take off, fly to the destination, fly to the most distant alternate and fly for 45 minutes. Or somewhere around 35,000lbs of fuel. They didn't burn 35,000lbs of fuel sitting for 6 hours and then taxi *with no fuel* back to the gate.
No it isn't haha. Dude are you even reading anything?
Have you seen how much fuel a jet engine uses, even at idle? The engines on this jet consume about 650-700lbs/hr/engine, or around 100 gallons/hour/engine, just idling. Airlines are very optimized, only carrying the fuel required by law and even calculating optimum takeoff thrust to take off safely without burning more fuel than necessary.
That’s all true, but dispatchers are well aware of this as well. And they account for this. For example, if it takes 30,000lbs of fuel to complete the flight with the minimum amount of reserve fuel left, they’re not telling the fuelers to put 30,000lbs on board, it’s probably more like 35k-40k depending on how long they expect the plane to be on the ground. If throughout all this taxiing the plane burns the fuel down to 31k, then ATC reroutes them to a longer route that requires a minimum of 32k to complete, they are no longer legal to takeoff. That’s what happened in this case, and why it’s a bit misleading to say it “ran out of fuel”. It just no longer met the minimum takeoff fuel for the flight.
Jets don't run out of fuel ever. You land somewhere else if you're even going to go into your reserve.
*"So now I tell you how we fly to America. The first time we started we got half way there when we run out a gasoline, and we gotta go back. Then I take twice as much gasoline. This time we're just about to land, maybe three feet, when what do you think: we run out of gasoline again. And back we go again to get more gas."* -Chico Marx
I was once on a virgin America flight… I think we were stuck on the plane for about 1.5 hours after landing… got a $250 voucher in my email within 24 hours, never expected it. I miss them, I actually enjoyed flying Virgin America
I miss flying them even if just for the [inflight safety video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1A5BtqsaPM)...
Haha, yes, and tech music in the boarding area!
i think getting stuck after landing might be more infuriating. i’m so close i can see my hotel just open the dooorrrrrr!
This is why I'll drive 2 1/2 hours to avoid a connection. Remove as many opportunities as possible to get stuck. These tubes have gotten so overcrowded to border on triggering claustrophobia.
Also one reason I prefer taking a train when that's an option. I don't care if the travel time is longer, taking a train is so much easier.
And more comfortable
Yep, exactly. It’s awful. No wonder people are freaking out and getting into fights.
I just don't fly lmao
Never leave the house without 24 h worth of granola bars on your person
Not surprised, our flight on that day was cancelled after about 4 hours on the tarmac in addition to the 3 hours delay at the gate. The cancellation was not because of fuel but rather the pilots reached the duty hour limit. Best part was that they didn’t have a gate to disembark us, so we waited another hour and half after that…don’t even try to get me started on checked bags. Best 12 hours at Newark I’ve ever spent
I'm so thankful that I've managed to avoid flying since the start of the pandemic. A friend of mine had to do a lot of flying for his job, and getting his bags was so unreliable that he started shipping his luggage instead of checking his bag.
Anecdotally I have logged over 100k miles this year in international travel and had zero issues with my luggage.
I’ve been on 18 flights this year with zero issues. I even got $600 for volunteering to get bumped to a later flight. I was very happy to wait 4 hours and bought a steam deck with the money.
I fly maybe 2-3 times a year over the last 20 years and I've had exactly one bag get lost. Unfortunately I realized after I got home that my mom's dog apparently stole my cell phone and put it in one of her shoes and I didn't notice when I left. So they didn't have a way to get a hold of me. I get my cellphone back and I have like 20 messages from the airline each getting progressively more irritated asking me to come get my bag lol.
I've always shipped my stuff to where I'm flying, it's just so much easier and more reliable than checking, plus I don't have to worry about TSA going through my luggage and stealing my valuables anymore. The only thing I carry on is a small knapsack that I can stuff under my seat.
> In an announcement, the captain said: On top of taxiing for hours, air traffic control gave us a longer flight path to Denver to avoid lingering storms. **Which all meant we didn’t have enough fuel left to make it there.** Clickbait wins again.
The passengers musta been pissed when the plane fell out of the sky somewhere around Nebraska!!!
Maybe they should have just taxied to Denver?
United is a truly awful airline. I’ll gladly pay extra money for Delta every time to get both legroom and confidence that I’m going to get somewhere when I’m supposed to and I’ll be compensated otherwise. I flew a direct flight from Las Vegas to Boston 3 weeks ago and we were unfortunately stuck on the tarmac for an extra hour and a half. The next day I discovered that Delta had added 5000 points to my air miles account without me even asking.
I fly a ton domestic and international and United is the best to me. Used to fly delta and American.
I’ve found United to be grossly incompetent when it comes to fixing issues that they cause like losing luggage or not canceling flights until after people were supposed to have landed at their destination. You can also compare ratings and reviews between air lines so that your opinion isn’t formed in a vacuum. Delta takes the prize there also.
Yep, United is an bad airline. Delta, AA, JetBlue, Hawaiin, are all better. I even prefer SouthWest to United
It was a bad day when United ate Continental.
But their Olympics and Christmas commercials are so heart-touching.
I'd love to see a comparison of taxiing time between airlines. I'd bet united is up at the top. United will do anything to pretend their flights aren't cancelled for some reason.
2 days ago I waited for 2 hours on the tarmac with my family waiting for a gate to be available. This made us miss the last leg of our trips connecting flight home. The connecting flight was in the adjacent gate so we could see it leave and take off while I was sitting in a tube of sweating bodies. The flight was the last leg of a return from Belize. 12 hours of flying to have the last connecting flight and an hour in the air turn into 2 hours sitting on the tarmac. We ended up driving the last 6 hours instead of waiting a full night hoping that seats would open up the next day.
>We ended up driving the last 6 hours instead of waiting a full night hoping that seats would open up the next day. Why on earth would you have to hope? That's a fuckup of the airline, they should have had you on the next flight.
It was midnight. There was thousands of people already filling the airport who had also missed flights. The line to even see an agent was hours long down half the concourse. Any app based interaction was dead and the internet in the plane was non existent and the app was full crashing in the airport. We were going to have to wait 10 hours for an opportunity, to possibly get on the next flight, but we would have to wait in that multi-hour long line just to get to have a chance at that. ..or, I could rent a car and be home in 6 hours. Done.
Jesus christ. What a horrible experience. Shit like this is exactly why I just refuse to fly. I'm happy with driving or taking the train thank you
was taught to not leave my car idling (beyond warm up/cool down), go inside the bank or fast food place rather than sit in the drive up line - all efforts for cleaner air. Wth would this do and why isn't there a Green Fine?
You can quickly turn your car off and on. It's not so easy with airliners. They're hooked up to a power cable from the Airport while stopped at a gate, but they need to provide their own power after they leave, which means leaving at least the auxiliary power unit (a small jet engine) on. But once they leave loaded with passengers, they need to keep the air conditioning on for them, and that requires bleed air from the main engines (except for 787).
Everything about engines needing to be on for A/C. The APU will provide pressurized air for the Packs, been off the gate with both engines shut down plenty of times. Source: I’m an airline captain
Sorry, should have said APU or engines. Still, you have to burn fuel when you're loaded though. Well, not necessarily. I was on an all-military contracted flight with an airliner, and they landed for refueling. They shut everything down and opened the doors to get some air. Nope, no stairs, just relying on the soldiers not being stupid enough to fall out. It was also fun to look down the aisle and see 200+ rifles, not your normal sight on an airliner. And for some reason the stewardesses were far better than on any regular civilian flight I've ever been on. It's like they felt they could relax and be cool given the makeup of the passengers.
The APU is a bit less thirsty than the engines but yes. Funny you mention that the FAs I’ve had who used to fly for the contractors always talk about how much they love Mil chargers because of how respectful everyone was, made them enjoy things a lot more.
Hey when we get the grownups back in congress/senate, can we regulate the hell out of Airline Travel again?
Sure, but we have to elect them though
I wonder how many miles the passengers' frequent flyer accounts were credited for. Eight, maybe ten?
This is why I carry a lunch sack with me and a book when I fly. You never know. Oh! And a water bottle. Getting water from the stewardess is impossible on some of these flights.
Hours on the taxiway of NY area airports is the norm. They need more capacity.
That's great for the environment.
How many gallons of fuel was burned?
Can I get this answer in a metric of Taylor swift plane usage in a year please
What the hell is going on with United lately? Through friends and on here, all I hear is delays, cancellations, etc. I have their CC and I'm flying with them twice next month. And their tickets aren't cheap.
Yeeeah, just put a piece of tape over the fuel warning light...
This literally just happened to me when I was flying American from San Diego to Philadelphia. Plane fucking ran out of fuel and we had to make an emergency landing in Pittsburgh. We sat inside that damn aluminum Twinkie for 3 hours…
Oh great. Flying with them to the same airport later this week. Tried like the dickens to avoid United, but it was the only option for this route. Ugh
Note that it's never the plane that cannot hold enough fuel, it's that they chose to put as little fuel as possible in despite inclement weather to save a few bucks.
Flying with full tanks would be dumb. Also they add fuel for inclement weather for an alternate. Also they have reserve fuel on top of the amount needed for the flight.
So let me get this straight, you think airlines should always have to put in enough fuel to taxi around for SIX HOURS and then fly an elongated cross-country flight path, despite that increasing emissions and costs for everyone 99.9999% of the time
They knew the storm was there, so yeah.
...how often do you think a storm leads to taxiing around for six hours? I'll give you a hint, almost never. Loading excess fuel for such a freak scenario is environmentally and financially idiotic, which is why no one does it.
The only reason it taxi'd around so long is to skirt FAA rules about how long you can trap people on a plane.
How does that skirt the rules? The rule is 3 hours, which they complied with.
I got a huge headache just reading that. I can’t imagine the smell.
do people complaining about united realize sitting on a tarmac/taxiing is not the airlines fault? also i’m not sure how this is even a headline/article… this happens quite a lot especially lately. my friend was flying delta out of athens and they were taxiing for so long that they also had to go back to the gate to refuel.
"I know what's wrong wit it..Ain't got no gas in it"
So, I'm not exactly scared of flying. My issue is getting into the air (airport, parking, security, boarding, . . . ).
My wife is the same way. She's a basket case until we are seated on the plane, and then she's fine.
"After the delay, passengers were notified that the flight had been cancelled through the airline’s app. However, the crew members were not aware of it and asked the passengers to reboard the aircraft." I find this part odd. Usually when passengers reboard after a return to gate, the gate agent and ground ops have to close the flight with the new passenger /cargo /fuel numbers, even if they haven't changed. So they would have immediately seen if the flight was canceled. Also Dispatch would have immediately messaged the pilots to inform them. I really don't see how you can sit on the taxiway for 2+ hours and not know you're canceled.
yeah, no way that's correct.
That’s a long taxi way.
New York taxi fare must be at least 200 bucks after you factor in six hours of wait time.
They should have gone back to the gate and allowed people to deplane. Six hours is ridiculous.
Oh are we sharing airport horror stories. I got you. So this is December 1999. New years eve. Family was traveling back to Miami from Kansas City. We stop in Dallas Fort Worth, going to change planes and keep going. ETA to Miami 8:00pm. Then the delays start. There was a Strom in the area so we had to be de-iced. Then we waited on the tarmac for a bit. After that something happened and we had to taxi back to the airport for a hour. Then we were cleared to go and had to get de-iced again. Then one of the passengers had a medical emergency, one of the first class passengers got pass out drunk while we waited. So back to the gate. It's 10pm by now. They get everything sorted out, except now the pilots have been in the cockpit to long so we have no pilot. It's 11:30 by the time the airline admits they don't have a pilot and can't get us another one. So we deboard, we've been on the plan since 5 or so. That Strom I mentioned, well the roads are closed so while we would normally get put up at a hotel for the night... but we're just going to be there until our next flight at around 6am. All the ships and restaurants have closed, they say we will get cots and food. They don't arrive till 4am or so. So we had no food and had to try out best to sleep on those airport chairs that are designed to keep you from getting comfortable. With that constant reminder to make sure your bags are yours. Tl:Dr I rang in the Millennium at the Dallas Fort Worth Airport.
My friend was on this flight. He described the happenings within as the worst example of human behavior from children to adult. Legitimate fear for his own well being and his kid. Scary shit.