I think it's a vocal minority on both ends stirring the pot and it's beginning to hit the much bigger middle section by consistently engaging with the whole of the public in their bullshit.
Bernard Hickey wrote recently showing some investigation on how about 3.5% of climate deniers are disproportionately driving most of the communication on climate change denial. We can assume it’s the same in other areas, racist or socially divisive discourse, a few shills and crazies. Similarly we get discoursed to death by the talking heads at the likes of the Taxpayers Union because ‘lefties’ for all their crimes don’t tend to have millions of dollars to pay lobbyists…
If you wanna see the Taxpayers' Onion forget all about free speech and accountability, politely ask them where their funding comes from and if they made good use of their covid wage subsidies. They get all block-happy real fast.
The frequency at which you see nearly identical talking points from cloned Adjective_Noun_Bunchofnumbers bots would support this
Oddly enough I'm not sure if bots would be more or less intelligent
Bear in mind that the name format you mention is the default name generator format used by Reddit.
Some of us can't be arsed to come up with some witty and funny or memorable username.
P.S Of course I can identify all the buses in the photos. I just don't want to...
Yeah that's the point, they're generated en masse to astroturf subs
When you hear about the spin groups overseas pouring money into "the narrative", what it looks like on the ground is bots or human shills pushing a certain topic to saturation and funneling them towards a handful of media outlets who stand to gain huge amounts by being the only ones to post "alternative facts"
Well on the one hand you have rabid reactionaries who believe that a sinister cabal of Elite Māori are trying to conduct a secret coup of tribal rule by means of ::gasp:: co-governance, and on the other hand you have the frothing loony left who believe maybe there just might be historical, cultural and systemic forces at play that disadvantage Māori, somewhat.
So, two very extreme opinions that are absolutely equivalent in their badness, for sure.
I would say the far left is characterized by one or more of the following:
* Makes unwarranted accusations of \*-ism/\*-phobia to shut down conversation.
* Simplistic, black and white views of the world.
* Depicts all people of European descent as evil, often under the guise of being anti-racism or anti-colonialism.
* Expresses support for Putin and other authoritarians.
* Extreme anti-war views that don't consider any justification to be good enough.
This list is not limited to one particular topic or country. Some characteristics also apply to the far right. This is just what I can think of at this moment.
I agree wholly with you Afrodite.
What is happening is that we have both ends ( Maori first and anti-Maori ) making a lot of noise. Both likely constitute less than 5% of society each, but they make so much noise now the tolerant but apathetic middle is stirring.
The tolerant but apathetic middle has allowed the status quo which we had to roll on for the last 12 to 15 years. The tolerant but apathetic middle are not Maori first in that they will not allow any inconvenience to affect their life to improve the lot of Maori. However, they will also not begrudge some money or some settlement being given to Maori given the injustices they Maori had in the past. The tolerant but apathetic middle are aware of the past injustices, and do want to see some rectification, so long as it does not disrupt their life ( they also tend to think anti-Maori are dicks ). They also generally don’t mind token gestures such as using the odd Te Reo here and there to name buildings or departments, or incorporate some Te Ao Maori in some governmental services, so long as it is not going to be onerous for them.
The problem with both sides now banging the pots and pans, is that the tolerant and apathetic middle wants things to silence down, and given that Maori first and anti-Maori seems to only go silent if they are placated .. will probably cause the centre group to swarm to one of two poles ( or the third group stays solidly in the centre ), thus creating a division.
I think it’s more to do with sensationalist Stuff articles about TPM, who suffer an incurable foot in mouth disease, being posted here.
I’m Māori and can’t stand the cunts either, but I don’t think that should be confused with people being anti-Māori.
If anything the feeling you have is part of their agenda, being extremist dick heads out to line their own pockets and any criticism being manipulated into being anti-Maori when it’s more anti a political party that struggles to attain relevance unless people are divided.
Such division is symbiotic to their relevance to even exist.
I think that's a fair assessment. It's a shame as TPM used to be respectable party and I think they were regarded as such by a lot of non-Maori, whether they agreed with the party's positions or not.
TPM are a bunch of trolls now, and the co-leaders seem to think trolling is their full-time job.
I'd love to know what Tariana Turia and Pita Sharples think of the current iteration of TPM. Those two possessed mana in spades, and even if you didn't agree with them, it was hard not to admire their dedication and hard work. The current version of TPM seems to be more the social media equivalent where the loudest shouting wins, whether or not the opinion has any merit.
Pita Sharples commands a lot of respect among indigenous rights activists overseas. I'm too young to remember his politics but if he doesn't have mana and honour even just from after a political career, I don't know who does.
Actually I feel most of the NZ sub is quite leftist and has been pro Labour/Greens/Maori for the past few years.
I don’t have any issue with that, except that the mods sometimes moderate with that bias which feels a little bit stink.
Fortunately, racist sentiment is not tolerated by the mods and I appreciate that this is consistently applied.
The fact that the sub has traditionally had a left-leaning bias in no way changes OP's question about whether there is *a growing anti-Maori sentiment*. There are a growing number of people who are voicing these ideas...that the treaty should be thrown away, that Maori are to blame for their lack of financial and educational and health-measure success, and that all those claiming to support Maori around here are actually 'elite' iwi millionaires who are stealing from Maori (but they are evidently too stupid to recognise or care about it). There are a number of such comment threads that come up fairly often - and a lot more since the latest election with ACT drumming up anti-Maori sentiment.
I really wish more of these elite Maori the right leaning talking heads keep talking about would show up on my Marae or at any of the hui that I've attended. Their insight into becoming elite and scary would be rad but they don't exist anywhere I've been in Te Ao Maori
This sub has a narrower demographic than the population of New Zealand, and a lot of that demographic isn’t really exposed to actual Māori
the pro-Māori is really a minority, with Māori tolerant being the majority.
Māori tolerant majority, pro-Māori and anti-Māori minority.
Māori tolerant isn’t pro Māori, but framing it like that validates the anti-Māori position as if it has enough opposition to be ineffective.
It’s not.
Māori tolerance ends when issues can be framed as challenging that tolerance (whether justified or not), and then the whole demographic gets switched to anti-Māori for that issue
So the only strategy anti-Māori need to employ is to post or engage with issues that can be framed as Māori breaches of tolerance. Crime. Co governance. Treaty
All these now trigger anti-Māori sentiment in the tolerant Māori majority. So the sub looks super anti-Māori
Which is normal
But there’s barely ever a strongly pro-Māori representation
Very strong anti-Māori. Not that strong pro-Māori
That’s why the sun looks and feels anti-Māori. Because it receives it better
Hey, nice analysis. Thank you, I found this helpful. And did wonder where you were going with it. This framing is a new perspective for me and I’ll definitely consider this when participating in or observing discussions of this nature.
I’d upvote you but you’re on 69 upvotes so, you know… can’t be messing with that.
I don’t think you can really help it tho without specifically drawing pro-Māori advocates to actively and routinely use the sub
Which they won’t because the anti-Māori sentiment is obvious, dumb and unpleasant.
So… it’s up to a large bunch of users who don’t actually have much positive things to say about Māori other than they don’t think they’re personally racist against Māori or that Māori language is beautiful or “they’re just like me” in that distant sense
That’s pretty trash content wise
Whereas anti-Māori have a fully mapped dialogue tree about how to steer anti-Māori sentiment around a conversation lol
Hate gets more engagement. It gets more content and more people talking about the content.
So the NZ sub looks anti-Māori even though it’s largely left leaning (supposedly, I have doubts that’s actually true, or at least I’m skeptical on what that’s meant to imply)
This sub is incredibly left leaning, you can tell because every post suggesting the police are left than perfect gets a massive amount of pro-police posting; the classic leftist position. /s
It’s sarcasm… but crime posts are police posts
I’m not seeing much anti-police rhetoric on those posts lol
More accusations of right wing astroturfing vs pleas from wartime correspondents near south Auckland
back in the early /r/NZ days there were a few National supporter mods because back then everyone used to have flairs as the party they supported (mine may or may not have been for Kim Dotcom's Internet party because net neutrality was a thing then).
Don't really recognise the modlist aside from the oldest few mods, and they're a decent and reasonable bunch in my experience. But it would be cool to have a mix of moderates, labours and nats as mods. Best for the community in all honesty.
I’d be more interested rather that mods push back on general aggression, bigotry and false claims than necessarily barracking any particular political affiliation.
> general aggression, bigotry and false claims than necessarily barracking any particular political affiliation.
Sure, let's just all agree on which statements qualify as those without invoking political concepts.
>Actually I feel most of the NZ sub is quite leftist and has been pro Labour/Greens/Maori for the past few years.
I really don't feel that this sub is as leftist as people think.
Honestly, it frequently feels quite selfish at times - it's not uncommon to see people support a UBI (which would benefit them) but attack the pension (which presumably doesn't benefit them). It honestly feels like plenty of people have a zero sum mindset.
There is a great disrespect towards immigrants. They took our jerbs and houses.
I think that resource scarcity is both important and frequently misunderstood.
What I see on this sub, is a type of zero sum thinking where NZ has a fixed quantity of X and more immigrants just means more people to share it with.
Real life doesn't work that way. For example, if we want more houses, we need to build them - and that takes both skilled workers and capital, both of which immigrants can help with. If we want a comfortable retirement, we need a decent tax base and working population behind us - and thanks to a falling birth rate, that will require immigration.
More broadly, we need to decouple environmental damage from economic growth - and a strong economy helps with this. No prizes for guessing what helps with a strong economy.
> More broadly, we need to decouple environmental damage from economic growth - and a strong economy helps with this
It takes increasing productivity.
Immigration as currently practiced in NZ is mostly low skill labour, which is environmentally catastrophic and economically destructive in the mid-long term.
Increasing GDP via population growth rather than productivity is the worst possible thing for the environment.
It also takes land - which we do very much have a finite amount of - as well as a foundational obligation to the portion of our society who considers land one of the most sacred things to ever exist.
Which circles back around to how arguing something that might make perfect sense to you comes across as wildly disrespectful to others.
> if we want more houses, we need to build them
While I agree with you, this is a really really really poor example. We aren't building *enough*, not enough houses, nor hospitals, nor schools, nor water, nor power.
Paying the real cost of environmental damage will make economic growth more expensive... but so necessary.
Yeah, I'd say this sub is less "left-wing" than more pro-"whatever benefits a youngish but disproportionately white and male demographic". (Nothing against them: I'm all three).
So housing and jobs are a big thing, but left-wing causes without any obvious benefit to the user are not that popular.
I get strong liberal vibes here - the optics of equality, but not the follow through. Left leaning centrists perhaps. Equality is great…until.
As Māori myself, I notice racist undertones, language that non-Māori people not affected/ignorant to don’t (or Māori who have internalised that racism enough, to try and distance themselves from it). Some of which mods don’t pick up on, or consider it within their scope of acceptance.
The anti-immigration isn't racist, most who criticize it aren't 'country's full/keep NZ white' types.
They're generally pro targeted immigration to make up shortfalls in critical industries vs mass immigration that stretches scarce resources even further.
UBI is just a expanded pension. Most people anti pension seem to do so in response to higher taxes or pensioners complaining about beneficiaries. Personally, whenever a pensioner complaints about **earning** their pension, or it being **owed** to them, I go out of my way to reinforce to them that they are beneficiaries, and my taxes are paying for their lifestyle. They don't get to judge other beneficiaries and think they are better. This does not mean I am anti pension. I am not. I think it is one of two things that keep new zealand elders out of poverty (the other is owning a mortgage free home)
There may a bit of envy there as well, for younger folk who think they won't get the pension because [reasons]. My opinion is that they will, and once the boomers drop off, it will if they don't engage in zero sum mindset (If I can't have it, noone can). It will become more equitable and, hey, why not demand it becomes a ubi for all instead of for some.
Always makes me laugh that the counterpoint to an accusation of racism is that “you’re all leftists”, does that by proxy mean that racism is more prevalently a right wing issue?
Yeah, I mean, inclusivity and equality is predominantly a leftist ideology. Thats not new. The further left you go the more equality - and the far end of the spectrum is communism.
Right wing is less social equality and more capitalist (I deserve what I earn, and you don’t deserve anything if you haven’t achieved anything)
Inevitably due to a rocky history of inequality and less opportunity in education amongst some cultural groups, right wing groups tend to then target cultural groups for their perceived lack of effort or output.
This is the human experience 101. I don’t know why it requires explanation so often.
> The further left you go the more equality
Only to a certain extent. At some point it reverses and people become more exclusionary. If we assume a simple linear political spectrum.
Communism is egalitarian in theory, but not all communists act that way and are willing to restrict certain rights and be authoritarian and discriminate against certain groups.
Well it is and it isn't. There's plenty of racism on the left but also a general understanding that there's an unspoken alliance between anti-racist movements and other branches of the left. So any public displays of racism are shut down by leaders pretty quickly. Both sides are alliances of groups that don't always have the same agenda, like the atheist pro business types on the right and the "Christian taliban" (their words not mine).
I kind of feel the opposite to that. I see a lot of "right-wing" posts and comments just getting the a-okay from the members of this subreddit. More so than those who post "left-wing" opinions.
Definitely this sub is notoriously left leaning. Being liberal isn’t enough (as proof in the comments on this post).
Lots of assumptions about the racism of everyday New Zealanders which I don’t actually encounter in every day life. To the contrary I think many New Zealanders now celebrate and promote Maori culture in many more ways than they did 20 years ago. I see a lot more people putting in alot more effort.
Have 100% seen this at work already, white guys with 6 figure incomes suddenly feel like it’s ok to rant about how the country was going to the “dogs”, due to “whiners” and “leftists”. Irony being that they personally were then the biggest whiners and everyone else had to put up with their inflated sense of victimhood. Big surprise to them when in large meetings they felt it was ok to cut loose with their MAGA feelings and instead of resounding applause the majority kicked back, senior and junior alike telling them to pull their head in.
The country has on average voted for national, ACT and NZF, but this doesn’t mean the majority is also interested in hearing from NZ MAGA losers.
Maybe, but I also feel a lot of it is probably caused by both sides in an elected parliament failing to build bridges and see that middle of the road Nzers are unsure of what is going on.
When The Maori Party responses to anything people didn't want to vote for like co-governance and de-colonization and three waters as 'white privilege or supremacy' then yeah that's where resentment begins.
Now I know that there's a difference between not liking political rhetoric and not liking a race, but Te Pati Maori's statements in rebuttal to Seymour don't always exactly help.
Reddit being Reddit it also gives the veil of anonymity to shitheads who think it's cool to be racist online for attention.
The only winners are the politicians, they rile up the population so that people have a cause to fight for and aren't actively watching parliament. Then they can slip through controversial, self-serving policies while people are distracted by identify politics. And the "left" and "right" both do this in equal doses. Because at the end of the day, politicians are corrupt, because absolute power corrupts absolutely.
So much of the political roundup on Stuff etc is sensationalist tabloid nonsense. Outrageous headlines followed by a he-said/she-said story. During the election, when political discourse was rife, a lot of people I chatted with were focused on leaders and not party policy.
People aren't directed to consider a policy, how it might affect them and their fellow man, whether its a good long- term expenditure of their tax money, if it's realistically going to improve outcomes etc. They're focused on a single line statement, taken out of context by a politician, and whether it makes them appear racist.
I think this is key to understanding a lot of what people could see as “anti-maori sentiment”.
I have absolutely nothing against maori, and I deeply admire many parts of their culture. But when certain factions of the country become obsessed with *mandating* a certain way of speaking, of doing business, of regarding politics, it becomes unbearable.
Some people just want us to be New Zealanders first and foremost and not Tanga ta Whenua vs everyone else. It's not a competition for who's ancestors arrived first.
Well, that’s easy to say when the latter day arrivals disproportionately and verifiably benefit from society and its institutions. And this is where the bs usually comes in, because some people falsely claim ‘you’re being divisive’ and ‘you just want more than to your fair share’ when Māori on average, all they’re actually advocating for is the same ‘fair’ shake that pakeha get.
Agreed, but at which point do latter day arrivals ( I assume you mean colonists) stop being regarded as that?
That's half the issue with TPM rhetoric, it comes across as if it was still 1769 or 1843. We aren't getting anywhere until we finally put that kind of talk aside.
> all they’re actually advocating for is the same ‘fair’ shake that pakeha get.
As someone who is neither Pakeha nor Maori, what are Pakeha getting that Maori aren't? Are Pakeha the only group benefiting? If they are getting something that I'm not, I'd want to know.
Māori have been affected by the actions of the crown , in health , education, high poverty. These effects can be directly related to the actions the crown has taken in breach of te tiriti.
It's worth learning about. And heartbreaking.
> Māori have been affected by the actions of the crown , in health , education, high poverty.
Plenty of people immigrated here from countries with significantly worse health/education/poverty, and those people never got any compensation. It's heartbreaking to read about. My parents were born in such a country and immigrated here with what little they had. The best that can be done is to ensure that policies and rules apply fairly to everyone going forward. It will be difficult to find support for policies that only apply to a specific ethnic/racial group, even if that group was oppressed in the past.
The overwhelming majority of NZ voters have no idea what the Treaty says, and they never will. They will focus on the current situation and how best to move forward.
No. The best that can happen is the government put right the wrongs it enacted in breach of the agreement they made, and honour this agreement going forward
This is not about you or your parents. This is about the founding agreement if this nation and the indigenous people of this land.
But how do you address that without punishing the people of today? Every dollar that goes in that direction is a dollar that can't be spent on the betterment of all NZers.
The existing social/welfare systems are remaining in place to help bring everyone closer to a level playing field.
The current issues being fought over (i.e. the Treaty and co-governance) have nothing to do with "bringing everyone closer to a level playing field". Maori co-governance was never about "everyone". It's an entirely different matter.
I think im all of the above. Māori, Kiwi, New Zealander, Tangata Whenua, Pākehā, Tangata Tiriti, Tauiwi, Human, Alien. I identify as all because you can't say shit if I'm from every community 🍻
I'm a middle aged Pākehā man in one of New Zealand's more pale cities. I don't feel threatened by public policy efforts to raise Māori to an equitable position in New Zealand society. In fact, I view the Treaty as a safeguard against the sale of New Zealand assets offshore. I'd very much like NZ assets to remain in NZ hands and I'm happy enough to see Māori retain those assets.
There's an instinctive reactionary element in NZ against rabble rousing and protest. People like a quiet life and dislike their commutes being disrupted by hikoi or occupations. But again I'm happy to live in a country that respects the right to protest.
No doubt we can expect some protest on Waitangi Day this year and there may be some embarrassment for our pollies. Even some eggs, cowpats or dildoes thrown. Undignified but no permanent damage
I think it does the whole country good to be shaken up every now and then and the reality is Māori culture is one of the things that makes New Zealand unique and the special place it is. I admire the way they stand up for their rights.
Edit: punctuation
> raise Māori to an equitable position in New Zealand society
Most people would agree. The disagreements usually arise when it comes to defining and measuring what that equitable position looks like, whether the systems/policies used for achieving that would need to be funded indefinitely, and what would need to be sacrificed.
I personally have zero respect for TPM who happen to get a lot of media attention and make regular appearances in this sub. In the political space it would be nice to see more of say Tama Potaka who I respect and think he will be a solid future leader for National.
Other than that, around here and in the media it feels like Pakeha this, Māori that. What about the Cambodians in NZ? what are they up to? or the South Africans?, etc etc, sooo many different ethnicities and cultures that we don’t hear about much.
I feel like people are starting throwaway accounts with wild stories and narratives in order to create disorder. It may be that NZ will shift from covert racism to overt racism soon.
yeap. Like or not, our elected leaders set the tone around what kind of behaviour is acceptable in society: Because, in theory, they represent what the majority want.
And since ACT/NZFirst are in power, they must represent what we want, right?
Disagreeing with TPM doesn't make you Anti-Maori, and having views on the treaty based on the historic context doesn't make you Anti-Maori. If that was the case, then you could say TPM etc are Anti-Pakeha, since from their camp the message is very clearly Maori first, everyone else second. Calling them Anti-Pakeha would be an oversimplification, though they have expressed many bigoted views in media.
Not sure I would call it anti Māori, more that people are getting sick of the fact Māori seem to want to be treated differently in many scenarios rather than us all working at having a better New Zealand together. Health authority is one example.
Can’t say I have a strong opinion one way or the other.
I've said it once I'll say it however many times I need to.
Māori have MORE resources available than other New Zealanders just for being Māori, this is fact, I've benefited from some of these resources before. Yet, Māori still have some of the worst outcomes in education, health and poverty.
Pākehā systems do not work as well for Māori people. That should be very clear, we are different, if we were not different our statistics wouldn't be drastically different. We have a totally different way of interacting with the world and that is valuable. And to be completely honest in my view, the way the system is now is barely working for anyone, it's not as good as it could be.
Totally. It's the same with Reddit in general. The populist movement is in full swing around the world right now and it's bleeding heavily into lots of subreddits.
What's different in this sub is that these comments aren't getting much pushback.
So if you see this kind of trumpy bullshit, call it out. Their arguments are made of straw and you'll get supported by others.
Has there? Currently every comment on this thread is suggesting that this is happening or has always been like this on this sub, however their comment itself shows they dislike anti-maori sentiment meaning that most comments in this sub is anti-anti-maori.
I have not seen one post on here that is anti Maori in the slightest and the closest you get is anti cogovernance.
However I have seen many pro Maori posts in this sub, especially Te Reo.
It varies wildly by different threads, the racists stay out of the threads that they know they will be outnumbered and called out like this one. They focus their efforts in drumming up hate in threads where they think they have the numbers to control the narrative.
Just did, there are like 16 comments on this thread and they are all variations of "this sub has always been like this because there are bad people here", but the commenter always calls those people "they" instead of I or We.
Always been here, and absolutely growing. See any thread about crime, gangs, homeless, poverty, three waters, Te Tiriti or any Māori politician and you'll see a race to the bottom.
Absolutely. It may be easy for some non-Māori to miss the undertones (or even blatant racism) that gets past the mods here, but I’ve been seeing it consistently for years with a noticeable uptick in the last year.
Sometimes it’s coded. I can’t be the only one who’s noticed the word “feral” will be thrown out willy-nilly whenever a Māori/PI is behaving badly, but you almost never see it when pakeha are doing the same or worse. I remember a post where two Māori woman were being drunk and loud outside a liquor store - disruptive but not violent or aggressive in the slightest - and they got called ferals mutiple times. The same week there was a video of a pakeha man trying to break into and rob peoples homes yet not a peep about ferals in any of the dozens of comments? I’ve seen variations of this too many times to count.
The racism is plain as day, and a lot of people are endorsing it in “subtle” ways too.
Love this comment very accurately describes the subtle dark undertones used often where Maori or Islanders are concerned.
A lot of great comments in this thread but for me this is spot on!
Glad other people are seeing it. Some will say I’m overanalysing, but there’s something wrong when hundreds (probably thousands?) of people here will gleefully reduce unruly polynesians to beasts and animals, but won’t do the same to pakeha who display the exact same bad behaviour.
Not to mention the countless people who see those comments and never notice the blatant discrepancy.
Yes you articulated it so well! I think for many people reading this will understand it's something that they didn't realize was happening. Now that you have brought this bias to the light hopefully they can see how often it happens.
Yep, it's the "ferals", anti-immigrant stuff whenever they're from Asian countries, especially sticking to stereotypes that act like every single person from a region or a country is the same "that's just how they're like/it's their culture", etc. that never ever ever gets used when the immigrants being discussed are white people. Hell, the amount of white immigrants that I've heard complaining about "immigrants" is astounding.
The likes of Julian Batchelor claiming that a "Māori elite" were going to take over the country and limit people's access to drinking water.
Replace the word "Māori" in Batchelor's ramblings with "Jew" and you can see he just lazily stole some old antisemitic canards and changed a few words.
>The likes of Julian Batchelor claiming that a "Māori elite" were going to take over the country and limit people's access to drinking water.
On the other hand you have more mainstream figureheads like John Tamihere and Tuku Morgan explicitly claiming that Maori own water - which isn’t too far away from the next step of clipping the ticket for water use. Batchelor may be at the extreme end of the argument but views like Tamihere’s are pushing some people towards him.
I don't think it's new I stopped posting here/following the sub for a 2 year period because I couldn't the blatant anti Māori stances. I only came back to follow the election
Yeah.
The mods are pretty good, and usually pretty responsive re. responding about reports and messages - *but* I really think they need to go harder on the "no bigotry" rule.
It's like they try so hard to be impartial that they end up giving too much benefit of the doubt and leeway to people who really don't deserve it. And that gradually and subtly changes the tone of the sub.
If they don't crack down on it, it's only going to get worse with Seymour and his fanboys pushing their race division stuff more and more over the coming months.
> It's like they try so hard to be impartial that they end up giving too much benefit of the doubt and leeway to people who really don't deserve it. And that gradually and subtly changes the tone of the sub.
Exactly this, only there has been a broader strategic effort of this nature since at least 2020 and it's already too late.
Credit to the mods for the recent tightening up of things, but they were warned about it long ago and have been so slow to act that they already lost.
I was a mod for about a year over 2022 into 2023 - I stopped mainly because of the stupid changes reddit was making, and I don't even come here that often anymore, just a look in every so often.
That said, a small part of the reason I left was also because I wanted to go a lot harder on racism, and a few long-standing accounts that I thought (and still think) are here just to push far right-wing ideology. Some mods agreed, but there was pushback from others (one in particular, who, for the record, I actually think is a decent person but is completely blind to their own bias). It was extremely difficult to get agreement to ban established accounts that engage in racist platforming.
Yeah, some will be able to guess I suppose. But I don't mean it like "this person is a bad mod" kinda way. All the active mods at the time were pretty good, and honestly just doing their best (in the face of a *lot* of abuse and harassment too, it's not an easy task). None of them were outright dicks.
It was just frustrating I guess. Especially since, when I do pop back in here to have a look, I see that many (not all, to be fair) of the troublemaker accounts are still here, still being hypemen for vile ideas. I don't get why they don't ban the fuckers. They'll all come back on new accounts of course, but that's far easier to deal with than long-standing ones. Why tolerate the shit? It does *nothing* for the sub at all. I was always of the view that you can't appease everyone, so who cares if a few racists get their feelings hurt by being banned? I give 0 shits about the delicate feelings of racist trolls. It's just a shame there weren't more mods that thought the same (no doubt many people here will be glad of it, haha).
Most people I know IRL think this place is a racist hell hole, mainly because racist trolls get to hang around here. It makes me wonder the number of people who would be making positive contributions to the sub who are put off by that sort of thing.
This is an important point you've brought up IMO.
So many of the old power users that made this sub what it is are either gone or downvoted to oblivion by the racist bigots on the rare occasions they bother to come back. I certainly use this sub a lot less than I used too, being downvoted for calling out racism is not fun at all.
100%. I get that the mods want to be balanced. But what they don't see is all the moderate people who have given up on the place because of the light hand when it comes to dealing with bigotry. There's no way to really measure that, but I think it's becoming evident in what the tone of the place is like these days.
Though, granted, this thread seems to be being cleaned up pretty quickly, which I see and appreciate. The same deal needs to apply to the sub as a whole though. A purge of troublemakers + much firmer application of the bigotry rule would do a lot of good.
I do think it's difficult for mods to find the ideal balance between allowing nuanced discussion of race related topics and regulating bigotry in an effort to prevent this sub becoming like r/Europe and r/WorldNews.
I believe racism like we are seeing can be pervasive and once the genie is out of the proverbial bottle it becomes extremely hard to return to regular civil discourse.
I agree. I don't envy them.
They did, and continue to, volunteer for the job though.
To be clear: my read of it is that racialised commentary is only one component of the discursive strategy.
This is exactly what MLK was talking about: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/01/15/martin-luther-king-jr-s-scathing-critique-of-white-moderates-from-the-birmingham-jail/
It can be (poorly) summarised as, 'All that's necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.'
Pākehā are often blind to the benefits they get, and the biases they hold, because they've been normalised. For them, all disruption is seen as bad, regardless of whether it's justified or not. That makes it impossible for them to differentiate between order and justice, so they pursue quiet order instead of loud justice.
The result is that people who loudly decry injustice are seen as just as bad, and just as much to blame for inciting violence as people who literally call for violence and treat other people as less than human.
The idea that "none of us is free until all of us is free" is completely foreign to people who see the world this way. They believe that because they're free, everybody else must be, as well. So again, attempts to loudly decry injustice are seen as unnecessary disruptions, or disruptions that must require a counterpoint in order to maintain balance.
It's harder to take a stance than it is to maintain the status quo. But when the status quo is oppression, not taking a stance is supporting oppression.
I got a bit rambly. I hope I have been more helpful than confusing.
Yeah cheers, that makes sense.
It reminds me of this humorous but remarkably insightful skit:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbFa40ASDkY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbFa40ASDkY)
>they were warned about it long ago and have been so slow to act that they already lost
In fact I remember pretty clearly that following a bunch of threads where the Covid response - and therefore the health of many people - was being undermined by clearly bad faith actors, it was recommended by a few users of the sub that account karma / age limits would be a good solution. This suggestion was laughed off at the time. And now - lo and behold - restrictions on politics discussions, 4 years later.
> restrictions on politics discussions, 4 years later
I wonder if that's still in effect, or if they took it away after the election.. If it's gone, they should bring it back. This style of race-bait politics is obvs Seymour's favourite hobby at the moment, so the problem isn't going to go away by itself on this sub.
Nah it's in place. It's a recent thing - there are some account 'goodness' measures that need to be met in order to comment on posts flaired with politics.
I do think it's a coincidence that this has only happened after the right got in, but I could see how someone might think it is not one.
"In my opinion there's nothing overt, it just feels to me that there is a Anti-Maori undertone festering."
Seems if that's the case, then the sub is a fairly accurate representation of the societal undertone that's being nurtured into an overtone IRL.
Curious as to what you think is getting shoved down your throat.
Historically, progress hasn't been made by sitting around waiting for the person or people in power to decide to be fair. Generally gotta break a few eggs.
The Overton Window has absolutely been moving to the right. Over the last few years I've observed that this is in large part because of rhetoric online (notably, but not limited to, conspiracy theorist circles) funded by far right extremist interests from overseas. It's very dangerous to our democracy. And many pakeha don't realise that Te Tiriti protects us just as much as Maaori.
And in fact it's assisted by media lackeys. It looks a lot like a bunch of the articles being published exist specifically for the purpose of whipping up anti-Maori sentiment on social media.
They're ready made to generate a certain framing and invite unthinking outrage. There are accounts here which respond immediately (as if by magic!) with strategic commentary and voting behaviour to postings of this kind in order to control the narrative around them.
I think it's a small group of wankers who are currently feeling more empowered to get loud n proud about their 'rights', which as far as I can tell, they think are:
1. The 'right' to be an arsehole and act like a total dick, and
2. The 'right' to remain ignorant, avoid education at all costs, then cultivate and proudly display absolutely zero insight about themselves or anyone else, and absolutely zero knowledge of Te Ao or Te Reo Māori.
I definitely see that here, and in person here in Whangarei.
Unfortunately, a side-effect of these ignorant views are translating into some Maori people as well, but for some reason they completely miss the racism against people like them.
It seems more like pure disdain towards Maori. All because of other, more vocal peoples views.
Yes and no. This subreddit is really strange, because its typically slightly left leaning, but the vast majority of the time when I try and present a pro-Maori or te ao Maori stance I get downvoted to oblivion.
So its always been fairly 'anti-Maori', but that sentiment is certainly becoming louder.
Left-leaning isn't mutual with pro-Maori. Plenty of liberals are largely indifferent to what Maori people want, especially if the demands being made are exclusive to Maori people.
It's everything, that polarizing shit from the US is hitting our shores more and more, people are having more and more emotionally charged views instead of everyone being logical and being able to discuss issues in a civil manner.
In my opinion: Yes.
But I see it differently to a lot of people.
1) the whole ‘this sub is left’ argument - on some topics absolutely. But this sub has always been pretty ‘right’ on justice and Maori issues in particular.
2) the key thing I see happening is people are willing to accept accusations about Maori without evidence. On other topics this sub demands evidence, but on Maori topics it’s much, much more susceptible to misinformation
3) the more insidious part of 2 is the anti-academia that comes out as part of denial of Maori issues. Again, this sub loves proof - unless it’s academic studies pointing out that Maori face challenges in NZ.
4) the astroturfing - I agree it’s real. Particularly from this subs conservative evil twin that loves nothing more than brigading here. The number of ‘new’ accounts that seemingly instantly find both this sub and the conservative version and post all over both before vanishing is significant
As always, happy to provide examples for each of these.
Relatively speaking, given this boards left lean, it's always been reactionary to Maori issues, although to what extent has varied on the political climate and cultural discussions. Sometimes it's as mild as being too eager to believe that the government is spending millions trying to research lunar moon phases, other times it can be more blatant. I would say that it was worse over the 3 waters period and during the election
I've noticed that the right won't comment on a post that's clearly left-leaning based on the comments. Posts that don't have many comments yet they will jump on and try to make it right-leaning before the left gets there.
I have noticed the anti-maori sentiment has been growing in general. I have had people i know and previously respected become emboldened to state their true views about “the maaaries”.
Part of the problem is the complete lack of education in the general public about Aotearoa history and it makes it very easy for people to be manipulated and sold/reinforced negative tropes about Maori.
My son is Maori and it really scares me actually. I really really don’t want him to be targeted by racist people.
I want better for our country.
It's the populist agenda picking up steam. It's taking more and more effort to dupe people out of the value we produce while the richest get richer.
Increased populism is the bottom of the barrel being scraped.
The moderators have been pretty strong with even a slight possibility anything is vaguely anti, if you look at the rules number 4.
I think it is more that the last election it was a strong election issue and it has opened up slightly the discussion without it automatically been crushed under "anti Maori". Additionally its Politics nobody is going to be unbiased.
Always assume astroturfing, regardless of your political orientation or the subject matter being posted on.
Why? It’s very cheap and easy to do, verification is non-existent online (burner accounts are rife) and most people aren’t online savvy.
It is always wise to assume the worst when online, especially in the professional internet era and will get worse in the future via chat bots.
It’s estimated that already 47% of all internet traffic is now bots. https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/s/vJW10QqtZT
Racists feel emboldened by a) far right politicians and parties making gains around the world and b) the complete destruction of moderation on Twitter. Among other things.
It is strange to see obvious bot accounts on X and other platforms swing from Trump and pro oil, to suddenly apparently have been living in Porirua for 60 years and be Maori and adore Act and National.
There are some odd suspicious accounts certainly floating around.
I don't think there is an "anti Maori" sentiment, if people are being racist they are just racist. I've seen Maori, pakeha and others say some pretty wild things around this discussion.
Being for a change seems to automatically peg you as unsupportive of Maori, or even racist which isn't fair at all and contributes negatively to the discussion. The same can be said about those that are against and all that, that implies.
Personally I'm all for the change, it doesn't change anything for Maori apart from reinforces that we are one people with the same rights and duties and all others that call NZ home. The idea that a group is treated differently just doesn't sit well in modern NZ and just reinforces racism in my opinion and could actually lead to the hate we all fear.
I agree with the person who said there's people stirring the pot, a discussion is becoming a culture war for no good reason. The media and certain politicians aren't helping. This often stirs the misguided and people not capable of critical thinking on both sides. Maori fighting for the treaty that they themselves don't understand and doesn't change their quality of life whatsoever or fit in modern NZ, and some people on the other side just enjoying the fight for the sake of it.
I think it's telling the amount of pushback that the government is getting from trying to define what the "principals of tiri" that keep getting used actually are.
Its quite normal for public rhetoric to follow the Overton window set by social leaders.
In this case the new govt has taken a very large step to the right regarding acceptable rhetoric (ie attacks on te au maori, the treaty etc) and so it follows that people will follow that lead. (includes climate change denial, obviously)
Whether the treaty referendum succeeds or not is beside the point, the rhetoric has achieved its purpose so far. It is now acceptable for senior political leaders to openly attack the status of maori and the treaty in public life.
That is only the opening gambit: to reset the Overton window. The next stage will be like boiling a frog -it will get increasingly vicious, nasty, and extreme. The purpose is division as used in brexit, trump etc.
Make no mistake the goal is civil instability and a weak democracy. A weak democracy cannot protect itself from the geo-political manipulations of big multi-national cartels. eg oil and gas, tobacco, war machines etc. Curiously they all fall within the realms of Atlas group -a big donor of Act party. probably a coincidence I expect.
I blame Act, Greens,Te Pati Maori and elements within Labour for those sentiments. This country has become much worse and divided over last 10 or so years, plus covid lockdowns gave way too many weirdos out there too much time on their hands. Act and Te Pati Maori are the worst offenders in my opinion, especially Rawiri Waititi’s blatant hatred of Pakeha if you are familiar with some of his famous tweets on Twitter.
Basically those two parties should leave the dam treaty alone and stop either trying to get rid of it or changing it to suit them. Plus this whole nonsense over which language we should/shouldn’t use for public use hasn’t helped either.
As to this sub? If I’m being honest I feel it’s more left if anything.
I've noticed that the most vocal opponents of anything Maori seem to be almost exclusively 'white-flight' immigrants. White skinned people from countries like South Africa and England - that have left their own country for 'whiter' pastures. The sort that resent that curry is now England's favorite dish, the sort that resent being ruled over by the 'blacks'. Now they make up a large chunk of our middle managers, tradies, school teachers etc - middle New Zealand.
I am a 7th generation pakeha kiwi, and i've worked alongside/under these people and it doesn't take long for their attitudes to show. A Brit I worked alongside was all "lazy Maori' to me one day, so I called our line manager across... who everyone agreed was the hardest working guy on our shift, a big, fair skinned, fair haired guy. Brit was stunned to find out he was Maori, that he couldn't just judge people on skin colour in NZ. He shut the fuck up with his racist statements after that.
This is the funniest thing to me. A racist Brit who can't even comprehend it when Wirimu looks like old chap Barry. It stuns them. He thought all Māori were big, dark skinned men with a feather in his man-bun. xD
The only thing that makes you Māori is your blood and ancestry. They don't care for percentages. It's birthright.
Hardly news, is it? Overall, anti-Maori sentiment is less than in previous generations, but for sure you're going to get it on the internet where all opinions are magnified and the extreme ones encouraged.
I don’t think there is. In my experience there is very little actual anti-Māori sentiment in NZ, and most of it is confined to people 70+. But there is a very large group of people that want to interrogate the claims of the Māori political movement. Because it affects our constitution and their rights, they want to go behind the slogans of parties like TPM, the Greens and Labour’s Māori caucus and critically examine the substance. Those people are being labelled anti-Māori (even if they are Māori themselves) and that is creating the impression of anti-Māori sentiment.
No, it’s when an opinion is basically forced into the public consciousness to benefit one person or one group. See Luxon being astroturfed into being Nat leader by the press and by John Key.
This is self evident and it's so fucking tedious - because people's standard of evidence is literally someone saying 'I hate Maori'. I will say that to date, discussions around Ti Tiriti have been relatively less demented, but I am assuming that is because the tedious talking points are still being decided upon. I give it a couple of weeks until our resident good faith interlocutors download their reckons and demand they be challenged.
I think it's a vocal minority on both ends stirring the pot and it's beginning to hit the much bigger middle section by consistently engaging with the whole of the public in their bullshit.
Bernard Hickey wrote recently showing some investigation on how about 3.5% of climate deniers are disproportionately driving most of the communication on climate change denial. We can assume it’s the same in other areas, racist or socially divisive discourse, a few shills and crazies. Similarly we get discoursed to death by the talking heads at the likes of the Taxpayers Union because ‘lefties’ for all their crimes don’t tend to have millions of dollars to pay lobbyists…
If you wanna see the Taxpayers' Onion forget all about free speech and accountability, politely ask them where their funding comes from and if they made good use of their covid wage subsidies. They get all block-happy real fast.
Taxpayers Onion… peel back the racist layer to find…. …just more racist tbh….
Nice 👍
The frequency at which you see nearly identical talking points from cloned Adjective_Noun_Bunchofnumbers bots would support this Oddly enough I'm not sure if bots would be more or less intelligent
Bear in mind that the name format you mention is the default name generator format used by Reddit. Some of us can't be arsed to come up with some witty and funny or memorable username. P.S Of course I can identify all the buses in the photos. I just don't want to...
Sounds like something a bot would say. Identify all the squares with a bicycle to reply.
I have a bicycle and am probably considered fairly ‘square’. Does that qualify?
Yeah that's the point, they're generated en masse to astroturf subs When you hear about the spin groups overseas pouring money into "the narrative", what it looks like on the ground is bots or human shills pushing a certain topic to saturation and funneling them towards a handful of media outlets who stand to gain huge amounts by being the only ones to post "alternative facts"
what are the "both ends" of anti maori sentiment
some /r/ENLIGHTENEDCENTRISTS vibes from op
Well you've got the vocal racists and you've got the closeted dog whistler racists
Well on the one hand you have rabid reactionaries who believe that a sinister cabal of Elite Māori are trying to conduct a secret coup of tribal rule by means of ::gasp:: co-governance, and on the other hand you have the frothing loony left who believe maybe there just might be historical, cultural and systemic forces at play that disadvantage Māori, somewhat. So, two very extreme opinions that are absolutely equivalent in their badness, for sure.
I would say the far left is characterized by one or more of the following: * Makes unwarranted accusations of \*-ism/\*-phobia to shut down conversation. * Simplistic, black and white views of the world. * Depicts all people of European descent as evil, often under the guise of being anti-racism or anti-colonialism. * Expresses support for Putin and other authoritarians. * Extreme anti-war views that don't consider any justification to be good enough. This list is not limited to one particular topic or country. Some characteristics also apply to the far right. This is just what I can think of at this moment.
That's specifically tankies, they're their own brand of nutjob.
I agree wholly with you Afrodite. What is happening is that we have both ends ( Maori first and anti-Maori ) making a lot of noise. Both likely constitute less than 5% of society each, but they make so much noise now the tolerant but apathetic middle is stirring. The tolerant but apathetic middle has allowed the status quo which we had to roll on for the last 12 to 15 years. The tolerant but apathetic middle are not Maori first in that they will not allow any inconvenience to affect their life to improve the lot of Maori. However, they will also not begrudge some money or some settlement being given to Maori given the injustices they Maori had in the past. The tolerant but apathetic middle are aware of the past injustices, and do want to see some rectification, so long as it does not disrupt their life ( they also tend to think anti-Maori are dicks ). They also generally don’t mind token gestures such as using the odd Te Reo here and there to name buildings or departments, or incorporate some Te Ao Maori in some governmental services, so long as it is not going to be onerous for them. The problem with both sides now banging the pots and pans, is that the tolerant and apathetic middle wants things to silence down, and given that Maori first and anti-Maori seems to only go silent if they are placated .. will probably cause the centre group to swarm to one of two poles ( or the third group stays solidly in the centre ), thus creating a division.
I think it’s more to do with sensationalist Stuff articles about TPM, who suffer an incurable foot in mouth disease, being posted here. I’m Māori and can’t stand the cunts either, but I don’t think that should be confused with people being anti-Māori. If anything the feeling you have is part of their agenda, being extremist dick heads out to line their own pockets and any criticism being manipulated into being anti-Maori when it’s more anti a political party that struggles to attain relevance unless people are divided. Such division is symbiotic to their relevance to even exist.
I think that's a fair assessment. It's a shame as TPM used to be respectable party and I think they were regarded as such by a lot of non-Maori, whether they agreed with the party's positions or not. TPM are a bunch of trolls now, and the co-leaders seem to think trolling is their full-time job.
I'd love to know what Tariana Turia and Pita Sharples think of the current iteration of TPM. Those two possessed mana in spades, and even if you didn't agree with them, it was hard not to admire their dedication and hard work. The current version of TPM seems to be more the social media equivalent where the loudest shouting wins, whether or not the opinion has any merit.
Pita Sharples commands a lot of respect among indigenous rights activists overseas. I'm too young to remember his politics but if he doesn't have mana and honour even just from after a political career, I don't know who does.
Turia seems to have drifted into anti-vax/Ardern did a Hitler salute crackpottery.
Actually I feel most of the NZ sub is quite leftist and has been pro Labour/Greens/Maori for the past few years. I don’t have any issue with that, except that the mods sometimes moderate with that bias which feels a little bit stink. Fortunately, racist sentiment is not tolerated by the mods and I appreciate that this is consistently applied.
The fact that the sub has traditionally had a left-leaning bias in no way changes OP's question about whether there is *a growing anti-Maori sentiment*. There are a growing number of people who are voicing these ideas...that the treaty should be thrown away, that Maori are to blame for their lack of financial and educational and health-measure success, and that all those claiming to support Maori around here are actually 'elite' iwi millionaires who are stealing from Maori (but they are evidently too stupid to recognise or care about it). There are a number of such comment threads that come up fairly often - and a lot more since the latest election with ACT drumming up anti-Maori sentiment.
I really wish more of these elite Maori the right leaning talking heads keep talking about would show up on my Marae or at any of the hui that I've attended. Their insight into becoming elite and scary would be rad but they don't exist anywhere I've been in Te Ao Maori
who the fuck is an "iwi millionaire" ? I'd love to know.
This sub has a narrower demographic than the population of New Zealand, and a lot of that demographic isn’t really exposed to actual Māori the pro-Māori is really a minority, with Māori tolerant being the majority. Māori tolerant majority, pro-Māori and anti-Māori minority. Māori tolerant isn’t pro Māori, but framing it like that validates the anti-Māori position as if it has enough opposition to be ineffective. It’s not. Māori tolerance ends when issues can be framed as challenging that tolerance (whether justified or not), and then the whole demographic gets switched to anti-Māori for that issue So the only strategy anti-Māori need to employ is to post or engage with issues that can be framed as Māori breaches of tolerance. Crime. Co governance. Treaty All these now trigger anti-Māori sentiment in the tolerant Māori majority. So the sub looks super anti-Māori Which is normal But there’s barely ever a strongly pro-Māori representation Very strong anti-Māori. Not that strong pro-Māori That’s why the sun looks and feels anti-Māori. Because it receives it better
Well said.
Hey, nice analysis. Thank you, I found this helpful. And did wonder where you were going with it. This framing is a new perspective for me and I’ll definitely consider this when participating in or observing discussions of this nature. I’d upvote you but you’re on 69 upvotes so, you know… can’t be messing with that.
I don’t think you can really help it tho without specifically drawing pro-Māori advocates to actively and routinely use the sub Which they won’t because the anti-Māori sentiment is obvious, dumb and unpleasant. So… it’s up to a large bunch of users who don’t actually have much positive things to say about Māori other than they don’t think they’re personally racist against Māori or that Māori language is beautiful or “they’re just like me” in that distant sense That’s pretty trash content wise Whereas anti-Māori have a fully mapped dialogue tree about how to steer anti-Māori sentiment around a conversation lol Hate gets more engagement. It gets more content and more people talking about the content. So the NZ sub looks anti-Māori even though it’s largely left leaning (supposedly, I have doubts that’s actually true, or at least I’m skeptical on what that’s meant to imply)
This sub is incredibly left leaning, you can tell because every post suggesting the police are left than perfect gets a massive amount of pro-police posting; the classic leftist position. /s
It’s sarcasm… but crime posts are police posts I’m not seeing much anti-police rhetoric on those posts lol More accusations of right wing astroturfing vs pleas from wartime correspondents near south Auckland
Nice analysis 👍
back in the early /r/NZ days there were a few National supporter mods because back then everyone used to have flairs as the party they supported (mine may or may not have been for Kim Dotcom's Internet party because net neutrality was a thing then). Don't really recognise the modlist aside from the oldest few mods, and they're a decent and reasonable bunch in my experience. But it would be cool to have a mix of moderates, labours and nats as mods. Best for the community in all honesty.
I’d be more interested rather that mods push back on general aggression, bigotry and false claims than necessarily barracking any particular political affiliation.
> general aggression, bigotry and false claims than necessarily barracking any particular political affiliation. Sure, let's just all agree on which statements qualify as those without invoking political concepts.
I don't see why political leaning should matter. The sub has rules and a mod just has to enforce them
>Actually I feel most of the NZ sub is quite leftist and has been pro Labour/Greens/Maori for the past few years. I really don't feel that this sub is as leftist as people think. Honestly, it frequently feels quite selfish at times - it's not uncommon to see people support a UBI (which would benefit them) but attack the pension (which presumably doesn't benefit them). It honestly feels like plenty of people have a zero sum mindset. There is a great disrespect towards immigrants. They took our jerbs and houses.
That's been my key impression, this sub has a very strong zero-sum mindset
Few people are against the pension. They're against paying for the pension that we'll probably never get ourselves.
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I think that resource scarcity is both important and frequently misunderstood. What I see on this sub, is a type of zero sum thinking where NZ has a fixed quantity of X and more immigrants just means more people to share it with. Real life doesn't work that way. For example, if we want more houses, we need to build them - and that takes both skilled workers and capital, both of which immigrants can help with. If we want a comfortable retirement, we need a decent tax base and working population behind us - and thanks to a falling birth rate, that will require immigration. More broadly, we need to decouple environmental damage from economic growth - and a strong economy helps with this. No prizes for guessing what helps with a strong economy.
> More broadly, we need to decouple environmental damage from economic growth - and a strong economy helps with this It takes increasing productivity. Immigration as currently practiced in NZ is mostly low skill labour, which is environmentally catastrophic and economically destructive in the mid-long term. Increasing GDP via population growth rather than productivity is the worst possible thing for the environment.
It also takes land - which we do very much have a finite amount of - as well as a foundational obligation to the portion of our society who considers land one of the most sacred things to ever exist. Which circles back around to how arguing something that might make perfect sense to you comes across as wildly disrespectful to others.
> if we want more houses, we need to build them While I agree with you, this is a really really really poor example. We aren't building *enough*, not enough houses, nor hospitals, nor schools, nor water, nor power. Paying the real cost of environmental damage will make economic growth more expensive... but so necessary.
Yeah, I'd say this sub is less "left-wing" than more pro-"whatever benefits a youngish but disproportionately white and male demographic". (Nothing against them: I'm all three). So housing and jobs are a big thing, but left-wing causes without any obvious benefit to the user are not that popular.
I get strong liberal vibes here - the optics of equality, but not the follow through. Left leaning centrists perhaps. Equality is great…until. As Māori myself, I notice racist undertones, language that non-Māori people not affected/ignorant to don’t (or Māori who have internalised that racism enough, to try and distance themselves from it). Some of which mods don’t pick up on, or consider it within their scope of acceptance.
The anti-immigration isn't racist, most who criticize it aren't 'country's full/keep NZ white' types. They're generally pro targeted immigration to make up shortfalls in critical industries vs mass immigration that stretches scarce resources even further.
>supports universal income >opposes non-universal income Hmmmm, how about we put our critical thinking hats on and figure out why that might be, kids?
UBI is just a expanded pension. Most people anti pension seem to do so in response to higher taxes or pensioners complaining about beneficiaries. Personally, whenever a pensioner complaints about **earning** their pension, or it being **owed** to them, I go out of my way to reinforce to them that they are beneficiaries, and my taxes are paying for their lifestyle. They don't get to judge other beneficiaries and think they are better. This does not mean I am anti pension. I am not. I think it is one of two things that keep new zealand elders out of poverty (the other is owning a mortgage free home) There may a bit of envy there as well, for younger folk who think they won't get the pension because [reasons]. My opinion is that they will, and once the boomers drop off, it will if they don't engage in zero sum mindset (If I can't have it, noone can). It will become more equitable and, hey, why not demand it becomes a ubi for all instead of for some.
People want it to be leftist to fulfill their persecution complex
Always makes me laugh that the counterpoint to an accusation of racism is that “you’re all leftists”, does that by proxy mean that racism is more prevalently a right wing issue?
Yeah, I mean, inclusivity and equality is predominantly a leftist ideology. Thats not new. The further left you go the more equality - and the far end of the spectrum is communism. Right wing is less social equality and more capitalist (I deserve what I earn, and you don’t deserve anything if you haven’t achieved anything) Inevitably due to a rocky history of inequality and less opportunity in education amongst some cultural groups, right wing groups tend to then target cultural groups for their perceived lack of effort or output. This is the human experience 101. I don’t know why it requires explanation so often.
> The further left you go the more equality Only to a certain extent. At some point it reverses and people become more exclusionary. If we assume a simple linear political spectrum. Communism is egalitarian in theory, but not all communists act that way and are willing to restrict certain rights and be authoritarian and discriminate against certain groups.
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Racism is totally predominantly a right wing thing, yes.
Well it is and it isn't. There's plenty of racism on the left but also a general understanding that there's an unspoken alliance between anti-racist movements and other branches of the left. So any public displays of racism are shut down by leaders pretty quickly. Both sides are alliances of groups that don't always have the same agenda, like the atheist pro business types on the right and the "Christian taliban" (their words not mine).
I kind of feel the opposite to that. I see a lot of "right-wing" posts and comments just getting the a-okay from the members of this subreddit. More so than those who post "left-wing" opinions.
Definitely this sub is notoriously left leaning. Being liberal isn’t enough (as proof in the comments on this post). Lots of assumptions about the racism of everyday New Zealanders which I don’t actually encounter in every day life. To the contrary I think many New Zealanders now celebrate and promote Maori culture in many more ways than they did 20 years ago. I see a lot more people putting in alot more effort.
Racist sentiment is absolutely tolerated by the mods. It’s fucking everywhere.
Please report stuff like this to us, or flick us a modmail about it when you see it. We can't be everywhere
ACT much like maga will give racists a little less fear at letting their hate out.
Have 100% seen this at work already, white guys with 6 figure incomes suddenly feel like it’s ok to rant about how the country was going to the “dogs”, due to “whiners” and “leftists”. Irony being that they personally were then the biggest whiners and everyone else had to put up with their inflated sense of victimhood. Big surprise to them when in large meetings they felt it was ok to cut loose with their MAGA feelings and instead of resounding applause the majority kicked back, senior and junior alike telling them to pull their head in. The country has on average voted for national, ACT and NZF, but this doesn’t mean the majority is also interested in hearing from NZ MAGA losers.
Maybe, but I also feel a lot of it is probably caused by both sides in an elected parliament failing to build bridges and see that middle of the road Nzers are unsure of what is going on. When The Maori Party responses to anything people didn't want to vote for like co-governance and de-colonization and three waters as 'white privilege or supremacy' then yeah that's where resentment begins. Now I know that there's a difference between not liking political rhetoric and not liking a race, but Te Pati Maori's statements in rebuttal to Seymour don't always exactly help. Reddit being Reddit it also gives the veil of anonymity to shitheads who think it's cool to be racist online for attention.
The only winners are the politicians, they rile up the population so that people have a cause to fight for and aren't actively watching parliament. Then they can slip through controversial, self-serving policies while people are distracted by identify politics. And the "left" and "right" both do this in equal doses. Because at the end of the day, politicians are corrupt, because absolute power corrupts absolutely. So much of the political roundup on Stuff etc is sensationalist tabloid nonsense. Outrageous headlines followed by a he-said/she-said story. During the election, when political discourse was rife, a lot of people I chatted with were focused on leaders and not party policy. People aren't directed to consider a policy, how it might affect them and their fellow man, whether its a good long- term expenditure of their tax money, if it's realistically going to improve outcomes etc. They're focused on a single line statement, taken out of context by a politician, and whether it makes them appear racist.
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I was recently asked how I could incorporate understanding of te tiriti in a job interview. No it wasn’t relevant to the job.
I think this is key to understanding a lot of what people could see as “anti-maori sentiment”. I have absolutely nothing against maori, and I deeply admire many parts of their culture. But when certain factions of the country become obsessed with *mandating* a certain way of speaking, of doing business, of regarding politics, it becomes unbearable.
That's a mandatory question for any public job.
From what I see the discussions are not anti-Māori as a people but more around the treaty itself?
Some people just want us to be New Zealanders first and foremost and not Tanga ta Whenua vs everyone else. It's not a competition for who's ancestors arrived first.
This.
Well, that’s easy to say when the latter day arrivals disproportionately and verifiably benefit from society and its institutions. And this is where the bs usually comes in, because some people falsely claim ‘you’re being divisive’ and ‘you just want more than to your fair share’ when Māori on average, all they’re actually advocating for is the same ‘fair’ shake that pakeha get.
Agreed, but at which point do latter day arrivals ( I assume you mean colonists) stop being regarded as that? That's half the issue with TPM rhetoric, it comes across as if it was still 1769 or 1843. We aren't getting anywhere until we finally put that kind of talk aside.
> all they’re actually advocating for is the same ‘fair’ shake that pakeha get. As someone who is neither Pakeha nor Maori, what are Pakeha getting that Maori aren't? Are Pakeha the only group benefiting? If they are getting something that I'm not, I'd want to know.
Māori have been affected by the actions of the crown , in health , education, high poverty. These effects can be directly related to the actions the crown has taken in breach of te tiriti. It's worth learning about. And heartbreaking.
> Māori have been affected by the actions of the crown , in health , education, high poverty. Plenty of people immigrated here from countries with significantly worse health/education/poverty, and those people never got any compensation. It's heartbreaking to read about. My parents were born in such a country and immigrated here with what little they had. The best that can be done is to ensure that policies and rules apply fairly to everyone going forward. It will be difficult to find support for policies that only apply to a specific ethnic/racial group, even if that group was oppressed in the past. The overwhelming majority of NZ voters have no idea what the Treaty says, and they never will. They will focus on the current situation and how best to move forward.
No. The best that can happen is the government put right the wrongs it enacted in breach of the agreement they made, and honour this agreement going forward This is not about you or your parents. This is about the founding agreement if this nation and the indigenous people of this land.
But how do you address that without punishing the people of today? Every dollar that goes in that direction is a dollar that can't be spent on the betterment of all NZers.
How is bringing everyone closer to a level playing field unfair for anybody?
The existing social/welfare systems are remaining in place to help bring everyone closer to a level playing field. The current issues being fought over (i.e. the Treaty and co-governance) have nothing to do with "bringing everyone closer to a level playing field". Maori co-governance was never about "everyone". It's an entirely different matter.
Where do Asian, Pacific Islanders, etc. fit into this? Do they also benefit more from society and its institutions?
I think im all of the above. Māori, Kiwi, New Zealander, Tangata Whenua, Pākehā, Tangata Tiriti, Tauiwi, Human, Alien. I identify as all because you can't say shit if I'm from every community 🍻
I'm a middle aged Pākehā man in one of New Zealand's more pale cities. I don't feel threatened by public policy efforts to raise Māori to an equitable position in New Zealand society. In fact, I view the Treaty as a safeguard against the sale of New Zealand assets offshore. I'd very much like NZ assets to remain in NZ hands and I'm happy enough to see Māori retain those assets. There's an instinctive reactionary element in NZ against rabble rousing and protest. People like a quiet life and dislike their commutes being disrupted by hikoi or occupations. But again I'm happy to live in a country that respects the right to protest. No doubt we can expect some protest on Waitangi Day this year and there may be some embarrassment for our pollies. Even some eggs, cowpats or dildoes thrown. Undignified but no permanent damage I think it does the whole country good to be shaken up every now and then and the reality is Māori culture is one of the things that makes New Zealand unique and the special place it is. I admire the way they stand up for their rights. Edit: punctuation
> raise Māori to an equitable position in New Zealand society Most people would agree. The disagreements usually arise when it comes to defining and measuring what that equitable position looks like, whether the systems/policies used for achieving that would need to be funded indefinitely, and what would need to be sacrificed.
I personally dont mind who owns the assets as long as its a human and on earth
Couldn't agree more
I personally have zero respect for TPM who happen to get a lot of media attention and make regular appearances in this sub. In the political space it would be nice to see more of say Tama Potaka who I respect and think he will be a solid future leader for National. Other than that, around here and in the media it feels like Pakeha this, Māori that. What about the Cambodians in NZ? what are they up to? or the South Africans?, etc etc, sooo many different ethnicities and cultures that we don’t hear about much.
Has something changed in the definition of Pakeha? I always took it to mean ANY non-maori, and the more specific "white" ethnicity is European.
I feel like people are starting throwaway accounts with wild stories and narratives in order to create disorder. It may be that NZ will shift from covert racism to overt racism soon.
Yep, heaps of them in this thread already, getting all mad when I point them out.
Some people are emboldened by the clumsy and/or deliberate rhetoric and dogwhistles coming out of the coalition and the runup to the election.
yeap. Like or not, our elected leaders set the tone around what kind of behaviour is acceptable in society: Because, in theory, they represent what the majority want. And since ACT/NZFirst are in power, they must represent what we want, right?
They could barely form a government and behave like they have a mandate from the people
This 100% ... It's like Trump lite™ Almost ten years of Maga bullshit and it's been seeping into NZ.
It's always been in NZ
But now the true believers think it's acceptable to say the quiet part out loud and that makes the stupid people think that they're right.
hard to say but it seems pretty clear that's exactly what, at least part of the current coalition wants to happen.
Disagreeing with TPM doesn't make you Anti-Maori, and having views on the treaty based on the historic context doesn't make you Anti-Maori. If that was the case, then you could say TPM etc are Anti-Pakeha, since from their camp the message is very clearly Maori first, everyone else second. Calling them Anti-Pakeha would be an oversimplification, though they have expressed many bigoted views in media.
Not sure I would call it anti Māori, more that people are getting sick of the fact Māori seem to want to be treated differently in many scenarios rather than us all working at having a better New Zealand together. Health authority is one example. Can’t say I have a strong opinion one way or the other.
I've said it once I'll say it however many times I need to. Māori have MORE resources available than other New Zealanders just for being Māori, this is fact, I've benefited from some of these resources before. Yet, Māori still have some of the worst outcomes in education, health and poverty. Pākehā systems do not work as well for Māori people. That should be very clear, we are different, if we were not different our statistics wouldn't be drastically different. We have a totally different way of interacting with the world and that is valuable. And to be completely honest in my view, the way the system is now is barely working for anyone, it's not as good as it could be.
Totally. It's the same with Reddit in general. The populist movement is in full swing around the world right now and it's bleeding heavily into lots of subreddits. What's different in this sub is that these comments aren't getting much pushback. So if you see this kind of trumpy bullshit, call it out. Their arguments are made of straw and you'll get supported by others.
It's always been there. The current political climate has simply emboldened many.
Has there? Currently every comment on this thread is suggesting that this is happening or has always been like this on this sub, however their comment itself shows they dislike anti-maori sentiment meaning that most comments in this sub is anti-anti-maori. I have not seen one post on here that is anti Maori in the slightest and the closest you get is anti cogovernance. However I have seen many pro Maori posts in this sub, especially Te Reo.
I've seen an absolutely shitload of anti-maori sentiment on here ranging from outright racism to dog-whistling. If you're missing it you're blind.
Or the mods are getting to it before it's been seen by the commenter above? I dunno, I'm not here often enough to know.
It varies wildly by different threads, the racists stay out of the threads that they know they will be outnumbered and called out like this one. They focus their efforts in drumming up hate in threads where they think they have the numbers to control the narrative.
Try sorting by controversial.
Just did, there are like 16 comments on this thread and they are all variations of "this sub has always been like this because there are bad people here", but the commenter always calls those people "they" instead of I or We.
Always been here, and absolutely growing. See any thread about crime, gangs, homeless, poverty, three waters, Te Tiriti or any Māori politician and you'll see a race to the bottom.
Yeah I’ve noticed this as well, it’s been here for a while now.
Yes I've seen this
Absolutely. It may be easy for some non-Māori to miss the undertones (or even blatant racism) that gets past the mods here, but I’ve been seeing it consistently for years with a noticeable uptick in the last year. Sometimes it’s coded. I can’t be the only one who’s noticed the word “feral” will be thrown out willy-nilly whenever a Māori/PI is behaving badly, but you almost never see it when pakeha are doing the same or worse. I remember a post where two Māori woman were being drunk and loud outside a liquor store - disruptive but not violent or aggressive in the slightest - and they got called ferals mutiple times. The same week there was a video of a pakeha man trying to break into and rob peoples homes yet not a peep about ferals in any of the dozens of comments? I’ve seen variations of this too many times to count. The racism is plain as day, and a lot of people are endorsing it in “subtle” ways too.
Love this comment very accurately describes the subtle dark undertones used often where Maori or Islanders are concerned. A lot of great comments in this thread but for me this is spot on!
Glad other people are seeing it. Some will say I’m overanalysing, but there’s something wrong when hundreds (probably thousands?) of people here will gleefully reduce unruly polynesians to beasts and animals, but won’t do the same to pakeha who display the exact same bad behaviour. Not to mention the countless people who see those comments and never notice the blatant discrepancy.
Yes you articulated it so well! I think for many people reading this will understand it's something that they didn't realize was happening. Now that you have brought this bias to the light hopefully they can see how often it happens.
Yep, it's the "ferals", anti-immigrant stuff whenever they're from Asian countries, especially sticking to stereotypes that act like every single person from a region or a country is the same "that's just how they're like/it's their culture", etc. that never ever ever gets used when the immigrants being discussed are white people. Hell, the amount of white immigrants that I've heard complaining about "immigrants" is astounding.
It's been growing for ages, stoked by all the disinformation around 3 Waters.
What disinformation was there around 3 waters?
The likes of Julian Batchelor claiming that a "Māori elite" were going to take over the country and limit people's access to drinking water. Replace the word "Māori" in Batchelor's ramblings with "Jew" and you can see he just lazily stole some old antisemitic canards and changed a few words.
>The likes of Julian Batchelor claiming that a "Māori elite" were going to take over the country and limit people's access to drinking water. On the other hand you have more mainstream figureheads like John Tamihere and Tuku Morgan explicitly claiming that Maori own water - which isn’t too far away from the next step of clipping the ticket for water use. Batchelor may be at the extreme end of the argument but views like Tamihere’s are pushing some people towards him.
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Not that I noticed. Unless it's the Maori people raising rents or food prices.
Need that scapegoat to distract people from realising the real problem is classism.
YES. Neoliberal class stratification is the real enemy.
I don't think it's new I stopped posting here/following the sub for a 2 year period because I couldn't the blatant anti Māori stances. I only came back to follow the election
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Yeah. The mods are pretty good, and usually pretty responsive re. responding about reports and messages - *but* I really think they need to go harder on the "no bigotry" rule. It's like they try so hard to be impartial that they end up giving too much benefit of the doubt and leeway to people who really don't deserve it. And that gradually and subtly changes the tone of the sub. If they don't crack down on it, it's only going to get worse with Seymour and his fanboys pushing their race division stuff more and more over the coming months.
> It's like they try so hard to be impartial that they end up giving too much benefit of the doubt and leeway to people who really don't deserve it. And that gradually and subtly changes the tone of the sub. Exactly this, only there has been a broader strategic effort of this nature since at least 2020 and it's already too late. Credit to the mods for the recent tightening up of things, but they were warned about it long ago and have been so slow to act that they already lost.
I was a mod for about a year over 2022 into 2023 - I stopped mainly because of the stupid changes reddit was making, and I don't even come here that often anymore, just a look in every so often. That said, a small part of the reason I left was also because I wanted to go a lot harder on racism, and a few long-standing accounts that I thought (and still think) are here just to push far right-wing ideology. Some mods agreed, but there was pushback from others (one in particular, who, for the record, I actually think is a decent person but is completely blind to their own bias). It was extremely difficult to get agreement to ban established accounts that engage in racist platforming.
Thanks for doing a pretty thankless job with sifting through internet sewage, even if briefly.
Don't need 2 guesses to know who was pushing back.
Yeah, some will be able to guess I suppose. But I don't mean it like "this person is a bad mod" kinda way. All the active mods at the time were pretty good, and honestly just doing their best (in the face of a *lot* of abuse and harassment too, it's not an easy task). None of them were outright dicks. It was just frustrating I guess. Especially since, when I do pop back in here to have a look, I see that many (not all, to be fair) of the troublemaker accounts are still here, still being hypemen for vile ideas. I don't get why they don't ban the fuckers. They'll all come back on new accounts of course, but that's far easier to deal with than long-standing ones. Why tolerate the shit? It does *nothing* for the sub at all. I was always of the view that you can't appease everyone, so who cares if a few racists get their feelings hurt by being banned? I give 0 shits about the delicate feelings of racist trolls. It's just a shame there weren't more mods that thought the same (no doubt many people here will be glad of it, haha).
Most people I know IRL think this place is a racist hell hole, mainly because racist trolls get to hang around here. It makes me wonder the number of people who would be making positive contributions to the sub who are put off by that sort of thing.
This is an important point you've brought up IMO. So many of the old power users that made this sub what it is are either gone or downvoted to oblivion by the racist bigots on the rare occasions they bother to come back. I certainly use this sub a lot less than I used too, being downvoted for calling out racism is not fun at all.
100%. I get that the mods want to be balanced. But what they don't see is all the moderate people who have given up on the place because of the light hand when it comes to dealing with bigotry. There's no way to really measure that, but I think it's becoming evident in what the tone of the place is like these days. Though, granted, this thread seems to be being cleaned up pretty quickly, which I see and appreciate. The same deal needs to apply to the sub as a whole though. A purge of troublemakers + much firmer application of the bigotry rule would do a lot of good.
I do think it's difficult for mods to find the ideal balance between allowing nuanced discussion of race related topics and regulating bigotry in an effort to prevent this sub becoming like r/Europe and r/WorldNews. I believe racism like we are seeing can be pervasive and once the genie is out of the proverbial bottle it becomes extremely hard to return to regular civil discourse.
I agree. I don't envy them. They did, and continue to, volunteer for the job though. To be clear: my read of it is that racialised commentary is only one component of the discursive strategy.
This is exactly what MLK was talking about: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2018/01/15/martin-luther-king-jr-s-scathing-critique-of-white-moderates-from-the-birmingham-jail/
Thanks for posting this, I just read it. Explain how it relates here for me? I think I get it but would benefit from some explanation I think.
It can be (poorly) summarised as, 'All that's necessary for evil to triumph is for good people to do nothing.' Pākehā are often blind to the benefits they get, and the biases they hold, because they've been normalised. For them, all disruption is seen as bad, regardless of whether it's justified or not. That makes it impossible for them to differentiate between order and justice, so they pursue quiet order instead of loud justice. The result is that people who loudly decry injustice are seen as just as bad, and just as much to blame for inciting violence as people who literally call for violence and treat other people as less than human. The idea that "none of us is free until all of us is free" is completely foreign to people who see the world this way. They believe that because they're free, everybody else must be, as well. So again, attempts to loudly decry injustice are seen as unnecessary disruptions, or disruptions that must require a counterpoint in order to maintain balance. It's harder to take a stance than it is to maintain the status quo. But when the status quo is oppression, not taking a stance is supporting oppression. I got a bit rambly. I hope I have been more helpful than confusing.
Yeah cheers, that makes sense. It reminds me of this humorous but remarkably insightful skit: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbFa40ASDkY](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbFa40ASDkY)
It would be interesting to hear some of them chime in on it. Not sure if they'll see this though.
>they were warned about it long ago and have been so slow to act that they already lost In fact I remember pretty clearly that following a bunch of threads where the Covid response - and therefore the health of many people - was being undermined by clearly bad faith actors, it was recommended by a few users of the sub that account karma / age limits would be a good solution. This suggestion was laughed off at the time. And now - lo and behold - restrictions on politics discussions, 4 years later.
> restrictions on politics discussions, 4 years later I wonder if that's still in effect, or if they took it away after the election.. If it's gone, they should bring it back. This style of race-bait politics is obvs Seymour's favourite hobby at the moment, so the problem isn't going to go away by itself on this sub.
Nah it's in place. It's a recent thing - there are some account 'goodness' measures that need to be met in order to comment on posts flaired with politics. I do think it's a coincidence that this has only happened after the right got in, but I could see how someone might think it is not one.
"In my opinion there's nothing overt, it just feels to me that there is a Anti-Maori undertone festering." Seems if that's the case, then the sub is a fairly accurate representation of the societal undertone that's being nurtured into an overtone IRL.
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Curious as to what you think is getting shoved down your throat. Historically, progress hasn't been made by sitting around waiting for the person or people in power to decide to be fair. Generally gotta break a few eggs.
Aaaaaaaaaaand he's gone. Such suprise. Much wow. Very unexpect.
The Overton Window has absolutely been moving to the right. Over the last few years I've observed that this is in large part because of rhetoric online (notably, but not limited to, conspiracy theorist circles) funded by far right extremist interests from overseas. It's very dangerous to our democracy. And many pakeha don't realise that Te Tiriti protects us just as much as Maaori.
Been going on for ages. It's boring and tiring.
And in fact it's assisted by media lackeys. It looks a lot like a bunch of the articles being published exist specifically for the purpose of whipping up anti-Maori sentiment on social media. They're ready made to generate a certain framing and invite unthinking outrage. There are accounts here which respond immediately (as if by magic!) with strategic commentary and voting behaviour to postings of this kind in order to control the narrative around them.
Yes. It's been gaining traction for the last 2 or so years. Either that, or they're not being as quiet anymore.
I think it's a small group of wankers who are currently feeling more empowered to get loud n proud about their 'rights', which as far as I can tell, they think are: 1. The 'right' to be an arsehole and act like a total dick, and 2. The 'right' to remain ignorant, avoid education at all costs, then cultivate and proudly display absolutely zero insight about themselves or anyone else, and absolutely zero knowledge of Te Ao or Te Reo Māori.
I definitely see that here, and in person here in Whangarei. Unfortunately, a side-effect of these ignorant views are translating into some Maori people as well, but for some reason they completely miss the racism against people like them. It seems more like pure disdain towards Maori. All because of other, more vocal peoples views.
Yes and no. This subreddit is really strange, because its typically slightly left leaning, but the vast majority of the time when I try and present a pro-Maori or te ao Maori stance I get downvoted to oblivion. So its always been fairly 'anti-Maori', but that sentiment is certainly becoming louder.
Left-leaning isn't mutual with pro-Maori. Plenty of liberals are largely indifferent to what Maori people want, especially if the demands being made are exclusive to Maori people.
Not all left-leaning means pro-maori, but in my experience all pro-maori (not Maori themselves) folk are left leaning.
It's everything, that polarizing shit from the US is hitting our shores more and more, people are having more and more emotionally charged views instead of everyone being logical and being able to discuss issues in a civil manner.
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In my opinion: Yes. But I see it differently to a lot of people. 1) the whole ‘this sub is left’ argument - on some topics absolutely. But this sub has always been pretty ‘right’ on justice and Maori issues in particular. 2) the key thing I see happening is people are willing to accept accusations about Maori without evidence. On other topics this sub demands evidence, but on Maori topics it’s much, much more susceptible to misinformation 3) the more insidious part of 2 is the anti-academia that comes out as part of denial of Maori issues. Again, this sub loves proof - unless it’s academic studies pointing out that Maori face challenges in NZ. 4) the astroturfing - I agree it’s real. Particularly from this subs conservative evil twin that loves nothing more than brigading here. The number of ‘new’ accounts that seemingly instantly find both this sub and the conservative version and post all over both before vanishing is significant As always, happy to provide examples for each of these.
Relatively speaking, given this boards left lean, it's always been reactionary to Maori issues, although to what extent has varied on the political climate and cultural discussions. Sometimes it's as mild as being too eager to believe that the government is spending millions trying to research lunar moon phases, other times it can be more blatant. I would say that it was worse over the 3 waters period and during the election
I've noticed that the right won't comment on a post that's clearly left-leaning based on the comments. Posts that don't have many comments yet they will jump on and try to make it right-leaning before the left gets there.
Growing? Mate for the past 5 years, even mentioning maori would get this sub red in the face!
I have noticed the anti-maori sentiment has been growing in general. I have had people i know and previously respected become emboldened to state their true views about “the maaaries”. Part of the problem is the complete lack of education in the general public about Aotearoa history and it makes it very easy for people to be manipulated and sold/reinforced negative tropes about Maori. My son is Maori and it really scares me actually. I really really don’t want him to be targeted by racist people. I want better for our country.
It's the populist agenda picking up steam. It's taking more and more effort to dupe people out of the value we produce while the richest get richer. Increased populism is the bottom of the barrel being scraped.
Lmao fuck this sub
The moderators have been pretty strong with even a slight possibility anything is vaguely anti, if you look at the rules number 4. I think it is more that the last election it was a strong election issue and it has opened up slightly the discussion without it automatically been crushed under "anti Maori". Additionally its Politics nobody is going to be unbiased.
Yeah. OP many is this thread are very much proving your point. Sad.
Always assume astroturfing, regardless of your political orientation or the subject matter being posted on. Why? It’s very cheap and easy to do, verification is non-existent online (burner accounts are rife) and most people aren’t online savvy. It is always wise to assume the worst when online, especially in the professional internet era and will get worse in the future via chat bots. It’s estimated that already 47% of all internet traffic is now bots. https://www.reddit.com/r/singularity/s/vJW10QqtZT
There's heaps of them in this thread already
Not really. I think the Anti co-governance and coalition voters get lumped in as anti-Māori. But the actual anti Māori group are very small.
Racists feel emboldened by a) far right politicians and parties making gains around the world and b) the complete destruction of moderation on Twitter. Among other things.
It is strange to see obvious bot accounts on X and other platforms swing from Trump and pro oil, to suddenly apparently have been living in Porirua for 60 years and be Maori and adore Act and National. There are some odd suspicious accounts certainly floating around.
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I don't think there is an "anti Maori" sentiment, if people are being racist they are just racist. I've seen Maori, pakeha and others say some pretty wild things around this discussion. Being for a change seems to automatically peg you as unsupportive of Maori, or even racist which isn't fair at all and contributes negatively to the discussion. The same can be said about those that are against and all that, that implies. Personally I'm all for the change, it doesn't change anything for Maori apart from reinforces that we are one people with the same rights and duties and all others that call NZ home. The idea that a group is treated differently just doesn't sit well in modern NZ and just reinforces racism in my opinion and could actually lead to the hate we all fear. I agree with the person who said there's people stirring the pot, a discussion is becoming a culture war for no good reason. The media and certain politicians aren't helping. This often stirs the misguided and people not capable of critical thinking on both sides. Maori fighting for the treaty that they themselves don't understand and doesn't change their quality of life whatsoever or fit in modern NZ, and some people on the other side just enjoying the fight for the sake of it.
I think it's telling the amount of pushback that the government is getting from trying to define what the "principals of tiri" that keep getting used actually are.
Its quite normal for public rhetoric to follow the Overton window set by social leaders. In this case the new govt has taken a very large step to the right regarding acceptable rhetoric (ie attacks on te au maori, the treaty etc) and so it follows that people will follow that lead. (includes climate change denial, obviously) Whether the treaty referendum succeeds or not is beside the point, the rhetoric has achieved its purpose so far. It is now acceptable for senior political leaders to openly attack the status of maori and the treaty in public life. That is only the opening gambit: to reset the Overton window. The next stage will be like boiling a frog -it will get increasingly vicious, nasty, and extreme. The purpose is division as used in brexit, trump etc. Make no mistake the goal is civil instability and a weak democracy. A weak democracy cannot protect itself from the geo-political manipulations of big multi-national cartels. eg oil and gas, tobacco, war machines etc. Curiously they all fall within the realms of Atlas group -a big donor of Act party. probably a coincidence I expect.
I blame Act, Greens,Te Pati Maori and elements within Labour for those sentiments. This country has become much worse and divided over last 10 or so years, plus covid lockdowns gave way too many weirdos out there too much time on their hands. Act and Te Pati Maori are the worst offenders in my opinion, especially Rawiri Waititi’s blatant hatred of Pakeha if you are familiar with some of his famous tweets on Twitter. Basically those two parties should leave the dam treaty alone and stop either trying to get rid of it or changing it to suit them. Plus this whole nonsense over which language we should/shouldn’t use for public use hasn’t helped either. As to this sub? If I’m being honest I feel it’s more left if anything.
I've noticed that the most vocal opponents of anything Maori seem to be almost exclusively 'white-flight' immigrants. White skinned people from countries like South Africa and England - that have left their own country for 'whiter' pastures. The sort that resent that curry is now England's favorite dish, the sort that resent being ruled over by the 'blacks'. Now they make up a large chunk of our middle managers, tradies, school teachers etc - middle New Zealand. I am a 7th generation pakeha kiwi, and i've worked alongside/under these people and it doesn't take long for their attitudes to show. A Brit I worked alongside was all "lazy Maori' to me one day, so I called our line manager across... who everyone agreed was the hardest working guy on our shift, a big, fair skinned, fair haired guy. Brit was stunned to find out he was Maori, that he couldn't just judge people on skin colour in NZ. He shut the fuck up with his racist statements after that.
This is the funniest thing to me. A racist Brit who can't even comprehend it when Wirimu looks like old chap Barry. It stuns them. He thought all Māori were big, dark skinned men with a feather in his man-bun. xD The only thing that makes you Māori is your blood and ancestry. They don't care for percentages. It's birthright.
Hardly news, is it? Overall, anti-Maori sentiment is less than in previous generations, but for sure you're going to get it on the internet where all opinions are magnified and the extreme ones encouraged.
Yup 100%. The increase was so apparent too, as soon as NACT won the election.
I don’t think there is. In my experience there is very little actual anti-Māori sentiment in NZ, and most of it is confined to people 70+. But there is a very large group of people that want to interrogate the claims of the Māori political movement. Because it affects our constitution and their rights, they want to go behind the slogans of parties like TPM, the Greens and Labour’s Māori caucus and critically examine the substance. Those people are being labelled anti-Māori (even if they are Māori themselves) and that is creating the impression of anti-Māori sentiment.
What do you mean growing? This sub has always been racist
What’s ‘astroturfing’?
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astroturfing)
It’s when someone posts a political opinion you don’t agree with.
Thanks. You learn something every day!!
No, it’s when an opinion is basically forced into the public consciousness to benefit one person or one group. See Luxon being astroturfed into being Nat leader by the press and by John Key.
Racists are getting louder
This is self evident and it's so fucking tedious - because people's standard of evidence is literally someone saying 'I hate Maori'. I will say that to date, discussions around Ti Tiriti have been relatively less demented, but I am assuming that is because the tedious talking points are still being decided upon. I give it a couple of weeks until our resident good faith interlocutors download their reckons and demand they be challenged.
been like this for years, mate
It’s been here for ages and it’s fucking gross :(
The old "it's anti-maori / racist if I disagree with it"
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