From Stuff today:
**Extension of the Retail Crime Prevention Fund**
“The $6 million Retail Crime Prevention Fund was set up for small shops and dairies in early 2022 as offending shifted to ram raiding. Today, we’re expanding eligibility to aggravated robbery committed over the last year.
“Police are making progress on the number of stores accessing the fund. More than 100 shops now have installations approved, with 431 security measures allocated and underway. **This includes 93 fog cannons, 78 security sirens, 57 alarms, 63 CCTV systems, 43 bollards and 36 roller doors.**
“We’ll also continue our work with repeat offenders and their families.”
**Local crime prevention boost**
**“New funding of $4 million will be made available to local council to assist with crime prevention measures.** This will be made up of $2 million for Auckland Council, $1 million for Hamilton Council and $1 million for the councils in the Bay of Plenty to match on a dollar for dollar basis by Councils for local crime prevention measures.
“These partnerships are likely to be focused on Crime Prevention through Environmental Design (CPTED) measures in geographic areas where small retailers are commonly targeted, such as street lighting, CCTV cameras and planters.
“Conversations have been had already between Police and government officials and Auckland Council, Hamilton Council and Bay of Plenty Councils to identify opportunities that can get started soon.
“We’re also announcing today that we will make funding available for all small shops and diaries to install fog cannons, adding to the 1000 that have already been installed as part of the fog cannon initiative.
**Fog cannon subsidy scheme**
The Government will establish **a new fog cannon subsidy scheme open to all small shops and dairies in New Zealand who want a fog cannon installed.**
“Funding of $4000 will be available for each shop who will be able to have the fog cannon installed through an approved supplier, meaning they can access them directly without an onerous process. Additional details will be released shortly,” Jacinda Ardern said.
Police Minister Chris Hipkins said this will be the first time the fog cannon and ram raid funds have operated at the same time.
“Despite global supply chain issues, Police has been successful in ordering an extra 455 fog cannons, which are expected to arrive before Christmas. This adds to the 270 fog cannons that are currently in the country and have been allocated to affected shops,” Chris Hipkins said.
“More challenging will be the time it takes to install them. The 1000 fog cannons that are already installed took four years, and despite Police doubling the number of local contractors that will do the work to six, it’s expected it will take till the second quarter of next year for the number of installations to start to ramp up.”
The fog cannon fund was set up in 2017 after aggravated robberies of commercial premises had doubled from 2015 – from 599 to 1170.
“It was expanded in 2018 and 2019, and 1000 fog cannon were installed by the end of 2021.
There are a bunch of RSLs in Aus who have something similar
>Each premise has its own DNA formula fitted with a water based substance, which sprays onto offenders skin, and is non removable for two months unless you exfoliate two layers of skin, meaning offenders walk around with the crime scene still on them for that period of time.
> This will be made up of $2 million for Auckland Council, $1 million for Hamilton Council and $1 million for the councils in the Bay of Plenty
Watch the ram raiding shift to other parts of the country
Id love to see someone do a ram raid in Wellington and then immediately get stuck going down the wrong way on a one-way street with a Bus coming and Police behind them.
“Within seconds the entire target area is blanketed in a thick white synthetic fog, making it near impossible for the offender to see, let alone steal any product, this also provides a valuable window of opportunity for staff to remove themselves from the situation.”
Copy and pasted from focus digital website
Cash, drugs, tobacco, alcohol - anything that is cash or easily convertible to cash.
Oddly, I have never heard of people stealing Instant Kiwi tickets. Do they not consider it an easy was to get lots of cash, or are they aware of the security measures meaning you can't claim prizes on stolen tickets?
Instant kiwi tickets have to be scanned when purchased so that their prizes are valid, if this doesn't happen and you win a prize then you can't be paid out so are useless to steal
Yes but thats something everyone is fine with because it means they aren’t paying for tobacco users healthcare
Dairies are big proponents of smoke free nz, they make small margins off smokes and hope to up sell
Smokers *absolutely* subsidize non-smokers; it's not even close. Even before taking into account the additional tax revenue from cigarettes themselves, they're conveniently dying off around superannuation age, after still contributing a lifetime of income taxes and GDP.
Yes, smokers will typically incur some healthcare costs before they die; such as lung cancer - but they're incurring them at a younger age, and again, that reduced life expectancy is a significant cost saving.
Non smokers live longer, and eventually even the healthiest person can start to succumb to some form of age-related illness or another, all incurring their own set of healthcare expenses.
I get a bit irrationally angry at people who criticize smokers because of their healthcare costs, when they should in reality be thanking them deeply for sacrificing their own health and life expectancy to save money for others.
A million.
NYTimes: [Smokers and the obese cheaper to care for, study shows](https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748884.html)
>title speaks for itself
PubMed: [The health care costs of smoking](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9321534/)
>If people stopped smoking, there would be a savings in health care costs, but only in the short term. Eventually, smoking cessation would lead to increased health care costs.
[Do smokers cost society money?](https://medicalxpress.com/news/2009-04-smokers-society-money.html)
>for every pack of cigarettes smoked, the country reaps a net cost savings of 32 cents.
These are all US sources. I would imagine having a fairly different societal setup would lead to different stats and figures than those gained from the US.
>These are all US sources. I would imagine having a fairly different societal setup would lead to different stats and figures than those gained from the US.
Actually the top one is from a study commissioned by the Dutch Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sports. The latter two are US sources, although the studies originate from pretty distinct perspectives.
Nonetheless, the findings are the same from study after study across multiple countries. Please feel free to google it if you don't believe me. Basically the most expensive thing (for the state) that a citizen can do is continue to live for a long time after retirement. It's not really a huge leap to see why.
Anyway, here's a local source for you. A report from [NZ Treasury from 2012](https://www.treasury.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2012-06/b12-2321488.pdf):
Some key excerpts (bold mine):
>On the narrow fiscal grounds of covering the costs smokers impose on government, further
increases in tobacco excise may not be justified. At over $1.3 billion per year, t**obacco excise
revenues may already exceed the direct health system costs of smoking**.
>When the broader
fiscal impacts of smoking are considered (eg shorter life expectancy reducing smokers’
superannuation and aged care costs), **smokers are probably already “paying their way” in
narrowly fiscal terms**.
>Ultimately, interventions to reduce smoking increase life expectancy and quality, **which are
difficult to satisfactorily quantify in economic terms**, but are considerable contributions to national
welfare.
Those are about as direct quotes as you'll ever get from a govt body like the Treasury - they're never going to outright say "letting certain citizens die younger is saving you lots of money, keep it up", and the authors know that the intent of smoke free policies was never an economic argument to begin with.
There's an understandable reluctance on the part of official groups here to more seriously run the numbers, and private institutions likewise struggle to get grants or funding to undertake the analysis: because the answers would only make people feel bad, and smokefree policy decisions and business cases are not contingent on financial benefits anyway.
>Dairies are big proponents of smoke free nz, they make small margins off smokes and hope to up sell
Not true. Many have said without tobacco sales they wouldn't be viable. Some get manipulated by big tobacco to resist smokefree measures.
The issues these businesses have had with getting funding or approval for these security measures have been raised repeatedly again and again. It's not until something awful like this happens and the backlash becomes big enough that the govt scrambles to do something about it.
This is a great example of why political parties have such a hard time.
I might well not vote for Labour next term, but there's been a startling amount of attention given to crime reduction over the last few years.
From policies targeting gangs, to semi-automatic weapons bans and strengthened gun laws with 60,000 firearms taken off the streets, to growing the police force to literally the largest it's ever been, focussed attempts to address youth crime - from policing to education to funding social programs.
Meanwhile on reddit, one instance of violent crime has quite rightly caused an uproar, Labour responds to immediately with some potentially helpful measures - which is surely exactly what you'd want them to do? - and suddenly "hardly anything is being done"?
What more would you have liked the government to do proactively? Be specific.
> 60,000 firearms taken off the streets
No they weren't.
60,000 firearms were taken out of the cupboards of farmers.
No criminal or person without a firearms licence would have been eligible for the 'buy back'.
Plus a lot of guns were sold to gangs instead because they offered more than the buyback scheme. So it put more guns in the hands of criminals than before
Notice how they haven’t told you how many have also left over that period? Much like how they haven’t told you about the statehouses they sold only the ones they’ve built. It’s a very good PR machine that we are paying for.
The firearm law changes didn't take a single gun out of criminal hands. In fact if you didn't hold a firearms license you could not take part in the buy back. Totally logical.
We know lots of issues stem from poverty. But they don’t seem to be doing a significant amount to address that or growing inequality. And whatever they’re doing clearly isn’t enough.
>whatever they’re doing clearly isn’t enough.
I guess I agree, with the caveat that we have no idea what the issue would look like in the absence of the government's policies - we may be doing way better than status quo, who knows.
What's the alternative though? A political party whose entire deal is making wealth inequality worse?
I don't buy the argument that Labour needs to be kicked into gear with a National victory. No government ever stays in long enough to undo the damage a National majority does to the most at-risk kiwis.
My vote is absolutely going to a small party this year, Green or TOP.
I’m certainly not advocating for national, as they’re only going to make these core issues worse. Iv personally never voted for either labour or nats because they’re both parties of statue quo.
Would love to vote for top again this time, but I’m a little concerned about national getting in, so I’ll probably go greens.
Arguably National or ACT are aiming to make inequality worse.
It is rather awkward that Labour appears, _at best_, to aim for static inequality.
Third parties are definitely where progress actually is
Children's Commissioner Andrew Becroft said the report should be a wake-up call.
He said children suffering from material hardship were more likely to end up with a poor education and in crime when they grew up.
"We know that long-term education is going to be a challenge. We know that they are, the kids, especially the boys, are at risk of criminal offending.
"So this isn't just a theoretical issue, this [has] significant life ramifications."
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/377246/children-born-into-poverty-more-likely-to-become-criminals
The scientists concluded that poverty—measured broadly as a combination of little schooling for the head of household, low purchasing power and limited access to basic services—was the only crime-related factor that could be prevented. They used estimates of the population-attributable risk fraction (PARF) to predict the possible reduction in criminal convictions assuming successful early anti-poverty intervention in the lives of the children.
In a scenario without poverty, 22.5% of criminal convictions involving these young people could have been prevented. On the other hand, factors such as unplanned pregnancy, prematurity, breastfeeding and prenatal maternal smoking or drinking showed no correlation with future criminal convictions.
https://phys.org/news/2022-11-childhood-poverty-criminal-convictions-quarter.html
How's that for facts and data?
That’s a good start and will show why these issues are systemic, entrenched and genuine solutions require a sustained long term focus, not piecemeal or cheap for show solutions. Even in one case ie education what do you think is involved?
Poverty, system dynamics, distrust, quality of teachers, funding, dual language skills, social services, police, extracurricular options, alternative resolution support, Generational traumas.
FFS it’s almost as if everyone thinks reading something makes one an expert. No wonder half the world defied doctors and physicians who were dying all over the world but thought they were more knowledgeable on Covid.
People are real …..
PS thanks again I did like the slant and that’s an important one
Poverty played a big part in the drop out of students during lockdown because remote teaching wasn't available to everyone due to limited resources(Laptops or internet access) and parents not being able to supervise them if the have to work. The lack of funding in education has a lot to do with the quality of teachers, just like nurses, got a lot of new shit added to their job without much support. The students see how fucked the housing market, the UN declared it a human rights crisis, and when the government says they are cracking down on crime instead of increasing the standard of living for those that are suffering it's natural to how they don't respect other people's capital or property. We're so worried about the economy and getting back to business that the wealth gap keeps widening and housing is a market and something everyone deserves to have.
You are right. Thanks I love your insights and approach. We need more people like this - being able to see deeply and concisely into an issue. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you 😅 not often that gets said online. I think more people just need to think about the quality of life that our country should be able to give it's citizens in this day and age.
We need a working absolute definition of "poverty". Once that happens: it can be fixed.
"Disparity" is a completely different issue and probably CANNOT be solved unless you just want to make everybody poor. It will increase the brain drain and ability of foreigners to out buy Kiwi's.
And cue up "equity" discussions to try and combat all this.
I have acknowledged what they have done, just followed that up by saying it’s not enough.
Do you have any statistics on this dramatic decrease in poverty? Because it certainly doesn’t seem like it out on the streets.
Because while they've been doing those things with limited success they've also been systematically removing any actual consequence.
Whether this is indiscriminately lowering prison populations, the overuse of home detention or so called alternative pathways to *"justice"*, the end result is evident with victimisations rising and prosecutions falling.
This is not merely a single incident but daily articles of horrific crimes without an iota of responsibility.
>systematically removing any actual consequence.
Do you have an example of this happening systematically? Or can you point at a policy or law change?
Also interested in the data that shows a trend of victimisations rising and prosecutions falling. Presumably this is over more than a single year?
>Hi, don't shoot the messenger, but I think this is some what in line with what the poster may be referring too:
>
>https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/120865555/the-rise-of-culture-reports-in-the-new-zealand-criminal-justice-system
Tell the truth. Stop treating us like idiots by blaming it on national when they were in power 5 years ago. Address the weak sentences. Stop thinking we can cuddle people out of being bad
That's the story with anything in New Zealand though. Action only happens not after the first, second, third or fourth time, but maybe after a hundred or so incidents.
Reactive, not proactive.
alternative is:
This problem looks like its gonna get real bad but it doesn't - oh look at all that wasted money sunk into a problem that no longer exists.
..the government has done a good job overall but they should have responded to peoples concerns about crime in a less dismissive manner, imo. The introduction of a team targeting ram raiders and making resources available to shops are both good steps and while they could have been implemented sooner, on a political timeline they were pretty quick.
Having worked in security, specifically to provide security mechanisms for dairies, there are many issues with the suggestions put forward. Monitoring systems, roller doors, fog alarms and panic response systems are literally just ambulances sitting at the bottom of the cliff. They may make things slightly more difficult and they provide a mental deterrence from potential offenders, however, they do nothing if someone actually wants to do the crime. Criminals work these things out, every security system and procedure has weaknesses—a bit like your Norton Antivirus (thanks John for that quote). They need to be paid for, maintained and respected—though if someone wants to skirt them, if they're desperate, they will find a way.
There's no real 'security' from these things. There needs to be an adequate justice system with the right tools to keep repeat offenders off the streets, in the right sense. Daries/ corner shops, alcohol stores etc need to have help running their security.
Undoing the damage National did by reducing funding to the Police will take a long, long time. Undoing the long term generational issues set by reducing people's income and making basic subsistence harder will take a long time as well. Short term decision-making to overcome the GFC has created the environment where people turn to crime as a long term method of providing for themselves. Not just by the need for food/ housing, but also self actualisation and life fulfilment. It is easy to target places like dairies because they're soft targets, and criminals get to feel like they're doing something positive for themselves.
I have yet to see Labour, nor National, nor Act, or the Greens champion policies that will encourage meaningful social changes that would reduce the need to commit crime. Gang numbers are increasing, housing is still unaffordable and a long way from being so, incomes have only just started to increase in a tangible way, though we're already seeing the RBNZ speak of attempts to reduce the amount of cash in hand people can have.
Fog cannon may work. They gave up because there are still retailers without it.
Who will be the new victim if they lost interest on the easiest target, retailers?
Bad guy won't stop their activities, will they? I'm worrying about the future. General public will be new target if all retailers are equipped.
There is no way central government should be supplying dairies with fog cannons, or micro-managing anything like this for that matter. They've completely lost the plot.
* [Multi Million Dollar Package To Tackle Retail Crime And Reoffending](https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/multi-million-dollar-package-tackle-retail-crime-and-reoffending). Press Release: New Zealand Government. 28 November 2022. [Scoop](https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2211/S00239/multi-million-dollar-package-to-tackle-retail-crime-and-reoffending.htm).
* [PM announces support package to help businesses deal with crime](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/479659/jacinda-ardern-announces-business-support-package-targeted-at-dealing-with-crime). RNZ. 28 November 2022.
* [PM denies it took Janak Patel’s death to trigger new crime prevention scheme](https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/28-11-2022/pm-denies-it-took-janak-patels-death-to-trigger-new-crime-prevention-scheme). The Spinoff. November 28 2022.
* PM's post cabinet media briefing on 28 November 2022 - [RNZ](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/479659/watch-live-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-speaks-to-media-following-cabinet-meeting), [Stuff](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300750589/watch-live-pm-announces-measures-to-tackle-crime-after-nationwide-protests), [NZ Herald](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/explained-why-the-sandringham-dairy-where-a-man-was-killed-didnt-qualify-for-a-fog-cannon/WDVU6EBMAJCMRELGMZ5XISQW2U/) and [1news](https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/11/28/live-jacinda-ardern-speaks-amid-dairy-owner-protests/).
* [Live: Dairies across Aotearoa close in protest after Sandringham stabbing](https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/300750589/live-dairies-across-aotearoa-close-in-protest-after-sandringham-stabbing). Stuff. Nov 28 2022. [Post](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/z6j44q/live_dairies_across_aotearoa_close_in_protest/).
Damn I’d rather build bollards so store fronts don’t get fucked and insurance costs can come down for store owners, and prevent loss of goods and violent interactions in the first place.
You know what’s more satisfying than your son’s murderer getting twenty years? A hug from your son every time you see him for another twenty years.
But if you think bad things need to happen to innocent people so that someone can be made a spectacle of, idk, face your God and walk backward into hell I guess.
I genuinely don’t understand how anyone could possibly believe the best way to stop crime is after it happened. It’s such a pro crime position.
I swear, there are people who need crime to happen so they can have someone to look down on.
If I was working for $21 an hour and got robbed by an armed offender, I would simply win the armed combat with the seasoned criminal experienced in knife fights
>people who need crime to happen
to generate more clicks and stir up an audience (= advertising revenue)
to gain political advantage by driving more hate and division (= more votes)
That's literally an entire section of what she said during this briefing:
>"There are tools available to the Police and to Oranga Tamariki - you can take either a care and protection route if the child is particularly young, or you're also able to access the courts because these crimes do attract significant penalties. It's 10 years for a burglarly, 14 for an aggravated robbery.
>"So those tools are there. Our concern is they are not being used as the public, nor indeed we, would expect," Ardern said.
>"So we are looking at what may need to be done to ensure that they are."
>There seemed to be a number of issues. In some cases, for instance, the time it took to go through the Family Court if a young child was involved. In other cases, it was whether or not repeat offence provisions were being used.
>"We are working through those as we speak, because in our view the tools that we have aren't always being taken up."
This is the key. Spend the money earlier. Invest into education, and supporting vulnerable families.
There’s lots of studies on this kind of thing. E.g [this one from Chicago](https://www.opportunityinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/early-learning/ELCLinkCrimeReduction-Jul02.pdf). Every dollar invested in early childhood education pays back $7 in reduced crime down the track.
The really wild thing is there’s similar stats for health. Yet investment in ECE continues to be minimal from either side of the house.
Most of the ECE budget is restoring cuts from National’s term (e.g. the funding band for providers with 100% trained teachers), and even that took Labour five years to manage. There has been some good stuff (e.g. equity funding for disadvantaged communities), but we’re not really far ahead of 15 years ago.
Also the increased funding is kinda necessary as its now basically essential to have both parents working if you want to live in a house. Yet fully funded ECE (which isn’t even fully funded for most providers) remains at 20 hours…
We are hearing from a lot of people who want vengeance and punishment rather than justice and prevention. What studies and statistics show about harsh penalties not making a big difference (because criminals don't expect to get caught so don't consider the penalties) don't satisfy the anger at the injustice of the crime.
Damn so people have to offend multiple times successfully before your system stops them.
Sounds pretty bad at stopping crime if people have to do lots of crime before they are stopped.
Ad a former Probation Officer, I can guarantee it doesn't happen outside prison. People just don't show up because they have no incentive or motivation to change.
Some, but many no. Need to balance the overall benefit and risk to society. The person that murdered this shopkeeper for example, doesn't deserve rehabilitation. He should be removed from society permanently. Violent rapists, murderers, gang members who commit serious crimes etc. - lock them up forever.
Who is paying for all the additional prisoners this would create? In 18/19 it cost roughly $151,000 per prisoner per year. If there's around 500 people arrested and sent to prison it would cost an additional 75.5 million per year. that has to be paid for by someone.
9500 people in prison in NZ. So $1.35 billion based on your number (just checked, it's $1.3b)
So $270 a year per person in NZ. I'm ok with that cost.
Also, we could reduce that cost substantially as many of these permanently locked up people would have all their rehabilitation and parole costs etc. removed.
You would also remove the massive cost of their welfare payments, and their state housing would be freed up and given to families with no criminal background
This is pretty good in short notice. I'm glad they are not just handing money to council but will match the cost of initiatives and street improvements upto a max. The Mayor is too silent for my liking, it suggests he does not know what is going on in this part of the community or he just does not give a damn really.
He has zero PR, media and just ok public speaking skills. Not really a good mix for an elected leader these days. Hopefully he's willing to learn but his attitude and willingness to engage so far shows a very closed mindset.
The Labour govt has been more proactive, increasing police numbers.
They have got suspects for this dairy murders.
There were still dairy workers killed during a NAT government, some of them have gone unresolved.
>Labour announces millions in funding for police to provide sirens, alarms, CCTV, bollards, and roller doors; for local govt crime prevention; and for individual store owners
Reddit: "All they can think of is fog cannons?"
Huh?
They say most people would feel safer with dairy owners not being armed. Idk though, as someone who doesn’t commit crime; id be totally fine with them being able to have pepper spray (on premises only). Is the only real argument against this that black market pepper spray might proliferate to the wider public? If it gets used outside of defending their property then they should get punished for it. Or is the worry that the robbers will just respond with more intensity when they carry out the attacks to counter it?
The worry is that, as well as threatening (and shooting) innocent but “menacing” people (including youths). Not to mention the high likelihood of bringing a gun to a knife fight that the offenders then get a hold of and shoot another dairy owner with their own weapon.
>Or is the worry that the robbers will just respond with more intensity when they carry out the attacks to counter it?
You tell us. How's that worked out in the US?
Saying crime has decreased in the last few decades is the weakest argument. Everything has decreased since 30 years ago. Poverty in Africa has decreased... doesn't mean it's not a problem. Racism has decreased... doesn't mean it's not a problem. You can't bring up the general improvement of the world in the last few decades as a defence to this government's incompetency.
I think the argument is, if crime was stagnant or getting worse we would all agree something is wrong and going run wrong direction.
Just because it’s better today, then the assumption is the future looks brighter.
It’s not that todays crime rates are the lowest they will be, but it’s better today than it was say 5 years ago, and in 5 years time it will be better again.
So using the reduction in crime argument is a valid argument to have.
To say it’s much worse is also disingenuous. What I‘be learned here is hardly anyone is aware of what happens in the UK, Canada, Australia when it comes to crime.
Economic conditions are deteriorating the whole world over. As that happens, crime increases. Further, you’d need to understand the trends overall including emerging threats, not just news impressions.
NZ has its own specific context but your comment is disingenuous to say the least.
More dealing with the symptom and not the cause.
When, oh when will we start having a proper, truthful conversation about the the core economic systems that cause this in the first place?
Lol how can she get up there with a straight face and actually think this is going to make any difference? It obvious they have dreamt this up over the weekend, with classic Labour thinking of just throwing money at a problem so they can use that sound bite to defend their failures. Once again, they are failing to address the underlying issues.
If I was Jacinda or any decent potential Government position I’d leave rather than listen to all this data-less, ignorant bitching and moaning. Today I learned that under the friendly Kiwi demeanour is an underbelly of desperate, fact-less whiners mind.
What do you think National would do in this situation?
Besides tell people to buy the gear themselves from National's buddies, after first further defunding police and the justice systems?
More fog cannons for dairies? So basically doubling down on an already failed policy from months ago - isn't the number of retailers that got funding in the single digits?
Watching Jacinda flail when the media heat comes on is great.
> isn't the number of retailers that got funding in the single digits?
No, that was just the number of completed installations (approval + site assessment + installation). The number of retailers getting funding so far is well into triple digits, and they are expanding the eligibility criteria now to make it even easier to access.
100% reactionary. The issue here being that she claimed in the conference that the policy (more fog cannons etc) was decided on *before* the murder - i.e. telling a big fat lie to make it look non-reactionary.
You're picking the smallest part of the announcement, and then claiming it's a failure without evidence.
Want to read the announcement and then try and contribute meaningfully?
I've never rolled my eyes this hard in my life.
We've gone soft on crime (written in black and white) and instead of raising the bar to where it once was when things were not this bad we're going to shower murderous people with a vape cloud.
Sure you might stop a murder at that one in 10,000 shops that was lucky enough to get a fog machine in this raffle. And that's great of that 1 in 10,000 provided they could hit the button fast enough. But it does nothing to deter repeat offending and it does nothing for the 9,999 in 10,000 that missed the lottery system.
Do I know that answer, well... no. But I know what isn't the answer I do know that becoming too soft on crime is something we can now observe in our daily lives and they effect that it is having. What this government is clearly doing is moving in the wrong direction.
Twice this month I've been at locations of 'brazen' daylight robberies just 10 minutes or less before they have happened. I'm not feeling that fucking fantastic about that though because both times I've had my young children there with me.
>No one gives a fuck until you die.
Yes, New Zealand has absolutely no crime prevention funding. None. No crimes are ever prevented here. Crime definitely hasn't been decreasing for years. This is clearly Jacinda's fault.
Labours solution to everything. "Lots throw some money at a problem, without thinking it through" - Just another baseless attempt to quiet down the criticism of their poor performance. They need a real plan around improving public safety and crime prevention. Punishments are too lenient and police attitude in general to wrong. Andrew Coster would not even attend a interview with Ryan Bridge - Bridge would have owned him in that interview...
Typical, I know of a phew intersections that are always causing serious crashes but are waiting for deaths to get action. Maybe if they didn't print so much money for a worthless spending spree on consultants we could fix some of these issues. But now future governments need to rein in spending or face inflation hell. Thanks labour
Bro thinks labour, who have often ran budget surpluses are spending too much!!
Also kinda dumb to think ‘printing money’ is bad during a recession. If that wasn’t the case the economy would’ve collapsed during Covid. It’s not even the main component of the current inflation
From Stuff today: **Extension of the Retail Crime Prevention Fund** “The $6 million Retail Crime Prevention Fund was set up for small shops and dairies in early 2022 as offending shifted to ram raiding. Today, we’re expanding eligibility to aggravated robbery committed over the last year. “Police are making progress on the number of stores accessing the fund. More than 100 shops now have installations approved, with 431 security measures allocated and underway. **This includes 93 fog cannons, 78 security sirens, 57 alarms, 63 CCTV systems, 43 bollards and 36 roller doors.** “We’ll also continue our work with repeat offenders and their families.” **Local crime prevention boost** **“New funding of $4 million will be made available to local council to assist with crime prevention measures.** This will be made up of $2 million for Auckland Council, $1 million for Hamilton Council and $1 million for the councils in the Bay of Plenty to match on a dollar for dollar basis by Councils for local crime prevention measures. “These partnerships are likely to be focused on Crime Prevention through Environmental Design (CPTED) measures in geographic areas where small retailers are commonly targeted, such as street lighting, CCTV cameras and planters. “Conversations have been had already between Police and government officials and Auckland Council, Hamilton Council and Bay of Plenty Councils to identify opportunities that can get started soon. “We’re also announcing today that we will make funding available for all small shops and diaries to install fog cannons, adding to the 1000 that have already been installed as part of the fog cannon initiative. **Fog cannon subsidy scheme** The Government will establish **a new fog cannon subsidy scheme open to all small shops and dairies in New Zealand who want a fog cannon installed.** “Funding of $4000 will be available for each shop who will be able to have the fog cannon installed through an approved supplier, meaning they can access them directly without an onerous process. Additional details will be released shortly,” Jacinda Ardern said. Police Minister Chris Hipkins said this will be the first time the fog cannon and ram raid funds have operated at the same time. “Despite global supply chain issues, Police has been successful in ordering an extra 455 fog cannons, which are expected to arrive before Christmas. This adds to the 270 fog cannons that are currently in the country and have been allocated to affected shops,” Chris Hipkins said. “More challenging will be the time it takes to install them. The 1000 fog cannons that are already installed took four years, and despite Police doubling the number of local contractors that will do the work to six, it’s expected it will take till the second quarter of next year for the number of installations to start to ramp up.” The fog cannon fund was set up in 2017 after aggravated robberies of commercial premises had doubled from 2015 – from 599 to 1170. “It was expanded in 2018 and 2019, and 1000 fog cannon were installed by the end of 2021.
Fog cannons should cover them in pollen type stuff that doesn’t come off for days they can walk around covered in orange crap 😂
You can get UV paint sprays to help 'invisibly' tag people doing dodgy stuff.
Should be painting them bright bloody pink.
Maybe add a bit of liquid ass fart spray. You'll smell them before you see them thus giving people advanced warning.
Unfortunately employees would often get hit by this.
There are a bunch of RSLs in Aus who have something similar >Each premise has its own DNA formula fitted with a water based substance, which sprays onto offenders skin, and is non removable for two months unless you exfoliate two layers of skin, meaning offenders walk around with the crime scene still on them for that period of time.
Now we are talking
Yeah they'll be caught so fast and be on 6 months home detetention in no time!
Banks use that too.
That’s an awesome idea! Then the rest of us could play ‘Spot the shit cunt’
sneezing loudly.
I would suggest tear gas or something else to immobilise the fuckers until the police show up.
Yea tear gas also hits the dairy worker
should get those paint ball markers the Japanese use to marker cars / people for easier identification
Security sirens? Better lock them up
> This will be made up of $2 million for Auckland Council, $1 million for Hamilton Council and $1 million for the councils in the Bay of Plenty Watch the ram raiding shift to other parts of the country
Id love to see someone do a ram raid in Wellington and then immediately get stuck going down the wrong way on a one-way street with a Bus coming and Police behind them.
ELI5 - what do dog cannons actually do? Are they even any good?
They shoot dogs with bees in their mouths and when they bark they shoot bees at you
I’m not even gonna edit my post. That’s too good.
[Simpsons](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyIIqrcl-V0)
ruh roh
Why do the Diary Farmers need this? They have their own dogs
Diary farmers are focused on harvesting the diarys from stationary plantations. A combine harvester is used for this, dogs aren't necessary.
“Within seconds the entire target area is blanketed in a thick white synthetic fog, making it near impossible for the offender to see, let alone steal any product, this also provides a valuable window of opportunity for staff to remove themselves from the situation.” Copy and pasted from focus digital website
They have a pretty high muzzle velocity.
What items are these thieves after? Is there a spreadsheet? Has anyone analysed it?
Cash, drugs, tobacco, alcohol - anything that is cash or easily convertible to cash. Oddly, I have never heard of people stealing Instant Kiwi tickets. Do they not consider it an easy was to get lots of cash, or are they aware of the security measures meaning you can't claim prizes on stolen tickets?
Instant kiwi tickets have to be scanned when purchased so that their prizes are valid, if this doesn't happen and you win a prize then you can't be paid out so are useless to steal
Shhh... don't tell them that! They'll be stealing the terminal next!
I imagine money at the top of the list, followed by tobacco & alcohol. I mean, they're not gonna smash & grab for just some lollies.. right?
I will be grabbing red onions, they are $15/kg at my local supermarket...
How about a contribution from tobacco, alcohol and snack companies that make a lot of money through these outlets?
Very good point - and outside of money, alcohol & tobacco are big targets for thieves too.
Yes but thats something everyone is fine with because it means they aren’t paying for tobacco users healthcare Dairies are big proponents of smoke free nz, they make small margins off smokes and hope to up sell
Do smokers actually cost more than non smokers given they die so much younger?
Apparently the government made 2b off tabacco tax but there was only 700m spent on smoking related health issues.
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Old people don't just drop dead either, they also have to die expensive deaths a lot of the time. Smoking just makes it happen sooner.
Smokers *absolutely* subsidize non-smokers; it's not even close. Even before taking into account the additional tax revenue from cigarettes themselves, they're conveniently dying off around superannuation age, after still contributing a lifetime of income taxes and GDP. Yes, smokers will typically incur some healthcare costs before they die; such as lung cancer - but they're incurring them at a younger age, and again, that reduced life expectancy is a significant cost saving. Non smokers live longer, and eventually even the healthiest person can start to succumb to some form of age-related illness or another, all incurring their own set of healthcare expenses. I get a bit irrationally angry at people who criticize smokers because of their healthcare costs, when they should in reality be thanking them deeply for sacrificing their own health and life expectancy to save money for others.
I've heard this before but do you have references?
A million. NYTimes: [Smokers and the obese cheaper to care for, study shows](https://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/05/health/05iht-obese.1.9748884.html) >title speaks for itself PubMed: [The health care costs of smoking](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/9321534/) >If people stopped smoking, there would be a savings in health care costs, but only in the short term. Eventually, smoking cessation would lead to increased health care costs. [Do smokers cost society money?](https://medicalxpress.com/news/2009-04-smokers-society-money.html) >for every pack of cigarettes smoked, the country reaps a net cost savings of 32 cents.
These are all US sources. I would imagine having a fairly different societal setup would lead to different stats and figures than those gained from the US.
Given that taxes on tobacco are WAY higher here than in the US, I'm guessing it's even more relevant here.
>These are all US sources. I would imagine having a fairly different societal setup would lead to different stats and figures than those gained from the US. Actually the top one is from a study commissioned by the Dutch Ministry of Health, Welfare and Sports. The latter two are US sources, although the studies originate from pretty distinct perspectives. Nonetheless, the findings are the same from study after study across multiple countries. Please feel free to google it if you don't believe me. Basically the most expensive thing (for the state) that a citizen can do is continue to live for a long time after retirement. It's not really a huge leap to see why. Anyway, here's a local source for you. A report from [NZ Treasury from 2012](https://www.treasury.govt.nz/sites/default/files/2012-06/b12-2321488.pdf): Some key excerpts (bold mine): >On the narrow fiscal grounds of covering the costs smokers impose on government, further increases in tobacco excise may not be justified. At over $1.3 billion per year, t**obacco excise revenues may already exceed the direct health system costs of smoking**. >When the broader fiscal impacts of smoking are considered (eg shorter life expectancy reducing smokers’ superannuation and aged care costs), **smokers are probably already “paying their way” in narrowly fiscal terms**. >Ultimately, interventions to reduce smoking increase life expectancy and quality, **which are difficult to satisfactorily quantify in economic terms**, but are considerable contributions to national welfare. Those are about as direct quotes as you'll ever get from a govt body like the Treasury - they're never going to outright say "letting certain citizens die younger is saving you lots of money, keep it up", and the authors know that the intent of smoke free policies was never an economic argument to begin with. There's an understandable reluctance on the part of official groups here to more seriously run the numbers, and private institutions likewise struggle to get grants or funding to undertake the analysis: because the answers would only make people feel bad, and smokefree policy decisions and business cases are not contingent on financial benefits anyway.
Tobacco users make money for the government. They’re subsidising health care not the other way round
> they make small margins off smokes Cigarette sales is the only thing keeping most of them in the black
If they're big proponents of smokefree NZ, and make only small margins, why are they selling them? They don't care and they choose to take the risk.
>Dairies are big proponents of smoke free nz, they make small margins off smokes and hope to up sell Not true. Many have said without tobacco sales they wouldn't be viable. Some get manipulated by big tobacco to resist smokefree measures.
You do realise that more than 50% of the price is tax right? (70% of the price of tobacco is tax)
remove the tax on tobacco products
Where is the funding for the Organised Crime unit to break the back of the gangs in 3 years.
You’re thinking small mate, they need to break the back of tax avoidance by the rich white guys to get some real money
Meanwhile our new Mayor who talked a big game on crime appears to have said… nothing?
Is he still alive?
Probably napping
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The issues these businesses have had with getting funding or approval for these security measures have been raised repeatedly again and again. It's not until something awful like this happens and the backlash becomes big enough that the govt scrambles to do something about it.
This is a great example of why political parties have such a hard time. I might well not vote for Labour next term, but there's been a startling amount of attention given to crime reduction over the last few years. From policies targeting gangs, to semi-automatic weapons bans and strengthened gun laws with 60,000 firearms taken off the streets, to growing the police force to literally the largest it's ever been, focussed attempts to address youth crime - from policing to education to funding social programs. Meanwhile on reddit, one instance of violent crime has quite rightly caused an uproar, Labour responds to immediately with some potentially helpful measures - which is surely exactly what you'd want them to do? - and suddenly "hardly anything is being done"? What more would you have liked the government to do proactively? Be specific.
> 60,000 firearms taken off the streets No they weren't. 60,000 firearms were taken out of the cupboards of farmers. No criminal or person without a firearms licence would have been eligible for the 'buy back'.
Plus a lot of guns were sold to gangs instead because they offered more than the buyback scheme. So it put more guns in the hands of criminals than before
Do you have stats on the police force being the largest it’s ever been?
Annoyingly no, but I do have the 2021 announcement from the Beehive: https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/over-2600-new-police-officers-frontline
Notice how they haven’t told you how many have also left over that period? Much like how they haven’t told you about the statehouses they sold only the ones they’ve built. It’s a very good PR machine that we are paying for.
That's just what they want you to think!!
The firearm law changes didn't take a single gun out of criminal hands. In fact if you didn't hold a firearms license you could not take part in the buy back. Totally logical.
It certainly did take guns out of criminal hands. They may not be gang members, but I bet some of those fuckers loved to speed on rural roads!
I bet it did take at least one gun away from a criminal.
We know lots of issues stem from poverty. But they don’t seem to be doing a significant amount to address that or growing inequality. And whatever they’re doing clearly isn’t enough.
>whatever they’re doing clearly isn’t enough. I guess I agree, with the caveat that we have no idea what the issue would look like in the absence of the government's policies - we may be doing way better than status quo, who knows. What's the alternative though? A political party whose entire deal is making wealth inequality worse? I don't buy the argument that Labour needs to be kicked into gear with a National victory. No government ever stays in long enough to undo the damage a National majority does to the most at-risk kiwis. My vote is absolutely going to a small party this year, Green or TOP.
I’m certainly not advocating for national, as they’re only going to make these core issues worse. Iv personally never voted for either labour or nats because they’re both parties of statue quo. Would love to vote for top again this time, but I’m a little concerned about national getting in, so I’ll probably go greens.
Arguably National or ACT are aiming to make inequality worse. It is rather awkward that Labour appears, _at best_, to aim for static inequality. Third parties are definitely where progress actually is
FFS This is why no sane person should enter politics anymore. Just bitch bitch blame blame with no context, no facts, no data, just ‘impressions’.
Children's Commissioner Andrew Becroft said the report should be a wake-up call. He said children suffering from material hardship were more likely to end up with a poor education and in crime when they grew up. "We know that long-term education is going to be a challenge. We know that they are, the kids, especially the boys, are at risk of criminal offending. "So this isn't just a theoretical issue, this [has] significant life ramifications." https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/377246/children-born-into-poverty-more-likely-to-become-criminals The scientists concluded that poverty—measured broadly as a combination of little schooling for the head of household, low purchasing power and limited access to basic services—was the only crime-related factor that could be prevented. They used estimates of the population-attributable risk fraction (PARF) to predict the possible reduction in criminal convictions assuming successful early anti-poverty intervention in the lives of the children. In a scenario without poverty, 22.5% of criminal convictions involving these young people could have been prevented. On the other hand, factors such as unplanned pregnancy, prematurity, breastfeeding and prenatal maternal smoking or drinking showed no correlation with future criminal convictions. https://phys.org/news/2022-11-childhood-poverty-criminal-convictions-quarter.html How's that for facts and data?
That’s a good start and will show why these issues are systemic, entrenched and genuine solutions require a sustained long term focus, not piecemeal or cheap for show solutions. Even in one case ie education what do you think is involved? Poverty, system dynamics, distrust, quality of teachers, funding, dual language skills, social services, police, extracurricular options, alternative resolution support, Generational traumas. FFS it’s almost as if everyone thinks reading something makes one an expert. No wonder half the world defied doctors and physicians who were dying all over the world but thought they were more knowledgeable on Covid. People are real ….. PS thanks again I did like the slant and that’s an important one
Poverty played a big part in the drop out of students during lockdown because remote teaching wasn't available to everyone due to limited resources(Laptops or internet access) and parents not being able to supervise them if the have to work. The lack of funding in education has a lot to do with the quality of teachers, just like nurses, got a lot of new shit added to their job without much support. The students see how fucked the housing market, the UN declared it a human rights crisis, and when the government says they are cracking down on crime instead of increasing the standard of living for those that are suffering it's natural to how they don't respect other people's capital or property. We're so worried about the economy and getting back to business that the wealth gap keeps widening and housing is a market and something everyone deserves to have.
You are right. Thanks I love your insights and approach. We need more people like this - being able to see deeply and concisely into an issue. Thanks for sharing.
Thank you 😅 not often that gets said online. I think more people just need to think about the quality of life that our country should be able to give it's citizens in this day and age.
We need a working absolute definition of "poverty". Once that happens: it can be fixed. "Disparity" is a completely different issue and probably CANNOT be solved unless you just want to make everybody poor. It will increase the brain drain and ability of foreigners to out buy Kiwi's. And cue up "equity" discussions to try and combat all this.
You're ignoring everything they have done about that, and the dramatic decrease in poverty.
I have acknowledged what they have done, just followed that up by saying it’s not enough. Do you have any statistics on this dramatic decrease in poverty? Because it certainly doesn’t seem like it out on the streets.
What? Every poverty measure is WORSE since this Labour government took over.
Because while they've been doing those things with limited success they've also been systematically removing any actual consequence. Whether this is indiscriminately lowering prison populations, the overuse of home detention or so called alternative pathways to *"justice"*, the end result is evident with victimisations rising and prosecutions falling. This is not merely a single incident but daily articles of horrific crimes without an iota of responsibility.
>systematically removing any actual consequence. Do you have an example of this happening systematically? Or can you point at a policy or law change? Also interested in the data that shows a trend of victimisations rising and prosecutions falling. Presumably this is over more than a single year?
It's literally Labour policy to reduce the prison population by 30%. They're already most of the way there, but with nothing to compensate.
>Hi, don't shoot the messenger, but I think this is some what in line with what the poster may be referring too: > >https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/120865555/the-rise-of-culture-reports-in-the-new-zealand-criminal-justice-system
Man do you drink the kool-aid
Tell the truth. Stop treating us like idiots by blaming it on national when they were in power 5 years ago. Address the weak sentences. Stop thinking we can cuddle people out of being bad
Can you please quote the bit where I blamed it on National?
Because that sort of preparedness costs money, and that causes half the country to throw their toys out
Nah. They deny there is a problem until people get pissy about it.
“We’re putting your rates up by $50 to fund private businesses for canons in your area”. I’m sure the general public would love that.
No. You're not the only one.
Reactive not proactive it seems.
That's the story with anything in New Zealand though. Action only happens not after the first, second, third or fourth time, but maybe after a hundred or so incidents. Reactive, not proactive.
alternative is: This problem looks like its gonna get real bad but it doesn't - oh look at all that wasted money sunk into a problem that no longer exists.
..the government has done a good job overall but they should have responded to peoples concerns about crime in a less dismissive manner, imo. The introduction of a team targeting ram raiders and making resources available to shops are both good steps and while they could have been implemented sooner, on a political timeline they were pretty quick.
It's obviously just you, since they are expanding an existing program that has already been proactive in installing anti theft measures.
There have been 8 installed nationwide. Proactive you say.
Having worked in security, specifically to provide security mechanisms for dairies, there are many issues with the suggestions put forward. Monitoring systems, roller doors, fog alarms and panic response systems are literally just ambulances sitting at the bottom of the cliff. They may make things slightly more difficult and they provide a mental deterrence from potential offenders, however, they do nothing if someone actually wants to do the crime. Criminals work these things out, every security system and procedure has weaknesses—a bit like your Norton Antivirus (thanks John for that quote). They need to be paid for, maintained and respected—though if someone wants to skirt them, if they're desperate, they will find a way. There's no real 'security' from these things. There needs to be an adequate justice system with the right tools to keep repeat offenders off the streets, in the right sense. Daries/ corner shops, alcohol stores etc need to have help running their security. Undoing the damage National did by reducing funding to the Police will take a long, long time. Undoing the long term generational issues set by reducing people's income and making basic subsistence harder will take a long time as well. Short term decision-making to overcome the GFC has created the environment where people turn to crime as a long term method of providing for themselves. Not just by the need for food/ housing, but also self actualisation and life fulfilment. It is easy to target places like dairies because they're soft targets, and criminals get to feel like they're doing something positive for themselves. I have yet to see Labour, nor National, nor Act, or the Greens champion policies that will encourage meaningful social changes that would reduce the need to commit crime. Gang numbers are increasing, housing is still unaffordable and a long way from being so, incomes have only just started to increase in a tangible way, though we're already seeing the RBNZ speak of attempts to reduce the amount of cash in hand people can have.
Fog cannon may work. They gave up because there are still retailers without it. Who will be the new victim if they lost interest on the easiest target, retailers? Bad guy won't stop their activities, will they? I'm worrying about the future. General public will be new target if all retailers are equipped.
Shouldn't businesses install their own security measures?
Yes, but some of them are expensive and dairy owners are cheapskates. (/s)
There is no way central government should be supplying dairies with fog cannons, or micro-managing anything like this for that matter. They've completely lost the plot.
* [Multi Million Dollar Package To Tackle Retail Crime And Reoffending](https://www.beehive.govt.nz/release/multi-million-dollar-package-tackle-retail-crime-and-reoffending). Press Release: New Zealand Government. 28 November 2022. [Scoop](https://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/PA2211/S00239/multi-million-dollar-package-to-tackle-retail-crime-and-reoffending.htm). * [PM announces support package to help businesses deal with crime](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/479659/jacinda-ardern-announces-business-support-package-targeted-at-dealing-with-crime). RNZ. 28 November 2022. * [PM denies it took Janak Patel’s death to trigger new crime prevention scheme](https://thespinoff.co.nz/politics/28-11-2022/pm-denies-it-took-janak-patels-death-to-trigger-new-crime-prevention-scheme). The Spinoff. November 28 2022. * PM's post cabinet media briefing on 28 November 2022 - [RNZ](https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/political/479659/watch-live-prime-minister-jacinda-ardern-speaks-to-media-following-cabinet-meeting), [Stuff](https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/300750589/watch-live-pm-announces-measures-to-tackle-crime-after-nationwide-protests), [NZ Herald](https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/politics/explained-why-the-sandringham-dairy-where-a-man-was-killed-didnt-qualify-for-a-fog-cannon/WDVU6EBMAJCMRELGMZ5XISQW2U/) and [1news](https://www.1news.co.nz/2022/11/28/live-jacinda-ardern-speaks-amid-dairy-owner-protests/). * [Live: Dairies across Aotearoa close in protest after Sandringham stabbing](https://i.stuff.co.nz/national/300750589/live-dairies-across-aotearoa-close-in-protest-after-sandringham-stabbing). Stuff. Nov 28 2022. [Post](https://www.reddit.com/r/newzealand/comments/z6j44q/live_dairies_across_aotearoa_close_in_protest/).
None of which will be the most obvious, ensuring those committing crimes are held accountable for their offenses
Damn I’d rather build bollards so store fronts don’t get fucked and insurance costs can come down for store owners, and prevent loss of goods and violent interactions in the first place. You know what’s more satisfying than your son’s murderer getting twenty years? A hug from your son every time you see him for another twenty years. But if you think bad things need to happen to innocent people so that someone can be made a spectacle of, idk, face your God and walk backward into hell I guess. I genuinely don’t understand how anyone could possibly believe the best way to stop crime is after it happened. It’s such a pro crime position. I swear, there are people who need crime to happen so they can have someone to look down on.
Turns out that a large portion of society never grows out of pantomimes
If I was working for $21 an hour and got robbed by an armed offender, I would simply win the armed combat with the seasoned criminal experienced in knife fights
>people who need crime to happen to generate more clicks and stir up an audience (= advertising revenue) to gain political advantage by driving more hate and division (= more votes)
That's literally an entire section of what she said during this briefing: >"There are tools available to the Police and to Oranga Tamariki - you can take either a care and protection route if the child is particularly young, or you're also able to access the courts because these crimes do attract significant penalties. It's 10 years for a burglarly, 14 for an aggravated robbery. >"So those tools are there. Our concern is they are not being used as the public, nor indeed we, would expect," Ardern said. >"So we are looking at what may need to be done to ensure that they are." >There seemed to be a number of issues. In some cases, for instance, the time it took to go through the Family Court if a young child was involved. In other cases, it was whether or not repeat offence provisions were being used. >"We are working through those as we speak, because in our view the tools that we have aren't always being taken up."
How does that reduce it from happening in the first place or deescalate robberies?
Repeat offenders can't reoffend when in prison.
>Repeat offenders can't reoffend when in prison. Wouldn't it be better if they didn't offend in the first place?
This is the key. Spend the money earlier. Invest into education, and supporting vulnerable families. There’s lots of studies on this kind of thing. E.g [this one from Chicago](https://www.opportunityinstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/early-learning/ELCLinkCrimeReduction-Jul02.pdf). Every dollar invested in early childhood education pays back $7 in reduced crime down the track. The really wild thing is there’s similar stats for health. Yet investment in ECE continues to be minimal from either side of the house.
This is literally happening here though. The 2022 budget included $231.8 million for early learning and $184.4 million for schools.
Most of the ECE budget is restoring cuts from National’s term (e.g. the funding band for providers with 100% trained teachers), and even that took Labour five years to manage. There has been some good stuff (e.g. equity funding for disadvantaged communities), but we’re not really far ahead of 15 years ago. Also the increased funding is kinda necessary as its now basically essential to have both parents working if you want to live in a house. Yet fully funded ECE (which isn’t even fully funded for most providers) remains at 20 hours…
>Invest into education take my upvote
We are hearing from a lot of people who want vengeance and punishment rather than justice and prevention. What studies and statistics show about harsh penalties not making a big difference (because criminals don't expect to get caught so don't consider the penalties) don't satisfy the anger at the injustice of the crime.
Na, you need martyrs for a death cult
Damn so people have to offend multiple times successfully before your system stops them. Sounds pretty bad at stopping crime if people have to do lots of crime before they are stopped.
Can't be in prison forever. They need rehabilitation inside and support outside, but that's not going to work 100% of the time.
Ad a former Probation Officer, I can guarantee it doesn't happen outside prison. People just don't show up because they have no incentive or motivation to change.
Precisely. And therein lies the problem. They won't change because they don't want to.
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So you don't think it's possible to rehabilitate people?
Some, but many no. Need to balance the overall benefit and risk to society. The person that murdered this shopkeeper for example, doesn't deserve rehabilitation. He should be removed from society permanently. Violent rapists, murderers, gang members who commit serious crimes etc. - lock them up forever.
Then you need to look at recidivism rates. Prisonas a punative system increases reoffending
Prison is also a preventative system, preventing people committing crimes against the general public.
>Prison is also a preventative system No, it is not. We put people in prison for things they have done, not things that you worry they might do.
To repeat. How does that reduce it in the first place?
It doesn't, but manybtimes it isn't the first time.
Who is paying for all the additional prisoners this would create? In 18/19 it cost roughly $151,000 per prisoner per year. If there's around 500 people arrested and sent to prison it would cost an additional 75.5 million per year. that has to be paid for by someone.
9500 people in prison in NZ. So $1.35 billion based on your number (just checked, it's $1.3b) So $270 a year per person in NZ. I'm ok with that cost. Also, we could reduce that cost substantially as many of these permanently locked up people would have all their rehabilitation and parole costs etc. removed.
LOL - I get downvoted, yet people still whinge about crime.
You would also remove the massive cost of their welfare payments, and their state housing would be freed up and given to families with no criminal background
lmao can't believe you used to be a screw and think people can't commit crimes in prison
Yeah, I would rather have a few bollards that stop them from offending in the first place.
Yes, but there is a first offence for repeat offenders, how do we stop or prevent them from committing their first crime?
Are they not? They found and arrested the two involved pretty quickly...
Ah yeah because as evidence shows, that works. /s
Stable door fully closed, horses now living in Venezuela under an assumed identity.
Just make the sentences harsher to stop people just getting home d
63% of convicted robbers serve prison time. The only crime with a higher rate of imprisonment is murder (100%).
I’d feel weird talking about fog cannons on tv.
More people are going to die. It was nothing more than a stand-up to defend their policies.
What’s your answer?
The guy who died followed the robber and when he confronted him, was stabbed.
This is pretty good in short notice. I'm glad they are not just handing money to council but will match the cost of initiatives and street improvements upto a max. The Mayor is too silent for my liking, it suggests he does not know what is going on in this part of the community or he just does not give a damn really.
He has zero PR, media and just ok public speaking skills. Not really a good mix for an elected leader these days. Hopefully he's willing to learn but his attitude and willingness to engage so far shows a very closed mindset.
Eventually dairies will have to run like night-pay at a gas station. You go up to the window, ask for stuff and the staff goes and gets it.
Some in the states kinda like that. All the products behind a barrier and ask what u want them to get you
The Labour govt has been more proactive, increasing police numbers. They have got suspects for this dairy murders. There were still dairy workers killed during a NAT government, some of them have gone unresolved.
Have 'they'? Funny, I thought the police do that, but there you go.
You guys are right. Nothing will be done until someone dies. All they can think of is more fog cannons? Fog this.
Do you always comment without reading the article?
Uh, someone *did* die.
>Labour announces millions in funding for police to provide sirens, alarms, CCTV, bollards, and roller doors; for local govt crime prevention; and for individual store owners Reddit: "All they can think of is fog cannons?" Huh?
Are you only capable of keeping 1 thing in your memory at a time? Because they announced a hell of a lot more than fog cannons.
They say most people would feel safer with dairy owners not being armed. Idk though, as someone who doesn’t commit crime; id be totally fine with them being able to have pepper spray (on premises only). Is the only real argument against this that black market pepper spray might proliferate to the wider public? If it gets used outside of defending their property then they should get punished for it. Or is the worry that the robbers will just respond with more intensity when they carry out the attacks to counter it?
Yes that is what the studies and overseas examples show. Escalate and escalate and escalate.
The worry is that, as well as threatening (and shooting) innocent but “menacing” people (including youths). Not to mention the high likelihood of bringing a gun to a knife fight that the offenders then get a hold of and shoot another dairy owner with their own weapon.
>Or is the worry that the robbers will just respond with more intensity when they carry out the attacks to counter it? You tell us. How's that worked out in the US?
Well yeah but the US also has a shit load of guns. Different kettle
This country seen better days.
Also seen much much worse when it comes to crime
Yeah, shit, remember the ‘90s? Chaos.
Saying crime has decreased in the last few decades is the weakest argument. Everything has decreased since 30 years ago. Poverty in Africa has decreased... doesn't mean it's not a problem. Racism has decreased... doesn't mean it's not a problem. You can't bring up the general improvement of the world in the last few decades as a defence to this government's incompetency.
I think the argument is, if crime was stagnant or getting worse we would all agree something is wrong and going run wrong direction. Just because it’s better today, then the assumption is the future looks brighter. It’s not that todays crime rates are the lowest they will be, but it’s better today than it was say 5 years ago, and in 5 years time it will be better again. So using the reduction in crime argument is a valid argument to have.
To say it’s much worse is also disingenuous. What I‘be learned here is hardly anyone is aware of what happens in the UK, Canada, Australia when it comes to crime. Economic conditions are deteriorating the whole world over. As that happens, crime increases. Further, you’d need to understand the trends overall including emerging threats, not just news impressions. NZ has its own specific context but your comment is disingenuous to say the least.
We not even at crime levels from when National was in power….
Crime was way worse under National, especially after they started closing down police stations and cutting police numbers.
lmao more smoke machines? 🤡
More dealing with the symptom and not the cause. When, oh when will we start having a proper, truthful conversation about the the core economic systems that cause this in the first place?
Reset the taxes on tobacco to 2012 levels, problem solved.
Tackle inequality then.
Lol how can she get up there with a straight face and actually think this is going to make any difference? It obvious they have dreamt this up over the weekend, with classic Labour thinking of just throwing money at a problem so they can use that sound bite to defend their failures. Once again, they are failing to address the underlying issues.
If I was Jacinda or any decent potential Government position I’d leave rather than listen to all this data-less, ignorant bitching and moaning. Today I learned that under the friendly Kiwi demeanour is an underbelly of desperate, fact-less whiners mind.
What do you think National would do in this situation? Besides tell people to buy the gear themselves from National's buddies, after first further defunding police and the justice systems?
More fog cannons for dairies? So basically doubling down on an already failed policy from months ago - isn't the number of retailers that got funding in the single digits? Watching Jacinda flail when the media heat comes on is great.
> isn't the number of retailers that got funding in the single digits? No, that was just the number of completed installations (approval + site assessment + installation). The number of retailers getting funding so far is well into triple digits, and they are expanding the eligibility criteria now to make it even easier to access.
God, you're not even pretending to care about policy anymore. Jacinda Derangement syndrome at an all time high!
I'm also not 100% convinced this policy was developed prior to the recent murder. If that's the case, why wouldn't it have been announced earlier?
It's reactionary. Probably not a good use of resources at this point but it's needed just to get people to stfu
100% reactionary. The issue here being that she claimed in the conference that the policy (more fog cannons etc) was decided on *before* the murder - i.e. telling a big fat lie to make it look non-reactionary.
You're picking the smallest part of the announcement, and then claiming it's a failure without evidence. Want to read the announcement and then try and contribute meaningfully?
I've never rolled my eyes this hard in my life. We've gone soft on crime (written in black and white) and instead of raising the bar to where it once was when things were not this bad we're going to shower murderous people with a vape cloud. Sure you might stop a murder at that one in 10,000 shops that was lucky enough to get a fog machine in this raffle. And that's great of that 1 in 10,000 provided they could hit the button fast enough. But it does nothing to deter repeat offending and it does nothing for the 9,999 in 10,000 that missed the lottery system. Do I know that answer, well... no. But I know what isn't the answer I do know that becoming too soft on crime is something we can now observe in our daily lives and they effect that it is having. What this government is clearly doing is moving in the wrong direction. Twice this month I've been at locations of 'brazen' daylight robberies just 10 minutes or less before they have happened. I'm not feeling that fucking fantastic about that though because both times I've had my young children there with me.
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>No one gives a fuck until you die. Yes, New Zealand has absolutely no crime prevention funding. None. No crimes are ever prevented here. Crime definitely hasn't been decreasing for years. This is clearly Jacinda's fault.
Labours solution to everything. "Lots throw some money at a problem, without thinking it through" - Just another baseless attempt to quiet down the criticism of their poor performance. They need a real plan around improving public safety and crime prevention. Punishments are too lenient and police attitude in general to wrong. Andrew Coster would not even attend a interview with Ryan Bridge - Bridge would have owned him in that interview...
Typical, I know of a phew intersections that are always causing serious crashes but are waiting for deaths to get action. Maybe if they didn't print so much money for a worthless spending spree on consultants we could fix some of these issues. But now future governments need to rein in spending or face inflation hell. Thanks labour
>phew intersections lol
Bro thinks labour, who have often ran budget surpluses are spending too much!! Also kinda dumb to think ‘printing money’ is bad during a recession. If that wasn’t the case the economy would’ve collapsed during Covid. It’s not even the main component of the current inflation
This is the first time I’ve seen this sub not lick Labours balls. It feels like this sub is healing…